Thread: The new F150.....

Originally Posted by 999

I find that a bit hard to swallow. I feel as a country we allow others to abuse our good will and fail to protect our own. We relinquish tariffs to our own detriment for short term relationships. And it's not just the motor vehicle industry either.

As Liam said a lot of it comes down to economy of scale 23,000,000 people (potential customers) versus 317,000,000 people (potential customers).

Plus tariffs aren't the answer, they only make things more expensive, might keep a few thousands of people in work but everyone who buys a car has to pay way more. Eventually with protectionist tariffs it gets that expensive that you can't afford to buy anything including the local car so the outcome is the same, it all starts to fail and then you find up with even more protectionist policy. Like it or not Australia has a much higher standard of living because of government policies (both Labor and Coalition) which have gone down the path of a free open market.

Again economy of scale has a lot to do with it, it's not the only reason but it is one of the main ones.

Originally Posted by TerryO

As Liam said a lot of it comes down to economy of scale 23,000,000 people (potential customers) versus 317,000,000 people (potential customers).

Plus tariffs aren't the answer, they only make things more expensive, might keep a few thousands of people in work but everyone who buys a car has to pay way more. Eventually with protectionist tariffs it gets that expensive that you can't afford to buy anything including the local car so the outcome is the same, it all starts to fail and then you find up with even more protectionist policy. Like it or not Australia has a much higher standard of living because of government policies (both Labor and Coalition) which have gone down the path of a free open market.

Again economy of scale has a lot to do with it, it's not the only reason but it is one of the main ones.

Actually that's wrong.
Thailand, you know the country we have a "free trade deal with" has sales of 1.3 million and exported .................850,000 vehicles last year(production is around 2.2-2.4million and is planning to build 1million plus. go do a search on what the "tax" would have been on a ford territory or commodore to be sold there. Then look at every ute and dual cab as they are almost all made in Thailand. Bt50, ranger D-max, Colorado ,triton, navara etc
In June 2009, the Thailand Board of Investment expanded its automotive incentive scheme to cover automobiles that have high technologies that are new to Thailand, such as hybrid drive, brake energy regeneration and electronic stability control. The BOI's new policy, which is designed to attract international automakers looking to restructure by relocating production facilities overseas, provides a range of incentives, including corporate income tax holidays of between 5 and 7 years.
Thailand’s Automotive Industry
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/busi...-30190808.html
Now last year we had 1.13 million in sales. and our govt supported the industry to about $1966 per car. the U.S.A supported its industry to almost $3000 , hang on didn't they just pull out and move their manufacturing out? I wonder why?


FactCheck: do other countries subsidise their car industry more than we do?


Now I wonder if we either matched the U.S at $3k/car subsidy or did something similar to Thailand with 5-7 or even 8 years tax free would we have a disappearing car industry or a growing one?

I'm quite happy with foreign governments & taxpayers subsidising the cost of new cars here in Australia

As far as the Aus government subsidising cars made here, do we really want our tax dollars going to make cars cheaper for people wealthy enough to purchase new cars? We've already seen the government subsidise people who are wealthy enough to purchase solar panels, and give free roof insulation to people who earn enough to have a mortgage or own their own home. It's funny how many well-meaning programs end up giving money to the wealthy or middle class, and not to those who actually need direct support.

Originally Posted by Pinelli

I'm quite happy with foreign governments & taxpayers subsidising the cost of new cars here in Australia

As far as the Aus government subsidising cars made here, do we really want our tax dollars going to make cars cheaper for people wealthy enough to purchase new cars? We've already seen the government subsidise people who are wealthy enough to purchase solar panels, and give free roof insulation to people who earn enough to have a mortgage or own their own home. It's funny how many well-meaning programs end up giving money to the wealthy or middle class, and not to those who actually need direct support.

We've been through the figures before, but it boils down to for every dollar the Govt subsidised the car industry it saved/made between 2.5 and 3 dollars.
The car companies pay GST and tax when making a profit. They employ around 100-200,000 who all pay tax and spend their pay paying more GST, and other taxes. This figure alone is more than the support abbot cut. Then you factor in welfare to all those who are now unemployed and again that figure is greater than the support scheme that was cut. End result, more unemployed and needy.

Would you stop an investment plan that reduces your costs and increases your income by 2.5 times the amount you invested? We did

Why didn't Ford make the Ranger here?,likewise Holden?,Toyota with the Hilux?,why,because they could not give a stuff about Australia or Australian jobs or paying Australian taxes,all three could have kept the lines going by making vehicles Australians wanted but they would rather make them oversea's to make more money,why should Australian tax payers support companies like that?. Pat

Originally Posted by frantic

We've been through the figures before, but it boils down to for every dollar the Govt subsidised the car industry it saved/made between 2.5 and 3 dollars.
The car companies pay GST and tax when making a profit. They employ around 100-200,000 who all pay tax and spend their pay paying more GST, and other taxes. This figure alone is more than the support abbot cut. Then you factor in welfare to all those who are now unemployed and again that figure is greater than the support scheme that was cut. End result, more unemployed and needy.

Would you stop an investment plan that reduces your costs and increases your income by 2.5 times the amount you invested? We did

Here we go again with the same old drivel.

Fact 1 - Ford announced that they were shutting up shop in Australia well before the last election.

Fact 2 - Holden has publicly announced on more than one occasion that the outcome of the last election had no bearing whatsoever on their decision to cease manufacturing in Australia - their decision was also taken (in Detroit) well before the outcome of the election in Australia was known.

Fact 3 - Once Ford and Holden were "gone", it followed that Toyota would do the same as the rest of the industry (external parts manufacturers etc) could never survive with only the one client.

Once the "big three" had made their decisions public, why would any government continue to pour subsidies into companies who had already announced their intentions to take the money and run.

But according to some, it's all Abbott's fault .................

Never let the facts get in the way of another chance to promote your one eyed political views, hey. It's all getting pretty boring really.

Originally Posted by BMKal

Here we go again with the same old drivel.

Fact 1 - Ford announced that they were shutting up shop in Australia well before the last election.

Fact 2 - Holden has publicly announced on more than one occasion that the outcome of the last election had no bearing whatsoever on their decision to cease manufacturing in Australia - their decision was also taken (in Detroit) well before the outcome of the election in Australia was known.

Fact 3 - Once Ford and Holden were "gone", it followed that Toyota would do the same as the rest of the industry (external parts manufacturers etc) could never survive with only the one client.

Once the "big three" had made their decisions public, why would any government continue to pour subsidies into companies who had already announced their intentions to take the money and run.

But according to some, it's all Abbott's fault .................

Never let the facts get in the way of another chance to promote your one eyed political views, hey. It's all getting pretty boring really.

Fact one , continually ignored, election outcome was known , it was just a question of by what margin.
Fact two, Ignore the previous post that shows a 50% higher support to build cars in the U.S and ignore the fact that it would be a big motivator to build in either Thailand , where its tax free for at least 7 years, or the U.S where youget $3000 per car.
Fact three. Links would be nice, like say when did A certain person announce that all subsidies to the car industry would be cut? From memory it was 2010.In 2011/12 all three where committed to build here to at least 2016.
Now with Gillard going backwards in the polls at warp speed the car industry could see the future writing on the wall. Why drop hundreds of millions here to develop a new model when for the same outlay they would pay no tax in Thailand or get $3000/car extra in the U.S(cut our $1900 as he promised)
Fact four. We paid about $18 to the car industry in subsidies OUCH!. To the mines we paid about $200 to banks about $760 so lets really level the field? or not?
LINKS :
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian
$4bn subsidy for mine sector


So lets stop playing high and mighty on subsidies, Unless you have no children, live in a cave, avoid Weet-Bix, The Marriage of Figaro, and Dimboola, while consuming only dairy products, You. Are. Subsidised But He targeted one area to sacrifice.

Frantic, the main reason its easier and cheaper to build cars in Thailand is their low wage base. Yes Thailand has protectionism but they are a third world country struggling to have some sort of steady financial future other than sandy beaches, prostitution and cheap beer.
Australians and their Unions wouldn't work for the wages your average Thai gets, but that's ok you keep blaming politicians if that makes you feel better.

However no matter how many times you say it its not going to change anything nor will it bring back a industry that saw no future building vehicles here because of costs and tiny production runs of unpopular cars.

Just think about this before you next blame politicians, Australians stopped buying locally produced cars in mass years ago and when Australians wouldn't buy enough locally built cars to make the industry viable what future did the industry have?

So why keep it going when hardly anyone else in the world wanted our locally designed cars either. By the way I believe I have a right to comment on this as I have done just as much as anyone else to support the local industry, if not more. In the last 16 years I have supported the local car industry by buying the following locally produced cars and apart from the first two of them the rest were new.

VT Calais x 2
VY Calais
VY II Monaro
VY II HSV R8 Clubsport
VE HSV Senator
VE S3 HSV Senator

I still own the Series 3 Senator which I bought after buying the D1, D2 and D3 so even though I now mainly own foreign built vehicles I still bought a new locally produced car when the chance arose.

Most people I know who whinge about the local car industry closing down don't and often never have owned a locally produced car, which I find amusing even though they don't see the irony.