Ineos Grenadier, do you reckon it'll take off?

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Originally Posted by one_iota

The definition of reliability changes with the complexity of the machine. The Grenadier is not a simple machine. If a sensor detects accurately or not a problem that is worthy of attention that might be regarded as an issue falling into the unreliable category. Equally the rear vision mirror desilvering likewise. My Puma Defender sensors saved my engine from cooking as a result of a welsh plug leaking coolant. Does that make my vehicle reliable or unreliable?

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Depends how many kilometres and years were on it when the welsh plus crapped it's pants mate [emoji1787][emoji106]. Cheers

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Originally Posted by ozscott

Shots fired [emoji1787]Unfortunately what I am seeing from owners (a lot) on the Facebook owners forums are nothing to do with maintenance (these are new or near new very low mileage vehicles) and the issues are down to poor design and poor manufacturing. I a big believer in maintenance. My D1 and D2 over the last more than 2 decades have copped their fair share of 'preventative maintenance'. Cheers

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You must frequent the hundreds of forums I don't...but what would I know?

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Originally Posted by ozscott

Depends how many kilometres and years were on it when the welsh plus crapped it's pants mate [emoji1787][emoji106]. Cheers

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Fifteen years is a long time in anyone's timescale. Have you inspected yours lately? If it was a 300Tdi the motor would be cactus. So having thought about it have you won your argument about reliability? Furthermore based
on all the evidence about Land Rover reliability you've accumulated why are you still here?

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Originally Posted by one_iota

Fifteen years is a long time in anyone's timescale. Have you inspected yours lately? If it was a 300Tdi the motor would be cactus. So having thought about it have you won your argument about reliability? Furthermore based
on all the evidence about Land Rover reliability you've accumulated why are you still here?

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More shots fired [emoji1787][emoji106]It is not so much Land Rover reliability per se I have a problem with as much as the new Defenders issues particularly given its significant new car cost and its 🦣 complexity. Anyway you don't have to like my point of view mate. Thick skinned. Why am I still here? Love the older Land Rovers and enjoy the people here. Even you mate. It is though healthy to be objective about things you love or own. Enjoy your much less complex machines as I do mine. Cheers

PS. my welsh plugs are sound thanks.

I think the reliability reputation has been done to death on this forum,over the years,everyone has different opinions,and have had different experiences,many of us over a number of years.
Same for brand bashing,it all gets a bit boring.

I have been on other vehicle brand Forums for many years,and they definitely don't bash brands like some do on here.
In fact it is surprising how many on the LC300 forum,have a new Defender as their other car.

A bit of friendly banter is good though.....
And we are all here to learn.[smilebigeye]

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Originally Posted by Xtreme

I totally agree, especially the last sentence.
I've owned more than 30 Landy's over a period of almost 60 years. All road registered and have taken me all over Australia and have always brought me back home. Never had a major problem although I did have to drive the final 100km or so without a clutch on one occasion. Always kept them pretty close to standard mechanically, just a few accessories to make camping/touring more enjoyable.
Current Landy is a 2003 Td5 Defender

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So I have a 2005 Td5. It's been lots of places. It has been reliable. I had some famous youtuber tell me I was wrong and my car was junk. Toyota are the best. That's the fact.

The thing is I think the older LR's like mine were reasonably reliable, but if you did break down there was a chance you could meaningfully remedy it or kludge a work around.

And that is where the "modern" LR really suffer. They are very very dependent on electronics. If something fails you are done. We had a disco3 and a new ish rangie on a trip with me. The disco 3 decided it wasn't going to charge any more (and when I mean decided I mean decided). The car is still telling the new alternator not to bother charging whenever it decides to, months later and no one can workout why. Meanwhile on the trip, we found if you jump started off the rangie you had 20 minutes with a scan tool trying to clear the cascading faults caused by the low voltages. In the meantime lots of systems didn't work. We were in the middle of nowhere so we decided touching anything on the rangie was too much of a risk of having two dead cars.

So we started to use the Toyota that I was driving for jump starting and battery swaps. So I don't know why, but the only issues the Toyota had after a complete battery removal was it would loose the time and the trip meter. It could be happily jump started off anything with the required volts. For what it's worth, I believe my TD5 defender would also have been fine in that role.

I don't know WTF it is about modern LR electronics .. be it the optical fibre network that runs the car.. who knows. But other manufacturers seem to be able to get cars to be electronically reliable. IMHO LR should have a complete rethink about how they do electronics.

Will the grenadier suffer the same problem? I don't know.. but I don't think automatically saying "the grenadier will have more electronics than old LR" should automatically mean they are doomed to the same issues as modern LR's. IA have said they have tried their hardest to keep electronics to a minimum. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by scarry

I think the reliability reputation has been done to death on this forum,over the years,everyone has different opinions,and have had different experiences,many of us over a number of years.
Same for brand bashing,it all gets a bit boring.

I have been on other vehicle brand Forums for many years,and they definitely don't bash brands like some do on here.
In fact it is surprising how many on the LC300 forum,have a new Defender as their other car.

A bit of friendly banter is good though.....
And we are all here to learn.[smilebigeye]

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So my experience with modern LR's has been so traumatic I just could never go there.

Meanwhile my TD5 defender has been really quite awesome.

If I could buy a new version of it with the 1947 ergonomics fixed I would buy one. Hold on.. Grenadier...

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

So I have a 2005 Td5. It's been lots of places. It has been reliable. I had some famous youtuber tell me I was wrong and my car was junk. Toyota are the best. That's the fact.

The thing is I think the older LR's like mine were reasonably reliable, but if you did break down there was a chance you could meaningfully remedy it or kludge a work around.

And that is where the "modern" LR really suffer. They are very very dependent on electronics. If something fails you are done. We had a disco3 and a new ish rangie on a trip with me. The disco 3 decided it wasn't going to charge any more (and when I mean decided I mean decided). The car is still telling the new alternator not to bother charging whenever it decides to, months later and no one can workout why. Meanwhile on the trip, we found if you jump started off the rangie you had 20 minutes with a scan tool trying to clear the cascading faults caused by the low voltages. In the meantime lots of systems didn't work. We were in the middle of nowhere so we decided touching anything on the rangie was too much of a risk of having two dead cars.

So we started to use the Toyota that I was driving for jump starting and battery swaps. So I don't know why, but the only issues the Toyota had after a complete battery removal was it would loose the time and the trip meter. It could be happily jump started off anything with the required volts. For what it's worth, I believe my TD5 defender would also have been fine in that role.

I don't know WTF it is about modern LR electronics .. be it the optical fibre network that runs the car.. who knows. But other manufacturers seem to be able to get cars to be electronically reliable. IMHO LR should have a complete rethink about how they do electronics.

Will the grenadier suffer the same problem? I don't know.. but I don't think automatically saying "the grenadier will have more electronics than old LR" should automatically mean they are doomed to the same issues as modern LR's. IA have said they have tried their hardest to keep electronics to a minimum. Time will tell.

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It may be an urban myth, but I was led to believe that the Italians, notably Ducati and Ferrari, decided to pursue electronic reliability by farming it out to the Japanese. Myth or not, something worked.

If cars are to meet emission and consumption standards demanded by the EU then electronics, especially computers, are essential. I just hope that Sir Jim only copied LR concepts, and not their execution.

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Originally Posted by Tins

It may be an urban myth, but I was led to believe that the Italians, notably Ducati and Ferrari, decided to pursue electronic reliability by farming it out to the Japanese. Myth or not, something worked.

If cars are to meet emission and consumption standards demanded by the EU then electronics, especially computers, are essential. I just hope that Sir Jim only copied LR concepts, and not their execution.

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And you know how it is.. LR went down this path basically from the D3 on. They will have a lot invested in the way they do this.

The problem is throwing it all away and starting again would be expensive and courageous. I'm with you.. I hope they learned.

Electronics done well should not be inherently unreliable.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

And you know how it is.. LR went down this path basically from the D3 on. They will have a lot invested in the way they do this.

The problem is throwing it all away and starting again would be expensive and courageous. I'm with you.. I hope they learned.

Electronics done well should not be inherently unreliable.

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OS Software on the other hand 🤪[emoji41]