D3, it's great but is it true sales have been disappointing?

Hey Drivesafe..

I'm not planning on turning my Taction control off either ( except in sand it can help)

I can just se Robs point... that if your skill level means that only the electronic bits get you there...... what happens when something breaks 8O 8O

I am more than happy to keep it all switched on mosat of the time... just would like to think my driving skill is enough to get me through if it is not working as well

If I wanted no traction aids you are right.... I would have bought something else.

Mark

Yep it was related to what-if-it-breaks, but more so to generally to being as smooth and skilled a driver as possible. Just getting there is not enough, you need to get there with minimum fuss, track and vehicle wear as possible. Much of that is line selection, and vehicles without lockers or ETC are much less forgiving of poor line selection, thereby improving skill. That is the main rationale for learning to drive without it.

But you also need to learn to drive *with* it too, know when it'll kick in, and how, and for how long. Drivesafe's driving up a hill slowly he credits to the electronics. It was in part, but also his skill in knowing the car could do it and therefore going slow. A less-knowledgable driver would have just flung the car at the hill, made it up and called it good. Traction control requires a different technique to non-ETC for best effect and that needs to be factored in too.

A top rally driver (ex Aus champion, who incredibly I was teaching to drive offroad) told me that he always recommended people to start rallying with basic, underpowered cars so they developed their skills. Same principle here.

Yeah, you need to know how drive both with and without TC.

When my compressor failed, I lost all traction controls. The car simply switched them off.. The only bad part really was that I also lost the diff locks and the car lowered to Normal Height. I could still move, albeit with some belly scraping, and still had 4WD. Imlike some other TC aided 4WD's, the car was still reasonably capable without TC.

On the other hand, When I still had full finctions I ended up having to go around one very sandy hill off the beach cause I just couldn't get over. This hill needed momunetum and I couldn't build it up. Later on I realised that at the time I was in sand driving mode, which reduces throttle response somewhat to try and prevent wheelspin. What I should of done was go to normal mode for that one hill as I could then have built up more speed and the greater momentum would have pushed me over the crest.

Still learning. 8O

What tyre pressures were you running in the sand?

Hi again rmp, not meaning to be a smart ass, but if it breaks I get towed.

I understand what you are trying to say but you are missing the point.

If it wasn’t for the electronic aids, not only would I not have the LRs, I probably wouldn’t be going off road.

BTW the HDC saved my goose today and it does work a lot better on the D3. On a number of occasions I have found that it does allow the RR to go a bit to fast but todays use on the D3 was the first and I found it to be much improved..

PS I still whoosied out on the mud slide today but as it’s the wife’s D3 and it’s only 3 weeks old, it was a case of put a scratch on the D3 and when I get home I’ll be putting a scratch on divorce papers.

On a lighter point do you have any idea how hard it is to get fresh cow dung out of cloth seat and of the leather inserts and out of the interior door handle and off the front and rear head rests and so on.

Hit one fresh cow paddy while cornering and straight in through the drivers window.

Cheers

I'm a farmer, so maybe I have a bit of a different view from the general public. I currently have a 97 Disco TDi for camping and the usual towing, carting, etc stuff around a farm.

When the new model came out, I thought - time to update, so I went for a test drive.

Fantastic motor (v6 Diesel). Price was fair. Much better size with more room everywhere. Build quality seems excellent. Fabulous reviews from overseas and Australian mags.

BUT... Everything is electronic. Even the damn handbrake! So what is going to happen when I put it through the creek every day over winter and some water gets in, or something comes adrift on corrugations on the way to Cape York. You are STUFFED, because no mechanic where I live or up the Cape is going to have the first idea of how to fix it. I had air suspension on my Range Rover, and every six months it would crap itself from grass seeds and mud in the height sensors - and I can see that sort of thing happening all over again with the D3.

By all means, have all the electronic stuff for the city buyers, but give us rural people a basic "de-electrified" model with a real handbrake, and a steel lever that you push and goes 'clunk' to lock the diffs, etc. and that you can get wet and not worry about everything stopping working.

Anyway, I am looking at a Defender now, but it is a big step down in terms of harshness and comfort from my 10 year old Disco. At least it has simple engineering though, that you stand a chance of fixing in the middle of nowhere (unless it's the ECU.....)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What tyre pressures were you running in the sand?[/b][/quote]

16psi

Quote:

---

Originally posted by drivesafe
Hi again rmp, not meaning to be a smart ass, but if it breaks I get towed.

I understand what you are trying to say but you are missing the point.

If it wasn’t for the electronic aids, not only would I not have the LRs, I probably wouldn’t be going off road.

BTW the HDC saved my goose today and it does work a lot better on the D3. On a number of occasions I have found that it does allow the RR to go a bit to fast but todays use on the D3 was the first and I found it to be much improved..

PS I still whoosied out on the mud slide today but as it’s the wife’s D3 and it’s only 3 weeks old, it was a case of put a scratch on the D3 and when I get home I’ll be putting a scratch on divorce papers.

On a lighter point do you have any idea how hard it is to get fresh cow dung out of cloth seat and of the leather inserts and out of the interior door handle and off the front and rear head rests and so on.

Hit one fresh cow paddy while cornering and straight in through the drivers window.

Cheers

---

We've made two different points.

I'm saying driving skill can be improved, should a driver choose, by using less-capable vehicles, but one also needs to learn to use aids to best effect.

You're saying you love your aids and never want to switch them off, fine with me, it'd be someone crazy who didn't use their vehicle to the best of its ability. As ETC indicates when it's active one can learn to drive to such effect that it rarely needs to activate.

You won't have the option to be towed if you're sufficiently far offroad.

And yes, HDC, like all electronic aids, is improving as time goes on. On the D3 it's the best yet, aided by an impressively low first gear (6-speed auto, love it). However, good as it is, it is still too fast in many situations, most often when you need to go over extremely rocky terrain. Then you want to literally inch your way over the rocks. HDC won't yet let you do that. And it should not be used when descending steep sand dunes. Even LR agree with that.

I have no idea about the cow dung unfortunately. First off my Defender lacks carpet, and secondly I always drive with the windows up because I've found from experience you can never tell what's likely to fly in through the window. I've seen people damage eyes with sticks in thru the window, and spiders etc in the car, but cow dung is a new one on me for sure!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jamo
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>What tyre pressures were you running in the sand?

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16psi[/b][/quote]

Fair enough then, many cases of "bad ETC in sand" have been traced to ignorance of tyre pressures but 16psi is definitely nice and low!

I've found it interesting to drive the same obstacle in several different TR modes to see the difference. After a while you begin to pick it.

cheers,

Quote:

---

Originally posted by spudboy
I'm a farmer, so maybe I have a bit of a different view from the general public. I currently have a 97 Disco TDi for camping and the usual towing, carting, etc stuff around a farm.

When the new model came out, I thought - time to update, so I went for a test drive.

Fantastic motor (v6 Diesel). Price was fair. Much better size with more room everywhere. Build quality seems excellent. Fabulous reviews from overseas and Australian mags.

BUT... Everything is electronic. Even the damn handbrake! So what is going to happen when I put it through the creek every day over winter and some water gets in, or something comes adrift on corrugations on the way to Cape York. You are STUFFED, because no mechanic where I live or up the Cape is going to have the first idea of how to fix it. I had air suspension on my Range Rover, and every six months it would crap itself from grass seeds and mud in the height sensors - and I can see that sort of thing happening all over again with the D3.

By all means, have all the electronic stuff for the city buyers, but give us rural people a basic "de-electrified" model with a real handbrake, and a steel lever that you push and goes 'clunk' to lock the diffs, etc. and that you can get wet and not worry about everything stopping working.

Anyway, I am looking at a Defender now, but it is a big step down in terms of harshness and comfort from my 10 year old Disco. At least it has simple engineering though, that you stand a chance of fixing in the middle of nowhere (unless it's the ECU.....)

---

I hear you loud and clear, you're a man after my own heart!

Unfortunately, LR have a corporate direction to maximise use of electronics and to innovate same. So we've seen the last of the non-electro Landies, unfortunately.

It'll be an 78 Series for you I'm afraid :-)

cheers,