Hydrogen Generator

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Originally Posted by isuzurover

[mrs lovejoy voice] Won't somebody please think of the first law of thermodynamics!!! [/mrs lovejoy voice]

So, we use lots of electrical energy to make a small amount of H2 and O2 and lots of steam/water vapour.

We use lots more energy to cool the generator to limit steam production, and make sure things don't cook or explode.

EDIT - AND we get better economy from the engine????

Hmm... yes - sounds logical to me...

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thats what people are advertising it as generally yes, and its wrong.

but what if someone comes up with a way of drawing a minimal amount of energy from the electrical system to split the water into browns gas and then you inject that the same way as you do lpg fumigation. If the gain from the fumgaion assisting the combustion process was enough youd be in front, you wouldnt be beating entropy, just sneaking a little closer to it because you were using some of the energy contained in the fuel to do some work that allowed you to burn the fuel a little more efficiently.

Liken it to the blast tube in a steam engine if you will.

I must say that this is the first thread I have ever seen where someone credible has had actual experience with Browns gas and described the benefits and pitfalls.
Bit different to the 30% economy improvement.
Thanks for that.
Regards Philip A

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Originally Posted by Blknight.aus

thats what people are advertising it as generally yes, and its wrong.

but what if someone comes up with a way of drawing a minimal amount of energy from the electrical system to split the water into browns gas and then you inject that the same way as you do lpg fumigation. If the gain from the fumgaion assisting the combustion process was enough youd be in front, you wouldnt be beating entropy, just sneaking a little closer to it because you were using some of the energy contained in the fuel to do some work that allowed you to burn the fuel a little more efficiently.

Liken it to the blast tube in a steam engine if you will.

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Can we please stop calling it "browns gas"?

If you want to run an experiment, just hire a bottle of H2 and go for a drive. If you document a gain, compare that gain to the time/cost involved with producing that much hydrogen.

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Originally Posted by Dougal

Can we please stop calling it "browns gas"?

If you want to run an experiment, just hire a bottle of H2 and go for a drive. If you document a gain, compare that gain to the time/cost involved with producing that much hydrogen.

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I was just thinking along those lines.

A credible experiment would be to put and engine on a dyno, and:

(a) run it on normal fuel and measure fuel consumption (AMFC)
(b) inject small quantities of (bottled) hydrogen AMFC
(c) inject the same quantity of bottled hydrogen + a stoichiometric proportion of bottled O2 AMFC
(d) Inject the same as (b) or (c) + water/steam injection AMFC

Hmm - I have a bottle of N2+2%H2 downstairs... but using that would displace too much O2...

Guys don't misunderstand the stuff I've posted here, I was asked to lend a hand and did so out of mateship and morbid curiosity.

We had a play basically and gave up after a few weeks, the first guys motivation was to cull his fuel bills and Trev is just a bit of a nut but a good bloke who has no electronic or electrical aptitude.

I did at no stage entertain the idea of installing a system in my Rangie nor will I ever do so, I've also collaborated on a few Bio fuel projects and to be perfectly honest the only system I see as a viable alternative was the Benz wagon I helped plumb up to run strained chip oil pretty much directly from the fryers.

I am a hard core cynic but that doesn't mean I wont approach a project with an analytical mind.

Interesting point made about Hydrogen peroxide as a by product of burning Hydrogen though, cant see this as a very friendly by product especially if it took off as LPG has.

And for what its worth I also see LPG as a bit hit and miss considering in some areas LPG is nearly 72 cents per litre.

I un-installed the Gas system in my Rangie within months of buying it nearly 10 years ago.

I don't think that the breeder or orgone cells work and view it in the same light as the energy polariser of years gone by and believe that the money is better spent on a solid and quality ignition system and fuel delivery tuning.

Im not saying don't play with it though and i often wonder if a remote installation say roof mounted with far better control systems wouldn't work better but if you really want to save money and use alternate fuels then id suggest looking at CNG (Compressed natural gas) and getting a compression and containment system installed at home.

I see it in daily use every time a Milk tanker hauls itself up the long grade past my front door.

And the cost per litre would make the system pay for itself in a very short time.

But thats another threads worth i guess.

I have a large folder full of different methods of setting up hydrogen power in vehicles. I see little if any evidence that it is a total waste of time, there is some credibility to it.

Most setups do not claim to be able to run the car completely from hydrogen, as stated and agreed to, this takes up more energy than it puts out. However in the same way that a diesel gas system suplements the fuel source with lpg, the hydrogen setups suplement the fuel. According to most of them, you tune the mixture of the carby down so that the hydrogen takes up the slack. In electronic vehicles there are mods to the sensors to compensate. So leaner mixture equals less fuel usage. In many of the plans the power drain is limited because they pulse the current electronically. The main disadvantages seem to be that it is not really a pure water powered setup (often called hydroxy gas because it needs an alkaline substance in the water to make the reaction work), every so often depending on useage you need to change the plates and wires in the generator itself because even though they are stainless steel they corrode away.

I would be willing to give it a try one day. Even a straight water vapour injector is supposed to drop fuel usage.

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Originally Posted by pfillery

I have a large folder full of different methods of setting up hydrogen power in vehicles. I see little if any evidence that it is a total waste of time, there is some credibility to it.

Most setups do not claim to be able to run the car completely from hydrogen, as stated and agreed to, this takes up more energy than it puts out. However in the same way that a diesel gas system suplements the fuel source with lpg, the hydrogen setups suplement the fuel. According to most of them, you tune the mixture of the carby down so that the hydrogen takes up the slack. In electronic vehicles there are mods to the sensors to compensate. So leaner mixture equals less fuel usage. In many of the plans the power drain is limited because they pulse the current electronically. The main disadvantages seem to be that it is not really a pure water powered setup (often called hydroxy gas because it needs an alkaline substance in the water to make the reaction work), every so often depending on useage you need to change the plates and wires in the generator itself because even though they are stainless steel they corrode away.

I would be willing to give it a try one day. Even a straight water vapour injector is supposed to drop fuel usage.

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You are forgetting the first law of thermodynamics (like many others). You can't get more energy out than you put in!!!

So your "pulse"(s) of electical energy in kWh must be significantly greater than the chemical energy you are getting out as hydrogen.

None of the people using systems like you describe can measure what they are generating - they just know that it goes pop/bang so there must be some H2 in there.

Scientists and engineers have been experimenting with producing hydrogen for over 200 years. If someone had come up with a way to produce it even close to 1:1 efficiency using such a device it would be in widespread use.

As Dougal has said, these setups are mainly water injection systems. Any gains in economy are surely due to a combination of the water injection and the placebo effect.