Thread: QANTAS fleet grounded

Originally Posted by strangy

Who said they were the best paid?? Not me,.... only the people like Joyce whose personal bonus exceeds the entire amount sort by the workforce. This is ONE of the points leading to industrial action.
Oh how "evil" of Australian workers to stand up and want fair pay for skill.
Of course you wouldnt mind at all when this happens to your area of employment will you?

By the way you wont get cheaper fares because any margin will be paid to shareholders not jo public......... and engineering capabilities and Pilot experience to match ... why do you think Tiger were grounded? Because their cheap poorly trained/checked/ experienced pilots flew below lowest safe altitude on a number of occasions, endangering all on board and on the ground. But hey, who cares about that you got cheap fare didnt you?
Isnt ignorance just bliss. (the above is just one reason)

Always fascinated by people with no idea about Aviation other than finding the cheapest fare, suddenly have an opinion when they percieve themselves to be missing out. Rather easier to apply a broad base swipe at unions than to bother to find out what is really going on eh? BTW I am not in any union and have seen the damage some can do, but also see their value in many circumstances.

No doubt the same people will gladly diregard litigation equally, should there be an accident or even just a little scare to cause them some emotional trauma?

Funny how everybody bitches and moans about crappy mechanics on their vehicles and crappy aftermarket parts and blah blah blah, but suddenly want those same manufacturing countries and workers maintaining the machines that will take them and their families 12kms up and 700km/h for the price of bus ticket, but no way they will put that part on their vehicle or use that mechanic, cos its just not worth the risk!!!

Hmmm folks wont bolt on a chinese winch in case it leaves them stranded for a few hours till help arrives but will take the chance at hurtling towards the ground in an aluminium tube for sake of a few dollars on an airfare.

For those who dont know, aircraft parts are specifically certified and, for the most part for this thread, will come from Boeing or Airbus industries.
So all operators will pay the same price for spares as the next operator. So nothing to be saved o/seas in this department. The difference is in the staff and their training and experience.

Some countries do an excellent job, while many are fraudulent, untrained and use second hand parts despite signatories and certification in maintenance log books stating otherwise.

cheers

One Question if the total cost of the demands from unions have a costing of 300million a year, This is more than the companies international business is making so how would that be met and still stay in business?

Yep all those pilots struggling to get buy on 350-500k a year must be doing it so tough, how do they make ends meet?

Originally Posted by roverfan

One Question if the total cost of the demands from unions have a costing of 300million a year, This is more than the companies international business is making so how would that be met and still stay in business?

Yep all those pilots struggling to get buy on 350-500k a year must be doing it so tough, how do they make ends meet?

And 350-500 a year? what a load of tripe. The best paid paid pilots are in Emirates and Cathay and barely a handful approach this.

The average Pilot wage in Australia is $75k With the majority not employed by a major Airline earning under $60k. While some Captains enjoy Salaries approaching 300k they are a minority. The average Captains wage is 140k, yet you feel they dont deserve this on what basis?
You obviously think its Ok for the top managers of stores, companies, businesses, site supervisors, equipment operators to earn similar and more dollars but not someone who has reached the top of their profesion, becasue they fly an aircraft.
I guess the same distaste is held for the members here who can afford a new Range Rover, D4 or Puma?

Fact vs fiction has been an issue with aviation disputes, policy and regulation since the Wright brothers flew.
I make no apology, as I said before people without experience or knowledge make lots of grand statements which are either outright false or out of context, but they believe it to be true regardless.
When it comes to truth and fact, aviation is almost shrouded in mystery and magic for those outside the field. This is evidenced in the sensationalist and often exagerated reporting on any aviation event.

The core issues though have been highlighted quite well in this thread by those with views on both side, which should sound alarm bells for workers in all industry here.

Aviation is a litmus paper for the economy both local and international.
Global competition in any field does not equal a level playing field and wont in the future either.

Job guarentees are not a reality for anyone anymore and I see pursuing this as a futile exercise. BUT if Qantas succeeds overall with this endeavour it will pave the way for Australian companies to set up offshore, force out their workforce and replace them with offshore employment contracts and staff. An outcome Qantas has made no secret of from the outset.

Despite the rantings of the militant in the Union (there are these types in all industries and judging an entire industry on this is poor) there is a core of genuine professionals whose livelihood is being threatened, by the actions of Qantas Execs. Lets not forget the 100,000's businesses and individuals who have suffered already because of this decision.

Money has to be made businesses have to be proftable sacrifices must be made.......if this becomes the norm for this country, I suspect there will be change of tune for many.

I readily acknowledge the cost of operating any business in Australia is high and soon to be untenable for many. But if everything manufactured or serviced goes offshore, then the country will become a global outlet for a "Mad Harrys/ Crazy Clints/ 2 Dollar Shop "


cheers

The demands are unreasonable, I don't care how much anyone earns or what car they drive. The unions actions and demands are what will drive Australian business offshore.

If as you say they are on 75k and that's not enough maybe they should get a job elsewhere, no one forces them to be a pilot.

You seem to think I have an issue with making money, not the case at all I just think the unions gone to far. If the unions arent trying to milk qantas why did they agree to a wage freeze at virgin 12% lower than the current qantas rate? Because they see that red kangaroo as a cash cow.

I know during the gfc I was asked to take a wage freeze to keep the doors open, those above me took a paycut, yet the union wanted a frontline increase despite not having made a profit or hit targets for 18 months prior.

I believe qantas management is doing the right thing by it's shareholders, refusing to be ran into the ground by unions who don't care about the viability of the business. I've been on both sides of the fence and I can assure you unions don't care about the worker or the business anymore it's all about lining their own Pockets in the short term - like the demand on qantas by the pilots union of 1 million a year to fund 2 union reps thats right they want two of their own to earn around 400k a year paid by the company yet you claim a pilots only on 75, doesn't look like they are doing that to benefit the pilots.

In the end you obviously have a vested interest in the matter and feel anyone outside of the industry has an opinion that doesn't count.

Howard Smith a victorian branch TWU official in the early 1990's explained his rationale for not giving a toss about the viability of a business during negotiations was it didn't matter what happened to the company or the bosses as the frieght task still had to be done by someone and if they replaced you doing the frieght task he would make demands on them same as he was making demands on you now.

His theory that it didn't matter who the members worked for as all bosses were arseholes anyway and he didn't care about bosses as they were all same anyway so if they went broke they got what they deserved.

To all those who say the unions are out of order. I say fascism reigns supreme then. Unions have a right to exist as they are there to counter absolute power of the employer if all employers were angels we wouldnt need unions would we?
The unions involved in this dispute are not only fighting Qantas they are fighting against most of the broader business community. This is a litmus test what ever the outcome there will be broader ramifications for all of the work force.
A company that made $500m profit last year and has $2 billion in the bank is not broke. On top of this the CEO wins a 70% pay increase and he cant grant the workers 2-3%, it wreaks of hypocrisy.
Allan Joyce is another Sol Truilo does any one recal what he did to Telstra?
I think they are out of the same tank. I recal Truilo taking something like a $30m pay out before he left for home in Mexico after he sold of most of Telstras best assets to Bell south.
One thing both of these CEO`s had in common they had no loyalty to this country only the bottom line for share holders who also reside over seas.

Who ever said the irish were stupid , In my opinion Allan Joyce has just killed off Quantas
This is only my opinion

Originally Posted by RR P38

To all those who say the unions are out of order. I say fascism reigns supreme then. .

Wrong, Both Hitler and Lenin both outlawed unions, or just killed them of.

Originally Posted by RR P38

Unions have a right to exist as they are there to counter absolute power of the employer if all employers were angels we wouldn’t need unions would we? .

Wrong, they do not counter absolute power, it is the lack of absolute power that allows unions to exist. Re read pervious comments.

Originally Posted by RR P38

The unions involved in this dispute are not only fighting Qantas they are fighting against most of the broader business community. This is a litmus test what ever the outcome there will be broader ramifications for all of the work force. .

½ correct, this is a litmus test for the unions, who have had declining support for quite a number of years now. How ever as you can see from many of the posts in this thread that the average working Joe is not as susceptible to the Union spin as was the case a decade or more past.

Originally Posted by RR P38

A company that made $500m profit last year and has $2 billion in the bank is not broke. .

Sound impressive, how much of the cash on hand is in bond ( landing rights etc) how much is allocated for out of order or emergency expenses ( IE a crash, victims) how much of that cash is required to me held in forren banks so the airline can actually operate there. And how much of that cash is just turnover ?

Originally Posted by RR P38

On top of this the CEO wins a 70% pay increase and he can’t grant the workers 2-3%, it wreaks of hypocrisy. .

Firstly its not the CEOs decision, ( see absolute power) and if you can make a 500m dollar profit for me I would be more than happy to give you 1-2 million. But I think that you would need some education, and experience plus some reasonable IQ numbers to boot.

Originally Posted by RR P38

Allan Joyce is another Sol Truilo does any one recal what he did to Telstra?
I think they are out of the same tank. I recal Truilo taking something like a $30m pay out before he left for home in Mexico after he sold of most of Telstras best assets to Bell south. .

Dam good idea, sell all the aircraft and lase them back “on time” this will control costs and get rid of the commie engineers. Just to the same as that FAT Australian CEO of anssett did.

Originally Posted by RR P38

One thing both of these CEO`s had in common they had no loyalty to this country only the bottom line for share holders who also reside over seas.

So you don’t contribute to your super fund then?? Or do you have your retirement overseas?

YOU forget, the unions are ---------- a business, they need to make a profit as well

Originally Posted by roverfan

.................
In the end you obviously have a vested interest in the matter and feel anyone outside of the industry has an opinion that doesn't count.

I am in the avaition industry, I make no secret of my job, I am proud of what I do and who I work for. I am not a member of any union, I can only dream of some of the stupid numbers thrown about.
I work darn hard in one of the most complex and challenging aviation environments in this country. I love my job, I am good at it, I could double my salary tomorrow by changing employment but gain great satsifaction and work life balance from where I am.
Myself, colleagues, family and friends find our positions and livelihood under threat every 5 years or so when contracts come up for renewal from o/seas competitors.

I am particularly happy for those who have no idea what this feels like as theirs' is a rare, privelidged and endangered position.

When opinions based on popular opinion, twisted truths and sometimes outright lies are bandied as fact, I will say something about it.

Anybody is entitled to have an opinion and yet any opinion formed from incomplete, incorrect, political, financial bias is questionable in value.
Again no apologies for pointing that out.
cheers