Thread: DIY oil change on a PUMA - Don't use just any old oil

Originally Posted by Defender13

...
Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine. ...

This is a very naive statement, and likely incorrect in many cases.

Light passenger vehicles (this includes Landrovers) are considered disposable items by the manufacturers. Service intervals these days are either a guess or are set largely by consumer expectation and willingness to pay (e.g. air filters are usually changed too frequently). Many items are "sealed for life" when they should not be if you want to maximise life. Another thread points out that the D3 e-locker diff has an oil capacity that is too small for the manufacturer's service interval.

The same vehicle can have completely different service intervals in different markets - due mainly to market expectations.

All heavy vehicles base service intervals on oil analysis.

At $20 or so a go vs the high cost of modern oils, oil analysis is cheap insurance.

Originally Posted by Defender13

Hi Tombie,
which comments in particular - can you point them out, please.
Regarding wear and tear - noise, temperature, consumption and EGT are pretty good indicators on wear when comparing use in similar conditions - providing the maintenance schedule is ok, .
Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine. Engine will wear in time - and so anything else involving friction etc.
And yes, 2.2 and 2.4 Pumas are different, hence caution with maintenance is appropriate .

Good questions:

Noise: Subjective, but we can agree that there is a good chance if it sounds quieter it likely is, so no big issue there. Except for a single question - Why is it quieter? Thicker oil? Better shear performance - a tight tolerance engine shouldn't rattle if the correct spec lubricant is used.

Temperature: Measured where? Using the normalised temperature gauge? Certainly not very scientific! Considering a functioning cooling system should sustain engine temp regardless of the changes made by running varying oil of 'similar' spec.

Consumption: Oil or Fuel? Fuel consumption increase can indicate drag from the oil. Change in driving habits, change in vehicle configuration, ambient operating temperature or journey style changes. Too easy to have variability.
Oil consumption can indicate worn engine, incorrect oil or other issues. I've not owned a vehicle that chewed oil in 20 years...
I would expect a properly bedded in Tdci to not be consuming oil in any noticeable volume.

EGT: Only indicative of the A/F ratio and load the engine is under.

and then your closing comment:

Friction: Heres one you can not easily answer without oil analysis. Are the bearings being worn away? Piston rings? Bores? How would you know?
Oil analysis is how. Yes, eventually the engine will wear - but how soon? This is why oil analysis is done, to enable reliability engineers and condition monitoring specialists to predict when, what, why and how something is wearing.

They look for the signs of wear early - and an increase in an element is usually indicative to wear inside the engine (gearbox, transmission, hydraulic system etc).

These suck it and see, she'll be right because I service it and it sounds quieter posts gain nothing, and demonstrate nothing. Its highly likely most people will move the vehicle on before the wear is even starting to become an issue.

Claiming that "Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine." Is a HUGELY naive claim

Sealed for Life ZF transmissions are a prime example where this is not the case.

Another flaw in the statement is you are not using the OEM specified oil, that the manufacturer tested the design with and approved.


And there I was thinking that these reliability guys were onto something, when all it needs to do is "sound quieter, and run the same temp"

Originally Posted by Tombie

Firstly - Changing at 5k is unnecessary...

Secondly - Oil spec for 2.4 and 2.2 is very different... Check before you change!

The oil spec 5W/30 – WSS–M2C913–B or C is the same for 2.4 and 2.2 non DPF motors. See LR spec sheet attached

Total Quartz ticks all the spec. boxes for non DPF and Ive been using it for intermediate oil changes on 2.2 Puma and for servicing my TDV6. Its cost much less than the Castrol with the same spec.

Originally Posted by isuzurover

This is a very naive statement, and likely incorrect in many cases.

Light passenger vehicles (this includes Landrovers) are considered disposable items by the manufacturers. Service intervals these days are either a guess or are set largely by consumer expectation and willingness to pay (e.g. air filters are usually changed too frequently). Many items are "sealed for life" when they should not be if you want to maximise life. Another thread points out that the D3 e-locker diff has an oil capacity that is too small for the manufacturer's service interval.

The same vehicle can have completely different service intervals in different markets - due mainly to market expectations.

All heavy vehicles base service intervals on oil analysis.

At $20 or so a go vs the high cost of modern oils, oil analysis is cheap insurance.

Oil analysis should also put to bed these 5,000 and 10,000km change intervals.

I agree you cant make claims about reduced wear without oil analysis (or stripping the motor and making measurements)

Oil analysis is common in heavy machinery servicing. This diagnosis is backed by the manufactuer eg Catapillar, The manfacturers have done the research to understand the critical levels of parameters such as soot, wear metals, contamination metals, fuel wash, moisture, doing an autopsy on the filter etc etc

Can Land Rover or Ford (Puma) provide the data needed to apply the results of an oil analysis, or are there generic data that can be applied?

It is obvious reading on this forum, owners cant agree on a time or distance based oil service interval, so how difficult would an oil analysis derived interval be
I would love to see some LR specific analysis data, but for the time being I will continue to change my oil 10,000km or 6 month with recommended spec oil and filter, which is twice as conservative as Land Rover recommend

Originally Posted by Tombie

Good questions:

Noise: Subjective, but we can agree that there is a good chance if it sounds quieter it likely is, so no big issue there. Except for a single question - Why is it quieter? Thicker oil? Better shear performance - a tight tolerance engine shouldn't rattle if the correct spec lubricant is used.

Temperature: Measured where? Using the normalised temperature gauge? Certainly not very scientific! Considering a functioning cooling system should sustain engine temp regardless of the changes made by running varying oil of 'similar' spec.

Consumption: Oil or Fuel? Fuel consumption increase can indicate drag from the oil. Change in driving habits, change in vehicle configuration, ambient operating temperature or journey style changes. Too easy to have variability.
Oil consumption can indicate worn engine, incorrect oil or other issues. I've not owned a vehicle that chewed oil in 20 years...
I would expect a properly bedded in Tdci to not be consuming oil in any noticeable volume.

EGT: Only indicative of the A/F ratio and load the engine is under.

and then your closing comment:

Friction: Heres one you can not easily answer without oil analysis. Are the bearings being worn away? Piston rings? Bores? How would you know?
Oil analysis is how. Yes, eventually the engine will wear - but how soon? This is why oil analysis is done, to enable reliability engineers and condition monitoring specialists to predict when, what, why and how something is wearing.

They look for the signs of wear early - and an increase in an element is usually indicative to wear inside the engine (gearbox, transmission, hydraulic system etc).

These suck it and see, she'll be right because I service it and it sounds quieter posts gain nothing, and demonstrate nothing. Its highly likely most people will move the vehicle on before the wear is even starting to become an issue.

Claiming that "Oil analysis is not necessary if you follow OEM (oil and engine and other systems) maintenance schedules. Oil will be fine." Is a HUGELY naive claim

Sealed for Life ZF transmissions are a prime example where this is not the case.

Another flaw in the statement is you are not using the OEM specified oil, that the manufacturer tested the design with and approved.


And there I was thinking that these reliability guys were onto something, when all it needs to do is "sound quieter, and run the same temp"

Hi Tombie and Isuzurover,
I'll put this reply together - I hope you don't mind guys. Thanks for comments and here is my final comment as short as possible. (I didn't realise there will so much response on this subject).

Noise - different thickness of oil with the same SAE number is nonsense - no offence. There are other factors influencing noise rather than just "thickness".

Temperature measurement on these tiny engines is just fine where it is - no science required here.

Consumption - both of course, I didn't realised I have to even mention that,
sorry.

EGT can actually indicate more than that under same driving and ambient conditions, i.e. injection system issues, engine wear. No time and space to explain now.

Friction and oil analysis - I am not sure what is your background but for this size of engines it is not practical, sorry. You're right when it comes to medium / large trucks and other "large" equipment. Not for small cars. Also to say that the maintenance schedules are out of the blue numbers based on consumer markets requirements shows quite a lack of information and knowledge; again no offence.
I said when "driven in similar conditions" - that is comparing apples with apples. Also, I didn't realise (for Isuzurover) that it is necessary to mention that maintenance conditions are SPECIFIC for each geographic region and for specific working conditions of the vehicle in its class - I assumed anybody interested already knows that.
Reliability engineers (I work with) in automotive and defence industries do their work for reason. But for small cars it means setting regional schedules for maintenance amongst other things etc. Oil analysis is just one of many complimentary tools/methods to do that.
Regarding the "flaw" of not using the OEM oil - sorry mate, it is OEM rated and approved oil, that is ACEA C1 and WSS-M2C934-B standards compliant. Even if the car is not DPF equipped it is still compliant, read the standard and LR specs, please.
As mentioned, I use C1 one oil because is cleaner than ACEA A1/B1 and ACEA A5/B5 oils. The name Castrol here means nothing, just a brand name.

Useful link: Ford Oil and Oil for Ford from Opie Oils

Originally Posted by Grappler

I agree you cant make claims about reduced wear without oil analysis (or stripping the motor and making measurements)

Oil analysis is common in heavy machinery servicing. This diagnosis is backed by the manufactuer eg Catapillar, The manfacturers have done the research to understand the critical levels of parameters such as soot, wear metals, contamination metals, fuel wash, moisture, doing an autopsy on the filter etc etc

Can Land Rover or Ford (Puma) provide the data needed to apply the results of an oil analysis, or are there generic data that can be applied?

It is obvious reading on this forum, owners cant agree on a time or distance based oil service interval, so how difficult would an oil analysis derived interval be
I would love to see some LR specific analysis data, but for the time being I will continue to change my oil 10,000km or 6 month with recommended spec oil and filter, which is twice as conservative as Land Rover recommend

That is a strawman argument. The laws of physics do not change for landrovers or light vehicles. If you give the oil analysis firm your original oil specs they can tell you the degredation and even if it should be changed.

Originally Posted by Grappler

I agree you cant make claims about reduced wear without oil analysis (or stripping the motor and making measurements)

Oil analysis is common in heavy machinery servicing. This diagnosis is backed by the manufactuer eg Catapillar, The manfacturers have done the research to understand the critical levels of parameters such as soot, wear metals, contamination metals, fuel wash, moisture, doing an autopsy on the filter etc etc

Can Land Rover or Ford (Puma) provide the data needed to apply the results of an oil analysis, or are there generic data that can be applied?

It is obvious reading on this forum, owners cant agree on a time or distance based oil service interval, so how difficult would an oil analysis derived interval be
I would love to see some LR specific analysis data, but for the time being I will continue to change my oil 10,000km or 6 month with recommended spec oil and filter, which is twice as conservative as Land Rover recommend

Good comment mate,

I'll start with this attachment (pdf file).
20000 kms is good for EU, perhaps. But fuel in Oz is really bad and in comparison has quite a variation as well, hence your conservative choice is safe at least.
I will use 12000 to 15000 intervals depending on load and area. The more outback and load - the more frequent change. Major truck OEMs are doing this adjustment for their products, too. It's based on many factors and statistics and also with oil analysis check to adjust the data - for them this make good sense. LR is suggesting 12000 km in Australia - verbally only .