D3, it's great but is it true sales have been disappointing?

RMP: I did think of a 78 series, but only 2 doors acrss the whole model range.

The thing that gets me, is that Land Rover's reputation has been built on tough go anywhere simple vehicles, and they are throwing it away.

You can only live on your reputation for so long. Eventually, when all they sell is freelanders and range rovers people will forget what made them such an iconic 4x4. What is going to differentiate them from a toyota?

I lived for 3 years in Africa, and the cars that hack it out there are Defenders. We had Pajeros, Suzukis, Hi-Luxes and Land Cruisers in our fleet, but the ONLY ones to have in a sticky situation were the Landies. I will keep buying Land Rovers, as I have had 4 of them now, but I despair about the core values of LR over the longer term.

How do you guys reply so quickly??? I'm about five posts behind!

Spudboy, to disengage the park brake manually, you remove the plastic panel in front of the lever and pull the cable loop inside.

I think that
1. Traction Controls are here to stay and in a few years the D3 will be considered 'old technology'

2. One needs to learn the ins and outs of ones own vehicle. How it drives in each mode, how it drives without TC. What is best for each situation. All of which will only come from experience.

I too bought the car because of its technology. I fully intent to use it and also fully intend to familiarise myself with every aspect of the vehicle.

When I get my new compressor fitted on Friday, I fully intend to watch the procedure so A. I know where it is (sometimes I can hear it but I haven't managed to find the bugger yet!), and B. know how to fix/replace it.

At the end of the day, the D3 is more capable off the showroom floor than either of it's competitors. You only have to read any of the prominent 4WD mags in this country to realise that the Landcruiser need it's entire supension replace with aftermarket stuff to bring it up to speed with the D3. And if you want to learn in a 15 year old car, be my guest, just go out and buy a brand new Patrol!!

(For the record, I tried that sandy hill I spoke about before at much slower pace, but was down to the belly before I even got half way.)

IF you told some of the farmers around here to hop on a 10-20year old header, they'd laugh. Nowadays its all GPS and autosteer.
:roll:

Jamo - I love technology in the appropriate place. And technology that makes things safer is a good thing (like ABS brakes). What I am thinking of is a fallback position for when it stops working (e.g. ABS brakes reverting back to old fashioned brakes - still usable).

If your D3 stops running in the middle of the Simpson, what are you going to do about it? Call Land Rover Assist and wait to be rescued at their expense, if you are under warranty. Otherwise.....? Even if it is something simple and fixable with normal tools, how do you know where to start without a diagnostic computer?

By chance, I found these pages when I was looking around a UK Land Rover site tonight:
http://landrover.haveyoursay.com/2005/07/n...olated_inc.html
http://landrover.haveyoursay.com/2005/06/e...ronic_melt.html
This guy has had a bad run!

All I am saying, is it would be good if there was some middle ground, with the comfort and power of the D3 but without all the superfluous add on gizmos.

Quote:

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Originally posted by spudboy
RMP: I did think of a 78 series, but only 2 doors acrss the whole model range.

The thing that gets me, is that Land Rover's reputation has been built on tough go anywhere simple vehicles, and they are throwing it away.

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They don't see money in that line of business. They *do* see money in the likes of the D3 and that brand reputation. It's at least intentional, even if from our perspective it's regrettable. However I'm all for development of electronic aids, but strictly in a "graceful dedgradation" mode, ie something can fail and it reduces the car's capability, not completely immobilises it.
cheers,

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jamo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jamo)</div><div class='quotemain'>
I too bought the car because of its technology.
[/b]

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There's LR's corporate direction in action. Technology sells, as indeed it should. LR wants that sort of brand image and it makes sense to me.

Also remember LR is an innovator. Remember the hue and cry over coil springs and constant 4WD, for example?



<!--QuoteBegin-Jamo

And if you want to learn in a 15 year old car, be my guest, just go out and buy a brand new Patrol!!

(For the record, I tried that sandy hill I spoke about before at much slower pace, but was down to the belly before I even got half way.)

IF you told some of the farmers around here to hop on a 10-20year old header, they'd laugh. Nowadays its all GPS and autosteer.
:roll:[/quote]

A new Patrol is a long way in front of say an old one. Significantly more power, for starters. Another reason for starting with an old vehicle is that you're less concerned about drowning it, dents, mud, rolling etc. Might as well build up that inevitable experience with a less costly vehicle. But it's only an idea, not for everyone.

cheers,

Quote:

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Originally posted by spudboy

All I am saying, is it would be good if there was some middle ground, with the comfort and power of the D3 but without all the superfluous add on gizmos.

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Contradiction in terms. The gizmos contribute directly to the D3 being what it is. Part of its ability on/offroad is down to the height-adjustable air suspension, for example, and the traction control. The RRS takes things even further with self-levelling suspension around corners. The TDV6 wouldn't be anywhere near as good without its array of computing power.

A non-electronic 4WD will never be the equal or better of its electronic counterpart, except in bushable reliability.

Now for superfluous, well that'd be the electrically adjustable seats and mirros https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Hi spudboy, you can pretty well get your required middle of the road by buying the model that suites your needs.

Hi rmp, the so called superfluous add ons not only help sell the higher end models, which in turn helps increase the overall sales figures but the specific add ons in a specific brand’s vehicle can be the very reason a potential buy decides to go with that brand and a perfect example of a vehicle full of add ons intended to make buyers change brands is the RRS..

Yet unless you are a dyed in the wool LR owner you wouldn’t know that it is really no more than a barstedised vehicle made up of parts from a number of models with the sole reason of winning over a section of the market of normally non LR buyers.

Any sales of a specific make of vehicle, no matter which model or which end of the range of that type of model, has got to be good for that makers bottom line and this has got to be good for supporters of that make.

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally posted by rmp


A non-electronic 4WD will never be the equal or better of its electronic counterpart, except in bushable reliability.

Now for superfluous, well that'd be the electrically adjustable seats and mirros :)

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As Austin Powers would say 'Oh contrare baby!'

Firstly, there's nothing better than hopping over rocks and sliding through mud whilst luxuriating in Connolly Leather! To those of us who spend 6 hours or more each day in their car, such items are not superflous.

Secondly, although i basically agree with your comment, as I said before, an electronic component is far less likely to fail than a mechanical one. And show me a car thats less than 20 years old that doesn't have computers or ECU's controlling important engine functions.

Having said that, I agree that a mechanic in the bush is very unlikely to have LR diagnostic software, creating problems if a major problem occurs.

But, prior planning and preparation prevents poor performance. It seems to me that the most common problems when out bush stem from inadequate planning and maintenance.

I wholeheartedly agree that everyone who intends touring should not only do a driving course, but also a basic maintenance course; as well as having their vehicle checked out by a reputable workshop well in advance.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jamo+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jamo)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-rmp


A non-electronic 4WD will never be the equal or better of its electronic counterpart, except in bushable reliability.

Now for superfluous, well that'd be the electrically adjustable seats and mirros :)

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As Austin Powers would say 'Oh contrare baby!'

Firstly, there's nothing better than hopping over rocks and sliding through mud whilst luxuriating in Connolly Leather! To those of us who spend 6 hours or more each day in their car, such items are not superflous.
[/b][/quote]

Each to their own.

I do 40,000km a year in my Defender, so I know about spending time behind the wheel.

I think many people confuse "luxury" with "comfort". While the Defender is not luxurious, I find it is comfortable. I think the upgright seating position and relatively hard seats good for the long distances. My wife also agrees the Defender is more comfy than our previous Pajero. But this is a highly personal decision.

What I do know is that leather doesn't grip my backside as well as vinyl.

But trim level is highly personal, hence my :-) in the post above because while I'd happily forego electric seats, mirrors, surround sound etc in favour of money in my pocket and payload for the vehicle, others choose not to make that choice and that's fine too. Such accessories are important to LR becuase they are important to some, perhaps even many, of their target customers. They just need to understand the tradeoff.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Jamo

Secondly, although i basically agree with your comment, as I said before, an electronic component is far less likely to fail than a mechanical one. And show me a car thats less than 20 years old that doesn't have computers or ECU's controlling important engine functions.

Having said that, I agree that a mechanic in the bush is very unlikely to have LR diagnostic software, creating problems if a major problem occurs.

But, prior planning and preparation prevents poor performance. It seems to me that the most common problems when out bush stem from inadequate planning and maintenance.

I wholeheartedly agree that everyone who intends touring should not only do a driving course, but also a basic maintenance course; as well as having their vehicle checked out by a reputable workshop well in advance.

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Agree about electronic components. But the problem with electronics, as I think you're getting at, is not electronics per-se it's the sheer unrepairability of same. Military jets have FRUs, or field replaceable units. You whip out a dodgy ECU and replace it. You can't do that on 4WDs, at least not yet. And it would be good to have a interface, so you could decide to limp on with some Terrain Response stuff disabled and some not, even at risk of vehicle damage, instead of the car thinking for you. What gets people is not the electronics, it's the sheer helplessness of the situation. If the D3 had all its gizmos controlled by clear wiring, and each gizmo controller was a replaceable unit (you'd carry spares) and you could tweak it all, disable/enable bits, then I for one would be much happier with that.

Well, when my compressor stopped working, the car lowered itself to Normal Height and locked out the TR and height adjustment. The car was still driveable, ground clearance was lower than I'd have liked but the belly plates were strong enough to take a little scraping. It seemed that its 'failsafe' position was to leave me with a driveable vehicle.

Obiously, if an ECU failed that controlled the transmission or engine the it would have been a different story, but all vehicles have these not just the D3.

If one part of the TR or TC is playing up though, it's easy enough to remove a fuse to disable it. I might try it some day to see what happens.

I daresay it won't be long before there are some systems available to override the ECU's. I note that in england you can already get a reprogramme to 200kw and 550Nm without chip replacement/addition.