EV general discussion

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

I don't think so. He appears to have spend years, decades studying this. He references studies to lookup in quite a few places. Like most, I don't think he is "anti" EV. He just has a brain, so doesn't want to see anything "forced" on people for no reason. I thought the cost of horses was fascinating. He would be right about the cost of electricity transmission lines. Interestingly, most of these types of people that are not green washed with stupidity, don't mention power generation. They seem to think that part can be done. Its the upgrading the existing power transmission infrastructure that is the insurmountable issue.

seeya
Shane L.

---

The cost of horses I don't see as relevant.

The cost of everything in the "old days" was insane compared to now. Everything cost so much. People didn't have much.

My family bought into a new brisbane suburb (6k from the CBD!) just after the war. Back then, it was uncommon to have a car. Our family were one of only two in the street with a car, and that was because my dad was a teacher and was "allowed" to have one because of his war service and teaching. He worked for what is now QUT and used to park on the riverbank before the freeway was there. He recalled the day the first student drove to uni and parked. It was a borderline scandal. "How did he get the money for that".

You could see it in the houses too. They were not built for car parking because people didn't have cars. It was improvised. But the time my house was built in the mid 60's car use was becoming more common so the houses were built with proper garages. Unfortunately, as the cars were not all SUV/4x4 the max height was 180-90. Which is why my street is lined with cars too big to fit in their garages.

Meanwhile now everyone has an ICE car. There is a rental across the street. The new tenants must be doing the share house thing. As far as I can tell there are up to 10 cars associated with that house. They've got two in the garage, four in the driveway, and another 4 or so spread out over the street parking. A car splosion I call it.

When your friend says "EV's are for the rich" this is to be expected for a new technology. Remember ICE cars were as well. In the last few years we've steadily seen EV's dropping in price. In the coming years you'll pay a premium for ICE, if you aren't already. ICE are only cheaper because of the manufacturing inertia. As this declines (component manufacturers drop out, factories have to be modernised) things will switch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

I don't think so. He appears to have spend years, decades studying this. He references studies to lookup in quite a few places. Like most, I don't think he is "anti" EV. He just has a brain, so doesn't want to see anything "forced" on people for no reason. I thought the cost of horses was fascinating. He would be right about the cost of electricity transmission lines. Interestingly, most of these types of people that are not green washed with stupidity, don't mention power generation. They seem to think that part can be done. Its the upgrading the existing power transmission infrastructure that is the insurmountable issue.

seeya
Shane L.

---

Also, did you even notice the bit "We can calculate exactly how much co2 ICE generate, it's a direct chemical ratio". Which it is. But he then went onto talk about EV input emissions and completely glossed over all the co2 input that goes into finding the oil, digging it up, transporting it, refining it.. no mention of that. Not on the table.

They are all made with horrible child labour in third world countries. Utter rubbish!

At this juncture the bulk of battery cobalt goes into small electric batteries not cars. No one seems to be worrying about that when they buy their ryobi or iphone. Not that there is any cobalt in my car unless my phone is in there...

EDIT: That's one of the amazing things about anti EV people. They worry about the electricity they use, but don't care at all about the electricity used in anything else. AC's, pools, or any of the many frivolous uses we have for electricity. That's off the table. Not the disucssion. It's the energy you use in your EV. It will kill the grid don't you know!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DoubleChevron

Yes, and there stupidity will be ignore by all but the brain washed. Now you just touched on the other obvious thing EV's do, they are trying to take cars out of the hands of poor poeple. So "make people other than me drive less". You are doing a very good job telling us what WE should do is a way that sounds like you're not.
ie:

• do what we say
• buy what we say
• you don't need a car
• if you can somehow afford one, you must buy the one we tell you
• If I put luny net zero here, our expectation is you will be living in a cave with no power or heating and be happy for it as you are saving the planet.

This is one of the most fascinating talks I've seen on EVs .... I know you won't watch it as net zero/ev evangelists refuse to even listen to anything that will not match there beliefs. However this isn't anti EV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Nz...NvbGxlZ2UgZXYg

It is really fascinating. I had no idea the horse and cart was so expensive.

---

I've seen this game before. Most of the anti-climate change talking points were produced by the Heritage Foundation and were funded by US oil and gas companies. Similarly, this anti-EV stuff. The really serious issue is that by the time that the right-wing billionaires in the US stop pumping this luddite stuff out it'll be too late - it'll be China that completely owns the new industrial age. The blindness of so many people is beyond belief - China is fully committed to a carbon-free economy and they will OWN it, globally, within 20 years. At that point I doubt that there's any possibility of the US catching up, particularly not with the way that the current administration is cutting funding to renewables specifically and science generally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arapiles

I've seen this game before. Most of the anti-climate change talking points were produced by the Heritage Foundation and were funded by US oil and gas companies. Similarly, this anti-EV stuff. The really serious issue is that by the time that the right-wing billionaires in the US stop pumping this luddite stuff out it'll be too late - it'll be China that completely owns the new industrial age. The blindness of so many people is beyond belief - China is fully committed to a carbon-free economy and they will OWN it, globally, within 20 years. At that point I doubt that there's any possibility of the US catching up, particularly not with the way that the current administration is cutting funding to renewables specifically and science generally.

---

Umm. How many coal power stations does China have? And are building currently? It's my understanding that it's in the hundreds. Hardly committed to a carbon free economy?

Due to China's population, they are doing everything, everywhere, all at once, so wind, solar, coal, methane bladders for farm waste, etc. Their per capita emissions are still lower than the US and us, and a lot of that's really other people's emissions, as they are the world's work shop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grey_ghost

Umm. How many coal power stations does China have? And are building currently? It's my understanding that it's in the hundreds. Hardly committed to a carbon free economy?

---

That claim - widely reported over the last decade as an anti-green talking point - is at best misleading. Although there have apparently been lots of new coal plants approved:

1. A lot of them aren't actually built: someone did an on-the-ground check a few years ago and found quite a few empty development sites. So, "approved" doesn't mean built;
2. The ones that are built don't operate at capacity;
3. The ones that are built aren't in the slightest bit financially viable;
4. There's more coal plants but despite that China is actually burning less coal;
5. Relevantly, it's the regions that are approving new coal plants, not the central government.

One of the ongoing tensions in China, dating back probably thousands of years, is that between the regions and the central government. The short answer is that the central Chinese government is pushing decarbonisation, solar, batteries and EVs and the regional governments are approving coal plants. Which if they're actually built probably aren't operating and if they are operating it's not all the time and most likely at a loss.

China puts coal on back burner as renewables soar – Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air

China is building more coal plants but might burn less coal

China Allows New Coal Plants, but With More Limited Role - Yale E360

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arapiles

That claim - widely reported over the last decade as an anti-green talking point - is at best misleading. Although there have apparently been lots of new coal plants approved:

1. A lot of them aren't actually built: someone did an on-the-ground check a few years ago and found quite a few empty development sites. So, "approved" doesn't mean built;
2. The ones that are built don't operate at capacity;
3. The ones that are built aren't in the slightest bit financially viable;
4. There's more coal plants but despite that China is actually burning less coal;
5. Relevantly, it's the regions that are approving new coal plants, not the central government.

One of the ongoing tensions in China, dating back probably thousands of years, is that between the regions and the central government. The short answer is that the central Chinese government is pushing decarbonisation, solar, batteries and EVs and the regional governments are approving coal plants. Which if they're actually built probably aren't operating and if they are operating it's not all the time and most likely at a loss.

China puts coal on back burner as renewables soar ? Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air

China is building more coal plants but might burn less coal

China Allows New Coal Plants, but With More Limited Role - Yale E360

---

And then there's this: China's Co2 emissions are thought to be near peaking, or actually peaked, and will start declining earlier than expected;

• If renewables continue to cut into coal generation then a peak in China's CO2 emissions ? pledged to happen before 2030 ? is on the horizon, if not already here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arapiles

And then there's this: China's Co2 emissions are thought to be near peaking, or actually peaked, and will start declining earlier than expected;

• If renewables continue to cut into coal generation then a peak in China's CO2 emissions ? pledged to happen before 2030 ? is on the horizon, if not already here.

---

Having worked in China.. All I can say is - I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grey_ghost

Having worked in China.. All I can say is - I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.

---

I lived in the region for 10 years and advised China's main government project financier on about a dozen transactions, so I'd like to sell you the financing for a bridge.

Tell me more about this bridge. Sounds interesting.