Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

[TerryO]

Here we go try this in a Defender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puaPTmxwwhg

OH,they did!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivlz6jRWmfg
Andrew


Ok Frantic my apologies for taking so long to address your post, I accept one can't go to a glazier and get him to cut a window for a D3/4.

But so far none of the Defender mob have even acknowledged these video clips that Andy put up that show a RR and a D3 walking up and down that hill without a bother.
I bet the poor Defender driver didn't feel to good after bouncing backwards down that hill, lucky man I reckon that he did not roll it, having seen what happens to a Defenders roof after it rolls it is never pretty especially for those inside. I bet after thinking about it he didn't try twice.

So the Defender wins the 'glaziers test' and I guess the D3/4 wins the 'able to climb up a incredibly steep hill in total control and then turn around and drive back down test'. ... ;)

[BobD]

Why don't some of you Defender guys watch some of the Misadventure 4WD UTube videos to get true picture of what D4's, RRS's, Defenders, D1's and 2's and other assorted cars can do compared with each other in extreme off road situations. You all seem to just assume they are no good with no actual evidence.


As far as articulation is concerned, I once did the car ramp on opposite corners trick to test the difference between the articulation of my D4 and my son's lifted D1. I was quite surprised that the D4 had all 4 wheels on the ground but the live axle D1 had one wheel about 25mm off the ground. In fact he had trouble driving up onto the ramps because he was losing traction on the two diagonal wheels that were close to leaving the ground and he only had open diffs. No such trouble in the D4.


All this to say that the D4 has very good articulation in low range and probably more than any other independently suspended 4WD's short of a military HumVee.

[rick130]

But so far none of the Defender mob have even acknowledged these video clips that Andy put up that show a RR and a D3 walking up and down that hill without a bother.


Probably because a Youtube vid of someone cocking up proves nothing ? ;)

[edit] and dare I suggest a Tdci would've walked up there, that Deefer was a TD5 and a Tdci (meeting the criteria of this comparison) has more torque than a stock TD5 and it sports that excellent low/low that my Tdi (or any TD5) only matches with the Maxi Drive low range I installed.

[Meken]

104376
Lifted the D4 [emoji51]
At least I can still lower it to get in the garage [emoji16]

[Toxic_Avenger]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKj8ODeIAv0
Tdci traction control doing its job well it seems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plOMSOpreSg
So the 90 is capable by the same logic... which has the crutch of a shorter wheel base.

[BobD]

Probably because a Youtube vid of someone cocking up proves nothing ? ;)
No, you've got the wrong videos. You watch 4WD Action to see people cocking up!!

[rick130]

104376
Lifted the D4 [emoji51]
At least I can still lower it to get in the garage [emoji16]

But when you lift it you reduce droop so limit your articulation. ;)

The same thing applies when most people lift a live axle 4WD. (unless you use longer dampers and relocate mounts, etc.)

[1nando]

Hmm - I was involved to some extent with Glenno's D4 build. When I saw the first "Low Range" episode and how the D4 was driven, I offered him a copy of my booklet for free. He candidly admits it took a while for him to digest the info and put it into practice. "Milo" is far from a "stock" 4x4 and I doubt there is an original part on it.

Methinks you're clutching at straws with this one.

Compared to the d4 Milo is old school technology, regardless of how much of Milo is original or not. The point im trying to make is that you dont have to have NASA style technology to have a capable 4wd. Earlier in the posts i listed 11 points as to why the defender is a better off road vehicle. Take those eleven points and make an argument either for and against them.
The topic is offorad capability and i believe that a defender offers the simplest yet most capable 4wd ability in standard form with the potential for even greater capabilty with onyl a few mods compared to the disco limited space for improvement due to its fancy nature.

And as for the engine in the d4 offereing power like a rocketship similar to "star ship Enterprise" ,this beleive it or not is not a positive in many off road situations. The only situation i can think of is long sandy hills for example. 4wding is not about power but about keeping things as slow as possible and as fast as necessary. What you want is low down torque which spreads over the power curve. Our truck and dogs could be powered by 700hp scanias but no one uses them because contrary to popular belief on this website whats important is enough power to do the job to maintain reliability for as long as possible. You see too much power and torque equals mechanical failure. The disco is in my opinion the "scania" of 4wds. It reads well on paper: safe, comfortable, powerful, and full of fancy gadgets but id still rather pay for a kenworth with 150hp less power and know that it will haul all day everyday for many years without any dramas. The defender is built on these principles and that's why its often referred to as a truck. Its simplicity makes it ideal for 4wding.

Its cross over axle articulation under full flex offers better body clearance than the disco, its got the better angles of approach/exit etc, better fuel economy, bigger cargo area, bigger tyres that can actually be let down to suit different terrains properly (not 19 inch rims with stupid tyres), the spare tyre is located in a better position, everything can easily be replaced including the simple windscreen, long range tanks are easily installed, water tanks easily installed, its got a heavier pay load, better centre of gravity, the steering although vague on road makes so much sense offraod with the feedback allowing for precise wheel placement..........all i hear from the disco guys is "4wd of the year 9 years in a row"....lol....what a joke.
Give me facts, facts that prove different to the points listed above. Whether you like to admit it or not those things are important when touring/4wding. Its about simplicity, adaptability, capabilty and the defender has stood the test of time.

[Rob king]

Give me facts, facts that prove different to the points listed above. Whether you like to admit it or not those things are important when touring/4wding. Its about simplicity, adaptability, capabilty and the defender has stood the test of time.[/QUOTE]

So well it's discontinued ....

[Meken]

Max torque @ 2000rpm for both cars
D4 combined 8l/100 Defer 110 - 11l/100
D4 sdv6 600Nm 2.5t
110 360Nm 2t
Numbers don't make sense

[manic]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/395.jpg[/QUOTE]

Ha I heard about this one.

Defender driver finds a stranded family in the outback. Apparently their 'SUV' wouldn't unlock, and when they got thirsty they went for a wander. When asked what they were digging for, they said 'internet'!

[Celtoid]

Compared to the d4 Milo is old school technology, regardless of how much of Milo is original or not. The point im trying to make is that you dont have to have NASA style technology to have a capable 4wd. Earlier in the posts i listed 11 points as to why the defender is a better off road vehicle. Take those eleven points and make an argument either for and against them.
The topic is offorad capability and i believe that a defender offers the simplest yet most capable 4wd ability in standard form with the potential for even greater capabilty with onyl a few mods compared to the disco limited space for improvement due to its fancy nature.

And as for the engine in the d4 offereing power like a rocketship similar to "star ship Enterprise" ,this beleive it or not is not a positive in many off road situations. The only situation i can think of is long sandy hills for example. 4wding is not about power but about keeping things as slow as possible and as fast as necessary. What you want is low down torque which spreads over the power curve. Our truck and dogs could be powered by 700hp scanias but no one uses them because contrary to popular belief on this website whats important is enough power to do the job to maintain reliability for as long as possible. You see too much power and torque equals mechanical failure. The disco is in my opinion the "scania" of 4wds. It reads well on paper: safe, comfortable, powerful, and full of fancy gadgets but id still rather pay for a kenworth with 150hp less power and know that it will haul all day everyday for many years without any dramas. The defender is built on these principles and that's why its often referred to as a truck. Its simplicity makes it ideal for 4wding.

Its cross over axle articulation under full flex offers better body clearance than the disco, its got the better angles of approach/exit etc, better fuel economy, bigger cargo area, bigger tyres that can actually be let down to suit different terrains properly (not 19 inch rims with stupid tyres), the spare tyre is located in a better position, everything can easily be replaced including the simple windscreen, long range tanks are easily installed, water tanks easily installed, its got a heavier pay load, better centre of gravity, the steering although vague on road makes so much sense offraod with the feedback allowing for precise wheel placement..........all i hear from the disco guys is "4wd of the year 9 years in a row"....lol....what a joke.
Give me facts, facts that prove different to the points listed above. Whether you like to admit it or not those things are important when touring/4wding. Its about simplicity, adaptability, capabilty and the defender has stood the test of time.


OK, let's talk about facts ....


"regardless of how much of Milo is original or not. The point im trying to make is that you dont have to have NASA style technology to have a capable 4wd." Nobody at any stage in this discussion has said a Deefer is anything other than a very, very capable 4WD .... (contrary to the reverse) not a single D4 owner has stated that ever! FACT!

The topic is offorad capability and i believe that a defender offers the simplest yet most capable 4wd ability in standard form with the potential for even greater capabilty with onyl a few mods compared to the disco limited space for improvement due to its fancy nature. FACT? Not really a fact - Quite a few variables apply here ... and you know that. Even comparing Deefer to Deefer would present pros and cons in different conditions and vehicle set-ups .... like any supposed comapro the outcome would be decided against a range of parameters.....mud, deep ruts, sand, steep hills, rocks, fast gravel tracks, etc, etc. Off-road does not mean trying to climb up a rock wall every time you go out......or driving thousands of miles up undulating rock walls. Variety is the point and the Deefer is stronger in certain areas as is the D4 .... but which ticks more boxes? FACTS to support these variables are the requirements ... not just statements.


How well does a Deefer turn?....abysmally, that's the answer. A D4? incredibly well by any standards. You seen the Vid of the D4 and the Deefer going down a mountain track and the Deefer has to make a three or four point turn to get round a corner the D4 did in one go? Luckily they had room .... too bad if it was a tight track .... up hill or down hill or flat, a D4 will easily outmanoeuvre a Deefer. FACT!


Deefer is simple .... yes but prone to failure .... the loss of the Brand to BMW and Ford and TATA is fact enough there (D1 & 2 didn't help .... but Disco's have moved on ... Deefers haven't). Things definitely go wrong in a D4 but they are generally not mechanical and can be fixed or worked around.....so once again variables. Get two dudes with no vehicle expertise and they are both screwed. Get two guys with the right knowledge and tools and you're going again.....and you probably need to be more mechanically minded to fix a Deefer.


More capable across the board of off-road driving .... as in the variables above .... FACT? Hardly!


And as for the engine in the d4 offereing power like a rocketship similar to "star ship Enterprise" You've never driven or been in a D4 off-road obviously .... this comment is such a giveaway. MOST 4WDs supposedly need a bit of momentum to get up and over stuff .... specially as they tend to lose traction or haven't the grunt in the right area. A Deefer is different to an extent in this regard. A D4 is vastly different, and contrary to what you obviously believe, 500Nm at almost idle is an availability figure only .... but once again, I figure you already know this. This amount of torque mated to the 6 or 8 speed in low range mated to a world leading TC (even the LR haters don't knock the TC) means you have variable and easily controlled torque from zero speed all the way through and it will maintain a very, very low speed if needs be. In fact, that's how they are recommended to be driven .... slow and careful .... let the stuff do it's thing.



Its simplicity makes it ideal for 4wding FACT? Simplicity in what way? To fix the multitude of mechanical failures? (refer to earlier comments). It's not simpler to drive or operate.....not by a long shot. A D4 will easily get a less experienced driver further and easier .... FACT ... detracts for some people I'm sure, that a D4 is so easy to drive but it is what it is.....but that isn't part of the comparo.


Its cross over axle articulation under full flex offers better body clearance than the disco. FACT? Yes/Maybe? (considering a D4 replicates a live axle in low-range) ....but ..... By how much? How often are you going to be in these circumstances? The pumpkins hang lower in most circumstances then the D4 diffs or underbelly (Ruts, tracks, sand, mud) and the heavily rutted tracks alone would chew up a much larger percentage of most peoples off-road driving I'd wager. So there are four easily illustrated areas where the D4 will have better clearance.....not to mention how the multimode TC at the flick of a switch eats them up. As I mentioned before .... compared across a range of areas .... not climbing a vertical, uneven wall at every turn. If you wanted to do that, I suggest a standard Deefer isn't the right car either.




its got the better angles of approach/exit etc FACT? Yes it does .... it is a fact. However, refer to the above comment.


better fuel economy, FACT? No, that's a claim. You could be right but where are the numbers (the facts) across a range of off-road environments.I'd like to see the on-road ones including towing, but that's not part of the comparo either.


bigger cargo area FACT? Yes but by how much .... a lot? However a D4's is much more flexible with 5 real seats in the back that can be configure in multiple configurations. Tailgate and hatch are also seen as a very big plus by lots of folk. However, this has what to do with off-road capability? .... nothing .... other than having more safer and more comfortable passengers on-board and more versatility .... so maybe that does count.


bigger tyres that can actually be let down to suit different terrains properly (not 19 inch rims with stupid tyres), the spare tyre is located in a better position FACT? Yes, in standard trim but has been done to death mate, the reasons behind that marketing decision verses the ability to fix. If the comapro was on-road I'm sure you would want to put 22" on the deefer ..... not that it would make any difference .... where as a slight downsize on a D4 makes a world of difference off-road.


the spare tyre is located in a better position, FACT? Yup. But easy fix on a D4 ....wheel carrier, store one on the roof rack .... and once again ... does this make it better off-road?


everything can easily be replaced including the simple windscreen, long range tanks are easily installed, water tanks easily installed FACT? Are ALL of those things actually true compared to a D4 .... based on what? ..... and once again relevance to the OP's point is what? You might claim with a lot of these that they are all important factors in peoples consideration but so are the plethora of things a D4 can easily do better than a Deefer .... but that isn't the point of this comparo.


, its got a heavier pay load, FACT? Yup. But what are the trade offs? Safety, comfort .... blah, blah. And this heavier weight will help a Deefer off-road how? I recon the other way round.


better centre of gravity, FACT? Has it? If true, there is a thing about this that is an advantage off-road but a D4 controls its roll in ways a Deefer can't. So even if true, maybe not so relevant.


the steering although vague on road makes so much sense offraod with the feedback allowing for precise wheel placement FACT? I don't know. Have you read anywhere about criticism of a D4's steering off or on-road? Nope .... me neither.


"4wd of the year 9 years in a row"....lol....what a joke. As I said before, if you read those articles, the authors were often nit picking seriously stupid stuff to take marks off the D4 .... and many were based on the fact that they had no friggin clue how to operate it or in fact even knew about the stats of the car......yet the car still won. You know damn well that these competitions are based on a wide variety of issues, not just climbing a wall.


Give me facts, facts that prove different to the points listed above. Whether you like to admit it or not those things are important when touring/4wding. Its about simplicity, adaptability, capabilty and the defender has stood the test of time You have some facts, you have some statements. A lot of what you say is irrelevant to this comparo. Your point about being relevant to your touring needs are probably accurate but also very subjective. If you are talking about touring around this great country and dealing with the variety of issues and conditions that will be presented there are just so many things that the D4 will do as well and many, many more that the D4 will do much, much better. FACT? YUP, you bet.


The D4 and beyond will get better, the Deefer will not. FACT? YUP.


Lasted the test of time. FACT? Nope ....already covered, they lost relevance in the 'real' world. I don't actually agree with that .... they are a great truck but that's why they are going to be discontinued.




How did I do? :D

[TerryO]

Regarding the often mentioned approach and departure angles, yes in standard trim a Defender is way better.
However it would be interesting to compare the two side by side with a D3/4 fitted with a bull bar on 32" tyres and at full off road height and I bet the differences are not that great.

Where the 110 would be better is in ramp over angle as it has a shorter wheelbase.

If I remember right there was a thread about this on the forum several years ago, which I now can't find, and it had the D3/4's new numbers in it that someone had measured after fitting a bar and fitting larger tyres and as I said the Defenders advantage was not that great.

One thing I do know for sure is with a bull bar fitted and at full off road height plus 31.6" tyres on my D3 I have only on rear Occassion touched the bull bar climbing over something and I have never touched the rear std bar. I have flattened the exhaust by about 50% though doing the lower section of Mt Walker in the rock garden. When I had it replaced I had them change a couple of bends in it a bit and the exhaust is now about a inch higher.

The part of the Mt Walker track where I damaged my exhaust about a year earlier I was there in the D3 with some Defender owners and a new 110 that had from memory standard tyres but had a ARB bar and winch fitted had to get winched over the same section of rocks where I dented my exhaust. So guys I wouldn't get to excited about the differences in ground clearance.

[scarry]

The T5 Disco 3 / 4 and RRS have the strongest chassis LR have ever built. The strongest CV joints. And the strongest axles. People often confuse "ruggedness" with "reliability", and "reliability" with "enough knowledge to repair".

From new, I took my D3 through tracks far worse than any shown here (LandAndy can attest to that). Pinstriping was never a hindrance. Neither the occasional dent. As I used to say - if I wasn't going to use it, I'd buy a Jaguar. Same went for the L320 Sport - which won the W4 Challenge 2014 and was runner-up 2015 (to a Range Rover) ahead of a plethora of modified Deefers. Same goes for our D4, and now our L494 Sport.

If you're willing to use it the way it was meant, a D4 will run rings around a Defender off-road. "Are you willing" is really the issue. And if you're of the opinion a Defender is better in sand, then you're either not preparing correctly, or your approach to off-road driving needs to be modified (this would be a great time to plug my 2-day sand course for Terrain Response vehicles, but I'll show restraint and put it in a more appropriate thread).

A 110 Defender is cheaper, easier for the traditional mechanic to repair, and easier to load up and clean out. But it's not a better off-roader.

Cheers

Gordon

And for the OP…:)

And the people that missed the post


Found the answer....so thats it:D:D

[Marty110]

And for the OP?:)

And the people that missed the post


Found the answer....so thats it:D:D
and..... dont forget that although not in the OP's brief, most of us have to travel to where we are able to off-road. For me I have a 2 day drive to the High Country, did it in my Puma, my back was barely up to off-roading once we got there. Sure do wish I'd had my RRS then, and would not of thought twice about taking it on the same tracks, and we did all the most serious tracks there. Even after fitting after market suspension and Sheelmann seats to the Deefer the drive to 4WD locations in the RRS is better, better ride, safer, more power and better economy. But this is based on me being in the older category and suffering wear and tear from 20yrs of Toyotas and 12yrs of Deefers. Also there is just the 2 of us now so room is not an issue for us plus we now tow a block of flats...... Basically horses for courses.

[manic]

The W4 challenge is no camel trophy though is it. They use a 'handicapped' points system to level the playing field. Not done it but looks like a fun day with land rovers, may check it out one day.

The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at. It's not just about willing, its about being able to do it without insurance right offs.

Defenders own it in the extreme. Disco has some neat tricks.

Both out the showroom, inexperienced drivers on an offroad play day. The disco wins.

Take both vehicles with experienced drivers on a camel trophy grade adventure and the defender wins.

I say all this with the best of defender in mind. But perhaps the puma is not quite as tough as previous models when it comes to submerging / fuel quality tolerance, driveline (I hear). Perhaps it wouldn't do so well on a third world trophy run either?!

I see why terryo limited the comp to the puma 110. It's a closer call. puma shares some of the same modern engine limitations as the disco in reduced fuel and water tollerance. But it still has the utilitarian advantage that is very important for most real offroad use and can still make use of the thousand and one offroad upgrades available to the classic defender platform that could see it far out perform a d4 of any modification.

I can't see how the d3/4 can win except perhaps, out of the factory without mods to the defender but with aftermarket wheels and better tyres on the disco. The exact conditions terryo placed on this discussion! You may have crafted a very small win there Terry.

[Celtoid]

The W4 challenge is no camel trophy though is it. They use a 'handicapped' points system to level the playing field. Not done it but looks like a fun day with land rovers, may check it out one day.

The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at. It's not just about willing, its about being able to do it without insurance right offs.

Defenders own it in the extreme. Disco has some neat tricks.

Both out the showroom, inexperienced drivers on an offroad play day. The disco wins.

Take both vehicles with experienced drivers on a camel trophy grade adventure and the defender wins.

I say all this with the best of defender in mind. But perhaps the puma is not quite as tough as previous models when it comes to submerging / fuel quality tolerance, driveline (I hear). Perhaps it wouldn't do so well on a third world trophy run either?!

I see why terryo limited the comp to the puma 110. It's a closer call. puma shares some of the same modern engine limitations as the disco in reduced fuel and water tollerance. But it still has the utilitarian advantage that is very important for most real offroad use and can still make use of the thousand and one offroad upgrades available to the classic defender platform that could see it far out perform a d4 of any modification.

I can't see how the d3/4 can win except perhaps, out of the factory without mods to the defender but with aftermarket wheels and better tyres on the disco. The exact conditions terryo placed on this discussion! You may have crafted a very small win there Terry.


The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at I'm not sure how practical that example is even for most Deefer owners. It's also certainly not something most owners have to do that regularly. And besides, you get arrested in this country for doing that. Oh, btw .... I didn't think you had to open the doors in a Deefer for it to flood .... LOL ;)


see it far out perform a d4 of any modification We're back to just climbing undulating vertical walls again .... let's just hope there are no tight corners on the way there .... ;)

[jon3950]

It was limited to Pumas because it was specifically a discussion about new vehicles. :confused:

I know I'm a bit unusual here having driven brand new versions of both. In my opinion if looked at purely in off-road terms, in showroom floor spec, the Defender has an edge on the Disco. This is down to 2 points.

The first and most important issue is the 19" rims. The Disco will go a lot of places despite these, but there is no doubt they are a hindrance due to their susceptibility to damage. This is easily fixed, but equally so are the problems the Defender has (at least in terms of off-road capability. There's nothing you can do legally to address the poor occupant safety in the Defender.)

The second is clearance. Clearance on the Disco is pretty good by any standards but the sills are closer to the ground than the Defenders. This isn't a huge point but it is an advantage to the Defender.

Other than that they are pretty evenly matched. There are places a Disco, even on 19"s, will walk through that a Defender will struggle and of course vice versa. I think there are enough examples of both here already.

Pretty much everything else comes down to personal preferences and the specific use one has in mind for their vehicle. Remember off-road use has a very broad definition.

Cheers,
Jon

[gghaggis]

The W4 challenge is no camel trophy though is it. They use a 'handicapped' points system to level the playing field. Not done it but looks like a fun day with land rovers, may check it out one day.



Yes, they do - and guess which vehicle received the most handicapping? Guess who still won?



The kind of offroad where you have to open the doors to let the river in so you sink and find traction is the kind of offroad a d4 is not going to do well at. It's not just about willing, its about being able to do it without insurance right offs.

Did exactly that last September on the Staples Track in Harvey, stuck in a 3' bog. The mud came off the carpets surprisingly well, and although the audio amp under the seat got saturated, it worked fine after a bit of a clean. (Note - no I didn't get out without a winch. The mud at the bottom was too thick to allow the car to sink further!)




Both out the showroom, inexperienced drivers on an offroad play day. The disco wins.


Thank-you - this was the OP's original premise. Stock vehicles. Even with experienced drivers.





Take both vehicles with experienced drivers on a camel trophy grade adventure and the defender wins.



And your knowledge of this comes from....? I'll tell you a little story. Edd Colby is the British Defender off-road champion. What he doesn't know about driving a Deefer isn't worth knowing. He has a very nice D90, as well as a Wildcat or two - none of them exactly "stock"! He's also the LRE (East UK) Chief driving instructor. Last August he and I were out for 2 days in a D4. The second day things started to get hairy, and even with the D4's turning circle, we had to capstan winch around trees and bogs. Very slow going. At one point we had the D4 at emergency height, balanced at 45deg on two wheels at the top of a steep descent into a bog. Edd had spotted me up the incline and jumped in the car for the descent. He said "I don't like the look of this - do you want to go on?". I replied "Sure - besides, you've done this before right?". His answer? "Well yes, but only in a D90. I've never taken a D4 through here!!".

We got through just fine. Edd was on the CB telling all his instructors where we'd just taken the D4. The point is that even the most experienced of drivers, unless they've actually pushed a D4 through that sort of terrain, would swear blind you couldn't take a D4 through it. They'll point to all these facts (and figures - Edd was big on figures) as to why the Deefer is such a good off-roader (and most of them are true - not 1ando's ideas on torque and fuel though!). But they make the mistake of thinking these facts make it better than a D4 (or D3), because most of them have no idea of how the D4 technology makes many of these facts redundant.

But the D4 drivers on here know this.

Cheers,

Gordon

[manic]

It was limited to Pumas because it was specifically a discussion about new vehicles. :confused:

D3 came out in 2004. No puma back then.

[manic]

But they make the mistake of thinking these facts make it better than a D4 (or D3), because most of them have no idea of how the D4 technology makes many of these facts redundant

Depends how you look at it. Another way is D4 traction control makes up for its road bias handicaps. It can continue to push on by selectively hammering at the brake pads but would be much better suited to a life offroad if it had all the advantages and off road considerations found in the defender .

Is the latest puma TC no good?

This best land rover review looks about right! -> http://www.l2sfbc.com/sites/pacfar.drupalgardens.com/files/201308/LRW-BestOffroad2.pdf

[LRD414]

.... Edd Colby is the British Defender off-road champion. ... Last August he and I were out for 2 days in a D4. The second day things started to get hairy, .... Edd was on the CB telling all his instructors where we'd just taken the D4....

What wheels and tyres were on the D4 Gordon?

Regards,
Scott

[rick130]

I'm not sure how practical that example is even for most Deefer owners. It's also certainly not something most owners have to do that regularly. And besides, you get arrested in this country for doing that. Oh, btw .... I didn't think you had to open the doors in a Deefer for it to flood .... LOL ;)



Someone I know too well found near 3000kg of Defender bloody well floats :eek:

Yes, it was stupid, a small mountain river in flood, 'They' had just driven 50km to a job and weren't going to turn around without at least attempting to get into the farm.
It scared the begeezus out of 'them', they had to do it twice and don't think they got any water inside, but they were more concerned with getting through and up the bank without being swept away !

:angel:

[gghaggis]

What wheels and tyres were on the D4 Gordon?

Regards,
Scott

Standard 19" rims and Pirellis.

Cheers,

Gordon

[gghaggis]

Depends how you look at it. Another way is D4 traction control makes up for its road bias handicaps. It can continue to push on by selectively hammering at the brake pads but would be much better suited to a life offroad if it had all the advantages and off road considerations found in the defender .

Is the latest puma TC no good?



Of course it is! You are simply twisting the question (and argument) - no one has EVER (in this thread) said the Defender Puma is no good.

And any perceived ABS issues you want to bring up apply just as much to the Defender as they do to the D4. The stock ones all the way back to the TD5s have traction control.

Cheers,

Gordon

[manic]

Of course it is! You are simply twisting the question (and argument) - no one has EVER (in this thread) said the Defender Puma is no good.



Thats not what i was getting at. Was a genuine question, is TC on the latest puma 2.2 improved? I know td5 traction control was a little unrefined/rubbish compared to d3, so wondering if the latest puma with TC and dsc is now running a system as effective as on the D4.

[scarry]

Thats not what i was getting at. Was a genuine question, is TC on the latest puma 2.2 improved? I know td5 traction control was a little unrefined compared to d3, so wondering if the latest puma with TC and dsc is now running a system as effective as on the D4.

No,doesn't seem to be as effective as the D4.

I am sure Gordon will be back to explain exactly.:D

[Meken]

That's why the disco needs the "ridiculous" 19 inch wheels - BIG brakes make the traction control work in a more refined way

[manic]

No,doesn't seem to be as effective as the D4.

Would be good to see some test results. Who here just got a 2.2 and wants to properly test it on a d4 - get out there and video it! Or better still if u around Melbourne I'll come with.

[LandyAndy]

No,doesn't seem to be as effective as the D4.

I am sure Gordon will be back to explain exactly.:D

The linked video of the 90 on the rock climb proves its not as effective,unless the driver forgot to press the "rock crawl" program:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:.Didnt see smoke poring off the D3 or RRS wheels on the same climb;);););)
Andrew

[rick130]

That's why the disco needs the "ridiculous" 19 inch wheels - BIG brakes make the traction control work in a more refined way


I don't buy that.

Big brakes make a difference in ultimate retardation and handle thermal stress better (more mass) but from a traction control tuning POV I can't see what difference a 300mm rotor vs whatever the D4 has will make much of a difference.
From what most have said Tdci just doesn't have as sophisticated TC as the D4 and it'd probably be something as simple as the D4's TC works better, or can be tuned better in concert with an automatic transmission vs the Defender's manual g/box.

[1nando]

Gordon;

As to your comments on me not knowing abour torque and fuel.....mmmmm.....well besides running 3 truck and dogs, 3 bogeys, a 6 toner, a 5 toner and 2 3 tonners......i dont know anything.

All i know is that the fancier the truck, the more hp the more stuff goes wrong. I live this everyday of my life, its my job.

Trucks are ladder fame chassis with engines powered to get the job done without breaking stuff. 550hp is more than enough hp to pull a truck and dog with 38 ton pay laod theres no need for a 700hp scania (most would be like: why not?).
Now as i keep saying these principles apply to the defender. Everything is focused around robust reliabily without compromising capability. This understanding is fundamental the ops post. Which is more capable of the shelf?
What does 4wding require?
Well it requires robust construction helping reliabilty with adequate power to match, throw in tyre size with excellent vehicle clearance and your good to go.

The d4 is great if you dont know how to drive , kind of like an alison auto is good in a bogey for a bloke that cant drive a road ranger box.



On a different note; d4s are so capable but i dont think ive ever seen one as a conp truck......youd think owning a d4 would mean that you can enter the arb wixh challenge and murder the competition in their solid axle sh...tboxes...

[LandyAndy]

Gordon;

As to your comments on me not knowing abour torque and fuel.....mmmmm.....well besides running 3 truck and dogs, 3 bogeys, a 6 toner, a 5 toner and 2 3 tonners......i dont know anything.

All i know is that the fancier the truck, the more hp the more stuff goes wrong. I live this everyday of my life, its my job.

Trucks are ladder fame chassis with engines powered to get the job done without breaking stuff. 550hp is more than enough hp to pull a truck and dog with 38 ton pay laod theres no need for a 700hp scania (most would be like: why not?).
Now as i keep saying these principles apply to the defender. Everything is focused around robust reliabily without compromising capability. This understanding is fundamental the ops post. Which is more capable of the shelf?
What does 4wding require?
Well it requires robust construction helping reliabilty with adequate power to match, throw in tyre size with excellent vehicle clearance and your good to go.

The d4 is great if you dont know how to drive , kind of like an alison quto is good in a bogey for a bloke that cant drive a road ranger box.



On a different note; d4s are so capable but i dont think ive ever seen one as a conp truck......youd think owning a d4 would mean that you can enter the arb wixh challenge and murder the competition in their solid axle sh...tboxes...

I dont know why you keep refering to trucks,this thread has nothing to do with trucks.
I have tried to find utube videos of Gordon competeing in off-road events in a brand new stock D3,they arent that easy to find.When I find some I will post.
Andrew

[manic]

The linked video of the 90 on the rock climb proves its not as effective,unless the driver forgot to press the "rock crawl" program:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:.Didnt see smoke poring off the D3 or RRS wheels on the same climb;);););)
Andrew

Was that the latest 2.2 though?

[LandyAndy]

Found one of Gordon in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZqHhccPkA
Andrew

[1nando]

Ill tell you what:

How about we organize a 4wd day.
Ill take my 2013 110 2.2 which cost about 20k less than any disco4. Ive spent about 15k which means it is still cheaper than a disco4 and we go out with my rear locked riding on 33s sh..tbox puma and see who has it easier offroad......id put my mortgage on it:cool:
Excuses please

[LandyAndy]

And another.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xzgECIlBPA
Andrew

[Mick_Marsh]

Found one of Gordon in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZqHhccPkA
Andrew
So, that was a standard off the show room floor as delivered D4?
The Jeeps did ok too.
Got footage of the late model Puma Defender going through the same course?

[1nando]

I dont know why you keep refering to trucks,this thread has nothing to do with trucks.
I have tried to find utube videos of Gordon competeing in off-road events in a brand new stock D3,they arent that easy to find.When I find some I will post.
Andrew

Trucks are working vehicles and so are defenders

[Celtoid]

Oh, some folks just don't do the reading, understanding, retention thing real well. :)

[jonesfam]

Well, this HAS been interesting.


Only 1 comment.
Comfort is important when off road.


Jonesfam

[Celtoid]

It's like that scene from the Simpsons where Homer just keeps on getting electrocuted .... :D

[TerryO]

I don't buy that.

Big brakes make a difference in ultimate retardation and handle thermal stress better (more mass) but from a traction control tuning POV I can't see what difference a 300mm rotor vs whatever the D4 has will make much of a difference.
From what most have said Tdci just doesn't have as sophisticated TC as the D4 and it'd probably be something as simple as the D4's TC works better, or can be tuned better in concert with an automatic transmission vs the Defender's manual g/box.

Neither do I, a diesel D3 can run 17's easy and that gives you a great selection of off road tyres. My memory might be failing me on this but from what I remember the main reason late model D4's have to run 19's is because the callipers have a different shape which stops standard OEM 18's from fitting.

My guess is this is a decision by LR to stop punters retro fitting 18's with decent sized off road tyres on them. If correct then it's to try and stop punters doing serious off roading with them because they are stuck on 19's which has very limited selections in off road tyres.

Gordon may know better than I on this but from conversations I have had with a number of people in the industry they reckon that LR (UK) is pretty shocked at some of the things we put Disco's through in Australia.
A good example for comparison in usage is each year the D3UK forum put out a calendar with happy snaps taken by members enjoying their Disco's. You get a few of them being green laned in a bit of mud and a couple of them parked in a desert shot in Morroco or some where like that, most are parked in the countryside looking pretty, then each year you get the Aussie photo's of the things being bashed to within a inch of their life in the bush or some rock garden.

While LR have built extremely useful off road tools in the D3/4 it would seem to me that they would be far happier if we didn't actually use them for the purpose they are designed for.

[Disco-tastic]

Found one of Gordon in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ZqHhccPkA
Andrew

Straight after a defender, no less. (I think its a td5 tho, not a puma)

Cheers

Dan

[Marty110]

Is the latest puma TC no good?


it is rudimentary at best compared to the D3/D4/RRS. In the High Country I had the drivers front wheel around 2' in the air and spinning when the TC grabbed it so hard it broke the diff. It happened too quick for me to be able to throttle off. Also re the comment about the Disco's TC pounding the brakes - how do you think the Deefers TC works? And in a much more uncontrolled fashion. As for opening the doors and letting the water through - the electrics under the drivers seat in the Deefer wouild not like it

[LandyAndy]

So, that was a standard off the show room floor as delivered D4?
The Jeeps did ok too.
Got footage of the late model Puma Defender going through the same course?

Was a D3 Mick,yep brand new at the time,had a bar and winch added.Shame the videos I had seem to be eaten up by cyberspace,I have uploaded comp videos of that D3 in the past.
Andrew

[Disco-tastic]

it is rudimentary at best compared to the D3/D4/RRS. In the High Country I had the drivers front wheel around 2' in the air and spinning when the TC grabbed it so hard it broke the diff. It happened too quick for me to be able to throttle off. Also re the comment about the Disco's TC pounding the brakes - how do you think the Deefers TC works? And in a much more uncontrolled fashion. As for opening the doors and letting the water through - the electrics under the drivers seat in the Deefer wouild not like it

That doesn't say much about the defender diffs either, does it?

Cheers

Dan

[Marty110]

That doesn't say much about the defender diffs either, does it?

Cheers

Dan
the rover rear diff introduced to the Puma Deefer was a let down, I fixed this by fitting an ARB locker. The front diffs have always been problematic, I fixed mine in my 300Tdi by having a mate make a 4 pinion centre for me. Sold the Puma before needing to do this. There have been a lot of Puma model Deefer diffs replaced under warranty according to mate in LR workshop...

A note re reliability too. In 3 years of ownership of my Puma Deefer it was on a flat bed twice and on the side of the track until I could fix it twice more. In 3 years of RRS it has been on a flat bed 0 and on the side of the road a further 0. I know the RRS is not a Disco but its on a Disco chasis just running a V8 Diesel instead of a 6.... also touching wood on the RRS comment...... I also acknowledge that there is a lot of variation in reliability within models runs too - I consider I have had good ones. Also always service every 10,oookm and always do proactive work to avoid breakdowns as I rely on my vehicles for work which has always been travelling to the 'bush' - never want to let down a client if I could help it.

[rick130]

That doesn't say much about the defender diffs either, does it?

Cheers

Dan


The front CWP and entire front end is the same as your old D1. ;)
Shock load anything and there is a point at which it will fail sooner rather than later.
Personally I'm surprised it wasn't the weak as **** 32 spline outer axle ends or a CV.

But we've already been down this road, a lot of us aren't that impressed with some of Land Rover's engineering and material choices in certain areas but like anything man made, it's a compromise.

[manic]

Wow these pumas sound a bit rubbish. Were defenders ruined by adding an ECU under the seat, weaker diffs and a retrofit TC system, when all the should have added was a set of lockers?

Still though if you take a new one, seal up the ECU bits, fit some Ashcroft lsd diffs and halfshafts ... It's gonna be formidable!

[incisor]

wow

here we go loop de loop....

let me know when you start turning to butter!

[manic]

wow

here we go loop de loop....

let me know when you start turning to butter!

TerryO the forum moderator started this fracas. Would have hit the post button with a knowing grin. Fire him! :D

[Marty110]

I guess what it comes down to is this: both are excellent vehicles with their own strengths and weaknesses. Make a choice based on personal preference, know and understand the strengths and weaknesses and then modify and drive accordingly. For some it will be comfort, safety and economy and others the ability to personalise/modify, and connection with the 'drive' off-road. I have owned and loved both types and heavily modified the Deefers and enjoyed the comfort and ease of the RRS. I must say that modifying Deefers is as much about enjoying doing it as the need to do it though! Once you sort the diffs that is..... Just make sure that whatever vehicle you opt for you learn to drive it and make use of it's potential and also learn and pro-actively manage the weaknesses.

[TerryO]

TerryO the forum moderator started this fracas. Would have hit the post button with a knowing grin. Fire him! :D


Manic, how totally unfair of you to think I would start a thread just to stir up Puma, sorry Defender owners. ... :angel:

I actually like you guys in the flat earth society.

... :p

[strangy]

Maybe i missed this somewhere back so if its been mentioned just ignore me.
One of the best things to happen to 4WD vehicles of any description is a modern auto.
This in istelf would contribute largely to the video Landy Andy posted and in an overall capability for the average punter.
Something the Defender/Puma lacks and something many have lamented and retrofitted.

[Celtoid]

Neither do I, a diesel D3 can run 17's easy and that gives you a great selection of off road tyres. My memory might be failing me on this but from what I remember the main reason late model D4's have to run 19's is because the callipers have a different shape which stops standard OEM 18's from fitting.

My guess is this is a decision by LR to stop punters retro fitting 18's with decent sized off road tyres on them. If correct then it's to try and stop punters doing serious off roading with them because they are stuck on 19's which has very limited selections in off road tyres.

Gordon may know better than I on this but from conversations I have had with a number of people in the industry they reckon that LR (UK) is pretty shocked at some of the things we put Disco's through in Australia.
A good example for comparison in usage is each year the D3UK forum put out a calendar with happy snaps taken by members enjoying their Disco's. You get a few of them being green laned in a bit of mud and a couple of them parked in a desert shot in Morroco or some where like that, most are parked in the countryside looking pretty, then each year you get the Aussie photo's of the things being bashed to within a inch of their life in the bush or some rock garden.

While LR have built extremely useful off road tools in the D3/4 it would seem to me that they would be far happier if we didn't actually use them for the purpose they are designed for.

It truely is an enigma Terry. The company that's spent more on off-road R&D and continues to do so, than any other Company .... Yet they inhibit the cars potential.

I understand the vast majority of sales are for folks that will never use the cars potential, so why continue to improve their theoretical performance?

Mystery.

Would be interesting to know what drives the decision makers.

[rick130]

Manic, how totally unfair of you to think I would start a thread just to stir up Puma, sorry Defender owners. ... :angel:

I actually like **** stirring you guys in the flat earth society.

... :p

There. Fixed it for you. :D

[rick130]

Would be interesting to know what drives the decision makers.

Having had an inside line to Australian engineering 15-20 years ago, I can tell you they get bloody frustrated too. ;)

[LandyAndy]

There. Fixed it for you. :D

A moderator wouldnt even dream of behaving like that:):):):):):)
Andrew

[rick130]

A moderator wouldnt even dream of behaving like that:):):):):):)
Andrew

:o


:Rolling:

[Meken]

Neither do I, a diesel D3 can run 17's easy and that gives you a great selection of off road tyres. My memory might be failing me on this but from what I remember the main reason late model D4's have to run 19's is because the callipers have a different shape which stops standard OEM 18's from fitting.



My guess is this is a decision by LR to stop punters retro fitting 18's with decent sized off road tyres on them. If correct then it's to try and stop punters doing serious off roading with them because they are stuck on 19's which has very limited selections in off road tyres.



Gordon may know better than I on this but from conversations I have had with a number of people in the industry they reckon that LR (UK) is pretty shocked at some of the things we put Disco's through in Australia.

A good example for comparison in usage is each year the D3UK forum put out a calendar with happy snaps taken by members enjoying their Disco's. You get a few of them being green laned in a bit of mud and a couple of them parked in a desert shot in Morroco or some where like that, most are parked in the countryside looking pretty, then each year you get the Aussie photo's of the things being bashed to within a inch of their life in the bush or some rock garden.



While LR have built extremely useful off road tools in the D3/4 it would seem to me that they would be far happier if we didn't actually use them for the purpose they are designed for.


It's Gordon who explained why the 3.0l D4 TC (particularly hdc) works SO much better than earlier models / variants - bigger rotors & calipers - much greater pressure applied to the wheel without traction - emulating a locked diff (but an infinitely variable amount of "lock")

[TerryO]

It truely is an enigma Terry. The company that's spent more on off-road R&D and continues to do so, than any other Company .... Yet they inhibit the cars potential.

I understand the vast majority of sales are for folks that will never use the cars potential, so why continue to improve their theoretical performance?

Mystery.

Would be interesting to know what drives the decision makers.

Profits is what drives decision makers and the only way to make profit and stay sustainable on low volume products is to sell at a premium. To sell at a premium you need to stand out from the crowd.

Awards by jorno's raving on about how good the new model is with all the new technological improvements well beyond the opposition easily translates into bragging rights for new owners and in part is what helps sell new niche expensive vehicles.

LR design Disco's to do amazing things off road but that doesn't mean LR actually want everyone to use those off road abilities to their maximum, if they do in the first three years then chances are things will get broken and warranty claims will be made which in turn affects the bottom line.

Fitting 19" wheels as far as I can see really is a self limiting factor, if you could just retrofit 18's with lots of sidewall because of a larger selection of tyres in comparison to the 19's then many would be tempted to push further and take greater risks.

That is how I see it working, I might be totally wrong but would LR ever admit it if I was correct?

[manic]

:o


: Rolling :

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ

[Disco-tastic]

The front CWP and entire front end is the same as your old D1. ;)
Shock load anything and there is a point at which it will fail sooner rather than later.
Personally I'm surprised it wasn't the weak as **** 32 spline outer axle ends or a CV.

But we've already been down this road, a lot of us aren't that impressed with some of Land Rover's engineering and material choices in certain areas but like anything man made, it's a compromise.

Haha i never experienced that - it had lockers front and rear when i bought it - the previous owner had blown up the front diff!

I am worried though when the traction control can create enough force to blow up the diff... that story doesn't give me a lot of confidence in a defenders ability - they break themselves!

Cheers

Dan

[strangy]

Video Link: https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ (https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Bwa ha ha.

[Marty110]

I am worried though when the traction control can create enough force to blow up the diff... that story doesn't give me a lot of confidence in a defenders ability - they break themselves!

as was said, it's the shock load. Going from rapidly spinning wheel to sudden stop, there does not appear to be anything progressive about the application of the brakes to the spinning wheel, plus then trying to transfer the drive through the diff to the grounded wheel. But then maybe I was just unlucky!!

[rar110]

Maybe i missed this somewhere back so if its been mentioned just ignore me. One of the best things to happen to 4WD vehicles of any description is a modern auto. This in istelf would contribute largely to the video Landy Andy posted and in an overall capability for the average punter. Something the Defender/Puma lacks and something many have lamented and retrofitted.

I think an auto is a necessary feature of the next defender if it's to sell 70,000 + units per year.

[DiscoMick]

Profits is what drives decision makers and the only way to make profit and stay sustainable on low volume products is to sell at a premium. To sell at a premium you need to stand out from the crowd.

Awards by jorno's raving on about how good the new model is with all the new technological improvements well beyond the opposition easily translates into bragging rights for new owners and in part is what helps sell new niche expensive vehicles.

LR design Disco's to do amazing things off road but that doesn't mean LR actually want everyone to use those off road abilities to their maximum, if they do in the first three years then chances are things will get broken and warranty claims will be made which in turn affects the bottom line.

Fitting 19" wheels as far as I can see really is a self limiting factor, if you could just retrofit 18's with lots of sidewall because of a larger selection of tyres in comparison to the 19's then many would be tempted to push further and take greater risks.

That is how I see it working, I might be totally wrong but would LR ever admit it if I was correct?

I thik you'll find the bigger brakes are about being able to stop on sealed roads and in comparisons with other high performance vehicles despite the Disco being a heavy vehicle, much heavier than the Defender. The Defender is much lighter and slower than a D4, so doesn't need such big brakes. 19 inch wheels and big brakes are now common on big heavy vehicles.

As for TC, I can't comment on the version in the D4, but I'm impressed with the TC in my 2009 Puma. It means you would have to seriously question the need for a rear diff lock, particularly if it turned off the front TC as happens in the new Hilux/Fortuner.


Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Marty110]

As for TC, I can't comment on the version in the D4, but I'm impressed with the TC in my 2009 Puma. It means you would have to seriously question the need for a rear diff lock, particularly if it turned off the front TC as happens in the new Hilux/Fortuner.

no it doesnt. I had my rear locker in when the incident occured that broke my diff. Having the rear diff lock with TC and the 6 speeds extra low first gear means that you could creep slowly up steep loose slopes without wheel spin and feeling very secure.

[Redback]

Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear, I reckon my Morris 1100 is better than any D4 or Defender, floats on fluid you know:no2:

[strangy]

Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear, I reckon my Morris 1100 is better than any D4 or Defender, floats on fluid you know:no2:
Without a cup holder it's nothing...😜

[AndyG]

I imagine the D6 will have autonomous mode, go pro and a sat link to provide that market segment the ultimate off road experience from their lounge room without all that yucky outdoor stuff. :D

Edit, this could actually be close to the truth. A **** scared button and you touch nothing, like the parking options out now

[scarry]

Without a cup holder it's nothing...��

And no traction control,definitely a nothing...:o:D

[tact]

A very poorly executed river crossing, by people who clearly did not understand the vehicle they were driving.

Of course that could never happen in Puma, they don't have a computer. Oh, hang on....

Cheers,
Jon

To you point on TDCi's in water....
1. Just happened to float past my FB feed...
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10208709379318772&set=gm.963259593709442&type=3&theater

2. My own barge. Stock standard suspension and wheels/tyres - no snorkel.https://www.facebook.com/nwmclean/videos/vb.813717043/10153134228727044/'type=3&theater

[DiscoMick]

I imagine the D6 will have autonomous mode, go pro and a sat link to provide that market segment the ultimate off road experience from their lounge room without all that yucky outdoor stuff. :D

Edit, this could actually be close to the truth. A **** scared button and you touch nothing, like the parking options out now


Nah, pretty soon it'll just be a case of, "Beam me up Scotty". Straight to your destination without bothering with all that messy driving stuff.

[Redback]

Without a cup holder it's nothing...��


And no traction control,definitely a nothing...:o:D

Jeez guys, where's your sense of adventure, any decerning man stops at a park to drink their Latte:p

[MrLandy]

Definition of a cup holder? Defenders have at least four...used to have a great rectangular spot in front of the cubby, now it's got a stupid cup holder insert that only holds cups! Talk about retrograde! And there are the front fender wing tops / two beer holders, one even has drain holes :p Cheers

[DiscoMick]

True, but the Defender does have nifty in-built thong recesses under the front seats. They are very important for off road driving so your thongs don't foul the accelerator. Does the D4 have thong holders?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[tact]

True, but the Defender does have nifty in-built thong recesses under the front seats.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

"Thong" (??). Or did you mean thongs? :twisted:

[MrLandy]

True, but the Defender does have nifty in-built thong recesses under the front seats. They are very important for off road driving so your thongs don't foul the accelerator. Does the D4 have thong holders?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Yes thongs! And don't forget the under seat contraband hidden storage, not just cups, but bottle holders as well. Used to be empty but now you have to move the electrics to a Mulgo box! There's also the sleeping bag holders along the curved hip line in the back. Talk about built in off road accessories!

[Marty110]

used to have a great rectangular spot in front of the cubby, now it's got a stupid cup holder insert that only holds cups! :p Cheers
yeah but you can pull the cup holder insert out and then stick some vinyl to cover the exposed wood bits and it holds iced coffee cartons perfectly :p

[DiscoMick]

Yes thongs! And don't forget the under seat contraband hidden storage, not just cups, but bottle holders as well. Used to be empty but now you have to move the electrics to a Mulgo box! There's also the sleeping bag holders along the curved hip line in the back. Talk about built in off road accessories!

Yep and the space under the back seat is just right for soft stuff.
Also, I can't imagine loading 13 bags of sloppy goat poo in the back of a D4.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Disco-tastic]

Yep and the space under the back seat is just right for soft stuff.
Also, I can't imagine loading 13 bags of sloppy goat poo in the back of a D4.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

What is it with defender owners and goat/cow/horse poo?! They always seem to brag about how because a defender is not worth caring about you can literally fill it with crap!

:p

Dan

[manic]

I can't imagine loading 13 bags of sloppy goat poo in the back of a D4.


Wouldn't catch me putting sloppy goat poo in the back of my defender. ****s gotta be crusty!

[strangy]

Putting thongs under the front has probably confused a few.
Like many words and terms in the progressive society "thong" or "thongs" would be considered essential under garments for the typical D3/4 driver
That's right savour that image- you can't unimagine itdde07

[DiscoMick]

Definitely too much information.
Defender drivers would never wear thong underwear - boxers for us (or Commando ).
Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Disco-tastic]

What is it with defender owners and goat/cow/horse poo?! They always seem to brag about how because a defender is not worth caring about you can literally fill it with crap!

:p

Dan

Argh! I should have said:

"All i ever hear from defender owners is how (full of) crap they are!"

:D:D

Dan

[frantic]

Maybe it's to do with the reliability of the transit/puma donk? In that they don't have to worry about it seizing like. 2.7tdv6.
Maybe that's why the op started this thread?
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/201149-d3-diesel-front-timing-cover-explosion-8.html

[scarry]

You guys have obviously never looked under the seats of a D4.
There is heaps of room,even under the middle row seats when they are laid down flat.

In fact under the front passenger seat in our D4 there is always a snatch strap,three large shackles in a soft bag,and a round piece of ply to go under the jack if needed.

I have never used it on our jack,but has been handy for helping others.

Oh,and it has a tow bar that is handy to pull a trailer full of poo,or whatever:D

And EAS to keep the trailer and vehicle level so it doesn't all slop around too much.;)

[rick130]

Jeez guys, where's your sense of adventure, any decerning man stops at a park to drink their Latte:p


:eek:

Damn, I stop at a caf? for my piccolo latt?. :D

[Disco Muppet]

I can't help it if lingerie clad women are leaving their undergarments in my Discovery.
Besides, we all know Defender drivers only wear socks and sandals.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

Jeez guys, where's your sense of adventure, any decerning man stops at a park to drink their Latte:p


:eek:

Damn, I stop at a cafe for my piccolo latte. :D

[scarry]

I can't help it if lingerie clad women are leaving their undergarments in my Discovery.
Besides, we all know Defender drivers only wear socks and sandals.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

In a D4 you don't need any shoes,there is no heat coming from everywhere to burn your feet:D:p

[strangy]

104577

[LandyAndy]

104577

Thats the exact mental image I got when I read the post.:):):):):):):):):)
Andrew

[MR LR]

Maybe it's to do with the reliability of the transit/puma donk? In that they don't have to worry about it seizing like. 2.7tdv6.
Maybe that's why the op started this thread?
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/201149-d3-diesel-front-timing-cover-explosion-8.html
Now you are just clutching at the spot on the ground where a straw once left it's shadow, many moons ago...

At least Discovery owners can relax, knowing they don't need to carry a list with them of all tow truck operators in the area they chose to drive their vehicles.

Puma's are hardly the pinnacle of anything, except under performance, only surpassed in that area by a diesel Great Wall.

They look cool, I'll give them that.

[Celtoid]

Spot on MR LR ...


And Homer leans forward and gets another electric shock .... DOH!!!

[Celtoid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdqIJabjTJk


or maybe this is what I'm thinking about :D

Jack in the Box .... Jack Nicholson voice over ...


Just the funny parts ....

[1nando]

What you blokes dont know about diesel engines and whats required in a working vehicle (which a defender is, ever since its inception) is quiet funny. Ignorance is bliss. .......
My opinion of D4 owners has sunk to about the same as landcruiser owners......just saying

[frantic]

Now you are just clutching at the spot on the ground where a straw once left it's shadow, many moons ago...

At least Discovery owners can relax, knowing they don't need to carry a list with them of all tow truck operators in the area they chose to drive their vehicles.

Puma's are hardly the pinnacle of anything, except under performance, only surpassed in that area by a diesel Great Wall.

They look cool, I'll give them that.

Umm no I'm asking you to join the dots. The OP, also posted in the thread I linked, specifically about having to spend a serious sum on a known issue (was it oil pump ripping loose or main bearings, can't recall) resulting in the seized tdv6 donk....
Now, he's also said he's bought a D4 as well as kept the re-engined D3....... Now maybe he's asking in a roundabout way to justify keeping the D3 for offroad use instead of buying a used defender........:eek:But maybe that's also another load of manure to throw in the back of the Defender.:D

[Redback]

Simple answer for me would be to sell the D3, buy a Defender and set it up for weekend trips away and offroading.

The D4 can be set up for outback touring, and towing the Camper or Caravan, that way you have the best of both worlds.

Simples;)

[MR LR]

What you blokes dont know about diesel engines and whats required in a working vehicle (which a defender is, ever since its inception) is quiet funny. Ignorance is bliss. .......
My opinion of D4 owners has sunk to about the same as landcruiser owners......just saying
How many Pumas do you seriously think are working vehicles in this country? I would say less than 25%, the rest are owned by hipsters simply because they look cool. That is why normal people buy modern Defenders...

The Td5 was a better workhorse engine, the Tdi was even better.

On the contrary, at least 2/3 of the Land Cruiser 70 series out there, are work vehicles. Big torquey V8 is fantastic in a work vehicle...!

The times have changed with regard to what is the best work vehicle, it is no longer 1948... Just as Jeeps are no longer used as work vehicles.

[bemm52]

How many Pumas do you seriously think are working vehicles in this country? I would say less than 25%, the rest are owned by hipsters simply because they look cool. That is why normal people buy modern Defenders...

The Td5 was a better workhorse engine, the Tdi was even better.

On the contrary, at least 2/3 of the Land Cruiser 70 series out there, are work vehicles. Big torquey V8 is fantastic in a work vehicle...!

The times have changed with regard to what is the best work vehicle, it is no longer 1948... Just as Jeeps are no longer used as work vehicles.

Ouch:o:( my Puma 130 works hard:twisted:

[1nando]

How many Pumas do you seriously think are working vehicles in this country? I would say less than 25%, the rest are owned by hipsters simply because they look cool. That is why normal people buy modern Defenders...

The Td5 was a better workhorse engine, the Tdi was even better.

On the contrary, at least 2/3 of the Land Cruiser 70 series out there, are work vehicles. Big torquey V8 is fantastic in a work vehicle...!

The times have changed with regard to what is the best work vehicle, it is no longer 1948... Just as Jeeps are no longer used as work vehicles.



You've just proven you know absolutely nothing about diesels engines and how they fit into a working vehicle. Nothing! You must be refering to the v8 anchor in the toyota??? The one with excellent inefficiency and poor performance pound for pound.......yeah mate great motor. Thats why they use v8 diesels in 3 and 5 ton trucks cause their the bees knees.....whoops forgot they are all 4 cylinder deisel turbo in tipper trucks. Go have another latte and do some reading....when you understand the principles of a working vehicle pm me and ill let you test drive one of our trucks. You'll get it then ;)

For those that think here we go again...try to get it a defender was created since its launch in 1948 as a working vehicle, it is designed to chug along all day every day just like trucks are. Thats why these vehicles have such a great life span. This is fundamental to 4wding because 4wding is tough on a vehicle.

Your toyota coment is more thank likely true, however the puma is a working vehcile whether its used as one is up to the owner! Your d4 makes more power and torque than all our Hino and Isuzu tippers.......Isuzu should have used the d4 as their truck platform?

As for capabilty, it comes from whether or not something is fit for purpose. The puma like any vehicle has its flaws, just like the d4. I would bet that if you were to take a puma and a d4 from the showroom and drive them striaght into a 5 day 4wd weekend trip that the d4 would come back wounded more so than the defender. The defender is designed for it, its why its been used by miliatrys around the world etc. The principles of it being a tough solid unit stem from its working vehicle design principles.....
It took me about 8 posts to get that out the way i wanted too...:rolleyes:

[ozscott]

This thread is great. I am restraining myself...feels liberating. :)

Cheers

[manic]

How many Pumas do you seriously think are working vehicles in this country? I would say less than 25%, the rest are owned by hipsters simply because they look cool. That is why normal people buy modern Defenders...

The Td5 was a better workhorse engine, the Tdi was even better.

That 25% figure smells of arse. Worthless rubbish.

One minute they are all high sock, sandle wearing Normans and the next they are 75% trend setting hipsters.

Defenders look cool? What do discos look like?

Ooo im about to sound out some statistics from my own ass trumpet.

5% of discovery drivers use them offroad.

70% of disco drivers were not allowed to get a defender because of wife/kids.

100% of kids in a disco want to have a dad with a defender.

15% of disco drivers cant tie up their shoe laces and think laces are redundant because Velcro is a newer technology.

[1nando]

That 25% figure smells of arse. Worthless rubbish.

One minute they are all high sock, sandle wearing Normans and the next they are 75% trend setting hipsters.

Defenders look cool? What do discos look like?

Ooo im about to sound out some statistics from my own ass trumpet.

5% of discovery drivers use them offroad.

70% of disco drivers were not allowed to get a defender because of wife/kids.

100% of kids in a disco want to have a dad with a defender.

15% of disco drivers cant tie up their shoe laces and think laces are redundant because Velcro is a newer technology.

Lol....lol....i love it. Well done sir...i reckon those stats are pretty spot on.....

That was a good laugh :thumbup::p

[Marty110]

loving the comedy coming out in this thread!! I'll answer below in relation to my RRS, not a Disco I know.....

5% of discovery drivers use them offroad. Guess my RRS is in this 5%

70% of disco drivers were not allowed to get a defender because of wife/kids. Yeah, they like to be safe while towing Defenders out of trouble

100% of kids in a disco want to have a dad with a defender. Well my kids, grown up though, wanted me to quit the Defender and get the sport - they love the power, comfort and safety. To quote one 'glad you are in a safe 4WD now Dad'

15% of disco drivers cant tie up their shoe laces and think laces are redundant because Velcro is a newer technology. I wear thongs......
:angel:

[MR LR]

You've just proven you know absolutely nothing about diesels engines and how they fit into a working vehicle. Nothing! You must be refering to the v8 anchor in the toyota??? The one with excellent inefficiency and poor performance pound for pound.......yeah mate great motor. Thats why they use v8 diesels in 3 and 5 ton trucks cause their the bees knees.....whoops forgot they are all 4 cylinder deisel turbo in tipper trucks. Go have another latte and do some reading....when you understand the principles of a working vehicle pm me and ill let you test drive one of our trucks. You'll get it then ;)

For those that think here we go again...try to get it a defender was created since its launch in 1948 as a working vehicle, it is designed to chug along all day every day just like trucks are. Thats why these vehicles have such a great life span. This is fundamental to 4wding because 4wding is tough on a vehicle.

Your toyota coment is more thank likely true, however the puma is a working vehcile whether its used as one is up to the owner! Your d4 makes more power and torque than all our Hino and Isuzu tippers.......Isuzu should have used the d4 as their truck platform?

As for capabilty, it comes from whether or not something is fit for purpose. The puma like any vehicle has its flaws, just like the d4. I would bet that if you were to take a puma and a d4 from the showroom and drive them striaght into a 5 day 4wd weekend trip that the d4 would come back wounded more so than the defender. The defender is designed for it, its why its been used by miliatrys around the world etc. The principles of it being a tough solid unit stem from its working vehicle design principles.....
It took me about 8 posts to get that out the way i wanted too...:rolleyes:
I guess we have very different definitions of a working vehicle...

My background is in farming, there's a reason we pick big diesels over little ones.

I bet my stat's are not far off the money at all... But what would I know about Land Rover owner demographic :p

What is a Latte?

[1nando]

Define big diesel??? A 550hp kenworth 409 (working vehicle) is only 6 cyclinder diesel turbo....not v12 twin turbo 1 million hp motor (2015 modle).. truck and dog with 38 ton pay laod. Whats impressive is the torque, down low where its needed to pull the weight.

For a farmer who makes his living of the land or live stock he needs maximum efficiency for maximum return. A big, sluggish boat anchor is not in their best interest. The puma has a "down tuned" 360nm of torque at 2000rpm, its perfect for a working vehicle. Returns maximum torque with best fuel economy at the lowest possible rev range for that engine. Its designed to chug along for a long long time. Thats why transits clock up more than a million kms!

Its a light engine keeping vehicle weight down. Important for 4wding

Its power is spread over a wide torque curve making it easier to drive over ruff stuff without potentially breaking something, this is a key concept in a working vehicle because it has to be as mechanically solid as possible to much power in the wrong areas compromises this rule. Id love to have a 1000hp truck and dog but the reality is it would break all the time when being pushed hard daily.

[letherm]

15% of disco drivers cant tie up their shoe laces and think laces are redundant because Velcro is a newer technology.

No, no, no. That 15% use slip on shoes. :p:p:p

Martin

[Meken]

Define big diesel??? A 550hp kenworth 409 (working vehicle) is only 6 cyclinder diesel turbo....not v12 twin turbo 1 million hp motor (2015 modle).. truck and dog with 38 ton pay laod. Whats impressive is the torque, down low where its needed to pull the weight.

For a farmer who makes his living of the land or live stock he needs maximum efficiency for maximum return. A big, sluggish boat anchor is not in their best interest. The puma has a "down tuned" 360nm of torque at 2000rpm, its perfect for a working vehicle. Returns maximum torque with best fuel economy at the lowest possible rev range for that engine. Its designed to chug along for a long long time. Thats why transits clock up more than a million kms!

Its a light engine keeping vehicle weight down. Important for 4wding

Its power is spread over a wide torque curve making it easier to drive over ruff stuff without potentially breaking something, this is a key concept in a working vehicle because it has to be as mechanically solid as possible to much power in the wrong areas compromises this rule. Id love to have a 1000hp truck and dog but the reality is it would break all the time when being pushed hard daily.


The torque curve on the puma looks similar to the disco curve. Both max torque @ 2000rpm.

[Celtoid]

The torque curve on the puma looks similar to the disco curve. Both max torque @ 2000rpm.


Depending on the model, max torque of 600+ nm is available around 2000 RPM on a D4 (higher RPM on the older cars). There is also 500 nm AVAILABLE around 12 - 1400 RPM. There is also everything in between. This is a driver discretion issue ... as in ... apply just the right amount at just the right time .... you get that?


What point are you trying to make?


The D4 CAN produce (you get that don't you?) 600+ at around 2000+ RPM.


The Puma produces a similar ratio curve maybe .... but nowhere near the actual output at any stage. You get that?


Of course ... the D4 is overpowered and is designed to tear everything to shreds as it cannot be regulated! The car and the whole world are at threat.

[MrLandy]

What is a Latte?

Latte is milk.
A latte is 'a milk'.
A cafe latte is a coffee with milk.

A Defender is a Land Rover predominantly designed for off road work.
A Discovery is s Land Rover predominantly designed for on road work.

Simple.

[Celtoid]

Define big diesel??? A 550hp kenworth 409 (working vehicle) is only 6 cyclinder diesel turbo....not v12 twin turbo 1 million hp motor (2015 modle).. truck and dog with 38 ton pay laod. Whats impressive is the torque, down low where its needed to pull the weight.

For a farmer who makes his living of the land or live stock he needs maximum efficiency for maximum return. A big, sluggish boat anchor is not in their best interest. The puma has a "down tuned" 360nm of torque at 2000rpm, its perfect for a working vehicle. Returns maximum torque with best fuel economy at the lowest possible rev range for that engine. Its designed to chug along for a long long time. Thats why transits clock up more than a million kms!

Its a light engine keeping vehicle weight down. Important for 4wding

Its power is spread over a wide torque curve making it easier to drive over ruff stuff without potentially breaking something, this is a key concept in a working vehicle because it has to be as mechanically solid as possible to much power in the wrong areas compromises this rule. Id love to have a 1000hp truck and dog but the reality is it would break all the time when being pushed hard daily.


Mate, you're doing it again .... banging on about working vehicles and this, that and the other. What has this got to do with the original OP's point? You've previously forwarded a lot of stuff that you thought were facts but actually failed the 'so what' or reality test. You never addressed any of those and just tried to shift the scope or bang on about the things that were irrelevant again. Not saying for a sec that everything you said was wrong but it was a combination of incorrect (subjective or urban myth), 100% accurate or irrelevant. But certainly not enough to make a difference to the OPs question.




Define big diesel??? A 550hp kenworth 409 (working vehicle) is only 6 cyclinder diesel turbo....not v12 twin turbo 1 million hp motor (2015 modle)..


How many CCs is the Kenworth? It's like a 2 litre, yeah? ;-) And they are making a new or have made this Million HP V12 motor? Why? 'Cause they want to put truck drivers and Logistics companies out of business as their trucks will be too expensive to run? WTF would they do that?


For a farmer who makes his living of the land or live stock he needs maximum efficiency for maximum return. A big, sluggish boat anchor is not in their best interest. The puma has a "down tuned" 360nm of torque at 2000rpm, its perfect for a working vehicle. Once again ... off topic. The D4 was never suggested as a Farm Vehicle.....the thread was what?


However ... sluggish? ... the D4 compare to a 'nibble" Deefer ... That brings tears to my eyes .... have you actually even seen a photo of a D4 let alone been around one, read anything about their stats, etc? Obviously not! ... Geez!


Light engine keeping vehicle weight down How much does this engine weigh in comparison to a D4? Numbers, stats please!


Its power is spread over a wide torque curve making it easier to drive over ruff stuff without potentially breaking something, this is a key concept in a working vehicle because it has to be as mechanically solid as possible to much power in the wrong areas That's a claim or a statement mate ....I'll claim you'd be hard pushed to find a vehicle that is better at supplying completely controllable power and torque over any terrain than a D4 .... but hey, that's just my statement....it holds as much water as yours.


Id love to have a 1000hp truck and dog but the reality is it would break all the time when being pushed hard daily.[/QUOTE] Sounds like a driver issue .... is my flippant remark. However ... once again we're comparing Main Battle Field Tanks to Dune Buggies ....


360nm of torque at 2000rpm, its perfect for a working vehicle. Returns maximum torque with best fuel economy at the lowest possible rev range FACT? Stats, show me the stats ... I think you'll find that is BS!

That's why Ford Transits clock up more than a million kms! Transit vans do really well off-road I hear .... freakin hell .... relevant facts to the thread!?


Oh ... and BTW .... no **** ... a Jeep Wrangler is the best off-road machine out there ..... FACT! (depending on your measurable ;-))

[shanegtr]

Define big diesel??? A 550hp kenworth 409 (working vehicle) is only 6 cyclinder diesel turbo....not v12 twin turbo 1 million hp motor (2015 modle).. truck and dog with 38 ton pay laod. Whats impressive is the torque, down low where its needed to pull the weight.

For a farmer who makes his living of the land or live stock he needs maximum efficiency for maximum return. A big, sluggish boat anchor is not in their best interest. The puma has a "down tuned" 360nm of torque at 2000rpm, its perfect for a working vehicle. Returns maximum torque with best fuel economy at the lowest possible rev range for that engine. Its designed to chug along for a long long time. Thats why transits clock up more than a million kms!

Its a light engine keeping vehicle weight down. Important for 4wding

Its power is spread over a wide torque curve making it easier to drive over ruff stuff without potentially breaking something, this is a key concept in a working vehicle because it has to be as mechanically solid as possible to much power in the wrong areas compromises this rule. Id love to have a 1000hp truck and dog but the reality is it would break all the time when being pushed hard daily.

Big diesel? QSK60 that we run in our haul trucks! Around 3000hp. Interesting fact for you, we run these out to around 20,0000hrs in the trucks, same engine in the loaders but detuned a bit are struggling to make half that life. Reason? We in the trucks that engine is fairly unstressed, but in the loaders they spend almost 100% of the time running flat out. So I think with work loads being equal, an unstressed engine should have less issues, the rest of the driveline is a different matter I suppose. But getting back to little vehicles, obviously the many people who by 70 series cruisers for work purposes prefer the bigger lazy v8 diesel ( even thou it is somewhat under powered for its size and also ineffecient)

[Celtoid]

Latte is milk.
A latte is 'a milk'.
A cafe latte is a coffee with milk.

A Defender is a Land Rover predominantly designed for off road work.
A Discovery is s Land Rover predominantly designed for on road work.

Simple.


A Discovery is s Land Rover predominantly designed for on road work. Which despite it's on-road, world beating bias will still eat most supposed tough, tried and tested 4WDs off-road .... including the Deefender. ;)


Do I smell coffee? .... oh, time to wake up people .... :D

[tact]

I wear thongs......
:angel:


From the panty drawer of whichever female it is you have access to?
:twisted:

[Chops]

Although my old D1 was a V8, as opposed to the 2.2/4 Puma, ultimately, I'd have to say it was easier to drive out in the scub than my Puma.
I don't think that made the D1 any more capable, but it made driving much easier. "Crawling" over or through obstacles with the auto meant you could really place it exactly how you wanted to. Sometimes with the manual, if you were rocked so to speak, it could upset how your letting the clutch out, or "riding" it, this stuff things up, maybe create unwanted wheel spin or something.
I'd love to try an auto in my 2.4 to see how it goes though for a true comparison. However, it still won't address any driver comfort issues.

I class these two particular cars pretty close as my particular Puma has no ABS, therefore no Traction aid. Of the few tracks I've done in both cars, neither has come up short on performance. Although I had a V8 in the D1, I didn't really use the power when I could have I guess, and there have been times in the Puma, she's been valve bouncing to try and get every bit of power out of it.

I think personally, the Disco would have it, and that's because of the capabilities of the auto and all its traction aids, this allows for ease of driving.

[roverrescue]

Getting back to actual differences...
Tonight I watched all for adventure episodes to and from Bathurst heads.
I kinda sorta know that road. The boys biggest biggest biggest problem was GVM
200 s with heavy trailers absolutely suck in those conditions.
Hell 200s or any 3t ish four bites suck in that slop.

I've Ben there and can categorically say my fender ute with sub 1000kg boat would have got in and out from the heads in about 5hours vs their 2 days.


Weight kills

S

[roverrescue]

Getting back to actual differences...
Tonight I watched all for adventure episodes to and from Bathurst heads.
I kinda sorta know that road. The boys biggest biggest biggest problem was GVM
200 s with heavy trailers absolutely suck in those conditions.
Hell 200s or any 3t ish four bites suck in that slop.

I've Ben there and can categorically say my fender ute with sub 1000kg boat would have got in and out from the heads in about 5hours vs their 2 days.


Weight kills

S

[1nando]

Celtoid:

"Boat anchor": was refering to the toyota v8 just for you info not the tdv6..no working vehicle is over powered! Its about reliabilty, to much power to much stress on mechanical parts, especailly off road!

The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.

[TerryO]

Celtoid:


The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.


Yep your missing something, actually your missing a lot. Do you even read the threads in your own section? Because if you did you would read lots of story's of failed chassis.

Show me one Disco with a failed chassis, just one! ... That's right you can't.

[TerryO]

Ok old mate, here is another one that seriously calls into question the strength and safety of your 'tough' Defenders.

Why are there so many threads in the Defender section on buying and installing roll cages and which ones are best? Can you find one picture anywhere of a D3/4 with a flat roof after a roll over?

I won't even mention the lack of any basic passenger or driver safety devices like airbags. Let's just look at how strong a Defender roof is.

Do a Goggle search on crash damaged Defenders and there are dozens of them with flat roofs. These vehicles aren't tough, they are basically unstable and bloody dangerous when they roll.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Ooo im about to sound out some statistics from my own ass trumpet.

5% of discovery drivers use them offroad.

70% of disco drivers were not allowed to get a defender because of wife/kids.

100% of kids in a disco want to have a dad with a defender.

15% of disco drivers cant tie up their shoe laces and think laces are redundant because Velcro is a newer technology.

Good sir, I like the cut of your jib.



No, no, no. That 15% use slip on shoes. :p:p:p

Martin

Let's not forget the poor sould who wear crocs!



Getting back to actual differences...
Tonight I watched all for adventure episodes to and from Bathurst heads.
I kinda sorta know that road. The boys biggest biggest biggest problem was GVM
200 s with heavy trailers absolutely suck in those conditions.
Hell 200s or any 3t ish four bites suck in that slop.

I've Ben there and can categorically say my fender ute with sub 1000kg boat would have got in and out from the heads in about 5hours vs their 2 days.


Weight kills

S

If we are starting to bring the Toyota into the equation, yesterday I drove a 200 series landcruiser Sahara on the Toyota test track at the tamworth music festival. 130K of vehicle over what I considered to be a track with moderate difficulty (within the realms of what they could create in a public park). 30 degree side slopes, cross axle ramps, bumpy rock section, 30 degree hill climb and descent.

Despite being in a car with all the bells and whistles (including air conditioned seats - I had a chilly ballsack by the end of the drive :cool:), the biggest thing that I felt by the end of it was that it was such a detached drive from what I was used to in the defender. Some thoughts that could be extrapolated a similar class vehicle, being the D4:


Independent suspension - Not fussed, vehicle still bottomed out over some of the rocky sections
Side angles were not an issue, but similarly, still far from the max vehicle side angle and well within the 'safe zone' for a defender (or disco?)
Steering feedback was vague. Couldn't feel what the wheels were doing, or wanted to do.
Toyota suspension setup was comfortable, but not as direct feeling as what I'm used to. Probably a plus for onroad work, but once again, left me feeling detached from the offroad drive.
ABS and hill descent controls sounded like they were ghoing to rip the chassis apart as they actuated on the 30 degree hill descent. I'd much prefer to be in control in such a situation, rather than being a steering wheel attendant just along for the ride.
As nice as the air conditioned comfort and my chilly nether regions were... it's not the same experience. Just like a good meal, the involvement of all your senses add to the enjoyment of the experience. In the toyota i was in a comfortable coccoon driving a course. In the defender, I'm more involved / engaged with the course


So... capability wise, will we ever know what is more competent off road between the D4 nad the puma? as I've mentioned before, probably not without some rock-solid real world guidelines and practical testing.
But IMO, there's more to offroad than comfort and to some extent capability. It's about getting in touch with the environment as well. Which the defender is very good at.

[Meken]

Depending on the model, max torque of 600+ nm is available around 2000 RPM on a D4 (higher RPM on the older cars). There is also 500 nm AVAILABLE around 12 - 1400 RPM. There is also everything in between. This is a driver discretion issue ... as in ... apply just the right amount at just the right time .... you get that?


What point are you trying to make?


The D4 CAN produce (you get that don't you?) 600+ at around 2000+ RPM.


The Puma produces a similar ratio curve maybe .... but nowhere near the actual output at any stage. You get that?


Of course ... the D4 is overpowered and is designed to tear everything to shreds as it cannot be regulated! The car and the whole world are at threat.


I wasn't saying they have the same torque.
I'm saying they have similar torque curves so the delivery of the torque proportionally is similar. I was referring to comments about puma torque from idle.
Looking at vehicles weights in proportion to torque - the defer is about 80% of D4 weight 60% of torque (so the deefer is like a D4 with 480nm)

[TerryO]

Celtoid:


The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.


Old mate believe me we all get it that you drive big trucks, good for you.

You keep raving on about Defenders being work vehicles, some are, but most aren't. Show me all the threads in the Defender section talking about how their Defenders are 'work vehicles'. Sure some are on farms and apparently on a regular basis carry lots of goat, cow and or chicken poo for some strange reason inside their vehicles so they then need to hose them out, again each to their own if carrying poo inside your vehicle is your thing, but can you please explain how does this improve their 4 wheel drive prowess?

Having read posts in the Defender section for years I can say with confidence that the vast majority of Defenders are owned and used for exactly the same things as Disco owners use their vehicles for, so how about giving it a rest on the furphy about them being work trucks.
How do they measure up as every day drivers? In comparison when you measure a number of criteria to a Disco, obviously pretty poorly sorry to say That's fine though, each to their own, drive what you want to, but bugger all of what you have said comes even close to the original comparison about off road prowess between the two vehicles when compared with roughly the same size and spec tyres fitted.

They say ignorance is bliss and dare I say it but it's pretty obvious that you know nothing about late model Disco's otherwise you wouldn't keep ranting about them being overpowered. I bet you have never driven one seriously either on or off road, yet you want to tell everyone about what it right and what is wrong.

[1nando]

Ok old mate, here is another one that seriously calls into question the strength and safety of your 'tough' Defenders.

Why are there so many threads in the Defender section on buying and installing roll cages and which ones are best? Can you find one picture anywhere of a D3/4 with a flat roof after a roll over?

Do a Goggle search on crash damaged Defenders and there are dozens of them with flat roofs. These vehicles aren't tough, they are basically unstable and bloody dangerous when they roll.


Dont disagree with that, its body on ladder frame chassis. This gives a better centre of gravity and keeps vehicle weight down in the defenderhowever it is unsafe.

But the reason you see rolled defenders in the first place is because people push them hard, harder than what most d4s will ever be pushed

[TerryO]

Dont disagree with that, its body on ladder frame chassis. This gives a better centre of gravity and keeps vehicle weight down in the defenderhowever it is unsafe.

But the reason you see rolled defenders in the first place is because people push them hard, harder than what most d4s will ever be pushed


Wrong! Just about all of the pictures of rolled Defenders shows it happening on public roads, these tough vehicles apart from having, not so strong chassis, are basically unstable. They have no stability control or decent braking systems, so when the drivers get in a sticky situation they can more easily lose control and roll their vehicles or end up driving head on into other vehicles or immovable objects. I guess that is when the built in crumple zones and airbags protect the Defender occupants from serious injury or worse.

Bugger! That's right they don't have airbags or built in crumple zones or stability control or good brakes, or reinforced roofs that don't just fold flat if rolled.

But that's ok, because the original comparison does not mention vehicle safety standards or poo carrying capability or strength and reliability of drive trains including diff's, gearboxes, clutches, drive shafts, cv's and or chassis strength and durability, it only attempted to compare in a sensible balanced discussion the off road prowess if both vehicles have similar sized and spec tyres.

So how are we going with the original comparison?

[frantic]

First there are a few measurable things that you can use.
How about RTI? (ramp travel index):D a defender from stock can do around 540- 580, it's suspension is easily modified for far better. A D3/4 can do about 520, BUT, and it's a big one, thats at standard disco height, raise it to offroad settings and it get far worse, around 25% worse! This is important if you need full contact to move forward, not one or two wheels waving to the horizon. :D
As to cracking a chassis, let's put1- 1.5 ton in a D3/4 boot and see how long it lasts? Ohh hang on some Disco's can only carry 1/3 that. :D
Oops I forgot the other world class design feature on a D3 that they changed, the towbar position.....
Pps TerryO, check real world accident stats from us
uk, it's being mentioned on AULRO before. Defender still number 3 safest, least fatalities, behind a rr and a ovlov. Disco is further down the list. Reality always beats fantasy/theory.

[Tombie]

I'll just leave this here...
104680

I love Defenders, and Discoveries...

But this thread is trending beyond ridiculous...

[AndyG]

Land Rover Cliff Jumper (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Wrecks_Cliff_jumper.htm)

Do this in a D4, :D
Walk away :o
Repair it for
Get LR to use it in an advert :D

All in the interest of promoting silliness in this thread.

[Celtoid]

Celtoid:

"Boat anchor": was refering to the toyota v8 just for you info not the tdv6..no working vehicle is over powered! Its about reliabilty, to much power to much stress on mechanical parts, especailly off road!

The point im trying to make is simple:
The d4 is over powered, has poor body clearance, 19 inch rims with ****y tyres, poor angles of approach etc, spare tyre under vehicle, smaller cargo bay, smaller payload of 250kg, is less fuel efficient.....great for 4wding?

The point; offraod is similar to a working vehicles environment! The d4 specs read well on tarmac parked during a school run
...

Try to get it mate, the d4 has nothing in common with the traits of a tough working vehicle. By the way Land Rover refers to the defender as "their toughest vehicle" not the d4....am i missing something.


As Terry O said .... you're pretty much missing everything. :D


But hey, that's your prerogative.

What has impressed me about this crazy long thread is the fact that folks with very strong 'opinions' on things have jibbed at each other a bit, in funny and silly ways .... but everybody is keeping it clean. It's nice to see. From what I've heard about other forums this would be a bloodbath within the first few posts .....


Hope I don't jinx it ... LOL!!!

[strangy]

Tombie is indeed correct it is getting ridiculous.

This ramp test proves Discos are useless.


http://www.9news.com.au/National/2016/01/16/18/52/Sydney-woman-walks-away-relatively-unscathed-after-driving-up-tow-truck-ramp-and-flipping-car

...and Rick130 wasn't sure this should be posted.😇

[rangieman]

Wow some of you have realy lost the plot here :confused:

[Celtoid]

Land Rover Cliff Jumper (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Wrecks_Cliff_jumper.htm)

Do this in a D4, :D
Walk away :o
Repair it for
Get LR to use it in an advert :D

All in the interest of promoting silliness in this thread.


Did you ever see the one in Scotland where a farmer on the west coast had had a heart attack and drove (D3 or 4) off a massive cliff? The car looked incredibly intact ... like you could almost drive it away. The driver was no worse off from the adventure either.


It generated a lot of fun emails in my office, as my first D4 was enroute and I was trying to track it down. One of the boys created a fake newspaper article complete with photo shopped pics and titled "Kev's New Car Found" .... albeit with a few delays anticipated in regards to the delivery ... :D


It was then followed up later with pics of the truck roll-over in Russia. The one that was full of D4s and RRSs.

[Celtoid]

Tombie is indeed correct it is getting ridiculous.

This ramp test proves Discos are useless.


Sydney woman walks away relatively unscathed after driving up tow truck ramp and flipping car in dramatic crash - 9news.com.au (http://www.9news.com.au/National/2016/01/16/18/52/Sydney-woman-walks-away-relatively-unscathed-after-driving-up-tow-truck-ramp-and-flipping-car)

...and Rick130 wasn't sure this should be posted.😇





She must have turned the DSC off ..... LOL!!!

[Chops]

Steve, I watch those AFA programs too, and I do it with horror waiting to see what will break next.
I would imagine that this sort of work is just what the Defer is designed to do, and take it in its stride with ease. This is part of why we bought our Puma.

Having said that, the Puma would be loaded to the max as would I suspect any other vehicle used would be too. With the knowledge that a Disco can't carry the same weights as a Defer, then obviously one wouldn't be able to take as much as the guy in the Defer. Not forgetting, it takes a very disciplined person to not take more than is required, and we all have a tendency to overload our vehicles, another reason why I chose the 110 over the 130.
So then a question to you. If one had the D4 obviously with a few mods, lift tyres ect, how do you think these would fair?
Like any vehicle, you can crash your way through as the boys from AFA seem to be doing most of the time, but, would the Disco with all its inbuilt modcons be doing it better or should I say easier than the standard Puma?
I'm guessing most would put 33's on the Puma to start with, and I still don't know how tall you can go on the Disco though, even with the 18" rims.

All in all, it would be a nice test to do,,, wish I could afford it :D

[1nando]

Wrong! Just about all of the pictures of rolled Defenders shows it happening on public roads, these tough vehicles apart from having, not so strong chassis, are basically unstable. They have no stability control or decent braking systems, so when the drivers get in a sticky situation they can more easily lose control and roll their vehicles or end up driving head on into other vehicles or immovable objects. I guess that is when the built in crumple zones and airbags protect the Defender occupants from serious injury or worse.

Bugger! That's right they don't have airbags or built in crumple zones or stability control or good brakes, or reinforced roofs that don't just fold flat if rolled.

But that's ok, because the original comparison does not mention vehicle safety standards or poo carrying capability or strength and reliability of drive trains including diff's, gearboxes, clutches, drive shafts, cv's and or chassis strength and durability, it only attempted to compare in a sensible balanced discussion the off road prowess if both vehicles have similar sized and spec tyres.

So how are we going with the original comparison?

The original comparison is: which is better offroad?

In my opinion my defender is a lot like my trucks. It chugs along and does what i ned too.

Off road it comes to life, gives me feedback through the steering and i feel engaged with the vehicle.

Offroad capability is what you wanted to compare. My thoughts are (110 vs d4):

-Defender tough platform due to its working vehicle design and heritage
-has bigger wheels and tyres. Real offroad size tyres not low profile street tyres!
-has better body clearance when axles are under full articulation/flex
-better approach and exit angles
Def d4
Axel clearance 250 209-216
Body clearance 314 216
Ramp angle 149.7 158
Approach 48.7 32.2
Departure 35.6 22.2
- spare tyre located in much better poistion
- more engaging drive, feed back is fantastic offroad.....vague on road admittedly. This isnt a fact but my opinion!
-lighter: def 2 ton d4=2.5
-bigger pay load to carry food, drinks, spares etc
-roof carring capacity def=150kg d4=75kg.......4wding usually requires extra gear so this is pretty handy

How did i do?

[ozscott]

What does better mean? What are the parameters? Does it mean able to go the furthest over rocks at low range speed? Does it mean go further in mud? Does it mean having the best visibity of objects? Does it mean least likely to end up on a tow truck if bashed around? Does it mean the best wading ability? Does it include those with the widest aftermarket bolt on gear? Does it mean highest carrying capacity off road? Does it mean the one that streses its motor and drivetrain least offroad? Does it mean best traction up.steep hills? Is it the one that gives the particular driver or the average driver the most confidence of overcoming obstacles or finishing a long safari. ? The list would go on. And that is stock trim. When it comes to modification of course the live axle vehicles are able to be modified so that is a consideration.

One thing is for sure Defender and independently suspended Land Rovers give great choice from 2 polar opposed ends of the 4wd spectrum (not ability) and those who drive each typically have a particular view. It would be incredibly boring if LR only made one style wouldnt it.

That 130 looks like it has a very long tray...and was probably massively abused. Its the first deefer chassis breakage photo i have seen...now Tritons and other Jap utes....seen quite a few of them.

All the best
Cheers

[gghaggis]

The original comparison is: which is better offroad?

In my opinion my defender is a lot like my trucks. It chugs along and does what i ned too.

Off road it comes to life, gives me feedback through the steering and i feel engaged with the vehicle.

Offroad capability is what you wanted to compare. My thoughts are (110 vs d4):

-Defender tough platform due to its working vehicle design and heritage
-has bigger wheels and tyres. Real offroad size tyres not low profile street tyres!
-has better body clearance when axles are under full articulation/flex
-better approach and exit angles
Def d4
Axel clearance 250 209-216
Body clearance 314 216
Ramp angle 149.7 158
Approach 48.7 32.2
Departure 35.6 22.2
- spare tyre located in much better poistion
- more engaging drive, feed back is fantastic offroad.....vague on road admittedly. This isnt a fact but my opinion!
-lighter: def 2 ton d4=2.5
-bigger pay load to carry food, drinks, spares etc
-roof carring capacity def=150kg d4=75kg.......4wding usually requires extra gear so this is pretty handy

How did i do?

Better than most of your other, laughable posts about better torque delivery, better COG, better fuel consumption :-)) :-))

A few points though....

*First of all, that's not how you spell "axle". :-)
*The D4 is a stronger, more rigid platform, less chassis flex.
*Stock D4 has a maximum of around 310mm clearance at its lowest point. That's at Emergency height, which also improves the approach / departure angles as well.
* A Defender is a better load-carrying vehicle. That helps make it a good tourer, and work vehicle. It has no relevance to its off road ability.

Most LR nuts have driven a Defender. Most haven't driven a D4, so I sympathise with the fact that you're somewhat at a disadvantage in this argument. But try to stick with what's relevant, and gain some understanding of the opposition vehicle.

For instance, you're probably overlooking the fact that the D4 can change its throttle mapping to suit the terrain, allowing for far smoother delivery of torque than you could ever experience in a manual Defender.

Cheers,

Gordon

[gghaggis]

First there are a few measurable things that you can use.
How about RTI? (ramp travel index):D a defender from stock can do around 540- 580, it's suspension is easily modified for far better. A D3/4 can do about 520, BUT, and it's a big one, thats at standard disco height, raise it to offroad settings and it get far worse, around 25% worse! This is important if you need full contact to move forward, not one or two wheels waving to the horizon. :D


??? Have you ever driven a D4 in an RTI test? Neither have I, but I've driven a D3 ;)

The D4 is designed to have maximum flex at off road height - but you have to select low range to open up the cross axle valves when doing a ramp test.

Cheers

Gordon

[1nando]

Better than most of your other, laughable posts about better torque delivery, better COG, better fuel consumption :-)) :-))

A few points though....

*First of all, that's not how you spell "axle". :-)
*The D4 is a stronger, more rigid platform, less chassis flex.
*Stock D4 has a maximum of around 310mm clearance at its lowest point. That's at Emergency height, which also improves the approach / departure angles as well.
* A Defender is a better load-carrying vehicle. That helps make it a good tourer, and work vehicle. It has no relevance to its off road ability.

Most LR nuts have driven a Defender. Most haven't driven a D4, so I sympathise with the fact that you're somewhat at a disadvantage in this argument. But try to stick with what's relevant, and gain some understanding of the opposition vehicle.

For instance, you're probably overlooking the fact that the D4 can change its throttle mapping to suit the terrain, allowing for far smoother delivery of torque than you could ever experience in a manual Defender.

Cheers,

Gordon


Whats made this such a debate is the op's post of: which is better offroad? Thats what he basically was asking.

For a long time in this thread d4 owners were convinced that they're vehicles were better offroad compared to defender pumas. I just cant agree with that but i agree thet both have good and bad points. Both are capable and provably better suited to different scenarios.
In regards to the ops post my opinion is the defender is the more capable offroad vehicle, and is a great platform to modify and improve on.

Great cars, both landys.....

[gghaggis]

Whats made this such a debate is the op's post of: which is better offroad? Thats what he basically was asking.

For a long time in this thread d4 owners were convinced that they're vehicles were better offroad compared to defender pumas. I just cant agree with that but i agree thet both have good and bad points. Both are capable and provably better suited to different scenarios.
In regards to the ops post my opinion is the defender is the more capable offroad vehicle, and is a great platform to modify and improve on.

Great cars, both landys.....

Good post. We can happily agree to disagree.

Cheers
Gordon

[DiscoMick]

I must be a hipster. I just bought a new pair of sandals. Also, the other day someone asked if I was growing a pony tail.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Celtoid]

What does better mean? What are the parameters? Does it mean able to go the furthest over rocks at low range speed? Does it mean go further in mud? Does it mean having the best visibity of objects? Does it mean least likely to end up on a tow truck if bashed around? Does it mean the best wading ability? Does it include those with the widest aftermarket bolt on gear? Does it mean highest carrying capacity off road? Does it mean the one that streses its motor and drivetrain least offroad? Does it mean best traction up.steep hills? Is it the one that gives the particular driver or the average driver the most confidence of overcoming obstacles or finishing a long safari. ? The list would go on. And that is stock trim. When it comes to modification of course the live axle vehicles are able to be modified so that is a consideration.

One thing is for sure Defender and independently suspended Land Rovers give great choice from 2 polar opposed ends of the 4wd spectrum (not ability) and those who drive each typically have a particular view. It would be incredibly boring if LR only made one style wouldnt it.

That 130 looks like it has a very long tray...and was probably massively abused. Its the first deefer chassis breakage photo i have seen...now Tritons and other Jap utes....seen quite a few of them.

All the best
Cheers


You've hit the nail on the head mate ...


Trying to get a handle on what the broad spectrum of off-road scenarios are ... or even the fact that there is a spectrum (which is a tad subjective) has proven quite difficult for some on this thread.


Cheers.

[frantic]

??? Have you ever driven a D4 in an RTI test? Neither have I, but I've driven a D3 ;)

The D4 is designed to have maximum flex at off road height - but you have to select low range to open up the cross axle valves when doing a ramp test.

Cheers

Gordon
Umm no.on both counts
Simple physics,mean you cannot lift the D4 xx mm higher and have more travel. More up but far less down. In a live axle like a defender you can increase wheel travel/articulation and body clearance by fitting a simple kit like gwyn lewis and 2in springs lift.
RTI have been done by many various groups, not going to search on my phone.

[TerryO]

Ok this is not meant to create friction between the flat earthers over in the Defender section and the Latte set here, so, believe it or not I am asking a serious question.
Why? Well with all this talk of how rear new or late model 110 Defenders (Puma) are and how expensive they have become I went and checked Carpoint and found a 2015 Limited edition 110 second hand for over $90k. The only thing that looked different was the mainly orange paint. But even so other older higher mileage 110's were still in my opinion very expensive for what you get, so are they worth it and are they better off road than a late model similar spec Disco?

My thoughts on this well the only real claim to fame a Defender has is its serious off road ability, but seriously is a late model fairly standard Defender better off road when it gets in to the serious rough stuff than similar modded D3/4?

Now I'm not talking about a twin locked Defender on 35" muddies with a four inch suspension and body lift. I'm trying, if possible, to compare similar modified and spec vehicles.

To make it fair both vehicles need to be similar in spec and the closest to a Disco is a 110. To also keep it fair and comparible they need similar sized and spec tyres so let's say up to the standard OEM Defender size which is just under 32" from memory, but they can both be Muddies plus what ever wheels required to fit those tyres. I have included a couple of other mods that you commonly see added to many 4x4's if you go for a day out bashing the tracks up around Lithgow or I bet most other favourite weekend distinctions.

Front bull bar.

Rock sliders

Snorkel

And that is it, no other mods, yes you can remove things like mud flaps etc put the spare in the back if you want to as this costs nothing.

Sure there are plenty of other bits but this is just about trying to compare their off road ability with them as standard and similar spec as possible. I have put rock sliders in because I'm not talking about actually testing these machines with the least amount of panel damage. Plus compare their value for money now a Defender can cost as much as a new D4.

So given this fairly mild spec which is better bush bashing a Disco or a Defender?


A few have got all hung up over the word better, for no good reason either that I can see if they had read the whole post.

If the whole post is read in context then I believe it's reasonably clear what the basic criteria is and the kind of conditions one could reasonably expect in such a comparison at their local reasonably challenging 4wd tracks that many frequent on weekends for a bit of fun. That being the kind of off road 4x4 driving conditions were mud tyres, rock sliders, front bull bar and a snorkel might be needed to get you through.
Plus to make it relevant and fair I made it the two most similar in size and seating capacity wagons that LR make in both ranges, then I put them on similar sized and spec tyres so again they are equal and the vehicles ability is tested not how big or aggressive a particular vehicles tyres are and the advantage that would give.

So to move the focus away from the word better, let's say which of the two vehicles is the more capable serious off roader in this spec? ... ;)

[gghaggis]

Umm no.on both counts
Simple physics,mean you cannot lift the D4 xx mm higher and have more travel. More up but far less down.

You're forgetting the cross-axle valving, which will force the opposite wheel down. You get more "up" and a little less "down".

I have the figures for my RTI somewhere - I did it at on-road, off-road and extended heights. My best score was at off-road height. I'll see if I can dig them out.

Cheers,

Gordon

[tact]

Better than most of your other, laughable posts about better torque delivery, better COG, better fuel consumption :-)) :-))

A few points though....
[...]
*The D4 is a stronger, more rigid platform, less chassis flex.
[...]
For instance, you're probably overlooking the fact that the D4 can change its throttle mapping to suit the terrain, allowing for far smoother delivery of torque than you could ever experience in a manual Defender.


1. In off-road situations a more rigid chassis is not necessarily a plus. Chassis flex is not equal to "weaker".

2. You are not overlooking that TDCi's change throttle map when low range is selected? This too allows for far more controlled delivery of torque.

[1nando]

1. In off-road situations a more rigid chassis is not necessarily a plus. Chassis flex is not equal to "weaker".

2. You are not overlooking that TDCi's change throttle map when low range is selected? This too allows for far more controlled delivery of torque.

Here i go again......Tact is 100% correct because truck chasssis are built under that exact principle, and believe me they take a beating!

[Celtoid]

Whats made this such a debate is the op's post of: which is better offroad? Thats what he basically was asking.

For a long time in this thread d4 owners were convinced that they're vehicles were better offroad compared to defender pumas. I just cant agree with that but i agree thet both have good and bad points. Both are capable and provably better suited to different scenarios.
In regards to the ops post my opinion is the defender is the more capable offroad vehicle, and is a great platform to modify and improve on.

Great cars, both landys.....



I'm not sure that's true at all. I recon most D4 owners wouldn't have the foggiest idea how capable the car is. They would actually believe that it is nothing more than a shiny shopping trolley that can go on the beach.....a bit like what Deefer owners think too ... LOL!!!


The good thing is, I've seen more D4s off-road these days than I ever have D3s or earlier. Maybe that's just a perception thing. Owners are discovering (no pun intended) just how capable their vehicle is and then they start pushing it further each time as their confidence grows. I think that's great.


Your last comment is absolutely spot on :D

[tact]

My view is that the gun you cannot fire, the bomb you cannot drop, is of no use at all.

My own personal take is that if I were the proud owner of a new D4 I would not be able to bring MYSELF to take it off-road and expose it to damage as little as pinstriping from undergrowth. So to me it is not even an option as an off-roader. (...and yes, if a diamond studded special edition anniversary/end of line Defender cost as much as a D4, I'd not take that bludger off-road either.)

A bog standard new TDCi Defender though is (was) significantly less expensive. The TDCi DCPU is much closer in price to things like dual cab hilux's et al.

That vehicle (the TDCi DCPU) is a vehicle I have no qualms driving from showroom into Malaysian jungles and pinstriping it grandly. My first real off-road outing in my TDCi DCPU saw boulders demolish all 4 folding side steps leaving barely discernible crimps in the lowest body side skirt panels.

Fix? Remove the side steps and junk them when I got home. Had I been driving a shiny new D4 we'd have camped up at the first sign of possible body damage and missed the rest of the trip

That's just me. It doesn't say the D4 wouldn't have made the trip (and the many more thereafter).

[frantic]

A few have got all hung up over the word better, for no good reason either that I can see if they had read the whole post.

If the whole post is read in context then I believe it's reasonably clear what the basic criteria is and the kind of conditions one could reasonably expect in such a comparison at their local reasonably challenging 4wd tracks that many frequent on weekends for a bit of fun. That being the kind of off road 4x4 driving conditions were mud tyres, rock sliders, front bull bar and a snorkel might be needed to get you through.
Plus to make it relevant and fair I made it the two most similar in size and seating capacity wagons that LR make in both ranges, then I put them on similar sized and spec tyres so again they are equal WRONG and the vehicles ability is tested not how big or aggressive a particular vehicles tyres are and the advantage that would give . Actually to reiterate this point again. your increasing the D3/4 tyre size by 2-3inches,(at a cost of ?$6-9,000) the defender should be allowed the same to be "fair" otherwise it is no longer a fair comparison. It then becomes a engineer approved D3/4 is much better in a specific spot than a stock standard defender. Either make the tyres stock or allow BOTH the same percentage increase otherwise its just a self-reassurance therapy thread. :D

So to move the focus away from the word better, let's say which of the two vehicles is the more capable serious off roader in this spec? ... ;)
Even with those $20,000 plus worth of mods to the disco compared to 1500-2000 on the defender, as that's all a defender owner is allowed to do according to your post, its still defender 70 disco 30.
Disco is now 2.7 ton, defender is now 2.1, or 500kg payload v 900kg.
Why is this important you say, ok lets get serious, say 4 avg bodies 20 days away from civilization/ frappe lattes in the desert :D. Equals 280kg bodies, plus water at 5lt/day/person=400kg, plus food at 1kg/day/person=80kg.
This gives 760kg load. (even if you halve the time the weight is still 520kg which overloads the disco)
In a disco this is overloaded BY 50% before you even think about tent, extra fuel, bedding, clothes, dunny paper, med kit etc
In a defender 110 you still have 140kg for other items.
hell Lets just do the current 5 day weekend for 4 mates. 280kg bodies:D(in my case more like 4x100)(4x70), , 100kg water, aircomp 15kg, 25kg 20lt fuel jerry can, 5 slabs 45kg, big esky and ice 40kg, food 30kg, tent 15kg bedding 20kg ,clothes 10kg, Tool box/few spares 15kg.
So if you went to camp this weekend with 3 "smallish";) mates the load is 615. So with the other accessories(around 100kg) the disco is overloaded by 100kg plus.
So disco owners which 2 mates do you leave behind?
Now you want to do some harder tracks in the 2nd or 3rd morning when sober, you really should think of a 2nd spare with a compressor, another 40-50kg for a spare, 10-15kg compressor and another 15kg for a roof rack to store it.
Looks like its just you alone.


P.s a lot have the stock clearances mixed up.
Disco has 258 in off-road not 300 , defender 250. but defender has 300+before contact anywhere else which creates an interesting question.
If your in a group and the bloke in front goes through a creek/muddy puddle and you cant see him dislodge and flip up a 350mm high rock, what is it going to hit underneath the disco besides your axle on your way over it? In a defender if the pumpkin misses , the axle would contact then not much else. In a disco?
Here are the 2 factory specs to compare.
Off-Road Vehicle Specifications - Discovery (http://www.landrover.com/vehicles/discovery/specifications.html)
Off-Roader Specifications and Pricing - Defender (http://www.landrover.com/vehicles/defender/specifications.html)

[gghaggis]

P.s a lot have the stock clearances mixed up.
Disco has 258 in off-road not 300 , defender 250. which creates an interesting question.
If your in a group and the bloke in front goes through a creek/muddy puddle and you cant see him dislodge and flip up a 350mm high rock, what is it going to hit underneath the disco besides your axle on your way over it? In a defender if the pumpkin misses , the axle would contact then not much else. In a disco?
Here are the 2 factory specs to compare.
Off-Road Vehicle Specifications - Discovery (http://www.landrover.com/vehicles/discovery/specifications.html)
Off-Roader Specifications and Pricing - Defender (http://www.landrover.com/vehicles/defender/specifications.html)

Yes, a lot are confused about ground clearance of the D4. But please don't insult me by putting me in that group. The D4 goes a lot higher than the "off-road" setting

Cheers

Gordon

[ozscott]

What is happening with payloads. The D2 is 600-750kg. Why are bigger heavier vehciles not getting a big payload relative to their weight (and the worst example is the 200 series cruiser).

Cheers

[Bytemrk]

I'm loving this thread....such passion, even if at times we are going around in circles;)

Obviously my personal chose of vehicle is a D4, there are things I need that a Defender simply can't deliver, no matter how much I may love to have one. My vehicle has to compromise between work, family and off road fun and a D4 does that spectacularly well.

Both are awesome vehicles and both are extremely capable. " Which is better off road" I suspect it really depends very much on what sort of "off-road " we are talking and the willingness of the driver to push the vehicle.

I am dead sure mine is far more capable than me!

Frantic raises some very valid points about weight - if you are trying to travel with a car full of people unsupported for an extended period, a D 3/4 is the wrong choice in my view. If I was building a dedicated expedition vehicle it would not be around a D4 - but that is because of load carrying capability - not off road ability.

Besides, I prefer to travelling alone anyway. :p

Put side by side on equivalent terrain, driven by drivers with similar levels of skill and a similar willingness to go for it, I suspect there may not be much in it.

I've taken mine through some pretty rough terrain and I'm confident I could take it anywhere I could take a defender.

Which of the two vehicles is better off road - buggered if I know.

But I do know my toes stay dry crossing rivers :angel: :D

[Mick_Marsh]

Even with those $20,000 plus worth of mods to the disco compared to 1500-2000 on the defender, as that's all a defender owner is allowed to do according to your post, its still defender 70 disco 30.
Disco is now 2.7 ton, defender is now 2.1, or 500kg payload v 900kg.
Why is this important you say, ok lets get serious, say 4 avg bodies 20 days away from civilization/ frappe lattes in the desert :D. Equals 280kg bodies, plus water at 5lt/day/person=400kg, plus food at 1kg/day/person=80kg.
This gives 760kg load. (even if you halve the time the weight is still 520kg which overloads the disco)
In a disco this is overloaded BY 50% before you even think about tent, extra fuel, bedding, clothes, dunny paper, med kit etc
In a defender 110 you still have 140kg for other items.
hell Lets just do the current 5 day weekend for 4 mates. 280kg bodies:D(in my case more like 4x100)(4x70), , 100kg water, aircomp 15kg, 25kg 20lt fuel jerry can, 5 slabs 45kg, big esky and ice 40kg, food 30kg, tent 15kg bedding 20kg ,clothes 10kg, Tool box/few spares 15kg.
So if you went to camp this weekend with 3 "smallish";) mates the load is 615. So with the other accessories(around 100kg) the disco is overloaded by 100kg plus.
So disco owners which 2 mates do you leave behind?
Now you want to do some harder tracks in the 2nd or 3rd morning when sober, you really should think of a 2nd spare with a compressor, another 40-50kg for a spare, 10-15kg compressor and another 15kg for a roof rack to store it.
Looks like its just you alone.

Very valid points, Mr frantic.
The thing I am getting here is Discovery 3/4 drivers don't have mates. Defender drivers are very socially active and have lots of friends.
This further explains why, on my expedition last Thursday, every Defender (and a few Discovery 1 and 2) I passed waved but the Discovery 3 and 4 drivers did not even bat an eyelid.

[dullbird]

You know all this talk about dry toes on a river crossing. When we were at the cape we were there in a defender 110 and phil was there in the D4 the cars were very well matched even though we were towing considerably more weight. We did have to winch the D4 out but that was due to circumstance.

I will say though I'm glad our toes got wet.

You might ask why

Because when we both entered a over bonnet depth creek, the D4 went in and the thing was so bloody well sealed that it began to float!!

Now I'm sorry but i would prefer my car not to float and loose traction [emoji4]
He did get across ok but the vehicle did take a change of angle for the few seconds it floated which could have been a little hairy if there was any sort of flow to this water which there wasn't. (Obviously wouldn't have crossed it if it was)

But just pointing out sometimes flaws work in your favour :)

[Mick_Marsh]

But just pointing out sometimes flaws work in your favour :)
It's not a flaw. It's a design feature.

[1nando]

It's not a flaw. It's a design feature.

Theres a great clip on youtube of a cruiser floating and loosing control, fortunately for the driver he gets lucky and makes it to the other side.....its actually amazing because he stays on the gas pedal the whole time

[ozscott]

He was probably lucky he stayed on the gas. Stops water entering the ex pipe...plus gives a bit of forward motion

[LandyAndy]

You know all this talk about dry toes on a river crossing. When we were at the cape we were there in a defender 110 and phil was there in the D4 the cars were very well matched even though we were towing considerably more weight. We did have to winch the D4 out but that was due to circumstance.

I will say though I'm glad our toes got wet.

You might ask why

Because when we both entered a over bonnet depth creek, the D4 went in and the thing was so bloody well sealed that it began to float!!

Now I'm sorry but i would prefer my car not to float and loose traction [emoji4]
He did get across ok but the vehicle did take a change of angle for the few seconds it floated which could have been a little hairy if there was any sort of flow to this water which there wasn't. (Obviously wouldn't have crossed it if it was)

But just pointing out sometimes flaws work in your favour :)

Did Phil lift the D4 into extended off road height before attempting the crossing??? It would have helped.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Can anybody tell me what happens when you let go of the steering wheel at 100kmh on a dirt road in a defender and reef on the handbrake???
Andrew

[letherm]

It's not a flaw. It's a design feature.

So that's what the oars that came with the car are for. :p

Martin

[Bytemrk]

Can anybody tell me what happens when you let go of the steering wheel at 100kmh on a dirt road in a defender and reef on the handbrake???
Andrew


Ladies and Gentlemen... the management wishes to advise you don't try this at home :eek: :eek::angel:


Yes Andy.... in the Disco it's doable and quite amazing.....

[Celtoid]

My view is that the gun you cannot fire, the bomb you cannot drop, is of no use at all.

My own personal take is that if I were the proud owner of a new D4 I would not be able to bring MYSELF to take it off-road and expose it to damage as little as pinstriping from undergrowth. So to me it is not even an option as an off-roader. (...and yes, if a diamond studded special edition anniversary/end of line Defender cost as much as a D4, I'd not take that bludger off-road either.)

A bog standard new TDCi Defender though is (was) significantly less expensive. The TDCi DCPU is much closer in price to things like dual cab hilux's et al.

That vehicle (the TDCi DCPU) is a vehicle I have no qualms driving from showroom into Malaysian jungles and pinstriping it grandly. My first real off-road outing in my TDCi DCPU saw boulders demolish all 4 folding side steps leaving barely discernible crimps in the lowest body side skirt panels.

Fix? Remove the side steps and junk them when I got home. Had I been driving a shiny new D4 we'd have camped up at the first sign of possible body damage and missed the rest of the trip

That's just me. It doesn't say the D4 wouldn't have made the trip (and the many more thereafter).


You obviously get paid too much money!


What is the point of a nice paint job and accessories, if you are so willing to allow it to get trashed? Sure a standard Deefer is cheaper than a D4 ..... but it's still a lot of money compared to the average income. I grew up in Glasgow, Scotland .... shipbuilders ..... I'd have been punched to the floor if I ever voiced that disregard for equipment.


I'm pretty certain there are lost of Australians that dislike that disregard too ...

[dullbird]

Yes Andy he had the extended rods in and traveled the car in extended height

[Celtoid]

Yes Andy he had the extended rods in and traveled the car in extended height




Extended rods in a Deefer?

[dullbird]

No D4?

[rick130]

Can anybody tell me what happens when you let go of the steering wheel at 100kmh on a dirt road in a defender and reef on the handbrake???
Andrew


No one in their right mind does that with a transmission handbrake !

What's a transmission handbrake ?
One that a real 4WD utilises. :angel:

[Steve223]

having owned a D3 and still owning a Defender 110 TD5 as well as well as Discovery 2 TD5. Without modification except good tyres in my opinion the D4 is the more capable truck. This will shift when we start modifying as the options for the Defender are far greater then the for the D4. My trucks are both heavily modified and for technical driving the Discovery 2 is more capable and in my opinion the better truck. For tough touring the Defender is the better truck.

[MrLandy]

One thing is for certain. Whether you are driving a Defender or a Discovery, no matter where you are, in the middle of the western desert, halfway a cross the Nullarbor plain, or up a mountain cattlemans track, if you get stuck and there's someone in another Defender or Discovery, you'll get out. You'll also invariably make a friend, because that's what makes us Land Rover people.

[TerryO]

Technology is a interesting thing, it is ever changing and usually improving.

When I used to race motorcycle's in the 80's if you could lean a bike over enough to get your knee down around a corner you were considered pretty much to be on the money.

Now with tyre and computer traction control advances and design advances in chassis and suspension and braking systems if you go to any ride day you will see dozens of fun riders who have never raced at lean angles that back in the 80's and 90's the likes of Rainey, Doohan and Gardner would have only dreamt about on their world championship 500cc GP bikes.

I talk to many of the old school racers from back then and those who have kept a eye on it can't believe how good road bikes are now compared to their old full house race bikes from back then. They often also say that these young riders have no skill and it's all because of technology that they go so fast and that bikes of their era were real race bikes, new ones are just toys that anyone can ride fast and believe it or not I don't often disagree to much with this comment.

Moving to 4wdriving I reckon it's pretty much the same, Defender old school, D3/4 new school. Both very good, both very different yet able to do pretty much the same when it comes to going off road.
Just like with bike racing many of the old school can't accept that the new way of building a 4wd is any good or even better than the old school technology. No matter what some say many things have been compared through out this thread and some the old school technology is still better if the vehicle is being measured as a all rounder and work horse. But there is plenty of things that the new school technology is also better at.

This brings me back to bike racing, when I talk to the old timers who no longer ride they are the most scathing and dismissive of the new technology, though I believe this is based on lgnorance and just living in the past. Yet when I speak with other old timers who still ride they just speak in awe of what new bikes can do and how good they are and often they say things like "how did we ride those things so fast back then" This group of old timers who still ride in general wouldn't dream of swapping back to ride old bikes if given a choice.

I have repeatedly asked the often more vocal and dismissive Defender owners in this discussion if they had ever driven a D3/4 either on road or off and as far as I can remember none have said yes.

So how do you guys know how good or bad the present generation of Disco's are off road or if a Defender is better, sorry more capable, on a given day on a given track on similar sized and spec tyres?

[LandyAndy]

No one in their right mind does that with a transmission handbrake !

What's a transmission handbrake ?
One that a real 4WD utilises. :angel:

Its yet another safety feature we have.The vehicle will emergency stop in a straight line.
Andrew

[Mick_Marsh]

So that's what the oars that came with the car are for. :p

Martin
What, oars come with a D4? After all, it's the one that floats.

[dullbird]

Do you think that the safety feature was implemented because of risk of high blood pressure and cholesterol in D3/4 drivers?

After all sitting around eating all that cheese and drinking coffee getting upset because no one takes a D4 around the world like they do a defenders

Land Rover would have to be worried about those medical risks hence why i guess you get blessed with the features :p ;) :D

[Tombie]

As opposed to the DVT and blood clots forming in the left leg of Defender drivers?

Or potential silicosis from all the dust ingested.

Or the industrial deafness....

[dullbird]

They don't ingest dust because rather than Land Rover providing a safety feature they grew beards.

They don't get DVT because the shake and the vibration keeps muscles active. Beside the left leg gets a work out. Another plus, i dont think there would be a single women out there that wasnt attracted to a defender drivers toned left leg and handsomely tanned right arm ;)

Its my understand the deafness is from the wife not the car.

:p

[rick130]

Or the industrial deafness....

WHAT ?



:D

[Stuart02]

That's why the disco needs the "ridiculous" 19 inch wheels - BIG brakes make the traction control work in a more refined way

Interesting theory!

And no one's even mentioned the factory D4 ediff option which would be within the OP's rules...

[dullbird]

Well not really i would have thought because its an option, an option that you have to pay for so i cant imagine that can be classed as standard.
I think it would be different if they had a specific model of D4 that had the ediff fitted as standard.

[Chops]

They don't ingest dust because rather than Land Rover providing a safety feature they grew beards.

They don't get DVT because the shake and the vibration keeps muscles active. Beside the left leg gets a work out. Another plus, i dont think there would be a single women out there that wasnt attracted to a defender drivers toned left leg and handsomely tanned right arm ;)

Its my understand the deafness is from the wife not the car.

:p

Annnnd just where does this leave the women drivers of Defenders :eek:

[MrLandy]

Yeah, MsLandy can't decide which is my best side! Toned left leg or tanned right arm! "Best of both worlds" she says "...but above all its the troglodyte all over hairyness of all limbs and the facial dust filter she loves the most"! She also says that "the all over scrawny legged-pasty-skinned baldness and lacto intolerance of hermetically sealed Disco drivers just wouldn't do it for her!" Obviously Defenders are the best! :Rolling:

[Celtoid]

No D4?


Yes sorry about that.


Don't know what is going on. I've been having serious issues with AULRO the last few days .... dis-associated posts and constant freezing when trying to type.


Anybody else been having issues?

[Celtoid]

Well not really i would have thought because its an option, an option that you have to pay for so i cant imagine that can be classed as standard.
I think it would be different if they had a specific model of D4 that had the ediff fitted as standard.


From what I've read, the ediff is almost redundant in the newer D4s.

[dullbird]

Annnnd just where does this leave the women drivers of Defenders :eek:


We grow beards too!!!

:D

[DiscoMick]

As opposed to the DVT and blood clots forming in the left leg of Defender drivers?

Or potential silicosis from all the dust ingested.

Or the industrial deafness....

Strangely, my Defender is much better sealed than I expected. The exception was the gap in the rubber seal under the front passenger's door at the front, which let daylight in, but I fixed that by gluing a rubber block in the gap.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Meken]

Well not really i would have thought because its an option, an option that you have to pay for so i cant imagine that can be classed as standard.
I think it would be different if they had a specific model of D4 that had the ediff fitted as standard.


They did & it had a massive V8 in it ;)

[Steve223]

So how do you guys know how good or bad the present generation of Disco's are off road or if a Defender is better, sorry more capable, on a given day on a given track on similar sized and spec tyres?


I have/had both ;-) also quite a few of my Trips have been with Mark and his little modified D4 I have quite a few videos where you can compare both

for example

https://youtu.be/geIT_4lXtD8

https://youtu.be/DmJCidNjHBA

[Steve223]

Ok this is not meant to create friction between the flat earthers over in the Defender section and the Latte set here, so, believe it or not I am asking a serious question.
Why? Well with all this talk of how rear new or late model 110 Defenders (Puma) are and how expensive they have become I went and checked Carpoint and found a 2015 Limited edition 110 second hand for over $90k. The only thing that looked different was the mainly orange paint. But even so other older higher mileage 110's were still in my opinion very expensive for what you get, so are they worth it and are they better off road than a late model similar spec Disco?

My thoughts on this well the only real claim to fame a Defender has is its serious off road ability, but seriously is a late model fairly standard Defender better off road when it gets in to the serious rough stuff than similar modded D3/4?

Now I'm not talking about a twin locked Defender on 35" muddies with a four inch suspension and body lift. I'm trying, if possible, to compare similar modified and spec vehicles.

To make it fair both vehicles need to be similar in spec and the closest to a Disco is a 110. To also keep it fair and comparible they need similar sized and spec tyres so let's say up to the standard OEM Defender size which is just under 32" from memory, but they can both be Muddies plus what ever wheels required to fit those tyres. I have included a couple of other mods that you commonly see added to many 4x4's if you go for a day out bashing the tracks up around Lithgow or I bet most other favourite weekend distinctions.

Front bull bar.

Rock sliders

Snorkel

And that is it, no other mods, yes you can remove things like mud flaps etc put the spare in the back if you want to as this costs nothing.

Sure there are plenty of other bits but this is just about trying to compare their off road ability with them as standard and similar spec as possible. I have put rock sliders in because I'm not talking about actually testing these machines with the least amount of panel damage. Plus compare their value for money now a Defender can cost as much as a new D4.

So given this fairly mild spec which is better bush bashing a Disco or a Defender?


you forgot one very important criteria: drivers knowledge and ability

a Defender will require a better more experience driver to get the same out of the truck then a D4 needs.

In a D4 the driver has far less involvement and decision steps to make...

one of the reasons for me to switch to Defender....

[dullbird]

I haven't watched the videos because I cant, they wont buffer properly, but unless your driving both vehicles in the video you're supplying as an example, then you posting the videos is a bit pointless to be honest because its not really a fair comparison, regardless of which one is performing better

[Steve223]

I haven't watched the videos because I cant, they wont buffer properly, but unless your driving both vehicles in the video you're supplying as an example, then you posting the videos is a bit pointless to be honest because its not really a fair comparison, regardless of which one is performing better


correct it isn't a fair comparison as my Defender is highly modified and Marks D4 isn't however under touring conditions the D4 is highly capable and was not left behind on any of the tracks we drove and that's what the videos shows.

Mark is running AT/ tyres so in mud he has a clear disadvantage over my much bigger muddies.

[Bytemrk]

Steve,

Brilliant videos.... I started to watch them because of this thread..... but got totally lost in the adventure and forgot all about which vehicle is better.

We all know it's not the Ford Maverick :p

Thanks for sharing

[ozscott]

The sand dune climb was interesting...

Cheers

[MrLandy]

Yes thanks Steve, really enjoyed the video. The focus was clearly the slow and steady nature of Defender torque. Defender has OS mud tyres yes (which aren't necessarily better than standard Defender tyres on sand) but there's a clear difference IMO unless you also have diff locks? The D4 required much more speed and momentum, while the Defenders did it more easily, virtually idled up most dunes. I'm sure the disco was quieter and sweet on road/track the rest of the time, but it's clear to me which is the more capable on sand dunes.

[ozscott]

Wait for it....is that a scud missile coming in...

[SimmAus]

Yes thanks Steve, really enjoyed the video. The focus was clearly the slow and steady nature of Defender torque. Defender has OS mud tyres yes (which aren't necessarily better than standard Defender tyres on sand) but there's a clear difference IMO unless you also have diff locks? The D4 required much more speed and momentum, while the Defenders did it more easily, virtually idled up most dunes. I'm sure the disco was quieter and sweet on road/track the rest of the time, but it's clear to me which is the more capable on sand dunes.

As a direct comparison the Defender tyres gave a 50% longer footprint when we measured them.

[MrLandy]

As a direct comparison the Defender tyres gave a 50% longer footprint when we measured them.

It's a clear difference in sand yes. Which is due to sidewall height, not width - and already vastly different between stock Defenders and stock Discos anyway. What were the actual tyre sizes?

[TerryO]

having owned a D3 and still owning a Defender 110 TD5 as well as well as Discovery 2 TD5. Without modification except good tyres in my opinion the D4 is the more capable truck. This will shift when we start modifying as the options for the Defender are far greater then the for the D4. My trucks are both heavily modified and for technical driving the Discovery 2 is more capable and in my opinion the better truck. For tough touring the Defender is the better truck.


Steve is the only person I know who has owned and driven seriously off road a present generation Disco, a Defender and a D2 having owned and used each off road for several years. All of his vehicles were / are modified, the D3 the least though from memory. So if anyone can pass a long term observation about a direct off road capability comparison then I reckon it's him, so his words above are quite telling.

If I remember right his Defender has 35" MUDs and lockers and as has been noted by SimmAus this gave his Defender roughly a 50% larger footprint than the D4, which is a real good thing if you are both charging up soft Sandhills or driving through bog holes.

I noticed with our D3 when I swapped from 245/70/17's to 265/70/17's, both sets of tyres were MUDs, that the off road capability of the D3 greatly improved and that is a relatively small increase in size. That is why For this comparison I put the Defender and Disco's on roughly the same size tyres because size of tyre makes such a big difference. With the same size and spec tyres fitted to both vehicles then what is actually being compared is the vehicles ability not the tyre advantage.
Anyway I think Steve summed it up pretty well above, I will be interesting to see if any of the hardline Defender crew challenge him on his observations.

[ozscott]

Tyres and weight for sand. A distant third is power and torque but obviously if you are heavier you need the extra power and torque l.

Cheers

[MrLandy]

"For tough touring the Defender is the better truck." Agreed.

[1nando]

Someone correct me if im wrong here:

The d4 rides on 29 inch tyres and the puma on 32 inch tyres, its roughly a 10% difference.

There is a weight difference of 25% between the 2 vehicles. So taking these 2 points into consideration

If this is correct then the power (kw/nm) difference is as follows:

D4= 0.06kw per kg 0.208 nm per kg
Puma= 0.05kw per kilo 0.2 nm per kg

The kw difference is roughly 16.6% and the torque difference is 3.85% when these 2 factors are considered.......unless I've worked this out incorrectly.

In my opinion sand dunes require a combonation of power/torque and tyre tread length(footprint). If the above is correct then the advantage goes to the defender due to its longer tread because of its greater tyre size....

Does this sound correct?

[ozscott]

Torque and power certainly help. Model T Fords did very well in sand and swamp with bugger all of either but tall tyres (v narrow) and lack of weight.

Cheers

[Steve223]

Yes thanks Steve, really enjoyed the video. The focus was clearly the slow and steady nature of Defender torque. Defender has OS mud tyres yes (which aren't necessarily better than standard Defender tyres on sand) but there's a clear difference IMO unless you also have diff locks? The D4 required much more speed and momentum, while the Defenders did it more easily, virtually idled up most dunes. I'm sure the disco was quieter and sweet on road/track the rest of the time, but it's clear to me which is the more capable on sand dunes.


yes I have diff locks but they where only used once on big red otherwise everything else was first or second gear high range with centre diff in.

I run 34 1/2" on 16" rims so I can go lower in tyre pressure then Mark and so also have more surface area (did everything but big red on 15PSI) but I also recon with far less electronics kicking in I can keep the truck easier in the rev band I want to have it for dunes

[TerryO]

Someone correct me if im wrong here:

The d4 rides on 29 inch tyres and the puma on 32 inch tyres, its roughly a 10% difference.

There is a weight difference of 25% between the 2 vehicles. So taking these 2 points into consideration

If this is correct then the power (kw/nm) difference is as follows:

D4= 0.06kw per kg 0.208 nm per kg
Puma= 0.05kw per kilo 0.2 nm per kg

The kw difference is roughly 16.6% and the torque difference is 3.85% when these 2 factors are considered.......unless I've worked this out incorrectly.

In my opinion sand dunes require a combonation of power/torque and tyre tread length. If the above is correct then the advantage goes to the defender due to its longer tread because of its greater tyre size....

Does this sound correct?

A D3/4 comes with 30" tyres fitted not 29"

The weight of a five seater 110 according to Redbook is 1972 kg.

KW = 90
Torque = 360 nm

A SDV6 D4 weighs roughly 2440 kg depending on model and options.

KW = 183
Torque = 600 nm

Roughly a seven seater D4 diesel is approximately 19% heavier than a 110 Defender.

A five seater D4 would be, from memory, about 35kg lighter.

According to Redbook a 110 has a Power to weight ratio of 45.6 w/kg
A SDV6 D4 is 75 w/kg

No stats on torque and I have no idea how to work it out.

[Steve223]

in my opinion the main difference between a Defender and D3/4 in regards to a tourer is three fold:

Driving: a Defender is utilitarian, it's a truck not a refined hi tech machine. It requires far more driver input and far more choices need to be made by the driver a style of driving I prefer.

Upgradability: The Defender you can mould in to what you like it to be, you can upgrade nearly every component with off the shelf stuff and make it a tough tourer. This was not possible for the D3 (not sure whether more parts HD are available now)

Repairability: While especially D4's are very reliable cars and even my D3 never let me down except a broken link arm bolt, any elecrtical issues are difficult to fix in the bush and most outback mechanics wont touch a Land Rover. A Defender is simpler and if things go wrong you have a greater chance fixing it in the bush..

[1nando]

in my opinion the main difference between a Defender and D3/4 is tow fold:

Driving: a Defender is utilitarian, it's a truck not a refined hi tech machine. it requires far more driver input and far more choices need to be made by the driver a style of driving I prefer.

upgradability: The Defender you can mould in to what you like it to be, you can upgrade nearly every component with off the shelf stuff and make it a tough tourer. this was not possible for the D3 (not sure whether more parts are available now)

I was saying that for much of this whole thread and i agree 100%

[1nando]

Terry0:

I got those figures off the land rover site for the tdv6.......

[MrLandy]

yes I have diff locks but they where only used once on big red otherwise everything else was first or second gear high range with centre diff in.

I run 34 1/2" on 16" rims so I can go lower in tyre pressure then Mark and so also have more surface area (did everything but big red on 15PSI) but I also recon with far less electronics kicking in I can keep the truck easier in the rev band I want to have it for dunes

Interesting, Cheers. Did you also try 3rd/4th low range at all?

Tyre footprint lengthening is clearly the most important. Less electronics kicking in also makes sense. On sand in my puma I've never had my TC kick in. And low down engine torque in Puma is noticeably better in low range than in my 300tdi. Is yours a 300tdi or Td5?

[Steve223]

Interesting, Cheers. Did you also try 3rd/4th low range at all?



Tyre footprint lengthening is clearly the most important. Less electronics kicking in also makes sense. On sand in my puma I've never had my TC kick in. And low down engine torque in Puma is noticeably better in low range than in my 300tdi. Is yours a 300tdi or Td5?

as this was my first big desert trip the first 3 hours in Simpson I actually tried every possible gear and transfer case combination until I Found what works best for me

yes I did when doing big red the difficult left track I went up in 3 and 2nd low range with both lockers engaged from memory

my one is a TD5 with a VVT

[ozscott]

Great vids Stefan. Is that a German/Austrian accent?

Cheers

[Steve223]

Great vids Stefan. Is that a German/Austrian accent?

Cheers


thanks mate, yes German it is

[ozscott]

My son is in Frankfurt at the moment studying on a German Govt Scholarship. Second time he has been there to study. He is only 16. I will show him the videos. He loves Deefers.

Cheers

[MrLandy]

as this was my first big desert trip the first 3 hours in Simpson I actually tried every possible gear and transfer case combination until I Found what works best for me

yes I did when doing big red the difficult left track I went up in 3 and 2nd low range with both lockers engaged from memory

my one is a TD5 with a VVT

Well done, you made it look easy in your Deefer. Different sands, temps, gradients all need a different combo, it becomes intuitive which gear to select with practice. Steady, right gear and keeping an even speed/torque load, beats the bull-at-a-gate aproach most of the time. Thanks again for the video. Great see all the different approaches each driver / vehicle took.

[Celtoid]

I was saying that for much of this whole thread and i agree 100%


Really? I thought it sounded like you were saying the D4 was only good for picking up the kids from soccer ;).

[1nando]

Really? I thought it sounded like you were saying the D4 was only good for picking up the kids from soccer ;).

Im talking about the defender and how its very similar to a truck.....😉i drive all types of trucks and my defender so i guess im qualified to make that statement.

[LandyAndy]

Hey Terry.
This thread is starting to get a bit flat,time for you to pick a fight with the D2 owners:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

[1nando]

Hey Terry.
This thread is starting to get a bit flat,time for you to pick a fight with the D2 owners:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

Or between the td5 and td4 owners....
Wasn't me

[Tombie]

Or between the td5 and td4 owners....
Wasn't me


What's a TD4 [emoji48]

[Celtoid]

Im talking about the defender and how its very similar to a truck.....��i drive all types of trucks and my defender so i guess im qualified to make that statement.


You might be qualified to make that statement .... but go on .... admit it .... you never realised how capable the D4 Shopping Trolley was until you got involved in this thread.


Actually don't, you'd be banned from the Deefer forums :D.


PS. The D4 drivers already knew the Deefers are a formidable beast .....

[Tombie]

Im talking about the defender and how its very similar to a truck.....[emoji6]i drive all types of trucks and my defender so i guess im qualified to make that statement.


What trucks do you drive? Just curious :)

[rick130]

Or between the td5 and td4 owners....
Wasn't me


You mean those with a real Land Rover engine and the Ford engined ones ? :twisted:


:angel:





[edit] Damn, I can just hear the heavy as sin, tree stump pulling but gearbox destroying Isuzu owners starting to wind up about "the best engine ever installed in any Land Rover, ever...."

[Celtoid]

You mean those with a real Land Rover engine and the Ford engined ones ? :twisted:


:angel:


On that .... what's the future of LR engines ..... aren't they trying to get rid of all legacy remnants moving forward?

[Mick_Marsh]

Damn, I can just hear the heavy as sin, tree stump pulling but gearbox destroying Isuzu owners starting to wind up about "the best engine ever installed in any Land Rover, ever...."
It's great that you recognise that fact.

[Disco Muppet]

You mean those with a real Land Rover engine and the Ford engined ones ? :twisted:


:angel:





[edit] Damn, I can just hear the heavy as sin, tree stump pulling but gearbox destroying Isuzu owners starting to wind up about "the best engine ever installed in any Land Rover, ever...."

You can hear them because they need to speak so loudly to hear themselves...

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

You can hear them because they need to speak so loudly to hear themselves...

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app


:Rolling:


Not that I can laugh suffering industrial deafness from driving a Tdi Deefer for far too long. :D

[LandyAndy]

What's a TD4 [emoji48]

A freeloader???
Andrew

[1nando]

You might be qualified to make that statement .... but go on .... admit it .... you never realised how capable the D4 Shopping Trolley was until you got involved in this thread.


Actually don't, you'd be banned from the Deefer forums :D.


PS. The D4 drivers already knew the Deefers are a formidable beast .....

I have to admit you are correct. Its a new found respect. Have no issues admitting that, give credit where it is due

[1nando]

What trucks do you drive? Just curious :)

Everything from truck and dogs, bogey crane/hiab trucks, tippers. I only drive these when I'm down a driver. I'm the general manager amd most of my time is spent in the office or with clients and suppliers these days. Must admit though i love driving.....

[rick130]

And low down engine torque in Puma is noticeably better in low range than in my 300tdi. Is yours a 300tdi or Td5?

A combination of better gearing with the low gear in the six speed 'box and a VNT turbo makes the difference there.

Interestingly those that drive both the Td5 and Tdi in difficult off road say the Tdi will lug better at very low revs.

[ozscott]

.....

[ozscott]

Hey Terry.
This thread is starting to get a bit flat,time for you to pick a fight with the D2 owners[emoji14][emoji14][emoji14][emoji14][emoji14][emoji14][emoji14]
Andrew
Just don't ask Steve because he might repeat things you dont want to hear about well modified D2's (wasnt me!!!). :)

Cheers

[MrLandy]

A combination of better gearing with the low gear in the six speed 'box and a VNT turbo makes the difference there.

Interestingly those that drive both the Td5 and Tdi in difficult off road say the Tdi will lug better at very low revs.

Cheers Rick. Yes the old Tdi has lugged well over the years, but puma certainly has the edge, although I'm not yet convinced in terms of engine braking downhill in low. Some further comparisons required me thinks.

Only driven a Td5 once so can't compare.

[Celtoid]

I have to admit you are correct. Its a new found respect. Have no issues admitting that, give credit where it is due


Good on you mate, well said.


Cheers,


Kev.

[TerryO]

Just don't ask Steve because he might repeat things you dont want to hear about well modified D2's (wasnt me!!!). :)

Cheers


Nope, we only listen and quote Steve when it comes to him comparing his D3 and to a lesser extent his D2 to a Defender. When it comes to that he has total credibility.

... any other comparison with his D2 which might undermine our beloved D3's and 4's would be totally ignored as the rantings of a crazy man and hold zero credibility. ... ;)

...:p

[PAT303]

Wrong! Just about all of the pictures of rolled Defenders shows it happening on public roads, these tough vehicles apart from having, not so strong chassis, are basically unstable. They have no stability control or decent braking systems, so when the drivers get in a sticky situation they can more easily lose control and roll their vehicles or end up driving head on into other vehicles or immovable objects. I guess that is when the built in crumple zones and airbags protect the Defender occupants from serious injury or worse.

Bugger! That's right they don't have airbags or built in crumple zones or stability control or good brakes, or reinforced roofs that don't just fold flat if rolled.

But that's ok, because the original comparison does not mention vehicle safety standards or poo carrying capability or strength and reliability of drive trains including diff's, gearboxes, clutches, drive shafts, cv's and or chassis strength and durability, it only attempted to compare in a sensible balanced discussion the off road prowess if both vehicles have similar sized and spec tyres.

So how are we going with the original comparison?

I'll bite,Terry your totally wrong.The defender is very stable,something I proved with my own vehicle when I did a defensive driving course,my TDCi out braked,out turned and basically out did all the other 4wds.If you look at vehicles like the Prado,Hilux,Triton as examples they cannot do the swerve around the witches hats test because they'll fall over,my TDCi did it easy,it also stopped a car length shorter than the next best vehicle,3 lengths shorter than a troopy and the defender does has crumple zones,look at the chassis,the ends are weaker than the middle cab section,that is called a fold point,an engineered energy absorption area for front or rear impacts,also don't confuse a crumpled body as being weak,the defender doesn't crumple any worse than most other vehicles because they are designed to,that crumpling uses energy as well as momentum,momentum is a very important energy to disperse in the case of a roll over. Pat

[PAT303]

And I'll add I drove my L322,a mates 200 series,another mates Rubicon,a 200Tdi D1 and my Tdi and TDCi defender through a very tough motor cross track built into a waddi,the L322 cruised through,the TDCi struggled through riding the T/C,the Tdi stopped when it lifted it's wheels,the 200 did a beached whale impersonation and the Rubicon just had me laughing at how bad it was.The winner,the worn out '92 D1,that thing just walked it like is was a sunday drive,no T/C,no lockers no nothing,like a sunday drive it was. Pat

[Marty110]

although I'm not yet convinced in terms of engine braking downhill in low. Some further comparisons required me thinks.
as said the extra low first gear in the 6 speed Puma box makes all the difference off road and towing too compared to the Tdi and TD5 (and most other 4WD's). My Puma 110 is the first 4WD in 40years that I've owned that I have not had to at least 'feather' the brakes on insane downhill slopes - just sit in with foot off the brake and no run away at all. this was in the High Country, cant remember the track name. So all you have to do is sit there and pick your line down hill

[TerryO]

I'll bite,Terry your totally wrong.The defender is very stable,something I proved with my own vehicle when I did a defensive driving course,my TDCi out braked,out turned and basically out did all the other 4wds.If you look at vehicles like the Prado,Hilux,Triton as examples they cannot do the swerve around the witches hats test because they'll fall over,my TDCi did it easy,it also stopped a car length shorter than the next best vehicle,3 lengths shorter than a troopy and the defender does has crumple zones,look at the chassis,the ends are weaker than the middle cab section,that is called a fold point,an engineered energy absorption area for front or rear impacts,also don't confuse a crumpled body as being weak,the defender doesn't crumple any worse than most other vehicles because they are designed to,that crumpling uses energy as well as momentum,momentum is a very important energy to disperse in the case of a roll over. Pat

Thank you for your post Pat, a measurement of stability I guess in this instance is a relative thing. Yes a Defender more than likely is more stable than a Prado, Hilux, Triton etc. But compared to many other 4x4's like a D4 I bet it is not very stable at all.

The sad thing in all of this for Defender owners and occupants is even if a Defender is more stable than a Prado, Hilux or Triton at least they have reasonable passenger cabin structural strength and their roofs just don't fold flat if rolled. I might be wrong but I can't remember ever seeing either internal or external steel roll cages for any other recently built 4x4 other than big shiny alloy ones that are all show. What does that say about the strength of a Defenders roof and cabin?

I guess the question Defender owners should ask themselves in this discussion is would you rather be in a Defender or a D4 in a roll over? I have always considered a Defender as a very capable purpose built iconic vehicle, but I do think this is one thing LR should have improved in their build standards over the decades.

[Meken]

as said the extra low first gear in the 6 speed Puma box makes all the difference off road and towing too compared to the Tdi and TD5 (and most other 4WD's). My Puma 110 is the first 4WD in 40years that I've owned that I have not had to at least 'feather' the brakes on insane downhill slopes - just sit in with foot off the brake and no run away at all. this was in the High Country, cant remember the track name. So all you have to do is sit there and pick your line down hill


I press the hill descent button.... Take my foot of the brake and pick my line - all at the insane speed of 1 1/2 km/hr

[rick130]

I'll bite,Terry your totally wrong.The defender is very stable,something I proved with my own vehicle when I did a defensive driving course,my TDCi out braked,out turned and basically out did all the other 4wds.If you look at vehicles like the Prado,Hilux,Triton as examples they cannot do the swerve around the witches hats test because they'll fall over,my TDCi did it easy,it also stopped a car length shorter than the next best vehicle,3 lengths shorter than a troopy and the defender does has crumple zones,look at the chassis,the ends are weaker than the middle cab section,that is called a fold point,an engineered energy absorption area for front or rear impacts,also don't confuse a crumpled body as being weak,the defender doesn't crumple any worse than most other vehicles because they are designed to,that crumpling uses energy as well as momentum,momentum is a very important energy to disperse in the case of a roll over. Pat


And following on from that, I've had a loaded front tyre failure at 100km/h+ on a bend sign posted at 75km/h and the car didn't deviate from it's course although I had the tyre roll off the rim.

Not bad for an 'unstable' vehicle.

Keep trying Terry. :D

[Marty110]

I press the hill descent button.... Take my foot of the brake and pick my line - all at the insane speed of 1 1/2 km/hr
yes, I do the same in my RRS, I was just referencing the comment about Puma's engine braking compared to previous Defender models :)

[ozscott]

TerryO you had chuckling this morning - cheers.

The D1 in stock form is a deceptive weapon. That A Frame rear and ultra soff long travel suspension, light alloy body, low COG, rellatively short wheelbase and short overhang is a terrific combination.

Cheers

[PAT303]

The RRC/D1 chassis is like a rabbit,the further you throw it into the blackberry bushes the better it looks,the best ever 4wd chassis in my honest opinion,it's simply outstanding at everything. Pat

[AndyG]

Not having driven one, a D4, i will have to accept the common wisdom the D4 is a hugely technically capable vehicle, especially if you dont have any friends or cargo for more than a week away from civilization.

What it will never have when off roading is the Je Nous Se Qua that the Defender have in its delivery of an off road experience.

How many times does a Defer trundle, waddle, ( i cant say power) down a track or beach and every head turns, and often a nod of approval, (or disbelief)

I can imagine HRH, James Bond or myself :p in a Defender or Range Rover, but a half breed mongrel compromise :wasntme: I don't think so.

Let's pick up this conversation in 2050 and see if the Discovery lasts thetest of time and is still being made.

[PAT303]

as said the extra low first gear in the 6 speed Puma box makes all the difference off road and towing too compared to the Tdi and TD5 (and most other 4WD's). My Puma 110 is the first 4WD in 40years that I've owned that I have not had to at least 'feather' the brakes on insane downhill slopes - just sit in with foot off the brake and no run away at all. this was in the High Country, cant remember the track name. So all you have to do is sit there and pick your line down hill

Even the LC with all it's power needs the clutch ridden to get off the mark,it's a shame they didn't make it into the vehicle it could have been. Pat

[tact]

as said the extra low first gear in the 6 speed Puma box makes all the difference off road and towing too compared to the Tdi and TD5 (and most other 4WD's). My Puma 110 is the first 4WD in 40years that I've owned that I have not had to at least 'feather' the brakes on insane downhill slopes - just sit in with foot off the brake and no run away at all. this was in the High Country, cant remember the track name. So all you have to do is sit there and pick your line down hill

Totally agree with you concerning the TDCi low first gear ratio being excellent for feet-off approaches to the steepest downhills. Additional comments:
- this is why the idle-jack feature exists, without the idle revs being jacked up a few hundred RPM (low range 1st gear only) it was deemed by LR wheel speed was too slow! For safe descents

- I get to tackle those same insane steep descents on wet slippery clay at times in the Malaysian jungle. Very different to Oz's dry sclerophyll forests.

Here is a scenario that novices get into real trouble, not realizing that at times when you start sliding while feet off you need to (counter intuitively) accelerate to get wheels turning closer to ground speed and then back off gently hoping to bring speeds back down gradually.

The TDCi is excellent at this. The throttle curves in the ECU allow you to just blip the throttle and it handles the very gradual reduction back to idle revs for you.

[scarry]

Thank you for your post Pat, a measurement of stability I guess in this instance is a relative thing. Yes a Defender more than likely is more stable than a Prado, Hilux, Triton etc. But compared to many other 4x4's like a D4 I bet it is not very stable at all.

The sad thing in all of this for Defender owners and occupants is even if a Defender is more stable than a Prado, Hilux or Triton at least they have reasonable passenger cabin structural strength and their roofs just don't fold flat if rolled. I might be wrong but I can't remember ever seeing either internal or external steel roll cages for any other recently built 4x4 other than big shiny alloy ones that are all show. What does that say about the strength of a Defenders roof and cabin?

I guess the question Defender owners should ask themselves in this discussion is would you rather be in a Defender or a D4 in a roll over? I have always considered a Defender as a very capable purpose built iconic vehicle, but I do think this is one thing LR should have improved in their build standards over the decades.

Couldn't have agreed more

Have to agree as well,the D4 handles and brakes much better than a Puma,as would be expected.
The Puma does handle pretty well though,and i am not surprised as Pat has said it out handles the others in his post.I got out of my D2 once and drove one of my brothers Prado and it felt like it was going to tip over on every corner.

The Puma well and truly out handles both a mates patrol ute,and my Hiace work van that i drive everyday.In fact it puts the van to shame.:(but it does have less wheel travel than a lawn mower..

The actual ride in a stock 110 Puma is pretty good as well,the suspension is good.A 40mm lift does give it more,as does the BAS chip;)

But the van,loaded, will out brake a Puma all day,as will the D4,even though both are much heavier.

I thought i read on here somewhere latest Defenders had stability control?

FWIW,and IMHO,you can't really compare a Puma with a D3/4,they are completely different vehicles built for different markets,the only thing common is the badge on the front.

[1nando]

[/COLOR]

Couldn't have agreed more

Have to agree as well,the D4 handles and brakes much better than a Puma,as would be expected.
The Puma does handle pretty well though,and i am not surprised as Pat has said it out handles the others in his post.I got out of my D2 once and drove one of my brothers Prado and it felt like it was going to tip over on every corner.

The Puma well and truly out handles both a mates patrol ute,and my Hiace work van that i drive everyday.In fact it puts the van to shame.:(

The actual ride in a stock 110 Puma is pretty good as well,the suspension is good.A 40mm lift does give it more,as does the BAS chip;)

But the van,loaded, will out brake a Puma all day,as will the D4,even though both are much heavier.

I thought i read on here somewhere latest Defenders had stability control?


Hi Scarry,

You mention a 40mm lift. Did you have to use a double cardan front prop shaft? Did the lift remain at 40mm or has it settled at a little lower than that?