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Thread: The Grey Box of EVIL.. (aka autotransmission)

  1. #31
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    Ok onto the planetaries...

    These things are great.... you can get 6 different ratios 8 if you include the 1:1 and the neutral. they also withstand mamoth levels of torque for their size.. (yes this is one of the things I do like about autos)

    they consist of 3 major sub assemblies (im not counting bearings)

    first is the Sun gear, the little one in the middle.
    second is the planetary gears and carrier these make the next ring
    third is the outer gear, the annulus or ring gear.

    there are some simple rules to a planetry gear set these are

    1. if nothing is held stationary you have neutral
    2. if 2 parts are locked to each other you get 1:1
    3. if the sun gear is driving you achieve a reduction
    4. If the planetry carrier is driving you achive overdrive
    5. If the planetry carrier is held you achive reverse.

    below shows the plan layout of a simple planetry and one in use from a power screwdriver.

    plntg2.gif
    plntgr.jpg

    they get their robustness from the multiple torque paths that are provided by the 3 gears in the planetry, they usually use a minimum of 3 gears for locating reasons but 5 is common and for very high torque applications 7 are not unheard of.

    they most commonly use hunting ratios so that wear is easily controlled.

    now depending on the individual configuration of the gear box your clutches and brakes will hold or apply drive to various components within the planetry and most boxes have 2 sets in them to provide their ratios and reverse..

    which leads me into the next posting... The brain...
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  2. #32
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    So heres where it happens, the brain...

    this magical assembly of spool valves, one way valves, regulating valves, galleries and restrictions is what makes everything work....

    Im not going to cover the actual assembley of the brain more what influences it and the base logic of how it makes it decisions...

    Excluding electronic brains which use electronics in place of hydraulics they basically follow the same sort of setup.


    There are several inputs to the brain.. 2 of these are external from the box and are driver inputs.. and there are 3 internal inputs

    The 2 external inputs are the throttle position and the range selection.

    The throttle sensor is there to let the gearbox know how much power is being applied from the engine and delays the upshift and increases the clamping pressure applied to the actuators for the brakes/clutches.

    The range selector is there to let the gear box know what gears its allowed to play with.

    the main internal inputs are Main oil pressure, Turbine speed and Vehicle Speed.

    The main oil pressure is primarily used to stop anything from happening until its got enough pressure for lubrication and actuation of things... much like the low oil warning light on the engine. It also provides some of the input for the control of the converter lockup.

    the turbine speed is soley used to control the converter lockup in conjuction with the throttle input and main oil pressure.


    The vehicle speed input is soley for controling upshifts and downshifts.

    most of what occours inside the brain is a balancing act. The pressure from one set of inputs works against the pressure from the the others and then does its thing to restore this balance when there is enough imbalance...

    so in a nutshell the main blances are....

    Turbine speed versus impeller speed via the throttle sensor for the lockup control.

    when there is too much speed difference lockup is not allowed... when the turbine speed reaches a certain speed the pressure from its pump provides enough pressure to permit actuation of the lockup clutch. in some boxes there is a seconday input from the main pump via the throttle position sensor that will allow lockup to occour at other than full RPM's


    for gear selection the range selection control simply opens and closes ports and one way valves enabeling or disabling actuators as required.

    Automatic gear selection is achieved by balancing the output speed input against the throttle pressure input..

    this is not quite that simple, each gear has its own "restriction size" and the taller the gear the greater the restriction, the reason why this is will become apparent...

    When you mash the loud pedal the gear box gets the go right now message, maximum pressure is applied to the brakes and clutches and the lowest acceptable gear for the current speed is selected, the converter is unlocked and your outa there. This is when the gear box is in the kickdown mode.

    when you back off the noise a little the balancing act resumes. As the vehicle speeds up pressure on the speed input rises and eventually overcomes the throttle pressure and the next gear up is selected. When the next gear is selected the restriction size changes and the balance is off set a little not enough to push it back to kick down but enough to let the gearbox know that your still accelerating.

    When you ease off to the point of cruising both pressures balance out so nothing happens other than there is a relaxing of pressure holding the brakes and clutches.

    when you back right off and let the vehicle roll the pressure from the speed input is a lot higher than the throttle pressure so the box will shift up to the highest gear permissable.... (another part of the reason why autos dont like engine braking downhill). eventually the vehicle speed will drop down enough that the input speed pressure is so low the box will downshift.


    And that ladies and gentlemen is the basic 101 behind automatic gearboxes... Its not perfect in all respects but its close enough to let you have a "working knowledge" of them.

    the last post will cover the pros and cons of autos.... As I see them....
    Last edited by Blknight.aus; 5th November 2006 at 10:05 PM.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  3. #33
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    The pros and the cons of the Auto box..... ( I will try to be unbias) These are based on a box that is working properly in the first place...

    The pros...

    they're easy to drive, kinda point and shoot
    They dont crunch gears on changes.
    per physical size they're some 30% tougher than a manual
    They're softer on drive line parts
    very hard to stall
    excellent for hill climbs and towing
    easy economy in the city.
    excellent creeping.
    easy to work up onto obstacles.

    The cons...
    Very dependent on good oiling and cooling
    complicated operation/high parts count and cost
    Fine tolerances on working components
    Difficult to push start, if its achievable
    heavier than an equivilently rated manual
    poor engine braking
    poor economy on highway
    poor control of overspeed when "finessing" vehicle speed
    Cost
    Return to nuetral in the event of failure.

    Before anyone asks.. my "I have a squillion dollars to spend" driveline.

    A torque converter with a manually operated clutch driving a 6 speed dual countershaft main box with a planetry range shifter in front of a dual speed transfer case providing drive through a planetry drive center diff out via magnetic retarders into amboid diffs with torque plates and saddle bearings.

    For the offroader version youd also get amboid hubs with planetry finals. But I mainly do towing and limit myslef to mild offroad so theyre kind of overkill.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  4. #34
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    thats interesting informative stuff Dave!
    Your taking away the 'blackbox' mystique of it all.
    The amount of cumulative knowledge that goes into building a car is amazing to me!
    Cheers
    Edddo

  5. #35
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    Pretty sure you put fluid in a transmission not oil

  6. #36
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    nahhh pretty sure its got to be an oil... if it was just a fluid I could fill it with beer....

    I know I go better when Ive had a couple poured down my filler, not sure how that'd go with an automatic transmission tho.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  7. #37
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    Great explanation. Thanks for the knowledge. Well reading this and what I have seen with my setup. There is only one thing I would like to change and that is the cooling. I need a much bigger cooler! Might run out of space if this keeps up!

  8. #38
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    actually I dont find over speed finesseing a problem,,

    thats what the box is for,,

    and if your thinking hi-speed as in top gear,,

    its locked up to the engine
    so auto/manual engine braking
    should be the same.

    in fact its a LOT quicker to go 4th 3rd in my D2 than go 5th 4th in my D1

    this will be the same regardless of fuel used
    "How long since you've visited The Good Oil?"

    '93 V8 Rossi
    '97 to '07. sold.
    '01 V8 D2
    '06 to 10. written off.
    '03 4.6 V8 HSE D2a with Tornado ECM
    '10 to '21
    '16.5 RRS SDV8
    '21 to Infinity and Beyond!


    1988 Isuzu Bus. V10 15L NA Diesel
    Home is where you park it..

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  9. #39
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    sorry pedro, Ive written that badly... Overspeed control is when the vehicle is going faster thanyou want it to...

    think along the lines of Ive just crawled the front right hand wheel up a step over and need to slow down instantly to stop the vehicle from walking over and something bad happening.

    Ok the auto makes it easier to get up in the first place and in the manual you would have been relying on momentum and clutch slip to get you up.

    but once your up since your riding the clutch punch it and you stop, with the auto as soon as the load comes off the speed will increase due to the effect of the torque converter.

    same same coming down the other side.. with the manual pick 1 low and let the clutch up and it will walk over under engine control where as the auto will run away, or overspeed... hence poor overspeed control...

    Its easy to avoid if your a well experienced driver and are expeciting it to come, can left foot brake and have good feel for it, but put nuff nuff off the street in and say, "walk the front wheel up and over yon boulder" Its a fair bet with an auto your looking at a busted side step.
    Dave

    "In a Landrover the other vehicle is your crumple zone."

    For spelling call Rogets, for mechanicing call me.

    Fozzy, 2.25D SIII Ex DCA Ute
    Tdi autoManual d1 (gave it to the Mupion)
    Archaeoptersix 1990 6x6 dual cab(This things staying)


    If you've benefited from one or more of my posts please remember, your taxes paid for my skill sets, I'm just trying to make sure you get your monies worth.
    If you think you're in front on the deal, pay it forwards.

  10. #40
    slug_burner is offline TopicToaster Gold Subscriber
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    Blknight.aus,

    Thank you for the very informative tutorial.

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