Thread: off-road license (?)

Originally Posted by disco2hse

They will never happen. They cannot happen and for one simple reason.

You can license people to drive on roads because roads are governed by statute. They are owned either by state or local government and the statutes that govern access to roads can therefore be policed.

Offroad is entirely different. Ownership is the first major factor and access privileges that ensue. Government agencies (e.g. police) do not have right of access without due cause, for example they have to actually know that someone is in the process of doing something that contravenes their license. They cannot sit and wait like they do on roads.

Put another way. If licensing was to be implemented there would be no effective way to police it without first removing people's right to privileged access to privately owned property. Can you see that happening? I can't.

Alan

In Queensland designated beaches like Fraser ,Double Island , North & South Straddie and Moreton Island are classed as Roads.All road rules apply and there is a police presence with the same powers as on highways.
John.
PS I'm sure other beaches in the state are also designated but these are the ones around my area.Do the same rules apply in other states?.

A 4WD license isn't going to save lives or help, what will help is training whether that goes with a licence or not, which is where I think Cairns Rob is going. What would not help at all, in fact have a detrimental effect, is a license without training as that just gives false confidence.

Re flying light aircraft; yes you don't need to be type-rated for each one as JD points out. However, if the aircraft is markedly different, for example retractable undercarriage...then you need a type rating. I don't see vehicles as being any different; certain types of vehicle are different to others so at some point you need training (think of it as training, with the license being a byproduct) to drive them.

Yes 4WDs may be under-represented in accidents but...that data needs to be analysed against the type of people that drive them and where they drive them. I would suggest that 4WD owners tend to be older and more rural and perhaps that would have an effect on the statistics, who knows, but that needs to be taken in whatever the correct context is.

I agree the road toll will never drop to nil, Crump, but it can go a lot further down, and the point of driver training is not to "increase the survival rate" but to avoid accidents in the first place. For evidence -- look at the business defensive driver companies do with large corporates who seen their accident rate drop after their drivers are trained, which more than repays their investment.

As to whether a license or training would ever be passed, well that's a another discussion and unfortunately the way we're governed has features that sometimes prevent ideal solutions being implemented. First figure out the solution, then work out what will be done, then get depressed over the difference ;-)

Originally Posted by Bushie

I would like some one to convince me that having a special license (4WD) would save lives. We have licenses now but ~1600 die each year on the roads. Now the reason may be speeding, stupidity or whatever but 99.99% of them have an appropriate class license for the vehicle they are driving.

Whether the test is 'proper' is a whole new debate.



Martyn

this is a valid argument and I agree, having just the license i.e. the piece of paper to say you can drive doesn’t make a good driver but I do think that if one were to take a course/test and learn more safety techniques and basic skills for driving a 4wd (as we are specifically referring to 4wd'ing here) and if this saves even just a single person from having a fatal accident then the reason for one having to get that license is justified.

Living where I am I routinely see people arrive in a remote area with a 4wd and no clue what so ever. I've managed over the years to recover a number of them from some interesting fixes.

I agree with the need for better driver training in general terms. I think the driver training for getting L's and P's in Australia really doesn't address as much as it should. I also think there is need for a degree of 4wd training if you are buying a 4wd and intend to use it as such. An interesting example of this is the LR Experience days to give people some idea of what their 4WD can do. I think if you are moving to a remote area for the first time though you need a little more tuition.

The sensible novices that move up here haven't a clue to start with but quickly team up with someone with more experience, ask questions and learn. I think there is an analogy to flying though. You don't start flying solo, you shouldn't start driving off-road any differently, the consequences aren't (most likely) going to be as severe but you need that guidance and knowledge.

Originally Posted by rmp

..........

Yes 4WDs may be under-represented in accidents but...that data needs to be analysed against the type of people that drive them and where they drive them. I would suggest that 4WD owners tend to be older and more rural and perhaps that would have an effect on the statistics, who knows, but that needs to be taken in whatever the correct context is.
.........

The MUARC report I quoted from implied that the reason was "the type of person who chooses to drive a 4wd" which is similar to what you are saying, but not quite the same. And my experience (admittedly anecdotal) suggests that in fact most 4wd fatalities would be rural drivers, although not older ones. But the data in the report does point out that the driver is the most important factor, not the type of vehicle - in fact the vehicles with the highest safety ratings (sports cars) tended to the highest accident rates and deaths.

This does not support either a special licence or even special 4wd training - what it does support is attitude training (or testing). The problem is not actual driving skills, but the attitude - I suggest the same drivers who have accidents in four wheel drives are the ones who have accidents in other cars. I am reminded of an article I remember years ago where an aircraft insurance rep was asked how he decided whether an owner-pilot was a good risk, simply answered "Look at his driving record!"

John

Here's a thought from the other side. What about mandating Dynamic Stability Control on all 4x4 hire vehicles? The industry won't be happy as it would stop them using older vehicles (which they do) but I reckon it would help.

I'm not saying it would be 100% effective but it would help in many of the cases. DSC is a very effective technology and gives a vehicle recovery powers that aren't available to drivers of conventional vehicles.

Has anyone got a disco or something with DSC that can comment on it's effectiveness on sand?

What's more it keeps the cost of fixing the problem off the government which will make the pollies happy. It kind of puts the cost of fixing the problem back onto the end users too.

Originally Posted by D-Fender

I'd like someone to convince me too . With a new '4wd license' there would be some 'training' and then a test to get it just like a normal license, but would it actually do any good? Yeah maybe it might teach some idiots to drive a bit better off-road, but maybe not.

It would also kick all the 4wd hire places in the nuts, very hard.

Then why couldn't they just become tour operators instead?

Tourists will come over for a nice holiday in our beautiful country, only to find they aren't allowed to hire a 4wd to actually see any of the country because they don't hold some 'off-road 4wd license' (read: another way to sponge money out of us all), then they go home and tell their friends they couldn't hire a 4wd and then nobody will come here for a holiday and the Australian tourism industry get's kneed in the groin.

Again, there is a way around this - and that is to have more people running guided tours. It might then solve a few of the other issues of having unsupervised backpackers running around in the bush feeding dingos and stepping on our fragile native grasses etc.

Then there's those people who just don't care about the law, or about other people on the roads, (such as street racer types), driving around in their 4wd without bothering to get the license, tarring all 4wders as the same in the public eye.

Not much that can be done about them, but in time it would thin out their numbers.

I can just see this a another way for The Man to make everyone pay even more, just to live their lives.

Cynic!

All thanks to tourists killing themselves in 4wds. Which, would then be prevented because they wouldn't be able to hire them anymore.

Touche?

It's probably pretty obvious, but I am against the idea of having to have a license to drive a 4wd.

I can't see why anyone on this forum would be afraid of having to get their license endorsed to drive a 4WD/ORV. Surely the only legitimate concern here would be any proposed cost in having to do so.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

I am not. I suppose part of the reason is that, having driven four wheel drives on and off for over fifty years, I have to be convinced that I need a new licence. And I have no doubt that I would be charged to get such a licence for no benefit whatsoever.

Plenty of cockies on farms can ride bikes well enough too, but they still have to get a motorcycle license to ride out the gate.

The same logic could be applied to all the other types of vehicle that can be driven on a class C licence. Are you going to require a special licence to drive light trucks for example? Or campervans? How about those who learned to drive on a four wheel drive? How about a special licence to drive an older car with a higher centre of gravity? How about the limits this would place on employment?

Maybe you will, but for now we're talking specifically about numnuts putting Troopies on their lids. Part of the problem is simply that people mistakenly think 4WDs are the same as any other passenger car and drive them accordingly! Having a special license class for them will stop this assumption.

As I see it, it would be simply more bureaucracy which would not have a significant impact on road safety - perhaps worth noting that according to MUARC large four wheel drives are under-represented in accidents, injuries and deaths (albeit not necessarily in the hands of teenagers!).

The point here is not just that having a special 4WD/ORV license class will solve the problem completely. But it will definitely limit it. The main aim is to place some form of obstruction between the un-educated and the tool that will possibly kill them.

I repeat - is there anyone here who is afraid of taking another test to endorse themselves to drive their Land Rover? I think not. Are there people here who would resent having to pay for the privilege? I'm sure there are. So maybe license fees could be handled like dog registration or classic car insurance - club membership entitles you to a healthy discount.

Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Here's a thought from the other side. What about mandating Dynamic Stability Control on all 4x4 hire vehicles? The industry won't be happy as it would stop them using older vehicles (which they do) but I reckon it would help.

Part of the problem with just mandating driver aids like DSC is that is perpetuates the notion that you can just drive a high, 4WD like any other car.

"Look honey, this new Nissota Troopatrol Cruiser-lux corners like it's on rails...
....have you noticed that the trees here seem to grow much more sideways...?"