Thread: Towing vs. Being over gvm

Originally Posted by Redback

Wasn't planning on using the seat belt at all, just removing the seats temporarily, like we have with the third row seat, saving weight.

Removing the seat belts infers you're removing the seats permenently, according to Mr Policeman and makes your vehicle illegal in NSW.

Obviously my point is that if you remove the seats you have removed the functionality of the seat belts so on the splitting hairs definitions and rules you blokes say that NSW applies you have removed the seat belts! I would like to see the actual rules before believing this stuff.

I suppose my Skoda Yeti is illegal because you can take the seats out in 1 minute as part of the luggage configuration alternatives by unclipping them as described in the manual. Glad I live in WA!!

Originally Posted by BobD

Obviously my point is that if you remove the seats you have removed the functionality of the seat belts so on the splitting hairs definitions and rules you blokes say that NSW applies you have removed the seat belts! I would like to see the actual rules before believing this stuff.

I suppose my Skoda Yeti is illegal because you can take the seats out in 1 minute as part of the luggage configuration alternatives by unclipping them as described in the manual. Glad I live in WA!!

NSW goes it's own way on many things. Their Heavy Vehicle laws are unique. Ask me how I know...

Thing is, with Federal Interstate plates they can enforce their laws, regardless of the home state of the truck. With interstate registered cars, not so much.

Originally Posted by Chops

I wonder how that works (Police wise) if your just passing through (?).

All vehicles regardless of it's State of origin, must comply with that States rules, I'm talking VIC and NSW that I know of anyway

Originally Posted by IvanR

I don't know about other States, but in Vic it is quite simple.

Seats require seat belts.
Seat belts don't require seats.

Ivan

Correct, on a tempory basis

Originally Posted by johntins

The car complies in it's state of registration. All it needs to do.

Incorrect, VIC Police has fined vehicles from NSW in a 4WD blitz they had last year, 2 4WDs from NSW were given defects.

Originally Posted by johntins

NSW goes it's own way on many things. Their Heavy Vehicle laws are unique. Ask me how I know...

Thing is, with Federal Interstate plates they can enforce their laws, regardless of the home state of the truck. With interstate registered cars, not so much.

Yep they are pretty stiff on anything regardless of the State.

As far as I'm aware vehicle regs are federal, so you have to comply with that States regs, just like you have to comply with the road rules in each State.

Originally Posted by BobD

Obviously my point is that if you remove the seats you have removed the functionality of the seat belts so on the splitting hairs definitions and rules you blokes say that NSW applies you have removed the seat belts! I would like to see the actual rules before believing this stuff.

I suppose my Skoda Yeti is illegal because you can take the seats out in 1 minute as part of the luggage configuration alternatives by unclipping them as described in the manual. Glad I live in WA!!

No Bob, the Skoda isn't illegal - because the seat removal is considered Temporary...

Permanent removal without re-compliance is illegal.
Including in Sand Groper country...

The key word is temporary... and nothing is gained by the removal of side seat belts in a vehicle if just the seat needs to come out for a while... therefore, if spotted with no seats and no belts (and not stripped for post crash repair etc) then the modification would be considered permanent and a potential to be fined etc..

The WA form for approval of seat removal is "LK01"

Originally Posted by Redback

Incorrect, VIC Police has fined vehicles from NSW in a 4WD blitz they had last year, 2 4WDs from NSW were given defects.

Did anyone challenge the infringements? I would. The coppers don't actually know much about the law, as I have proved on a few occasions at a Magistrate's Court. They simply don't expect people to fight. As to the defects, did the interstate owners present their cars to Vicroads to have the defect cleared? I'll bet not. Getting booked does NOT constitute a legal precedent. ALL tickets given at side of road are ALLEGED offences. Even RBTs.

Originally Posted by Redback

As far as I'm aware vehicle regs are federal, so you have to comply with that States regs, just like you have to comply with the road rules in each State.

Vehicle regs are not Federal, ADRs are. Federal laws aren't the States to enforce. How else do you explain that seat removal is totally legal in Vic, but not in NSW? Why are certain tyre sizes legal in Vic and NSW but not Qld?

If I get booked for not having 7 seats in my D2, or 5 in my D1 I'll go to court. It's worth it. The Magistrates don't know the law either.

Still, it's each person's risk, I guess.

As I said, according to these definitions you have removed the seat belts by removing the seats. Why are the side belts different from the buckles or the middle seat? It just depends on the whim of the inspector as to whether he agrees with your interpretation or not from what I am reading here.

I would like to see proof that someone has actually been in trouble for removing a seat and a seatbelt. I and many others have certainly removed the stupid rear seat and seatbelts from a Patrol for example without recompliance. In WA there is no roadworthy checking after a vehicle is licensed so it would be interesting to see how such a rule would be policed. Currently I would say it is never policed, at least in WA.

Here is the actual rule for Australia:


4 REMOVAL OF SEAT(S) AND SEATBELT(S) TO REDUCE SEATING CAPACITY
Seats and seatbelts may be permanently removed to reduce seating capacity of the vehicle.
The vehicle must be certified to represent the new seating capacity. All holes in the bodywork
must be blanked off.
Any removal of seats and/or seatbelts to achieve a reduction in seating capacity must not
interfere with the vehicle’s Supplementary Restraint System (SRS). For example removing a
front seat and seatbelts with pre-tensioners may disarm the entire vehicle SRS and therefore
would not be able to be certified.
If the reduction in seating capacity results in a change of vehicle category the signatory must
show that the vehicle complies with all additional ADRs that may now apply to that vehicle.

The tricky thing would be whether removal of the seats affects the performance of the side airbags in a D3 or D4.

As Tombie said, the rule for certification seems to apply only to permanently removed seats and seat belts. There is no indication that removing seatbelts is any different to removing seats and there is no link that makes temporary removal of seatbelts suddenly mean that the removal of seats is permanent.

Good luck to us all in identifying whether seat removal is temporary or permanent for the purpose of whether certification is required or not.

Originally Posted by Tombie

Permanent removal without re-compliance is illegal.
Including in Sand Groper country...

But not in Victoria, as the Vicroads website, and the compliance PDF, clearly show.