Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

Soooo 1 week into Defender ownership after having a D3 for 7.5 years here's my thoughts:

We took the 130 for a bit of a drive tagging along on a LRC driver training day. Oddly enough it did everything that I would have expected it to on a fairly gentle track in the Brindabellas. My initial impressions after having driven the D3 on the same track many times is that the Defender is harder work to achieve the same result.
With the Disco you choose the correct setting for the track and allow the vehicle to gently proceed over the terrain while enjoying the view. If you pick the wrong ratio for a descent press the HDC button and wait while the vehicle regains composure for you and then proceed.
With the Defender consider if you need to lock the centre diff, select a gear for the whole ascent/descent, consider how you will recover the vehicle if you make a mistake in selecting a ratio, let out the clutch and actually drive the vehicle 100% of the time.
The Disco makes the trip look effortless while you gently modulate your progress with your right boot. In the Defender you adjust yourself to the fact that you have one arm jammed up against the window and your shoulders ache because the console is too low to rest your other elbow on it.
On road the Disco feels like a big whale like car. Goes and stops like a car and quietly whisks you home from your adventure in comfort. The Defender drives like an 8 ton truck (because it is a truck), you consider the gear that you are selecting and then wait for the boost to come up as you accelerate through the gears and derive considerable pleasure as the torque allows you to travel at a pace far greater than you think you should be able to ( like an empty 8 ton truck )

Would I want the Disco back? No, I need a touring vehicle that is a dual cab that doubles as a farm vehicle, a specification that the Disco does not meet. Is the Defender better off road, I don't know, despite having the Disco for 7.5 years I only managed to find the limit of its capabilities twice, both times attributable to a lack of traction, one of which muddies would have helped, the other I needed 35's which the Defender does not have as stock. In summary the vehicles are generally both more capable than I need so ultimately it's a moot point.

Am I developing Stockholm syndrome? probably, the Defender is a fantastic vehicle but for a very different set of reasons than the Disco is.

Regards,
Tote

Is this really still going ??

I think it's time we asked for closing arguments and then called it a day. Here's mine ......

The Series/County/Defender style LR has been around for a long, long time. It has created a vision and lifestyle around the brand, that LR have been reluctant to lose. But ironically, it's that decades-old inertia around the original design that has finally precipitated its demise. LR were boxed into a corner with the design and technology of the model, and only finally relented to the writing on the wall and axed it a few weeks ago. Still an open wound for many.

It was too hard to re-tool to keep it modern; the chassis was too old a design to easily upgrade to modern safety requirements; the external shape (and chassis design) limited what could be modernised, and there was a huge push back from brand affectionados any time such endeavours were attempted. When GKN modernised the LR Defender line at the turn of the century (no more hand-welded joints - all roboticised, shock, horror!!), it upped the robustness of the chassis, but was seen as the "death of the true LR" by the anorak brigade.

What went wrong? The ladder box chassis design, although strong, presented poor rigidity (hence the requirement to have such accurate joint welds), couldn't be designed to absorb external compression events (hence failure of crash tests) and precluded the adaption to fit more modern technology. The fact that (in my eyes) the LR County V8 was the strongest of the old designs, meant that many a Defender owner would have tears in their eyes remembering their older vehicles - the design simply went downhill from there.

By contrast, there was never really that much past-indulging inertia for the Discovery or Range Rover to overcome. With one or two exceptions in the D2 updates, every Discovery release has been better than the last. Ditto for the Rangie (P38 owners rejoice!). LR was relatively free to change design mid-stream, on a much greater scale than with the Defender. The investment in the hydroform chassis + monoque body (the "intergrated chassis design" of the T5) meant huge leaps forward. The new 3mm hydroformed ladder chassis was stronger than the Defender's, and yet the additional monoque structure added greater rigidity than the old L322 design (which has been the class leader at the point of the introduction of the D3). The EAS / TR technology for off-road environments gave a huge ability to fine-tune the vehicle to a much larger variety of terrains.

There was (and is) no way the Defender could (can) compete. It's focus on clearance / wheel travel / off-road angles have kept it in the off-roading ball park for far longer than it should have, but at such a sacrifice to safety and comfort that relatively few buyers consider it over the Jap competition. It's been the T800 vs T1000 Terminator all over again.

The D4 has a far stronger chassis / body construction - panels don't pop out of alignment at every cross-axle event. It's TR system will provide greater traction than any standard Defender-type design could ever hope for. The new powerplants + drivelines provide better fuel economy in virtually every environment (eg 14 l/100km on the CSR vs 16 ~ 18 l/100 for the Defenders). The downside of all this new technology is cost - cost to purchase, cost to modify and cost to understand.

The new "Defender" can start with a fresh design sheet. Let's hope it combines the best of the T5/T7 design.

Cheers,

Gordon

Thank you for that Gordon that was a good read and pretty much sums it all up I reckon. Same with Tote his last post puts everything in perspective as well.

I fully expected this topic to create some interest and I thought it would last a few days and end up at a few dozen interesting posts, well several weeks later it cracked a 1,000, which as far as I can tell is one of the largest actual Land Rover specific threads discussing four wheel driving on the forum.

So maybe it is time to move on.

thank you everyone who contributed to this thread.

The Space Shuttle Program came to mind many, many posts ago.


Almost exactly the same reasons ..... there was nothing left for NASA to do, it just couldn't be upgraded or modified anymore. It had come to a developmental Dead Zone.


Ant that is obviously no disrespect ... It's just a 'Life Of Type' reality.

What a fantastic develpmental dead zone to be left with!

Cheers

Originally Posted by ozscott

What a fantastic develpmental dead zone to be left with!

Cheers

Indeed mate.


Too true.

Originally Posted by TerryO

Neither do I Andy, there are a number of very capable 4x4's that have independent suspension and run rings around live axle 4x4's.

The picture below shows one of them that has all round independent suspension and comes with 35's standard and makes every Land Rover ever made look like soft roaders, Defenders included.

There is a video somewhere on Aulro from several years ago of some Aulro members in their various Landy's including a Pinzgauer playing in, if I remember rightly, a old abandoned quarry up around Newcastle some where and there was a Humvee there, it just toyed with them all. You are right about the Pinzgauer it nearly fell over trying to go up a reasonably steep rock face, looked the least stable vehicle there.

Add on the aftermarket six inch lift air suspension that you can buy for them and the giant tyres that can fit them and they are virtually unstoppable.

There's also a video of a Hummer stuck on a beach and a bloke in an FJ Cruiser continually driving by it ,I've driven a Hummer,it takes a special type of designer to make a vehicle 7 feet wide but give the passengers less room than a '60's mini . Pat

The yankie marines in the Gulf war were more than happy to trade their HumVees for the 6x6 desert patrol Land Rovers(no they were NEVER a DEFENDER)
It has been discussed before when Ford owned JLR they tried to get the patents for the the 6x6 Perenties,fortunately it was registered with the Australian Army not JLR so no Pehwma powered 6x6 Rangers
Had a sit in one once.









Andrew