Thread: Dislocate or Retain?

Originally Posted by discowhite

get off your bike champ!
i just knew that when i saw this thread....again..that you would pop in
i dont give a flying **** what you think, everyone has an oppinion and if i want to run re location cones i will, if you dont want to fine.

see how the world works

glad to see you have one set of rules for me and one for yourself......that must be a double standard bike you rode in on CHAMP!

and when you saw this thread you also knew that there would be other "repeat offenders" like Dougal, IsuzuRover, Big Jon, Slunnie etc etc....but didnt take them to task...

I dont care what a person chooses to run...we are here to discuss and learn. There are a few guys here that REALLY know there stuff, I dont consider myself one of them. Im happy to be pointed out as being wrong and learn something. What you did is just have a go at me because YOU DONT LIKE WHAT I SAY....need a tissue??? Did I have a go at anyone? Did I call someone stupid etc? nope but you started by backing up someone elses claim with nothing but a pot stir....

PROVIDE SOME TECH....and if you dont like what I say either correct me (YES IM HAPPY TO LEARN FROM ANYONE INCLUDING YOU) or dont bother with me as you clearly dont like me.....dont worry I'll get over it!


Now, here is how I see the Antidive/Antisquat thing:

looking at the stock rear or front of coil sprung rovers (Def, RR and Disco 1's) they run (realitive to purpose off road vehicles) High % AS/AD. when you have down travel this % only gets higher. The more down travel the more the AS/AD increases. This inturn has the effect of wanting to drive the axle further (forward in the rear, and rearward in the front) under the vehicle rather than driving the vehicle forward. Its not that desirable but can be over come to a degree with carefull/skilled driving....considering alot of vehicles with unretained springs that we are talking about are lifted as well, they are only compounding the AS/AD % and add larger tyres and it raises again....the more the rasie in ride height AS/AD the more percentile increase in AS/AD during down travel.

My point is if using the stock geometry and rasing the vehicle on springs and tyres the desirable amount of wheel travel is (in my opinion) obtainable with retained springs, which have the benift of maintaing a more balanced vehicle, especially on side slopes with cross axle articulation happening.

regarding the set up of any rig,as the front end is less compliant, Id start with that and get it to its maximum potential (that you are happy with) and then balance the rear to suit....even with maybe 20% more flex in the rear....

at the end of the day it doesnt matter what you run in your rig as long as its safe and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

Serg

Do your "auto" lockers need touque on both axles to work Dannie? I seem to recall you, (or someone else?) saying something about it. I'm guessing this is one of the reasons you're after a bit more flex????

Tim

Originally Posted by uninformed

and when you saw this thread you also knew that there would be other "repeat offenders" like Dougal, IsuzuRover, Big Jon, Slunnie etc etc....but didnt take them to task...

Serg

Hardly offenders. Just the people that have an interest, have bothered to learn and have spent time playing with suspension and understand it. Removing the "offenders" wont add to the richness of the response to the intial question. Post away Serg, I always like reading your thoughts on suspension design and manufacture.

***moves camp chair back from the flames..

Originally Posted by Dougal

Clunk, sproing, clunk, bang.

If your springs dislocate, then they're not long enough. Adding another spring inside a metal top-hat isn't the ideal solution.
X-Eng Testing new spring location system

The X thingy isn't an ideal solution, but its as close to duplicating the action of a coilover suspension setup as you will get with a regular coil suspension setup.

Originally Posted by uninformed

glad to see you have one set of rules for me and one for yourself......that must be a double standard bike you rode in on CHAMP!

and when you saw this thread you also knew that there would be other "repeat offenders" like Dougal, IsuzuRover, Big Jon, Slunnie etc etc....but didnt take them to task...

I dont care what a person chooses to run...we are here to discuss and learn. There are a few guys here that REALLY know there stuff, I dont consider myself one of them. Im happy to be pointed out as being wrong and learn something. What you did is just have a go at me because YOU DONT LIKE WHAT I SAY....need a tissue??? Did I have a go at anyone? Did I call someone stupid etc? nope but you started by backing up someone elses claim with nothing but a pot stir....

PROVIDE SOME TECH....and if you dont like what I say either correct me (YES IM HAPPY TO LEARN FROM ANYONE INCLUDING YOU) or dont bother with me as you clearly dont like me.....dont worry I'll get over it!


Now, here is how I see the Antidive/Antisquat thing:

looking at the stock rear or front of coil sprung rovers (Def, RR and Disco 1's) they run (realitive to purpose off road vehicles) High % AS/AD. when you have down travel this % only gets higher. The more down travel the more the AS/AD increases. This inturn has the effect of wanting to drive the axle further (forward in the rear, and rearward in the front) under the vehicle rather than driving the vehicle forward. Its not that desirable but can be over come to a degree with carefull/skilled driving....considering alot of vehicles with unretained springs that we are talking about are lifted as well, they are only compounding the AS/AD % and add larger tyres and it raises again....the more the rasie in ride height AS/AD the more percentile increase in AS/AD during down travel.

My point is if using the stock geometry and rasing the vehicle on springs and tyres the desirable amount of wheel travel is (in my opinion) obtainable with retained springs, which have the benift of maintaing a more balanced vehicle, especially on side slopes with cross axle articulation happening.

regarding the set up of any rig,as the front end is less compliant, Id start with that and get it to its maximum potential (that you are happy with) and then balance the rear to suit....even with maybe 20% more flex in the rear....

at the end of the day it doesnt matter what you run in your rig as long as its safe and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy

Serg

I see your point, but at what point of travel does the axle want walk under as opposed to pushing. Whilst there is some pushing action it has to be seen as benificial. Also while ever the wheel is aft/ rearward of the control arm chassis mounts it would have to be transmiting a level of forward drive.

Hmm, entering the ****ing contest here, armed a little short

Those who poo poo dislocating coils, have any of you tried them or is it just theory? just I've read heaps on this over the years and personally have no need, as most all I do, is higher speed stuff, so only require reasonable articulation, because I seem to read that just about all those that feel dislocating coils are a good thing, have tried them and maintain the same opinion that they are good, I've rarely read that someone has tried them and not liked them, in a real life scenario

I'm well aware, that some people will defend and support their decision, whether its good or bad, see this all the time,vehicle/fridge/tyres!/whatever purchase, but being the type of person stupid enough to try things before making an opinion, even after I've spent either alot of time or money and to say it was a crap idea, I'd like to know, who's tried disclocating coils, some details and why they are crap?

Dougal? Serg? looking straight at you lot

Serious Q by the way

Originally Posted by TimNZ

Do your "auto" lockers need touque on both axles to work Dannie? I seem to recall you, (or someone else?) saying something about it. I'm guessing this is one of the reasons you're after a bit more flex????

Tim

I currently have a TruTrack in the front which is what I think I have talked to you about. This will be changed soonish to a full locker. (That's a whole other discussion though )

I am in the middle of changing my suspension setup. At the moment it is basically stock. I have some softish 3"+ springs on the way, with raised shock turrets and rear mounts. I'm leaning towards Gigglepin Trailing arms, and will be running some Custom Radius Arms. Once I have them all together, I will measure up and order some shocks to suit. That is why I was asking about retaining or dislocating.

Thanks to all for the replies and differing views so far. It has given me a lot to think about.