Thread: Australia day

Originally Posted by Dmmos

I respectfully disagree - the Aboriginal way of life was not rainbows and kitten farts, it was constant warfare, perpetual injustice among tribal inhabitants and appaling levels of infant mortality. They had absolutely no scientific development -significant or otherwise.

I was at no time wearing rose coloured glasses about there life style. Scientific development is only of use in our society western thinking like ours, most indigenous cultures are not interested in thing of that nature, and is neither right nor wrong it's just a different way of life.


Go out into the outback with nothing but your underpants and a stick, forget >everything< you know about the country/survival and you'll probably live as long as they did (although their 40,000 year advantage may give them a few extra months).


to think the aboriginal people lived out in the deserts a lone is miss guided, they lived on the coasts mainly as we do now as this was the most plentifull food sources.

I have nothing against Aboriginals, I think their current lifestyles are terrible by any metric, however I don't view non-Aboriginals as the problem (today) - rather a major part of the solution. The majority of the Aboriginal people today cannot take care of themselves, whether in Wellington or Redfern, just as they couldn't over 200 years ago.

Call me crazy (which I'm sure many of you will), but I see no problem whatsoever in the forced removal of children from Aboriginal families (although as most of you are probably aware, this is likely a larger issue among non-Aboriginal families in absolute terms, although less so proportionally) where the parents are alcohol/drug abusers, etc.

In the begining children where being taken because the church/state goverment thought the kids should be bought up like anglo kid's, given an education and forced religion, once again a cultrial differance, and the white man think they know everything. But I do agree with you for these days as kids are being abused. When you think about the whole indigenous population it's less than the whole of the unemployed so when you think about that the dole bludges are costing more.

White people can only be blamed for so much - in today's society there is (all things being equal) greater opportunity for an Aboriginal/Torres Strait Islander than the other inhabitants of this land. As such, I think people should be asking why more of them don't live normal lives (by any standard). Perhaps removing children from a devastating cycle of substance/child abuse would help?

I also get frustrated with the double standards, but with no education systems in there culture it is not something that comes easy and can take many years, and with the white man fix of give more money this has not helped the situation. White man can fix most things with money but indigenouse cultures by nature have no need for money or white mans fix ups, most indigenous cultures are very religious.

Ultimately, I disagree entirely with moving the date - or the meaning - of Australia day, given it already strongly includes the Aboriginal people (as it should).

but thats only my opinion

Originally Posted by lambrover

but thats only my opinion

Funnily enough I agree with all of it

I think one of the hardest policy areas (especially given the various perceptions) is what to do about the situation now - not just Australia Day, flags, etc. (although this is obviously very important) but how to actual fix broken a broken social setting (Aboriginal or otherwise)...

Although that might go a little beyond the aims of AULRO

Here we go, time to get flames again.

OK I say it often enough, I have traveled a lot and have spent most of my working life in places where there are just as many bugs on your dinner plate as there is climbing the walls. I will say this though; Australia is quite a racist country relatively speaking. This in my opinion and based on my observations goes hand in hand with most Australians being patriotic. The more Patriotic the citizens are of a country the more social problems there seem to be. Patriotic emotions are a tool used to control a population and a well used tool it is. Since a populations emotions are easier managed than there logic, than just don’t use logic and stay with the emotions.

Now flame away.

As to native Australians. The solution is simple, but before I out line that I will point out a couple of other things.
An aussie SAS digger wrote a very good white paper for the aussie government ( I don’t know if this is in open forum or if I can publish his name) any way on Somalia, as his UN team moved further inland or into the more tribal areas, he realized that there efforts to help were not really appreciated in the way that they expected. Traditionally you don’t have food or enough women you attack the next village. Women have 10 kids with the expectation that 2 may survive to look after them when they are old.

1 the UN gives them food for free, the boys don’t become men because they haven’t been to war. No war but free food so why farm?? Bingo a bunch of guys who hate you because you cant kill to become a man and who now don’t farm and don’t teach there sons to farm etc.

2 then there’s mum. She thinking what the hell am I going to do with 10 kids, most are supposed to die

Maybe BBC would like to comment?

I saw a very similar thing in Laos, by 1995 when I left, the northern Cambodians were on there 3rd generation since farming had stopped and AK, AKS had replaced the buffalo. How on earth can you turn that around?

Simple really, either you in the system or not ( the Asian solution) live in town you have to have a job, kids have to go to school etc, don’t want to do that, well then go back to where ever you lands are? We shouldn’t be invading native lands with housing medical and schools. If they want the advantages to this then like every one else they need to have a job. Sounds harsh but I have seen this work a couple of times. They actually end up with the advantages of both worlds

Originally Posted by clean32

Here we go, time to get flames again.

OK I say it often enough, I have traveled a lot and have spent most of my working life in places where there are just as many bugs on your dinner plate as there is climbing the walls. I will say this though; Australia is quite a racist country relatively speaking. This in my opinion and based on my observations goes hand in hand with most Australians being patriotic. The more Patriotic the citizens are of a country the more social problems there seem to be. Patriotic emotions are a tool used to control a population and a well used tool it is. Since a populations emotions are easier managed than there logic, than just don’t use logic and stay with the emotions.

Now flame away.

As to native Australians. The solution is simple, but before I out line that I will point out a couple of other things.
An aussie SAS digger wrote a very good white paper for the aussie government ( I don’t know if this is in open forum or if I can publish his name) any way on Somalia, as his UN team moved further inland or into the more tribal areas, he realized that there efforts to help were not really appreciated in the way that they expected. Traditionally you don’t have food or enough women you attack the next village. Women have 10 kids with the expectation that 2 may survive to look after them when they are old.

1 the UN gives them food for free, the boys don’t become men because they haven’t been to war. No war but free food so why farm?? Bingo a bunch of guys who hate you because you cant kill to become a man and who now don’t farm and don’t teach there sons to farm etc.

2 then there’s mum. She thinking what the hell am I going to do with 10 kids, most are supposed to die

Maybe BBC would like to comment?

I saw a very similar thing in Laos, by 1995 when I left, the northern Cambodians were on there 3rd generation since farming had stopped and AK, AKS had replaced the buffalo. How on earth can you turn that around?

Simple really, either you in the system or not ( the Asian solution) live in town you have to have a job, kids have to go to school etc, don’t want to do that, well then go back to where ever you lands are? We shouldn’t be invading native lands with housing medical and schools. If they want the advantages to this then like every one else they need to have a job. Sounds harsh but I have seen this work a couple of times. They actually end up with the advantages of both worlds

Different situation, with all due respect. Aid to developing countries really needs a rethink in terms of whether it helps the people who give or the people who receive.
I think it is an appalling tragedy that aborigines exist (if it can be called that) the way they do. If nothing else they are fellow australians, and yes I think we can learn a real lot from them.
Their culture is extraordinary, complex, detailed and amazing. And, as an aside, have a listen to Saltwater band if you can, it just rocks.
Sadly, not a great fit for the modern world though and thats a reality we need to confront. How to give them the benefits without harming them in the process.
My belief, a lot of them hate whities and with good reason. The acts of dispossession are very real and continuing for a lot of them.
A lot of harm has been done by do-gooders trying to stir up things and just causing trouble. Its better to lend a hand rather than organize, or opine. Just help.
A lot of people exploit them and their poverty, pretty much the whole NT govt for instance.
Agree or disagree, Noel Pearson is talking a lot about jobs and education solutions for (mainly Cape) aborigines, its interesting to hear similar ideas here
As an edit, I have also travelled a lot. Having been settled for a few years here, I am at the point where I have spent more than half my life in Australia.
Most of the places the bugs crawling on your dinner plate WERE your dinner. Australia isnt rascist. It has a complex, maybe convict/colonial past, but also to denigrate ourselves and to see the worst in ourselves somehow.
We are an amazing people, we have achieved through immigration an extraordinary thing that has been far more successful than any other country in the world. We should be proud of it, not beating ourselves up all the time.
Who else has done it, not China, Kazahkstan, Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam or cambodia. Certainly nor India, nor UK, and to have them finger pointing at us denigrates our achievements and the fair go and equality that we stand for, our ideals.
Stand up for your country, when people say Australians are rascist just say, name ten less rascist countries. If the facts are known (to you at least) they wont be able to. Be proud, but not blind

Originally Posted by alanbettison

We were talking to a bloke about the slaughter of the brumbies and the closure of many parks/tracks - the sterilization of Australia

Just trying to follow here - You're saying the control of feral, destructive pest species is bad? or good?

Originally Posted by lambrover

the problem with your argument is that you are assuming they had a crap life before we got here, the aborigines had a great life style it was just a different culture to the anglo's. the simplicity of there culture mixed with yours is the problem.

Saying all that I don't think we should change the day, aborigines had wars of there own, we just had the bigger stick on the day that is life.

You reckon? Well I suggest you toss everything aside and go live native for a bit with absolutely no contact with the western world and its vices.
Get back to me in a few years and let me know how you are doing.
All the rubbish about traditional life, not one of them would go back to that lifestyle 100%. Even the good ones that live in the bush still rely on us to give them their motorised covered wagons and firesticks to hunt.
Different cultures sure, but it is about time aboriginals started to take responsability for their own and the direction of their people, not keep living in the past and blaming everyone else. They need to respect themselves first before any progress can be made. Once they are at this point I am all for assisting them move on and up.

Originally Posted by CraigE

You reckon? Well I suggest you toss everything aside and go live native for a bit with absolutely no contact with the western world and its vices.

Myself would have no chance and as would most/all aboriginal people now, but if they were left alone from the start they would be fine.


Get back to me in a few years and let me know how you are doing.
All the rubbish about traditional life, not one of them would go back to that lifestyle 100%. Even the good ones that live in the bush still rely on us to give them their motorised covered wagons and firesticks to hunt.
Different cultures sure, but it is about time aboriginals started to take responsability for their own and the direction of their people, not keep living in the past and blaming everyone else. They need to respect themselves first before any progress can be made. Once they are at this point I am all for assisting them move on and up.

It was only about 60 or 70 years ago they where still shooting blacks for sport in nth Queensland. I myself used to say why don't they get back to traditional life style and stop bludging, When you have a good look at it they have been treated pretty badly and they cant go back to traditional life style even if they wanted to because the white man has taken the the best places to live and hunt, also they have been currupted by our culture.

Even with all this said you have to wonder how long dose it take to learn, but now with so many generations that have been on welfare the kids have no role models and the cycle is set. no simple fix.

Originally Posted by Hymie

I'm happy to call it Invasion Day.
The Aboriginals can think themselves lucky they weren't "Invaded" by the Portuguese or Dutch.

Or Spain! Though the Spanish way of life and type/style of agriculture may have been better suited to the Australian environment than the british/english model.