Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

[Disco-tastic]

Hehe...its going to 100 pages! !

Fun isnt it :bangin::Rolling::twobeers::BigThumb::p

Cheers

Dan

[Meken]

So old mate you think a Defender has better approach and departure angles and late model Disco's can't fit big tyres do you?



Check this out and weep!


Oh man - the live axles are in full view .... You just stopped the rotation of the earth for a second!

Run for the hills the deefer drivers are going to stampede this post!

[LandyAndy]

Test mule for the new defender???? They just havent worked out how to strap a beer can body to it yet?????
Andrew

[jon3950]

The whole monocoque chassis thing being stronger is a load of BS!

yes i am going to refer to trucks here;

Things built to lug heavy loads day in and day out use ladder frame chassis not monocoque chassis. There is also a reason trucks have live axels

Yes - cost vs unsprung weight.

Its much cheaper to build a live axle set up than independant suspension. In a light vehicle the unsprung weight of a live axle is significant and buggers up the vehicle dynamics, which is important in a vehicle that is meant to be appealing to drive.

In a heavy truck the unsprung weight of a live axle is less significant and so has less of an impact on vehicle dynamics. Also, handling in a truck is not really very important, but load carrying is.

A live axle can carry a heavy load more economically, but this doesn't mean an independant system can't be engineered to do it as well. It just comes at a cost.

I guess if you want to use trucks as an example, what about air springs?

So much of this argument is just about old technology vs new technology. They both do the job, just differently.

Cheers,
Jon

[1nando]

Yes - cost vs unsprung weight.

Its much cheaper to build a live axle set up than independant suspension. In a light vehicle the unsprung weight of a live axle is significant and buggers up the vehicle dynamics, which is important in a vehicle that is meant to be appealing to drive.

In a heavy truck the unsprung weight of a live axle is less significant and so has less of an impact on vehicle dynamics. Also, handling in a truck is not really very important, but load carrying is.

A live axle can carry a heavy load more economically, but this doesn't mean an independant system can't be engineered to do it as well. It just comes at a cost.

I guess if you want to use trucks as an example, what about air springs?

So much of this argument is just about old technology vs new technology. They both do the job, just differently.

Cheers,
Jon

Love the bit about "handling in a truck is not very important". Yeah mate spot on. ...with 38 ton on board i cant imagine why i would want the thing to handle......**** i just hold on and press the accelorater.

Ladder frame chassis are suppose to be strong but also allow for a tiny amount of flexibility/movement. Could you imagine a monocoque chassis on a 11.5m long bogey? It would start to develop fracture cracks pretty quick on the chassis

[Celtoid]

Fact: puma weighs 1/2 ton less carrys 1/4 ton more
Fact; puma roof can carry 150kg, d4 only half that
Fact: puma has better body clearance.
Fact: puma has better angles of approach,exit, traversing etc
Fact: puma has the rear wheel located in a more appropriate location when off road. Its not under the car like a giant tampon
Fact: puma has and fits bigger tyres if required
Fact: pumas chassis has lasted the test of time. Its robust and bloody strong and thats why miliatry forces around the world have embraced this vehicle as a machine of war. Everything from ambulances to assault vehicles

Hows that for BS?


Im not disputing the d4s strength but rather trying to highlight that the defender is tried and tested. You blokes make it sound like they are made of cheese.

The disco is the model that falls between the defender and the range rover. Its the vehicle that settles on the middle ground, the defender is the workhorse and has always been (quoted from land rover themselves) LRs toughest vehicle!


I'm not going to waste my time on the rest, they have been well addressed over and over again .... but these are new.


Fully loaded a 130 is legally allowed to weight just more than a 1/4 ton over a fully loaded D4. A 110 fully loaded can only weight 3,050KG, which is around 200kg less than a fully loaded D4. I can't remember the number for the 90 ... it's easy to find though ... took me a few minutes for the other figures .... but it's even less than the 110. So you are talking about the 130 only. You say you know trucks and loads .... so I'm surprised that you keep throwing up **** like this. Why can a 130 carry so much more yet only weigh a couple of hundred KG more than a fully loaded D4? Mate, give it a seconds thought. It's BECAUSE the 130 has so much less in it ... like stuff that will save your life, etc that it can carry more load. It's a swings and roundabout scenario but you could easily dump a lot of stuff out of a D4 that wouldn't compromise it's safety and handling and it could carry shed loads more. 110 and 90 wouldn't even be in the mix. But once again ..... a D4 wasn't designed to do this .... that will be the new Deefer's job.


So where did you get the stats on the D4 Roof Rack? ..... my comment about a specific LR product? Nice try but no cigar! The genuine Expedition Rack is rated low. I have a non genuine full length rack for my D4 that is rated at 250KGs static. However, only a retard would put that much weight up there. If a D4 with EAS (active suspension), and a wide track feels ugly with a lot of weight on top I can only imagine how bad and how unsafe a narrower track, standard coil car would be! Oh FYI, good luck trying to get the REAL roof rating out of LR for any car. Weight on top of a roof compromises the car's strength should it roll .... I know what car I'd rather be in if that happened. Oh, you're saying a Deefer has a stronger roof than a D4 .... LMAO ....


And ..... please read and retain .... nobody on this thread has said the Deefer is weak .... other than Deefer owners talking about certain parts that break! ;)


Oh one addition .... there are quite a few differences in a Military Spec Deefer compared to the standard one ..... have a search. Differences were at factory level, not easy add ons later ....

[Marty110]

Oh one addition .... there are quite a few differences in a Military Spec Deefer compared to the standard one ..... have a search. Differences were at factory level, not easy add ons later ....
quite right, the original army Deefers then went strait from the factory to be further modified for the Aus army before shipping then were further modified in Aus with such as a solid cross and needle roller bearings in the centre diff....... they were close to a $100k car by the time the army got them. I was informed of this by a LR mechanic who should know his stuff - and he owned one of the first Deefer command wagons the army let go

[jon3950]

Love the bit about "handling in a truck is not very important". Yeah mate spot on. ...with 38 ton on board i cant imagine why i would want the thing to handle......**** i just hold on and press the accelorater.


That's not what I'm saying. Its about relative importance. You buy a truck to move as much possible as cheaply as possible. The reasons for buying a car are generally more complex.


Ladder frame chassis are suppose to be strong but also allow for a tiny amount of flexibility/movement. Could you imagine a monocoque chassis on a 11.5m long bogey? It would start to develop fracture cracks pretty quick on the chassis

Ladder frame chassis allow a lot of flexibility as its more difficult to build torsional rigidity into a flat structure. This is exactly what you don't need if handling is your main priority. A monocoque structure could be designed to provide the same characteristics but that would be a bit pointless as it would be far more expensive.

My point is its more about cost than anything else. A ladder frame is a more cost-effective way of doing the job than a monocoque, when your priority is load carrying rather than vehicle dynamics.


Cheers,
Jon

[AndyG]

discotastique

Maybe you can explain the other thread re D4 breaking CV's when reversing in sand :D:D

[1nando]

http://www.l2sfbc.com/rmp/blog/discovery4-or-defender-land-rover-which-to-buy

Just read this....this sounds like what ive been saying in this whole thread. These are facts with some subjective opinions and keep in mind the OPs comparison which is better off road

[Redback]

One more thing you may not know, while the Defender can carry 1/4 ton more solo, it can't when towing, the D4 is the only vehicle that can carry be loaded to it's max GVM and still tow 3500KG legally:)

I'm pretty sure the max load limit for the roof on the D4 is 75kg.

Might go check that though, be back soon, so it's 75kg, that figure of 54.3kg was for the roof rack, not the roof of the D4.

[AndyG]

Um 3500 kg 110 Defender was a factory option, still kicking myself for not ordering it.

[Disco-tastic]

discotastique

Maybe you can explain the other thread re D4 breaking CV's when reversing in sand :D:D

Easy: reversing with full steering lock is a weakness for any CV :D:D

Everyones heard that before. Not many have heard of traction control blowing up a diff!

Cheers

Dan

Ps. Love the french twist on my name :p

[Redback]

Um 3500 kg 110 Defender was a factory option, still kicking myself for not ordering it.

It may be able to tow 3500kg, but not fully loaded, only with a driver and full tank of fuel, soon as you start adding any more weight, it takes away your towing capacity, the D4 is different, you can still add weight, without lowering your towing capacity.

[1nando]

Also guys make sure you click "here" on that link i posted. It tested every single LR vehicle and guess which one ended up 1st. The reasons are explained and the problem most of you d4 guys have is understanding what is required "off road". Great read.

The d4 is superior to the defender in everything except offroad capability and "bushability", its better at everything else becuase its designed as the middle ground between the range rover and the defender. The defender is designed as LRs "toughest" vehicle for a reason.

[Disco-tastic]

Also guys make sure you click "here" on that link i posted. It tested every single LR vehicle and guess which one ended up 1st. The reasons are explained and the problem most of you d4 guys have is understanding what is required "off road". Great read.

The d4 is superior to the defender in everything except offroad capability and "bushability", its better at everything else becuase its designed as the middle ground between the range rover and the defender. The defender is designed as LRs "toughest" vehicle for a reason.

Its funny you mention that link. At the end of that pdf there is a little box with "the ultimate" as a heading. In there he says that his ultimate off road car would be a RRS with the SCV8 with 32" tyres on 17" rims and slightly lifted suspension. So power, tyres and lift. The first two are easily rectified anyway. The last you can get airbag spacers.

Id still like to see a drive day with d4 vs defender on stock trim!

Cheers

Dan

[Aaron40]

After having a read of this thread, I was wondering if waving protocol between family of the same genus but not the same species has now been amended....:(

[LandyAndy]

Also guys make sure you click "here" on that link i posted. It tested every single LR vehicle and guess which one ended up 1st. The reasons are explained and the problem most of you d4 guys have is understanding what is required "off road". Great read.

The d4 is superior to the defender in everything except offroad capability and "bushability", its better at everything else becuase its designed as the middle ground between the range rover and the defender. The defender is designed as LRs "toughest" vehicle for a reason.

Seeing you have troubles with electronics and jump starting you need to learn how to push start trucks with LRs "toughest" vehicle;););););););)
Andrew

[scarry]

Maybe a few of you guys missed this earlier post??;)

And this is written by someone who is very well qualified in this subject,not just an armchair warrior:D:D




The T5 Disco 3 / 4 and RRS have the strongest chassis LR have ever built. The strongest CV joints. And the strongest axles. People often confuse "ruggedness" with "reliability", and "reliability" with "enough knowledge to repair".

From new, I took my D3 through tracks far worse than any shown here (LandAndy can attest to that). Pinstriping was never a hindrance. Neither the occasional dent. As I used to say - if I wasn't going to use it, I'd buy a Jaguar. Same went for the L320 Sport - which won the W4 Challenge 2014 and was runner-up 2015 (to a Range Rover) ahead of a plethora of modified Deefers. Same goes for our D4, and now our L494 Sport.

If you're willing to use it the way it was meant, a D4 will run rings around a Defender off-road. "Are you willing" is really the issue. And if you're of the opinion a Defender is better in sand, then you're either not preparing correctly, or your approach to off-road driving needs to be modified (this would be a great time to plug my 2-day sand course for Terrain Response vehicles, but I'll show restraint and put it in a more appropriate thread).

A 110 Defender is cheaper, easier for the traditional mechanic to repair, and easier to load up and clean out. But it's not a better off-roader.

Cheers

Gordon

So Terry,thats your answer.


All fun and games:D:D

[Celtoid]

Maybe a few of you guys missed this earlier post??;)

And this is written by someone who is very well qualified in this subject,not just an armchair warrior:D:D





So Terry,thats your answer.


All fun and games:D:D


Wasn't the W4 Challenge a race to the local European Deli and Cafe?? ;)

[Celtoid]

Also guys make sure you click "here" on that link i posted. It tested every single LR vehicle and guess which one ended up 1st. The reasons are explained and the problem most of you d4 guys have is understanding what is required "off road". Great read.

The d4 is superior to the defender in everything except offroad capability and "bushability", its better at everything else becuase its designed as the middle ground between the range rover and the defender. The defender is designed as LRs "toughest" vehicle for a reason.


It's a bit of a mixed bag of comments, some directly contradicting each other and directly contradicting the two 'qualified drivers' 'opinions'...... which is funny, cause it's the same guy ... LOL!!!


When the first one starts with, you have to wonder -


One big advantage over the Defender over the D4 is load carrying ability. That Defender 110 can carry 1000kg. The D4 is around 750kg, which is a lot less. Then there's the cargo area in the rear, which in the D4 is impressive, but not next to the Defender which is bigger again. Then there's the fuel economy - out in the rough, heavily loaded, the D4 isn't going to touch the Defender for fuel usage. In fact, I've said before and I'll say again, there's nothing on the market that can carry as much load as well over rough terrain using as little fuel as a Defender. The D4 certainly can't.


A 110 cannot exceed 3,050kg total all up weight. A D4 cannot exceed 3,240kg. So far so good, the D4 is heavier to start with. What does a 90 carry? What he fails to mention is the fact that this only applies to the complete Deefer range, if they aren't towing. That may or may not matter to some folks but it's a bit of selective reporting.


The fuel usage claim contradicts even LRs numbers.


As for his TC comments, etc ..... instant credibility fail there too. What he has effectively said is "if you don't do the fundamentals and set your D4 up for the conditions, all your electronics won't help you". But he was making this comment in direct relation to the D4's weight ..... which is over 200KG lighter than a fully loaded 130 and less than 200kg heavier than a 110 full loaded. Make your mind up journo man!.... LOL!!!


As for the other "here" analogy about the closeness of the comparison being not that close at all (I'm paraphrasing) ... well he's just lost instant credibility there as well.


Very mixed bag with questionable credibility in some areas and also very good stuff in other areas.

[ozscott]

I have stopped laughing now....its stale. It really is each to their own in the main. And who cares really.

Cheers

[LandyAndy]

Also guys make sure you click "here" on that link i posted. It tested every single LR vehicle and guess which one ended up 1st. The reasons are explained and the problem most of you d4 guys have is understanding what is required "off road". Great read.

The d4 is superior to the defender in everything except offroad capability and "bushability", its better at everything else becuase its designed as the middle ground between the range rover and the defender. The defender is designed as LRs "toughest" vehicle for a reason.

"First time poster. Recently bought 2012 110 wagon for work. Had rangies for years and never a problem. Defender has had immobilizer issue, output shaft let go at 42000k, now blown turbo/intercooler hose at 45000k. Limp home mode! Are things like this going to keep happening, losing faith in my favourite marque of vehicle. In fairness land rover did cover the gearbox even though technically it was just out of warranty.
Thanks.
Michael."

Andrew

[TerryO]

I have stopped laughing now....its stale. It really is each to their own in the main. And who cares really.

Cheers

If I remember right you said something similar about 500 posts ago. ... ;)

[ozscott]

Probably Terry. I cant recall. It's all a blur. You could say "why keep looking at it" but Tapatalk keeps alerting me to new posts and besides its like watching a train wreck.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

I have stopped laughing now....its stale. It really is each to their own in the main. And who cares really.

Cheers


Yeah, we've hit my oft mentioned millennium posts .... let's park it :D.

[Redback]

It's a bit of a mixed bag of comments, some directly contradicting each other and directly contradicting the two 'qualified drivers' 'opinions'...... which is funny, cause it's the same guy ... LOL!!!


When the first one starts with, you have to wonder -


One big advantage over the Defender over the D4 is load carrying ability. That Defender 110 can carry 1000kg. The D4 is around 750kg, which is a lot less. Then there's the cargo area in the rear, which in the D4 is impressive, but not next to the Defender which is bigger again. Then there's the fuel economy - out in the rough, heavily loaded, the D4 isn't going to touch the Defender for fuel usage. In fact, I've said before and I'll say again, there's nothing on the market that can carry as much load as well over rough terrain using as little fuel as a Defender. The D4 certainly can't.


A 110 cannot exceed 3,050kg total all up weight. A D4 cannot exceed 3,240kg. So far so good, the D4 is heavier to start with. What does a 90 carry? What he fails to mention is the fact that this only applies to the complete Deefer range, if they aren't towing. That may or may not matter to some folks but it's a bit of selective reporting.


The fuel usage claim contradicts even LRs numbers.


As for his TC comments, etc ..... instant credibility fail there too. What he has effectively said is "if you don't do the fundamentals and set your D4 up for the conditions, all your electronics won't help you". But he was making this comment in direct relation to the D4's weight ..... which is over 200KG lighter than a fully loaded 130 and less than 200kg heavier than a 110 full loaded. Make your mind up journo man!.... LOL!!!


As for the other "here" analogy about the closeness of the comparison being not that close at all (I'm paraphrasing) ... well he's just lost instant credibility there as well.


Very mixed bag with questionable credibility in some areas and also very good stuff in other areas.





I'll just throw that extra 250kg in the trailer, nah buggar it, I'll throw an extra 500kg in there for good measure:p

[Marty110]

Then there's the fuel economy - out in the rough, heavily loaded, the D4 isn't going to touch the Defender for fuel usage. In fact, I've said before and I'll say again, there's nothing on the market that can carry as much load as well over rough terrain using as little fuel as a Defender. The D4 certainly can't.

I cant believe this is still going and that I'm commenting again! Having owned 2 Deefers, including the Puma engined one that was the basis of this comparo, over a combined 12yr timeframe, and now a RRS all I can say is that my RRS uses less fuel under ALL conditions than my Puma regardless of payload, including towing. And this while doing it with more power, comfort, safety and driving pleasure. I drive it harder too cos I can! However, I do miss my Deefers tho'

[Disco Muppet]

D3/D4/RRS is crap
Defender is crap
V8 tojo Ute is where its at :cool: :tease: :p :angel:

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Marty110]

D3/D4/RRS is crap
Defender is crap
V8 tojo Ute is where its at :cool: :tease: :p :angel:

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app
you are absolutely right Muppet. In fact all modern 4x4's are crap. So make a commitment to a brand and model you like, learn how to drive it and accept that there are some things it will excel at and others - epic fail! And - be prepared to pay to modify and maintain them - cos they're all crap.... Thanks Muppet for giving some perspective

[Celtoid]

I cant believe this is still going and that I'm commenting again! Having owned 2 Deefers, including the Puma engined one that was the basis of this comparo, over a combined 12yr timeframe, and now a RRS all I can say is that my RRS uses less fuel under ALL conditions than my Puma regardless of payload, including towing. And this while doing it with more power, comfort, safety and driving pleasure. I drive it harder too cos I can! However, I do miss my Deefers tho'


Hang on mate .... I didn't say that ... that was cut and pasted from the article. I was refuting it .... LOL!!!


Watch your editing ...... you made it look like that was my statement :D

[Disco Muppet]

The tojo V8s are crap :p
But they tow well, sound nice if you rev them and I like driving anything I don't pay for :D
But my td5 disco is the best car in the world as far as I'm concerned, although one day a D4 may keep it company :)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Marty110]

Hang on mate .... I didn't say that ... that was cut and pasted from the article. I was refuting it .... LOL!!!


Watch your editing ...... you made it look like that was my statement :D
apologies Celtoid, i should have looked for the original

[Meken]

Who needs diff locks anyway ( just a waste of weight)
https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B045GH8MqEi7Of;D2CC6403-A923-4217-A0F4-51718A2DC046

[Celtoid]

apologies Celtoid, i should have looked for the original





All good.


Cheers.

[PAT303]

I drove down to the beach today in my defender,when I returned it hadn't been broken into,got to be happy with that. :angel:. Pat

[AndyG]

I cant believe this is still going and that I'm commenting again! Having owned 2 Deefers, including the Puma engined one that was the basis of this comparo, over a combined 12yr timeframe, and now a RRS all I can say is that my RRS uses less fuel under ALL conditions than my Puma regardless of payload, including towing. And this while doing it with more power, comfort, safety and driving pleasure. I drive it harder too cos I can! However, I do miss my Deefers tho'

Why do u miss the Defender, this is not a provocative question

[LandyAndy]

Why do u miss the Defender, this is not a provocative question


Simple.When he gets home he now has to listen to the wife nagging.After a drive in the Defender his hears were still ringing which dulled the pain and blotted out what she was saying:):):):).
There you go a plus for a Deefer:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew

[AndyG]

U ask a civil question :(
And a moderator no less wants to spray ****:mad:
No wonder emotions get high

[LandyAndy]

U ask a civil question :(
And a moderator no less wants to spray ****:mad:
No wonder emotions get high

Settle pettel,its in the spirit of the thread.
Andrew

[MR LR]

I'm on Andrew's side for a change :p :wasntme: :D :angel:

[AndyG]

I'm not, I ask a simple question, and get an irrelevant response

[LandyAndy]

I'm on Andrew's side for a change :p :wasntme: :D :angel:

Well there you go,Landy Karma in action.There was a thread we were discussing in the moderators area the other week where I said I never thought I would be thanking Will.The big wheel turns:):):):):):):):):)
Andrew

[p38arover]

Don't believe him, Andrew, it's a plot to catch you unawares! :angel:

[LandyAndy]

Time will tell Ronald:D:D:D:D:D
Andrew

[DazzaTD5]

Ohhh how I have soooo held my tongue and just watched as the thread gets bigger and bigger..... I do believe it will continue to grow until it engulfs the known universe.

I've only read the odd random comment and know I really should not put in my 2 cents worth, because thats all it will be and will mostly fall on deaf or stubborn ears. You all own Land Rover products, cant you all just kiss and make up?

As a repairer I could easily hammer out the faults of a D3, D4, Defender TDCi in a big scroll that no doubt would be vigorously defended by all owners.

Every Land Rover I have ever owned, I've ended up in some deep **** place which was mostly always due to my own stupidity. Every time the "Land Rover" has pulled me through even if just by the skin of my arse...

You are all better of walking, its healthy, environmentally friendly and very economical and all the bleeding hearts, tree huggers, alternative lifestyle people will love you for it. :p:p:p

Regards
Daz

[Bytemrk]

:mad::mad: Don't you have a workshop someplace to go to DazzaTD5....









:p

[wombathole]

Discovery 4 vs Defender | L2SFBC (http://www.l2sfbc.com/rmp/blog/discovery4-or-defender-land-rover-which-to-buy)

Just read this....this sounds like what ive been saying in this whole thread. These are facts with some subjective opinions and keep in mind the OPs comparison which is better off road

I used to drive a 2000 Defender td5 xtreme, and did multiple Simpson desert crossings in it as well as a lot of high country trips. I now drive a d4 3.0.

I agree with this article, especially the bottom. I called my defender "the pig", because it was a pig in the bush, but also a pig in the city and on the highway. In the bush, it was tough, capable, flexible and loved it. But in the city and getting to the bush on any highway it was loud, uncomfortable and no where as nice as the d4. In the bush, I used to search and search for things to challenge the defender, nearly all tracks were easy. It became quite boring. The most fun was pulling out my mates who would always get stuck. The d4 is not as capable in the super rough stuff imo, but remarkably close. Totally different driving style and mechanisms to 4wd, but equally as enjoyable from behind the wheel. And living with the d4 for the other 99.9% of the time is a total joy compared to my much loved pig.

But I really miss the wave and I stare at every defender I see and fondly recall the places and fun I had in mine.

Andy

[Celtoid]

I'm not, I ask a simple question, and get an irrelevant response


Andy, you know they are just having a laugh. You also know why people love driving and have fond memories of driving Deefers that they have previously owned.


Way back when I was a pup in the ADF I drove (not as a profession but because it was a requirement) Acco/Internationals and Unimog 4WD trucks. Then Hinos later. I also drove a squillion Deefers, some old Series and a fair few Toyos. Don't remember much about the Toyos but have vivid memories (not all good) of driving the others and where they took me.


However, I also have some pretty vivid memories of driving (including the couple of D4s that I've owned) and flying more refined machines (actually I've flown in and flown some pretty old bangers too :-)).

So each to their own and certain machines will make and leave their mark. They don't necessarily have to have 'less refined characteristics' for that to happen.


Cheers.

[TerryO]

I don't understand the argument that solid axles are better than independent, look at the Pinzgauer for example. Mind apparently they have a tendency to fall on their side.

.

Neither do I Andy, there are a number of very capable 4x4's that have independent suspension and run rings around live axle 4x4's.

The picture below shows one of them that has all round independent suspension and comes with 35's standard and makes every Land Rover ever made look like soft roaders, Defenders included.

There is a video somewhere on Aulro from several years ago of some Aulro members in their various Landy's including a Pinzgauer playing in, if I remember rightly, a old abandoned quarry up around Newcastle some where and there was a Humvee there, it just toyed with them all. You are right about the Pinzgauer it nearly fell over trying to go up a reasonably steep rock face, looked the least stable vehicle there.

Add on the aftermarket six inch lift air suspension that you can buy for them and the giant tyres that can fit them and they are virtually unstoppable.

[Marty110]

Why do u miss the Defender, this is not a provocative question
without doubt the Deefer, especially modified the way mine have been, have a lot more 4x4 'character'. They also need a lot more thinking and driver input in severe off-road than the RRS so were a good challenge when that was what I was looking for. Plus, I just loved modifying them, nothing much needs modifying on the RRS though I have done a bit..........

[Tote]

Soooo 1 week into Defender ownership after having a D3 for 7.5 years here's my thoughts:

We took the 130 for a bit of a drive tagging along on a LRC driver training day. Oddly enough it did everything that I would have expected it to on a fairly gentle track in the Brindabellas. My initial impressions after having driven the D3 on the same track many times is that the Defender is harder work to achieve the same result.
With the Disco you choose the correct setting for the track and allow the vehicle to gently proceed over the terrain while enjoying the view. If you pick the wrong ratio for a descent press the HDC button and wait while the vehicle regains composure for you and then proceed.
With the Defender consider if you need to lock the centre diff, select a gear for the whole ascent/descent, consider how you will recover the vehicle if you make a mistake in selecting a ratio, let out the clutch and actually drive the vehicle 100% of the time.
The Disco makes the trip look effortless while you gently modulate your progress with your right boot. In the Defender you adjust yourself to the fact that you have one arm jammed up against the window and your shoulders ache because the console is too low to rest your other elbow on it.
On road the Disco feels like a big whale like car. Goes and stops like a car and quietly whisks you home from your adventure in comfort. The Defender drives like an 8 ton truck (because it is a truck), you consider the gear that you are selecting and then wait for the boost to come up as you accelerate through the gears and derive considerable pleasure as the torque allows you to travel at a pace far greater than you think you should be able to ( like an empty 8 ton truck )

Would I want the Disco back? No, I need a touring vehicle that is a dual cab that doubles as a farm vehicle, a specification that the Disco does not meet. Is the Defender better off road, I don't know, despite having the Disco for 7.5 years I only managed to find the limit of its capabilities twice, both times attributable to a lack of traction, one of which muddies would have helped, the other I needed 35's which the Defender does not have as stock. In summary the vehicles are generally both more capable than I need so ultimately it's a moot point.

Am I developing Stockholm syndrome? probably, the Defender is a fantastic vehicle but for a very different set of reasons than the Disco is.

Regards,
Tote

[gghaggis]

Is this really still going ??

I think it's time we asked for closing arguments and then called it a day. Here's mine ......

The Series/County/Defender style LR has been around for a long, long time. It has created a vision and lifestyle around the brand, that LR have been reluctant to lose. But ironically, it's that decades-old inertia around the original design that has finally precipitated its demise. LR were boxed into a corner with the design and technology of the model, and only finally relented to the writing on the wall and axed it a few weeks ago. Still an open wound for many.

It was too hard to re-tool to keep it modern; the chassis was too old a design to easily upgrade to modern safety requirements; the external shape (and chassis design) limited what could be modernised, and there was a huge push back from brand affectionados any time such endeavours were attempted. When GKN modernised the LR Defender line at the turn of the century (no more hand-welded joints - all roboticised, shock, horror!!), it upped the robustness of the chassis, but was seen as the "death of the true LR" by the anorak brigade.

What went wrong? The ladder box chassis design, although strong, presented poor rigidity (hence the requirement to have such accurate joint welds), couldn't be designed to absorb external compression events (hence failure of crash tests) and precluded the adaption to fit more modern technology. The fact that (in my eyes) the LR County V8 was the strongest of the old designs, meant that many a Defender owner would have tears in their eyes remembering their older vehicles - the design simply went downhill from there.

By contrast, there was never really that much past-indulging inertia for the Discovery or Range Rover to overcome. With one or two exceptions in the D2 updates, every Discovery release has been better than the last. Ditto for the Rangie (P38 owners rejoice!). LR was relatively free to change design mid-stream, on a much greater scale than with the Defender. The investment in the hydroform chassis + monoque body (the "intergrated chassis design" of the T5) meant huge leaps forward. The new 3mm hydroformed ladder chassis was stronger than the Defender's, and yet the additional monoque structure added greater rigidity than the old L322 design (which has been the class leader at the point of the introduction of the D3). The EAS / TR technology for off-road environments gave a huge ability to fine-tune the vehicle to a much larger variety of terrains.

There was (and is) no way the Defender could (can) compete. It's focus on clearance / wheel travel / off-road angles have kept it in the off-roading ball park for far longer than it should have, but at such a sacrifice to safety and comfort that relatively few buyers consider it over the Jap competition. It's been the T800 vs T1000 Terminator all over again.

The D4 has a far stronger chassis / body construction - panels don't pop out of alignment at every cross-axle event. It's TR system will provide greater traction than any standard Defender-type design could ever hope for. The new powerplants + drivelines provide better fuel economy in virtually every environment (eg 14 l/100km on the CSR vs 16 ~ 18 l/100 for the Defenders). The downside of all this new technology is cost - cost to purchase, cost to modify and cost to understand.

The new "Defender" can start with a fresh design sheet. Let's hope it combines the best of the T5/T7 design.

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

Thank you for that Gordon that was a good read and pretty much sums it all up I reckon. Same with Tote his last post puts everything in perspective as well.

I fully expected this topic to create some interest and I thought it would last a few days and end up at a few dozen interesting posts, well several weeks later it cracked a 1,000, which as far as I can tell is one of the largest actual Land Rover specific threads discussing four wheel driving on the forum.

So maybe it is time to move on.

thank you everyone who contributed to this thread.

[Celtoid]

The Space Shuttle Program came to mind many, many posts ago.


Almost exactly the same reasons ..... there was nothing left for NASA to do, it just couldn't be upgraded or modified anymore. It had come to a developmental Dead Zone.


Ant that is obviously no disrespect ... It's just a 'Life Of Type' reality.

[ozscott]

What a fantastic develpmental dead zone to be left with!

Cheers

[Celtoid]

What a fantastic develpmental dead zone to be left with!

Cheers


Indeed mate.


Too true.

[PAT303]

Neither do I Andy, there are a number of very capable 4x4's that have independent suspension and run rings around live axle 4x4's.

The picture below shows one of them that has all round independent suspension and comes with 35's standard and makes every Land Rover ever made look like soft roaders, Defenders included.

There is a video somewhere on Aulro from several years ago of some Aulro members in their various Landy's including a Pinzgauer playing in, if I remember rightly, a old abandoned quarry up around Newcastle some where and there was a Humvee there, it just toyed with them all. You are right about the Pinzgauer it nearly fell over trying to go up a reasonably steep rock face, looked the least stable vehicle there.

Add on the aftermarket six inch lift air suspension that you can buy for them and the giant tyres that can fit them and they are virtually unstoppable.
There's also a video of a Hummer stuck on a beach and a bloke in an FJ Cruiser continually driving by it :o,I've driven a Hummer,it takes a special type of designer to make a vehicle 7 feet wide but give the passengers less room than a '60's mini ;). Pat

[LandyAndy]

The yankie marines in the Gulf war were more than happy to trade their HumVees for the 6x6 desert patrol Land Rovers(no they were NEVER a DEFENDER:p:p:p:p)
It has been discussed before when Ford owned JLR they tried to get the patents for the the 6x6 Perenties,fortunately it was registered with the Australian Army not JLR so no Pehwma powered 6x6 Rangers;););););)
Had a sit in one once.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/02/565.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/__8_0071.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/396.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/_11_0074.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/397.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/__2_0065.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/398.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/_10_0073.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/399.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/lrpv_afg9_big.jpg.html)
Andrew

[PAT303]

I'm all for the new defender,we have had endless threads about ''real'' defenders,the cafe latte scene defenders,ala the DC100 and everything in between.The original is a great vehicle,I have two,but the new one incorporating all the technology LR have developed building the RR,RRS,D3,D4,Evoque,Freelander and Disco sport plus all the smart tech those vehicles have will make it a market leader and will hopefully,like it's great great Grandfather,the mighty Range Rover Classic redefine it's segment,the workhorse 4WD market. Pat

[LandyAndy]

The 2 children in one of the pics are now almost 22,thats my boy in the chair.It was a donation to the SAS widows fund to sit in them and take photos/chat with the SAS boys.
AWESOME.
Andrew

[Celtoid]

The yankie marines in the Gulf war were more than happy to trade their HumVees for the 6x6 desert patrol Land Rovers(no they were NEVER a DEFENDER:p:p:p:p)
It has been discussed before when Ford owned JLR they tried to get the patents for the the 6x6 Perenties,fortunately it was registered with the Australian Army not JLR so no Pehwma powered 6x6 Rangers;););););)
Had a sit in one once.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/02/565.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/__8_0071.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/396.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/_11_0074.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/397.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/__2_0065.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/398.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/_10_0073.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/399.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/lrpv_afg9_big.jpg.html)
Andrew


I'm assuming the Pommie SAS use (d) the same or a variant?


Cheers.

[rar110]

I'm assuming the Pommie SAS use (d) the same or a variant? Cheers.

I don't think they use Land Rovers anymore. They use a specialist military vehicle. The SAS stopped using perenties for patrols a while ago AFAIK. Insufficient IED protection.

[LandyAndy]

I'm assuming the Pommie SAS use (d) the same or a variant?


Cheers.

No these are an Aussie invention.
Andrew

[DazzaTD5]

:mad::mad: Don't you have a workshop someplace to go to DazzaTD5....









:p

indeed... but a Land Rover specialist can not live on being in the workshop alone... :p :p :p

[LandyAndy]

indeed... but a Land Rover specialist can not live on being in the workshop alone... :p :p :p

TRUE.
But you fix JEEPS too,they should be backed up to Welshpool Rd waiting to get into your shop:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew

[Steve223]

like to see the D3 on 33" here http://youtu.be/TXc7QahT8Hk

[Meken]

Oh no it's stalled

[ozscott]

Nice D2 Steve.

Cheers

[LandyAndy]

D1 isnt it????
Andrew

[ozscott]

No in the vid the bronze one is a D1 and Steve's blue one is a D2. Cheers

[LandyAndy]

"THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE AND OPINION:

i own a 2013 2.2 110. Ive had parts thrown at my truck which in reality were thrown at it becuase of simple fixes which the dealer didnt address for what ever reason. For example i had 3 rear diffs (the 1st diff however was setup inccorrectly from factory) when the actual problem was the rear axels and flanges for example, ive even had 2 gearboxes :what: amongst a long list
Anyway to make a puma tough and reliable you need the following (remeber my opinion):
Hd rear axels
Hd flanges all round
Rear diff locker
Rear wheel carrier
Ashcroft output shaft kit

Thats it! Thats my experience, those listed items make the puma a formidable beast, tougher than any toyo or nissan out there! Obviously i could go on with the list of mods but they are not necessities but rather "wants" eg intercooler, remap, egr removal, 33s, bullbar, roof rack, lights, draws, snorkel, etc etc etc"

Funnily enough none of this was mentioned when slagging off D4s.3 diffs and 2 gearboxes in a vehicle thats only a couple of years old.How many other failures have you had???
Enough there to demand your money back under lemon laws!!!! Tough trucks them Defenders!!!!
Andrew

[1nando]

[QUOTE=LandyAndy;2502593]"THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE AND OPINION:

i own a 2013 2.2 110. Ive had parts thrown at my truck which in reality were thrown at it becuase of simple fixes which the dealer didnt address for what ever reason. For example i had 3 rear diffs (the 1st diff however was setup inccorrectly from factory) when the actual problem was the rear axels and flanges for example, ive even had 2 gearboxes :what: amongst a long list
Anyway to make a puma tough and reliable you need the following (remeber my opinion):
Hd rear axels
Hd flanges all round
Rear diff locker
Rear wheel carrier
Ashcroft output shaft kit

Thats it! Thats my experience, those listed items make the puma a formidable beast, tougher than any toyo or nissan out there! Obviously i could go on with the list of mods but they are not necessities but rather "wants" eg intercooler, remap, egr removal, 33s, bullbar, roof rack, lights, draws, snorkel, etc etc etc"

Funnily enough none of this was mentioned when slagging off D4s.3 diffs and 2 gearboxes in a vehicle thats only a couple of years old.How many other failures have you had???
Enough there to demand your money back under lemon laws!!!! Tough trucks them Defenders!!!!


The point im trying to make is that at the beginning of owning my defender i had multiple parts thrown at my truck as a result of the dealer not knowing how to fix it properly. 2 rear diffs, 2 boxes, a clutch, front prop, rear tailshaft, etc with no improvement on my backlash all because of a simple fix the dealer cluldnt work out. It wasnt until Pat303 on this site said it was the rear flanges that all my issues were sorted. The rear flanges were the cause of all of my issues and when repleced ive never had an issue since!

I got unlucky with my flanges and to my dealers credit they tried everything to fix it.

As for the other mods i mentioned them in earlier posts in this thread.

Ps: i could post hundreds of links where people have had multiple parts replaced becuase of things as simple as a faulty sensor or dodgey wiring!

[Celtoid]

Let it rest guys ....

[TerryO]

If you have owned a highly modified for off roading D1 then chances are it has had a body lift, usually two inches is the norm. This along with some body work allows 33's to be fitted quite easy.

This pretty much became illegal once air bags and later on stability control became the norm. However that has how changed recently and its now legal to give your late model vehicle a 2" body lift without a engineers certificate.

Given the age and value of D3's now I reckon it's only a matter of time before this is done to those that are used for serious off roading. A 2" body lift with a couple of other minor mods would make it easy to fit 33's, possibly even bigger tyres. Once that is done to the present generation Disco then it would be pretty unstoppable off road and all the limitations mentioned by our Defender friends are gone and then the best 4wd ever made just became even better.

Attached is the link.

4WD lift kits now legal (http://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/news/2016/4wd-lift-kits-now-legal-55696)

[manic]

So now it's the possibility of a d3 with body lift and 33s vs puma with?

Keep trying terryo.

Nice to see them relaxing laws on 4wd mods for a change.

[AndyG]

MANIC , you haven't been paying attention, the Defender is factory standard, including the muddies, but the Disco can be modded, :p

But like they said, move on

[TerryO]

MANIC , you haven't been paying attention, the Defender is factory standard, including the muddies, but the Disco can be modded, :p

But like they said, move on


That is not what was said and you know it.

By the way the only true way to move on Andy is not to comment. If you comment than you haven't actually moved on, so feel free to move on.

[strangy]

That is not what was said and you know it. By the way the only true way to move on Andy is not to comment. If you comment than you haven't actually moved on, so feel free to move on.

http://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y

[Russrobe]

Can we compare Apples and Oranges next time please. It would be much more productive.

[AndyG]

Oranges are rounder and roll away which is bad, but you can mod them with three toothpicks, then they are better than apples.:p

[Russrobe]

I like the rolling motion... Makes them go faster☺

[strangy]

An apple a day keeps the Dr away but there ain't no rhyme for oranges

[AndyG]

Orange have their own mobile phone service in Europe?

[TerryO]

Here is a very interesting comparison of off road ability and which is best between a Puma 110 and a Jeep Rubicon.

Compared with same tyres and air pressures, as all off road comparo should be to be relevant.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TsY5umMfUxg

[ozscott]

From memory the jeep had and used the sway bar disconnects which makes a huge difference ((easily fitted to a Deefer but not able to be operated from inside the cabin like Rub) but did not use its lockers.

I reckon a Deefer locked up with disconnects would eat it. Also the Jeep can only carry 1 jam sandwich in addition to a 52kg driver and 25 litres on fuel in the tank.

Cheers

[frantic]

Still trying terry?


Ill let LRW have the final word.


http://www.l2sfbc.com/sites/pacfar.drupalgardens.com/files/201308/LRW-BestOffroad2.pdf


Defender No.1, I give the final say to the professionals! :p


Maybe you should have done D3/4 v range rover current model and previous model from 2005-16?

[Disco Muppet]

Guys, get them out on the table and measure them, put this to rest.
If not, it's time to shut up and move on.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoMick]

Interesting LRW comparison by Robert Pepper, who knows his stuff.

[TerryO]

Still trying terry?


Ill let LRW have the final word.


Defender No.1, I give the final say to the professionals! :p


Maybe you should have done D3/4 v range rover current model and previous model from 2005-16?


You have a short memory Frantic, it was me who originally put that link up in this thread first and if you had actually read it Robert Pepper said his ultimate off road was not a Disco or Defender but a modded Supercharged V8 Range Rover Sport. Of course this article was written years before the more capable D4 was released.

So if your going to quote an article at least why not use one you found all by yourself and not one I put up. . ... ;)

Anyway our South African English friend says the Jeep is, in his words, best off road but the Defender was a way better tourer. So he and his mate are of the opinion that the Jeep wins the bush bashing test. ... :angel:

[frantic]

Therefore using your logic a grand Cherokee is better off-road than a wrangler rubicon , correct?:D

[TerryO]

Therefore using your logic a grand Cherokee is better off-road than a wrangler rubicon , correct?:D


That's not my logic your trying to quote, I think the Grand Cherokee is quite a capable vehicle off-road but not in the Rubicon league.

[manic]

http://www.l2sfbc.com/sites/pacfar.drupalgardens.com/files/201308/LRW-BestOffroad2.pdf


Defender No.1, I give the final say to the professionals!

Hmm I thought I posted that way back on page 3 billion!?

[Disco4SE]

Interesting thread. The original topic was between a D3/4 and a late model defender, then there were other brands thrown into the mix.
If we are talking the best off road vehicle straight off the showroom floor with no modifications, then the Jeep Wrangler Rubicon wins hands down. Double diff locks standard, live axles as well as electronic sway bar disconnect.


Then again I am a bit bias as I have one.


Cheers, Craig

[TerryO]

Hmm I thought I posted that way back on page 3 billion!?


You did, but I also posted it one or two thousand pages before yours. ... ;)

No matter it's a good read, not sure I agree that a modded Supercharged V8 Range Rover Sport would be the best off roader compared to either a Defender or D3/4.
Jimmy Salsa who has a reasonably modded RRS has found the limitations when it comes to fitting larger tyres and the Rangie struggles because of its wheel arches being much closer to the hub than the D3/4. Having both a 5 litre V8 D4 and a diesel D3 in my opinion the diesel is nicer and easier to drive when off road. Not sure bolting on a supercharger to the V8 would make it any more user friendly.

[ozscott]

Massive torque from then Supercharger i would think would make it very user friendly.

Cheers

[frantic]

Massive torque from then Supercharger i would think would make it very user friendly.

Cheers

Yup a supercharger or blower is on song from the time the engine starts and gives far more torque lower in the rev range compared to a turbo that requires the exhaust gas to turn it to boost the oxy and power. The issue with an off-roader is if you get **** near the belts that drive the blower it could cause big problems .Whereas hairdryers are not belt driven and importantly give a lower cog. But for the fastest tourqiest response a blown v8 petrol is ideal.

[LandyAndy]

Yup a supercharger or blower is on song from the time the engine starts and gives far more torque lower in the rev range compared to a turbo that requires the exhaust gas to turn it to boost the oxy and power. The issue with an off-roader is if you get **** near the belts that drive the blower it could cause big problems .Whereas hairdryers are not belt driven and importantly give a lower cog. But for the fastest tourqiest response a blown v8 petrol is ideal.

Then there is the turbo setup in our 3.0 D4s.There is no lag at all:):):):):):):)
Andrew

[TerryO]

A 3 litre diesel D4 has 600nm of torque standard and much of that is very low in the rev range, if that is not enough for crawling up rocky / muddy hills etc in low range then I'm not sure how much is.

I prefer the V8 for road use, for serious off road usage a decent diesel is a better thing in my opinion.

[Meken]

Max torque in the 3l is 2000 rpm - in 1st low that's still really slow

[LandyAndy]

Well thats 110 pages.
Andrew

[chuck]

I went up Ladder track today in my stock D4 along with my sons Defender 90 which is stock except for bigger tyres (255 85 16 BFG KM2's).

I would rate the rack as difficult and we both got up with out recovery.

I think the D4 was more stable in that at one stage the 90 was on two wheels.

I did incur scratches on the rims & at one stage was in super extended mode.

Both very capable vehicles.

Might have to invest in some GOE rims & wider tyres to keep the rims away from the rocks.

No photos as we were busy trying to get up the track.

[ozscott]

No mate. The 90 was just showing you it COULD do it on 2 wheels.

[Tote]

Thought I'd add some more fuel to the fire with my latest experience in my 130. We did a trip on Sunday and I managed to find the outside limits of where my Defender would go and I am confident that the D3 would have made it up the hill on the same track. The biggest difference was that the traction control on the 130 was not up to the task on a loose rutted climb where the D3 with an automatic transmission, factory rear diff lock and more advanced traction control would have done the climb. Tyres were not a consideration as the 130 has MTRs on it and I only ever had ATs on the D3
I found that the longer pulse time in braking and releasing the wheels caused traction to be lost as soon as it was gained.
TC isn't as good as on SWMBO's wrangler either:o

Off to my friendly aftermarket supplier for a rear diff lock for the 130........

Regards,
Tote

[Disco-tastic]

The Beast is alive again!

:eek: :wasntme:

[muddymech]

Thought I'd add some more fuel to the fire with my latest experience in my 130. We did a trip on Sunday and I managed to find the outside limits of where my Defender would go and I am confident that the D3 would have made it up the hill on the same track. The biggest difference was that the traction control on the 130 was not up to the task on a loose rutted climb where the D3 with an automatic transmission, factory rear diff lock and more advanced traction control would have done the climb. Tyres were not a consideration as the 130 has MTRs on it and I only ever had ATs on the D3
I found that the longer pulse time in braking and releasing the wheels caused traction to be lost as soon as it was gained.
TC isn't as good as on SWMBO's wrangler either:o

Off to my friendly aftermarket supplier for a rear diff lock for the 130........

Regards,
Tote

is that a late model, did not think tc was on 130 until sep15 build

[Tote]

November 2015 Build 130

Regards,
Tote

[ozscott]

Try twin lockers and then report back. Best of both worlds...wheel travel and traction.

Cheers

[LandyAndy]

I see the latest Defender is being advertised:cool::cool::cool::cool:
It looks a bit more modern.:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:
Andrew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuDdNYLcnjo

[sheerluck]

Wow. First time I've seen this thread, and it has proved to be an interesting read.

Good to see the flat earth Defender owners still refusing to believe in progress. :lol2:

[ozscott]

OMG...it's all going to kick off again.

Cheers

[Toxic_Avenger]

OMG...it's all going to kick off again.

Cheers

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/442.jpg

[Steve223]

This is still going ?????? Defender all the way https://youtu.be/lvZbleEgx2I

[SimmAus]

This is still going ?????? Defender all the way Video Link: https://youtu.be/lvZbleEgx2I (https://youtu.be/lvZbleEgx2I)

From a guy with a Disco as his pic? ;-)

[Disco Muppet]

Portals are definitely against the rules...

[LandyAndy]

I see the latest Defender is being advertised:cool::cool::cool::cool:
It looks a bit more modern.:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:
Andrew

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuDdNYLcnjo

In Defence of Defenders.
Surely the yanks cant steal a trademark name so quick????
Andrew

[Disco-tastic]

In Defence of Defenders.
Surely the yanks cant steal a trademark name so quick????
Andrew

Im pretty sure their previous model was called the ranger...

Not as iconic as defender, but still...

EDIT: Polaris sells a ranger. one of the other models in the can am range is the commander.

Cheers


Dan

[Toxic_Avenger]

There's a jeep commander.

[frantic]

I think Lr just won a court order stopping them using the Defender name on their ATV.


Back on topic. This was put on general chat, but november2 and October has a few more interesting vids!





The latest one has a defender saving some swedes in a scoobydoo but the early November 2nd and late October have a few D3/4 's stuck. in one the Disco is barely able to get through but then turns around to try and help a toymota with a trailer, the Disco is bogged as soon as he stopped, he doesn't even get to tighten the snatch strap!...................
There is a nice current or close to current model RR that flys through ! :D

[Tombie]

That D4 driver is an embarrassment!!!!

[frantic]

Same place, another landy with full psi and no gear?
Great tech but .........

https://m.facebook.com/I-got-bogged-at-Inskip-Point-909459205826443/'mds=%2Fsharer-dialog.php%3Ffs%3D5%26fr%26m%3Dpage%26sid%3D102116 46217181173%26_ft_%3Dtop_level_post_id.10231331277 92383%253Atl_objid.1023133127792383%253Athrowback_ story_fbid.1023133127792383%26internal_preview_ima ge_id&mdf=1

[Chops]

Same place, another landy with full psi and no gear?
Great tech but .........

https://m.facebook.com/I-got-bogged-at-Inskip-Point-909459205826443/'mds=%2Fsharer-dialog.php%3Ffs%3D5%26fr%26m%3Dpage%26sid%3D102116 46217181173%26_ft_%3Dtop_level_post_id.10231331277 92383%253Atl_objid.1023133127792383%253Athrowback_ story_fbid.1023133127792383%26internal_preview_ima ge_id&mdf=1

DIS4 on here I believe, young Gary.

[Russrobe]

Guy commented "My patrol, as I pulled up ol man was digging sand out with his hands, he had NO recovery gear and 35psi in his tyres. Used my max trax and shovel, let his tyres down to 12psi. Ended up having to snatch him out."

Gary what were you doing with 35PSI in your tyres? Lol

I did the exact same thing the first time i went 4x4ing on a beach though...

[scarry]

A bit Off topic........

Many years ago,we used to spend a fair bit of time at at Ellie ck,we used to camp near by.

Watching the vehicles hit the creek,particularly if the tide was up a bit,and there was an 18" drop off,was always interesting:o

We actually used to catch some very good sized perch in that creek as well,the favourite bait being grasshoppers.

[LRD414]

DIS4 on here I believe, young Gary.
I can't find the video ......
Strange because I know Gary got a lot of good advice on here about sand driving.

Scott

[Chops]

I can only get a link to the whole website, and not just the post Scott, but from memory, it was posted on or about the 30th Dec.
I spoke with him yesterday and he said he had a few problems along the way.
Was a crappy phone connection, so looking forward to catching up with him and hearing the whole story clearly. We're going to go down south from here (to South Gippsland) and try some things when we get some free time. :D

[TerryO]

Did we ever resolve this? ...[bigwhistle]

[rick130]

Did we ever resolve this? ...[bigwhistle]It never needed resolving in the first place as everyone knows the original, live axle Deefer is the better off roader. [emoji12]

[TerryO]

It never needed resolving in the first place as everyone knows the original, live axle Deefer is the better off roader. [emoji12]

Funny I seem to remember reading on Aulro a number of times that the original Series was best off road and live axle Defers were for girly men. ... [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Have a look in my sig,it’s horses for courses,have had them all in very rough stuff.

Don’t want to comment anymore as it will just fuel an argument[tonguewink]

What I can say is the newer two are far better than the oldie[bighmmm]

[rick130]

Funny I seem to remember reading on Aulro a number of times that the original Series was best off road and live axle Defers were for girly men. ... [bigwhistle]Absolutely Terry.
Which is why I drive a Disco! [emoji12][emoji23]

[TerryO]

Unfortunately and I do mean unfortunately given some of the various YouTube videos of the new Defender being tested and compared to other 4x4’s off road the topic of this thread might be just as relevant as for the old Defenders.

[loanrangie]

Unfortunately and I do mean unfortunately given some of the various YouTube videos of the new Defender being tested and compared to other 4x4’s off road the topic of this thread might be just as relevant as for the old Defenders.

Even more so since they essentially share the same suspension and the new 110 is close to the D3/4 wheelbase.

[Red90]

A traditional Defender with a rear locker is much better off road than a D3/4/5 or new Defender.

[101RRS]

Yes and a twin locked D3/D4 with LLAMS will be better again [thumbsupbig]. The point is once you start modifying vehicles all comparison bets are off so a locked Defender is not a valid comparison.

[Red90]

Yes and a twin locked D3/D4 with LLAMS will be better again [thumbsupbig]. The point is once you start modifying vehicles all comparison bets are off so a locked Defender is not a valid comparison.

No. Not even in the same class. There is nothing you can do to one of those Discos to make them beyond average off road. Of course I actually have experience off reading past the limits on all of them so what do I know.

[101RRS]

Well that is your opinion - even if it is crap [bigrolf]

[scarry]

Had them both off road,with no mods except tyres,and 40mm lift on Deefer.E diff,D4.

In some situations,the D4 will leave the Defender for dead.

In other situations,the Deefer will leave the D4 for dead.

How do i know?
Both in my sig have been same place,same time.

The Traction control is set up differently in the two vehicles,and that makes a huge difference,although the later Puma did have an updated TC system,probably software,which was better,i believe?

But they are both very capable off roaders.

[101RRS]

I agree - the point is if you start modifiying the vehicles then you are comparing the mods not the base vehicle.

I think a standard of the show room floor late model Puma Defender will be better offroad in most conditions than unmodified late model Discos - but once modifications, like lockers start to be installed all bets are off as it comes down to the mods.

Garry

[TuffRR]

Having watched a few videos of the new Defender off-road, i think it would be interesting to compare a late model D4 and new Defender. On paper they should be pretty much the same with maybe a slight edge to Defender as it has newer tech. But, from what i have seen so far either people don't know how to drive them or the D4 is potentially more capable.

Surely it has to be people don't know how to drive them off road (this is true of most modern LR's). Which is ironic as terrain response was designed to simplify and enhance vehicle capability. In reality it does the opposite.

[RANDLOVER]

I agree the new electronic traction aids do seem to need a bit of playing around to get the best out of them or at least some time attempting an obstacle for them to sort themselves out. The G-wagen with triple lockers was very impressive against all comers incl. the new Defender on a test I saw on Youtube in Spanish! Deefer didn't have a rear locker IIRC.

[Micha]

Indeed quiet a few video's of the new Defender are for units W/O rear eDif, especially from the US.
Still even when considering the ones which are claimed to be with rear eDif, the wheel spin and general behavior on rocks seem not on par with a D3/4.
The Defender makes up for it with better angles and clearance, but still odd and disappointing.
Hopefully someone will soon pitch the new Defender against a D3/4 (with both having eDif) on the same track same day..

[twr7cx]

We have here a 1998 Discovery 1 V8i (stock standard with only 125,000km), MY03 Disco 2 Td5 HSE (extensively modified), two MY12 D4 2.7L TDV6. Despite all that the Mrs and I both miss our old MY11 Defender Puma (was stock standard with 70,000km on it and the clutch shudder when we sold it) - it was the noisiest of the low, the most uncomfortable (seating position squish etc.), worse fuel economy out of all the diesels despite being the smallest, lightest and 6 speed manual transmission, but it just had an X factor that made it fun to drive and the one you wanted to drive! The Disco's all make sense and are smart buys but they don't put the same smile.

As for what's better off road - well depends on what you want. The most capable 4WD can sometimes also be the most boring as there's no challenge left. A vehicle that soaks up all the bumps can be likewise if driving off road starts to feel smooth etc. Again, the Defender would be my choice even if it was beaten by capabilities...