Thread: Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

Originally Posted by jon3950

I'm not suggesting that price and ease of modification aren't advantages, just that they are irrelevant to this discussion.

It is very relevant. You could have paid AUD$832,743 for a special edition factory Defender. (The 2millionth one). You could pay near disco price for a special edition.

But why would you? When you could choose a much less expensive non-special for the comparo.

Yes - the OP's "now you can pay as much as a disco" is his premise - but is that realistic or valid when don't (didn't) have to pay that much.

Totally different matter and totally valid if the standard models were all at near Disco price levels. But they aren't.

The comparo can be made more valid if it is no longer "compare stock models now they are at similar prices" and is changed to "let's compare a special edition defender to a stock disco, now that they are similarly priced" then fine.

In this latter (theoretically adjusted) comparo specifically between the more expensive special edition defender and a disco:
- you can not say you are paying more for less vehicle. The premium paid for a special edition defender is for intangibles like special badges, paint, upholstery, etc. You wouldn't pay the premium if you thought it not worth the premium.

- the special edition premium features don't add to the special defender's "off-road performance" - off-road performance being a key part of the OPs comparo requirement.

- just like the onroad performance and safety features of the disco (comes with the disco price) don't make it any better off-road either

Now you got yourself a real comparo. Two premium priced vehicles delivering premium features which don't enhance off-road performance. Neither vehicle a case of "less vehicle for the price". Both deliver similar off-road performance.

Decision then comes down to whether, for the price, you want a disco like every other new disco owner has (along with its luxuries and gizmos). Or do you want a relatively rarer and distinctive special edition Defender. Choice will be decided by what you value more. Neither the lesser vehicle. (Overall, or off-road)

And the third option is two Defenders for the price of one D4 (or Special Edition Defender with inflated price). A new(ish) 110 for $50K and a new(ish) 90 for $40K. Choose one for bush work and one for posterity

I'm not so sure why some are so hung up about prices, yes I did comment about it but it is only a small part of this and doesn't effect one way or the other off road ability in this comparison, I have some stats on prices though that make for interesting reading when I get a chance to write it all up later.

As for the more important points when comparing off road ability, so far after reading back through all the comments it would appear that there is not much argument about D3/D4's having a stronger and more sturdy chassis, axles, cv's, diff's, gearbox, possibly drive shafts.

I think several other things can be added to that list as well starting off with better brakes and stability control, engines.

Others please feel free to add both strengths and weaknesses.

Originally Posted by TerryO

I'm not so sure why some are so hung up about prices, yes I did comment about it but it is only a small part of this and doesn't effect one way or the other off road ability in this comparison, I have some stats on prices though that make for interesting reading when I get a chance to write it all up later.

As for the more important points when comparing off road ability, so far after reading back through all the comments it would appear that there is not much argument about D3/D4's having a stronger and more sturdy chassis, axles, cv's, diff's, gearbox, possibly drive shafts.

I think several other things can be added to that list as well starting off with better brakes and stability control, engines.

Others please feel free to add both strengths and weaknesses.

Ooh provocative, I like it!

It would be good to hear more from specialist indies who work on and drive both everyday, as to their thoughts on your above list of what is stronger / better...

I wouldn't buy a puma. I think they're coming close to knocking the P38a off the throne for least reliable land rover.
I don't like the ergonomics, there are that many things on any defender that I'd want to 'fix' before I could happily live with it that I find the idea of forking out $40-50k for one about as appealing as cleaning my teeth with diesel. Plus, to make it what I'd want would cost even more. I don't care that it can do xyz in stock trim, if I'm buying a car I'm damn well making it my own.
The list of things I'd want to add to a D4 would be a hell of a lot shorter than the list of things I'd want to add to a Defender.
IF I were building a Defender, I'd start with a manky old county and build it from the ground up with a motor of my choice, and several major changes.
I'm at the point where I'm starting to think about the future of a family, and I wouldn't really feel that happy about sticking my family in a Defender, short of it having a few basic (in my view) safety additions, and thats even without airbags.
Yes, sadly, the D4 is more of a throwaway vehicle, there aren't many that get stripped down to the chassis and born again as a totally different vehicle, but I think they represent far better value for money than a Puma.
And I'm not paying the Defender tax for a 20 year old vehicle

Buying a D4 has caused me no end of grief...

Bugger all to do on the damn thing to make it awesome

Originally Posted by MrLandy

Very interesting post Jon. So you're saying your three year old D4 is worth about the same as a new 110 and that you're changing over for personal reasons?

That must be a difficult decision given how much everyone seems to love their D4's. I guess warranty and long term ownership might come into it, but I hope it's mainly for the character .

I hope you love the character of your new Defender and that this outweighs the reduction in creature comforts. Although I reckon the seating position in a Defender is without peer and also with aircon and TC it's a great balance between utilitarian, functional and comfortable. I prefer the utilitarian nature of my newish Defender over a more luxurious vehicle, partly because I don't worry so much about getting it dirty, but also because the seating position and drive ability of the Defender suits me better. It's not as heavy and feels more nimble on all roads.

Best wishes

Apologies to Terry if this is too far off topic but I think it has some relevance to the discussion.

Yes, I'm basically breaking even swapping the 3 year old D4 for a new (non limited edition) 110.

I do love my Disco. Its a brilliant vehicle and I will be very sorry to see it go. In reality it is a far more suitable vehicle for my needs than a Defender as it does everything I need it to do really well. Warranty and long term ownership were not part of the equation, nor was off-road capability.

I'm getting a Defender because they are fun to drive.

Cheers,
Jon

Originally Posted by tact

It is very relevant. You could have paid AUD$832,743 for a special edition factory Defender. (The 2millionth one). You could pay near disco price for a special edition.

But why would you? When you could choose a much less expensive non-special for the comparo.

Yes - the OP's "now you can pay as much as a disco" is his premise - but is that realistic or valid when don't (didn't) have to pay that much.

Totally different matter and totally valid if the standard models were all at near Disco price levels. But they aren't.

The comparo can be made more valid if it is no longer "compare stock models now they are at similar prices" and is changed to "let's compare a special edition defender to a stock disco, now that they are similarly priced" then fine.

In this latter (theoretically adjusted) comparo specifically between the more expensive special edition defender and a disco:
- you can not say you are paying more for less vehicle. The premium paid for a special edition defender is for intangibles like special badges, paint, upholstery, etc. You wouldn't pay the premium if you thought it not worth the premium.

- the special edition premium features don't add to the special defender's "off-road performance" - off-road performance being a key part of the OPs comparo requirement.

- just like the onroad performance and safety features of the disco (comes with the disco price) don't make it any better off-road either

Now you got yourself a real comparo. Two premium priced vehicles delivering premium features which don't enhance off-road performance. Neither vehicle a case of "less vehicle for the price". Both deliver similar off-road performance.

Decision then comes down to whether, for the price, you want a disco like every other new disco owner has (along with its luxuries and gizmos). Or do you want a relatively rarer and distinctive special edition Defender. Choice will be decided by what you value more. Neither the lesser vehicle. (Overall, or off-road)

In my case I am getting less vehicle for the price as I am swapping my D4 for standard 110. OK its newer but the 3 year old Disco would probably be more reliable.

But you are right in saying its the intangibles that make up the value. My point was that for neither vehicle is it the off-road capabilities out of the box, as both have it in spades - just in a different form.

Pretty much everything that has been identified so far are just examples of other features that are important to people - like the ability to modify, or comfort, or price.

Cheers,
Jon