Thread: Filtermag - Does it Work or is it Snake Oil?

Alas Bombardier , I too am an employee of the big Australian ,and Id guess that we run 10 times as many pieces of Mobile equipment ranging from 100 to 3000 HP to our little trains at 6000HP .
This Cold start thing , you must be joking !!! It appears that most of the big miners run 24/7 365 days of the year . WHAT COLD START ?
Metal on metal contact on start up ? What on earth are using for Lubricant that allows this ?
Not meaning to be judgemental , but what you do in your tiny patch is up to you , just dont begin to think that everybody , everywhere does the same thing .
Perhaps you have a "E-room " we could futher discuss your issues and solutions .
Exactly whom does your "oil analysis " Is it on-line ?

Originally Posted by 400HPONGAS

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Bombardier , I too am in the mining industry , It seems your Reliability Engineering has taken a wierd turn ! Instead of finding out the root cause of high particle counts for FE , you choose to eleiminate the symptom by having magnets attract the evidence . Magnets are usually used for LARGE particle analysis along with "Chip detection " technology . Perhaps the fitting of some 2 micron bypass filters could do the same thing as those dumb magnets.

yep, I agree.

Originally Posted by Bombardier

I am not sure that you are thinking correctly.

All engines ( unless they have a pre start up lube pressure cycle - that is a pump or other method pre lubricates the engine and builds up the engine oil pressure) have metal on metal contact at start up. These particles are very small and in the micron range that will easily pass through a full pressure oil system. The bypass oil systems will capture some of these particles if the oil they are suspended in happens to be filtered by the bypass filter.

This type of metal is the most problematic as it act considerably like grinding paste. It wears/polishes away at the close tolerance areas until they are no longer in tolerance. The lage metal particles/fragments you are talking about are the result of either complete failure of the oil to lubricate and/or cool the part or as a result of metal fatigue.

The reason both the filter and the oil is sent away for oil analysis is so the complete picture can be viewed and a correct decision(if needed) can be made.

The science is sound and the results I have found and heard about using these devices are quite credible. They are used by BHP Billiton with great success on their mining fleet and as stated have shown excellent results.

As the full pressure filters on the mining engines are considerably larger and flow quite a large volume the magnets used are very much larger and rightly so.

Not meaning to be judgemental, but those who cannot grasp something should not state what they do not know.

Bombardier, respectfully NO mechanical metal on metal contact should take place at start up, if there was we would have machinery lunching itself in less than half an hour.
Whatever oil film is there should be enough to form a hydrodynamic wedge of lubricant between the sliding surfaces as soon as there is relative movement. The only reason we use pressure lubrication is so that the oil film that is there doesn't overheat, contrary to popular belief the pressure does not keep the bearing surfaces apart.

I too am very familiar with UOA's and have had a bit to do with some pretty switched on people whose business is interpreting UOA results. These companies are separate to the labs testing, who while good at testing aren't very switched on at interpreting.

I'd suggest, as 400HP does that if the magnets work in the application you are talking about you have an underlying issue that needs addressing, whether it is lubricant, environment related or whatever you shouldn't need magnets in the lube system to keep machinery running.

I know operators running trucking fleets and averaging 96,000km OCI's on engines with little to no wear and while they use Fe and PQ index, as well as soot in diesels as the condemnation limit indicators they don't use magnets, just very good oil suited and approved for their equipment and very good by-pass filtration in the form of Mann-Hummel centrifuges so they can get their extended drains with the expensive syn lubes that are being used.

If the Fe particles are large enough to cause catastrophic wear there is a major problem.

These companies are separate to the labs testing, who while good at testing aren't very switched on at interpreting.
Couldnt agree more Rick130 , CAT SOS are a prime example of "Computer generated" comment and interpretation . In my fleets we are moving towards the elimination of oil change out periods , especially with the total oil burn system attached to most of our modern earthmoving equipment . Its not strange that nowadays the cost of WASTE oil management , can and does influence the running strategies/tatics .!
the ALS Webcheck/wearcheck conglomerate have gone from strenth to strength on a worldwide scale , not bad for little mob who started up in Perth 30 years ago !!
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Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

The one magnetic sump plug wont catch everything but gives you an indication as to whats coming out.

Blkniht,

Magnetic sump, Gear-box and Diff plugs, are they standard in the OZ D2 and fit the TD5 201 Defender ?

I had a magnetic fitting that attached to the bottom of my 200 TDI. I cut the first filter open and it did have a ring of "stuff" which matched the magnetic.

My uneducated view was/is that it will not stop a problem but it seems to stop some crap from around with the oil.

Thanks

Glad we are on the same team at least here in an employment sense at least.

Not sure which area you are talking about as there are quite a few, however there is a considerable time between end of shift and start of shift machine operation these days for one.

Also, the issue of wear at startup has been known both locally and scientifically for ages. This is one of the major hurdles that oil companies have been trying to leap for quite some time, thus the reason for multigrade oils.

I can accept that some FLACS are quite content to regurgitate what they have been told over the years by oil suppliers as gospel. This is a human trait of towing the line and is quite acceptable in large corporations as it keeps the status quo to an achievable level and protects individuals from the inevitable toe cutters.

In this case you are wrong and should bow out gracefully. This type of product is achieving recognised and repeatable results and saving the operators considerable money through reduced wear and greater serviceability.

As for no metal on metal contact occurring - how then does any metal at all get into the oil and why do engines wear out?

The best option is for you to have a go yourselves.

Remember, the earth was once generally accepted to be flat until it was proven otherwise.

Getting back to topic/application - 1.these items do remove metal from oil in the manner they state.

2. Having the metal suspended/attached to the side of the filter rather than blocking the filter medium (if large enough to do so) can only be a good thing that will result in more volume of oil.

3. Automotive engines have a relatively small oil volume and so it is even more important to filter it as best you can.

Modern and some not so modern cars have their overhead cams running in machined into head carriers rather than bearings. The wearing of which results more often than not in the neccesity of replacing the cylinder head.

Just a bit off topic
I have a bit to do with the rail museum and loco engines that sit for a while
weeks - some times months. we insalled a lube priming pump to the systyem
to all the engines. You switch the prime pump on for 15 minutes or so before start up an you know that the engine is fully primed. We did a test with dial guages and you get a good indication of of how many thou the oil jacks up the crank with the running clearance of the oil.... Interesting to watch......

Bombardier , theres obviously quite a gulf between the way your Operation operates and Very large Iron ore mining operation . Perhaps we dont see this "Cold Start " phenom , because we dont shut down our equipment for shift changes (a rather simple and elegant solution , dont you think !!! perhap analogous with the surburban Taxi's )
Would you be so kind , to demonstrate exactly where "I am wrong"
I find your knowledge of even the basic concepts of Reliability engineering very strange as you appear to me more of Vendor/seller/flogger of this product than anything else.
Statement / questions like "As for no metal on metal contact occurring - how then does any metal at all get into the oil and why do engines wear out?" shows a very low level of knowledge of the assets .
Would it be possible to see the the FMEA , and resulting Primary and secondary actions that came from it that concluded that the fitting of these magnets was a sensible and defensible strategy for whatever the failure mode is that you thought you were adressing ?
So the Earth was Flat was it , etc etc , What on earth are you on about ?

Try to get your head around the fact , that you are merely adressing a SYMPTOM !!
Hiding the evidence doesnt make the root cause go away , although you think the "root cause " is these evil cold starts . Exactly what role in the assets reliability and life cycle do you actually play ?

Bombardier , theres obviously quite a gulf between the way your Operation operates and Very large Iron ore mining operation.

Forget about the ego of who has the biggest.

Interesting response to how the metal gets there as well.

So how does it get there as you seem to have all the answers?

If there is NO metal on metal contact how are these little particles created?

The original question was does this product work - the simple answer is yes.

Do I sell them? - No.

Would I? - Yes because they actually work.

Does it matter which part of the company/production stream I am from?

As to alluding to the earth being flat it would seem that you missed the entire point but for your benefit I will explain it. In the early years when the explorer Galileo was doing his thing the earth was generally accepted to be flat. When the aforementioned stated that he was going to circumnavigate the earth as he believed it was round the general consensus by the 'educated persons' (that would be you in this case) was that he would sail right off the end of the earth.

Your turn.