off-road license (?)

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

What you do not appreciate, is that quite apart from the city/country aspect, the normal car licence allows drivers to drive a wide variety of vehicles, including light trucks and vans which are arguably even more different from a car than are typical four wheel drives. Introduction of a four wheel drive licence logically requires similar licences for these vehicles. This requirement would greatly limit the employment opportunities of a lot of people, both city and country.

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I still think you're making it into a city vs country thing (why?). To suggest a country driver who has only known 4WDs might need a regular car license is like suggesting someone with a manual license needs to get special endorsement to drive an automatic. Using the manual vs automatic concept I suggest that country drivers - if they only have access to 4WDs - would in fact take the regular car and 4WD driving tests together and get the 4WD/off-road vehicle classification straight away.

As for types of vehicles, the fact is that people continue buying large 4WDs for everyday driving where they would not think of buying a light truck or van. Consequently the problem exists where people don't realise that large 4WDs handle differently to regular cars, but I doubt whether anyone would ever make the same assumption about a light truck. It is the problem of people's failure to respect the limitations of the vehicle that gets them into trouble. This problem is in fact not helped by the manufacturer's continued engineering of large 4WDs to have similar power/weight ratios and suspension setups to regular cars thereby lulling users into a false sense of security when they drive - on or off road.

If people are wondering why I keep banging on about the idea of an off-road vehicle license classification, one reason is that I am damn proud of the off-road knowledge and skills I have learnt and am aware of the unique abilities and limitations my Land Rover. I think it's high time something was done to stop any half-wit turning up to a dealership and plonking down some cash for a new Hummer then promptly wasting themselves, or worse the family in an oncoming Daewoo, on the first hairpin. A special license classification basically declares that I have this knowledge and skill and am therefore privileged to be allowed to drive the relevant vehicles.

On the topic of how training & testing might be implemented, one idea floated on an earlier thread was that dealers could in fact run training & testing for purchasers of 4WDs much like the Q-ride courses in QLD for motorcycle riders wanting to get straight on a bike over 250cc. The option would exist for customers to have the training thrown in with their purchase as an incentive, or people who already have their license could get a discount on the vehicle.

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Originally Posted by solmanic

If people are wondering why I keep banging on about the idea of an off-road vehicle license classification, one reason is that I am damn proud of the off-road knowledge and skills I have learnt and am aware of the unique abilities and limitations my Land Rover. I think it's high time something was done to stop any half-wit turning up to a dealership and plonking down some cash for a new Hummer then promptly wasting themselves, or worse the family in an oncoming Daewoo, on the first hairpin. A special license classification basically declares that I have this knowledge and skill and am therefore privileged to be allowed to drive the relevant vehicles.

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Now both you and John should know that you are both people who's opinions I greatly respect. :)

I think John's point is that the scenario you suggest of someone that doesn't need a 4wd coming into a dealer and buying one with no intention of using it off road because they have a small penis or some other insecurity just doesn't happen (often) in the country. People out there buy them because they need them, and they have probably been driving all manner of machinery (that includes the girls) since they were kids. So, it really is a city only problem, and an extra licence is just an added impediment to life.

In my experience, people in the country use 2wd cars for things that city folk would never dream of.

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Originally Posted by solmanic

If people are wondering why I keep banging on about the idea of an off-road vehicle license classification, one reason is that I am damn proud of the off-road knowledge and skills I have learnt and am aware of the unique abilities and limitations my Land Rover. I think it's high time something was done to stop any half-wit turning up to a dealership and plonking down some cash for a new Hummer then promptly wasting themselves, or worse the family in an oncoming Daewoo, on the first hairpin. A special license classification basically declares that I have this knowledge and skill and am therefore privileged to be allowed to drive the relevant vehicles.

On the topic of how training & testing might be implemented, one idea floated on an earlier thread was that dealers could in fact run training & testing for purchasers of 4WDs much like the Q-ride courses in QLD for motorcycle riders wanting to get straight on a bike over 250cc. The option would exist for customers to have the training thrown in with their purchase as an incentive, or people who already have their license could get a discount on the vehicle.

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I thought the issue at stake here was tourists in hire 4x4s, not people who buy them from a dealer...

Do we make tourists do this test before they hire a 4x4? The situation would be unworkable. A tourist from Germany with a (car) drivers licence has to go through a far more rigorous series of tests than any which exist in Australia, and are much better drivers on average - probably on and off road. If we make 1 EU country exempt from the tests, I am sure we would need to make all...

I agree completely with JDNSW's comment about - if a 4x4 licence is required, what about the other vehicles???

A standard licence lets you drive:
A car
An all wheel drive car
A soft roader
A 4x4
A light rigid truck
A minibus (<=12 seats)
A moped/scooter <50cc
probably a few others I have forgotten...

Which of those do we bring in a special licence for??? How do we decide what a 4x4 is? Does a freelander owner need one? What about a renault scenic owner? Subaru outback? Subaru WRX? What about a special licence for turbocharged cars? Or front wheel drives?

Completely unworkable. Improve the standard of the driving test(s) by all means, so people know how to drive in all conditions, have an understanding of their vehicle and issues like CofG...

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Originally Posted by JDNSW

I live in the bush, and have been driving four wheel drives for offroad fifty years. Why should I be required to pay for a new licence to drive to and from my own property? I hire an employee, who learnt to drive on a four wheel drive and has been driving one since his legs were long enough, why should he be required to buy a new licence before he can get a job. It makes no difference whether the licence fee is paid to a club or the RTA.

The assumption that "I AM SURE IF U CAN AFFORD TO BUY A 4X4 YOU CAN AFFORD $50 FOR A NEW LICENSE." is insulting to those who have been struggling with drought for the last ten years, mostly are driving the same four wheel drive they were ten years ago (longer in my case), and have no choice but to drive one.

Your proposal is totally city-centric and assumes four wheel drives are only used for recreation, which is not the case.

John

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A bit off topic here but I have the same feelings with my chainsaw.
I have been using a chainsaw on a regular basis for about 30 years.

Now if I joined the SES or if I helped out with the bushfire recovery I would not be allowed to use my chainsaw without doing a course.

As I see it, it is their loss as they are missing out on a volunteer.

You can call me pig headed if you like but what I don't need is some young 22 year old upstart who has just come out of uni with a piece of paper telling him he can teach me. I could probably teach him more.

Off topic I know, so Mods feel free to remove this post if you see fit.

Dave.

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Originally Posted by Mr Whippy

A bit off topic here but I have the same feelings with my chainsaw.
I have been using a chainsaw on a regular basis for about 30 years.

Now if I joined the SES or if I helped out with the bushfire recovery I would not be allowed to use my chainsaw without doing a course.

As I see it, it is their loss as they are missing out on a volunteer.

You can call me pig headed if you like but what I don't need is some young 22 year old upstart who has just come out of uni with a piece of paper telling him he can teach me. I could probably teach him more.

Off topic I know, so Mods feel free to remove this post if you see fit.

Dave.

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In general I would agree with you.

In this area as with driving, I think the major factor for safety is not so much what bit of paper a person has, or even what their skill level is, but how accurate they are at assessing their own ability. For example, I do not consider my skill with a chainsaw is adequate for this sort of work, so i don't try it. But I know a number of people without the bit of paper that are a lot better than some that have it.

John

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Originally Posted by JohnF

Years ago, myself and others took 2 wheel drive VW beetles up Frazer Island. You do not necessarily need 4WD for Frazer, so why penalise those in 4wd's. Also took my VW Beetle up other roads marked 4 wheel drive only. I do think owners of 4WD should not be penalised for afew idiots.

Perhaps hire companies should be made to inform hirers of the dangers of a 4wd before they hire it to them. Once I hired a small 2 ton pantec truck to move a friend into a new flat. I was not familiar with that sort of vechile, so took it easy, and had no problems. Surely I should not have to have special tests and licences before I hire such a vechile.

Some years ago we purchased a Ford XC Falcon station waggon that had stiff springs fitted fortowing a caravan. Its handling was terrible, the rear sliding out on evry corner. No 4WD that I have ever driven has handled as bad as that 2WD. Yet people want to introduce special licences for 4WD. How silly.

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Right on, makes no difference how many wheels drive, its more a size or weight factor. There is too much Govt intervention now. If you drive something that is not familiar, then you take it easy. If you are driving in unfamiliar territory, you take it easy. You cant legislate to controll everything. There will always be idiots.

Mr W illustrates a classic case.

He has a competence based on 30 years experience. Therefore, he needs no test to prove his ability with a saw. Let's say that is the case.

What about Mr X who has 25 years?

Mr Z with 20 ? Or 15? Or 10 Or 5? Or 2?

Where does it stop?

Or, can anyone with a chainsaw rock up and claim ability and then set to?

There has to be a limit somewhere. Rather than years of experience the ability to carry out a task is measured by a test -- if you can pass the test after ten minutes, great, if you can't after 30 years, tough. Much fairer way to do it.

Those that do have an ability generally don't have an issue proving the point by quickly passing whatever test they are asked.

Just because you know you can do something doesn't mean to say everyone else should agree and take that on trust. It's not personal.

Now there are those and I don't doubt there are plenty of this forum, who have an ability AND do not wish to take any test/get any license. I wish they could see it is not a doubt of their ability or a personal slight it is merely an equitable standard for everyone.

Having 'the bit of paper' doesn't make you an expert. All it means is that you have met a certain standard. Of course some non-holders would be more expert. That's irrelevant.

You may be sensible, intelligent and skilled but how are other people meant to know that? Because you tell them?

Also, maybe it's just me, but every time I do a training course I learn a little more, even if I'm teaching it. So those with eons of experience shouldn't think they have nothing left to learn. Or maybe that's just me and there are people who do know it all.

Re 4WD licenses. Again the objective is better training, whether or not related to a license, special or otherwise. I think special licenses could work, but it's the training that's the key.

Please note I don't doubt Mr W's chainsaw skills, but if I was in charge of the SES group I wouldn't let someone in based on their word, it'd have to be a test.

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

I thought the issue at stake here was tourists in hire 4x4s, not people who buy them from a dealer...

Do we make tourists do this test before they hire a 4x4? The situation would be unworkable. A tourist from Germany with a (car) drivers licence has to go through a far more rigorous series of tests than any which exist in Australia, and are much better drivers on average - probably on and off road. If we make 1 EU country exempt from the tests, I am sure we would need to make all...

I agree that Germany has a better (more thorough) licensing regime, but it doesn't in any way teach them 4x4/off-road skills. Snow driving - yes, autobahn driving - yes, but off-road technique and on-road handling of tall, 4x4 vehicles - no.

I agree completely with JDNSW's comment about - if a 4x4 licence is required, what about the other vehicles???

A standard licence lets you drive:
A car
An all wheel drive car
A soft roader
A 4x4
A light rigid truck
A minibus (<=12 seats)
A moped/scooter <50cc
probably a few others I have forgotten...

Which of those do we bring in a special licence for??? How do we decide what a 4x4 is? Does a freelander owner need one? What about a renault scenic owner? Subaru outback? Subaru WRX? What about a special licence for turbocharged cars? Or front wheel drives?

Completely unworkable. Improve the standard of the driving test(s) by all means, so people know how to drive in all conditions, have an understanding of their vehicle and issues like CofG...

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You need to read my post a few pages back. I went to great lengths to explain a possible way that they could classify which vehicles might require the extra license endorsement based on height-width ratio, low range transfer box etc.

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Originally Posted by Mr Whippy

A bit off topic here but I have the same feelings with my chainsaw.
I have been using a chainsaw on a regular basis for about 30 years.

Now if I joined the SES or if I helped out with the bushfire recovery I would not be allowed to use my chainsaw without doing a course.

As I see it, it is their loss as they are missing out on a volunteer.

You can call me pig headed if you like but what I don't need is some young 22 year old upstart who has just come out of uni with a piece of paper telling him he can teach me. I could probably teach him more...

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IMHO it is a bold and foolish thing to ever think you know too much to let someone else can teach you - no matter what their age is. Sure, we may resent having to be tested and licensed to drive our Landys since we are all so experienced and it's our birthright and so on, but I'll do it anyway.

I've been around a lot of skiing instructors and that sport is a classic example of where old dogs have had to learn new tricks based on updated knowledge and technique. Times change and so does technology and collective knowledge of a subject, so a young graduate can be better informed than someone who has been working in a field for 20 years if they haven't done some sort of continuing professional development.

So to bring this back on topic... hey, some people might just learn something if they are forced to do an off-road vehicle driving test.