Thread: Aluminium bulkheads on series 1's ? didnt know that?

A couple of errors of fact - no Hurricanes used a wooden structure, although early Hurricane 1s were fabric covered and the fabric covered fuselage was retained for all Hurricanes, but with stressed skin metal wings. This contrasts with the all metal stressed skin airframe of the Spitfire.

There were around 16,000 Hurricanes built, compared to around 20,000 Spitfires, so the discrepancy was not all that great. But the Hurricane is much more easily maintained than the Spitfire, mainly due to the elliptical plan wing on the latter which means every bit of metal in the wing has a three dimensional curve and is different from every other bit.

Getting back to the subject of firewalls. Another possibility is that the pressed firewalls were the production limiting factor (once the press is going flat out you can't increase production without making another die, which is both slow and expensive), and perhaps a few alloy firewalls were made from time to time just to speed up a batch for a particular order which was otherwise going to be late. The supplemental production would have been a lot slower than the pressed production, so they would not go into sequential chassis numbers, but would get slotted in as each one was finished.

John

Originally Posted by series1buff

Well thats debateable . Britain turned out a massive amount of militatry hardware during WW2 . Even Germany , bombed beyond description, increased production of aircraft and tanks in 1944, despite the bombing.

Britain set up shadow factories in case of bombing.. for example all of the Merlin carbies wer made at one location, they set up a shadow factory making them at 2 locations, this was done with other items too .

MIKE

Yes quite true
But the immediate post war years were filled with a lack of raw materials. raw materials that during the war years were purchased using Loans. This stopped immediately. The Land rover was a result of this, where aluminum was stockpiled for aircraft production and was already in the country, where steel was not.
There is also the fact that after so many years of war and hard production that England had run its infrastructure down. The railways were shot. Heavy plant was worn out etc. The skilled labor force built up during the war years went home and back to the kitchen to be replaced by EX service man returning who were not as skilled.
interesting story along those lines. the cindered cored projectile for the British 25 pounder which was initially needed / used by the allies in Africa after Rommel turned up. Was conceived and developed by a 15 year old apprentice. Being one of two only remaining trades people out of a pre war staff of 9. After the war his apprenticeship was canceled to make room for an ex-service man.

Originally Posted by JDNSW

A couple of errors of fact - no Hurricanes used a wooden structure, although early Hurricane 1s were fabric covered and the fabric covered fuselage was retained for all Hurricanes, but with stressed skin metal wings. This contrasts with the all metal stressed skin airframe of the Spitfire.

There were around 16,000 Hurricanes built, compared to around 20,000 Spitfires, so the discrepancy was not all that great. But the Hurricane is much more easily maintained than the Spitfire, mainly due to the elliptical plan wing on the latter which means every bit of metal in the wing has a three dimensional curve and is different from every other bit.

Getting back to the subject of firewalls. Another possibility is that the pressed firewalls were the production limiting factor (once the press is going flat out you can't increase production without making another die, which is both slow and expensive), and perhaps a few alloy firewalls were made from time to time just to speed up a batch for a particular order which was otherwise going to be late. The supplemental production would have been a lot slower than the pressed production, so they would not go into sequential chassis numbers, but would get slotted in as each one was finished.

John

true the hurricane was of tube construction bolted together with wooden slats then bolted to that. With the exception of the turtle deck and control surfaces which were of all wooden construction. The Mk11 conversion to aluminum covered wings was as simple as covering the existing tube wing construction with aluminum.
The biggest problem for restores of spitfires was not the wing surface, although this was the main serviceability problem during the war. But was the wing spars. Being octagonal tubes slipped inside of each other and then bent (cranked). Unable to be disassembled and inspected and more often than not rusty in side.

hurricane production was all but over by 1944. The spitfire remained in production until 1952

As for you thoughts of aluminum firewalls being fitted on the line. I must agree. Regardless of if it was a delay in delivery of the pressed firewalls or the inability of the press to keep up with production etc. it makes sense

Originally Posted by JDNSW

Getting back to the subject of firewalls. Another possibility is that the pressed firewalls were the production limiting factor (once the press is going flat out you can't increase production without making another die, which is both slow and expensive), and perhaps a few alloy firewalls were made from time to time just to speed up a batch for a particular order which was otherwise going to be late. The supplemental production would have been a lot slower than the pressed production, so they would not go into sequential chassis numbers, but would get slotted in as each one was finished.

John

That John; is the most sensible hypothesis I have read on either forum!

Whether or not it is the case I suppose we will never know

Did you know that the Mk 1 Spitfire had fabric covered ailerons that were not too flash in high-speed dives? I think I will stick with Land-Rovers

Cheers Charlie

Originally Posted by chazza

...........

Did you know that the Mk 1 Spitfire had fabric covered ailerons that were not too flash in high-speed dives? I think I will stick with Land-Rovers

Cheers Charlie

Yes, I was aware that, in common with most other contemporary aircraft, despite the all metal airframe, the control surfaces were fabric covered. But the problem with aileron reversal at high speed was not due to the fabric covering, but that at high speed the load on the ailerons twisted the wing, acting effectively as a servo. This was countered in the Spitfire 21 (1944) which featured a 47% increase in wing torsional stiffness by increasing the thickness of the wing plating and redesigning the spar. The last Spitfire was delivered in October 1947. Its successor, the Spiteful, never entered service, at first because the improved Spitfires meant it had to be continually developed, and then because jet fighters were obviously the future.

John

Originally Posted by clean32

ok I didn’t know that. And its a good question

The first 1500 S1 had a steel fabricated firewall and not a pressed one. from 49-53 they produced pressed firewalls and then reverted back to fabricated firewalls again similar to what we have today. ( is that correct)

Yes

The main difference between the first 1500 was that the gearstick was mounted to a platform on the transmission tunnel where the pressed ones had the gear lever arrangement we knew for the rest of series production. Producing the modification of the original design would have been a rather simple change of the vertical panel above the bell housing.


Marco T's R860048

One idea that would be far harder to prove: What if the Aluminium firewalls where accidentally on purpose? The employee at LR wants a S1 and realises the winter salt will eat the firewall pretty quickly, so him and a few mates "accidentally" fabricate a firewall from excess body panels, now if they sell this car after a few years or it ends up going to export insted of to their local dealer they have to do it all again and make another aluminium firewall.

Originally Posted by frantic

One idea that would be far harder to prove: What if the Aluminium firewalls where accidentally on purpose? The employee at LR wants a S1 and realises the winter salt will eat the firewall pretty quickly, so him and a few mates "accidentally" fabricate a firewall from excess body panels, now if they sell this car after a few years or it ends up going to export insted of to their local dealer they have to do it all again and make another aluminium firewall.

An intriguing idea, but I suspect that very few actual employees in that era could afford a car of any kind, even if they could get the coupons for petrol, and they had not been in production long enough for the rust problems to become apparent.

John