Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

[Marty110]

Hi Scarry,

You mention a 40mm lift. Did you have to use a double cardan front prop shaft? Did the lift remain at 40mm or has it settled at a little lower than that?
with my 50mm lift on the Puma I had to go to a Cornay joint to get rid of the vibration, the double cardan didn't quite do it and chewed out the centre joint regularly

[SimmAus]

Not having driven one, a D4, i will have to accept the common wisdom the D4 is a hugely technically capable vehicle, especially if you dont have any friends or cargo for more than a week away from civilization.

I can imagine HRH, James Bond or myself :p in a Defender or Range Rover, but a half breed mongrel compromise :wasntme: I don't think so.

Let's pick up this conversation in 2050 and see if the Discovery lasts thetest of time and is still being made.

Happy Australia Day!!

Righto, and at risk of taking the bait:

Point 1 above: does that extra 400kg payload really allow you to stay away indefinitely with 4 buddies? Most 4wd trips I've only seen 1 driver, and maybe 1 passenger (but that's only my experience). I've also travelled 3 weeks self sufficient (fuel excluded) in my small shopping trolley.

Point 2: Well that settles the argument! HRH only travels in a Defender when there is no risk of hitting another car, tree, anything (soft muddy fields only) otherwise it's a Rangie (with ABS, DSC, an airbag or two, and a few other semi modern safety features). The ability to hose the inside out is apparently a Royal prerequisite too - all that horse poo etc!
You do know James Bond is a fictional character?
Batman likes driving a Disco.

Point 3. Welcome this. The Defender in current form is no longer, and rumored to be reincarnated on the D4 chassis. (Won't that raise eyebrows).
The Disco had changed over its 25 years; the Series, County, Defender has (a bit), but not enough to survive. Only time will tell I suppose.

At the end of it all, I'll repeat : both great cars for the right reasons/situations.

Happy Off-roading!

[rick130]

with my 50mm lift on the Puma I had to go to a Cornay joint to get rid of the vibration, the double cardan didn't quite do it and chewed out the centre joint regularly


Geez, what angle is that t/case end ? :o

[scarry]

Hi Scarry,

You mention a 40mm lift. Did you have to use a double cardan front prop shaft? Did the lift remain at 40mm or has it settled at a little lower than that?

Apologies to the OP,

Geez we are getting slightly off topic here:o:D

Haven't actually measured it to be sure,i am guessing it is probably somewhere around 35 mm now.
Forty mm is the highest you can go with no issues and using the original drive shafts.
The vehicle has done around 60k since the raise with no issues.One thing i have noticed is the grease nipples in the front drive shaft are extremely difficult to get to.:mad:

[Steve223]

with my 50mm lift on the Puma I had to go to a Cornay joint to get rid of the vibration, the double cardan didn't quite do it and chewed out the centre joint regularly


strange here is mine and Dave's former Defender

3" lift on mine and 5" on Dave's and on 35" double cardan's do the job 0 driveshaft vibrations....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/136.jpg

[Marty110]

strange here is mine and Dave's former Defender

3" lift on mine and 5" on Dave's and on 35" double cardan's do the job 0 driveshaft vibrations....


yes, and apologies again to the OP for off topic. I was told there was variation between individual Pumas, maybe mine had the trans case tilted slightly further back. But with mine only going to the Cornay sorted the vibration issues.

[PAT303]

Apologies to the OP,

Geez we are getting slightly off topic here:o:D

Haven't actually measured it to be sure,i am guessing it is probably somewhere around 35 mm now.
Forty mm is the highest you can go with no issues and using the original drive shafts.
The vehicle has done around 60k since the raise with no issues.One thing i have noticed is the grease nipples in the front drive shaft are extremely difficult to get to.:mad:

Re grease nipples,damn right they are,absolute PITA. Pat

[PAT303]

yes, and apologies again to the OP for off topic. I was told there was variation between individual Pumas, maybe mine had the trans case tilted slightly further back. But with mine only going to the Cornay sorted the vibration issues.

Cool truck Marty. Pat

[PAT303]

strange here is mine and Dave's former Defender

3" lift on mine and 5" on Dave's and on 35" double cardan's do the job 0 driveshaft vibrations....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/136.jpg

Righty,spot the five differences between the vehicles in the picture :D. Pat

[rick130]

One thing i have noticed is the grease nipples in the front drive shaft are extremely difficult to get to.:mad:

Paul, I bought a needle adapter for doing the centre bearing in the TW DC shaft, otherwise it's impossible and I damned near leave it on all the time for all the easy to get to nipples too.

[ozscott]

I love it....this is (allegedly) the D3/4 page.

Stefan what steering damper are you running?
Cheers

[rick130]

strange here is mine and Dave's former Defender

3" lift on mine and 5" on Dave's and on 35" double cardan's do the job 0 driveshaft vibrations....



The Tdci driveline sits at a much steeper angle than our earlier engined versions, which makes the front driveshaft sit at not far from it's maximum operating angle at normal ride height !

[rick130]

I love it....this is (allegedly) the D3/4 page.



:twisted:

[AndyG]

So who makes the best cardon shaft :twisted::angel:

[Disco Muppet]

Britpart.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

So who makes the best cardon shaft :twisted::angel:


:Rolling:

[Meken]

Took the D4 up & down the duck creek "road" (track) today - was relatively dry on the up - down was after a bit of rain and quite slippery in places. Have no idea when it happened but I gravel rashed the rear driver wheel [emoji47]. So that's the last time it goes off the bitumen [emoji57]
Performed flawlessly on the 20" HTs at full road pressure (too lazy to let the pressures down) (everyone else saw was on ATs or MTs

[scarry]

Took the D4 up & down the duck creek "road" (track) today - was relatively dry on the up - down was after a bit of rain and quite slippery in places. Have no idea when it happened but I gravel rashed the rear driver wheel [emoji47]. So that's the last time it goes off the bitumen [emoji57]
Performed flawlessly on the 20" HTs at full road pressure (too lazy to let the pressures down) (everyone else saw was on ATs or MTs

And drove past a couple of Defenders that had lost traction and had no forward motion:p:D:D;)


Oh,by the way i followed a Camry up that road after a bit of rain a few years back.

[rick130]

I press the hill descent button.... Take my foot of the brake and pick my line - all at the insane speed of 1 1/2 km/hr

May as well have your man do the driving for you, or stay back in your lounge room sitting in your Chesterfield and watch your telly in real time from there.

:angel:

[LandyAndy]

I love it....this is (allegedly) the D3/4 page.

Stefan what steering damper are you running?
Cheers

Yes.
I could shift the thread to where it should have been started,but it isnt my baby:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:.Now you blokes have trashed our coffee machine and agreed that D4's are superior in every way and gone back to discussing modifying your toys to keep up I think Terry can shift the thread down to you blokes' turf:D:D:D:D:D:D
Andrew

[rick130]

Yes.
I could shift the thread to where it should have been started,but it isnt my baby:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:.Now you blokes have trashed our coffee machine and agreed that D4's are superior in every way and gone back to discussing modifying your toys to keep up I think Terry can shift the thread down to you blokes' turf:D:D:D:D:D:D
Andrew


That'd be right, when things aren't going the D4 drivers way they throw their rattles out of the pram. :p


Oops, damn, I shouldn't have mentioned rattles when Deefers are being discussed......

[MrLandy]

Yes.
I could shift the thread to where it should have been started,but it isnt my baby:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:.Now you blokes have trashed our coffee machine and agreed that D4's are superior in every way and gone back to discussing modifying your toys to keep up I think Terry can shift the thread down to you blokes' turf:D:D:D:D:D:D
Andrew

Well IF D4's are superior in every way thread is in the right place. I'm looking forward to the opportunity off roading with a D4 alongside either of my Defenders. Particularly over the long term, touring HD tracks. We'll see which is superior.... :angel:

[LandyAndy]

Sorry fellas.
I though the fact that you blokes were discussing modifications was an admission of defeat.
If you are going to hang around how about a new coffee machine,plus some coffee milk and sugar.We have been making Terry pay for it all since he invited you rabble in here:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

[Steve223]

So who makes the best cardon shaft :twisted::angel:


GBR Utha hands down

[LandyAndy]

Bloody oil everywhere over the shag pile carpet in our parking lot since you Deefer steerers turned up:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Andrew

[MrLandy]

Sorry fellas.
I though the fact that you blokes were discussing modifications was an admission of defeat.
If you are going to hang around how about a new coffee machine,plus some coffee milk and sugar.We have been making Terry pay for it all since he invited you rabble in here:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

He he... I'll make you a real coffee anytime LandyAndy. But not sure you D4 guys could handle a real cafe doppio with no milk ...black as oil :p

[frantic]

Sorry fellas.
I though the fact that you blokes were discussing modifications was an admission of defeat.
If you are going to hang around how about a new coffee machine,plus some coffee milk and sugar.We have been making Terry pay for it all since he invited you rabble in here:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

Actually, the op admitted in the first post the only way a D3/4 can match a stock defender is if it's modified with the largest possible tyres. :D so that would make it an admission of defeat on page 1, post 1?:twisted:
Seriously though, lies, damm lies and statistics. lr's own numbers show defender better approach, departure and ramp. Narrower body, significantly lighter weight and better payload. Search online, defender fewer fatal accidents per 1000 2 vehicle smashes than disco, also defender better RTI.
Now here's a challenge for TerryO, insurance. What's the comprehensive cost on a new $65,000 defender and a new $80,000+ disco? This will tell you several things, how many are in prangs, how many do your theoretical tumble, and how often their at.fault..... See with virtually the entire alphabet in caps lock 3 letter block, inside a Disco, they should almost never be in an at fault accident, roll or have their occupants injured, so the Disco premium should be way less that the Defender. ;)

[AndyG]

The fact the question was asked at all tells volumes, esp with a lot of one sided qualifications. Surprised car park roof height was not a criteria, that's off road by Disco standards :D

[AndyG]

Biggest mistake I made was modding the Defer at all. stock does everything I want. Even the right tyre size.

[MrLandy]

Biggest mistake I made was modding the Defer at all. stock does everything I want. Even the right tyre size.

Exactly. No mods needed. :cool:

[MrLandy]

Actually, the op admitted in the first post the only way a D3/4 can match a stock defender is if it's modified with the largest possible tyres. :D so that would make it an admission of defeat on page 1, post 1?:twisted:
Seriously though, lies, damm lies and statistics. lr's own numbers show defender better approach, departure and ramp. Narrower body, significantly lighter weight and better payload. Search online, defender fewer fatal accidents per 1000 2 vehicle smashes than disco, also defender better RTI.

Fascinating stats.

[TerryO]

Are you Defender owners enjoying talking to yourselves? As you basically have been for four or five pages by the way.

In case you hadn't noticed we Disco owners aren't really responding anymore, not since it was shown unequivocally that a late model Disco is superior ( that means better) off road than a Defender.
So even though we were winning the debate easily your collective fates were sealed when Steve chimed in with his vast experience having owned and seriously taken off road both vehicles.

So the Disco camp won, any further conversation between yourselves is just background noise, the correct decision has been made and the Disco is numero uno.


Oh! by the way I nearly forgot, Frantic, you failed to add to your little inconsequential list what seems to be just about the most important thing for many of you Defender owners. That being that you guys can carry 27 bags of cow poo in the back of your 110's.

So it's not all bad for you guys as we accept that your Defenders definitely win the full of BS prize. ... ;)

Anyway I'm off for my early morning cappuccino. ... Ciao.

[Steve223]

Biggest mistake I made was modding the Defer at all. stock does everything I want. Even the right tyre size.


Hm that would only be true if you use the Defer as a shopping trolley or for fire trails, if you start using a Defender seriously off-road and think you get away for long without modification and upgrades you are kidding yourself, I know people with Pumas who are on the 3rd diff, haven't upgraded as still under LR Warranty. Don't get me wrong, I love my Defender and Disco but some seem to wear Pink Glasses if they hear LR and everything is only roses.

The Defender (and Disco for that matter) out of the box is not a incredible strong truck and will need upgrades if you want a reliable remote or tough tourer.
If you get away with a non modified Defender without breaking stuff you just don't drive it hard often enough [emoji13] , which is OK by the way...

The beauty of the Defender is we can do this, on the Disco you have very few options to further strengthen the truck. I became friend with Chris who purchased the D3 of me
and know the further history of the truck and he has by now replaced half his truck and is looking for a second Landy D1, 2 or rangy as a play truck...

I leave it like this here....

[Tombie]

Actually, the op admitted in the first post the only way a D3/4 can match a stock defender is if it's modified with the largest possible tyres. :D so that would make it an admission of defeat on page 1, post 1?:twisted:

Seriously though, lies, damm lies and statistics. lr's own numbers show defender better approach, departure and ramp. Narrower body, significantly lighter weight and better payload. Search online, defender fewer fatal accidents per 1000 2 vehicle smashes than disco, also defender better RTI.

Now here's a challenge for TerryO, insurance. What's the comprehensive cost on a new $65,000 defender and a new $80,000+ disco? This will tell you several things, how many are in prangs, how many do your theoretical tumble, and how often their at.fault..... See with virtually the entire alphabet in caps lock 3 letter block, inside a Disco, they should almost never be in an at fault accident, roll or have their occupants injured, so the Disco premium should be way less that the Defender. ;)


Wife's D90 costs more to insure and than my D4... [emoji41]

And using stats the *percentage* of Defenders is significantly higher than the *percentage* of Discoveries...

[1nando]

Hm that would only be true if you use the Defer as a shopping trolley or for fire trails, if you start using a Defender seriously off-road and think you get away for long without modification and upgrades you are kidding yourself, I know people with Pumas who are on the 3rd diff, haven't upgraded as still under LR Warranty. Don't get me wrong, I love my Defender and Disco but some seem to wear Pink Glasses if they hear LR and everything is only roses.

The Defender (and Disco for that matter) out of the box is not a incredible strong truck and will need upgrades if you want a reliable remote or tough tourer.
If you get away with a non modified Defender without breaking stuff you just don't drive it hard often enough [emoji13] , which is OK by the way...

The beauty of the Defender is we can do this, on the Disco you have very few options to further strengthen the truck. I became friend with Chris who purchased the D3 of me
and know the further history of the truck and he has by now replaced half his truck and is looking for a second Landy D1, 2 or rangy as a play truck...

I leave it like this here....

I agree with everything you have mentioned, but.....
A puma with a rear locker, 33s, shocks upgrade, HD flanges and hi tuff rear axels plus all the bar protection (bull bar etc). Is in my opinion a pretty good setup for touring and weekend trips. The fact that you are using 35s changes everything. 35s put a lot more stress on the drive train compared to 33s, my opinion.

Ps; Love your videos and your a bit of an idol Stefan. Love your work:thumbup:

[DiscoMick]

Are you Defender owners enjoying talking to yourselves? As you basically have been for four or five pages by the way.

In case you hadn't noticed we Disco owners aren't really responding anymore, not since it was shown unequivocally that a late model Disco is superior ( that means better) off road than a Defender.
So even though we were winning the debate easily your collective fates were sealed when Steve chimed in with his vast experience having owned and seriously taken off road both vehicles.

So the Disco camp won, any further conversation between yourselves is just background noise, the correct decision has been made and the Disco is numero uno.


Oh! by the way I nearly forgot, Frantic, you failed to add to your little inconsequential list what seems to be just about the most important thing for many of you Defender owners. That being that you guys can carry 27 bags of cow poo in the back of your 110's.

So it's not all bad for you guys as we accept that your Defenders definitely win the full of BS prize. ... ;)

Anyway I'm off for my early morning cappuccino. ... Ciao.


Goat poo, not cow poo, thank you.


Oh, I must have missed the bit when the D4 won.

[manic]

Are you Defender owners enjoying talking to yourselves? As you basically have been for four or five pages by the way.

In case you hadn't noticed we Disco owners aren't really responding anymore, not since it was shown unequivocally that a late model Disco is superior ( that means better) off road than a Defender.
So even though we were winning the debate easily your collective fates were sealed when....



Don't you mean it was won on page one post one when you declared your manifesto.

Your view was already encased in concrete and your ears stuffed with wool.

The OP lost it for the disco when parameters were: Mod the disco, don't mod the defender. Only compare with puma generation , yet allowed both d3 and d4

You tried to tee it up but in doing so you managed to shoot yourself in the foot.

The defender won.

Disco owners retreat.

[MrLandy]

For more than 15 years my Defenders have lived and worked in some of the harshest environments in the world, the western deserts of WA, the kimberley, the territory, as well as major trips in the high country, tassie, flinders ranges, strezlecki, simpson, nullarbor, oodnadatta, tanami, the harshest rocky tracks, sandy beaches, sandy deserts, you name it, I've driven over 500,000 km.

There is no way I would have felt confident in a Discovery. Clearly Discos are fantastic for predominantly urban based adventurers and those willing to rough them up on weekends or the occasional long trip and no doubt they are more luxurious, but more capable over the long term in that mix of constant terrain? I don't think so.

Horses for courses. The Defender is built predominantly as a heavy duty working 4WD. Discovery is built predominantly as a luxury urban centric vehicle, albeit very capable off road. If the question were tweaked to ask which is the best and most capable long term 4WD proposition, Defender is the clear winner for me. That's not to say that for others it's not the Discovery.

Cheers all.

PS: Defender mods - upgrade to Koni or bilstein shocks, bullbar, one set rear hte hub flanges. That's it.

PPS: I've just driven 600km this morning, MrLandy puma purred all the way. Waved at ten Disco Drivers, not one wave in return. Two Defenders, both hearty waves! Icing on the cake.

[Marty110]

[QUOTE=MrLandy;2484321]For more than 15 years my Defenders have lived and worked in some of the harshest environments in the world, the western deserts of WA, the kimberley, the territory, as well as major trips in the high country, tassie, flinders ranges, strezlecki, simpson, nullarbor, oodnadatta, tanami, the harshest rocky tracks, sandy beaches, sandy deserts, you name it, I've driven over 500,000 km. /QUOTE]

ahhhh.... so we are going to start listing where our vehicles have reliably taken us eh? RRS: Oodnadatta track, Gary Junction, Rudell River, Tanami, Kimberley, Pilbara, Flinders Ranges (4WD tracks on private property), Nullabor, West Coast, etc. Of course my Defenders took me here and a lot more places too cos I owned them for longer

Come on Tombie, wade in here....

[ozscott]

For more than 15 years my Defenders have lived and worked in some of the harshest environments in the world, the western deserts of WA, the kimberley, the territory, as well as major trips in the high country, tassie, flinders ranges, strezlecki, simpson, nullarbor, oodnadatta, tanami, the harshest rocky tracks, sandy beaches, sandy deserts, you name it, I've driven over 500,000 km.

There is no way I would have felt confident in a Discovery. Clearly Discos are fantastic for predominantly urban based adventurers and those willing to rough them up on weekends or the occasional long trip and no doubt they are more luxurious, but more capable over the long term in that mix of constant terrain? I don't think so.

Horses for courses. The Defender is built predominantly as a heavy duty working 4WD. Discovery is built predominantly as a luxury urban centric vehicle, albeit very capable off road. If the question were tweaked to ask which is the best and most capable long term 4WD proposition, Defender is the clear winner for me. That's not to say that for others it's not the Discovery.

Cheers all.

PS: Defender mods - upgrade to Koni or bilstein shocks, bullbar, one set rear hte hub flanges. That's it.

PPS: I've just driven 600km this morning, MrLandy puma purred all the way. Waved at ten Disco Drivers, not one wave in return. Two Defenders, both hearty waves! Icing on the cake.
Disco 3 and 4 that should read. D1 in particular was almost identical to Defender. D2 changed but was no less robust in chassis and running gear (with the exception of front CV's v swivel joints but you can get heavy CV's although I have never broken a stocker even in harsh terrain).

The exception is very early defender/county diffs but the stock D2 drivetrain is arguably (...)more robust than Puma.

Cheers

[AndyG]

Rereading post #1, the operational criteria was:
day trip around Lithgow
BASH the track or bush into submission.

Im happy to cede based on that criteria

I Would like to think Defender drivers are in harmony with their surrounds, have the window down , tanned forearm, and leave only tracks, not mud holes, chardonnay bottles, or nappies. as markers :D
And maybe drive more than 1 day from the nearest barista.

[Marty110]

ooops double post

[Marty110]

R

I Would like to think Defender drivers are in harmony with their surrounds, have the window down , tanned forearm, and leave only tracks, not mud holes, chardonnay bottles, or nappies. as markers :D
And maybe drive more than 1 day from the nearest barista.
obviously didn't read my previous post - not too many barristas where the RRS has been. I also have said forearm and no longer have kids in nappies - that was way back when I drove FJ40's. Oh, and I drink scotch not chardon-whats'it :angel:

[Meken]

May as well have your man do the driving for you, or stay back in your lounge room sitting in your Chesterfield and watch your telly in real time from there.

:angel:


I disagree totally. I did drive a few short sections without hdc on. Trying to brake (by foot) just ended up with unwanted wheel slip. Hdc worked far far far better at keeping car online than I could have ever driven.

[Meken]

And drove past a couple of Defenders that had lost traction and had no forward motion:p:D:D;)





Oh,by the way i followed a Camry up that road after a bit of rain a few years back.


NO chance of a Camry driving it up even in the dry at the moment, it's reasonably rough and the Camry wouldn't have anything left underneath.

[TerryO]

Don't you mean it was won on page one post one when you declared your manifesto.

Your view was already encased in concrete and your ears stuffed with wool.

The OP lost it for the disco when parameters were: Mod the disco, don't mod the defender. Only compare with puma generation , yet allowed both d3 and d4

You tried to tee it up but in doing so you managed to shoot yourself in the foot.

The defender won.

Disco owners retreat.


Puma's have been made from, was it 2006???? and have had various engine and other upgrades since then but it is still the same generation vehicle once they went away from TD5's and having external vents under the windscreen and having a bonnet hump etc.

Exactly the same thing is correct with the D3 and the D4, they are the same generation vehicle as well with several upgrades, so not sure why you keep bringing this up?

When it comes to you not liking the criteria set out in the op about allowing both vehicles to compete off road on the same size and spec tyres I thought it much fairer and more logical to put both on the same spec as a Defender rather than putting a Defender on Disco's 30" highway spec tyres.

As I originally said any comparison should be about each vehicles off road capabilities not who has the biggest tyre advantage.

But if you would rather compare the two vehicles off road on 30" highway tyres then trust me I'm fine with that. ... ;)

[rick130]

I disagree totally. I did drive a few short sections without hdc on. Trying to brake (by foot) just ended up with unwanted wheel slip. Hdc worked far far far better at keeping car online than I could have ever driven.


I'm not quite sure what you are disagreeing with, sounds like we're in agreement. ;)

[1nando]

Puma's have been made from, was it 2006???? and have had various engine and other upgrades since then but it is still the same generation vehicle once they went away from TD5's and having external vents under the windscreen and having a bonnet hump.

Exactly the same thing is correct with the D3 and the D4, they are the same generation vehicle as well with several upgrades, so not sure why your bringing this up.

When it comes to you not liking the criteria set out in the op about allowing both vehicles to compete off road on the same size and spec tyres I thought it fairer and more logical to put both on the same spec as a Defender rather than putting a Defender on Disco's 30" highway spec tyres.

As I originally said any comparison should be about each vehicles off road capabilities not who has the biggest tyre advantage.

But if you would rather compare the two vehicles off road on 30" highway tyres then trust me I'm fine with that. ... ;)

You know the puma has the advantage becuase of its bigger tyre size.....thats becuase it was designed for a purpose. You engineered this thread to have the same size tyres to take away the pumas advantage.

You've actually given me a great idea;

How about a thread along the lines off:

"Pumas are currently in high demand and people are paying high prices for them. Considering a d4 is only 10k more on average over a newish puma is it worth paying the extra?
Is the d4 better off road compared to a puma......if you take out the d4s automatic trickery is it actually any good off road?"

You see if i take something away that clearly gives a vehicle a huge advantage then it isnt a fair comparison!

If you still reckon it is then how about this;
You bring your disco on what ever size tyres you want and ill bring my puma on 33s and rear locked and you can use all the "automatic" crap you want and see who gets through what tracks. Dont worry ill bring a snatch strap for you :p

[MrLandy]

Puma's have been made from, was it 2006???? and have had various engine and other upgrades since then but it is still the same generation vehicle once they went away from TD5's and having external vents under the windscreen and having a bonnet hump etc.

Exactly the same thing is correct with the D3 and the D4, they are the same generation vehicle as well with several upgrades, so not sure why you keep bringing this up?

When it comes to you not liking the criteria set out in the op about allowing both vehicles to compete off road on the same size and spec tyres I thought it much fairer and more logical to put both on the same spec as a Defender rather than putting a Defender on Disco's 30" highway spec tyres.

As I originally said any comparison should be about each vehicles off road capabilities not who has the biggest tyre advantage.

But if you would rather compare the two vehicles off road on 30" highway tyres then trust me I'm fine with that. ... ;)

I've got 31" highway tyres on my 98 tdi... Sure lets go...

[manic]

Puma's have been made from, was it 2006???? and have had various engine and other upgrades since then but it is still the same generation vehicle once they went away from TD5's and having external vents under the windscreen and having a bonnet hump.

Exactly the same thing is correct with the D3 and the D4, they are the same generation vehicle as well with several upgrades....

Puma 2007
D3 2004

By allowing the older disco gen to compare to only the newest defender incarnation you are steering away from the d4 19" rim limitation, allowing the d3 to cover where the d4 fails (wheel size limits) and at the same time not allowing the previous defender gen (td5) to cover where the puma fails (weaker diffs supposedly).

Latest d4 vs Puma off the showroom floor is the logical comparison that would simplify the whole debate. But you couldn't present it like that because you would lose.

If you allow aftermarket modifications on both vehicles, again you loose.

Looks like you can't win.

[Celtoid]

Puma's have been made from, was it 2006???? and have had various engine and other upgrades since then but it is still the same generation vehicle once they went away from TD5's and having external vents under the windscreen and having a bonnet hump etc.

Exactly the same thing is correct with the D3 and the D4, they are the same generation vehicle as well with several upgrades, so not sure why you keep bringing this up?

When it comes to you not liking the criteria set out in the op about allowing both vehicles to compete off road on the same size and spec tyres I thought it much fairer and more logical to put both on the same spec as a Defender rather than putting a Defender on Disco's 30" highway spec tyres.

As I originally said any comparison should be about each vehicles off road capabilities not who has the biggest tyre advantage.

But if you would rather compare the two vehicles off road on 30" highway tyres then trust me I'm fine with that. ... ;)


Oh, you so should have thought of that earlier ..... I certainly didn't even when I mentioned putting a Deefer on 21 inch rims to make it more competitive on the road ..... ;)


End result ..... the Deefer would be **** at both .......

[ozscott]

Stop it...this thread is killing me. I might have a coronary laughing so much. It's brilliant!

Terry's original question should have been "which looks the coolest?" Then it would have been easy cause even D4 owners would concede the point and we could all go home.

Cheers

Cheers

[gghaggis]

Stop it...this thread is killing me. I might have a coronary laughing so much. It's brilliant!

Terry's original question should have been "which looks the coolest?" Then it would have been easy cause even D4 owners would concede the point and we could all go home.

Cheers

Cheers

C'mon - you know even then I wouldn't concede ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/118.jpg

[Steve223]

If you still reckon it is then how about this;
You bring your disco on what ever size tyres you want and ill bring my puma on 33s and rear locked and you can use all the "automatic" crap you want and see who gets through what tracks. Dont worry ill bring a snatch strap for you :p


Terry O. you may have to take the D3 out of retirement now, let's do this ... I will bring my D2 though and let's see how we all go, I have some tracks in the Watagans in mind [emoji51]

[rick130]

C'mon - you know even then I wouldn't concede ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/118.jpg


Naaa, fridge on wheels..... :D



(with tongue planted firmly in cheek as I usually use the "whitegoods on wheels" sobriquet for TLC's :angel:)

[1nando]

Terry O. you may have to take the D3 out of retirement now, let's do this ... I will bring my D2 though and let's see how we all go, I have some tracks in the Watagans in mind [emoji51]

Ps. Stefan your d2 is in a league of its own. 35s, twin locked and heavily modifeid drivetrain......dont think there would be many in this thread that could keep up with you ;)

[Celtoid]

You know the puma has the advantage becuase of its bigger tyre size.....thats becuase it was designed for a purpose. You engineered this thread to have the same size tyres to take away the pumas advantage.

You've actually given me a great idea;

How about a thread along the lines off:

"Pumas are currently in high demand and people are paying high prices for them. Considering a d4 is only 10k more on average over a newish puma is it worth paying the extra?
Is the d4 better off road compared to a puma......if you take out the d4s automatic trickery is it actually any good off road?"

You see if i take something away that clearly gives a vehicle a huge advantage then it isnt a fair comparison!

If you still reckon it is then how about this;
You bring your disco on what ever size tyres you want and ill bring my puma on 33s and rear locked and you can use all the "automatic" crap you want and see who gets through what tracks. Dont worry ill bring a snatch strap for you :p


Oh here we go again ......

It's pretty clear that a lot of learned LR drivers (which includes others outside the D4 faction ;) ) cannot figure why LR spend so much money on the best Traction Control/Stability Control ... etc, etc systems in the world and then accommodate a market that really does cater for the Mummy Run. I'm not being cheeky ..... it is a freakin enigma! I have no clue why that is.


However, the outcome is a car with brilliant systems, the toughest chassis, transmission, gearboxes, etc, etc that LR have ever built but it does come with some design limitations if you want to do 'rugged' 4WDing. I think it's been established that unmodified (either vehicle), the D4 has slightly less clearance in some areas (they are actually very 'clean' underneath ... unlike a Deefer), less body panel clearance and slightly less entry/exit angle clearance. The D4 has better blah, blah, blah ... (which there are shed loads of :D).


However .... the bloody thing has wheels and tyres (size) that are not designed for any decent off-roading (but actually do a lot better than you'd imagine). They do however make the car bloody safe and allow it to perform well on any formed surfaces .... and I mean really, really, really well. However, refer to start of thread ..... it's an enigma .... but it is what it is. A wheel and tyre change is not a massive concession is it? Let's get serious and drop the crap.


Talking about the crap, I can guarantee that if a comprehensive requirements activity was commissioned (maybe by an independent agency) to create a measurable comparison field ..... in other words .... a whole bunch of tracks that actually test the cars through a serious of conditions that have been 'accredited' as off-road .... there would be a whole bunch of certain people on this forum that would claim that 90% of them are "not REAL off-roading"!


It would be a friggin waste of time.


For every one of those scenarios there would be a counter. But I'm pretty certain when it got to the REAL Off-Roading categories the Deefer guys would be sweating and seriously concerned (like turning a tight corner going up a seriously steep hill.... LOL .... no electronic wizardry required for that ;)) ..... not in all areas of course, but because the D4 would do much better in certain areas that you would/could imagine or ever give it credit for .... not that you'd ever get them (Certain Deefer guys) to lie down ... so as I said .... it would be a waste of time. As soon as 'THEY' no longer considered it meeting their criteria .... they'd pop smoke again.


For sure some D4 owners would do the same but most would actually be pretty chuffed at the overall results ... and be pretty surprised. Most wouldn't even realise that their shopping trolley could even be in this comparison.


As I said ... pointless exercise ...


Oh BTW ... would one of the Deefer Drivers seriously answer this .... stock standard .... how does a Deefer compare to a JEEP Wrangler in your interpretation of REAL off-roading scenarios? Don't you dare ignore this question .... :-)


Oh and more crap .... the whole point of the exercise is to establish whether all the shiny, heavy, aesthetic and safety stuff (constraints I think you'd call them) can be really compensated for by 'Wizardry' .... not that stronger stuff and better reliability really comes into that category ...... like that one? :cool:


So talking about removing that for a fair comparison is BS ... mind you .... a D4 would then be lighter than a Deefer .... smaller brakes, bigger wheels .... HELL - YEAH .... let's try that......LOL!!! A D4 Stripped right down ..... LOL!!!

[1nando]

C'mon - you know even then I wouldn't concede ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/118.jpg

Thats a great looking rig Gordon. :thumbup:
We're here arguing like idiots......looking at that pic makes pretty proud to own a land rover. Theres something about the LR badge thats special.....probably the fact that i dont drive a toyota or a nissan and we're one of the smaller minoritys in the Australian 4wd scene.

[Celtoid]

C'mon - you know even then I wouldn't concede ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/118.jpg


And you know when you actually get one of these mags to cough up some cred on a Landrover, let alone a Disco .... LOL!!! The Toyo boys would be throwing themselves under their substandard barges .... LOL!!! :cool:

[MrLandy]

C'mon - you know even then I wouldn't concede ;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/118.jpg

Love the bread basket on top of the fridge and the photoshopped flying mud on the left! Or is all the mud photoshopped?! :p

[LandyAndy]

A tad rude MrLandy.
You ever had your vehicle featured in a 4x4 mag???? Only a few here can put their hand up for that.
Andrew

[Celtoid]

Love the bread basket on top of the fridge and the photoshopped flying mud on the left! Or is all the mud photoshopped?! :p


Oh, it's fitted to the car ... like chaff and flares on warplanes ...
You just press the button and Mud and Grass flies ....

[Celtoid]

A tad rude MrLandy.
You ever had your vehicle featured in a 4x4 mag???? Only a few here can put their hand up for that.
Andrew


Nah ..... I just think he's being a bit naughty .... desperation causes that .....
;)

[Disco Muppet]

Good grief, There's more infighting here than at a Toyota family Christmas where they argue over who gets to kiss the pretty cousin first....


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Celtoid]

Good grief, There's more infighting here than at a Toyota family Christmas where they argue over who gets to kiss the pretty cousin first....


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app


No there is not ... there have been plenty of kisses and hugs (maybe I should say handshakes) along the way. :D


Their Forums (Toyota) are bloodbaths apparently ..... and that's only around a colour change ....

[Disco Muppet]

In their defence, I don't think they can spell many words with more than four ****in' letters aye

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[gghaggis]

Love the bread basket on top of the fridge and the photoshopped flying mud on the left! Or is all the mud photoshopped?! :p

That's Telephone Lane in Baldivis, WA. Only fools and 4WD Action story-chasers try it when it's wet. They would have photoshopped mud out, so you could see the car 😅

[TerryO]

Terry O. you may have to take the D3 out of retirement now, let's do this ... I will bring my D2 though and let's see how we all go, I have some tracks in the Watagans in mind [emoji51]


It would be interesting to see how the D2 goes now on 35's, last time we went for a bit of a play at Jellore it only had 33's.

As you know I prefer rocks to mud,, anyway let's see what we can arrange before it gets to close to winter and it becomes to much of mud bath up here.

Maybe a couple of the more vocal expert goat poo carriers taking part in this thread would like to come along in their trusty work trucks and lead the way, I guess we could try to keep up in the Disco's. ... :p

That could be a bit of fun I reckon.

... ;)

[Steve223]

It would be interesting to see how the D2 goes now on 35's, last time we went for a bit of a play at Jellore it only had 33's.

As you know I prefer rocks to mud,, anyway let's see what we can arrange before it gets to close to winter and it becomes to much of mud bath up here.

Maybe a couple of the more vocal expert goat poo carriers taking part in this thread would like to come along in their trusty work trucks and lead the way, I guess we could try to keep up in the Disco's. ... :p

That could be a bit of fun I reckon.

... ;)


yes always rocks over mud, we could do Whitemans Lane in Watagans who is in Defender and Disco Drivers ???

[frantic]

Celtoid.
Wrangler stock is not better than equivalent defender. Your back to TerryO scenario of "Ohh to match a defender I've got to increase tyre Size by 10%" BUT you can't do the same"!
As to a stripped D4, without the special electronic traction control, stability, wide fat.body and love axle imitation suspension it would have same ability as a 2003-16 pajero.:D
A d1/2 is great offroad as.it's a rrc chassis and axles which in.turn is a stretched. Series.3 swb on coils with a.5 speed manual or auto.:D but again LR equipped it with small tyres as standard which means mods to match.

[ozscott]

Frantic the Wrangler Rubicon with sway bar disconnects operated from inside the cab and locking diffs is (it pains me) more competent offroad than a stock Defender. It cannot carry more than an adult and a lean cheese sandwich but that is a other matter. I dont like Jeep but there it is. Check out 4xOverland where he pits them together and uses disconnects but not diff locks and the Wrangler Rub is a fair way ahead.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Celtoid.
Wrangler stock is not better than equivalent defender. Your back to TerryO scenario of "Ohh to match a defender I've got to increase tyre Size by 10%" BUT you can't do the same"!
As to a stripped D4, without the special electronic traction control, stability, wide fat.body and love axle imitation suspension it would have same ability as a 2003-16 pajero.:D
A d1/2 is great offroad as.it's a rrc chassis and axles which in.turn is a stretched. Series.3 swb on coils with a.5 speed manual or auto.:D but again LR equipped it with small tyres as standard which means mods to match.


Wrong on the Wrangler front ..... They are woeful ..... actually dangerous on the road at times. Aren't very practical .... but do rough stuff real well. They also laugh at sand ....


On the stripped D4 .... I was taking the mick ..... however, take out the soundproofing, stereo, airbags, ABS ..... get it as close to a Deefer as possible ...... you've then got a much, much lighter vehicle....

[TerryO]

Scouse who is one of the senior Mods on this forum used to lead almost monthly day trips up around Lithgow, Jenolan etc for members several years ago before his Rangie died. He had a pretty much standard RRC and from memory he even had some old style skinny Michelin A/T' tyres fitted.

Where Scott could take his almost standard Rangie without fuss was often truly amazing to witness and he often out performed modified vehicles.
My point is while a old Rangie is still a good old thing there is something just as, if not more, important than machine capability and that is driver experience and skill and Scott often showed that he had off road driving skills by the spade load.

Unfortunately in this thread so far to date that is something that has been totally ignored as everyone focuses on how good their particular choice of vehicle is.

Having been off roading with a number of excellent drivers, who I freely admit are more skilled than me, I would put my money on a good skilled driver in a average vehicle over a heavily modded vehicle with a lesser driver nine times out of ten.


Anyway back to the thread. ... :angel:

[SBD4]

The marvel of the D3/4 is the breadth of the things they can do and the level to which they excel when doing them. Of course the Defender excels in its specialist area. If you want more than just a "truck" then you want a disco.;)

This is just for those that don't believe in the capability of the late model discos (too much uncontrollable power/torque, broken drive trains, shopping trolley yada yada yada) and I'm not implying a Defender can't do this. Plenty of controlled torque at low speed demonstrated here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEd4qdvN8_U

PS I hope you defender lads are wearing floaties along with that one arm tan because if you're not then you are going to drown along with your defender if you attempt to ford anything deeper than a kiddies wading pool.:p

[DiscoMick]

D3/4s are very capable, there's no doubt about that.

[ozscott]

Sbd4. I have seen that before. It shows well their capability. Cheers

[MrLandy]

A tad rude MrLandy.
You ever had your vehicle featured in a 4x4 mag???? Only a few here can put their hand up for that.
Andrew

All in the spirit of Land Rover camaraderie and the constant flow of jibes both ways in this frankly ridiculous but very enjoyable thread. No offence meant Andy. Clearly we all enjoy a bit of flying mud. :angel:
Cheers brother

[Tombie]

From observations of friends the Wrangler isn't that great on sand - for their size they are quite heavy (2t).

[Celtoid]

From observations of friends the Wrangler isn't that great on sand - for their size they are quite heavy (2t).


Oh, that's interesting.


A good mate of mine and his son are into competing heavily modified 4WDs in varying sizes and often go on beach 4WD holidays. His son's girlfriend has taken her (unmodified soft-top) Wrangler along on these trips quite a few times. My mate was saying that they have literally tried to get it bogged on numerous occasions and often failed. He spoke very highly of it. And we're talking Moreton and Fraser Is where the sand is very high silica content.


He's also commented on it's weakness on road, as another friend has concurred with in regards to his ..... that Wranglers drive horribly on the road (relatively) and can lull you into a false sense of security when it comes to corners .... and then things get ugly, very quickly.

[BMKal]

From observations of friends the Wrangler isn't that great on sand - for their size they are quite heavy (2t).

I have a mate with a well set up Wrangler in Perth. He regularly goes on camping and 4WD trips with my ex-boss, who has a D4 (previously had a D3, and then a couple of D2's before that).

They tell me that the D4 is regularly pulling the Wrangler out of sand bogs. ;)

[ozscott]

That's interesting about the sand. Cant understand it. They run high profile tyres and are not as heavy as a D2. They have good clearance although i dont know what distance is under the diffs. They have adequate torque and power and reasonable gearing...

What lets them down in sand. The D2 is a similair weight etc and with CDL locked and 31 in tyres they are a sand tractor.

Certainly on narly off road bits the Rubicon is very good.

Cheers

[AndyG]

That's Telephone Lane in Baldivis, WA. Only fools and 4WD Action story-chasers try it when it's wet. They would have photoshopped mud out, so you could see the car 😅

I'm glad I'm not paying for the track repairs

[BMKal]

And just to dispel the myth about only Defender drivers having beards .........

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/110.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

And I don't even know what a "latte" tastes like. Never tried one, and don't really know exactly what it is. Don't mind a decent cappuccino though. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/111.jpg

[LandyAndy]

And just to dispel the myth about only Defender drivers having beards .........

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/110.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

And I don't even know what a "latte" tastes like. Never tried one, and don't really know exactly what it is. Don't mind a decent cappuccino though. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/111.jpg

Is that a merkin Brian???
Andrew

[BMKal]

Is that a merkin Brian???
Andrew

I see you're still as jealous as ever.:p:p:p

Actually, I had to look that one up - never heard of a merkin before. Interestingly, the site I found explaining it all to me suggests that "merkins" are generally red in colour.

Just thought I'd show off the new t shirt as well. I suppose you'll be posting up a photo of yourself in your new shirt sometime soon - it should complement your leather pants nicely. ;)

[LandyAndy]

I didnt order one mate:(:(:(:( They only listed 2XL as their biggest,wouldnt stretch around my guts like that lycra gear you bought me:D:D:D:D:D
Andrew

[rick130]

After Brian's photo, it goes both ways.

This bloke drives a Deefer, and not one of those black 90 Tdci's beloved of the hipsters but an honest to goodness working 130. :o

He's partial to a piccolo latte and will only drink craft beer, prefers the art gallery to football and carried a bright orange Hermes purse as a wallet. (until lost about two weeks ago)

It's a broad church, this Land Rover ownership thingy. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/96.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/4h0vrbcof/)

[gghaggis]

After Brian's photo, it goes both ways.

This bloke drives a Deefer, and not one of those black 90 Tdci's beloved of the hipsters but an honest to goodness working 130. :o

He's partial to a piccolo latte and will only drink craft beer, prefers the art gallery to football and carried a bright orange Hermes purse as a wallet. (until lost about two weeks ago)

It's a broad church, this Land Rover ownership thingy. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/96.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/4h0vrbcof/)

Is that the dentist from the TV ad a few years ago? :angel:

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

Is that the dentist from the TV ad a few years ago? :angel:

Cheers,

Gordon


I reckon it can't be the dentist Gordon otherwise we would be looking at the back of his head, not his interesting coloured pants.


Anyway Rick old mate I have always thought of you as a honourary Disco owner and now you have proven that you deserve to be given that esteemed award. ... ;)

[Stuart02]

Unfortunately in this thread so far to date that is something that has been totally ignored as everyone focuses on how good their particular choice of vehicle is.



Anyway back to the thread. ... :angel:

There's been a few mentions of experienced vs unexperienced drivers in each and also the value of specific knowledge to get the best out of the D4. That's why they're both really fun and rewarding driving experiences in completely different ways. How could anyone choose?!!

[rick130]

I reckon it can't be the dentist Gordon otherwise we would be looking at the back of his head, not his interesting coloured pants.


Anyway Rick old mate I have always thought of you as a honourary Disco owner and now you have proven that you deserve to be given that esteemed award. ... ;)

Chino's Terry, chino's. ;)

and what can I say other than I probably won't be allowed back in the 90/110/130 forum now I've been bestowed an honorary Disco ownership, and anyway, who said that photo was of moi ? :angel:

and Ron will have coniptions with that altered spelling of honorary too. :p

[MrLandy]

Chino's Terry, chino's. ;)

and what can I say other than I probably won't be allowed back in the 90/110/130 forum now I've been bestowed an honorary Disco ownership, and anyway, who said that photo was of moi ? :angel:

and Ron will have coniptions with that altered spelling of honorary too. :p

Hey Rick, I'll be wearing my city slicker maroon jeans tomorrow in Defender style solidarity, but there's no way I'm drinking a piccolo cafe latte! Hard core cafe doppio only. No sugar. 👍

[Celtoid]

Chino's Terry, chino's. ;)

and what can I say other than I probably won't be allowed back in the 90/110/130 forum now I've been bestowed an honorary Disco ownership, and anyway, who said that photo was of moi ? :angel:

and Ron will have coniptions with that altered spelling of honorary too. :p


The fact that you actually know the word 'coniption' indicates you should be driving at least a Disco ...... the fact you misspelled it .... oh, well ;)


LOL!!!

[ozscott]

http://youtu.be/TsY5umMfUxg

[ozscott]

This is a limited edition Wrangler

[rick130]

Hey Rick, I'll be wearing my city slicker maroon jeans tomorrow in Defender style solidarity, but there's no way I'm drinking a piccolo cafe latte! Hard core cafe doppio only. No sugar. 👍

:D
Although the closest I'll get to a doppio is a macchiato.
I can't do double shots anymore, it'd blow the top off my head.

[rick130]

The fact that you actually know the word 'coniption' indicates you should be driving at least a Disco ...... the fact you misspelled it .... oh, well ;)


LOL!!!

One can be erudite without necessarily being good at spelling 'em. :D

[Celtoid]

One can be erudite without necessarily being good at spelling 'em. :D


Yeah, me no spell so well either 😃.

Thank god for spell check!

[MrLandy]

... through extensive and creative erudition I discovered that 'hissy fit' may be a more apt expression for the grand conniption of Discovery ownership. :p which makes it perfectly clear that the more beguilingly serene Defender is more capable off road.

[SBD4]

... through extensive and creative erudition I discovered that 'hissy fit' may be a more apt expression for the grand conniption of Discovery ownership. :p which makes it perfectly clear that the more beguilingly serene Defender is more capable off road.

=oxymoron!

[MrLandy]

=oxymoron!

Not in comparison to the frenzied chatter of a D4's off-road electrickery! :p

[TerryO]

yes always rocks over mud, we could do Whitemans Lane in Watagans who is in Defender and Disco Drivers ???


Steve we might have to keep it as just Disco's for this day trip as since you invited our once vocal friends with Defenders to come along they have all mysteriously gone a bit silent for some unknown reason. ... :angel:

So Manic, 1nando and Frantic it's a Disco only trip now so you all can come back to discuss the finer points of why your Defenders are so superior to Disco's as off roaders if you like, no pressure. ... ;)

[manic]

...

The threads done I rekon.

I must have missed the details for the disco vs defender offroad outing. When?

Watagans a bit far far on short notice. Hopefully there are some pumas up that way that can help u out with recoveries.

[TerryO]

Geeze that was quick Manic, good to see your back. Actually if you have a read above you will see Steve has said where the trip would be it was only a case of those wanting to come along showing interest and then working out a date mutually workable ... ;)

[MrLandy]

...so, no mods for Watagans sojourn/comparo? No lifts, no lockers, no muddies, no winches?

[ozscott]

Im in Brissy. Pity. Defender owners get there and crack on!

Cheers

[MR LR]

yes always rocks over mud, we could do Whitemans Lane in Watagans who is in Defender and Disco Drivers ???
Can I bring the 4 door to show you all up? :p :wasntme:

It can even wear it's old 205R16 boots :P

[1nando]

I love a day out. Workout a date with plenty of notice and ill try me best. At the moment im battling a loosing battle against time. My mrs and i are 17weeks pregnant with our first baby (very exciting amd scary all at the same time) and im trying to renovate the house before the baby comes in july.

[vnx205]

Here is an interesting question. :angel:

It is obvious that quite a number of Defender drivers are intelligent enough, curious enough or have sufficiently eclectic tastes to find this thread in the D3/D4/RRS section of the forum.

If this question had originally been posted in the Defender section of the forum, how many D3.D4/RRS drivers would have been prepared to mingle with the LR owners who typically are seen as having beards and having grease under their fingernails?

Would this thread have been much shorter if it had been posted in a section that D3/D4 RRS drivers probably consider infradig?

[strangy]

And just to dispel the myth about only Defender drivers having beards ......... And I don't even know what a "latte" tastes like. Never tried one, and don't really know exactly what it is. Don't mind a decent cappuccino though.

How did you get the "ginger" out of it?😀

[JamesH]

For what it's worth I sold my 110 after many deliriously happy years because I'm not sure why, but I think I wanted a car with a better stereo and Bluetooth hands free telephoning. Also decided I wanted an auto transmission for round town. In short I regressed into an inferior specimen.


The move to the D4 has been great and I've been delighted with the car. It's made life so much easier and I'm eating up the kays in comfort. Even so I am under no illusion that I have stepped up to a D4. The only step from a Defender is downwards. It's the car they drive in heaven.


Now, where is my latte. I need a boost to get me to Pimms O'Clock

[Marty110]

I love a day out. Workout a date with plenty of notice and ill try me best. At the moment im battling a loosing battle against time. My mrs and i are 17weeks pregnant with our first baby (very exciting amd scary all at the same time) and im trying to renovate the house before the baby comes in july.
congratulations mate, an awesome change in your life coming your way with your first child let me tell you. Never did stop us from 4 wheeling though......

[1nando]

congratulations mate, an awesome change in your life coming your way with your first child let me tell you. Never did stop us from 4 wheeling though......

Thanks mate, its a world of emotions at the moment and i can't wait to be a dad. In case anyone actually cares we are having a girl, very happy.

It wont stop me 4wding, trust me on that one
Only probelm i have is that we recently purchased our house and it is barley liveable (we could not afford anything better in our area)... I work from 5.30am in the morning until 5pm and then have been going to the house for a couple of hours with my old man knocking out walls, have the ceilings to do and a new kitchen and bathroom to start......i dont want my mrs and new born around the dust so the little down time i have im putting towrads the house....sorry guys but this at the moment is my priority. I never shy away from a contest and am keen as, dont know if the mrs would be so keen on me doing it with a house looking like a war zone at the moment.
Soon as its finished i think a day trip to lithgow would be great :)

[scarry]

...so, no mods for Watagans sojourn/comparo? No lifts, no lockers, no muddies, no winches?

Hard to find a Deefer without all that stuff hanging off it.:o

But i suppose they need it to keep up with the stock D3's and 4's:p:D;)

[AndyG]

After Brian's photo, it goes both ways.

This bloke drives a Deefer, and not one of those black 90 Tdci's beloved of the hipsters but an honest to goodness working 130. :o

He's partial to a piccolo latte and will only drink craft beer, prefers the art gallery to football and carried a bright orange Hermes purse as a wallet. (until lost about two weeks ago)

It's a broad church, this Land Rover ownership thingy. :D

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/96.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/4h0vrbcof/)

I thought that was what Freelanders were for

[dullbird]

Here is an interesting question. :angel:

It is obvious that quite a number of Defender drivers are intelligent enough, curious enough or have sufficiently eclectic tastes to find this thread in the D3/D4/RRS section of the forum.

If this question had originally been posted in the Defender section of the forum, how many D3.D4/RRS drivers would have been prepared to mingle with the LR owners who typically are seen as having beards and having grease under their fingernails?

Would this thread have been much shorter if it had been posted in a section that D3/D4 RRS drivers probably consider infradig?


There was a post put in the defender section by a D4 owner regarding the T shirt that has come available i think it said something like even defender drivers need a hero and it had a disco on the front.

Perhaps there wasn't enough bites [emoji6]

[Meken]

I love a day out. Workout a date with plenty of notice and ill try me best. At the moment im battling a loosing battle against time. My mrs and i are 17weeks pregnant with our first baby (very exciting amd scary all at the same time) and im trying to renovate the house before the baby comes in july.


Give in now - go have fun ... The Reno won't be finished anyway so you may as well have some fun leading up to the pain ;)

[BMKal]

There was a post put in the defender section by a D4 owner regarding the T shirt that has come available i think it said something like even defender drivers need a hero and it had a disco on the front.

Perhaps there wasn't enough bites [emoji6]

You mean this T shirt Lou ........................ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/93.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/94.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/95.jpg (http://postimage.org/)

[BMKal]

How did you get the "ginger" out of it?😀

Haha ................. I think the 5 years we lived in Alice Springs before moving to Kalgoorlie bleached all the colour out of it. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/92.jpg

[Jimmy Salsa]

The threads done I rekon.


Oh I don't know...
There's one Defender and RRS concurrent owner who has refrained from weighing in until now as it took me this long to read through all the bulls&*t that's been posted so far :twisted:

I was going to say that perhaps only those who have actually driven both vehicles in various on-road and off-road situations for a minimum of 10 hours in each vehicle should be allowed to comment but that would probably mean most people would be out of the discussion.

Without that kind of daily comparison, it a bit like trying to review another mans wife's sexual prowess based only on what I've read about her in the online reviews and from her ad on craigslist.

The problem with most of the responses i've actually bothered reading is that they are really only a defence of their own preferences.

One of my biggest beef with Landy owners in general is that they have their tongues so far up LR's backside that they can't actually see that defending Land Rover's horrible reputation for build quality and reliability, and in particular LRA's deplorable record on warranty support is actually doing yourselves a huge disservice.

You won't get better cars by doing that. It's a numbers game for LRA. IF they believe they can get out of it more cheaply by screwing a few people over because the majority won't scream loudly and publicly enough to make them stop and think about it, they will without hesitation or any consideration of what is a reasonable and fair response, screw them over. They are not the only manufacturer to do so, but as Landy owners, they are the Marque that concerns us here.

For what it's worth, here's my take on the debate.

Defender
Rubbish on the sand
Untenably noisy, even on smooth roads
Worst dust sealing of any modern vehicle
Bone rattlingly uncomfortable in almost any off-road situation
Worst passenger viewing position of any car made since 1923
Only good for midgets under 5'8" who weigh less than 85kg's
Less creature comforts and features than a 1964 falcon
Stereo (what stereo)
Rubbish air con system
Turning circle of a small semi trailer
Side mirrors that should never have passed a road safety test - can't see out of them at speeds of more than 10kms per hour due to vibrations
Myriad water leaks that dealers will tell you is just par for the course with a Defender (I've seen the army's technical bulletin on how to remedy water leaks in the defender and it's 42 typed pages long #nobulls&%t.)

Worst of all though, LR have continued to promote the off-road heritage of the product whilst continually weakening the components and by definition, it's go anywhere capabilities.


RRS 2007
We've belted the living day lights out of this car for 6 years and only managed to break:
1 x steering rack (design fault)
2 x CV's
1 x rear half shaft

It drives better than most modern cars on-road and is almost as comfortable off-road.

What is even more surprising is the price difference in the second hand market. You get 10 times the car for about the same price for the same age vehicle when you by the RRS/D3/D4.

If you want the best cross-ver vehicle for on-road, off-road, touring and serious stuff, you won't find a better vehicle than the RRS/D3/D4 (Sorry Stefan - the D2 is just too antiquated to rate a mention in this field)

[ozscott]

...hahahha....hahahha...Defender rubbish on sand.....hahaha

...
Seriously deluded. What have you been doing when driving the thing?

I have driven a 110 County 3500 v8 with cheese cutter tyres towing 2 tonns through deep sand. It was a doddle. I have seen Defenders making light work of the most powdery of sand when towing.

Sorry cant help myself but get involved at this point. there are just some posts i cant leave alone.

As for the d2 being to antiquated lets see any RRS against a D2 off road any day....seriously...

Cheers

[SimmAus]

You mean this T shirt Lou ........................ [/URL] [URL="http://postimage.org/"] (http://postimage.org/)

Nice...I went Green....

[dullbird]

Yes thats the one..... :)


I have too say the defender lacks in a lot of departments but one thing it's not and that is in my opinion crap in sand if you're getting bogged in sand in a defender its your driving and or your car preparation for the surface ie tyre pressure.

I believe 100% there are people on this forum that i know that could take a defender to any sandy situation other than quick sand and drive a defender through it.

I couldn't because i don't have that skill but i believe its the driver that lets the defender down in sandy situations not the other way around.

[Disco Muppet]

For what it's worth, here's my take on the debate.

Defender
Rubbish on the sand
Untenably noisy, even on smooth roads
Worst dust sealing of any modern vehicle
Bone rattlingly uncomfortable in almost any off-road situation
Worst passenger viewing position of any car made since 1923
Only good for midgets under 5'8" who weigh less than 85kg's
Less creature comforts and features than a 1964 falcon
Stereo (what stereo)
Rubbish air con system
Turning circle of a small semi trailer
Side mirrors that should never have passed a road safety test - can't see out of them at speeds of more than 10kms per hour due to vibrations
Myriad water leaks that dealers will tell you is just par for the course with a Defender (I've seen the army's technical bulletin on how to remedy water leaks in the defender and it's 42 typed pages long #nobulls&%t.)

Worst of all though, LR have continued to promote the off-road heritage of the product whilst continually weakening the components and by definition, it's go anywhere capabilities.


So why'd you buy another one? :p

[ozscott]

So why'd you buy another one? [emoji14]
Cause they are ****. Why not.

Cheers

[scarry]

...hahahha....hahahha...Defender rubbish on sand.....hahaha

...
Seriously deluded

I have driven a 110 County 3500 v8 with cheese cutter tyres towing 2 tonns through deep sand. It was a doddle. I have seen Defenders making light work of the most powdery of sand when towing.

Sorry cant help myself but get involved at this point. there are just some posts i cant leave alone.

As for the d2 being to antiquated lets see any RRS against a D2 off road any day....seriously...

Cheers

The Puma in my sig is fantastic in sand.
It just seems to trundle through that real soft stuff.
Without the TC working it does do it a bit tougher.

But there are some on here that recon the TC never comes on in sand,but i have found in the real soft stuff it will come in occasionally.

[ozscott]

Yep scarry my D2 TC will come on occasionally in really soft powdery stuff especially when towing (with centre diff locked) and it works really well.

Cheers

[scarry]

Yep scarry my D2 TC will come on occasionally in really soft powdery stuff especially when towing (with centre diff locked) and it works really well.

Cheers

As did my D2a,no problems at all.

With the D4 one thing i miss is the TC noise..

[ozscott]

Haha...yes they are a quiet machine.

Cheers

[rick130]

I thought that was what Freelanders were for


Personally from an observational POV I would have said an Evoque, or maybe even a Disco Sport. :angel:

[rick130]

There was a post put in the defender section by a D4 owner regarding the T shirt that has come available i think it said something like even defender drivers need a hero and it had a disco on the front.

Perhaps there wasn't enough bites [emoji6]

Lou, IIRC that poster was encouraged to try harder, so he has. ;)

[rick130]

Defender

Bone rattlingly uncomfortable in almost any off-road situation

Only good for midgets under 5'8" who weigh less than 85kg's


Hmm, buggered if I know why I find it comfortable to sit in and drive it for hours on end considering my inseam is something like 37" ?

And 'bone rattling uncomfortable' off road ?
Seriously ?
I really do think the springs are too stiff but that's easily fixed.
Anyone that's driven a late eighties 110 and then a Tdi on is disappointed with the ride, the old 110's ride like an old RRC, nice and soft but the new ones aren't bad and much better than the opposition and not bone rattlingly uncomfortable.

Methinks it's teaspoon of cement time. :D




Side mirrors that should never have passed a road safety test - can't see out of them at speeds of more than 10kms per hour due to vibrations


I've read this by various people a few times over the years.

Ever heard of tyre balancing people ? :D



Worst of all though, LR have continued to promote the off-road heritage of the product whilst continually weakening the components and by definition, it's go anywhere capabilities.


Unfortunately true, as brought up already in this thread. :(

[MrLandy]

Hard to find a Deefer without all that stuff hanging off it.:o

I've got two.

[MrLandy]

The problem with most of the responses i've actually bothered reading is that they are really only a defence of their own preferences.

If you want the best cross-ver vehicle for on-road, off-road, touring and serious stuff, you won't find a better vehicle than the RRS/D3/D4

Pffftttt.

[LandyAndy]

I guess we should be holding a wake,Defenders are now extinct,you cant have a new one off the production line.
Until they shift the plant to India and start building them for third world countries:wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::wasntme::wasn tme:
Andrew

[scarry]

I've got two.

You missed the rest of the post;)

[dullbird]

I cant wait to purchase a Discovery, I'm a discovery driver at heart.

I will probably buy one in a couple of years when i sell my rare defender for a motza!!! [emoji39]

Actually i dont think i will sell my defender i will probably just buy a secondhand disco as the resale drops fairly quickly because everyone has one :p

[MrLandy]

Hmm, buggered if I know why I find it comfortable to sit in and drive it for hours on end considering my inseam is something like 37" ?

I'm 6foot 100kg and I love cuddling up to the B pillar. There's no better driving position than a Defender. Get some Mulgo seat rails for $80 if you're worried.


And 'bone rattling uncomfortable' off road ?
Seriously ?

Agreed. This is Rubbish. Bone rattling is anything with leaf springs.


Older Defenders are noisy, yes. But Pumas are perfectly quiet enough, have a great stereo and decent aircon. Love it.

[MrLandy]

You missed the rest of the post;)

Nah, I didn't. :cool:

[LandyAndy]

I cant wait to purchase a Discovery, I'm a discovery driver at heart.

I will probably buy one in a couple of years when i sell my rare defender for a motza!!! [emoji39]

Actually i dont think i will sell my defender i will probably just buy a secondhand disco as the resale drops fairly quickly because everyone has one :p

There was a motoring article not that long ago saying Range Rovers and Discoveries had an excellent resale value due to being a premium brand,sadly Defenders wernt mentioned in the same article.
Andrew

[MrLandy]

There was a motoring article not that long ago saying Range Rovers and Discoveries had an excellent resale value due to being a premium brand,sadly Defenders wernt mentioned in the same article.
Andrew

What vehicle, other than Defender, has INCREASED in value?

I could sell my Defender now for $20K more than I paid new in 2014.

[ozscott]

Landy Andy the real world experience is that Deefers hold their value as a percentage of purchase price when new better than Discos. I have noticed that for years.

Cheers

[dullbird]

Defenders weren't rare then Andy. I will screen shot this and we will revisit it in a couple of years hey we will see how much my 130 is worth in comparison to your D4... Remember the D5 is on its way out :p ;)

[LandyAndy]

You do that sweetheart.
How many ks you done at the moment????
PS,it was only weeks ago.
Andrew

[MrLandy]

What vehicle, other than Defender, has INCREASED in value?

I could sell my Defender now for $20K more than I paid new in 2014.

...why don't I? Because I'm mad and because I wouldn't want to drive anything else.

[LandyAndy]

What vehicle, other than Defender, has INCREASED in value?

I could sell my Defender now for $20K more than I paid new in 2014.

DREAMING.
Andrew

[dullbird]

You do that sweetheart.
How many ks you done at the moment????
PS,it was only weeks ago.
Andrew


Oh wow Andy "sweatheart" did I hit a nerve old chap :D :lol2:

I have less than 10,000 on the car

Is there a reason your enquiring after my k's?


because Andy if you didn't know that defenders have historically held there resale value well then I'm not really sure what cupboard you have been hiding in because everyone knows that. Hahahahah

Please take the post as it was intended light hearted ribbing. :)

[dullbird]

What vehicle, other than Defender, has INCREASED in value?

I could sell my Defender now for $20K more than I paid new in 2014.


For what its worth i think your dreaming too hahahahha

They hold their value well but not that well, well not yet anyway. Unless of course you purchased a little under retail with a good deal.

Maybe in a couple of years when people aren't selling them and people are still wanting them this claim would be taken a little more seriously :D

Now we just look a bit desperate hahahahha

[scarry]

What vehicle, other than Defender, has INCREASED in value?

I could sell my Defender now for $20K more than I paid new in 2014.

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

What, $20k in a few months..

Well you better sell it NOW

Once the new model comes out,as with most vehicles,the value will more than likely plummet.

Deefers have always held their value better than Discos,but they don't go up in value,if they did,it wouldn't be 30 to 40%

Ditto for Holdens and Fords,Holdens have generally had much better resale value than Fords,and no we are not talking about the older racing models,just the standard road going models of the last 20yrs or so.

[scarry]

Older Defenders are noisy, yes. But Pumas are perfectly quiet enough, have a great stereo and decent aircon. Love it.

Obviously haven't spent much time in a D4,and yes i have both in the shed.;)

[MrLandy]

Not many low km Defenders under $65K right now

[Celtoid]

"I was going to say that perhaps only those who have actually driven both vehicles in various on-road and off-road situations for a minimum of 10 hours in each vehicle should be allowed to comment but that would probably mean most people would be out of the discussion.

Without that kind of daily comparison, it a bit like trying to review another mans wife's sexual prowess based only on what I've read about her in the online reviews and from her ad on craigslist. "



Mate .... I'm Ex Military and you know there are few shrinking violets there but that is probably not the best example you could have used!

[Celtoid]

...hahahha....hahahha...Defender rubbish on sand.....hahaha

...
Seriously deluded. What have you been doing when driving the thing?

I have driven a 110 County 3500 v8 with cheese cutter tyres towing 2 tonns through deep sand. It was a doddle. I have seen Defenders making light work of the most powdery of sand when towing.

Sorry cant help myself but get involved at this point. there are just some posts i cant leave alone.

As for the d2 being to antiquated lets see any RRS against a D2 off road any day....seriously...

Cheers

I agree on the sand issue mate.


I'm a D4 driver..... a Deefer struggling in sand?..... hardly friggin likely ....


Driven them for years in military spec and seen them (civilian versions) plenty of times on some of the softest sand around ..... no issue!

[tact]

"I was going to say that perhaps only those who have actually driven both vehicles in various on-road and off-road situations for a minimum of 10 hours in each vehicle should be allowed to comment but that would probably mean most people would be out of the discussion.

Without that kind of daily comparison, it a bit like trying to review another mans wife's sexual prowess based only on what I've read about her in the online reviews and from her ad on craigslist. "



Mate .... I'm Ex Military and you know there are few shrinking violets there but that is probably not the best example you could have used!

But reposting it in bold red restores decorum and balance just nicely. ;)

[Celtoid]

...hahahha....hahahha...Defender rubbish on sand.....hahaha

...
Seriously deluded. What have you been doing when driving the thing?

I have driven a 110 County 3500 v8 with cheese cutter tyres towing 2 tonns through deep sand. It was a doddle. I have seen Defenders making light work of the most powdery of sand when towing.

Sorry cant help myself but get involved at this point. there are just some posts i cant leave alone.

As for the d2 being to antiquated lets see any RRS against a D2 off road any day....seriously...

Cheers


Spot on, on all of the above .... the bit in red will probably embarrass you .... just saying.

[Celtoid]

But reposting it in bold red restores decorum and balance just nicely. ;)


Mmmm ... what colour is correct for that?

[tact]

Mmmm ... what colour is correct for that?

You nailed it...

[Celtoid]

As did my D2a,no problems at all.

With the D4 one thing i miss is the TC noise..


Are you serious ... ?


When the TC comes on in a D4 it's very obvious (can't comment on a Deefer with TC ... never driven one that hi-tech) .... oh I get it .... it's (D4) so good at doing things it never comes on?


Sorry, was that tongue in cheek?


That's actually a serious question.

[Celtoid]

Defenders weren't rare then Andy. I will screen shot this and we will revisit it in a couple of years hey we will see how much my 130 is worth in comparison to your D4... Remember the D5 is on its way out :p ;)


My HJ LE Monaro (GTS) was next to worthless in it's day ... it would now attract reasonable coin ...... 40+ years later (it took that long) ..... and there were a lot less of those. ;)

[Celtoid]

You nailed it...


Maybe something camouflaged, grey or invisible ....

[dullbird]

My HJ LE Monaro (GTS) was next to worthless in it's day ... it would now attract reasonable coin ...... 40+ years later (it took that long) ..... and there were a lot less of those. ;)

Sm

Series 1s fetch good money especially in the united states. In fact most series vehicles fetch good money in the states.

I have no doubts whats so ever my defender will be worth a bit a few years time providing its looked after well is not modified to the hilt and no one smashes in to it in the mean time.
I'm not talking american muscle car money or Mercedes e class money but it will be worth something

I believe even more so because its a 130.

Only a couple of months ago one guy had been trying to buy a 130 and had not been able to find one he may have one now but he had been searching for ages and people were just not selling them.
As i said when people cant find what they want they will often pay good money if they want it bad enough :)

[Stuart02]

My HJ LE Monaro (GTS) was next to worthless in it's day ... it would now attract reasonable coin ...... 40+ years later (it took that long) ..... and there were a lot less of those. ;)

There couldn't be any doubt that Defenders will be collectible in the same way VW Combi vans are - there were hundreds of thousands kicking around in their day. Whether they actually appreciate in value... hmmm! They sure hold their value scarily well.

It's going to get harder and harder simply to keep D4 and L320s on the road compared to keeping Deefers going, which won't endear the former to the collectors and back yard restorers (whom we all know tend to have more time than money if they've got any of either!!).

[TerryO]

It will be interesting to see what LR does with the new Defender, if they get it right and also include models like a 130 then present ones may or may not be desirable in the future.

I have said it before I look forward to seeing what the new Defender really is like and what variations it comes in as it might be our next new LR.
It's hard to imagine that it won't come in a decent sized crew cab given the number of them sold around the globe now, so let's wait and see if the present rattlers are worth anything in a couple of years time. Those expecting to make money on their Defenders better hope that LR get the new generation wrong or I reckon you will be pretty much stuffed if they get it right and you may in the future regret you did not sell yours now while suckers (sorry collectors) were paying way above normal market prices for secondhand ones.

Just saying! ... ;)

[TerryO]

There couldn't be any doubt that Defenders will be collectible in the same way VW Combi vans are - there were hundreds of thousands kicking around in their day. Whether they actually appreciate in value... hmmm! They sure hold their value scarily well.

It's going to get harder and harder simply to keep D4 and L320s on the road compared to keeping Deefers going, which won't endear the former to the collectors and back yard restorers (whom we all know tend to have more time than money if they've got any of either!!).


It's hard to speculate with any accuracy what will or won't be truly collectible in the future and by collectable I don't mean collectable like a Morris 1000 is, rather collectable like a split windscreen Kombi is. There are plenty of other later model Kombi's not worth bugger all, just because it's a Kombi that doesn't mean it's automatically collectable.

Something to consider for those expecting their present pride and joys will be worth big bucks in the future is usually most collectable vehicles often only come into their own that far down the track that most of their original owners are now eating food through a straw in a old folks home or pushing up Daisy's, just like most original Series 1 Landy owners are now.

Another thing is in the vast majority of cases for a mass produced vehicle to become collectable it has to go through a stage where it's worth nothing and most end up in the wreckers or left to rot out in a field. Once the number has dropped down to being ralatively rear then there is a chance that they may and it's only a may end up collectable down the track.

My advice for what it is worth and probably that is not much, is just enjoy your preferred vehicle of choice now and use it for what you bought it for and if one day it's worth a serious bob then that is bonus.

[Meken]

Not many low km Defenders under $65K right now


That's exactly where this thread started - you are paying near as much for a deefer truck as for a disco

[TerryO]

That's exactly where this thread started - you are paying near as much for a deefer truck as for a disco

Thank you Meken, I have been patiently waiting for someone to bring this up given early on some said my comment about this was incorrect.

[dullbird]

That's exactly where this thread started - you are paying near as much for a deefer truck as for a disco


Yes you are but I also believe that as the years go buy the defender will hold its value better as been proven time and time again between defenders and discos over the years.

Im glad i got mine and I have no plans to sell it. And even with the new defender coming out i still believe it will hold its value and demand.
Because there are people out there that still crave the more basic car with a few mod cons.

Im also very excited about the new defender. I have always said to Ian after I sold my disco to make way for the defender if we ever get a new car its my turn and it will be a disco

However as the defender will be following along the lines of the disco platform i could be swayed that way again but it better be good.

I love the defender, I love its look, i love its character, I love its interchangeability, I live its following I love the memories it has given me to date. The car just puts a smile on your face every time you drive it.
But if I had the money I would also have a D4 it would be my car of choice to drive around all the time.

[TerryO]

I love the defender, I love its look, i love its character, I love its interchangeability, I live its following I love the memories it has given me to date. The car just puts a smile on your face every time you drive it.
But if I had the money I would also have a D4 it would be my car of choice to drive around all the time.

So it sounds like both Defender and Disco owners have permagrins because of the vehicles they choose to own and drive. ... ;)

[dullbird]

Yes but I'm not sure i would go as far to say i get out of it stumble around with a speech impediment :D hahahahha

[scarry]

Not many low km Defenders under $65K right now

You can put any price on anything,but how many are actually selling at that sort of price?

It will also be interesting to see what happens in 12 months time when the big rush disappears,and people move on.

My thoughts are the next Disco will be even more upmarket than the present vehicle,which will push many people into the new Defender market,which will be similar market to a D1 /2 in its day.And also have utility type variants as well.

As i have said for a while a base model family wagon is needed in the range.

[MrLandy]

That's exactly where this thread started - you are paying near as much for a deefer truck as for a disco

Not really. The thread is about off road capability. Then it became about money like everything does these days. I will be surprised if older defenders increase in value over their new purchase price. But right now, newer Defenders prices are rising. Who knows for how long. BUT if I sold mine now for a profit, i wouldn't be able to drive it! So in the end (and the beginning) it's not about money.

[rick130]

I love the defender, I love its look, i love its character, I love its interchangeability, I live its following I love the memories it has given me to date. The car just puts a smile on your face every time you drive it.


This.

There is no need to rationalise or justify with 'logic', Lou has honestly encapsulated what it means to be a 90/110/130 owner and driver.

:D

[MrLandy]

This.

There is no need to rationalise or justify with 'logic', Lou has honestly encapsulated what it means to be a 90/110/130 owner and driver.

:D

Exactly.

[Steve223]

For what it's worth, here's my take on the debate.

Defender
Rubbish on the sand
Untenably noisy, even on smooth roads
Worst dust sealing of any modern vehicle
Bone rattlingly uncomfortable in almost any off-road situation
Worst passenger viewing position of any car made since 1923
Only good for midgets under 5'8" who weigh less than 85kg's
Less creature comforts and features than a 1964 falcon
Stereo (what stereo)
Rubbish air con system
Turning circle of a small semi trailer
Side mirrors that should never have passed a road safety test - can't see out of them at speeds of more than 10kms per hour due to vibrations
Myriad water leaks that dealers will tell you is just par for the course with a Defender (I've seen the army's technical bulletin on how to remedy water leaks in the defender and it's 42 typed pages long #nobulls&%t.)

Worst of all though, LR have continued to promote the off-road heritage of the product whilst continually weakening the components and by definition, it's go anywhere capabilities.




If you want the best cross-ver vehicle for on-road, off-road, touring and serious stuff, you won't find a better vehicle than the RRS/D3/D4 (Sorry Stefan - the D2 is just too antiquated to rate a mention in this field)


Hm most things are spot on but I disagree with a couple of things:

Defender
Rubbish on the sand

not my experience at all, from all the trucks we had in our group or we meet on the Simpson Crossing my Defer did it the easiest....

Untenably noisy, even on smooth roads
yes
Worst dust sealing of any modern vehicle
what sealing???
Bone rattlingly uncomfortable in almost any off-road situation

would disagree with a recaro for a tall guy like me its a excellent seating position rather truck like rather then lying down low

Worst passenger viewing position of any car made since 1923
Only good for midgets under 5'8" who weigh less than 85kg's
Rather the opposite for me with a Recaro and spacers see above
Less creature comforts and features than a 1964 falcon
YEP
Stereo (what stereo)
YEP
Rubbish air con system
could be better I agree
Turning circle of a small semi trailer
Still better then a patrol with adjusted steering stops
Side mirrors that should never have passed a road safety test - can't see out of them at speeds of more than 10kms per hour due to vibrations
YEP
Myriad water leaks that dealers will tell you is just par for the course with a Defender (I've seen the army's technical bulletin on how to remedy water leaks in the defender and it's 42 typed pages long #nobulls&%t.)
YEP but can be fixed my one leaks rarely

[chuck]

I know would definitely prefer to be in the D4 on the long haul to those iconic tracks.

Some other interesting comparisons

In South Africa if we were to compare standard D4 with Defender then the D4 limitations have been removed.
17' wheels are available on SA Discoveries.
SA have started to specify D4's to cope with the loss of the Defender until the new one comes out i.e. 155 kw V6 diesel 8 speed, coil springs, 17 in wheels, matt black wheel arches etc.

It is Landrover Australia that has stuck us with the 19" wheel problem it how they specify what gets delivered into Australia.

I am amazed that Landrover Australia do not offer a more flexible ordering platform for example how any of you would have specified 17" wheels as an option if you could.

[AndyG]

Different brake pack with 17 Inch?

[AndyG]

Land Rover Defender loved by drivers from the Queen to James Bond ceases production | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418186/The-final-mile-Land-Rover-Defender-iconic-vehicle-loved-drivers-Queen-James-Bond-ceases-production-Friday.html?ito=social-facebook)

Perhaps the Disco fraternity can educate us with some pictures similar to the attached, anything involving flood rescue, Marines, Afghanistan, Lions, etc, i think they all qualify as serious off road use :p Maccas drive thru does not count.

[chuck]

Andy G

I would suggest that most of those photos are not in the Defenders best interests.

The only exception would be the military vehicles and they are not Defenders per say.:p

[SBD4]

Land Rover Defender loved by drivers from the Queen to James Bond ceases production | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418186/The-final-mile-Land-Rover-Defender-iconic-vehicle-loved-drivers-Queen-James-Bond-ceases-production-Friday.html?ito=social-facebook)

Perhaps the Disco fraternity can educate us with some pictures similar to the attached, anything involving flood rescue, Marines, Afghanistan, Lions, etc, i think they all qualify as serious off road use :p Maccas drive thru does not count.

I love the misprint on one of the captions (or was it :o) :D:D:D

A 1950 Series 1 Land Rover on show at the Royal Horticultural Hall in central London - the Discovery will cease production on Friday

[AndyG]

Andy G

I would suggest that most of those photos are not in the Defenders best interests.

The only exception would be the military vehicles and they are not Defenders per say.:p

I consider them closely related, same mother, different fathers,:confused::angel:
But some interesting pics

[MrLandy]

Land Rover Defender loved by drivers from the Queen to James Bond ceases production | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418186/The-final-mile-Land-Rover-Defender-iconic-vehicle-loved-drivers-Queen-James-Bond-ceases-production-Friday.html?ito=social-facebook)

Perhaps the Disco fraternity can educate us with some pictures similar to the attached, anything involving flood rescue, Marines, Afghanistan, Lions, etc, i think they all qualify as serious off road use :p Maccas drive thru does not count.

:Rolling:👍

[TerryO]

Different brake pack with 17 Inch?

its not hard to put 17's on a 3.0 litre D4. You just fit the 2.7 D3 rotors and callipers. It all just bolts on easy. Several Aulro members have done this already, are they as good the 3.0 brakes, no but considering in the D3 engine range the one that does the most heavy towing is 2.7 with the small brakes, so they can't be that bad.

It's also no huge task to fit OEM 18's to a 3.0 D4 if your prepared to fit the earlier callipers, if my memory serves me well.

As I said previously I believe LR bring this spec of D4's into Australia with larger callipers so the locals can't fit the standard 18' OEM wheels so owners are limited in choice for decent off road tyres. They want to sell them as the best off roaders available then make sure only the most determined with deep pockets ever take them off road.

[SBD4]

It seems your defenders were discoveries after all:D

well that does it, I think the the credibility of the writer for that article is shot:


Lara Croft's Tomb Raider Land Rover Discovery being driven in a parade in 2006 - the car will cease production this Friday

[AndyG]

Celebrating the Land Rover Defender - in pictures | Business | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/gallery/2016/jan/29/celebrating-the-land-rover-defender-in-pictures#img-7)

Nothing to do with off road ability, but the coolness does attract a certain type

[AndyG]

It seems your defenders were discoveries after all:D

well that does it, I think the the credibility of the writer for that article is shot:

On a serious note, its amazing how many errors journos feed us, if you have a smidgen of knowledge about the subject.

[manic]

RRS 2007
We've belted the living day lights out of this car for 6 years and only managed to break:
1 x steering rack (design fault)
2 x CV's
1 x rear half shaft


Ouch. Suppose that's what happens when you go offroad in a rrs. A good 'crossover' vehicle is it, good for you. Thought this thread was def vs d3/d4 Offroad.

Defenders get properly beaten about offroad all over the world, some 25 years old, a life carrying tonnage and guaranteed not one of them had a single steering rack issue! ;)

Sounds like your Rrs is getting close to that age.... You should probably sell it soon. There is a reason defenders keep a high price - they live a bloody long life.

[Celtoid]

Land Rover Defender loved by drivers from the Queen to James Bond ceases production | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3418186/The-final-mile-Land-Rover-Defender-iconic-vehicle-loved-drivers-Queen-James-Bond-ceases-production-Friday.html?ito=social-facebook)

Perhaps the Disco fraternity can educate us with some pictures similar to the attached, anything involving flood rescue, Marines, Afghanistan, Lions, etc, i think they all qualify as serious off road use :p Maccas drive thru does not count.


That's 'cause, as has been proven over and over and over again in this forum that D4s can do nothing .... they are absolutely useless .... yeah right. And has been stated ..... there are one or two (+++) ;) non-bolt on differences between the Civi and Military Deefer in Australia. Use your noggin mate ...


LR didn't even waste their time Tendering for the contract that now sees our military driving G-Wagons, replacing the Deefers ...... Why? 'Cause they didn't have a product. Nobody in their right mind would buy a vehicle that old (design wise) and the Military weren't interested in anything that wasn't already MOTS (Military Off The Shelf). The risk is too high and the cost associated usually is too....not that a Military Spec G-Wagon is exactly cheap.




What are the Brits replacing their aging fleet of Deefers with?

[rick130]

As I said previously I believe LR bring this spec of D4's into Australia with larger callipers so the locals can't fit the standard 18' OEM wheels so owners are limited in choice for decent off road tyres. They want to sell them as the best off roaders available then make sure only the most determined with deep pockets ever take them off road.


I can hear the suits at Jaguar/Land Rover now....

"It's a luxury car damnit Smithers, not a bloody 4WD, what do those colonials think this is ? Bush week ?"


:D

[dullbird]

Ouch. Suppose that's what happens when you go offroad in a rrs. A good 'crossover' vehicle is it, good for you. Thought this thread was def vs d3/d4 Offroad.

Defenders get properly beaten about offroad all over the world, some 25 years old, a life carrying tonnage and guaranteed not one of them had a single steering rack issue! ;)

Sounds like your Rrs is getting close to that age.... You should probably sell it soon. There is a reason defenders keep a high price - they live a bloody long life.


Manic the 2007 RRS uses the same platform as these vehicles.

[MrLandy]

I can hear the suits at Jaguar/Land Rover now....

"It's a luxury car damnit Smithers, not a bloody 4WD, what do those colonials think this is ? Bush week ?"


:D

:Rolling:

So we need a comparison thread between D4 and GWagen, to ascertain why Aust Army didn't buy a fleet of D4's.

We also need to recognise how slooowwww JLR have been to build a replacement for Defender! Luxury market focus seems like the explanation to me.

[Celtoid]

Ouch. Suppose that's what happens when you go offroad in a rrs. A good 'crossover' vehicle is it, good for you. Thought this thread was def vs d3/d4 Offroad.

Defenders get properly beaten about offroad all over the world, some 25 years old, a life carrying tonnage and guaranteed not one of them had a single steering rack issue! ;)

Sounds like your Rrs is getting close to that age.... You should probably sell it soon. There is a reason defenders keep a high price - they live a bloody long life.


A 2007 RRS is a D4 .... do your homework. GGHaggis has an awesome RRS. So we have already gone down the track ... a million times .... the strongest chassis, strongest drive train, strongest boxes (FACT) ..... geez .....it's getting very wheezy!!!


And said Deefer at 25 years old would have had just about everything replaced unless it is doing what most Deefer drivers are doing with them lately .... actually just going to Maccas....


Oh, I recon ... if you did the numbers, there would be more Deefers doing the Maccas run than D3/4/RRS .... based on percentage on the road. But then that's just stats manipulation. :D

[Celtoid]

:Rolling:

So we need a comparison thread between D4 and GWagen, to ascertain why Aust Army didn't buy a fleet of D4's.

We also need to recognise how slooowwww JLR have been to build a replacement for Defender! Luxury market focus seems like the explanation to me.


Simple .... as stated before .... LR did not have a product. You could make a D4 very, very, robust and capable .... if you designed it to meet that need .... like was done for the original Deefers .... easy peezy ... It would be strong (already is stronger than a Deefer), capable (covered - limitations would be removed), stripped and powerful (covered)..... a few things a Deefer can't claim against a D4. But it's a stupid statement ... there isn't a LR design for that. Back to point ... No Product ... No Sale!!!


100% accurate. That's because certain models and certain previous management had allowed the Brand to almost go down the toilet. The Deefer was certainly not SAVING the Company!!!

D3/4/RRS and luxury (soft in the eyes of certain people) products have saved OUR Marque..... FACT!!!!

[MrLandy]

Simple .... as stated before .... LR did not have a product. You could make a D4 very, very, robust and capable .... if you designed it to meet that need .... like was done for the original Deefers .... easy peezy ... It would be strong (already is stronfger than a Deefer), capable (covered - limitations would be removed), stripped and powerful (covered)..... a few things a Deefer can't claim against a D4. But it's a stupid statement ... there isn't a LR design for that. Back to point ... No Product ... No Sale!!!


100% accurate. That's because certain models and certain previous management had allowed the Brand to almost go down the toilet. The Deefer was certainly not SAVING the Company!!!

D3/4/RRS and luxury (soft in the eyes of certain people) products have saved OUR Marque..... FACT!!!!

Yes saved the marque, but deserted the HD working vehicle market. I see zero D4's as working vehicles across Australia.

[rick130]

Yes saved the marque, but deserted the HD working vehicle market. I see zero D4's as working vehicles across Australia.


That started under Ford/PAG.

As soon as Ford took over Military was scratched and the focus became luxury vehicles.
The head of PAG stated that the Defender wasn't what he wanted, wasn't the image he wanted to pursue and actually wanted it killed off back then. He wanted the Disco and Range Rover (and subsequent models like the Freelander) and said his market competition was Lexus.

BMW had a plan that Australia would take over military development, the vehicles would be built in South Africa and Solihull would concentrate on the Disco and Rangie.
this was about to be implemented as the sale to Ford took place.
We may have a very much stronger and even more capable Deefer now as those LRA engineers were ex-Perentie engineers and had brought back a couple of engineers as contract consultants.
All those blokes were well aware of the silly faults like the pasta noodle tie rod/track rod/steering arms and lower rear trailing arms but couldn't get Solihull to change anything.

I had an 'in' at the time so knew what was happening, a mate I worked with and for was one of those ex-JRA contract consultants.

[ozscott]

The Misadventure 4wd boys do good videos with D2, D3/4, Deefer and RRS. The Watagans is good viewing. The RRS has little steelies and higher profile tyres on give it a bit more ability given what its wheeling with.

Cheers

[ozscott]

I dont understand the Defence force to have picked Steyer vehicles to go with their weapons nor because they are better...but based on cost and availability of the platform with parts for the next 20 years. There is no doubt about ability - both Defender and G-Wagon have that.
Cheers

[dullbird]

Simple .... as stated before .... LR did not have a product. You could make a D4 very, very, robust and capable .... if you designed it to meet that need .... like was done for the original Deefers .... easy peezy ... It would be strong (already is stronfger than a Deefer), capable (covered - limitations would be removed), stripped and powerful (covered)..... a few things a Deefer can't claim against a D4. But it's a stupid statement ... there isn't a LR design for that. Back to point ... No Product ... No Sale!!!


100% accurate. That's because certain models and certain previous management had allowed the Brand to almost go down the toilet. The Deefer was certainly not SAVING the Company!!!

D3/4/RRS and luxury (soft in the eyes of certain people) products have saved OUR Marque..... FACT!!!!


Is the D4 typing these posts for you?[emoji3]

Im starting to read your posts in a steven hawkin type robotic voice in my head hahahahahah[emoji23]

I thought it was too funny not to mention because I cant stop doing it now

I think its the ..... Making me think it, though Im not sure why.

[Homestar]

Sm

Series 1s fetch good money especially in the united states. In fact most series vehicles fetch good money in the states.

I have no doubts whats so ever my defender will be worth a bit a few years time providing its looked after well is not modified to the hilt and no one smashes in to it in the mean time.
I'm not talking american muscle car money or Mercedes e class money but it will be worth something

I believe even more so because its a 130.

Only a couple of months ago one guy had been trying to buy a 130 and had not been able to find one he may have one now but he had been searching for ages and people were just not selling them.
As i said when people cant find what they want they will often pay good money if they want it bad enough :)

Yep, supply and demand. Defenders already hold their value well, because, as you mentioned they don't get moved on as often. D3's and 4's far more often. What percentage of these will still be on the road in 30 years...? :angel:

And, for all you comfort lovers out there - go drive a 101 and then tell me a Defender is basic...:p

I love driving my 101, and have put far more KM on it than I ever imagined I would. Currently averaging 10,000KM a year in it and I only get to drive it on the weekends. :)

It's got everything you need - 3 - yes 3 pedals - the correct amount, a steering wheel and a gear stick. What else do you need in a car? :confused:

[Celtoid]

Yes saved the marque, but deserted the HD working vehicle market. I see zero D4's as working vehicles across Australia.


Yup, they did ..... (well, I think the claim of work vehicle is also a little thin.....capable of ... used that way... not so often).


Yes that's because a D4 is not designed to do that ..... doh!




Should have added ... a company that is still alive and kicking has the opportunity to do many things .... like have an opportunity to re-life the Deefer ..... :-)

[Celtoid]

Is the D4 typing these posts for you?[emoji3]

Im starting to read your posts in a steven hawkin type robotic voice in my head hahahahahah[emoji23]

I thought it was too funny not to mention because I cant stop doing it now

I think its the ..... Making me think it, though Im not sure why.


That's cause certain folks are not grasping the details real well ... even after a 1000 posts ..... so I'm talking REAL SLOW ;)

[rick130]

Is the D4 typing these posts for you?[emoji3]

Im starting to read your posts in a steven hawkin type robotic voice in my head hahahahahah[emoji23]

I thought it was too funny not to mention because I cant stop doing it now

I think its the ..... Making me think it, though Im not sure why.


Damnit Lou, now I'm doing it ! :eek:

[dullbird]

See what I mean its cracking me up right now

[Celtoid]

Damnit Lou, now I'm doing it ! :eek:


I'm ..... gonna ..... use more ..... dots .... now .................................................. ..................

[MrLandy]

Yup, they did ..... (well, I think the claim of work vehicle is also a little thin.....capable of, used that way... not so often).


Yes that's because a D4 is not designed to do that ..... doh!

Well that settles this thread for me. My definition of best off-road vehicle is HD working robustness and longevity in harsh environments as well as ability. If D4's were better at this there would be a lot more of them in the bush long term. Defenders are simply built to do this long term.
Cheers

[Celtoid]

Well that settles this thread for me. My definition of best off-road vehicle is HD working robustness and longevity in harsh environments as well as ability. If D4's were better at this there would be a lot more of them in the bush long term. Defenders are simply built to do this long term.
Cheers




.................................................. ......


As in structurally a D4 platform can meet all those requirements and better them with regards to toughness, etc, etc, etc ..... we've been round the buoy on this more times than Grant Kenny ... geez... no wonder I use dots ..... but a D4 was not designed with a basic plastic internal skin, nor a work tray, nor anything else agricultural. It could be .... but it wasn't. Capable of doing ... YES, designed to do ... NO!!!

[Celtoid]

I dont understand the Defence force to have picked Steyer vehicles to go with their weapons nor because they are better...but based on cost and availability of the platform with parts for the next 20 years. There is no doubt about ability - both Defender and G-Wagon have that.
Cheers



The G-Wagon is not cheap .... the Military spec is more expensive than the ridiculously expensive $150K Civi version. But I imagine you're right and I guess it will be more reliable than a Deefer and therefore cost less to maintain over the years.


Availability of parts would certainly be a factor.


It would be interesting to see how reliable the G actually works out to be ..... I imagine it would be pretty good.

[rick130]

The G-Wagon is not cheap .... the Military spec is more expensive than the ridiculously expensive $150K Civi version. But I imagine you're right and I guess it will be more reliable than a Deefer and therefore cost less to maintain over the years.


Availability of parts would certainly be a factor.


It would be interesting to see how reliable the G actually works out to be ..... I imagine it would be pretty good.


The Perenties weren't cheap nearly thirty years ago either.
I was told back in the mid/late nineties, I remember being a little gobsmacked but I'd be making it up if I quoted a figure now.

[ozscott]

It should be a good bit if kit Celtoid...not without early problems but they should have sorted them....the contract would be worth enough to get them right for our conditions.

Cheers

[chuck]

DEPI in Vic are also buying them as apparently they are overloading their cruisers with winches being removed.
DEPI officers are not happy as they need winches to get them out.

[Celtoid]

The Perenties weren't cheap nearly thirty years ago either.
I was told back in the mid/late nineties, I remember being a little gobsmacked but I'd be making it up if I quoted a figure now.


I imagine so.


I've never seen the definitive list of changes but I believe the suspension, steering and cooling system were some of the larger changes ... as in standard form the Deefer would not have made the spec. Don't know about engine or transmission ... but they may have required better filtering, etc. Some of the Mil stuff was just their (ADF) requirement and was neither here nor there as far as capability was concerned .... like comms racks and weapon racks.


As soon as you add MILITARY SPEC and change anything ... there is a large cost associated.


Cheers.

[Celtoid]

It should be a good bit if kit Celtoid...not without early problems but they should have sorted them....the contract would be worth enough to get them right for our conditions.

Cheers


I haven't read a whole lot about them but I get the impression from what I have read that they are a bit like the Deefer (original concept) in a lot of ways both good and bad.


It's a pretty old and proven design I believe but have the ability to be moded a lot in both modern and old style ways. Just like the original Deefer Military models there would have been design changes at the factory level that would be unavailable to the normal market.


You may have read about the MB PR fiasco when they took a bunch of the new $150K Civi G-Wagons out to the back of beyond in Australia ... they also had one Mil Spec vehicle. I think all of the Civi ones broke and the Military vehicle was flawless.


I imagine we aren't the only country buying them.

[AndyG]

DEPI in Vic are also buying them as apparently they are overloading their cruisers with winches being removed.
DEPI officers are not happy as they need winches to get them out.

Maybe they should buy D4's :D :wasntme:
Wasn't there a commercial version of the Disco in the early days, Telstra for example. And reading g an earlier post SA is speccing something similar, umm a three DoorD4 van, would cross an interesting market segment an would sit near Defender prices.

[TerryO]

There is a so called commercial D4 sold in the UK, I have no idea what the differences are, if any.

[Disco Muppet]

Commercials have no rear seats and the rear Windows covered/blacked out.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[vnx205]

... ...

And, for all you comfort lovers out there - go drive a 101 and then tell me a Defender is basic...:p
...


:)
When I saw my Defender in a car yard and spoke to the salesman, I was amused by his first comment which was something along the lines of the Defender driving like a truck.

I think he understood why that didn't worry me when I pointed out that I had driven there in a Series III LWB.
:D

[Celtoid]

Maybe they should buy D4's :D :wasntme:
Wasn't there a commercial version of the Disco in the early days, Telstra for example. And reading g an earlier post SA is speccing something similar, umm a three DoorD4 van, would cross an interesting market segment an would sit near Defender prices.

Police in the UK started using D4s years ago. I found that surprising. Although you'd be surprised how few (% wise) non JLR 4WD vehicles you see in the UK, I just thought the cost of a D4 would be prohibitive. Then again, they are far more competitively priced over there. Don't mean to be bad to the Police but it also surprised me that the ones I looked at were in normal trim .... Read....leather seats, etc.

[ozscott]

They used D3's from memory also as did special forces for urban work in V8 form. Defender of course is the mostly widely used by police, fire etc.

Cheers

[Disco Muppet]

British parliament are shuffled around in V8 D4s iirc.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[ozscott]

Yes. Faster and so much nicer than the rattler.

(:)))

[Celtoid]

They used D3's from memory also as did special forces for urban work in V8 form. Defender of course is the mostly widely used by police, fire etc.

Cheers


Yeah, they'll be sweating on the new Deefer not being a flop. Imagine the Services and Military driving G-Wagons .... there would be a riot. :o

[ozscott]

MB/Steyer could use Angie Kerber as their pin up girl that might quieten the restive beasts.

[Celtoid]

British parliament are shuffled around in V8 D4s iirc.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app


You can buy a factory built armoured D4 ..... not that they'd be much good against current terrorist tactics ... but better than nothing I suppose.

[Celtoid]

MB/Steyer could use Angie Kerber as their pin up girl that might quieten the restive beasts.


LOL ... the German Giant Killer.

[ozscott]

Here is a nice commercial Disco 105078

[rick130]

Here is a nice commercial Disco 105078


I saw a DII with those wheels recently.
It threw me, I wondered what the hell it was, it just didn't look right. :D

[Celtoid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUGOgF4UgsY


Did any of you watch this Youtube clip?


Looks like a lot of fun and some great scenery.


Sorry, title should actually read LR Vids.

[LandyAndy]

They only took 1 Defender to rescue all those soft roaders:cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew

[rick130]

They only took 1 Defender to rescue all those soft roaders:cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew


That's because you only need one Defender of whatever iteration to recover and save the others. :D

[Celtoid]

They only took 1 Defender to rescue all those soft roaders:cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew


There are plenty of vids in Youtube of folks getting it very wrong in the same environment ..... quite entertaining. :D

[manic]

A 2007 RRS is a D4 .... do your homework.

Errrr no it isn't. Different body and D3 era. Plus not mentioned in OP. So stop talking about crossover cup holders and accept that the defender is the better vehicle for major offroad missions.

You d3/4 owners made some good points. Alot can be said for the engine/auto/TC management in those vehicles and its ability to push on in the rough. But they do not come close to offering the offroad diversity of the defender platform for serious offroad use in a wide range of applications. They cannot be modified to the same extremes and they cannot compete on factory wheels. It's over.

D3/4/Rrs owners you are rightfully proud owners and I salute your passion for the marque.

[Celtoid]

Errrr no it isn't. Different body and D3 era. Plus not mentioned in OP. So stop talking about crossover cup holders and accept that the defender is the better vehicle for major offroad missions.

You d3/4 owners made some good points. Alot can be said for the engine/auto/TC management in those vehicles and its ability to push on in the rough. But they do not come close to offering the offroad diversity of the defender platform for serious offroad use in a wide range of applications. They cannot be modified to the same extremes and they cannot compete on factory wheels. It's over.

D3/4 owners you are rightfully proud owners and I salute you.



I didn't think I needed to explain all the details as somebody else had already covered/alluded to it. Sorry, I should have been more explicit.


To simplify it, a RRS (up till the latest ones) were basically a more lux body and interior on the same running gear as D3 & 4. There are RRS of the same era as the D4 that have this principle applied. The change over to the new chassis isn't that old and D4 has been around for over 6 years. So yes the YEAR isn't 100% accurate in my statement .... but you get what I meant?


I was trying to save myself from typing that .... LOL!!!


The relevance being .... an RRS is just as capable as it's D3/4 counterpart of the same era. That was really my only point.

[TerryO]

While yes there are a number of differences between a RRS and a Disco Manic, there is a pretty good reason why this particular section is called the D3/D4/RRS section. ... :angel:

[ozscott]

Its funny because in the misadventure 4wd vids the RRS even with steel wheels does it tough compared to a D4, D2 with mild lift and Deefer. Gordon might chime in here as he has/had one and I have not wheeled with a RRS.

Cheers

[Disco Muppet]

Was the e-diff as widely available in the rrs as it was the disco?
From memory the misadventure rrs had a traction control issue for a fair few videos.
Perhaps Jimmy Salsa can confirm for us :)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Celtoid]

Its funny because in the misadventure 4wd vids the RRS even with steel wheels does it tough compared to a D4, D2 with mild lift and Deefer. Gordon might chime in here as he has/had one and I have not wheeled with a RRS.

Cheers


How old is the RRS do you know? The point being the traction control system has improved all the way through the models, even in the D4s. My MY13 reacts far faster than my MY10 did. So maybe that's it.


Probably be a different story if Gordon was driving the RRS .... LOL! Just saying :).

[ozscott]

Sure but he has done a lot of offroading now in difficult terrain. Not sure of year. It looked to have less articulation but that must be optical illusion if they are same spec as d4...

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Sure but he has done a lot of offroading now in difficult terrain. Not sure of year. It looked to have less articulation but that must be optical illusion if they are same spec as d4...

Cheers


I 'think' the wheelbase is slightly shorter. I was under the impression the rest was close as can be.

[ozscott]

Yes and if everything else is the same it should be slightly better than a d4 but it wasnt on any of the extensive outings they did. There are parts where he took the same line as D2, D4 etc and it didn't look to be driver error. Who knows.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Yes and if everything else is the same it should be slightly better than a d4 but it wasnt on any of the extensive outings they did. There are parts where he took the same line as D2, D4 etc and it didn't look to be driver error. Who knows.

Cheers


I thought wheelbase was a variable .... as in different terrain or circumstances can suit either in different ways making one have an advantage over the other from time to time?

[ozscott]

Agreed but in many of the vids a shorty defender for example would be a weapon and the D2 is 100 inch...

[LandyAndy]

If you have an hour to spend,watch this video.Shows just how ordinary softroader D4s are in tough going:p:p:p:p.Proof that the 19" tyre/wheel combo is a big hinderence.Perhaps they should have used Gordons rims.
They bogged them plenty of times,so did they bog everything else.
How many people does it take to change a wheel on a D4??? You will have to watch to see:p:p:p:p:p
Video is well worth watching,brilliant scenery.
ENJOY
Andrew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQCoKBCiayA

[Steve223]

I thought wheelbase was a variable .... as in different terrain or circumstances can suit either in different ways making one have an advantage over the other from time to time?


in my opinion a short to mid size wheel base is often more advantageous doing very technical driving then a long wheelbase

[ozscott]

Nice vid Andy. Look 19's are really a hinderance off road especially miles from civilisation and even closer can cause heartache, diversion from the trip and (considerable) expense. They also hinder progress in soft sand. But think of it the other way. What a great machine it would be with 17 inch like you can spec in South Africa....why LRA does not offer it here i will never know. The 19's really are a crazy idea. I get them for a Range Rover but not on a vehicle that is meant (in theory - D1 and D2 was) to bridge the gap between Defender and Range Rover.

Cheers

[scarry]

Nice vid Andy. Look 19's are really a hinderance off road especially miles from civilisation and even closer can cause heartache, diversion from the trip and (considerable) expense. They also hinder progress in soft sand. But think of it the other way. What a great machine it would be with 17 inch like you can spec in South Africa....why LRA does not offer it here i will never know. The 19's really are a crazy idea. I get them for a Range Rover but not on a vehicle that is meant (in theory - D1 and D2 was) to bridge the gap between Defender and Range Rover.

Cheers

Totally agree,is absolutely ridiculous:mad:

Thats the reason i bought one of the last D4s that could take 17s.
In four years i have yet to change a tyre,and have done a heap of off roading:D

It is only in the last couple of years that LT tyres have been available here in 18 inch,and haven't been oversize.

[LandyAndy]

OUCH!!!!
Passenger left a mess on the roof lining.
No C/P, Land Rover, Defender, Wagon - Pickles Auctions Australia (http://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-salvage/item/-/details/NO-C-P--Land-Rover--Defender--Wagon/2002723007)
Andrew

[manic]

While yes there are a number of differences between a RRS and a Disco Manic, there is a pretty good reason why this particular section is called the D3/D4/RRS section. ... :angel:

Which begs the question, why did you exclude it from your OP? The RRS owners got shunned from the rr forum and bundled in with you d3 d4 owners - yet still shunned. An official apology to RRS owners forthcoming? :p

So the question clarified : Is the d3, d4 OR rrs with aftermarket wheels, but not the newest rrs better than a stock defender (new PUMA with 110 body only) offroad?

[MrLandy]

The reason D4's are specced with 19" wheels = low profile tyres is simple. They are designed primarily for on road use. 90% of D4 owners will never take them off road. The fact that traditional 16" wheels are not able to be fitted is a ridiculous design flaw, agreed. But it does make it very clear what D4's are primarily designed for / what the Land Rover (Road Rover) target market is now. With the end of Defender there is now no purpose built off-road vehicle in the Land Rover range. It makes a total farce of the green oval badge IMO.

[TerryO]

Nice vid Andy. Look 19's are really a hinderance off road especially miles from civilisation and even closer can cause heartache, diversion from the trip and (considerable) expense. They also hinder progress in soft sand. But think of it the other way. What a great machine it would be with 17 inch like you can spec in South Africa....why LRA does not offer it here i will never know. The 19's really are a crazy idea. I get them for a Range Rover but not on a vehicle that is meant (in theory - D1 and D2 was) to bridge the gap between Defender and Range Rover.

Cheers


In my opinion 19" rims is not such a big deal, check out how many sets of late model Defender mag wheels are for sale, many of those Defender owners who go off road change rims as well, so for serious off roading fitting non OEM rims is reasonably common.

Yes the 19's are a handicap off road, but there are a number of legal options that don't cost arms and legs that can get rid of the issue and will put late model Disco's on good rubber that is roughly what a Defender comes with standard.

Sometime ago I got a quote to have our D4 engineered with the slightly smaller D3 brakes and a set of 17's fitted and believe it or not even with the purchase of the 17" wheels and the D3 brakes from a wreckers and the engineering fee it's not a lot more than buying a set of Gordons 18's.

Another option is buying and having fitted the earlier callipers so LR OEM 18's will fit then have the mods engineered, if you feel so inclined.

It's up to the individual to decide how far they want to go with major mods for off roading, in reality very few D4 owners will want to go as far as changing brakes and having their pride and joy engineered, but it's not that hard, nor is it that expensive and if makes a massive difference off road and for outback touring.

The easiest option though is buying a set of Gordons 18" rims, in reality it is a $3,000 cost, not that big a deal. Yes you have to buy tyres but no matter what you have to buy off road tyres anyway as the standard issue aren't up to it, so I only count the cost of the rims and having two sets of rims is such a good thing, one set with highway tyres and the other with 32" MUDs so you can go off road with confidence and with decent sized and spec tyres and as a added bonus make Defenders look ordinary. ... :twisted:

[MrLandy]

In my opinion 19" rims is not such a big deal, check out how many sets of late model Defender mag wheels are for sale, many of those Defender owners who go off road change rims as well, so for serious off roading fitting non OEM rims is reasonably common.

Yes the 19's are a handicap off road, but there are a number of legal options that don't cost arms and legs that can get rid of the issue and will put late model Disco's on good rubber that is roughly what a Defender comes with standard.

Sometime ago I got a quote to have our D4 engineered with the slightly smaller D3 brakes and a set of 17's fitted and believe it or not even with the purchase of the 17" wheels and the D3 brakes from a wreckers and the engineering fee it's not a lot more than buying a set of Gordons 18's.

Another option is buying and having fitted the earlier callipers so LR OEM 18's will fit then have the mods engineered, if you feel so inclined.

It's up to the individual to decide how far they want to go with major mods for off roading, in reality very few D4 owners will want to go as far as changing brakes and having their pride and joy engineered, but it's not that hard, nor is it that expensive and if makes a massive difference off road and for outback touring.

The easiest option though is buying a set of Gordons 18" rims, in reality it is a $3,000 cost, not that big a deal. Yes you have to buy tyres but no matter what you have to buy off road tyres anyway as the standard issue aren't up to it, so I only count the cost of the rims and having two sets of rims is such a good thing, one set with highway tyres and the other with 32" MUDs so you can go off road with confidence and with decent sized and spec tyres and as a added bonus make Defenders look ordinary. ... :twisted:

Along with clearance and a 4WD system, effective HD wheel and tyre dimensions are the most basic requirement of a serious 4WD vehicle. I would say it is a big deal and a massive design oversight. Especially on an $80K+ vehicle. If you can't run standard 16's with tall tough sidewall tyres, you're at a big disadvantage. I wouldn't want to be looking for an 18" tyre in the middle of nowhere either. Has anyone modded their D4 to run 16's?

[TerryO]

Along with clearance and a 4WD system, effective HD wheel and tyre dimensions are the most basic requirement of a serious 4WD vehicle. I would say it is a big deal and a massive design oversight. Especially on an $80K+ vehicle. If you can't run standard 16's with tall tough sidewall tyres, you're at a big disadvantage. I wouldn't want to be looking for an 18" tyre in the middle of nowhere either. Has anyone modded their D4 to run 16's?


This is becoming laughable old mate, you know D4's can not fit 16's, so why keep bringing it up?

I remember when I first started going 4wheel driving around 2009 there were plenty of people saying that 16" tyres didn't have enough side wall and you should stick with 15's if you were truly serious about going off road.

The world has moved on in tyre construction just like it did from 14's to 15's and then to 16's and now 17's and of lately 18's in off road tyres, now they all can be bought in LT construction and with various sizes, 19's can't.

So if it's all about sidewall size then like it was said to me when I first bought my D1 with 16" Wheel Works rims that I was wasting my time and should get 15's, then using the same logic, which is the same as yours then why don't you swap your Defender to 15's if you think sidewall in so important?

I see little to any disadvantage with 17's or 18" off road tyres on a D4, you may think it is a problem but I and many others who use them do not. As for buying tyres in the outback, well I have read plenty of threads on Aulro over time saying that it's hard to get any decent tyres in most remote places because now there are so many different sizes that most places don't keep lots of stock and usually only order tyres when some one comes in.