EV general discussion

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

EV battery recycling is already happening. By the time volumes pick up to significant levels, there will be multiple options available.

Plus by 2030, I would expect repurposing old EV batteries with 80% capacity remaining into house solar storage batteries will be an option as well.

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None of this is going to happen. There is recycling in the world that shreds the batteries ... they first must be manually dismantled ... by a person into tiny segments to make them safe to handle. very dangerous work. Once shredded, there isn't really a process in the world on a commercial scale to process this. You can't find details (as its obviously so horendous for the environment) but it sounds like to extract any minerals they either burn ... or dissolve the shredded batteries into a toxic mess ..... likely very energy inefficient and extraordinarily toxic. Not only that they keep burning. That recycling place in france that torched off a couple of months back .... its the 3rd time its burnt down ? NIMBY big time from me. No way would I want one of those fire prone messes in my back yard.

Why keep repeating the utter lunacy of repurpsoing batteries. I'll just cut and paste my post from the last page

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I wish I could stop people repeating this crazyness. So you want to take a leaky, ageing inredibly dangerous lithium battery ... remove all of its exotic monitors and controllers, remove its exotic cooling systems and sensors ... and stick it on your house wall ... where your family sleeps. I for one can't see a single issue with that [bigrolf][bighmmm]:firedevil::firedevil::firedevil: This is the sort of utter stupidity that gets repeated by electric car zealots :) I would be hoping land rover owners would have more common sense that to follow lunacy if its screamed at them in the media.

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you're just repeating the lunacy the electric car zealots and media keep screaming at us. only none of it is even close to reality. The brand new houses batteries are torching off all over the place ... and you want to stick leaky old lithium cells from cars on your house :o

All problems which are solvable to avoid the need to manually break the batteries down. Same process used to recycle all sorts of lithium batteries.

There are companies already doing it - technology just needs to be scaled up now.

https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ?feature=shared

Even repurposing EV batteries is starting. All small steps to date, but the market will grow with time. The volume is just too small at present, but in the next 5-10 years I believe it will be common place. It is too big of a market opportunity to ignore and with house batteries up to 4 times the cost of EV batteries, there is a financial incentive to make it happen.

What happens to old electric vehicle batteries?

And of course if they can’t be repurposed for a second 15 year life, then they will just be recycled.

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

All problems which are solvable to avoid the need to manually break the batteries down. Same process used to recycle all sorts of lithium batteries.

There are companies already doing it - technology just needs to be scaled up now.

https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ?feature=shared

Even repurposing EV batteries is starting. All small steps to date, but the market will grow with time. The volume is just too small at present, but in the next 5-10 years I believe it will be common place. It is too big of a market opportunity to ignore and with house batteries up to 4 times the cost of EV batteries, there is a financial incentive to make it happen.

What happens to old electric vehicle batteries?

And of course if they can’t be repurposed for a second 15 year life, then they will just be recycled.

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those fluff videos describe exactly what I stated. They can shred the batteries (sort of ... they only ever show tiny batteries being shredded). Search some more about car batteries, the only thing you will find is one single picture of someone manually dismantling a large car battery. Fluff videos aside, what are we going to do with the shredded batteries. How and where are they processing the shredded batteries these "everyhting is amazing .... and fabulous" videos show? How bad for the environment is processing these batteries? If it wasn't horrendous there would be fluff videos everywhere about it.

now there is big recycling plants in europe being built. They are no good to us, even if they actually manage to recycle the batteries without burning.... how do we get the horrendously dangerous, aged, leaking batteries to these locations. We sure cannot put them on a ship, brand new batteries fitted to brand new cars are already sinking ships. there is no way we can start sending container loads of degraded possibly damaged batteries all over the world.

https://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/in...30-jpg.244344/

They "think" we might invest in a recycling plant here. Really what I think will end up happening is these enormously dangerous batteries will be stuck in a warehouse/holding yard somewhere "to be recycled". At some point one of them will go into meltdown and torch off the other thousands of batteries "waiting for recycling". And just like that, we have the biggest, most toxic fire in all of australian history that cannot be extinguished. DOn't worry, I'm sure they won't put these "recycling yards" in suburbia.

Honestly I think we'll have to bury them, its the only safe thing to do, if they torch off underground they shouldn't spew chemicals into the air. they will "only" taint the ground water.

I think we will end up recycling them in the same way we do with tires. The problem is we can't just hide them in 3rd world countries where no-one can see and "pretend" they are recycled, because they are so dangerous.

The video I posted showed it processing an EV battery.

You see it being loaded on the feed conveyor, going up the conveyor, and even going into the top of shredding circuit. The fluff you see is the shredded plastics. [emoji12]

They recover 95% of the metals. Recycling uses 70% less energy than mining those same metals from scratch, and so will be highly viable. Just needs financial backing to commercialise.

But they are not the only player developing technology and processes to recycle EV batteries. A lot of investment being made by car companies, mining companies, and recycling firms to make it happen.

Even a failed EV battery has too much value in it to go to landfill, often just requiring failed modules to be replaced to give it a second life as a re-manufactured battery — this is even happening here in Melbourne.

EV & Hybrid Battery replacement specialists
– Infinitev

I may have found my NEXT car. 'May'be[thumbsupbig]

Its NIO ES8. Not in OZ yet. Might be 2025.

NIO ES8: Redefine Prime | NIO

It might tow 2000kg! It might allow battery swaps! That last bit is of interest to me for potential to swap up to Solid State in future once my nutting American company or Korea or China get that party started!

It might be able to get me fishing out deep again [thumbsupbig]

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

The video I posted showed it processing an EV battery.

You see it being loaded on the feed conveyor, going up the conveyor, and even going into the top of shredding circuit. The fluff you see is the shredded plastics. [emoji12]

They recover 95% of the metals. Recycling uses 70% less energy than mining those same metals from scratch, and so will be highly viable. Just needs financial backing to commercialise.

But they are not the only player developing technology and processes to recycle EV batteries. A lot of investment being made by car companies, mining companies, and recycling firms to make it happen.

Even a failed EV battery has too much value in it to go to landfill, often just requiring failed modules to be replaced to give it a second life as a re-manufactured battery — this is even happening here in Melbourne.

EV & Hybrid Battery replacement specialists
– Infinitev

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that's exactly what they are ... fluff videos. seriously if you can find how they process the shredded batteries, I'd love to know how its done. As I can find nothing on it. its like a black hole. Do we just have moutains of the shredded/processed batteries sitting around the world waiting for a viable (financially and environmentally sound) way for them to be recovered? You could be right, they might be doing it somewhere ... maybe? Why isnt' there fluff videos everywhere about it. I'd be more than happy if you were right .... but I just don't see it. You know all the sunshine and rainbows about all of the amazing recycling we currently do .... Don't look into it .... Not even in the slightest.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013...34_964x714.jpg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013...51_964x609.jpg

this isn't dumped tile piles so large you can see them from space ....

https://www.shutterstock.com/shutter...1386041876.jpg

all our amazing recyling efforts here .... we do amazing work, er, "recycling" that by dumping it in 3rd world countries


We just CANNOT do this with batteries. They are to dangerous.

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Originally Posted by NavyDiver

I may have found my NEXT car. 'May'be[thumbsupbig]

Its NIO ES8. Not in OZ yet. Might be 2025.

NIO ES8: Redefine Prime | NIO

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Launched in 2017 and ceased production in 2021.

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Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

that's exactly what they are ... fluff videos. seriously if you can find how they process the shredded batteries, I'd love to know how its done. As I can find nothing on it. its like a black hole. Do we just have moutains of the shredded/processed batteries sitting around the world waiting for a viable (financially and environmentally sound) way for them to be recovered?

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So that is where the IP is. Once the plastics and the aluminium/copper metals are separated they can go through normal recycling. The remaining product called the “black mass” contains the lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt and graphite. Graphite can be separated by flotation, and the other products go through a more complex hydro-metallurgical process to be recovered. Much like how many metals are made in the first place from ore concentrates. Different companies use different approaches.

One good explanation on how one company processes the black mass is here:

https://youtu.be/g1Ij4Emz8XQ?feature=shared

BASF gave this presentation 3 years ago which goes into more detail on how their process works and how it differs from other metallurgical processes:

https://youtu.be/XylDkcrJgTw?feature=shared

And this company’s approach is to produce a high purity mix which is like what is used to produce the batteries in the first place:

https://youtu.be/xwtmDFwL_Lk?feature=shared

The race is on to commercialise and protect the IP through patents so it can be licensed. Tesla claim to have their own in-house process to fully recycle their batteries, but other car companies are partnering with specialise lithium iron battery recycling companies.

EU mandates are basically ensuring the car companies take full ownership for the recycling of EV batteries and setting minimum recycle content in new batteries, hence the big investments being made to make it happen.

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Originally Posted by 101RRS

Launched in 2017 and ceased production in 2021.

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Whoops. My Maybe was right then [biggrin]

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

So that is where the IP is. Once the plastics and the aluminium/copper metals are separated they can go through normal recycling. The remaining product called the “black mass” contains the lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt and graphite. Graphite can be separated by flotation, and the other products go through a more complex hydro-metallurgical process to be recovered. Much like how many metals are made in the first place from ore concentrates. Different companies use different approaches.

One good explanation on how one company processes the black mass is here:

https://youtu.be/g1Ij4Emz8XQ?feature=shared

BASF gave this presentation 3 years ago which goes into more detail on how their process works and how it differs from other metallurgical processes:

https://youtu.be/XylDkcrJgTw?feature=shared

And this company’s approach is to produce a high purity mix which is like what is used to produce the batteries in the first place:

https://youtu.be/xwtmDFwL_Lk?feature=shared

The race is on to commercialise and protect the IP through patents so it can be licensed. Tesla claim to have their own in-house process to fully recycle their batteries, but other car companies are partnering with specialise lithium iron battery recycling companies.

EU mandates are basically ensuring the car companies take full ownership for the recycling of EV batteries, hence the big investments being made to make it happen.

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That first video, that is really cool. I wonder if they have got it past the pilot stage yet. I'm going to watch it later (I just scrolled through it quickly). I'm going to send that to someone else that was trying to understand what we are going to do with the shredded batteries too.

They can also recycle solar panels in australia too..... Well we don't but they have figured out a way too, its currently not really viable due to costs. fingers crossed they do manage to figure out a way of recycling these that isn't worse for the environment than just digging more out of the ground. Do you know if anyone is doing this commercially yet? I didn't manage to find this stuff when I was searching everywhere.

I have seen the video with regards to shreding the batteries you listed before. Yeah I remember them forklfting the car battery on. They certainly didn't show it being shredded that I can remember (All I can think is BOOM .... big fire and explosion) if you try and shred a big car battery without first dismantling and completely discharging it. At least that is what I assume they must do!