Scottish Vote: What happens to the Union Flag if?

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Originally Posted by PAT303

So how does Scotland benefit from all this?. Pat

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Great question Pat, well asked ....


Answer hopefully transcends emotive.

The reason is there .... just do a bit of reading.

I don't just mean ancient history ... pull up economic and strategic facts RE: England Vs the other British Countries ... The others weren't there for pleasant conversation and they still aren't there today for those reasons. Do you get what I'm saying?


Have a good read Pat ...


Cheers,


Kev.

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Originally Posted by Brian Hjelm

You mean the Harland and Wolfe that is owned by Nordskib, a Norwegian company? The Olson family.

Not much industry left in England either after Marg Thatcher's fell and burn assault on English industry. Do you know what all the great engineering companies of the north of England and the Clyde have in common? They no longer exist.

And the mealy-mouthed two faced perfidious poms have a damn cheek calling it an "Act of Union". They invaded, defeated, suppressed, and oppressed the Scots. I am sure the Scots have long memories

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You're probably correct about Wolfe, but it doesn't matter who the owners are, the workers in Belfast would be Northern Ireland, UK citizens. In the same way the workers are English in the JLR factories owned by Indians or at the Ford plants owned by Yanks it is paid work.

I'm sure that the Scots have long memories off the English, the dispossession and what was tantamount to ethnic cleansing of some highland clans. One only has to consider the Scots with surnames of Brown, Green etc, these were the highland Jacobean clansmen who fled to France and changed their family name to prevent being tracked down by the English as traitors.

Good grief!!!!!!!!!!!! Scottish union heavies into Union-busting :eek: well I never...:eek: I'm waiting for Sen. Doug Cameron to make a PRONOUNCEMENT... he's been very quiet:wasntme: (stand by for incoming....:twisted: at least our WA cousins haven't openly canvassed secession/...yet :-)

On a little more serious note, a tour of St Paul's cathedral in London is well worthwhile... Every notable who pillaged, plundered and subjugated in the name of the "King/Queen/Empire" is either buried there or has a memorial plaque... I came away with a different perspective. Then we went to Ireland where my forefathers were dispossessed of valuable lands and left to starve... guess I have some sympathy for the Scots perspective...

Mind you, we are better off in Oz that Arthur Phillip arrived a week before La Perouse...just look at the tragedy of the Congo and other African nations formerly colonised by the French vs those colonised by the English...not perfect but less fractured.

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And the mealy-mouthed two faced perfidious poms have a damn cheek calling it an "Act of Union". They invaded, defeated, suppressed, and oppressed the Scots. I am sure the Scots have long memories

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Which Act of Union are you talking about? Remember, if you will, that England took a Scottish king, not the other way round. And when the Stuarts were booted out, more Scots fought to throw them out than did to keep them.

You should also look at the Darien scheme, which was a comprehensive Scottish failure to acquire an empire. It ruined Scotland's economy and Scotland accepted union as the price for England to bail them out. Not an unreasonable trade, looked at pragmatically.

And while you're making ill-judged statements about perfidious Albion, remember also that the clearances were done by Scottish landowners, not the English. And Culloden was the result of an attempt by the Italian drunk, Charles Edward Stuart, to claim the thrones of England, Scotland and Ireland. And the suppression of the highlands was driven by lowland Scots, central belt merchants and landowners who had joined the English adn European economy and adopted mercantile habits.

Not all one way traffic. Just a pity that so many Scots seem to feel the need to keep fighting Bannockburn.

Of course I speak as someone with English and Scottish grandparents, who has lived for many years in England and in Scotland, and is married to a Scottish Highlander. I'm well across the topic.

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

They get to re-build Hadrian's Wall and keep the royalties from North Sea oil and gas production, but will likely lose the military and naval bases as well as further shipbuilding contracts for the Royal Navy.

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I doubt that on many fronts ....


There is probably F all North Sea Gas and Oil left ... strategically Scotland would not support a common cause?....oh that's a crazy idea ... of course they would!


Like we don't have a US military presence in England, Australia, etc, etc .... Maybe not the best approach but WTF? "Oh I'm sorry, Scotland you chose independence ,,, we can't be friends anymore ...." Seriously?


I really don't get this at all.

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.

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You wouldn't be a Pom by any chance ... just saying?


So if as you suggest Scotland has no value ... what's the fuss all about? ;-)

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I'm sure that the Scots have long memories off the English, the dispossession and what was tantamount to ethnic cleansing of some highland clans. One only has to consider the Scots with surnames of Brown, Green etc, these were the highland Jacobean clansmen who fled to France and changed their family name to prevent being tracked down by the English as traitors.

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Actually it was more like the Campbells tracking down the MacDonalds and others. Like I said elsewhere, more Scots fought to get rid of the Jacobites than did to keep them.

And the clearances, like I also said elsewhere, were done by people with names like McLeod, Sinclair and so on. Scots people, landowners who had figured out that the highlanders were (a) an embarrassment, and (b) worth less than the sheep which could otherwise be kept on the land.

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Originally Posted by garrycol

They have been fighting and dieing for this for over a thousand years - simply the right of independence and self determination.

After independence they can determine what sort of relationship they have with GB and the rest of the world. I am sure that arrangements can be put in place with GB that allow economic and other issues remain, sorted amended.

If they do not vote for independence then they will be part of England forever.

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Good points but not true in total.


If Scotland says no, they can still vote again later ... in years to come. If they vote YES they cannot reverse....if they win.


Even a lose would surely be a 'wake up to the stupid' that the under-dog countries want more say in their future.

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Originally Posted by Celtoid

You wouldn't be a Pom by any chance ... just saying?

So if as you suggest Scotland has no value ... what's the fuss all about? ;-)

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No I'm not a pom and I'm not at all saying that Scotland has no value, however most of the heavy industry that once existed in Scotland no longer exists save the shipbuilding etc for the RN. If that were to go what remains is small scale shipbuilding and small industries, farming, forestry plus North Sea oil and gas. Financial institutions can move their headquarters at the stroke of a pen so there is no guarantee that institutions like LLoyds Bank etc will remain in Edinburg.

What will remain is probably insufficient industry to support the costs of a fully independent nation. I wish and hope it isn't so for the sake of the Scots, it is however all up to the Scots themselves. No doubt, if this vote fails, there will be a subsequent one, years maybe decades down the track.

As I said it will be interesting to watch and I fully support people exercising their democratic rights what ever way they choose.

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Originally Posted by Lotz-A-Landies

So you don't think the current Jacobites will remember the Duke of Cumberland? :D

Without royalties from the North Sea fields, Scotland will have very little industry to pay the taxes required for infrastructure and social services in Scotland. Very few large shipbuilding still exists on the Clyde, mostly that work now goes to Korea, even Cunard is using French shipbuilders, so the remaining work is the Royal Navy. If there is no agreement for a shared military between what will be two soverign nations, then you can hardly assume that the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland will be contracting Shipbuilding to the Clyde when Harland and Wolfe in Belfast could step in to the work and employ UK citizens instead of Scots.

It may come to naught, but it will be an interesting referendum to watch.

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So why the Froth and Lather then do you think?