Thread: Holden - how long before the end?

Originally Posted by pauloarg

Hello Pickles, I agree with you related to your comments on Peter Hannenberger and all the other GM Puppets that followed after him coming from mainly North America. Might I add though, Peter Hannenberger did work for Holden Engineering - back in the 60s or maybe 70s and hence his passion for the Holden brand. But with all the other GM Puppets after that, it always felt that there was a hidden agenda on how Holden was being handled and hence my call on "Puppets".

It's such a shame that the auto industry ended the way it did. Working in the automotive engineering industry really did open my eye on the passion commitment the ex engineers/staff gave to the whole program. Working on and seeing the end product post launch really did make me appreciate working for the industry. I'm sure other ex employees will share the same thought.

Now I'm in the Super/finance industry and working in a different industry definitely makes me appreciate more of the good times working in the automotive engineering department of Holden.

Cheers

You would've had GREAT times working for Holden, it was a vibrant exciting place for many years.
Yes, Peter was at Holden earlier, as you say, as an engineer, he was actually responsible for the RTS suspension, which was hailed as a giant step forward.
Did you ever meet legends like Warwick Bryce who knew more than anyone about the Holden V8, or Leo Pruneau etc?
What years were you there. Brock spent a bit of time at Fishermans Bend too!
Could you share some of your better memories?
Pickles.

Originally Posted by Eevo

an impossible question to answer.
how much did aust wages have to play in the downfall?

Definitely a big portion considering at the time, Australia wages was competing against low wage countries from Asia.

Originally Posted by pauloarg

Definitely a big portion considering at the time, Australia wages was competing against low wage countries from Asia.

Correct, particularly Thailand.
One of the last "handouts" given to Ford, was supposedly to enable them to build one of their better "car of the times", the Focus, in Aus.
Didn't happen, the Focus got produced in Thailand, and Ford used the money to make the Falcon 6cyl engine Euro compliant???!!!
Pickles

Originally Posted by Pickles2

You would've had GREAT times working for Holden, it was a vibrant exciting place for many years.
Yes, Peter was at Holden earlier, as you say, as an engineer, he was actually responsible for the RTS suspension, which was hailed as a giant step forward.
Did you ever meet legends like Warwick Bryce who knew more than anyone about the Holden V8, or Leo Pruneau etc?
What years were you there. Brock spent a bit of time at Fishermans Bend too!
Could you share some of your better memories?
Pickles.

Hello Pickles,

I started my career at the bend late in the piece in 96 and got to also work whilst Peter Hannenberger was in charge. I did get to meet with Brock at the time but obviously post retirement stage. Meet and greet session.

One of the better occasions I experienced was going to a go karting event with all the automotive engineers. The big boss at the time happened to know Mark Skaife who was invited to come along and compete with the pack. It was an all night event and competing with other auto engineers and Mark Skaife in go karting - it was a great night especially from team building perspective. Again this event plus others really made me appreciate the situation I was in.

Amazing experience.

For private vehicles,i had Holdens,thats it,HR,HQ,HZ,VN,VS.
All easy to fix and reliable,that VS was the best of them,a HSV enhanced V8.

My boys also had them as first cars,both VS.One had a VS Clubby(his 3rd car,don't ask about the others).

Then along came Land Rovers,for the last 20yrs

I wouldn't buy a Holden today as they are not what i need.

And i feel the Jap stuff is way better in many ways,even though it is boring.

Unfortunately,the D4 i have now is going to be the last LR,as they also don't have a new vehicle for our needs.
And NO i am not hanging around for the new Defender.

Originally Posted by Pickles2

When I got my license I was neither a Holden, nor A Ford Man, but I did like V8s,..still do, so my first car was a Ford, actually a '48 Ford Mercury V8, had a couple of them, also a '51 Twin Spinner,...but basically on a meagre bank teller's wage, I couldn't afford to run them, so I bought my first Holden a '59 FC Special, then a succession of other makes & models which I won't bore you with.
In the 60s got involved with motorsport, Brock, the Holden Dealer Team etc, and then bought my first "Real" Holden, an A9X around 1984, then a VK Group A in 1986,...at which time I did also look at an XD 5.8 Falcon ESP, but it handled like a barge so I left it alone, but it showed that I wasn't a dedicated "Holden" person,...any V8 was a consideration.
Since then, I've had a succession of V8s, mostly Holdens, and I've just bought the last of the last, an HSV GTSR, not everyone's cup of tea, but it suits me.
So I do have an affinity with Holden, & I'm sad they're not manufacturing in Aussie any more. There are many reasons for that, but this is not the place to discuss many of them.
Holden has never been a truly "Aussie" company, they have always had to answer to Detroit, but for a long time, only to some extent. I believe that Holden always tried to produce a good vehicle, and they did, as evidenced by the number of early model Holdens, Kingswoods, Utes etc etc, and of course the Commodore, which will be sadly missed by many.
I don't believe that "Holden" treated the Aussie buyer with contempt, no it was not Holden, BUT "someone" did, and that someone was GM Detroit.
The last Chairman & M.D. of Holden that really did have a real go at striving to let Holden do its own thing, was Peter Hanenberger who did the job from 1999-2003. He was successful in getting the CV8 Monaro into production, and He also succeeded in getting exports going to Asia, but, and this is the crux of the matter, not to the U.S.A, or to any other markets. GM Detroit would not support the Monaro, would not support the Commodore (Chev SS), nor would they support the Caprice/Statesman police car project,......and without exports Holden was doomed.
And after Hanenberger, all of his successors and Holden itself, became increasingly under the control of Detroit.
I think Holden was a phenomenal Aussie "institution" in its day, and I do not believe it treated the Aussie market with contempt,....GM Detroit certainly did.
Just my two bobs worth. Pickles.

You are way off the mark on this one FYI Detroit had noting to do with not supporting our cars in septic tank land there were several factors involved which was not solely Detroit`s influence .
Yes the Hamburglar was the best CEO not only for the company but the employee`s

Originally Posted by rangieman

You are way off the mark on this one FYI Detroit had noting to do with not supporting our cars in septic tank land there were several factors involved which was not solely Detroit`s influence .
Yes the Hamburglar was the best CEO not only for the company but the employee`s

I am not "way off the mark" at all, but I do respect your right or anybody's for that matter to disagree.
In fact there have been posts on this thread from ex Holden workers who have said much the same thing about Detroit influence. It was common knowledge for many years.
I might not know much about Landrovers, but I know plenty about went on with Holden, changed platforms, cancelled programs, lack of support for exports,...ALL emanating from Detroit.
Holden's "issues" go back a long way, and yes, of course there were other issues, apart from Detroit, one could even go back to the Button plan & see what a glorious success that was for Holden.
Anyway, a good solid discussion is always good, so I wouldn't mind your opinions about what, in your opinion, were, as per your words, the "several factors involved".
Pickles.

One thing I heard years ago (whether strictly true or not I don't know for certain)was about some of the machinations auto companies would go to, and how they (and others) could "game the system".

At the time, Ford was importing (I believe) gearboxes from Europe (could have been the ZF's). By exporting the Ford Capri (not the original British one, but the little convertibles) to the USA, they got a nice big taxpayer grant and subsidy (because they were exporting). They also received export credits on the units sent overseas, which offset the import duties they would have owed on the gearboxes. To top it off, the Capri's were selling in the USA for less than it cost Ford Aust to produce them, so they gained a tax credit on the loss! According to the person I heard it from, the nett result was that Ford was in front by almost half the price of every exported Capri, even though they were selling at a loss!
Maybe I should've become an accountant!