Which is better Off Road a D3/4 or a late model Defender? ... Puma 110

[TerryO]

Ok this is not meant to create friction between the flat earthers over in the Defender section and the Latte set here, so, believe it or not I am asking a serious question.
Why? Well with all this talk of how rear new or late model 110 Defenders (Puma) are and how expensive they have become I went and checked Carpoint and found a 2015 Limited edition 110 second hand for over $90k. The only thing that looked different was the mainly orange paint. But even so other older higher mileage 110's were still in my opinion very expensive for what you get, so are they worth it and are they better off road than a late model similar spec Disco?

My thoughts on this well the only real claim to fame a Defender has is its serious off road ability, but seriously is a late model fairly standard Defender better off road when it gets in to the serious rough stuff than similar modded D3/4?

Now I'm not talking about a twin locked Defender on 35" muddies with a four inch suspension and body lift. I'm trying, if possible, to compare similar modified and spec vehicles.

To make it fair both vehicles need to be similar in spec and the closest to a Disco is a 110. To also keep it fair and comparible they need similar sized and spec tyres so let's say up to the standard OEM Defender size which is just under 32" from memory, but they can both be Muddies plus what ever wheels required to fit those tyres. I have included a couple of other mods that you commonly see added to many 4x4's if you go for a day out bashing the tracks up around Lithgow or I bet most other favourite weekend distinctions.

Front bull bar.

Rock sliders

Snorkel

And that is it, no other mods, yes you can remove things like mud flaps etc put the spare in the back if you want to as this costs nothing.

Sure there are plenty of other bits but this is just about trying to compare their off road ability with them as standard and similar spec as possible. I have put rock sliders in because I'm not talking about actually testing these machines with the least amount of panel damage. Plus compare their value for money now a Defender can cost as much as a new D4.

So given this fairly mild spec which is better bush bashing a Disco or a Defender?

[AnD3rew]

Well,I am no expert, but my observations from some Land Rover days out with Defenders and Discos, the only area where the Defer beats the Disco is in clearance. In all other respects the Disco is just as capable and maybe with the terrain response better, I have seen the Discos walking up stuff that Defers have to hit at speed to get over and that breaks things. Also the Disco is more comfortable, safer and the Defer might have a bit more room in the back but the Discos space is more accessible.

For me I would spend my 90k on a Disco well before I would on a Defer. I love the concept of the Defer and the look and have been tempted but it really is a no brainer.

[roverrescue]

I'm sure that emotion will always be of more significance than capability when making these comparisons however;

One terrain which would show a big difference in your vehicle comparison is tea tree swamp land. Weight is your enemy... Power just sends you deeper... An extra 500kg is more than enough to sink your day... An extra tonne will certainly send you south. The extra weight of the disco with the lower ground clearance will end in winching.

Steve

[letherm]

I have no experience of Defenders at all but maybe the price hike is due to the Defender coming to the end of its production run.

Martin

[vnx205]

Since the original question seems to have been inspired by an observation of the prices of Defenders, it occurs to me that there may be something other than off-road ability that affects the price.

There are tasks for which the Defender is a much more suitable vehicle than a D3 or D4.

In fact there are things that a Series LR can do better than a Disco.

When I had my Series III, I regularly carried close to a tonne of firewood in the back. Most people would not buy a Disco to do that.

On a few occasions, I carried a tonne of sandstock bricks in the back and another half a tone in the trailer. I would have much preferred using the Series III or my current Defender for a job like that to any of the other LR products.

Maybe the Defenders, in particular to 110s have broader appeal and hence command a higher price.

I realise there are things a D4 does better than a Defender. I suspect they would be a better choice for dropping the kids off to soccer training on Saturday morning. :p:p:p

[RobA]

The answer is it all depends in my book. What are you going to use the car for in the first instance? We all spend around 80% of our time on bitumen or formed dirt roads getting to a point where low range is required. So IMHO a D4 without question.

Having driven green ones all over Oz and in some rather fascinating places on this planet my memories are of an underpowered, noisy, uncomfortable and subsequently fatiguing box that got me there and back without too many issues

Whereas I hop into the D4 for a 10 hour run to Coober Pedy or even further North of Adelaide with the exception of some fun, comfort and arriving at my destination without the need for a quartizone injection in my back and another 10 hours of physic so I can move again

Still there will be others who can feel differently about this I am sure

What a great question to start a small war

Rob

[rick130]

Probably ends up coming down to driver ability, and without driving either a late Deefer or a Disco, I'd guess the Disco is more capable for a wider range of drivers.
Personally I don't like the way it's achieved, (I'd rather have the wheels stay in touch with terra firma as much as possible, a wheel in the air isn't driving you forward and if the right wheel and damper rates are used the chassis is so much more stable, but at some compromise to on road use) but marvel at the Disco's ability.

Personally I don't like some of the mechanical compromises in the late Deefers, but it can all be fixed/optimised. eg. better/increased wheel travel, crappy front driveline angle and a poor rear diff design.

The real claim for the Deefer is that it's a commercial (and in previous lives, military) vehicle.
I used to carry damned near 800kg of work gear most all the time and could go wherever in much more comfort than in a Lolux, Cruiser or Patrol, even though the interior is more cramped than the Patrol.
That's what the Defender needs to be compared against.
Could I do that in a Disco ?
Some of it, but I'd trash the interior badly.

$90k for a Deefer though ?

tell 'em they're dreamin ! :D

[rar110]

I think my L322 tdv8 (similar power to a D4 SDV6) is a bit better than my 110 turbo Isuzu when getting on and off the beach, mainly because of the huge power and torque. I don't have to air down with the L322.

[rick130]

I think my L322 tdv8 (similar power to a D4 SDV6) is a bit better than my 110 turbo Isuzu when getting on and off the beach, mainly because of the huge power and torque. I don't have to air down with the L322.


Might be the rubber too ?

[Mick_Marsh]

Would have been nice to see a D4 do this track.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/452.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5668.jpg.html)
I have no doubt that it could have. I just question would you want to.

[rar110]

Might be the rubber too ?

I'm not sure. The 110 has Goodyear ATs 235/85/16 and the L322 has cheap HW 255/55/19 tyres.

[Chops]

As said, horses for courses.
The Defer can be loaded up to the max, but can be uncomfortable. The Disco can still be loaded up, but nowhere near to the same extent.
Having had a D1 V8, then the D2 V8, then moving into the Puma, it was a real shock to the system. The Disco stands out for comfort whilst getting there, and can still perform.
The D 3&4 have really cool electrics which seem to allow them to go virtually anywhere, but are they as good as the Defer,,, probably better in most circumstances except maybe wherever ground clearance may be majorly required.

We just test drove a D4 the other day,,, hmmmm I'd have both if I could afford it.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Give me a Pajero any day.

[TerryO]

Give me a Pajero any day.

Must be such a honour to have a vehicle named after you old mate. ... ;)

Anyway let's keep it on topic please.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

You're such a big girls blouse Terry,,

why didnt you post this "over there",, ?

scared?:p

[cripesamighty]

I think he meant it tongue firmly planted in cheek, or at least that's the way I took it.....

[Tote]

I'll be in a better position to comment shortly with a new 130 here in a couple of weeks. The Defender would be better for long distance heavily loaded touring and be much less likely to be over its GVM than a Disco. We did the Simpson in the D3 and were heavily laden. Sand is the other place that a Defender might have the edge with better tyre options and a lower kerb weight. My D3 was always disappointing in sand compared to other terrains where I could match it with anything that my mates with Cruisers and Prados ( with twin lockers) could do.

Regards,
Tote

[TerryO]

Not tongue in cheek at all guys, as I said originally it's a serious question and I'm hoping for serious responses.

[scarry]

There is both under the carport here,and have been for a good few years:)

Completely different vehicles,but the D4 does it easier in real hard off road stuff.It just seems to walk up and over things.Very little if any wheel spin,where the deefer will spin the wheels,and sometimes lose forward motion,where on the same line the D4 has crawled through.

This also depends on driver ability,tyres,etc.The D4 you don't have to 'drive' the vehicle as much as you do in the Defender.

But there are places the D4 may get panel damage,where the Deefer won't,and water crossings,to me,are more riskier in the D4 than the Deefer.

And don't forget the D4 has off road height,and extended off road height,so ground clearance is good.The Defender may win out in approach and departure angles though,particularly if you have the 40mm lift.

[tact]

I reckon it's down to whether you are happier to see scratches mud and dents inside and outside on a disco, or a defender.

My 2013 Defender was nicely "jungle pinstriped" (literally jungle, Malaysian jungles) a few months from brand new. You get that from close encounters with tree branches, vines and bamboo as you drive overgrown trails. "Pinstriped my front, bonnet, roof and both sides.

Would have cried to see that on a shiny new disco's paintwork.

[Narangga]

Oops - missed Scarry's post.

[rick130]

Will be interesting when someone who has actually owned, or does own, both vehicles posts.

Sits down and waits patiently... :angel:


Two posts above yours ;)

[Tote]

I guess there's another angle that needs to be considered as well. I was assuming a new Puma with traction control as thats what I've ordered. there would be a considerable difference in the ease of offloading (not necessarily the capability) between a my2015 Defender with traction control and a 200TDI with none.

Regards,
Tote

[Toxic_Avenger]

There's plenty of vehicles I'd drive if I had 90K to burn. But there's even less car's youd consider if you were buying a BIFL vehicle...
For a 'burner', a Disco would certainly be in the picture, but let's not discount the fact that for the defender, post-production fan-boy prices and pie-in-the-sky fishermen on carsales don't really represent true market value.

Comparing NEW prices- lets say 50K for the deefer vs the 85K for the disco(SDV6)


Is the disco roughly twice the offroad ability of the deefer? No.
Is it loaded with twice the features - You bet your ass it is. Even the pov pack disco wins hands down.
Would the driver of the disco be twice as apprehensive of taking his vehicle through some compromising situations- Definately. This is proportional to the $$$ invested.
Does the defender have twice the charm of the disco - I think so.


As someone else alluded to, it's horses for courses.
I paid half the price for a vehicle that does (IMO) the same job, and with none of the features I didn't need. I'll spare a thought for you mob spilling tears on your muddied nappa leather and discombobulated sat-nav systems after a big weekend, while I'm cleaning the inside of the deefer with a gerni.


PS... I know what I'd rather be selling in 15 years time...


21 year old Defender
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104108&stc=1&d=1452374252



21 year old Disco
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104109&stc=1&d=1452374252

In 15 years, I'll be wheeling a disco like this:
this, while I'm keeping the deefer in the shed looking 'pretty'*.






*pretty is of course, subjective

[TerryO]

Would have been nice to see a D4 do this track.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/452.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5668.jpg.html)
I have no doubt that it could have. I just question would you want to.


I know of plenty of Disco 3 and 4's that drive tracks like that no problem at all, in fact that is the type of track I was talking about, that is why I included rock sliders as one of the few acceptable options, as I said this is not a dirt back roads comparison.

As for wanting to or not, well when a relatively new Defender 110 is now being sold for about the same as most new Disco 4's sold then I guess the question could just as easily be asked of one to four year old Defender owners if they want to risk the same kind of damage?

If you go back to original post then you would know that it was meant to compare the two LR models with standard height tyres for a Defender 110 being maximum size and no lift kits.

Thanks for using that picture as an example Mick, the Defender in it looks, as far as I can tell, like it has standardish sized tyres and from the picture it would seam the owner needs a spotter to guide him down what as far as I can see is not such a challenging track and that is pretty much exactly my point. Is a standard height and standard tyre sized Defender better off road than a late model Disco with roughly the same height and spec tyres?

By the way for those doubting the prices I quoted check this out.

Used Land Rover Defender cars - Find Land Rover Defender cars for sale - CarPoint Australia (http://www.carpoint.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?offset=0&sortby=Price&tabID=3013035&q=((Service%3d%5bCarsales%5d)%26((((((SiloType%3d% 5bBrand+new+cars+in+stock%5d)%7c(SiloType%3d%5bDea ler+used+cars%5d))%7c(SiloType%3d%5bDemo+and+near+ new+cars%5d))%7c(SiloType%3d%5bPrivate+seller+cars %5d))%26((Make%7b%3d%7d%5bLand+Rover%5d)%7b%26%7d( Model%7b%3d%7d%5bDefender%5d)))%26(Year%3drange%5b 2006..%5d)))&limit=12)

[jon3950]

Scarry's post is on the money.

Capability is a bit subjective, both have their strengths and weaknesses and neither is a clear winner. In the hands of a lesser skilled driver the Disco is way more capable off road. In anyones hands the Disco is way more capable on road and in keeping its occupants alive if something goes wrong.

The Disco is a brilliant vehicle with a greater breadth of capability and I'd be inclined to say overall it would be a more capable vehicle off-road - if it didn't have 19" rims. The thing the Defender has going for it though is a general ruggedness that makes you less worried about throwing it at the scenery - this alone makes it more capable in the real world, but it needs a skilled driver to get the most out of it.

The reason I'm moving from a D4 to a Defender is not because it is more capable, but because I'm bored with the D4. I want to re-discover the joy of driving off-road instead of just pointing the vehicle where I want to go. The Defender is simply a more engaging drive and that's worth the cost to me. You either get that or you don't.

Cheers,
Jon

[Mick_Marsh]

I know of plenty of Disco 3 and 4's that drive tracks like that no problem at all, in fact that is the type of track I was talking about, that is why I included rock sliders as one of the few acceptable options, as I said this is not a dirt back roads comparison.

As for wanting to or not, well when a relatively new Defender 110 is now being sold for about the same as most new Disco 4's sold then I guess the question could just as easily be asked of one to four year old Defender owners if they want to risk the same kind of damage?

If you go back to original post then you would know that it was to meant to compare the two LR models with standard height tyres for a Defender 110 being maximum size and no lift kits. The Defender in that picture looks like it has standardish sized tyres and needs a spotter to guide him down what as far as I can see is not such a challenging track and that is my point.

For those doubting that the prices I quoted check this out.

Used Land Rover Defender cars - Find Land Rover Defender cars for sale - CarPoint Australia (http://www.carpoint.com.au/DesktopDefault.aspx?offset=0&sortby=Price&tabID=3013035&q=((Service%3d%5bCarsales%5d)%26((((((SiloType%3d% 5bBrand+new+cars+in+stock%5d)%7c(SiloType%3d%5bDea ler+used+cars%5d))%7c(SiloType%3d%5bDemo+and+near+ new+cars%5d))%7c(SiloType%3d%5bPrivate+seller+cars %5d))%26((Make%7b%3d%7d%5bLand+Rover%5d)%7b%26%7d( Model%7b%3d%7d%5bDefender%5d)))%26(Year%3drange%5b 2006..%5d)))&limit=12)
That track was a lot more interesting than that.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/636.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5680.jpg.html)
If, as you say, the prices are about the same, why not?
Mind you, I wouldn't be putting any car I paid $92,887 for down that track.
$20,000 I might think about it.
Are D4s selling for $5,000 yet? If yes, yep, I'd take it down that track.

[TerryO]

That track was a lot more interesting than that.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/636.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5680.jpg.html)
If, as you say, the prices are about the same, why not?
Mind you, I wouldn't be putting any car I paid $92,887 for down that track.
$20,000 I might think about it.
Are D4s selling for $5,000 yet? If yes, yep, I'd take it down that track.


Again Mick sorry but I see nothing that is to challenging in that track for either a D3 or D4 with decent tyres.

However you more than likely inadvertently have also made one of my main points. The cost, you would not risk high dollar vehicle down that track, but that is what late model Defenders now are, high dollar vehicles with asking prices often roughly the same as similar vintage D4's.

As for $20k you can buy a modified D3 pretty easy and it would drive that track with similar sized tyres to a standard 110 with just as much ease any day of the week, you more than likely wouldn't even need a spotter. ... ;)

As for $5,000 vehicles, well there are plenty of highly modified D1's for sale and they will easily do the trick.

Anyway so far this is a very interesting discussion.

[Chops]

I'm sure there are people who will use their Discos to the fullest, I know I did with my D1.
Most of these vehicles are bought by people who have absolutely no intention of ever hitting a dirt road, let alone a track of any description.
Myself, when I bought a brand new 75 series Toyo ute, I was ridiculed because I didn't buy a house instead, then they were blown away when two weeks after I bought it, came into work with scratches all down the side of it.
My answer/statement, "what's the point in buying a car to then not use it for what it was designed to do" ?? In the end they shut up.
Bought the D1, not a blemish on it, a real live "Toorak Tractor". Picked it up Wednesday, drive into work Monday with pin stripes all over it. Dickheads had to be told again, or asked I should say,, "What's the point?"
At no point in my driving career, have I ever been scared to see damage on any of my 4x4's, but, at the same time, I've always attempted to get through unscathed. It's par for the course that your likely to get them damaged in one way or another, due to either tight tracks or just plain hard work.
The only thing I think I would worry about, would be the longevity of the electronic components in a Disco.

[Stuart02]

There's plenty of vehicles I'd drive if I had 90K to burn. But there's even less car's youd consider if you were buying a BIFL vehicle...
For a 'burner', a Disco would certainly be in the picture, but let's not discount the fact that for the defender, post-production fan-boy prices and pie-in-the-sky fishermen on carsales don't really represent true market value.

Comparing NEW prices- lets say 50K for the deefer vs the 85K for the disco(SDV6)


Is the disco roughly twice the offroad ability of the deefer? No.
Is it loaded with twice the features - You bet your ass it is. Even the pov pack disco wins hands down.
Would the driver of the disco be twice as apprehensive of taking his vehicle through some compromising situations- Definately. This is proportional to the $$$ invested.
Does the defender have twice the charm of the disco - I think so.


As someone else alluded to, it's horses for courses.
I paid half the price for a vehicle that does (IMO) the same job, and with none of the features I didn't need. I'll spare a thought for you mob spilling tears on your muddied nappa leather and discombobulated sat-nav systems after a big weekend, while I'm cleaning the inside of the deefer with a gerni.


PS... I know what I'd rather be selling in 15 years time...


21 year old Defender
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104097&stc=1&d=1452330576



21 year old Disco
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104098&stc=1&d=1452330680

In 15 years, I'll be wheeling a disco like this:
this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2peMyUxPh-M), while I'm keeping the deefer in the shed looking 'pretty'*.






*pretty is of course, subjective

You're right about resale and durability 21 years from now but I'm forever puzzled by the attitude that Disco owners won't go offroad cos their cars are too precious. We'd all be driving Mercedes GLs if we just wanted to pretend!!!

As to the OP which was purely re bush bashing, which I take to mean not touring or load lugging or soccer runs etc and 'better' which could mean a few things - the Deefer is lighter, narrower, higher sills, better entry and exit angles, smaller standard rims and rear mounted spare. I'm guessing the D4 has a lower centre of gravity and I don't know about ramp over angles or turning circle?

I think the general opinion is that modern autos with proper HDC give away nothing to manuals in engine braking and are often better than manuals but it does bring me to a point about driver skill. I think (this is all opinion of course) that a driver with no offroad experience will get further in a D4, an experienced offroader with no Land Rover experience could likely get just as far or further in a Defender - and have more fun doing so - but a good driver with a good understanding of the D4 is going to get furthest most of the time (some kinds of mud aside).

I don't suppose Gordon will be along to provide an answer based on much more experience than I?

Then it comes down to the driving experience, and I think the Deefer is a purer, more fun drive (aside from the sheer marvelling at the D4 every time I asked it to do something!). Whereas the D4 is obviously more comfy but also safer, so for that reason alone I'd always choose it for the family.

I would be rapt to have both in the garage (actually I really want a 90!) and I think I'd drive the deefer more than you'd expect. But $90k is never going to happen!!

[DiscoMick]

$90k is a silly price for a Defender. They are different vehicles for different purposes. No way I'd load up a new D4 with 12 bags of goat poo or a load of bricks. Both very capable off road, but achieve it in different ways.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[AndyG]

Would have been nice to see a D4 do this track.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/452.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5668.jpg.html)
I have no doubt that it could have. I just question would you want to.

Mick was that the Across the Border trip, on the "interesting" day trip.

[AndyG]

The original OP $90,000 was a end of production limited edition, someone having a try, so lets talk $60,000 in comparison.

I suspect in both the Defender or a D4, the Driver, me, will be the limiting factor.
Bring on the Defender replacement !

[jon3950]

I have always thought this video was an excellent demonstration of how capable a Disco really is, but also why a Defender is probably a better choice for this type of stuff.

http://youtu.be/JIlQtB4tbNQ

Interesting discussion so far. The gist of the argument against the Disco seems to be you wouldn't want to damage it rather than any real lack of capability. However the Disco is built like a tank. Everything is tucked up well underneath and there's probably more dangly bits to get caught up on the Defender. Even the fancy interior is a lot tougher than it looks and some new Defender interiors are pretty fancy these days too - especially on the limited editions. I think its more the fact that a bit of cosmetic damage looks a lot worse on a Disco than a Defender.

Remember though, if you are comparing brand new vehicles, the Disco's 19" rims need to be included. Those of you on 18"s and 17"s may forget this, but it is the Disco's single most limiting factor. Only the brilliance of the Disco in other areas hides this.

Cheers,
Jon

[Mick_Marsh]

Again Mick sorry but I see nothing that is to challenging in that track for either a D3 or D4 with decent tyres.
At no time have I ever said a D4 would not get down that track.
What I would say, in a Defender you wouldn't get this problem:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/230457-drying-carpets.html
Unlike Chops, I wouldn't want to pinstripe a nice looking car. Others will attest to the care I take of the finish of the Commodore.
What I like about my Landrovers is, to clean the inside, you hose it out.
Do you do that with your D4?


Mick was that the Across the Border trip, on the "interesting" day trip.
Yep
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/626.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5691.jpg.html)

[TerryO]

Here is a couple of very interesting reads comparing all five Land Rover models off road when standard and what the ultimate LR off roader would be if the writer had his way. This is well worth reading for both Fender, Disco, RRS and Vogue owners.

It is written by Robert Pepper who used to be a Mod (rmp) on this forum and occasionally drops back in.

http://www.l2sfbc.com/sites/pacfar.drupalgardens.com/files/201308/LRW-BestOffroad2.pdf

[TerryO]

At no time have I ever said a D4 would not get down that track.
What I would say, in a Defender you wouldn't get this problem:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/230457-drying-carpets.html
Unlike Chops, I wouldn't want to pinstripe a nice looking car. Others will attest to the care I take of the finish of the Commodore.
What I like about my Landrovers is, tho clean the inside, you hose it out.
Do you do that with your D4?


Yep
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/626.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5691.jpg.html)



While you might think being able to hose out your vehicles is most important, someone else might consider crumple zones, air bags and state of the art stability control as far more important for their and their family's safety. To be frank I would rather have a head on traffic accident in a dirty carpeted D3/4 than a freshly hosed out Defender. But this isn't about dirty carpets or airbags.

But Mick if it comes down to the test of whether a D3/4 can be hosed out or not to be considered areal off roader then a Defender wins.
But again this thread isn't about things like that, please reread my original post about what we are actually trying to compare here, being each vehicles off road prowess in comparison.

[BobD]

All the talk about pin stripes has got nothing to do with capability. My D4 was pin striped within the first week of buying it for $65,000. It is fully pin striped and track worn inside, outside and underneath. I bought it for touring and track driving and whatever the cost, that is what it is used for.

[jon3950]

What I like about my Landrovers is, to clean the inside, you hose it out.
Do you do that with your D4?


Hosing out a Puma is not quite the same as hosing out an earlier model, there's still a fair bit of electrickery to be careful of in there.

I've hosed my Discos out a couple of times (unintentionally) with no ill effects, except for a rear parking sensor which took a little while to dry out.

Cheers,
Jon

[strangy]

I think the D3/4 is probably better off road out of the box.
By that I mean new for new or near new. With average drivers.

I put a disclaimer on the above as once the vehicles reach "older" through Kim's or age.
Then it's the Defender.

[AnD3rew]

Again Mick sorry but I see nothing that is to challenging in that track for either a D3 or D4 with decent tyres.

However you more than likely inadvertently have also made one of my main points. The cost, you would not risk high dollar vehicle down that track, but that is what late model Defenders now are, high dollar vehicles with asking prices often roughly the same as similar vintage D4's.

As for $20k you can buy a modified D3 pretty easy and it would drive that track with similar sized tyres to a standard 110 with just as much ease any day of the week, you more than likely wouldn't even need a spotter. ... ;)

As for $5,000 vehicles, well there are plenty of highly modified D1's for sale and they will easily do the trick.

Anyway so far this is a very interesting discussion.

Yep I have taken my D3 on tracks like that and more regularly. And I can attest as a witness that Terry and some of the other crazies on here take their Discos on some tracks MUCH worse than that I was too chicken to try.

[Rugrat]

D4 or 110. Great question - loved my 110 and had that for 7 years. Put it places it really shouldn't have gone and felt comfortable doing it. Now I have gotten old and enjoy lattes the D4 still goes the same places - now I will qualify that I haven't and won't put it some places but that's due to the "niceness" of the car. It's handled tracks easier than the 110 did and by tracks I mean things similar to Mick_Marsh's photo.
For comfort and ease of driving - D4
For the hard throw at type and ruggedness - then go a fender...

But I would take either over many others.
The Disco do with class what the fender does to a level when the fender steps out on its own with sheer ruggedness.

[scarry]

I guess there's another angle that needs to be considered as well. I was assuming a new Puma with traction control as thats what I've ordered. there would be a considerable difference in the ease of offloading (not necessarily the capability) between a my2015 Defender with traction control and a 200TDI with none.

Regards,
Tote

Slightly off topic...

This is interesting,a wheel sensor was playing up on the Defender a while back and therefore the Traction Control/ABS was disabled at times.

My son had it on Fraser island.He found the capability of the vehicle dropped off considerably,when TC was not operational.

Whether this was because of his driving style, as the vehicle was not how he was used to it,is debatable.

[~Rich~]

Yep I have taken my D3 on tracks like that and more regularly. And I can attest as a witness that Terry and some of the other crazies on here take their Discos on some tracks MUCH worse than that I was too chicken to try.

Terry - crazy, well join the club!
Gave mine a pounding last year.
Keeps on ticking just like a Timex. ;)

[MrLandy]

Apart from the character vs luxury debate, the big difference between Defenders and Disco's is long term ruggedness and chassis strength.

If you go bush occasionally buy a Disco. If you go bush all the time get a Defender.

Or, if you have 90K to spend, buy two Defenders. A low km newish one for $55K for the future and an older one for bush work now for $25K. You will have $10K left over for accesories, rego, insurance, servicing. Both will hold their value much better than a new Disco and you will have more fun IMO.

Defender for $90K? It's a limited edition and too expensive.

[MrLandy]

Slightly off topic...

This is interesting,a wheel sensor was playing up on the Defender a while back and therefore the Traction Control/ABS was disabled at times.

My son had it on Fraser island.He found the capability of the vehicle dropped off considerably,when TC was not operational.

Whether this was because of his driving style, as the vehicle was not how he was used to it,is debatable.

My Defender traction control barely even activates on sand. It wouldn't matter if it was working or not.

[Graeme]

the big difference between Defenders and Disco's is long term ruggedness and chassis strength.Do you have any evidence to support this statement?

[Toxic_Avenger]

Is the D4 monocoque?

[Graeme]

No.

[gghaggis]

Apart from the character vs luxury debate, the big difference between Defenders and Disco's is long term ruggedness and chassis strength.



The T5 Disco 3 / 4 and RRS have the strongest chassis LR have ever built. The strongest CV joints. And the strongest axles. People often confuse "ruggedness" with "reliability", and "reliability" with "enough knowledge to repair".

From new, I took my D3 through tracks far worse than any shown here (LandAndy can attest to that). Pinstriping was never a hindrance. Neither the occasional dent. As I used to say - if I wasn't going to use it, I'd buy a Jaguar. Same went for the L320 Sport - which won the W4 Challenge 2014 and was runner-up 2015 (to a Range Rover) ahead of a plethora of modified Deefers. Same goes for our D4, and now our L494 Sport.

If you're willing to use it the way it was meant, a D4 will run rings around a Defender off-road. "Are you willing" is really the issue. And if you're of the opinion a Defender is better in sand, then you're either not preparing correctly, or your approach to off-road driving needs to be modified (this would be a great time to plug my 2-day sand course for Terrain Response vehicles, but I'll show restraint and put it in a more appropriate thread).

A 110 Defender is cheaper, easier for the traditional mechanic to repair, and easier to load up and clean out. But it's not a better off-roader.

Cheers

Gordon

[TerryO]

Apart from the character vs luxury debate, the big difference between Defenders and Disco's is long term ruggedness and chassis strength.

If you go bush occasionally buy a Disco. If you go bush all the time get a Defender.
.


I thought I would let a few others comment about this before I did. As has been explained that chassis on a late model Disco, RRS is incredibly strong and robust, so is the monocuque body that is bolted to it, that is why they weigh so much.

There is a huge lack of knowledge by Defender owners about their late model cousins and this often leads to interesting comments like the one I have quoted above and responded to here.

You will not find more than a couple of discussions in this section over the ten years the T5 platform has been used in these vehicles about broken axles or CV's, even though I know one bloke who is pretty good at breaking them.

As of about three years ago one can buy a ARB front locker for your D3, mind you don't know anyone that has yet, as far as I know you can't buy aftermarket axles, crown wheel and pinions, CV's or different diff ratio's etc for a D3/4/RRS and there is a reason for that. They is no market for them.

How many discussions are there in the Defender section about replacing OEM drive train parts with aftermarket axles, CV's, Lockers, pegging etc etc? The answer is many dozens. How much money would Ashcroft alone make out of Defender owners? The answer is squillions, add in Detroit, ARB and the others and I bet they are all going to cry when LR stop building the present model Defenders.

The reality by far is the chassis and running gear in a D3/4/RRS is easily much stronger and far more reliable then any similar aged Defender / Puma. Given the many problems Puma's used to have with their six speed gearboxes and clutches the same could be said for most if not all of the running gear. Nothing is ever perfect and there will always be failures but the never ending list of failures with Defenders both old and new is pretty astounding and seriously undermines this long held belief by Defenders owners that their vehicles are stronger and more durable.

If I was a potential new model Defender owner, which I might be, I would be hoping LR don't throw away the Discovery's T5 platform when they stop building D4's and that they use it as the basis for the new soon to be released better stronger and more reliable Defender.

Anyway back to which is more capable off road with the same size and spec tyres.

[LandyAndy]

Gordon is crazy.Seen him do stuff in a brand new D3 that a normal person wouldnt do in a bashed up series:D:D:D:D:D:D
Gordon,Aaron40 and I just both discovered how poor the 19" tyres are in soft deep sand over the last few days.Until then we had Ron trading in his yet to be delivered Defender on a D4:):):):):):) Something about the quietness,the smoothness of the 8 speed,oh,and the way it can take off with a 1.5 tonne camper trailer hanging off the back,and the economy doing so;);););););););)
It seems anything over 20lbs wont work.15lbs went well,BUT the tyres look almost flat on hard ground.Aaron did get stuck with 25lbs trying to park off the traffic track.Was impresed how well the max tracks worked.
We both decided we need 18" rims if we want to do much beach work.We also discussed doing the sand training at some stage.
Mine got stuck a few times too,was able to get it out by airing down futher.The sand there at Horrocks seemed coarser and softer than we are used to in the south west.All 3 of us believe our D2s wouldnt have had dramas.Having said that,that sand could have been hard for D2s,didnt have one handy to try;););)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/724.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/20160107_160716_zpstvychlvm.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/357.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/20160107_160634_zps2nv7ensj.jpg.html)

Andrew

[rick130]

Dare I suggest the reasons the D3/4 doesn't do CV's and drive shafts is a combination of tyre size (diameter, most only have problems with the Defender CV's once they get past 33" tyres, we won't mention the P38 diff and Sals axles were definitely made from cheddar) sophisticated TC (less shock loading on the drive line) and probably better design and material spec (which wouldn't be hard compared to some of the Deefer stuff, it is crap, and LR have continually downgraded specs over the last twenty five years, the last twelve months capping it off by installing an inferior 2 gear centre diff)

[gghaggis]

Gordon is crazy.Seen him do stuff in a brand new D3 that a normal person wouldnt do in a bashed up series:D:D:D:D:D:D
Gordon,Aaron40 and I just both discovered how poor the 19" tyres are in soft deep sand over the last few days.Until then we had Ron trading in his yet to be delivered Defender on a D4:):):):):):) Something about the quietness,the smoothness of the 8 speed,oh,and the way it can take off with a 1.5 tonne camper trailer hanging off the back,and the economy doing so;);););););););)
It seems anything over 20lbs wont work.15lbs went well,BUT the tyres look almost flat on hard ground.Aaron did get stuck with 25lbs trying to park off the traffic track.

Andrew

Book into the next sand training in Perth - dates should be up next week. You'll get the AULRO moderator's discount ;-)

[gghaggis]

Dare I suggest the reasons the D3/4 doesn't do CV's and drive shafts is a combination of tyre size (diameter, most only have problems with the Defender CV's once they get past 33" tyres, we won't mention the P38 diff and Sals axles were definitely made from cheddar) sophisticated TC (less shock loading on the drive line) and probably better design and material spec (which wouldn't be hard compared to some of the Deefer stuff, it is crap, and LR have continually downgraded specs over the last twenty five years, the last twelve months capping it off by installing an inferior 2 gear centre diff)

All that's true, but LR have continually stated that the T5 is the strongest they have ever built, independent of any other factors.

Cheers

Gordon

[TerryO]

Book into the next sand training in Perth - dates should be up next week. You'll get the AULRO moderator's discount ;-)

Charge Andrew double Gordon for taking the discussion off topic. ... :angel:

... ;)

[rick130]

The T5 Disco 3 / 4 and RRS have the strongest chassis LR have ever built.

Cheers

Gordon

Strongest or stiffest Gordon ?

Big difference.

Look at a truck chassis and they have the torsional rigidity of a wet noodle.
They aren't stiff, but they can cope easily with heavy loads as they are strong.

I can imagine the T5 chassis is immensely stiff and very strong, lots of FEA would have gone into it, the Deefer chassis was just a deeper section version of the RRC/Disco 1 chassis with stiffening plates added for the 130 which would have been drawn up on a big drawing board 35 years ago.
It's still pretty strong even though it's only about 2mm wall and probably much stronger than its Japanese competitors that use a much shallower box section.

[SimmAus]

My D4 has been on some interesting off road trips. With other vehicles, including Defenders (highly modified ones at that)
The question "which is better" is clearly subjective to each persons needs.

Comfort, ease, versatility, reliability and safety the D4 is miles ahead.
"Real driving", character, repairability with a coat hanger and duct tape the Defender wins.

If money was no object I'd own one of each. Unfortunately the money Gods (and SWMBO) dictate that 1 capable off-roader is all I can afford, so my $ said the answer was a Disco.

[justinc]

As a repairer of both of these vehicle types from early 110 county to 2015 defenders and first up 2005 d3 all the way to current these are my thoughts... ( sorry if i am not helping here Terry just adding my 2c quickly) I have had a few d3 worked very hard and yes a broken cv or 2 and trashed wheel bearings, EPB siezed cables and ground away shoes, hydro bushes and lower ball joints , transfer case and spline wear, torque converter oil leaks from ground away seal due to sand and mud packed into bellhousing....😮😮, leaking shocks and all rear bushes, twice. and all this on ONE vehicle...😈. I have also seen the same if not worse on many , many defenders . ( minus of course the epb and other non defender issues) my point is that the both of them are capable and tough in their own ways but can still suffer from neglect or abuse causing failure and in many cases huge devaluation.
My thoughts on chassis strength between the two are that like everything else on a defender hasn't changed much in 35years and still does its job well☺ the D3 and on chassis is so, so strong and shows just what market leading design can do. I don't expect to see any of these corrode away or fail anytime soon. To the 'normal' user the Disco is a highly capable totally sublime offroad performer that is just brilliant on the highway too. The defender is on a different level and is aimed at a different use and demographic but is just at ease on the same tracks most of the time if driven correctly. Me personally?? Everytime I drive a SDV6 D4 i want one. Everytime I drive my 110 i am thankful i alreasy have an iconic vehicle and I'm thankful for that 😅😅

JC

[rar110]

Dare I suggest the reasons the D3/4 doesn't do CV's and drive shafts is a combination of tyre size (diameter, most only have problems with the Defender CV's once they get past 33" tyres, we won't mention the P38 diff and Sals axles were definitely made from cheddar) sophisticated TC (less shock loading on the drive line) and probably better design and material spec (which wouldn't be hard compared to some of the Deefer stuff, it is crap, and LR have continually downgraded specs over the last twenty five years, the last twelve months capping it off by installing an inferior 2 gear centre diff)

Im amazed LR has done this. LRs marketing Depts biggest Achilles heal is its reliability (old news) which every reviewer throws into their report.

So what does LR do, release a My2016 defender that is the pinnacle of that product? No. Revive the unreliability reputation with a 2 pinion diff and iffy gearbox, that LR has worked hard (ie spent millions) to rebuke with a world class product (not perfect by any means) like the D3, D4, Freelander, Evoque, RRS & RRV. Strategically, WTF?

[rick130]

Im amazed LR has done this. LRs marketing Depts biggest Achilles heal is its reliability (old news) which every reviewer throws into their report.

So what does LR do, release a My2016 defender that is the pinnacle of that product? No. Revive the unreliability reputation with a 2 pinion diff and iffy gearbox, that LR has worked hard (ie spent millions) to rebuke with a world class product (not perfect by any means) like the D3, D4, Freelander, Evoque, RRS & RRV. Strategically, WTF?


Yep.

[justinc]

Another bit from me;
Watching those vids from Murray (RIJIDIJ) on you tube of Isuzu Counties up the cape idling their way through some challenging terrain fully loaded etc and seeing vids of d3 and 4 taking on some gnarly rocks with a wheel 4ft in the air and the ETC working to get it over the obstacle just shows the amazing diversity of LR. These 2 vehicles are so different yet wear the same badge.

I think we are going to find it very hard to give you a satisfactory answer Terry.

Jc

[justinc]

Yep.

Yep

[TerryO]

Another bit from me;
Watching those vids from Murray (RIJIDIJ) on you tube of Isuzu Counties up the cape idling their way through some challenging terrain fully loaded etc and seeing vids of d3 and 4 taking on some gnarly rocks with a wheel 4ft in the air and the ETC working to get it over the obstacle just shows the amazing diversity of LR. These 2 vehicles are so different yet wear the same badge.

I think we are going to find it very hard to give you a satisfactory answer Terry.

Jc


Actually I reckon it's going along just fine Justin, this is a discussion that is long overdue and much needed.

Thank you for taking part in this discussion and sharing your wealth of knowledge and experiences.

[manic]

Keep it simple. Both out the showroom and onto serious offroad tracks the D4 will get damaged before the defender gets stuck.

Ergo the defender is better for extreme offroad.

Simple. Case closed.


That said, if you spend 90k on a 50k defender you're a mug.










Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[gghaggis]

Keep it simple. Both out the showroom and onto serious offroad tracks the D4 will get damaged before the defender gets stuck.

Ergo the defender is better for extreme offroad.

Simple. Case closed.



Really? Not my experience. And that was "straight off the showroom floor" (well, 2 months later).

Cheers

Gordon

[gghaggis]

Strongest or stiffest Gordon ?

Big difference.

Look at a truck chassis and they have the torsional rigidity of a wet noodle.
They aren't stiff, but they can cope easily with heavy loads as they are strong.

I can imagine the T5 chassis is immensely stiff and very strong, lots of FEA would have gone into it, the Deefer chassis was just a deeper section version of the RRC/Disco 1 chassis with stiffening plates added for the 130 which would have been drawn up on a big drawing board 35 years ago.
It's still pretty strong even though it's only about 2mm wall and probably much stronger than its Japanese competitors that use a much shallower box section.

I never said the Defender chassis wasn't strong - it's one of the best in its class. I simply made the factual statement that the D4's is stronger, in reply to a statement that the Defender's was.

Cheers

Gordon

[AnD3rew]

Keep it simple. Both out the showroom and onto serious offroad tracks the D4 will get damaged before the defender gets stuck.

Ergo the defender is better for extreme offroad.

Simple. Case closed.


I wouldn't take that as read, not sure that is actually the case. The Defender does have the edge with ground clearance, but the traction control systems in the Disco are awesome and it is no slouch on clearance either. I am constantly amazed by what the Disco can crawl over without grounding, particularly if you have Llams or rods and can manually go to extended mode.

[1nando]

Before i get blasted, this is my 2 cents.

I know you said to compare both in standard form, but lets face it......you've bought into the greatest 4wd badge on earth and want to go bush.

The discovery offers excellent capability out of the box......but thats it. Theres not really much room for improvement due to its sophisticated setup.

The defender offers the best starting point to build the best 4wd possible.

If i had 10k to spend on both the defender would out pwrform the disco everday of the week. All this whilst easier to maintain and cheaper too.

[AnD3rew]

Before i get blasted, this is my 2 cents.

I know you said to compare both in standard form, but lets face it......you've bought into the greatest 4wd badge on earth and want to go bush.

The discovery offers excellent capability out of the box......but thats it. Theres not really much room for improvement due to its sophisticated setup.

The defender offers the best starting point to build the best 4wd possible.

If i had 10k to spend on both the defender would out pwrform the disco everday of the week. All this whilst easier to maintain and cheaper too.

I would be interesting to see that done. One person start with a standard Disco and the other with a standard Defender. Give the defender up to $10k to spend, and allow the Disco up to $2k to upgrade tyres and add Llams and a compressor bash plate. Then take them both off road for a week on a range of terrains, and have drivers swap half way through and then allow them to choose either one at the end. It would be interesting to see the results both in terms of performance and preference of the drivers. I'm still betting that there wouldn't be a huge difference in performance and that from a comfort perspective most would choose the Disco.

[DiscoMick]

The Defender doesn't need much spent on it to go almost anywhere. The D4 already has lots of trickery on it to achieve similar results to the Defender. But, the D4 costs about $30k more to achieve similar results. Much of that $30k is spent on cosmetic things the typical Defender owner doesn't want anyway.
I bought our Defender because I wanted a capable workhorse with a roomy body. All it needs is HD front springs for the weight of the bullbar and winch, airbags in the rear for towing and a new set of tyres - the originals have done 70,000ks. In contrast, our son's Hilux has had a heap spent on the suspension and tyres and I'm not convinced it's necessary.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[AnD3rew]

The Defender doesn't need much spent on it to go almost anywhere. The D4 already has lots of trickery on it to achieve similar results to the Defender. But, the D4 costs about $30k more to achieve similar results. Much of that $30k is spent on cosmetic things the typical Defender owner doesn't want anyway.

Yeah, things like airbags :angel:

[DiscoMick]

Yeah, things like airbags :angel:

True, airbags would be good. Still, I was thinking thinking of the complex systems on the D4.
I think the D4 is superb - easily the best in its class. Its versatility is amazing. It leaves vehicles like Landcruisers, Patrols, Jeeps, Prados and the like looking very second rate.
In my case, I wanted something more work like, simpler etc. I like that the hard plastic trim can be banged by a load of building materials (we are renovating) and just needs wiping down or I can get mud all over the floor and just wipe it out. I like that any half-decent mechanic can service or fix it with the right parts. I like that Defender owners wave to each other. Its just horses for courses.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[steane]

Buy whichever one fries your burger. Take it as far off-road as YOUR limits allow and it's still unlikely to be as far as either vehicle is actually able to take you.

Comparing D4s to Defenders is like comparing Spitfires to F18s. Kind of pointless.

And I'd rather fly the Spitfire ;)

[nate_110]

the real issue is that if you drive a disco no one would wave to you :D

[rar110]

the real issue is that if you drive a disco no one would wave to you :D

If you drive a Vogue, you're more likely to get the bird.

[BigJon]

If you drive a Vogue, you're more likely to get the bird.

I have only noticed one lower class nobody give me the bird whilst I have been on the Queen's Highways in my Vogue. Although One does not tend to look at the lower class when One's horseless carriage is as good as a Vogue.

[1nando]

Ive watched the complete series of Low range with Roothy, Gleno and Keno.

During a few episodes Gleno was driving the d4.....great car, amazing off the shelf capability but at a compromise.

You see Roothy drives Milo, a 40 series landcruiser thats 30 plus years old. Tuned to make around 69 horse power (that is not a typo) it goes everywhere, places where the D4 struggles and Roothy idles up. It comes down to some simple things:
-live axles and vehicle clearance under full flex
- tyre pressures. Pretty irrelevant on 19 inch rims on the disco
-wheel/tyre size
-good old fashioned "drive it" and not sit back relax and let the vehicle try to work out whats best. Its a 4wd not a A380 fight on auto pilot.

In my opinion a standard defender modified with:
-rear locker
-maxi rear axles and hd flanges front and back
- 255/85/16 tyres on 16 inch 0 offset rims

Will get you everywhere reliabily. You will compromise some comfort and luxury but its bush bashing.....shouldnt cost more than $8k for all those mods.

THIS IS MY OPINION, 2 cents

[TerryO]

Everything I have read is that poor old Milo breaks down and breaks bits just about ever time they take it out.

Does anyone really expect a show that is built around a old bloke and his really old Toyota to say; Hey guess what? this brand new sparkling Pommy Land Rover is much better than the obsolete unreliable old Jap thing we drive and the show is built around?

I remember a few years back the old school on here were preaching that live axles and coil springs were just new fangled rubbish and not a reliable or proper suspension system and any proper decent four wheel drive had leaf springs and was called a Series and anything that was called Defender was just a play thing and not a serious 4x4, though they kind of begrudgingly accepted Counties as being half decent if they were Isuzu powered.

I bet there are still blokes around who still think the same, so if you have taken notice then this argument about, what by some is considered as new technology, has been argued all before and needless to say in fifteen years time when Disco's all by then come out with some form of nuclear powered electronic reverse gravity hover suspension then the D3/4/5/6 owners will argue about how the new stuff is useless and if it doesn't have air suspension then it's not a serious 4x4 ... if by then some 100+ year old Series owner is still able to type by then they will still be arguing ... nope! your all wrong it's all about leaf springs.

[strangy]

.... when Disco's all by then come out with some form of nuclear powered electronic reverse gravity hover suspension ....
If it's anything like a current hover board it will just catch fire and burn the house down.

[Dagilmo]

I bet there are still blokes around who still think the same, so if you have taken notice then this argument about, what by some is considered as new technology, has been argued all before and needless to say in fifteen years time when Disco's all by then come out with some form of nuclear powered electronic reverse gravity hover suspension then the D3/4/5/6 owners will argue about how the new stuff is useless and if it doesn't have air suspension then it's not a serious 4x4 ... if by then some 100+ year old Series owner is still able to type by then they will still be arguing ... nope! your all wrong it's all about leaf springs.



This is exactly why I stopped reading 4X4 Action. Got sick of reading about how if it wasn't a Toyota or Nissan of a certain age it couldn't possibly go bush. Just boorish garbage......


Though I'm not sure what to read now after reading the editorial two issues ago in 4x4 Australia defending the VW emissions cheating program. The Amarok praised in the text with the add on the opposite page was a nice touch I thought.....

[DiscoMick]

I've seen Milo when it was a battered old wreck. It appears a small fortune has been spent keeping it on the road. Its certainly not unbreakable.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[manic]

I remember a few years back the old school on here were preaching that live axles and coil springs were just new fangled rubbish and not a reliable or proper suspension system and any proper decent four wheel drive had leaf springs and was called a Series ...


Is aulro that old!?

[1nando]

Everything I have read is that poor old Milo breaks down and breaks bits just about ever time they take it out.

Does anyone really expect a show that is built around a old bloke and his really old Toyota to say; Hey guess what? this brand new sparkling Pommy Land Rover is much better than the obsolete unreliable old Jap thing we drive and the show is built around?

I remember a few years back the old school on here were preaching that live axles and coil springs were just new fangled rubbish and not a reliable or proper suspension system and any proper decent four wheel drive had leaf springs and was called a Series and anything that was called Defender was just a play thing and not a serious 4x4, though they kind of begrudgingly accepted Counties as being half decent if they were Isuzu powered.

I bet there are still blokes around who still think the same, so if you have taken notice then this argument about, what by some is considered as new technology, has been argued all before and needless to say in fifteen years time when Disco's all by then come out with some form of nuclear powered electronic reverse gravity hover suspension then the D3/4/5/6 owners will argue about how the new stuff is useless and if it doesn't have air suspension then it's not a serious 4x4 ... if by then some 100+ year old Series owner is still able to type by then they will still be arguing ... nope! your all wrong it's all about leaf springs.


I agree about 4wd action being very biased towards toyota and nissan, also find them quiet arrogant and ignorant in many ways.
I disagree that Milo is a hunk of junk, if thats what you call junk then thats your opinion. In my opinion i have to pay respect to a 30 odd year old truck that has done more kms and seen more of this great country than what ill ever manage to do in my landy (i have a job, a mortgage and a Mrs to stop me from doing all that, i see what i can when i get the time off).

I also agree that the d4 is a highly capable 4wd vehicle.

I also believe that it is hard and very expensive to increase the d4s capabilities beyond factory spec as it has too many fancy gadjets and is way to sophisticated to be playing around with and the rim and tyres choices are ridiculous.

I manage a sand yard, supplying building materials to builders and trades as well as transport and logistics to other sand yards utilizing our truck and dogs. What ive learned over many years of transport is that the simpler the truck the less heasdaches, the less fancy equipment less headaches, the more basic a cabin less breakages etc.....we run Hinos, Macks, Kenworths, Isuzus, Mitshubishis and let me tell you there is a reason we do not run fancy Scanias or Mercedes that have every fancy gadjet under the sun, its becuase they are not up to the sort of messy, heavy haulage work we do. Most people here say that the puma engines are not adequate in the defender and that LR should have shoved some massive v8 in the engine bay similar to the landcruiser. These people are ignornant and do not understand the principles of a working vehicle which the defender is by the way. These same people would jump in one of our truck and dogs fully loaded and say they are under powered when in fact they are top specs. They arent race trucks they are work horses and the defender is no different. They are 6 cyclinder diesel turbos, not v12 twin turbo 2 million horse power dyno queens! The puma is exactly the same principle, great bore:stroke ratio, torque where you want it and a chassis to match its intended purpose.

My 2013 110 is not as comfy as a disco, not as sophisticated as a disco, not as fast as a disco.......but when it comes to offroad id pick my defender any day of the week. If i was taking the family camping I'd take the disco.

Ps; it would be great to have a 4wd day with d4s vs defenders.....the ultimate test..anyone?

[MrLandy]

Great post 1Nando. Cheers

[1nando]

Great post 1Nando. Cheers

Thanks mate

[frantic]

The thing is by terry's rules, he's hobbled the defender.
You can put 3in bigger rubber(which in NSW would require an engineers report) on a D3/4 to keep up with a defender but terry claims you cant go the same increase on a defender? Hang on that's right a disco wont fit 35in tyres under the guards ;) hobble one horse and the other will win.
Now, lets be honest. with the exception of the "last run limited edition pack defenders" the price difference between a standard defender 110 wagon and a D4 is about $30,000(up to $60,000). Spend 1/3 of that and a D4 will not be in the same league OFFROAD. On the blacktop is totally a different matter.
$600, -25mm offset 16x8 wheels
$1500-2000+ 35 inch BFG km2 , bighorns , kuhmo kl71 etc. Now lets also be honest here cost wise how much to go from standard D4 29in to 32 inch rubber on 19in rims? Double 315/75 r16??? So for the SAME cost as 32in tyres to fit a D4's 19+ in rims what could we buy for a defender??????
$1000 Gwyn Lewis/terrafirma long travel suspension kit.
$3000 Ashcroft rear locker, axles , front ATB and axles/CV
$1000 tom woods DC prop
$400 2-3 inch lift springs
$1200 long range tank
= $9200.
$1000 eng report.

Other options like a bulbar, sliders, compressor, lights and winch are common, as is the Eng. report. BUT a bulbar on a defender is about 1/2 the price of a disco3/4 as are sliders.;)
Now for $20,000 odd, less than a D4, you have far better clearance, far better articulation, far higher load carrying capacity(close to double) better range and less to go wrong. With the offset wheels on a defender, the track if now a fair bit wider than the body reducing the chance of severe panel damage further,
Throw in that a defender with 35in rubber and a bull bar(common mods) would be around 2.2 ton compared to a D4 on 32in tyres with a bulbar winch and other common mods nudging 3 ton. This is over 1/3 extra weight you must find traction for in mud, uphill and through sand.

[LandyAndy]

Who invited all these knuckle draggers in here:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

[MrLandy]

Who invited all these knuckle draggers in here:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

Troglodytes you mean? I don't know LatteAndy... 😜 Rumour is that the Disco 5 has a built in milk frother!

[LandyAndy]

Troglodytes you mean? I don't know LatteAndy... 😜 Rumour is that the Disco 5 has a built in milk frother!

All in good fun mate.
I just went on a fishing trip with a soon to be brand new Defender owner and new D4 owner.Judging on his culinary skills and tastes he should have bought a D4.US 2 D4 owners didnt bring the italian coffee and coffee machine;);););););) He WAS a D2 V8 owner:):):):):):):)
Andrew

[jon3950]

I can't see how comparing vehicles in essentially standard trim hobbles the Defender. That implies you need to substantially modify the Defender to make it any good which is clearly not true.

Its great that a Defender is easier to modify, but its irrelevant to this discussion.

The cost of the Disco is also irrelevant as you are paying for a lot of stuff that is not related to off-road ability - like airbags.

These factors may mean the Defender is a better choice for some but they don't effect off-road capability in standard form.

Cheers,
Jon

[MrLandy]

I can't see how comparing vehicles in essentially standard trim hobbles the Defender. That implies you need to substantially modify the Defender to make it any good which is clearly not true.

Its great that a Defender is easier to modify, but its irrelevant to this discussion.

The cost of the Disco is also irrelevant as you are paying for a lot of stuff that is not related to off-road ability - like airbags.

These factors may mean the Defender is a better choice for some but they don't effect off-road capability in standard form.

Cheers,
Jon

Exactly.

[MrLandy]

All in good fun mate.
I just went on a fishing trip with a soon to be brand new Defender owner and new D4 owner.Judging on his culinary skills and tastes he should have bought a D4.US 2 D4 owners didnt bring the italian coffee and coffee machine;);););););) He WAS a D2 V8 owner:):):):):):):)
Andrew

Totally brother.
Now you're talking my language! 👍 😊 He's welcome to join the Defender realm in my book, quality over quantity, pragmatic, excellent taste by the sound of it. ...What kind of coffee machine? 😜

[tact]

I can't see how comparing vehicles in essentially standard trim hobbles the Defender. That implies you need to substantially modify the Defender to make it any good which is clearly not true.

Its great that a Defender is easier to modify, but its irrelevant to this discussion.

The cost of the Disco is also irrelevant as you are paying for a lot of stuff that is not related to off-road ability - like airbags.

These factors may mean the Defender is a better choice for some but they don't effect off-road capability in standard form.

Cheers,
Jon

Contrary view: I think it's fair to talk about the price difference and what could be added to a defender for the value of the price difference.

Why? Because the OP is being a little unfair (or illogical) to start with the proposition "since there is little price difference, let's compare stock for stock". When the Defender that is close to a base disco price is not at all a "stock" defender. The defenders at that price point are limited edition specials.

So if "similarly priced vehicles" is a key part of this comparo - then option up truly "stock" defender until price points are similar. Of course a new defender with that much money thrown at it will certainly out-perform off-road against a stock Disco of similar price. That's a no brainer and really of no profit to consider further.

Or.... If truly intended to be a "stock to stock" comparo then remove the "similarly priced" comments and acknowledge that there is a huge price difference, yet not a lot of difference between the vehicles and their off-road performance in stock trim.

The OP specified a comparison of off-road prowess. So all the extra cost of the disco relevant to airbags and comfort must still be taken into account as it is not really adding to the off-road prowess of the disco - thus this added cost is a waste when it comes to the OP's comparo purposes.

The stock defender does not impose this added cost, delivers similar or perhaps better off-road performance (keep comfort and road handling out as its excluded by OP).... So Defender wins given the OP's comparo parameters.

[frantic]

I can't see how comparing vehicles in essentially standard trim hobbles the Defender. That implies you need to substantially modify the Defender to make it any good which is clearly not true.

Its great that a Defender is easier to modify, but its irrelevant to this discussion.

The cost of the Disco is also irrelevant as you are paying for a lot of stuff that is not related to off-road ability - like airbags.

These factors may mean the Defender is a better choice for some but they don't effect off-road capability in standard form.

Cheers,
Jon
No a 10% increase ,as stated by OP Terry,for the d3/4 tyre size is not standard trim, it's an engineering report in Nsw. ;)
All I'm saying is give the defender the same parameters in percentage and not even saying $$$ wise. ( p.s you know the airbag equiped d1-2 was close in price to the defender new and we all know that 32 in rubber on a 19 in rim will cost 50% more than a 35 in tyre on a 15/16 in rim)) :D
Give both equal, up 10% tyres, strengthening required and in the d3/4 can't you fit a bit of equip to fool air suspension to give a "lift" ? The difference between that and a set of + 50-75mm springs plus longer travel shocks/mounts is?

[Meken]

You would be referring to goe rods or llams - under $100 for former about $600 for latter (guys correct me if I'm wrong)
And unlike a spring / body lift you can easily revert to stock road height when you are not off-roading

[Tombie]

I'm sure that emotion will always be of more significance than capability when making these comparisons however;

One terrain which would show a big difference in your vehicle comparison is tea tree swamp land. Weight is your enemy... Power just sends you deeper... An extra 500kg is more than enough to sink your day... An extra tonne will certainly send you south. The extra weight of the disco with the lower ground clearance will end in winching.

Steve

I'd almost agree if Lara wasnt heavier than my D4 is in touring spec :cool:

[DiscoMick]

In base spec the Defender and D4 are probably similar off road, except for the Discos 19 inch tyres, which are more easily punctured than the Defender's 16s. But the Disco costs about 30k more to get a similar result. Spend 30k on the Deefer and the Disco wouldn't keep up, I reckon. Would a stock D4 stay with this?


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Tombie]

Offroad is so subjective...

On the Maralinga trip I'm running next year post Melrose I can assure you the Defenders will be the handicapped vehicles on the rough roads....

So touring rough corrugated outback (offroad) the D4 will be far superior.

Clambering rocks - depending on the precise composition and layout the Defender is a likely winner...

[Tombie]

In base spec the Defender and D4 are probably similar off road, except for the Discos 19 inch tyres, which are more easily punctured than the Defender's 16s. But the Disco costs about 30k more to get a similar result. Spend 30k on the Deefer and the Disco wouldn't keep up, I reckon. Would a stock D4 stay with this?

I can take you to a local track where the D4 would walk away from that and leave it floundering...

I can then take you 300mtrs to the right of that track and have the complete opposite...

[AndyG]

Offroad is so subjective...

On the Maralinga trip I'm running next year post Melrose I can assure you the Defenders will be the handicapped vehicles on the rough roads....

So touring rough corrugated outback (offroad) the D4 will be far superior.

Clambering rocks - depending on the precise composition and layout the Defender is a likely winner...

Toombie, is that a closed trip or open to ring ins ?

[AndyG]

A lot of us recreational 4WDers get a vehicle to live the dream, for example

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/183389-nuggets-defender-130-build-37.html post 363

To me this is the ultimate off road trip, but 99.9 % of us will never do anything like it.
Up the Defenders alley , definitely
A D4 ( never driven one declaration) but given tyre profiles and GVM, it probably could, but would you? And staying inside GVM legal limits is a reasonable expectation.

Saying that, and assuming the luxury tax finally goes say in 2019, a full size Rangie, no disrespect D4, will do me fine, for the big lap.

[Tombie]

Toombie, is that a closed trip or open to ring ins ?

Open, will be departing post Melrose event 2017...

[MrLandy]

A lot of us recreational 4WDers get a vehicle to live the dream, for example

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/183389-nuggets-defender-130-build-37.html post 363

To me this is the ultimate off road trip, but 99.9 % of us will never do anything like it.
Up the Defenders alley , definitely
A D4 ( never driven one declaration) but given tyre profiles and GVM, it probably could, but would you?

I've been out that way a few times over the years. Stunning country. A combination of vehicle preparation, local knowledge and respecting the intercultural bush telegraph are key.

Been in my 98 Defender, a Tojo Troopy, a Tojo 60 series and a Patrol. Defender easily the best at negotiating corrugated and sandy tracks as well as that trackless country. Clearance, robust chassis, four coils and fuel economy too. Low centre of gravity also makes a big difference IMO. Troopy tough but way too top heavy and rear axle heavy, especially with leaf springs. (I know of one mid 2000's Troopy that blew both diffs and gearbox on corrugated roads out there). 60 series sits well on the road and very solid too, but low hanging leaf springs front and back are a problem in desert sand. Patrol had woeful over bonnet visibility essential for picking the right path between tyre killing spikes and washouts and an uninspiring 4WD system. Never felt confident of not getting bogged in patrol. Also both Tojos and Patrol very thirsty on fuel out there in the sand and working hard in the heat. Don't under estimate the heat! 50 degrees is common.

A D4 out there? Hmm low profile tyres would be shredded, air suspension very susceptible to damage, I'd feel like I was driving a city car in the desert. No doubt you can prep a D4 for a trip like that, but a Defender is far more suited out of the box IMO. Ideally with any vehicle an uprated radiator and new water pump, hoses, as well as water carrying capacity for human consumption would be highest on my list, as well as heavy duty AT / LT tyres and at least two spares.

[~Rich~]

I've been out that way a few times over the years. Stunning country. A combination of vehicle preparation, local knowledge and respecting the intercultural bush telegraph are key.

Been in my 98 Defender, a Tojo Troopy, a Tojo 60 series and a Patrol. Defender easily the best at negotiating corrugated and sandy tracks as well as that trackless country. Clearance, robust chassis, four coils and fuel economy too. Low centre of gravity also makes a big difference IMO. Troopy tough but way too top heavy and rear axle heavy, especially with leaf springs. (I know of one mid 2000's Troopy that blew both diffs and gearbox on corrugated roads out there). 60 series sits well on the road and very solid too, but low hanging leaf springs front and back are a problem in desert sand. Patrol had woeful over bonnet visibility essential for picking the right path between tyre killing spikes and washouts and an uninspiring 4WD system. Never felt confident of not getting bogged in patrol. Also both Tojos and Patrol very thirsty on fuel out there in the sand and working hard in the heat. Don't under estimate the heat! 50 degrees is common.

A D4 out there? Hmm low profile tyres would be shredded, air suspension very susceptible to damage, I'd feel like I was driving a city car in the desert. No doubt you can prep a D4 for a trip like that, but a Defender is far more suited out of the box IMO. Ideally with any vehicle an uprated radiator and new water pump, hoses, as well as water carrying capacity for human consumption would be highest on my list, as well as heavy duty AT / LT tyres and at least two spares.

I went out to the geographical centre of the Simpson in my D3, all the pssengers swapped between vehicles - a 05 modified Patrol, 05 modified Pajero and my 05 D3. Everybody loved the comfort of the D3 especially over the mogul mounds and corrugations, there was no comparison. It did it so easily.
In fact it was the Patrol which had the issues including having to be left north of the French line in the desert for a week due to a stuffed alternator pulley which had to flown into Birdsville and taken back out repaired and driven back to Birdsville without brakes due to a cracked chassis!
Not a puncture between the 3 vehicles even though I did carry 2 spares as did everyone else.
Would I do it again in this D3 - yes most definitely.

[MrLandy]

I went out to the geographical centre of the Simpson in my D3, all the pssengers swapped between vehicles - a 05 modified Patrol, 05 modified Pajero and my 05 D3. Everybody loved the comfort of the D3 especially over the mogul mounds and corrugations, there was no comparison. It did it so easily.
In fact it was the Patrol which had the issues including having to be left north of the French line in the desert for a week due to a stuffed alternator pulley which had to flown into Birdsville and taken back out repaired and driven back to Birdsville without brakes due to a cracked chassis!
Not a puncture between the 3 vehicles even though I did carry 2 spares as did everyone else.
Would I do it again in this D3 - yes most definitely.

Good to hear Rich, glad you had a good trip and good experience with your D3. Very interesting to hear of both Defender and Disco drivers experiences in remote areas. Cheers

[jon3950]

I'm not suggesting that price and ease of modification aren't advantages, just that they are irrelevant to this discussion.

The premise of the argument was that you can now pay as much for a Defender as a Disco, so is it worth paying that to get more off-road capability? I'd say no, but there are other reasons for doing it.

To say you need to spend $30k extra on a Disco to get the same capability is missing the point because you get a hell of a lot more than off-capability for your money. Whether or not those extras are worth it to an individual is a separate argument.

This discussion is particularly relevant to me because in a couple of weeks I am swapping my 3 year old D4 for a new Defender. To all intents and purposes I am paying the same amount for a Defender as a Disco. I love both vehicles but know I'm getting a lot less car for the money with the Defender. I still want to make the swap for many reasons but off-road capability as such is not one of them.

There are pros and cons for both vehicles off-road but the biggest disadvantage for a new Disco is its 19" rims. I've got mine into a lot of places on 19"s but there is no escaping the fact that they are a liability off-road and this would always swing it in favour of the Defender for me. However, its not worth spending the same money as a Disco for that reason alone.

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

Get rid of the 19"s, fit 18"s with decent rubber and the D4 will eat those remote trips.

That is not to say a Defender isn't a better choice of vehicle, but the Disco is far more robust and capable than some probably realise.

Cheers,
Jon

[tact]

I'm not suggesting that price and ease of modification aren't advantages, just that they are irrelevant to this discussion.

The premise of the argument was that you can now pay as much for a Defender as a Disco, so is it worth paying that to get more off-road capability? I'd say no, but there are other reasons for doing it.

To say you need to spend $30k extra on a Disco to get the same capability is missing the point because you get a hell of a lot more than off-capability for your money. Whether or not those extras are worth it to an individual is a separate argument.

This discussion is particularly relevant to me because in a couple of weeks I am swapping my 3 year old D4 for a new Defender. To all intents and purposes I am paying the same amount for a Defender as a Disco. I love both vehicles but know I'm getting a lot less car for the money with the Defender. I still want to make the swap for many reasons but off-road capability as such is not one of them.

There are pros and cons for both vehicles off-road but the biggest disadvantage for a new Disco is its 19" rims. I've got mine into a lot of places on 19"s but there is no escaping the fact that they are a liability off-road and this would always swing it in favour of the Defender for me. However, its not worth spending the same money as a Disco for that reason alone.

Cheers,
Jon

You can pay nearly Disco price for a new defender (has to be a limited edition), but it's a choice. You don't (didn't) have to. A standard model (would have). Come at a much lesser price for "much less vehicle".

Likely there are good reasons to buy limited editions. No argument. Am only pointing to the special price attached to special editions does not apply for non-specials. For the OP comparo purposes a special edition at that price point is not a requirement.

For the OPs purpose a standard model, not a special, is well below disco price, delivers similar or better off-road performance. Even if "much less of a vehicle"

"Much less vehicle for the price" is only relevant comment when talking special edition defender. It doesn't have to be so.

Edit: (I.e. It can (could have) been a "much less vehicle for much less price" situation - yet still delivering as good or better off-road performance)

[TerryO]

It's obvious that few of our Defender owning cousins have bothered to read the originalpost to see the guidelines for this comparison.

There was no restriction on wheel size, just tyre size, being about the Defender standard size of about 32". so a Disco owner could run anything from 17" through to 20" rims if they so wish, me myself I would and do run 17" rims when I have gone off roading with Defender's previously and with the BFG Muddies I run the tyre size is, from memory, 31.7" more then enough height to keep up or lead any Defender on similar sized tyres.

Any D4 owner can buy a set of Gordons 18" trick alloys and many have which totally opens up the choice on tyres. I know of at least two D4 owner who have fitted D3/4 2.7 callipers and have run 17" alloys, I have bought a new set of 17's that I intend to fit to our D4 eventually and guess what I will get it engineered as well no problem at all. So this whole argument about restricted tyre size by Defender owners is a weak one if that is meant to prove that late model Disco's aren't as good off road as a late model Defender with both vehicles on roughly the same size Defender tyres. You guys really need to find a better reason other than rim size for this comparison.

As for prices I have done some interesting comparing, I will put those results up a bit later.

[MrLandy]

I'm not suggesting that price and ease of modification aren't advantages, just that they are irrelevant to this discussion.

The premise of the argument was that you can now pay as much for a Defender as a Disco, so is it worth paying that to get more off-road capability? I'd say no, but there are other reasons for doing it.

To say you need to spend $30k extra on a Disco to get the same capability is missing the point because you get a hell of a lot more than off-capability for your money. Whether or not those extras are worth it to an individual is a separate argument.

This discussion is particularly relevant to me because in a couple of weeks I am swapping my 3 year old D4 for a new Defender. To all intents and purposes I am paying the same amount for a Defender as a Disco. I love both vehicles but know I'm getting a lot less car for the money with the Defender. I still want to make the swap for many reasons but off-road capability as such is not one of them.

There are pros and cons for both vehicles off-road but the biggest disadvantage for a new Disco is its 19" rims. I've got mine into a lot of places on 19"s but there is no escaping the fact that they are a liability off-road and this would always swing it in favour of the Defender for me. However, its not worth spending the same money as a Disco for that reason alone.

Cheers,
Jon

Very interesting post Jon. So you're saying your three year old D4 is worth about the same as a new 110 and that you're changing over for personal reasons?

That must be a difficult decision given how much everyone seems to love their D4's. I guess warranty and long term ownership might come into it, but I hope it's mainly for the character :).

I hope you love the character of your new Defender and that this outweighs the reduction in creature comforts. Although I reckon the seating position in a Defender is without peer and also with aircon and TC it's a great balance between utilitarian, functional and comfortable. I prefer the utilitarian nature of my newish Defender over a more luxurious vehicle, partly because I don't worry so much about getting it dirty, but also because the seating position and drive ability of the Defender suits me better. It's not as heavy and feels more nimble on all roads.

Best wishes

[tact]

I'm not suggesting that price and ease of modification aren't advantages, just that they are irrelevant to this discussion.


It is very relevant. You could have paid AUD$832,743 for a special edition factory Defender. (The 2millionth one). You could pay near disco price for a special edition.

But why would you? When you could choose a much less expensive non-special for the comparo.

Yes - the OP's "now you can pay as much as a disco" is his premise - but is that realistic or valid when don't (didn't) have to pay that much.

Totally different matter and totally valid if the standard models were all at near Disco price levels. But they aren't.

The comparo can be made more valid if it is no longer "compare stock models now they are at similar prices" and is changed to "let's compare a special edition defender to a stock disco, now that they are similarly priced" then fine.

In this latter (theoretically adjusted) comparo specifically between the more expensive special edition defender and a disco:
- you can not say you are paying more for less vehicle. The premium paid for a special edition defender is for intangibles like special badges, paint, upholstery, etc. You wouldn't pay the premium if you thought it not worth the premium.

- the special edition premium features don't add to the special defender's "off-road performance" - off-road performance being a key part of the OPs comparo requirement.

- just like the onroad performance and safety features of the disco (comes with the disco price) don't make it any better off-road either

Now you got yourself a real comparo. Two premium priced vehicles delivering premium features which don't enhance off-road performance. Neither vehicle a case of "less vehicle for the price". Both deliver similar off-road performance.

Decision then comes down to whether, for the price, you want a disco like every other new disco owner has (along with its luxuries and gizmos). Or do you want a relatively rarer and distinctive special edition Defender. Choice will be decided by what you value more. Neither the lesser vehicle. (Overall, or off-road)

[MrLandy]

And the third option is two Defenders for the price of one D4 (or Special Edition Defender with inflated price). A new(ish) 110 for $50K and a new(ish) 90 for $40K. Choose one for bush work and one for posterity :cool:

[TerryO]

I'm not so sure why some are so hung up about prices, yes I did comment about it but it is only a small part of this and doesn't effect one way or the other off road ability in this comparison, I have some stats on prices though that make for interesting reading when I get a chance to write it all up later.

As for the more important points when comparing off road ability, so far after reading back through all the comments it would appear that there is not much argument about D3/D4's having a stronger and more sturdy chassis, axles, cv's, diff's, gearbox, possibly drive shafts.

I think several other things can be added to that list as well starting off with better brakes and stability control, engines.

Others please feel free to add both strengths and weaknesses.

[MrLandy]

I'm not so sure why some are so hung up about prices, yes I did comment about it but it is only a small part of this and doesn't effect one way or the other off road ability in this comparison, I have some stats on prices though that make for interesting reading when I get a chance to write it all up later.

As for the more important points when comparing off road ability, so far after reading back through all the comments it would appear that there is not much argument about D3/D4's having a stronger and more sturdy chassis, axles, cv's, diff's, gearbox, possibly drive shafts.

I think several other things can be added to that list as well starting off with better brakes and stability control, engines.

Others please feel free to add both strengths and weaknesses.

Ooh provocative, I like it!

It would be good to hear more from specialist indies who work on and drive both everyday, as to their thoughts on your above list of what is stronger / better...

[Disco Muppet]

I wouldn't buy a puma. I think they're coming close to knocking the P38a off the throne for least reliable land rover.
I don't like the ergonomics, there are that many things on any defender that I'd want to 'fix' before I could happily live with it that I find the idea of forking out $40-50k for one about as appealing as cleaning my teeth with diesel. Plus, to make it what I'd want would cost even more. I don't care that it can do xyz in stock trim, if I'm buying a car I'm damn well making it my own.
The list of things I'd want to add to a D4 would be a hell of a lot shorter than the list of things I'd want to add to a Defender.
IF I were building a Defender, I'd start with a manky old county and build it from the ground up with a motor of my choice, and several major changes.
I'm at the point where I'm starting to think about the future of a family, and I wouldn't really feel that happy about sticking my family in a Defender, short of it having a few basic (in my view) safety additions, and thats even without airbags.
Yes, sadly, the D4 is more of a throwaway vehicle, there aren't many that get stripped down to the chassis and born again as a totally different vehicle, but I think they represent far better value for money than a Puma.
And I'm not paying the Defender tax for a 20 year old vehicle :p

[Tombie]

Buying a D4 has caused me no end of grief...

Bugger all to do on the damn thing to make it awesome [emoji41]

[jon3950]

Very interesting post Jon. So you're saying your three year old D4 is worth about the same as a new 110 and that you're changing over for personal reasons?

That must be a difficult decision given how much everyone seems to love their D4's. I guess warranty and long term ownership might come into it, but I hope it's mainly for the character :).

I hope you love the character of your new Defender and that this outweighs the reduction in creature comforts. Although I reckon the seating position in a Defender is without peer and also with aircon and TC it's a great balance between utilitarian, functional and comfortable. I prefer the utilitarian nature of my newish Defender over a more luxurious vehicle, partly because I don't worry so much about getting it dirty, but also because the seating position and drive ability of the Defender suits me better. It's not as heavy and feels more nimble on all roads.

Best wishes

Apologies to Terry if this is too far off topic but I think it has some relevance to the discussion.

Yes, I'm basically breaking even swapping the 3 year old D4 for a new (non limited edition) 110.

I do love my Disco. Its a brilliant vehicle and I will be very sorry to see it go. In reality it is a far more suitable vehicle for my needs than a Defender as it does everything I need it to do really well. Warranty and long term ownership were not part of the equation, nor was off-road capability.;)

I'm getting a Defender because they are fun to drive.

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

It is very relevant. You could have paid AUD$832,743 for a special edition factory Defender. (The 2millionth one). You could pay near disco price for a special edition.

But why would you? When you could choose a much less expensive non-special for the comparo.

Yes - the OP's "now you can pay as much as a disco" is his premise - but is that realistic or valid when don't (didn't) have to pay that much.

Totally different matter and totally valid if the standard models were all at near Disco price levels. But they aren't.

The comparo can be made more valid if it is no longer "compare stock models now they are at similar prices" and is changed to "let's compare a special edition defender to a stock disco, now that they are similarly priced" then fine.

In this latter (theoretically adjusted) comparo specifically between the more expensive special edition defender and a disco:
- you can not say you are paying more for less vehicle. The premium paid for a special edition defender is for intangibles like special badges, paint, upholstery, etc. You wouldn't pay the premium if you thought it not worth the premium.

- the special edition premium features don't add to the special defender's "off-road performance" - off-road performance being a key part of the OPs comparo requirement.

- just like the onroad performance and safety features of the disco (comes with the disco price) don't make it any better off-road either

Now you got yourself a real comparo. Two premium priced vehicles delivering premium features which don't enhance off-road performance. Neither vehicle a case of "less vehicle for the price". Both deliver similar off-road performance.

Decision then comes down to whether, for the price, you want a disco like every other new disco owner has (along with its luxuries and gizmos). Or do you want a relatively rarer and distinctive special edition Defender. Choice will be decided by what you value more. Neither the lesser vehicle. (Overall, or off-road)

In my case I am getting less vehicle for the price as I am swapping my D4 for standard 110. OK its newer but the 3 year old Disco would probably be more reliable. :D

But you are right in saying its the intangibles that make up the value. My point was that for neither vehicle is it the off-road capabilities out of the box, as both have it in spades - just in a different form.

Pretty much everything that has been identified so far are just examples of other features that are important to people - like the ability to modify, or comfort, or price.

Cheers,
Jon

[Stuart02]

I'm getting a Defender because they are fun to drive.

Cheers,
Jon

Hands down best reason!

[Meken]

Buying a D4 has caused me no end of grief...

Bugger all to do on the damn thing to make it awesome [emoji41]


So you find yourself having to spend time with family insread of your "project" ;)

[LandyAndy]

So you find yourself having to spend time with family insread of your "project" ;)

No he has to spend time modifying his good ladys 90 to make it awesome;);););)
Andrew

[TerryO]

If it's a all about having a non D3/4 off road driving experience without airbags and driving aid's other than lockers then one of these will fill the hole easily for a fraction of the price, you can buy or build a very high spec D1 that is extremely capable off road with all the bells and whistles for well less than $10k if you shop around and that allows you to still have a D3/4 without breaking the bank and a D1 by the way is still more comfortable than a Defender.

A well set up and modded D1 can and will do anything a Defender 110 with 35's, twin lockers and a big suspension lift can do. ... :p

This is my one, it's the only Disco I have with a actual name, it's called the Mountain Goat, for obvious reasons.

Added further comment below;

However even I digress this discussion is about newish Defenders (Puma's) v D3/4's. It's nice to get feedback from people who drive old pre Puma Defenders but unless they are talking about Puma strengths and weaknesses then sorry but anything they say really isn't relevant to this discussion.

If you guys want to start another comparo about how modified D1's and D2's compare to your modified 300 tdi's and td5's that's fine but let's keep this relevant please. I be happy to join into that little discussion as well and I bet there are far more D1/2 owners who would love to give opinions on what they think of your good old Defenders in a thread like that as well.

[MrLandy]

I'm getting a Defender because they are fun to drive.

Cool 😎

[Meken]

Out of the box... D4 has deeper wading & greater ground clearance - not taking account of the extended height that will lift it to 310mm clear. (Can you mod a defer to get 310mm under the axle )
104274
104275

[manic]

A well set up and modded D1 can and will do anything a Defender 110 with 35's and twin lockers can do. ... :p

Yeah they can be fun but they loose out to the defender, when they rot out we salvage their motors, GB, tc, axles and engine. The rest goes to scrap. Sad really, I quite like the d1 but they are being sacrificed for a greater good. :p

[Marty110]

Can you mod a defer to get 310mm under the axle

maybe with drop boxes on the axles (portals) but at around $12-15,000 if you can find them still. But then you still have the weak rover rear diff as we are looking at current Deefers vs D3/4. Dont get me wrong, I love Deefers and still miss my Puma and my 300Tdi even more...... but really enjoy the drive to 4x4 tracks in my RRS - remember, unless you live alongside where you 4x4 you have to drive to get there and the D3/4 or my RRS will do it more comfortably, more economically and safer (but not the OP's original brief). I will take my Sport anywhere I took my Deefers by the way although the Deefers were a lot more 'connected' to the drive.

[AndyG]

Out of the box... D4 has deeper wading & greater ground clearance - not taking account of the extended height that will lift it to 310mm clear. (Can you mod a defer to get 310mm under the axle )
104274
104275

A question asked in ignorance, does the height options vary the axle clearance or the body clearance.

[Marty110]

A question asked in ignorance, does the height options vary the axle clearance or the body clearance.
unlike a spring lift in a Deefer, which does not increase clearance under the diff, the air suspension 'lift' increases clearance under the diffs in the D3/4/RRS as the diffs are 'fixed' to the chassis - this means however that angularity of the axles increases, so there's always a compromise. Straight out of the box there is more clearance under the diffs due to how they are mounted. The only way to increase clearance under the diffs in a Deefer is with bigger diameter tyres, which has legal limitations depending on what State you live in, or with portal axles, or if you have a rear Salisbury diff, by shaving the housing.

[AndyG]

In terms of irrelevant comparisons, the carrying capacity of a HD 110, which I regret not buying, 1000 kg, vs?.

End of the day both bloody good, but different, Raquel Welch vs Marilyn Monroe, showing my age now :p

Oh, and a 110 has a tray option.

[steane]

Yeah they can be fun but they loose out to the defender, when they rot out we salvage their motors, GB, tc, axles and engine. The rest goes to scrap. Sad really, I quite like the d1 but they are being sacrificed for a greater good. :p

And for the 2030 refit of my 300TDi Deefer, I might consider the engine from a D4 which will (the whole car) be worth about $1.25 by then. I'll probably just go straight to electric though.

Discos exist to loose their owners a lot of money and keep Deefers on the road and appreciating.

It's a symbiotic relationship that is unparalleled in the motoring world.:p

[AndyG]

Mirror mirror tell me about 2018 Defender

D4 drive line, classic shape made safe :p

[rar110]

A question asked in ignorance, does the height options vary the axle clearance or the body clearance.

Yes. The EAS on a D3/4/RRS/RRV lifts the body and F/R diff. Unlike a live axle in a 90/110/130 the diff in a EAS LR is fixed to chassis or motor and goes up with the body when the suspension is raised.

[TerryO]

If it's a all about having a non D3/4 off road driving experience without airbags and driving aid's other than lockers then one of these will fill the hole easily for a fraction of the price, you can buy or build a very high spec D1 that is extremely capable off road with all the bells and whistles for well less than $10k if you shop around and that allows you to still have a D3/4 without breaking the bank and a D1 by the way is still more comfortable than a Defender.

A well set up and modded D1 can and will do anything a Defender 110 with 35's, twin lockers and a big suspension lift can do. ... :p

This is my one, it's the only Disco I have with a actual name, it's called the Mountain Goat, for obvious reasons.

Added further comment below;

However even I digress this discussion is about newish Defenders (Puma's) v D3/4's. It's nice to get feedback from people who drive old pre Puma Defenders but unless they are talking about Puma strengths and weaknesses then sorry but anything they say about older Defenders really isn't relevant to this discussion.

If you guys want to start another comparo about how modified D1's and D2's compare to your modified 300 tdi's and td5's that's fine but let's keep this relevant please. I be happy to join into that little discussion as well and I bet there are far more D1/2 owners who would love to give opinions on what they think of your good old Defenders in a thread like that as well.


I have updated my post from yesterday with an added final two paragraphs in bold (please read) as this excellent discussion is being taken off course.

[SBD4]

Mirror mirror tell me about 2018 Defender

D4 drive line, classic shape made safe :p
It'll be a D4! :p

[frantic]

It's obvious that few of our Defender owning cousins have bothered to read the originalpost to see the guidelines for this comparison.

There was no restriction on wheel size, just tyre size, being about the Defender standard size of about 32". so a Disco owner could run anything from 17" through to 20" rims if they so wish, me myself I would and do run 17" rims when I have gone off roading with Defender's previously and with the BFG Muddies I run the tyre size is, from memory, 31.7" more then enough height to keep up or lead any Defender on similar sized tyres.

Any D4 owner can buy a set of Gordons 18" trick alloys and many have which totally opens up the choice on tyres. I know of at least two D4 owner who have fitted D3/4 2.7 callipers and have run 17" alloys, I have bought a new set of 17's that I intend to fit to our D4 eventually and guess what I will get it engineered as well no problem at all. So this whole argument about restricted tyre size by Defender owners is a weak one if that is meant to prove that late model Disco's aren't as good off road as a late model Defender with both vehicles on roughly the same size Defender tyres. You guys really need to find a better reason other than rim size for this comparison.

As for prices I have done some interesting comparing, I will put those results up a bit later.

This tyre issue is the point I was making.
Give BOTH the same parameters.
Your disco 4 will increase by 10% tyre size from 29in to 32in with different wheels, brakes and an eng. Report.
Do the same to a defender, 10% tyres=35in 16x8 -25mm wheels and an eng report.
.
As to a modified d1/2 being better than any defender, 100in chassis has better ramp over than a 110/130 but not better than a 90 which again given same modification parameters would eat the d1 ;), same axles, better approach, departure and ramp as well as far Less weight.

[Tombie]

This tyre issue is the point I was making.
Give BOTH the same parameters.
Your disco 4 will increase by 10% tyre size from 29in to 32in with different wheels, brakes and an eng. Report.
Do the same to a defender, 10% tyres=35in 16x8 -25mm wheels and an eng report.
.
As to a modified d1/2 being better than any defender, 100in chassis has better ramp over than a 110/130 but not better than a 90 which again given same modification parameters would eat the d1 ;), same axles, better approach, departure and ramp as well as far Less weight.

Only catch there - in SA the Defender wouldnt pass the swerve test to gain engineering approval...

[manic]

I have updated my post from yesterday with an added final two paragraphs in bold (please read) as this excellent discussion is being taken off course.

Td5/puma vs d3/d4 ?

The parameters for this discussion are oddly skewed. Simpler to ask; 'whats better offroad , a brand new defender or brand new d4?' And compare them off the showroom floor.

Otherwise we are looking at price for price mods with the inevitable conclusion - defender wins.







Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[frantic]

Only catch there - in SA the Defender wouldnt pass the swerve test to gain engineering approval...

What speed is the swerve test?
Numerous have passed here in nsw at 80 kph, some at 100kph depending on the eng.
The OP is from Yass so nsw eng. Applies. Not sure if another states eng approvals still carry across, if they did you could move here for a week then take it back.

Yes very skewed, thanks manic. Either same mods or zero mods, as soon as you say D4 gets $3-5,000 worth of wheels/tyres but defender not allowed zip it's a skewed.

[Marty110]

but not better than a 90 which again given same modification parameters would eat the d1 ;), same axles, better approach, departure and ramp as well as far Less weight.
Except the 90 tends to lift a rear wheel going downslope with a cross slope due to shorter wheelbase - I've seen it when a 90 rolled (gently) on the same track and line my 110 Puma navigated. Sorry OP for off post.

[Graeme]

Your disco 4 will increase by 10% tyre size from 29in...BTW std diameter is 30".

[Tombie]

What speed is the swerve test?

Numerous have passed here in nsw at 80 kph, some at 100kph depending on the eng.

The OP is from Yass so nsw eng. Applies. Not sure if another states eng approvals still carry across, if they did you could move here for a week then take it back.



Yes very skewed, thanks manic. Either same mods or zero mods, as soon as you say D4 gets $3-5,000 worth of wheels/tyres but defender not allowed zip it's a skewed.


110km/h minimum to pass the test.

Swerve test is enter at speed, change lane within specified distance then change back. It's hard enough in a stock vehicle... [emoji41]

Agree the comparison is skewed...

In my mind the comparison at minimum should be "legal in all states" (capable of rego in all states)

[jonesy63]

In my mind the comparison at minimum should be "legal in all states" (capable of rego in all states)

Agreed - plus no engineers certificates required.

[TerryO]

Why is it skewed? All I have said is the same size tyres as the standard Defender size which is just about as big as a D4 can go easily, if a D4 owner wishes to uses Gordon's 18's then that is legal in all States. This is a comparo of these two vehicles with like v like when it comes to tyre size and spec, just as I believe every new 4x4 magazine comparo test should be on to gauge effectively which vehicle is better not which tyre.

I find it amusing that the most vocal of the Defender owners, as far as I know don't even own a 110 Puma which is one of the two vehicles in this comparo or a Puma of any sort for that matter. Have you lot even driven one in anger for any distance or for that matter a D3/4? From reading your comments I bet not, but yet several of you want to tell everyone about how much you know about all things Puma and D3/4. It's obvious from many of the comments by a number of vocal older Defender owners that some have no idea about late model Disco's at all even though they are often quite opinionated about them.

I didn't have to wait long for the 'oh it's so unfair, to make it equal we must be allowed 35's and twin lockers and a suspension lift and this, and that, and something else to make it fair.' ... Really! Is it so unfair to go bush against a D3/4 on the same size and spec tyres?
Do some Defenders owners have so little confidence in their vehicles that they feel that they need such a massive tyre advantage?

Because listening to a couple of you that is how it sounds.

[Tombie]

Hahahaha

For offroad touring I'd always choose our D4 over our Defender.

For full blown mud plugging/rock hopping I'd consider taking the Defender.

Overall the Disco is the better all round package, for nostalgic touring the Defender wins.

Does the Defender have more capability stock? Depends on the immediate terrain.

Is the Defender any more or less robust? Highly doubt it.

Off the show room floor it's a pretty even contest...

[MrLandy]

Agreed TerryO,

Tyre OD should be as close to stock as possible for comparo:
235/85R16 = 31.7 x 9.3R16 (Puma Defender)
235/80R17 = 31.8x9.3R17 (D4 17" rims)
265/65R18 = 31.6x10.4R18 (D4 18" rims)

Extra (diff) clearance and air suspension on D4 looks to be an advantage, but is it more of an advantage than the robustness of live axle and coils of Defender over the long term? Intriguing question.

Perhaps Tombie's just answered it: "Is the Defender any more or less robust? Highly doubt it. Off the show room floor it's a pretty even contest..."

I'm clearly a Defender devotee, but I've only had a brief drive of a D4, so not qualified to compare the two off road. Enjoying this thread. Cheers all.

[Chops]

Well, I watch and listen with a pain in me.

I bought my Defer (Puma 2011) in order to do Major trips, weeks away at a time in theory, therefore I needed the weight carrying capacity.
We had plans to tow it behind a Motor Home which would be our base.
Oh how things change.
In hindsight, had I known we'd end up with a camper trailer with plans to move up to a caravan instead of a bus, I'd have happily bought a D4.

My back sure lets me know I'm in the Defender :angel:
In reality I don't think many of us would use either car to its potential when out bush. I used to when I was younger, and would love to still, but as we get older and dare I say, not as fit, we get lazy and think more about what we're doing,, ie, trying to avoid working hard behind the wheel.
I doubt that many have access to lands that need exploring for the first time, and given that most have brains, I don't think many of us are willing to trash our vehicles or equipment in order to get to such places.
As has been pointed out, both vehicles have been through the same ground, ie the Simpson. Sounds to me like some have struggled and some have not, on both sides. I reckon if I had to struggle in any terrain, I'd prefer to do it in style these days ;)

[manic]

Why is it skewed? ....... This is a comparo of these two vehicles with like v like when it comes to tyre size and spec.... Is it so unfair to go bush against a D3/4 on the same size and spec tyres? .

A defender has 16" rims, you can't fit that on a D4. The D4 cannot match the Defender tyre size and spec.

You are taking a D4 and modifying it with aftermarket wheels to compare against a stock defender. Is the question, 'can a D4 be modified to be better offroad than a stock defender?'

The fairest way to evaluate which is the better model made by landrover for offroad use is to compare factory spec vs factory spec with the cars set up to go offroad as the manufacturer intended. Any improvements you make to one and not the other will skew the debate.

If you say both vehicles should have the exact same tyres, both running 18" rims then you have upgraded the D4 factory spec and downgraded the Defender spec.

[LandyAndy]

Well, I watch and listen with a pain in me.

I bought my Defer (Puma 2011) in order to do Major trips, weeks away at a time in theory, therefore I needed the weight carrying capacity.
We had plans to tow it behind a Motor Home which would be our base.
Oh how things change.
In hindsight, had I known we'd end up with a camper trailer with plans to move up to a caravan instead of a bus, I'd have happily bought a D4.

My back sure lets me know I'm in the Defender :angel:
In reality I don't think many of us would use either car to its potential when out bush. I used to when I was younger, and would love to still, but as we get older and dare I say, not as fit, we get lazy and think more about what we're doing,, ie, trying to avoid working hard behind the wheel.
I doubt that many have access to lands that need exploring for the first time, and given that most have brains, I don't think many of us are willing to trash our vehicles or equipment in order to get to such places.
As has been pointed out, both vehicles have been through the same ground, ie the Simpson. Sounds to me like some have struggled and some have not, on both sides. I reckon if I had to struggle in any terrain, I'd prefer to do it in style these days ;)

The way Deefers are appreciating in value at the moment a swap over to comfort wont be too painfull.
I recently did 2 700km trips within 4 days for a fishing trip towing the camper trailer.Got out at the end of each journey surprisingly fresh,considering I suffer from back and feet pain.
Love driving the miles in the D4,its so quiet inside,one really appreciates the hifi system.
Andrew

[DeanoH]

An interesting discussion and a credit to the contributors that it's kept basically on topic, positive and without angst. Could you imagine this discussion on the D2 forum ? :wasntme:
The OP's original question was .................. which is better bush bashing a Disco or a Defender? (but only with an additional $5K spent on the D4 that cost $30K more than the Defender to start with), which is hardly a level playing field or a fair comparison.

The terms bush bashing, off roading and 4WDing mean different things to different people with bush bashing generally meaning severe off road/no road conditions, something which clearly fits the Defenders design criteria and capabilities. Only the most one eyed D4 aficionado would consider this to be the D4's raison d'etre :).

If the D4 was intended to be a serious off road vehicle it wouldn't have 19" rims and highway licorice strap tyres as standard, it's simple as that. It's undoubtedly a very comfortable, well designed and capable high speed 'soft roader' but hardly a bush basher.

Deano. :)

[AndyG]

From a comfort position in my 110 with premium leather more than ok on a 1100 km day run, but maybe this is invalid based on the STD defer assumption.
I see a smick D4 is 115,000 vs maybe 60,00 on the LR configuration for a smick defer

[rar110]

From a comfort position in my 110 with premium leather more than ok on a 1100 km day run, but maybe this is invalid based on the STD defer assumption. I see a smick D4 is 115,000 vs maybe 60,00 on the LR configuration for a smick defer

I consider my Perentie Isri seats to be pretty good. However, then try the seats in a vogue. I wish I could find a lounge as good. Maybe I should go to the wreckers.

I suppose the comparison didn't mention comfort.

[MrLandy]

"In hindsight, had I known we'd end up with a camper trailer with plans to move up to a caravan instead of a bus, I'd have happily bought a D4.
My back sure lets me know I'm in the Defender".

Sorry to hear your back's no good in a Defender Chops. I love the upright seating position and seats of my Defender, especially off-road. So much better than anything else I've driven over the years for long drives too. Could easily do 1000km in a day. A Defender with a camper trailer sounds perfect to me for sometime down the track! But if the D6 is somehow more affordable then you never know.... hmm that's a long way down the track for me, but maybe not as far as i think!. I know one thing for sure though, it would be impossible to part with my Defender/s!
Best wishes

[LandyAndy]

An interesting discussion and a credit to the contributors that it's kept basically on topic, positive and without angst. Could you imagine this discussion on the D2 forum ? :wasntme:
The OP's original question was .................. which is better bush bashing a Disco or a Defender? (but only with an additional $5K spent on the D4 that cost $30K more than the Defender to start with), which is hardly a level playing field or a fair comparison.

The terms bush bashing, off roading and 4WDing mean different things to different people with bush bashing generally meaning severe off road/no road conditions, something which clearly fits the Defenders design criteria and capabilities. Only the most one eyed D4 aficionado would consider this to be the D4's raison d'etre :).

If the D4 was intended to be a serious off road vehicle it wouldn't have 19" rims and highway licorice strap tyres as standard, it's simple as that. It's undoubtedly a very comfortable, well designed and capable high speed 'soft roader' but hardly a bush basher.

Deano. :)

Yes those who drag their knuckles have been on their best behavior whilst on our turf.I must say we have a 10 fold consumption of latte here the moment,cant be anybody else but the visitors:):):):):):):)
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

From a comfort position in my 110 with premium leather more than ok on a 1100 km day run, but maybe this is invalid based on the STD defer assumption.
I see a smick D4 is 115,000 vs maybe 60,00 on the LR configuration for a smick defer

Mine was $80000 drive away,it is a pov pack with a dealer ordered factory package that makes it similar spec to an SE.
Andrew

[Tombie]

The terms bush bashing, off roading and 4WDing mean different things to different people with bush bashing generally meaning severe off road/no road conditions, something which clearly fits the Defenders design criteria and capabilities. Only the most one eyed D4 aficionado would consider this to be the D4's raison d'etre :).

If the D4 was intended to be a serious off road vehicle it wouldn't have 19" rims and highway licorice strap tyres as standard, it's simple as that. It's undoubtedly a very comfortable, well designed and capable high speed 'soft roader' but hardly a bush basher.

Deano. :)


I disagree... Definitely not a soft roader.. Incredibly robust chassis and driveline. Only let down by the wheel combination.

The only difference I see as a rule is a mind set thing - which Gordon for example is an anomaly!

Most won't spend $50-60k and have an issue with taking a "wobbly panelled" Defender down a scratchy track, or to jump back in covered in mud...

Most Discovery owners aren't quite like Gordon, and the mind set of "scratching up" such a machine sends shivers down their spine.

Me, I've had my D4 on rock crawl tracks, down trails 6" narrower than the vehicle - have the trail stripes to show for it... And will go anywhere someone here wants to take their "stock" Defender (and then some)... :D

I would still have either (got both :) ) and have fond memories of my very modified Defender.

By the time you take a base Defender, tick a few boxes at the dealer (Leather etc) the divide is only in the realm of $15k from a lower spec D4.

If you then have to live with that vehicle day in, day out... And you've got that extra coin... And you still want to be able to go offroad with very similar capabilities as the Defender, then the Disco is a clear winner...

For a touring offroad scenario - a D4 with a 2t offroad van on the back made easy work of tracks after Melrose last year.
Did the towing Defender (Alien) have any issues? Not at all.. There was a noticeable difference in the pace each was comfortable at. And the D4 lends itself to going much quicker in comfort...

All went very well, all did a great job... All did their task of taking people off the main tracks and into the outback.

I'd suggest choosing the vehicle you want - life's too short to have something you don't enjoy.

Discovery, Defender, Range Rover - the spirit is the same, the soul is the same...

[Chops]

Mr Landy, yes my backs bad, but, I can sit in the Defender for hours and do it fairly regularly,,,, I'd just sooner do it a bit more comfortably. And I'm not about to ball at scratches ;)
I too find the driving position excellent, as I did with the D1 and D2. My guess is, after driving the D4 for a short time although only in the city, it's position is excellent too.
The power was incredible, and so easy to take over the speed limit. Maybe in a couple of years we might get one, although I'll be working on the Mrs. To get her to think about it a bit harder. She's due for a new ride, it's a tad exy, but just maybe.
I love my Defender, it's just quirkie and of course, it shows its heritage. :D :cool:

[Celtoid]

There is both under the carport here,and have been for a good few years:)

Completely different vehicles,but the D4 does it easier in real hard off road stuff.It just seems to walk up and over things.Very little if any wheel spin,where the deefer will spin the wheels,and sometimes lose forward motion,where on the same line the D4 has crawled through.

This also depends on driver ability,tyres,etc.The D4 you don't have to 'drive' the vehicle as much as you do in the Defender.

But there are places the D4 may get panel damage,where the Deefer won't,and water crossings,to me,are more riskier in the D4 than the Deefer.

And don't forget the D4 has off road height,and extended off road height,so ground clearance is good.The Defender may win out in approach and departure angles though,particularly if you have the 40mm lift.


The panel damage issue I always felt was a big limiting issue for most D4 owners .... but for me a Deefer at $50K+ would still be a concern for owners if it got bent ..... and if the prices are now over $90K .... well, even playing field in the panel front now. Or is it .... Deefer is probably cheaper to fix being non-monocoque?

[TerryO]

I admit this is a bit off topic but for me it's another bloody good reason to own and drive such a safe and strong vehicle especially considering I transport my grand children and all the rest of the people in the world who are precious to me in it.

For those who think that the combined chassis / monocuque body of a D3/4/RRS isn't as strong as a Defenders have a look at these graphic pics and read the short report.
Then please tell what would you rather be in with your family if someone drives head on into you on a freeway at great speed, a Defender or a Disco 3/4?

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - HORRIFIC ACCIDENT WITH A D3 G4 NO#1 IN AFRICA (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic73486.html)

[Tombie]

The panel damage issue I always felt was a big limiting issue for most D4 owners .... but for me a Deefer at $50K+ would still be a concern for owners if it got bent ..... and if the prices are now over $90K .... well, even playing field in the panel front now. Or is it .... Deefer is probably cheaper to fix being non-monocoque?


D4 isn't monocoque either :)

[Tombie]

Would have been nice to see a D4 do this track.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/452.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5668.jpg.html)
I have no doubt that it could have. I just question would you want to.


I would. In a heartbeat...

[manic]

... what would you rather be in with your family if someone drives head on into you on a freeway at great speed, a Defender or a Disco 3/4?

Depends on tyre size :wasntme:

[frantic]

Agreed TerryO,

Tyre OD should be as close to stock as possible for comparo:
235/85R16 = 31.7 x 9.3R16 (Puma Defender)
235/80R17 = 31.8x9.3R17 (D4 17" rims)
265/65R18 = 31.6x10.4R18 (D4 18" rims)

Extra (diff) clearance and air suspension on D4 looks to be an advantage, but is it more of an advantage than the robustness of live axle and coils of Defender over the long term? Intriguing question.

Perhaps Tombie's just answered it: "Is the Defender any more or less robust? Highly doubt it. Off the show room floor it's a pretty even contest..."

I'm clearly a Defender devotee, but I've only had a brief drive of a D4, so not qualified to compare the two off road. Enjoying this thread. Cheers all.

Those aren't stock d4 size ;) 255/60 r18= 29.? To 30 inches depending on manufacturer;)
The ones you quoted are plus 2 in special custom offset alloys and either at or possibly mt , are they now lt as well?:D
On original tyres in original positions, how easy is it to change a wheel when your bogged with a speared tyre in deepish mud?

[Meken]

D4 isn't monocoque either :)


Yep it is - monocoque body bolted to a ladder frame chassis

If it wasn't it would be a defender ;)

[Tombie]

Yep it is - monocoque body bolted to a ladder frame chassis

If it wasn't it would be a defender ;)

So therefore, by definition it is still a body on chassis construction, just with an inherently stronger body :cool:


The T5 platform introduces a new construction method which Land Rover calls an Integrated Body-frame. In essence, this places a self-supporting steel monocoque on top of a modern-design ladder chassis to provide a massively strong structure with the refinements (tight panel gaps, fine surface finish and excellent vibration suppression) of a modern monocoque.

[Celtoid]

D4 isn't monocoque either :)


Isn't just monocoque is what you are trying to say I think;)


I was referring to the cost of a single panel replacement V the whole body of a D4 ..... the body is monocoque, the whole assembly is a monocoque body on a ladder frame .....

[D2lee]

depends what you mean by "better off road"


Defenders have more metal exterior trim hence doesn't damage so easily and no-one notices the odd scratch and dent anyway


The disco 3/4 will be spoilt by scratches and dents.


Disco 3/4 will have better offroad ability due to traction control, rear diff lock and various advanced tech.


Defender needs a hammer to fix, disco 3/4 needs a laptop (over generalising I know)


Disco 3/4 is light years ahead in every other aspect, I presume you'll be driving on road too. I have driven a defender onroad, an would not like to again.

[rick130]

Out of the box... D4 has deeper wading & greater ground clearance - not taking account of the extended height that will lift it to 310mm clear. (Can you mod a defer to get 310mm under the axle )
104274
104275

A little misleading.

OK, the diff on a live axle is what it is, unless you go to portals or taller tyres, but...

Both diffs are on the same side and there's a heap of extra height to the axle tubes on a live axle.
We all know how to place wheels and use that extra clearance when we can under the axle tubes.

When independent suspension is in bump (heavily loaded and compressed) ground clearance is reduced, it's not a static height, with a live axle our clearance is always a fixed height.

It's swings and merry go rounds.

I'm really interested to know what the clearance is under the outer ends of the lower wishbones/control arms.
Every D4 and RR I've followed looks lowish, and much closer to the ground than a Deefer (note the italics ;) )

[Celtoid]

A little misleading.

OK, the diff on a live axle is what it is, unless you go to portals or taller tyres, but...

Both diffs are on the same side and there's a heap of extra height to the axle tubes on a live axle.
We all know how to place wheels and use that extra clearance when we can under the axle tubes.

When independent suspension is in bump (heavily loaded and compressed) ground clearance is reduced, it's not a static height, with a live axle our clearance is always a fixed height.

It's swings and merry go rounds.

I'm really interested to know what the clearance is under the outer ends of the lower wishbones/control arms.
Every D4 and RR I've followed looks lowish, and much closer to the ground than a Deefer (note the italics ;) )


A D4 has active air suspension (EAS as it's tagged). It has sensors and an on on-board compressor and air reservoir. The suspension is never compressed regardless of the load.

[scarry]

A little misleading.

OK, the diff on a live axle is what it is, unless you go to portals or taller tyres, but...

Both diffs are on the same side and there's a heap of extra height to the axle tubes on a live axle.
We all know how to place wheels and use that extra clearance when we can under the axle tubes.

When independent suspension is in bump (heavily loaded and compressed) ground clearance is reduced, it's not a static height, with a live axle our clearance is always a fixed height.

It's swings and merry go rounds.

I'm really interested to know what the clearance is under the outer ends of the lower wishbones/control arms.
Every D4 and RR I've followed looks lowish, and much closer to the ground than a Deefer (note the italics ;) )

And following on from Celtoid...

The diff pumpkin and live axles can be a hindrance, in soft sand,particularly where there are deep wheel ruts, and a big hump in the middle.the independent suspension is way better,but i suppose there are those wishbones,although i have never found them to be a real issue.:)

It is all swings and roundabouts,but the D4 is way ahead in almost,if not all areas.

The Deefer does win out in character by miles…..:D

[rick130]

And following on from Celtoid...

The diff pumpkin and live axles can be a hindrance, in soft sand,particularly where there are deep wheel ruts, and a big hump in the middle.the independent suspension is way better,but i suppose there are those wishbones,although i have never found them to be a real issue.:)

It is all swings and roundabouts,but the D4 is way ahead in almost,if not all areas.

The Deefer does win out in character by miles?..:D

And deep mud.
A diff pumpkin is a PITA at times.

[Celtoid]

And following on from Celtoid...

The diff pumpkin and live axles can be a hindrance, in soft sand,particularly where there are deep wheel ruts, and a big hump in the middle.the independent suspension is way better,but i suppose there are those wishbones,although i have never found them to be a real issue.:)

It is all swings and roundabouts,but the D4 is way ahead in almost,if not all areas.

The Deefer does win out in character by miles?..:D


Not to mention the fact that in Low-Range the D4's suspension cross flow replicates a live axle by always pushing it's boots on the ground ....


So live axle like pluses without the pumpkin .... :)

[rick130]

A D4 has active air suspension (EAS as it's tagged). It has sensors and an on on-board compressor and air reservoir. The suspension is never compressed regardless of the load.

So the wheels never move up in bump ? :o

It's a kart ! :D

I'm not talking about static load height, I'm describing when the suspension is articulating. ;)

[rick130]

Not to mention the fact that in Low-Range the D4's suspension cross flow replicates a live axle by always pushing it's boots on the ground ....


So live axle like pluses without the pumpkin .... :)

That can work really well.
It's something a number of us have looked at when doing air bags on live axles too.

[LandyAndy]

Isn't just monocoque is what you are trying to say I think;)


I was referring to the cost of a single panel replacement V the whole body of a D4 ..... the body is monocoque, the whole assembly is a monocoque body on a ladder frame .....

Why cant you replace panels on a D4????
Never heard of having to replace the body due to a damaged panel.
Andrew

[BobD]

So the wheels never move up in bump ? :o

It's a kart ! :D

I'm not talking about static load height, I'm describing when the suspension is articulating. ;)



The independent suspension means going much slower in a D4 or you will hit stuff on the ground. That is the main thing you learn when going from a Patrol in my case or a Defender in this thread. The traction control and smarts usually make up for any lack of speed.


The first time I drove my D4 off road I smacked the front cross member into the ground really hard by driving through a rutted hole at the same speed as I would in a Patrol. Since I realised this I simply slow down and clearance is never a problem on anything I could drive my 2inch lifted GQ on 33's through.

[Celtoid]

Why cant you replace panels on a D4????
Never heard of having to replace the body due to a damaged panel.
Andrew


You can replace any door (ouch $), you can replace the two front fender panels, you can replace the bonnet; tailgate & hatch and all the plastic add-ons (bumpers and wheel arches) .... no question.


Ding anything from the tail lights to the engine firewall on the main panel .... you've cracked the egg.


However .... chances of doing that are?


Actually, very good point Andy ...Bugger All chance of that being an issue :-)

[frantic]

Actually a good point has been raised, repairability.;)
Simple item like a rock through a windscreen/side window. In a defender ( as long as you don't insist on a heated replacement)all you need is a good glazier to cut it to size using flat automotive approved glass, the kind most front end loaders use and a lot of trucks. In a disco it's a custom shape that has to be ordered, this could take days or over a week depending upon your location.
Panel damagability. What height do the panels start where they could be belted by a root or rock sticking out of an embankment on a slippery clay climb?
In a disco the panels curve out from the base , as is the current style, but this makes the far more susceptible to being damaged, in a defender the sliders stick out 2 inches wider than the vertical panels, and if your allowed ;) the same parameters as Terry's disco , with -25 mm offset wheels and 315 tyres your tyres also protrude several inches outside the body further reducing the chance of panel damage.
Cost, if I dent a rear or lower panel, ( in sme people's cases entire car:D )IMHO it looks fine to have a bit of aluminium cheq plate pot riveted over it costing about $20-50 a few pot rivets and cut to shape/size or order pre cut . I haven't seen any disco 3/4 drivers try that yet.:D Now what's the cost of a new panel under doors, a rear side panel, rear bumper and spray paint to match in a d4 ? And again how long to fix?

[Tombie]

Hahaha this thread is just getting silly.

Keep it up [emoji106][emoji41]

[TerryO]

Frantic again and again you keep bringing up stuff that relates to old pre Puma Defenders.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen but I have never seen a $50,000 Puma with chequer plate pop riveted to its lower panels either so why compare a 20 year old Defender to a almost new Discovery when it comes to repairs?

I can just imagine the resale value of a two or three year old Puma with 300mm of chequer plate pop riveted to all its panels.

You seem to conveniently keep forgetting that its Puma's that are in part being discussed here not old Defenders. So how about you give it a rest, fair enough?

[Meken]

104334
This is a puma

I thought we were discussing cars

[TerryO]

104334
This is a puma

I thought we were discussing cars

Ok you tell me, did LR not rename the Defender to Puma for the face lift 2006 model year on?

If they went back to calling it Defender at some stage that is fine as well but I always think of a Defender with a D3 dash in it as a Puma which the face lift 2006 model had, don't they still have a D3 dash in the new ones?

Plus for this conversation it makes it easier to differentiate between a 200TDI /300TDI Defender model and the post TD5 Puma's.

[SBD4]

Ok you tell me, did LR not rename the Defender to Puma for the face lift 2006 model year on?

If they went back to calling it Defender at some stage that is fine as well but I always think of a Defender with a D3 dash in it as a Puma which the face lift 2006 model had, don't they still have a D3 dash in the new ones?

Plus for this conversation it makes it easier to differentiate between a 200TDI /300TDI Defender model and the post TD5 Puma's.
Terry, its always been the Defender. "Puma" refers to the engine in it.

[Disco Muppet]

Have we seriously descended into arguing over what they're called? :p :Rolling:
The defender is an archaic work horse with character in spades, the discovery is a highly advanced and technically capable, comfortable vehicle that doesn't suit everyone.
Both are incredibly capable and are both better than Japanese offerings.
/thread

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[AndyG]

Nocookies | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wall-street-journal/behind-toyotas-late-move-to-selfdriving-cars/news-story/3f2b63a2eb7b9bb424b862207b29c61a)

(Head of Toyota)

Mr. Toyota said, cars should offer freedom.

?That's an element that cars should never lose,? he said. ?No matter what, cars need to win the love of their users.?

The Defender does this in spades in delivering an off road and on rod experience, are D3/D4 drivers as passionate about their cars?

Which model will original owners be patiently restoring, and fixing leaks in 2040
Which model will people be scouring Ebay in 2035 for a tidy 2015 example
Which model will people be trading in for a D5 or D6 from the whitegoods factory in Solihull without a backward look or a tear in their eye.

I think we all know which model brings the most joy to their ever patient owners.

[Disco-tastic]

So far this thread reads about 15% non-biased opinion from peiple who have driven both vehicles and know them well, and 85% peoples personal preference, with little regard to the original post comparing ability.

It is entertaining reading tho!

Maybe we should ask 4x4 overland to do a comparison?

Cheers

Dan

[Celtoid]

Nocookies | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/wall-street-journal/behind-toyotas-late-move-to-selfdriving-cars/news-story/3f2b63a2eb7b9bb424b862207b29c61a)

(Head of Toyota)

Mr. Toyota said, cars should offer freedom.

?That's an element that cars should never lose,? he said. ?No matter what, cars need to win the love of their users.?

The Defender does this in spades in delivering an off road and on rod experience, are D3/D4 drivers as passionate about their cars?

Which model will original owners be patiently restoring, and fixing leaks in 2040
Which model will people be scouring Ebay in 2035 for a tidy 2015 example
Which model will people be trading in for a D5 or D6 from the whitegoods factory in Solihull without a backward look or a tear in their eye.

I think we all know which model brings the most joy to their ever patient owners.


I think you'd be surprised by the affect a D4 has on it's owners. After driving in lots Jap offerings the first thing that springs to mind for me was the lack of character they all had compared to a D4. A D4 just has a presence about it and 'feel' that is unmatched. It is hard to describe but the car has real character compared to the others. It also has style and class that the others don't have.


If you've read any article written by D4 owners when they first get their beast, the word 'Permagrin' is almost exclusively used to describe how they feel about the car .... that is no accident. The vehicle does affect the owner.


You can also tell .... interpret.... the look on non-LR owners faces when you drive past them on Moreton or Fraser (or the like). The look comes in two forms usually and is easy to spot .... the first one being a sly admiration .... usually followed up by questions about the car. Then you have the dyed in the wool, bone headed hatred .... that is harboured by non-LR owners that are too weak to admit that they really want one.....LOL!!!


I really missed my first D4 .... it had left it's mark after 4.5 years and it feels weird being in a brand new one (months after ownership), still missing and thinking about the old one.


Maybe I'm just weird .... LOL!!!

[AndyG]

It must be the marque then

[frantic]

Frantic again and again you keep bringing up stuff that relates to old pre Puma Defenders.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen but I have never seen a $50,000 Puma with chequer plate pop riveted to its lower panels either so why compare a 20 year old Defender to a almost new Discovery when it comes to repairs?

I can just imagine the resale value of a two or three year old Puma with 300mm of chequer plate pop riveted to all its panels.

You seem to conveniently keep forgetting that its Puma's that are in part being discussed here not old Defenders. So how about you give it a rest, fair enough?
No you are ignoring the fact that a lot have it fitted.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/49826-show-us-your-deefers-2.html
Post 3230,and it looks great IMHO, I couldn't be bothered going past a few pages , but saw numerous at previous lr shows.
Another quick point, if you replace the lower kick panel with sliders like mulgo, ( your OP spec) you have around 60 cm before you hit a panel. How much do you have in a D4?
Still the d3/4 glass issue remains, unless the defenders window panels have been magically curved in the last week?
P.S puma is the FORD engine label,not the vehicles label, the ranger has 2 different puma donks, our 2.2 and the td5 3.2. The defender has had defender on its but since 200 tdi days. Also the LR2.5 td5 was called storm.

[LRD414]

...are D3/D4 drivers as passionate about their cars? ....I think we all know which model brings the most joy to their ever patient owners.
Apologies to Terry for contributing to off-topic discussion in a very interesting thread but...
Ask my wife how passionate I am about the D4. And she'd be right too. It's a mistake to assume they are unloved because you see many of them on shopping trolley / soccer mum duty.

I hope the thread gets back on track but I suspect there'll be a few more D3/D4 owners with similar comments to mine.

Anyway, Gordon has a very interesting and instructive video of a Puma 110 and RRS going over the same difficult terrain. Not sure if it's public on YouTube but would be very useful for this thread.

Scott

[TerryO]

Our D3 is ten years old, its scratched, dented and knocked about more than most ten year old 4x4's. Does it have character? you bet it does and it has it in spades. It is the most enjoyable vehicle I have ever owned both on and off road and I have no intention of selling it.

In my personal opinion it ranks above a Defender because it does so well quietly behind the scenes what everyone automatically believes the Defender is king at, that being off road prowess.
Put these vehicles on the same spec and size tyres and a Disco is every bit as capable if not more, I actually believe they are more capable and that is even a early model D3 like mine that I'm talking about. LR have suppoesedly dramatically improved the Terrain Responce on several occasions since the first D3's, so I can only guess how good the new ones are now.

We have hardly taken the D4 off road since buying it over 18 months ago but that is because of work more than anything else, so can't really compare but even a MY10 is now fairly old hat compared to the later updated 2012 and then the even later 8 speed models.

The one thing I do know is late model Disco's are vehicles that the vast majority of their owners bulld a strong relationship with, so for those that think a Puma sorry Defender is the only vehicles out there with character, all I would say is, once again your knowledge of other LR products is very limited.

[Meken]

Would have been nice to see a D4 do this track.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/452.jpg (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/mick_marsh_AULRO/media/Glenreagh/2015/Sundays%20Drive/DSC_5668.jpg.html)
I have no doubt that it could have. I just question would you want to.


Not rocky but muddy / slippery & rutted / washed out
104336
104337

[manic]

Frantic again and again you keep bringing up stuff that relates to old pre Puma Defenders.

I'm not saying it wouldn't happen but I have never seen a $50,000 Puma with chequer plate pop riveted to its lower panels either so why compare a 20 year old Defender to a almost new Discovery when it comes to repairs?

I can just imagine the resale value of a two or three year old Puma with 300mm of chequer plate pop riveted to all its panels.

You seem to conveniently keep forgetting that its Puma's that are in part being discussed here not old Defenders. So how about you give it a rest, fair enough?

As long as its had the defender badge the body has been near enough the same. Brand new pumas get checker plate, have seen it. Panel damage repair/prevention for 'defender' wagons is same as always, puma engine makes no difference.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[manic]

, so for those that think a Puma sorry Defender is the only vehicles out there with character, all I would say is, once again your knowledge of other LR products is very limited.

You love your disco. That's great. But its clear now that you set this thread up to enjoy your own view. I'm cool with that, its a forum for fanatics, I'm with you. But if you actually want listen to reason, you'll hear the truth. It is insane to truly believe the d3/d4 is better suited to offroad use than a defender. :). Never again will they build a 4x4 that can be properly abused, rebuilt and abused again and again

Terry I can see you lying under your disco, marvelling at the wish bones. You got it bad! :thumbup:

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

Terry, its always been the Defender. "Puma" refers to the engine in it.


"Puma' was the Ford engine family name, it's just a Tdci Defender in Land Rover language AFAIK.

Just for point of reference, 'Storm' was the code name given by Land Rover for the TD5 (and that's how my ex-Land Rover engineer mate used to refer to it) and believe it or not the Tdi code name was 'Gemini'. :o

[Marty110]

Brand new pumas get checker plate, have seen it.


Here's mine with factory ally plate, 2010 model "Puma", took it off and fitted custom sliders after all that

[Tombie]

Why choose.. [emoji41]

[Toxic_Avenger]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/430.jpg

Amen brother!

[roverrescue]

Welcome back Tombie ;)

but seriously - put the bigger than OEM tyres as mentioned for this test on a D3,4 well then the vehicles mass and allowable GVM is probably the biggest real off road difference compared with a defender.

oh and also the fact the D3,4,5,6 are and will be ugly ;)

s

[TerryO]

You love your disco. That's great. But its clear now that you set this thread up to enjoy your own view. Smug. I'm cool with that, its a forum for fanatics, I'm with you. But if you actually want listen to reason, you'll hear the truth. It is insane to truly believe the d3/d4 is better suited to offroad use than a defender. :). Never again will they build a 4x4 that can be properly abused, rebuilt and abused again and again

Terry I can see you lying under your disco, marvelling at the wish bones. You got it bad! :thumbup:

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app


No need to make this personal Manic. Condescending smartarse comments do little other than to raise people's blood pressure and cause escalation. Either keep it on track and leave the personal comments out of it or leave the discussion thank you.

[manic]

No need to make this personal Manic. Condescending smartarse comments do little other than to raise people's blood pressure and cause escalation. Either keep it on track and leave the personal comments out of it or leave the discussion thank you.

:thumbdown: sorry it came across that way. This is your thread, I was on topic. The sprinkle of tongue in cheek banter hit off the mark. Not a personal attack or condescending.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using AULRO mobile app

[Toxic_Avenger]

This thread is trolling. Troll responses should be welcomed for what they are- a silly response to a silly question.

We're all in this together, but pointless argument is pointless. Just like the Holden Vs Ford debate, the answer is muddied by varied beliefs, preferences, and what people value.
Actually this thread is more like comparing a late model Ex Autosalon Commodore Versus a 5 series BMW. Someone will be frothing over the fully sick bass, as it rattles the numberplate off the trunk lid, while others will prefer the ride and refinement which they bought to drive their trophy wives to the golf club.
Both get you A>B, but some people prefer 150dB @ 80Hz, others just like to get there with class, while spending waaay too much money getting there.

[manic]

This thread is trolling. Troll responses should be welcomed for what they are- a silly response to a silly question.

We're all in this together, but pointless argument is pointless. Just like the Holden Vs Ford debate, the answer is muddied by varied beliefs, preferences, and what people value.
Actually this thread is more like comparing a late model Ex Autosalon Commodore Versus a 5 series BMW. Someone will be frothing over the fully sick bass, as it rattles the numberplate off the trunk lid, while others will prefer the ride and refinement which they bought to drive their trophy wives to the golf club.
Both get you A>B, but some people prefer 150dB @ 80Hz, others just like to get there with class, while spending waaay too much money getting there.

Yeah except a d4 is better than a commodore and a defender better than a BMW.


OK I'm out. It was fun for a while. Love em all.

* Blasted nexus signature be gone *

[Toxic_Avenger]

Maybe it was a bad example, but some questions are best left unanswered...

[LandyAndy]

Guys this thread has been going for 20 pages,its been quite entertaining at times.Lets see if we can get another 20 pages without anybody getting their knickers in a knot.
THANKS FELLAS.
Andrew

[dingsy]

Can you even put bigger tyres on a D4? As many above had said i would be happy to take a D4 off road in terms of capability ( and I think it would be very relaxed to drive) but I would wince every time I pinstriped it.

[LandyAndy]

Can you even put bigger tyres on a D4? As many above had said i would be happy to take a D4 off road in terms of capability ( and I think it would be very relaxed to drive) but I would wince every time I pinstriped it.

Of course you can,its the D4 3.0lt that has the 19" wheel issue wich basically has no tyre upgrades.One has to buy expensive speciality 18" wheels to get the 18" selection which do let you increase tyre rolling diameter significantly.There are only 2 manufacturers of wheels that will fit.
Andrew

[SimmAus]

Both vehicles will take you where you want to go 99% of the time
Damage to Deefer is said to add character; Damage to a D4 said to make you cry.
My D4 has proud pinstripes and 2 dents from off-roading (strangely, alongside Defenders, going everywhere they went, just a little more comfortably)
I'm thankful that I can recall the damage event; (hitting that random tree, and countless overgrown tracks) and not be the victim of an out of control Woolies trolley ;-)
I did purchase one of these though:

[jon3950]

But if you actually want listen to reason, you'll hear the truth. It is insane to truly believe the d3/d4 is better suited to offroad use than a defender. :). Never again will they build a 4x4 that can be properly abused, rebuilt and abused again and again


I find this an odd argument. My new Defender is costing me $60k. I don't want to abuse it any more than I wanted to abuse my Disco. I do want to enjoy using it offroad as much as I have enjoyed the Disco.

Repairing panel damage on a Defender is just as expensive to do properly as it is on a Disco. That fact that you are able to live with a battered vehicle has more to do with its age and condition.

I'm not knocking that but would you be happy going out and bending panels on a new Defender that you just shelled $60k or more out on? If not its irrelevent to this argument, which is about the offroad capability of new vehicles.

Cheers,
Jon

[SPROVER]

Our D3 is ten years old, its scratched, dented and knocked about more than most ten year old 4x4's. Does it have character? you bet it does and it has it in spades. It is the most enjoyable vehicle I have ever owned both on and off road and I have no intention of selling it.

In my personal opinion it ranks above a Defender because it does so well quietly behind the scenes what everyone automatically believes the Defender is king at, that being off road prowess.
Put these vehicles on the same spec and size tyres and a Disco is every bit as capable if not more, I actually believe they are more capable and that is even a early model D3 like mine that I'm talking about. LR have suppoesedly dramatically improved the Terrain Responce on several occasions since the first D3's, so I can only guess how good the new ones are now.

We have hardly taken the D4 off road since buying it over 18 months ago but that is because of work more than anything else, so can't really compare but even a MY10 is now fairly old hat compared to the later updated 2012 and then the even later 8 speed models.

The one thing I do know is late model Disco's are vehicles that the vast majority of their owners bulld a strong relationship with, so for those that think a Puma sorry Defender is the only vehicles out there with character, all I would say is, once again your knowledge of other LR products is very limited.

You have just answered your own question now. 😆 I guess this thread can be closed. 😃 lol

[1nando]

Wow TerryO......creating a post to reassure your ego is a waste of every bodies time and energy.

Type in "land rovers toughest vehicle" into google and see what comes up........its a defender not a discovery with a bloke wearing some fancy polo shirt drinking a mocha latte frape chino.

[1nando]

I agree about 4wd action being very biased towards toyota and nissan, also find them quiet arrogant and ignorant in many ways.
I disagree that Milo is a hunk of junk, if thats what you call junk then thats your opinion. In my opinion i have to pay respect to a 30 odd year old truck that has done more kms and seen more of this great country than what ill ever manage to do in my landy (i have a job, a mortgage and a Mrs to stop me from doing all that, i see what i can when i get the time off).

I also agree that the d4 is a highly capable 4wd vehicle.

I also believe that it is hard and very expensive to increase the d4s capabilities beyond factory spec as it has too many fancy gadjets and is way to sophisticated to be playing around with and the rim and tyres choices are ridiculous.

I manage a sand yard, supplying building materials to builders and trades as well as transport and logistics to other sand yards utilizing our truck and dogs. What ive learned over many years of transport is that the simpler the truck the less heasdaches, the less fancy equipment less headaches, the more basic a cabin less breakages etc.....we run Hinos, Macks, Kenworths, Isuzus, Mitshubishis and let me tell you there is a reason we do not run fancy Scanias or Mercedes that have every fancy gadjet under the sun, its becuase they are not up to the sort of messy, heavy haulage work we do. Most people here say that the puma engines are not adequate in the defender and that LR should have shoved some massive v8 in the engine bay similar to the landcruiser. These people are ignornant and do not understand the principles of a working vehicle which the defender is by the way. These same people would jump in one of our truck and dogs fully loaded and say they are under powered when in fact they are top specs. They arent race trucks they are work horses and the defender is no different. They are 6 cyclinder diesel turbos, not v12 twin turbo 2 million horse power dyno queens! The puma is exactly the same principle, great bore:stroke ratio, torque where you want it and a chassis to match its intended purpose.

My 2013 110 is not as comfy as a disco, not as sophisticated as a disco, not as fast as a disco.......but when it comes to offroad id pick my defender any day of the week. If i was taking the family camping I'd take the disco.

Ps; it would be great to have a 4wd day with d4s vs defenders.....the ultimate test..anyone?

I posted this earlier but read it agian. The same principles aplly to proper offroad 4wds in my opinion. If you want to own the "scania" of 4wds then its your choice. Just be prepared for the long term complex issues steming from a over complicated platform catered to look good at the school parking lot. It screams adventure when its prime hunting ground is the concrete jungle.

Wasnt me :rolleyes:

[frantic]

I find this an odd argument. My new Defender is costing me $60k. I don't want to abuse it any more than I wanted to abuse my Disco. I do want to enjoy using it offroad as much as I have enjoyed the Disco.

Repairing panel damage on a Defender is just as expensive to do properly as it is on a Disco. That fact that you are able to live with a battered vehicle has more to do with its age and condition.

I'm not knocking that but would you be happy going out and bending panels on a new Defender that you just shelled $60k or more out on? If not its irrelevent to this argument, which is about the offroad capability of new vehicles.

Cheers,
Jon

The thing is you can reinforce the more exposed panels on a defender and all panels start higher.
The other thing that's ignored is replacing glass to keep going. No answer, no challenge, must be correct then. :twisted:

[TerryO]

Wow TerryO......creating a post to reassure your ego is a waste of every bodies time and energy.

Type in "land rovers toughest vehicle" into google and see what comes up........its a defender not a discovery with a bloke wearing some fancy polo shirt and a mocha latte frape chino.


Talking about ego, it's definitely not mine that is feeling insecure and in need of reassurance, given a couple of the churlish responses it would seam that a few Defenders owners are feeling a little threatened about how good their pride and joys are given the many comments by a large number of Disco owners.

Everyone is allowed an opinion, even me believe it or not. My various comments expressing my opinions add up to less than 5% of all the comments so far in this thread in total.

Yes I have said I believe a late model Disco is just as good if not better than a Defender in many cases given parity with tyres and I have said that late model Disco's have character just like many Defender owners say their vehicles have.
If that upsets some of you so be it, yes Defender owners are very passionate about their vehicles and many truly believe they own the only proper 4wd on the planet, that's fine, but rather than trying to be insulting why not offer actual proof rather than just twaddle about Disco's are inferior because their owners don't like getting scratches or Defenders are tougher because everyone knows that or something else just as pointless.

This has been a very good discussion so far until several of you have felt the need to make it personal. I expect several Defender owners though that the Disco owners would just lay down and take as gospel their words of wisdom about how the Defender is the best 4wd vehicle there is. Yes I accept a Defender is a excellent 4wd, I have always believed it is but no matter what some of you think it's not the only good 4wd out there.

So how about getting back on topic and actually discussing the points and actually explaining why a late model Defender is better off road than a late model Disco on similar size and spec tyres, because to date not to many of you have even attempted to address that.

[1nando]

1st: price of a disco is significantly dearer
2nd: load carrying ability. Defender 110 is 1000kg and D4 is 750kg
3rd: cargo area is bigger in the 110
4th: fuel usage on a fully loaded D4 is significantly more than a fully loaded 110. Bigger engine more fuel. Draw back when remote travelling
5th: better angles of approach, traversing etc
6th: 1/2 a ton lighter
7th: bigger tyres with solid axles provide better clearance when flexed
8th: better torque delivery where you need it.....down low and controlled delivery not aggressive and therefore maintains better traction.
9th: the body presents the perfect canvas to add bits and pieces to better cater for bush adventure/travel
10th: simpler design= less to go wrong.
11th: stood the test of time.....


Need i say more?
Ticks a few boxes in my opinion!

[1nando]

I forgot the best point;

12th: its one of the most recognized and iconic vehicles of all time. Its a timeless vehicle that has evolved marginally over time, excellent in its conception and refined over years to suit its intended purpose. A purposeful vehicle that built a culture and will leave behind a legacy that the world will not forget when LR stops production. Its the grandfather of the LR badge and the "bar" that other 4wds are compared too.

....and its a bloody pleasure to drive and its just bloody "cool"!

[Disco Muppet]

Well when you put it like that, sounds like the defender should have a few awards to its name...
You know...
Like the discovery platform winning 4wd of the year...
9 years in a row...

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[1nando]

Until a river crossing that fried the computer! Was reported pretty well in 4wd action if i recall correctly

Also, going back to the question of which is better offroad, I've listed 11 real world points. If you believe the disco is better please address each point which i believe is fundamental to touring/offroad and create a argument for the disco.

[jon3950]

1st: price of a disco is significantly dearer Irrelevant
2nd: load carrying ability. Defender 110 is 1000kg and D4 is 750kg Good, but this makes the Defender better at carrying a load, not driving over rough ground.
3rd: cargo area is bigger in the 110 Also good, but still doesn't make it better off-road
4th: fuel usage on a fully loaded D4 is significantly more than a fully loaded 110. Bigger engine more fuel. Draw back when remote travelling Agreed
5th: better angles of approach, traversing etc Agreed. Definate advantage.
6th: 1/2 a ton lighter Big advantage in my opinion. The downside of this is much of the extra weight in the Disco goes in to making the structure more solid. A big plus if you come to grief off-road.
7th: bigger tyres with solid axles provide better clearance when flexed In many circumstances yes. However there would be some situations where the Disco's suspension would have clearance advantages
8th: better torque delivery where you need it.....down low and controlled delivery not aggressive and therefore maintains better traction. No. Here the Disco has an advantage. Torque delivery is brilliant.
9th: the body presents the perfect canvas to add bits and pieces to better cater for bush adventure/travel Yes, if that floats your boat. Or it just gives you the ability to bolt more useless crap to it and so reduce that 1/2 ton weight advantage.
10th: simpler design= less to go wrong. Simpler design yes, but poor constructability of the design means things are more likely to go wrong. So much of this benefit is lost.
11th: stood the test of time.....No it hasn't. That's why it's being discontinued.


Need i say more?
Ticks a few boxes in my opinion! I do agree with this bit though.:D

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

I forgot the best point;

12th: its one of the most recognized and iconic vehicles of all time. Its a timeless vehicle that has evolved marginally over time, excellent in its conception and refined over years to suit its intended purpose. A purposeful vehicle that built a culture and will leave behind a legacy that the world will not forget when LR stops production. Its the grandfather of the LR badge and the "bar" that other 4wds are compared too.

That's probably the greatest thing about a Defender, but how does it make it better off-road than a Disco?


....and its a bloody pleasure to drive and its just bloody "cool"! No argument with that.

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

Until a river crossing that fried the computer! Was reported pretty well in 4wd action if i recall correctly


A very poorly executed river crossing, by people who clearly did not understand the vehicle they were driving.

Of course that could never happen in Puma, they don't have a computer. Oh, hang on....

Cheers,
Jon

[Toxic_Avenger]

Might pay to make some definition of what type of 'offroad performance' we are trying to measure. Otherwise we are going to talk in circles for another200-odd posts of opiniated and unsubstantiated claims

Mayby some categories such as:

1) Sand
2) Mud
3) Rock Crawling
4) Outback touring
5) Graded / maintained dirt roads
6) ???

Address each in relation to the below sub categories
Comfort
Ability
Other (cool factor, etc)
???

[LandyAndy]

Might pay to make some definition of what type of 'offroad performance' we are trying to measure. Otherwise we are going to talk in circles for another200-odd posts of opiniated and unsubstantiated claims

Mayby some categories such as:

1) Sand
2) Mud
3) Rock Crawling
4) Outback touring
5) Graded / maintained dirt roads
6) ???

Address each in relation to the below sub categories
Comfort
Ability
Other (cool factor, etc)
???

6) The soccer mum run :wasntme::wasntme::wasntme:
Andrew

[Celtoid]

The thing is you can reinforce the more exposed panels on a defender and all panels start higher.
The other thing that's ignored is replacing glass to keep going. No answer, no challenge, must be correct then. :twisted:


The glass in a D4 is unbreakable .... no need to answer ;).

[Mick_Marsh]

A very poorly executed river crossing, by people who clearly did not understand the vehicle they were driving.

Of course that could never happen in Puma, they don't have a computer. Oh, hang on....

Cheers,
Jon
I think he was talking about the Defender.

It's a very good point. The Defender is better off road as it has less electrical complexity. I've seen how electrical complexity performs in the bush. I think it was my first experience camping with you AULROians introduced me to Discoverys that succumbed to the mud. A notable example is Marty in his P38. I suspect he would have been fine on those occasions if only the computer didn't get wet.

[Rob king]

You're boxing yourselves in and missing the obvious option....
Why compromise?.. Get the RRS!
Just as capable as the D4, goes 98% of the places a Puma will and you don't need to be Mike Leyland to work it.
BUT, there's the power, comfort, looks and on road (as it will be far more often), hose it down and you have a luxury car, a sports car, station wagon, family car... Quiet, comfortable, well optioned. Comes prefitted with towing gear...
Really, in terms of versatility and practicality ...it's the only car you need..
And I've stayed on topic.
Rob.

[AndyG]

13 a spare tyre you can access in sand or mud
14 rarely driven by soccer mums so had cred
15 you can put a beer, Bundy or even Latte on the front guards safely

[Toxic_Avenger]

15 you can put a beer, Bundy or even Latte on the front guards safely

Add chequer plate to the wing tops for extra traction for the beer when in adverse conditions. It's like mud-terrain tyres for your beverages.

[scarry]

You're boxing yourselves in and missing the obvious option....
Why compromise?.. Get the RRS!
Just as capable as the D4, goes 98% of the places a Puma will and you don't need to be Mike Leyland to work it.
BUT, there's the power, comfort, looks and on road (as it will be far more often), hose it down and you have a luxury car, a sports car, station wagon, family car... Quiet, comfortable, well optioned. Comes prefitted with towing gear...
Really, in terms of versatility and practicality ...it's the only car you need..
And I've stayed on topic.
Rob.

The D4 does all of that and has a lot more room inside:o:D

Oh,and a D4 will go 100% of places a Puma will:angel:

And i have hardly wandered off topic either:)

[scarry]

Well when you put it like that, sounds like the defender should have a few awards to its name...
You know...
Like the discovery platform winning 4wd of the year...
9 years in a row...

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

And it would have kept on winning but they changed the criteria…...

[AndyG]

And we can trust journalists as they know everything??.....

[LandyAndy]

AFTER off-roading the D4 is superior:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p.
Just been cleaning mine after last weeks fishing trip.
To clean the chassis out,select off-road height,then trick the ecu into extra off-road height.Now one can easliy wash out the chassis and protection plates with a hose and clean inside the wheel arches with ease.Bugga my roof is now like a defenders,I cant wash it :(:(:(:(:(
Oh yea thats right,select accses height,the same button you use to park in parking spots that say small cars only,low clearance.Now I can wash the roof with ease;);););););)
Andrew

[AndyG]

Wash :confused:
Oh can't have an off road vehicle dirty :wasntme:

[LandyAndy]

Here we go try this in a Defender.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puaPTmxwwhg

OH,they did!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivlz6jRWmfg
Andrew

[Marty110]

The Defender is better off road as it has less electrical complexity.
except all the electrics under the drivers seat in a Puma in a box that is very low and not well sealed so therefore need Mulgo's ExBox mod.

[chuck]

Interesting thread.

One thing I disagree with is Fuel Use comparisons.

My SDV6 D4 is far more fuel efficient than my Sons Defender.

Even if you take driving styles out i.e. doing 110km/h on the freeway I am at 8 litres per hundred the defender is 10+.

The D4 is also more fuel efficient when towing + the fact it does it more easily.

I very much enjoy driving my sons defender, however would I swap - No.

[Mick_Marsh]

except all the electrics under the drivers seat in a Puma in a box that is very low and not well sealed so therefore need Mulgo's ExBox mod.
I was told it was up on the firewall behind the engine.

[AndyG]

Ecu on the bulkhead, stuff under the seat. What's annoying isitwould be easy to waterproof at the factory

[frantic]

Talking about ego, it's definitely not mine that is feeling insecure and in need of reassurance, given a couple of the churlish responses it would seam that a few Defenders owners are feeling a little threatened about how good their pride and joys are given the many comments by a large number of Disco owners.

Everyone is allowed an opinion, even me believe it or not. My various comments expressing my opinions add up to less than 5% of all the comments so far in this thread in total.



So how about getting back on topic and actually discussing the points and actually explaining why a late model Defender is better off road than a late model Disco on similar size and spec tyres, because to date not to many of you have even attempted to address that.
Actually one of the major points as to why it's a better 4x4 is the one you're trying to either eliminate or ignore.
On a defender with a 2 inch lift I can fit 35- 37 inch rubber with offset rims, flares and a guard trim. A D3/D4 cannot fit that size, EVER.:twisted:
I think you also answered it yourself in modifying a 100inch series 3 on coils, oops a d1,) aren't the rear and front axles identical to a swb S3/Def 90,also same gearbox/transfer case?) :D and not your D3or 4.
A wrangler needs 4-6 inch lift for that size as do the Japanese opposition.

[gghaggis]

It's been fun listening to all the Deefer drivers explain how D3's & 4's work, but their scratchings on the cave wall show that they're still in the land of the Prince Of Darkness when it comes to understanding technology.

Things have moved on, the live vs independent argument is invalid in the face of active IRS, and the idea that wanting to scratch/damage the car is a characteristic of the vehicle (rather than the owner) is running a line of logic even Benny Hill would have trouble with.

10% tyre change is illegal on any stock vehicle and, and and ...... so on. Nothing to do with stock off-road ability here folks.

Ah well

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/395.jpg

[1nando]

According to the discovery owners Roothys Milo must be a D4 in disguise....


Wait a minute its a 30 year odd old truck that out performs everything in the lowrange series, including.....wait for it.......Glenos D4.

What a leaf sprung 30 odd year old toyota can out perform a D4?

Yes it can!

I own all the dvds and anyone that says counter to that:
- has either not watched the series
- chooses to be ignorant
- or should get their eyes checked.

The principles for off road (off road is the topic) are simple and the defender meets that very simple criteria.

Defender is the essence of "off road", its quintessentially the icon for "offroad". The D4 is: im a dad with a wife and 2 kids but i like to pretend i can go bush and keep up with my mates and their lifted and big tyre trucks because my wife would kill me if a bought something as cool as a defender...

Wasn't me:rolleyes:

[roverrescue]

I wonder if "milos " advantage is as simple as tyre size plus half the weight of the d ?..

[Toxic_Avenger]

And as much as I'm in the defender camp, the low range series really does have roothy's name and fan base well and truly on their sleeve... so it's highly likely that it's got some considerable selective editing, and toyota fan-boy themes that they need to push.

All toyota drivers love a broken land rover (irrespective of model), amiright?

[1nando]

And as much as I'm in the defender camp, the low range series really does have roothy's name and fan base well and truly on their sleeve... so it's highly likely that it's got some considerable selective editing, and toyota fan-boy themes that they need to push.

All toyota drivers love a broken land rover (irrespective of model), amiright?

You are right, Toyota drivers usually hate LR's. But if you watch the series there is a lot of times the d4 makes a meal of something where Roothy idles over. Lets not even mention Kenos hilux, fair enough he's towing the camper but its not even in the same ball park

[SimmAus]

According to the discovery owners Roothys Milo must be a D4 in disguise.... Wait a minute its a 30 year odd old truck that out performs everything in the lowrange series, including.....wait for it.......Glenos D4. What a leaf sprung 30 odd year old toyota can out perform a D4? Yes it can! :

Irrelevant, light hearted banter to the discussion at hand. To which one counter position could be: so milo can out perform a Defender then.;-)



QUOTE=". The D4 is: im a dad with a wife and 2 kids but i like to pretend i can go bush and keep up with my mates and their lifted and big tyre trucks because my wife would kill me if a bought something as cool as a defender... Wasn't me:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Nope. I'm a dad, with a wife and 2 kids, that CAN and does go bush and keep up with my mates in their lifted, locked, big tyre trucks. I can also cruise home safely at 110kms, with whatever music takes my fancy playing through umpteen speakers, at whatever temperature inside I feel like.

Again, both awesome vehicles, that do things better than others; just have different strengths depending on what you want.

[shanegtr]

The D4 is: im a dad with a wife and 2 kids but i like to pretend i can go bush and keep up with my mates and their lifted and big tyre trucks because my wife would kill me if a bought something as cool as a defender...

Wasn't me:rolleyes:
Im a dad with wife and 4 kids - I just couldn't afford a puma defender (if I pushed it I probably could, but Im not a fan of paying over 30K for a car - $27k is the most I've ever shelled out for a car). Plus it does the majority of its running with the kids in there with the wife driving so its a bit more of a suitable "allrounder"

[LandyAndy]

Defender is the essence of "off road", its quintessentially the icon for "offroad". The D4 is: im a dad with a wife and 2 kids but i like to pretend i can go bush and keep up with my mates and their lifted and big tyre trucks because my wife would kill me if a bought something as cool as a defender...

Wasn't me

I only have 1 "kid",he is 21 and has left the nest:p:p:p:p:p:p
When the TD5 Xtremes came out,I wanted one,having only had Series Landies at this stage.I went on to buy a TD5 D2,now theres another animal that will run rings around a Deefer:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
A TD5 Xtreme in very good condition with low ks came up at a silly price I just couldnt refuse,we bought it for Deb.WHAT A DISSAPOINTMENT.I refused to drive it in disgust.Squuezed up against the B pillar with my leg impaled by the handbrake.Aircon,that was a feature,almost good enough to cool the kneecaps.Then there were other features,the foot wash with rain,the din at hwy speed,the series quality wiring,a door that fell apart under the Xtreme weight of the factory spare,the ecu that leaked oil,etc etc etc.
Best part was selling it at a profit.

Andrew

[rick130]

When the TD5 Xtremes came out,I wanted one,having only had Series Landies at this stage.I went on to buy a TD5 D2,now theres another animal that will run rings around a Deefer:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
A TD5 Xtreme in very good condition with low ks came up at a silly price I just couldnt refuse,we bought it for Deb.WHAT A DISSAPOINTMENT.I refused to drive it in disgust.Squuezed up against the B pillar with my leg impaled by the handbrake.Aircon,that was a feature,almost good enough to cool the kneecaps.Then there were other features,the foot wash with rain,the din at hwy speed,the series quality wiring,a door that fell apart under the Xtreme weight of the factory spare,the ecu that leaked oil,etc etc etc.
Best part was selling it at a profit.

Andrew

I could suggest a teaspoon, but maybe a bag of cement would been more appropriate ? :angel:




Oh, BTW, Hi Andrew ! :D

[Celtoid]

You are right, Toyota drivers usually hate LR's. But if you watch the series there is a lot of times the d4 makes a meal of something where Roothy idles over. Lets not even mention Kenos hilux, fair enough he's towing the camper but its not even in the same ball park


Never watched the show but am asking ... who's driving the D4? How do you know what's on/off, tyre pressures, etc, etc. Does the guy know how to drive it ... is he hamming it up?


To some folks having to make these adjustments may seem onerous but as has been pointed out, that car (D4) is on wheels best suited to represent the majority of the customer base (right or wrong) and carrying a lot of safety and comfort gear as well as a shed load of torque and power from right off idle (engine and bits hanging off it). Saying adjusting for this is as silly as saying you can't apply the diff locks to a Deefer (which is automatic on a D4).


There are folks out there that do reviews and movies that haven't taken a second to research the platform they are reviewing. Apparently the D4 has really hard to get at recovery points ... which are 'hidden' behind a plastic cover that is designed to be removed by a coin (and should be removed before going off-road .... so you can recover a Deefer ;-)). Apparently the TC on a D4 is really hard to fathom too .... the 4 or 5 selection rotary knob on the older ones or the selector switch on the newer ones is just so complicated (you just move it) .... so is the fact that it tells you what you have selected on the screen .... and will give you instructions if the right selection is made.


As I said, never watched the show but with all this stupid bias, the D4 still smacked arse 9 times in a row ..... which made the reviewers almost puke having to award it. There aren't may LR loving reviewers out there!

[gghaggis]

You are right, Toyota drivers usually hate LR's. But if you watch the series there is a lot of times the d4 makes a meal of something where Roothy idles over. Lets not even mention Kenos hilux, fair enough he's towing the camper but its not even in the same ball park

Hmm - I was involved to some extent with Glenno's D4 build. When I saw the first "Low Range" episode and how the D4 was driven, I offered him a copy of my booklet for free. He candidly admits it took a while for him to digest the info and put it into practice. "Milo" is far from a "stock" 4x4 and I doubt there is an original part on it.

Methinks you're clutching at straws with this one.