Thread: The real experience of a Tesla SUV

Coal will only be providing about 20 percent of our electricity by 2050, according to Finkel, with most coming from gas, solar, wind and hydro. It will be stored in battery banks in houses, sub-stations, other buildings and at power plants. Lithium batteries will be mass produced at low cost and recharged by a mostly renewable grid. Can't see how hydrogen can compete with that.

Originally Posted by johntins

.... You miss the point that the cars exist now, and the infrastructure could be as simple as the one that supports LPG now.

No. Hydrogen cannot be liquified at room temperature by application of modest pressure. In fact, hydrogen cannot be liquified at temperatures above about -240C, so transport and storage as a liquid requires cryogenic insulation. Additionally, hydrogen will permeate through almost all materials at quite low pressures, and the leaking gas is explosive over a very wide range of proportions with air. So no, there is no way the infrastructure is near as simple as the one that supports LPG.

You also miss that this infrastructure is already available in a number of countries,
But only in areas of high population density.
and that it is supported by a number of heavy hitters in the auto industry, who have a vested interest in continuing to manufacture cars. Honda, Hyundai and BMW are not fly by night companies seeking to gain subsidies from gullible Governments. Tesla is.

Many of these established car manufacturers are also pushing towards electric cars. I hold no brief for Tesla, and in fact I will be slightly surprised if in the end they survive as a car manufacturer - I simply think that electric cars have a far brighter future than do hydrogen powered ones.

You also miss the point: The grid is powered by coal. All the wind lunacy will not change that. Or, are you willing to accept that you will remain wherever you happen to be when your battery goes flat until the wind blows? Or, are we back to the battery storage argument again? Neither works.

The Australian grid is powered by coal - but not necessarily so. If you follow the news, Australia's Chief Scientist thinks it will only supply 20% of Australia's grid power in thirty years. Some countries have grid power predominantly supplied by hydro, nuclear, wind, solar. The simple fact for Australia is that nobody is going to lend or invest to build coal fired new power stations in Australia today or in the future, as the writing is on the wall. And all existing stations are approaching end of life within a decade or two. Only this week the largest solar farm in the southern hemisphere was announced for NSW.

As for a distribution network, I mentioned California for a specific reason. I am not a fan of California's eco policies, but I recognise that they have unique difficulties. LA's car culture, and the smog it generates, coupled with Hollywood's holier than thou attitude seems particularly hypocritical. But, California has the tightest pollution laws in the world, and yet they have the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars. In fact they have mandated it at a certain level. So, you drive your Honda Clarity for around 500 miles, and just pop into a servo and fill it up. It takes the same time as filling up your normal car, costs around the same, and off you go. What's not to like?

California is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, as you say it also has the tightest pollution laws in world - it is not a matter of "yet", but a matter of "hence".

Providing a hydrogen fuelling network is easier than providing 'changeover' Tesla batteries, and the technicians needed to fit them. It is easier than continuing to find sources of oil and then refining it. It is easier than decimating the countryside by strip mining it for the materials to make batteries, and it is easier than recycling the batteries that already exist.

Providing a hydrogen fuelling network is easier than changeover batteries only in a place like California - and increasing battery capacity and charging technology is likely to make changeover less necessary. And use of hydrogen rather than batteries has nothing to do with energy supply. Whether you use batteries or stored hydrogen to provide portable energy for transport is independent of where the energy comes from. Why cannot people realise this? Using hydrogen as a transport fuel has no impact on oil production and exploration or coal mining. Changes in these have nothing to do with whether electric or hydrogen cars or even fossil fuel cars are used! Today 95% of hydrogen produced comes from steam reforming of natural gas! And the energy efficiency of this conversion, distribution of the hydrogen, and use in current hydrogen cars, is well below that of simply using that natural gas CNG in existing cars with the gas grid and compressor stations as a distribution network, or even refining, distributing and using petrol.

IMO, hydrogen is the future, and Musk is a charlatan in the same vein as Gore.

No argument with you about Musk, but I don't totally discount his products eventually succeeding. But Tesla is not the total electric car business, just the most flamboyant. Consider for example the smartphone - effectively invented by Apple, only ten years ago this week! Now ubiquitous - but are most of them made by Apple?

Several companies are investing big in advanced battery factories.
List of electric vehicle battery manufacturers - Wikipedia
Chart: China Leading the Charge for Lithium-Ion Megafactories
I also read that Germany is also planning a huge new plant.

Originally Posted by bee utey

Soon many vehicle manufacturers will be offering smaller simpler electric cars with less bells and whistles and these will make even more sense within a city environment. VW's e-Golf is one model that has been quietly gaining in capacity in some northern hemisphere markets. I reckon I could handle owning one for the missus to do her shopping with, short range and all. She rarely strays more than 60km from home these days so range isn't an issue just as recharge time isn't either.

A hybrid that will suit some buyers.

I'm pretty much onboard with what johntins is saying in this thread re battery / electric vehicles.

I have insufficient knowledge of hydrogen fuel cells to really comment on that, but really what could go wrong?
310px-Hindenburg_disaster.jpg


I think that the greenies are kidding themselves if they think we can supply enough power to run our cities, towns and vehicles from solar panels, wind turbines and unicorn poo.

The best way forward for Australia in that regard would definitely be nuclear.. but of course they won't have a bar of that will they....

Hydrogen is in the US.
Hydrogen Cars of 2017 - Toyota Murai and Honda Clarity

Soon to be expanded.
Coming soon to US highways: clean, quiet hydrogen cars | afr.com

But, what of Australia?
The breakdown: hydrogen on the horizon

The South Australian Government announced on Thursday that it will grant $8.2 million over four years for a hydrogen production and distribution site for fuel-cell-powered electric vehicles including at least six buses.

Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle - Hyundai Australia

John Cadogan has some interesting videos over the last week or so on EV's, everything from the PHEV to Tesla. Worth a look, even just for a laugh.