Scottish Vote: What happens to the Union Flag if?

I quite like a dark blue flag.
We'll put the southern cross on it because that represents where we are. Oh, and a star with seven points on it six points representing a original states of federation and the seventh point representing the territories of Australia.
Then, we'll have a Union Jack on it to represent our history as six British colonies.

I'd be happy with that.

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

An interesting comment I saw many years ago that has not been raised in this discussion - "If Scotland had not been in union with the rest of the UK, there would never have been a Labour government in Westminster". John

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Both Blair governments had a majority without the Scottish MPs.

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Originally Posted by Celtoid

There is probably F all North Sea Gas and Oil left ... strategically Scotland would not support a common cause?....oh that's a crazy idea ... of course they would!


Like we don't have a US military presence in England, Australia, etc, etc .... Maybe not the best approach but WTF? "Oh I'm sorry, Scotland you chose independence ,,, we can't be friends anymore ...." Seriously?


I really don't get this at all.

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The rump UK would treat Scotland a bit like it treats Norway or Denmark. Some other country, not too far away, on the small side financially and in terms of population, not threatening.

But we won't support its currency, or build our warships there, or let them send their goods through England tax free. We will welcome their banks and corporates as they set up their headquarters in London or Manchester. Helensburgh and Faslane will close of course, given the Scots don't want nukes on their territory, so those people will have to find jobs. Can probably tuck those things into Milford Haven or somewhere like. We'll not protect their fisheries, they'll need their own navy. We'll not administer their social services, they'll have to set up their own bureaucracy to do that.

Right now Westminster has to worry about Scotland and its people. If there's a vote to leave the UK, Westminster won't have that worry, since Scottish voters won't count for anything any more. On the other hand, bringing Scottish central belt jobs into northern England, that works very well for Westminster.

It's going to be fascinating to watch.

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Originally Posted by Celtoid

The Highland Clearances ... yeah 'Scottish' Landowners with Redcoats in support... just look up the diaries and stories and look at the paintings and decide how Scottish these people were.

Yeah, you're well across the topic ....

Neither you nor I can ascertain the mindset of the ancient Scottish Kings or people ... they may have been happy to sit with what they had ... they were not a Germanic based Culture like the Post-Roman Brits and whilst there are similarities in their genesis, they were and still are a very different people.

I don't think it will happen, as in secession .... but there is no altruism in England's concern ... England is scared of the hurt that it will feel.

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I just picked a couple of bits of your stream of consciousness.

Yes, the Scottish landowners - they were Scottish, down to their name and kinship - decided that the English way of life was better. So they dressed and acted like them but were still Scottish. It's just that the highland Scottish culture and way of life had met its end, outlived its uefulness. A bit like aboriginal culture here, in Australia, today. It happens. Get used to it.

And yes, I lived in Scotland, highlands and lowlands, for long enough, and I've enough Scottish blood in me, and a highland Scottish wife, and Scottish family, and so on. So yes, I am across the topic.

And actually, the ancient Scots were Irish more than anything else. The Picts - the original ancient inhabitants, post ice age, were wiped out or absorbed, nobody is quite sure. And given the Norse invasions of the 5th to 11th centuries, much of Scotland (east coast, north coast, west coast and the Isles) had more in common with eastern England than it did with south and central Scotland.

England wouldn't feel the impact in any significant way. We're talking about around 5 million people in Scotland and around 58 million in the remainder of the UK. And once the Scottish banks and major corporates relocate, as they have by now said they will, it starts to work quite well for England.

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Originally Posted by London Boy

The rump UK would treat Scotland a bit like it treats Norway or Denmark. Some other country, not too far away, on the small side financially and in terms of population, not threatening.

But we won't support its currency, or build our warships there, or let them send their goods through England tax free. We will welcome their banks and corporates as they set up their headquarters in London or Manchester. Helensburgh and Faslane will close of course, given the Scots don't want nukes on their territory, so those people will have to find jobs. Can probably tuck those things into Milford Haven or somewhere like. We'll not protect their fisheries, they'll need their own navy. We'll not administer their social services, they'll have to set up their own bureaucracy to do that.

Right now Westminster has to worry about Scotland and its people. If there's a vote to leave the UK, Westminster won't have that worry, since Scottish voters won't count for anything any more. On the other hand, bringing Scottish central belt jobs into northern England, that works very well for Westminster.

It's going to be fascinating to watch.

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So you're speaking for England now ... you're the decision maker? If that's the general sentiment no wonder Scotland is pushing so hard to break free!


Hey, I have no issue with what you say ... happy to see Scotland dumb and poor like they always were .... yeah right!


So why is Cameron "begging the Scots"? Apparently he doesn't share your point of view ... neither do the banks and most of the British Parliament ..... go figure!

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Originally Posted by London Boy

I just picked a couple of bits of your stream of consciousness.

Yes, the Scottish landowners - they were Scottish, down to their name and kinship - decided that the English way of life was better. So they dressed and acted like them but were still Scottish. It's just that the highland Scottish culture and way of life had met its end, outlived its uefulness. A bit like aboriginal culture here, in Australia, today. It happens. Get used to it.

And yes, I lived in Scotland, highlands and lowlands, for long enough, and I've enough Scottish blood in me, and a highland Scottish wife, and Scottish family, and so on. So yes, I am across the topic.

And actually, the ancient Scots were Irish more than anything else. The Picts - the original ancient inhabitants, post ice age, were wiped out or absorbed, nobody is quite sure. And given the Norse invasions of the 5th to 11th centuries, much of Scotland (east coast, north coast, west coast and the Isles) had more in common with eastern England than it did with south and central Scotland.

England wouldn't feel the impact in any significant way. We're talking about around 5 million people in Scotland and around 58 million in the remainder of the UK. And once the Scottish banks and major corporates relocate, as they have by now said they will, it starts to work quite well for England.

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Ah Dál Riata (Dalriada) ... The Scoti (Roman word for the Northern Irish Tribes migrating and settling in the Western Isles of Scotland and then the Mainland .... ) hence the word Scot and Scotland.


Picti (Roman again for the painted or coloured people) ... the Picts ... blah, blah, blah, blah ....


Dude, I know my History pretty well ... we could talk this through, as have historians, till the cows come home.


"get used to it" ... you are on fire tonight .... Want to insult the Slavs, Māoris, Paki's, etc, etc (apologies for using those terms ... point being) and other races that you dislike or have an issue with? In fact you probably think Aussies are in that mix too, dirty Colonials!


Yup, happy to get used to it ... oh what is it, used to what? .... lots of intelligent individuals like yourself obviously feel hurt by the underclass that they had being trying to save for 700 years plus (that's obviously tongue and cheek) ... and look how they've treated you now! Not Happy that Scottish Regiments in the British Army were feared beyond reason, and died helping London (more like slaughtered as were a lot of Colonials)! They're not happy about the fact that Billions of dollars went into and are still flowing into the British coffers through Scotland and the locals have no say or benefit. Scots probably aren't smart enough to do all these things without the help of London ...


So ... blah, blah, blah, blah ....


You're probably thinking the sentiments of the Gaullish War Lord, Brennus. Who sacked Rome before it became an Empire and declared "Woe To The Conquered". Very intelligent rhetoric in today's society ... not!


Fact - irrefutable - England doesn't want to let go! Why?


You have all the answers, so Why????


I think that was always the question .. didn't really need an attempt at a History Lesson!


Just answer the question!




This is a thing That Australians may not have seen before .... fortunately too far removed from this ... racism has nothing to do with the colour of your skin! Then again, ANZAC Cove should resonate!


Actually, you know what?


I apologise to the members of this Forum for being so involved in this conversation.


My Family moved here in 1981 ..... leaving a lot of stupidity behind was quite a relief. Love this Country, served 21 years defending it! ... well I was in the RAAF, so take that with a grain of salt :-)

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Originally Posted by London Boy

The rump UK would treat Scotland a bit like it treats Norway or Denmark. Some other country, not too far away, on the small side financially and in terms of population, not threatening.

But we won't support its currency, or build our warships there, or let them send their goods through England tax free. We will welcome their banks and corporates as they set up their headquarters in London or Manchester. Helensburgh and Faslane will close of course, given the Scots don't want nukes on their territory, so those people will have to find jobs. Can probably tuck those things into Milford Haven or somewhere like. We'll not protect their fisheries, they'll need their own navy. We'll not administer their social services, they'll have to set up their own bureaucracy to do that.

Right now Westminster has to worry about Scotland and its people. If there's a vote to leave the UK, Westminster won't have that worry, since Scottish voters won't count for anything any more. On the other hand, bringing Scottish central belt jobs into northern England, that works very well for Westminster.

It's going to be fascinating to watch.

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I'm just going to ignore certain stupid issues like social services (They are very important but that isn't the thrust of this Convo) ... So well financed (resourced) by the poms right now ... blah, blah, blah!


" a bit like it treats Norway" "Not Threatening"


Can you quote their financial accounts? As in how much money do the Scandinavian Nations make? I hear they are really poor .... well, no ... that isn't true ... far from it.


... have you read the 'sanitised' book '3 Para' or have you served in a war zone or have you access to the actual accounts of Afghanistan reports? The "Horn wearing Vikings that hadn't seen a fight since the 800s" (a genuine quote from the superbly stupid) made the Brits look like rank amateurs. ... unbelievable! Continually drinking your own bath water! The Nords were 'Keen as', for a fight, were well trained and supported and their logistics made the Para's look like a Charity Event!


How deep is Milford Haven? There is no "like" in the UK .... that's why the boats are in Faslane ... it's a Glaciated Fiord ... FFS! Oh ... and where is Milford Haven?..... England?.... no it's in Wales, another subducted country that asked for an English invasion ... yeah right!!!


Sorry, I got facts in the way of a good story!

Something not thought of the EU. From an article in the Courier Mail;


" The EU has said if Scotland splits, it would have to join the ranks of eastern European nations applying for permission to join the EU - and there would be no guarantee it would be accepted. Being ousted from the EU markets could destroy business across Scotland.
There could even be barriers for England trading with an independent Scotland as agreements exist for England to trade with those from the EU first. The biggest issue for farmers is how Scotland would sit in Europe. There is a huge amount of European money coming into Scotland , not just in agriculture, but in roads, fisheries, industry ..and would Scotland be supported or have to wait to re-apply to the EU ?


That question has not really been answered by any one. It's uncertainty, & there doesn't appear to be a plan B. 'They just say to say yes, and we'll sort it all out, but that's not the basis for a rational decision., is it? You don't agree to buy a car, then discuss the price. ' There's more, it seems no one really knows what will happen after a yes vote. Bob

Norway and Denmark are super prosperous. The poms were nearly bankrupt a couple of years ago. Norway has saved their oil and gas money and it appears the UK has ****ed theirs up.

Scotland should get on well with the Scandinavian nations. The highlanders and islanders (and the Irish) are as much Norse as Gael thanks to my Scandinavian forebears. Honest seafarers and merchants who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.

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Originally Posted by Brian Hjelm

Norway and Denmark are super prosperous. The poms were nearly bankrupt a couple of years ago. Norway has saved their oil and gas money and it appears the UK has ****ed theirs up.

Scotland should get on well with the Scandinavian nations. The highlanders and islanders (and the Irish) are as much Norse as Gael thanks to my Scandinavian forebears. Honest seafarers and merchants who generously distributed their genes and names throughout the British Isles.

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Are Norway & Denmark in the EU ? If so , they would be under the same restrictions of trading with Scotland, as England. There seems to be a lot of passion involved in this vote, but I haven't seen much thoughtful debate. Not the Scottish way, I guess. Bob