Climate Change and our Land of Fire, Flood and Drought.

**101RRS** · 16th November 2019, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by AK83

I don't care what science thinks of my 'beliefs' .. I've said it before, and I have to repeat it again .. I have no position. I did .. 'for', then read up on more history and went 'against', and was about to change to 'for' again until I realised my folly in changing again .. so I went 'agnostic' digging through the data and reading those same scientists saying that they're confused about some of the predictions they've made.

The argument that no one in power cares what the individual thinks is the alarm bell that they've lost any sense of reality.
Those kinds of mindsets(for and or against) are emotional. They're based on emotional methods of thinking .. eg. "we're doomed, so we need to act to at least appear to be doing something".

Is it really worth the risk? What risk? I've posted the links .. have a look at the 4.2Kiloyear event to see how little risk there actually is(historically speaking) .. the risk is either zero(ie. nothing will change) or negative(that is the change may be for the better).
Conversely if there needs to be a response, what if the current response strategy backfires and works against us in the future? What then. We can't predict the future. We can estimate it, but can't predict it with any certainty. Science has at least shown us that over and over far too many times for that to be ignored.

lack of leadership is the key. Nowhere does there appear to be any common sense leadership of any kind. Not in our government(s)!

Couple of nights ago I watched the movie called World War Z. Avoided it since day one cause it just sounded **it! But it was on, and I thought I'd put myself through it. Actually surprised it was OK.
But in the movie the Israeli guy mentioned 'the 10th man' and I assumed it was just a movie thing, but recent searching on it shows it's actually a thing that the Israelis have in place.
Checks and balances.
For a topic 'so important to human history' .. those scientists need a system like that, because what if they do have it wrong(which I think they do).

4.2Kyr event shows that it wasn't recorded in the ice cores, yet it happened.
Temp dropped, globe dried, civilisations 'collapsed' yet history shows us that they didn't collapse they evolved. Think of any historical civilisation in the 2000BC period and remember their legacy.
So what's the cost of this impending 'catastrophe'? .. evolution? Are we scared to evolve too now?

Climate science always harp on about how never in human history have climate changed so dramatically so quickly, yet a quick search on the 4.2kyr event shows that it did .. on multiple occasions, and far worse that it currently is!

8200 years ago climate warmed(actually cooled dramatically first then warmed again) more than 3°C in about 100 years or so. Again not my data .. it's a scientific graph that shows this curve. 7000 years ago: 2.5°C change in 100 years, 5500 years ago: 1.5°C in 100 years, 4000 years ago : 2°C change in 200 years(the 4.2 kyr event is about the fact that the cooling period doesn't register in the Greenland ice core data).
Ignoring the fact that as many say it's a cyclic anomaly thing ... how did humans 'act' in response to those warming events? Did their descendents suffer the way we seem to think ours will?

I worry about my kids futures too, but not due to global warming. We've seen a 1°C increase in 100 years and it's battle stations! Why? What if the 'battles'(ie the response) is misdirected, and cleaning up isn't the answer but something else is.

What we need is more "10th men" ... not sensationalistic hyperbole.

While I was searching about what I thought was a Hollywood cliche idea in this 10th man, I found THIS article. Article isn't particularly inspiring, other than one single comment ...

Of course it is! Complacency is the curse of mankind. Rulers got complacent they got overthrown. Dictators got complacent(cause mayhem, and misery) they got pummelled. Religions get complacent, they see diminishing returns ...
Science, who you'd expect to have these 10th people ..

Without even knowing I'm doing it .. that's what I seem to do ... look for flaws in EVERY argument ... not just the deniers. The conformists seem to have captured my interest more so now.

os. I'm not a habitual argumentative type, that is argue for the sake of it. Don't have the energy for it. I'm more of an information junkie. Weather geek, science nerd .. etc. I just like to know(so to speak).

Waht's also interestign tho are the arguments that the emotional types put up?

Really?

explaining to me that science doesn't care what I think?
Show someone the truth in the form of actual data, and their response is nah nah nah nah!
How stupid of me to expect some form of mature conversation!

Crickey more chapters from War and Peace - really do you expect people to read such long posts. Its a forum not a thesis.

**Disco-tastic** · 16th November 2019, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by 4bee

Answer me this you lot. How can Sydney & other Cities justify even thinking about exploding tonnes of fireworks on NYEve?

I realise that it could now be in doubt, not because of all the **** in the air but to give the money to a Farmer's Fund instead. But will they, won't they & who will audit that little scheme?

Not just Sydney but all over the world usual TV footage shows all these celebration with Mega tonnes of Fireworks.

Obviously the Chinese would be happy ( assuming they supply most Fireworks to the world

) so how can placing mega tonnes of **** into the atmosphere be a good thing these days? It doesn't disappear but finishes up somewhere around Earth.

I see it as the ME ME ME selfishness.

Maybe I'm missing a point or two here?

Just sayin'

Apparently the fireworks bring in more tourist dollars than they cost, so its a net win for the region. Also, they cost about $6m which is bugger all in the budget for Sydney.

**350RRC** · 16th November 2019, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by 101RRS

Crickey more chapters from War and Peace - really do you expect people to read such long posts. Its a forum not a thesis.

I dunno............... not a lot different from a very interesting thread about doing up a 101 some years ago. Just not a lot of pics.

DL

**rick130** · 16th November 2019, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by manic

Now that Rick has predicted the end of mankind, I feel that we need a positive perspective to help us on our way....

*swigs some more beer*

Some science dudes suggest time may not in fact be linear! There was a time before us, and there will be a time after us. But maybe here we are, in our time, to be found always!

Some other science boffs suggest that there are infinite time lines running in parallel, where every bit of life gets to live every bit of life. Where all eventualities are automatically realised at once! If that's how it is, why in the hell are you here watching this one?

You're welcome - *Grabs another beer too many*

Very true!

and I could get into how that correlates with the supposedly enlightened advaita vedanta philosopher/guru's of India who for millennia said the same, that linear time was a human construct and the past, present and future existed concurrently and what we perceive as real is merely illusion, a reality created by our minds.

And I haven't had a single drink tonight.

**SpudHeadTed** · 17th November 2019, 02:25 AM

Originally Posted by rick130

Very true!

and I could get into how that correlates with the supposedly enlightened advaita vedanta philosopher/guru's of India who for millennia said the same, that linear time was a human construct and the past, present and future existed concurrently and what we perceive as real is merely illusion, a reality created by our minds.

And I haven't had a single drink tonight.

They are right.

**4bee** · 17th November 2019, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by Disco-tastic

Apparently the fireworks bring in more tourist dollars than they cost, so its a net win for the region. Also, they cost about $6m which is bugger all in the budget for Sydney.

But at what cost to the rest of the globe?
Black powder may settle back to the earth but what of the gasses, they don't, they simply add to the mess the world is in.

Fireworks are propelled by black powder (aka gunpowder). This substance consists of an oxidizer (potassium nitrate), a fuel (carbon), and an accelerant (sulfur). For every 270 grams of black powder used, 132 grams of carbon dioxide are created, the rest of it turning into potassium sulfide and nitrogen.Dec 31, 2009

**SpudHeadTed** · 17th November 2019, 08:37 AM

The Sydney fireworks epitomise the way ‘spectacle’ is replacing meaning in our society. We have become obsessed with the ‘look’ of life, over real substance and we use ‘substances’ to pursue the image of paradise, of an idyllic lifestyle, whilst simultaneously destroying the paradise that previously existed.

Fireworks are simultaneously a superficial environmentally destructive ‘commodity’ and a ritualistic source of entertainment. The $6m investment generates massive income for the city of Sydney yes, but is it just more fuel for a society that values spectacle over substance? Many would argue that the $6m could be better invested in something off more meaningful benefit to society and less destructive to the environment.

‘The Society of the Spectacle’ is a good place to start for anyone truly interested in getting to the bottom of what is really driving the climate change debate.

The Society of the Spectacle - Wikipedia

“Debord traces the development of a modern society in which authentic social life has been replaced with its representation: "All that once was directly lived has become mere representation."^[2] Debord argues that the history of social life can be understood as "the decline of being into having, and having into merely appearing."^[3] This condition, according to Debord, is the "historical moment at which the commodity completes its colonization of social life."^[4]

**bob10** · 17th November 2019, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by AK83

No fear me doing that! ... but at the same time I also won't be joining the younger hipster, pseudo conscious, sheep generation at the other end of the spectrum either.

The argument that our children will have to pay to fix it all up .. how? what proof? These are the claims made that are illogical.
.

Nero fiddled while Rome burned. If young educated men and women are sheep for concluding that the World is heading for disaster, and join in the climate debate on the side of the believers, then surely those who scour the internet cherry picking statistics to support their thinking are lemmings, heading shoulder to shoulder towards the cliff. The lemmings ability to collate those statistics to form an educated opinion to present to the World as proof , is tenuous at the very best. Also, if not our children, who will be left with this when we are all gone, then whom?

**rick130** · 17th November 2019, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by bob10

Nero fiddled while Rome burned. If young educated men and women are sheep for concluding that the World is heading for disaster, and join in the climate debate on the side of the believers, then surely those who scour the internet cherry picking statistics to support their thinking are lemmings, heading shoulder to shoulder towards the cliff. The lemmings ability to collate those statistics to form an educated opinion to present to the World as proof , is tenuous at the very best. Also, if not our children, who will be left with this when we are all gone, then whom?

In psychology it's called confirmation bias.
We cherry pick data or arguments to support a belief.

We all do it to greater and lesser degrees and its really interesting to observe.

Unfortunately the vast majority of people lack the self awareness to notice when they do it, or go into denial (denial is an extremely strong protective mechanism) that often results in a thing called cognitive dissonance.
This is pretty painful, holding two or more contradictory beliefs at the same time and creates a lot of angst for the person experiencing it.

**Eevo** · 17th November 2019, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by rick130

or go into denial

excuse me, im not in denial.

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