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Thread: Climate Change and our Land of Fire, Flood and Drought.

  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDNSW View Post

    The behaviour of CO2 as a greenhouse gas is also very well established,.
    new evidence is bringing this into doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDNSW View Post
    there is no room for doubt
    .
    thats not science.
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  2. #932
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoMick View Post
    Just reread post 916. It's all there.
    Unfortunately nothing to read there, that I haven't yet found for myself.
    I have links to a lot more info on the topic than in that reply, and as already replied, the basis for the readjustment is based on a lot of assumptions on the part of the WMO. In fact not just a lot of assumptions, the entire premise of the WMO is an assumption.
    Science is not confirmed on the basis of assumptions.
    So nothing to read there.
    And you do realise that the actual recorded data was revised downward from 58° to 56° don't you .. or do you just speculate on the basis of what one source provides, and not from multiple sources.

    The real question is: why are they revising the majority of the previous (ie. OLD) data downwards only .. and none of it upwards.
    It's impossible to comprehend that all the old data had been only ever noted higher than actual, and none of it to have been noted lower than actual.

    Quote Originally Posted by JDNSW View Post
    The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is less than 1%, and is usually quoted as "parts per million" (ppm). Current amount is around 400ppm, for example, it was measured at 413ppm or 0.0413% at the Mauna Loa Observatory in April this year. It has increased from around 0.028% at the start of the industrial revolution, and was 0.03% when I was at school. It does vary a little from place to place. Obviously this has not significantly affected the concentration of other gases in the atmosphere, as we are talking about concentrations of less than 0.1%.
    ....

    I conclude that while it is impossible to definitely attribute the current fires global warming, the drought that has led to them being so bad is just the sort of thing that would be expected as the ocean temperatures change. And I would emphasise that the measured rise in sea levels can leave no doubt that ocean temperatures have risen.
    Other than the drought example, this post has been the only one from the 'warming = danger' contingent that has made any sense.
    That is, there is a possibility that a warming globe could constitute a (very)long term dangerous set of conditions for the world. There is no evidence that it will or won't, so being more cautious is the better long term solution to a unknown issue.
    On the topic of droughts tho, there is no evidence to support that notion that they are worse now than pre warming period.
    Only evidence we have that droughts appear to be worse for us now .. is that the groups entrusted to manage water storage/usage have mismanaged it very badly up to now.
    The hope is that this will change, however unlikely that idea may seem to many of us.
    Arthur.

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  3. #933
    DiscoMick Guest
    Have a read about the Indian Ocean Dipolar. That will explain how the warming atmosphere is warming the Indian Ocean which is affecting the currents which is worsening our current drought.
    Also have a think about the fact the water level off Brisbane used to be about 50 metres lower than it is now, during an Ice Age. That's long term climate change.
    Lots of reliable information out there if you go looking. Just ignore the propaganda from vested interests such as the coal and oil lobby.

  4. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoMick View Post
    Have a read about the Indian Ocean Dipolar. That will explain how the warming atmosphere is warming the Indian Ocean which is affecting the currents which is worsening our current drought.
    ....
    You have to understand something about science.
    Reading someone's hypothesis that this is the way it may pan out, is not 'data'. That's what this dipole/multipole whatever number of poles hypothessis is .. a speculation.
    Hard evidence is data.
    The hard evidence .. the data captured to date by the BoM .. the Bureau of Meteorology .. the science gurus you turn to for guidance have stored data showing that rain fall is getting higher on the whole.

    What you're glossing over and, or ignoring is the point that they're use of the term drought includes consumption as a part of it's measure!

    Unless you have actual data ... measured data from any source that points to the technical use of the term drought(which is just a measure of average rainfall) getting worse in some way .. which would contradict the data captured by the BoM .. your claims are empty.

    God may as well be causing it, we know that He works in mysterious ways.

    True science doesn't . It works in measured ways. You measure, you have a data point. You post that data point, job done.
    Climate science then takes that data point, distorts it to suit their agenda, and make any number of claims they like.
    They could easily have distorted their assessment to go the other way if they liked.
    Arthur.

    All these discos are giving me a heart attack!

    '99 D1 300Tdi Auto ( now sold :( )
    '03 D2 Td5 Auto
    '03 D2a Td5 Auto

  5. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eevo View Post
    new evidence is bringing this into doubt.


    thats not science.
    I have not seen any evidence to bring into doubt the established energy levels in the molecule that make CO2 act as a greenhouse gas. To change this will need a change in the basics of atomic physics, something that has been abundantly supported by data over the last hundred years, and is the basis of all modern chemistry, especially physical chemistry.
    John

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  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by AK83 View Post
    ....

    What you're glossing over and, or ignoring is the point that they're use of the term drought includes consumption as a part of it's measure!

    .....
    And the other part that is often ignored is the amount of evaporation. This is exacerbated by high temperatures, low humidities and strong winds. The variation in this is probably at least as important as human consumption, and in many cases the 'consumption' by the natural environment in trees and other vegetation both using it in building their tissues and in transpiration is at least as great as the human consumption.
    John

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  7. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDNSW View Post
    I have not seen any evidence to bring into doubt the established energy levels in the molecule that make CO2 act as a greenhouse gas. To change this will need a change in the basics of atomic physics, something that has been abundantly supported by data over the last hundred years, and is the basis of all modern chemistry, especially physical chemistry.

    oh, if we know everything about it then, no further funding for research is required.
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  8. #938
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    From someone who worked in related industries.

    LES CROWE

    I am writing this because I am appalled at the amount of near hysterical reaction to
    the recent NSW and Qld bush-fires. My reasoning is not so much about the fires or
    the people effected, but about whether “man made” climate change is the
    underlying cause. Before I go further, my stance is not so much a personal but
    rather a professional reaction.

    I begin by telling those of you who don’t know, for a period of some 40 years, my
    work as a loss adjuster was involved with natural disasters, ranging from Cyclone
    Tracey through to a lesser involvement in 2009. I was appointed as National Chief
    Loss Adjuster, an advisory role, to the Insurance Council of Australia on all natural
    disasters but particularly bush-fires. This role was interactive with all agencies and
    spanned more than 10 years. It was both proactive in planning stages and reactive
    after the event. I was heavily involved in the 1983 Victorian fires.

    I acknowledge the advice of The Bureau of Meteorology and the Climate Council, is a reality to the effect the projected changes to climate, was derived from modelling, which strongly suggested change would occur unless man made contribution was reduced,.
    Somehow or other, sections of our communities, have taken control of the scientific argument about the future and have interpreted it to mean the change has already occurred. Not so. Records I have seen, actually show that the slight upward trend in temperatures on a global scale seem to be in direct line with the earth’s ever occurring”natural” climatic change patterns. History shows numerous ice ages, when the planet cooled, to corresponding heating up periods, over billions of years. This has always occurred. It is the nature of our planet and cannot be influenced by what man can or cannot do. On the other hand, the impact of humans is a future projection, well founded on scientific modelling.
    The true position, despite all the comments about what the current fires mean in a
    climate change scenario, is nobody can tell if there is any connection.

    What I can tell you with absolute certainty is that these fires , as bad as they were,
    are no more intense, widespread, dangerous or unexpected in outcome, to many
    previous and historic events . There is no accurate method to measure such
    outcomes. However, it is possible to look at prevailing conditions and contributing factors to seek patterns or influential factors.

    Take a look at the following comparative data, much of which has been ignored by
    the frantic argument to directly link man made climate change to the outbreak and
    effects of these latest fires. I detail some of the arguments I have heard go
    unchallenged or are simply ignored and unreported, particularly by the ABC who
    are the appointed official national disaster communications service.

    This the first time such fires have been rated as catastrophic.. True, but not
    because they were rated any worse than many previous fires. In 2009, following the bush-fire inquiry, the defined categories of fire were renamed. Catastrophic
    was introduced as the most severe warning. So this description was never
    intended to make people think they were the worst fires ever. I have heard many
    media reports entrench this mistake

    The fires are occurring earlier because of climate extending the summer risk.
    Can only be applicable in the North. However, NSW has a long history of
    November and December bush-fires. In 1944, the Blue Mountains lost 27 homes
    and other property in November. Since then, I can recall at least 3 other similarly
    timed events in NSW. So this year was not unique, as has been strongly inferred by
    many reporters. In southern areas, January and February have historically been
    prone to outbreaks.

    These fires are the most widespread and worst ever. They certainly were
    disastrous. However, it is impossible to compare unless it can be based on raw
    data…. Have more lives been lost than ever before. No, although 1 is far too many,
    in 2009, 173 people died. In 1983, 75 people died. In 1962, 62 people died. In
    that decade one of the victims in Eltham North was George Crowe, my Grandfather
    and Grandma’s father in law. In 1967, it was reported that 2,600 square
    kms of land was devastated in just 5 hours (Just try to imagine that ferocity).
    In 2009 there were 2030 homes destroyed and in 1983 there were 6,000 homes
    and other buildings destroyed.. Does this define which fire was the worst. NO.
    All fires are bad but to try and claim the current fires are the worst ever is a blatant
    disregard for historical fact. Worse still, it is a deliberate attempt to scare people
    into accepting the fanatical side of the global warming argument, by accepting
    radical changes to our economy, power generation and mining {let alone agriculture
    and transport} must occur right now and in a premature manner. The so called re-definition of the predicted changes into an emergency, is a way to virtually destroy our entire way of life.

    The fires were started as a result of climate changed conditions. Clearly wrong.
    80% of fires were started by people either deliberately or accidentally lighting them.
    Dry lightning strikes have been long recorded and are nothing new.

    What has our Media and ABC generally ignored. One of the most clear data
    based facts, reported out of the 2009 Inquiry, was the finding that fire intensity is
    proportional to and severely aggravated by fire loads created by undergrowth and
    forest floor debris accumulation. We can’t control wind and heat but we can
    control fuel load. Ask any active Rural or Country serving fireman what they think of this hazard. Then ask your Green Party representative, why they have influenced
    the management of National Park maintenance, as well as local government reserves, to leave far too much of the forest floor intact at any cost. Winter back burning,
    firewood removal and general debris clearance has been widely restricted by stupid
    laws. They argue it preserves natural ecosystems that rely on such decaying
    material. Well, systematic removal of this fuel load may well disrupt some
    Eco-systems, consider this;. A bush-fire positively destroys them all.

    The only identifiable and recently introduced risk factor, is the environmental law
    changes that have impacted a fire’s intensity potential and capacity to burn faster and hotter.

    Find this hard to believe, Go into a forest and try setting fire to a living gum tree
    with a match. Now stoop down and see if you get any better results from the dead
    and therefore dry undergrowth at your feet. This is the effect ember spread has
    on adjoining bush-land.

    There is much more to say about bringing sanity back into discussions and I have my own opinion that if you believe the science of global warming, stick to the science and ignore the fanatical self professed experts, like some of the current crop of Green Party politicians and shrieking media, self appointed, experts. No, before it can be said. I was not self appointed in my former career positions.
    I can only reflect that the handful of ex-firemen who were paraded before the media, may have had other agendas. The spokesman listed his current occupation as a “Climate Change Consultant”. Another said outright, on camera, that fires have always been linked to climate change. I prefer to listen to our Indigenous community who talk of bush-fire management over thousands of years. - oops before any hint of an industrial age, meat production or mining.

  9. #939
    DiscoMick Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by AK83 View Post
    You have to understand something about science.
    Reading someone's hypothesis that this is the way it may pan out, is not 'data'. That's what this dipole/multipole whatever number of poles hypothessis is .. a speculation.
    Hard evidence is data.
    The hard evidence .. the data captured to date by the BoM .. the Bureau of Meteorology .. the science gurus you turn to for guidance have stored data showing that rain fall is getting higher on the whole.

    What you're glossing over and, or ignoring is the point that they're use of the term drought includes consumption as a part of it's measure!

    Unless you have actual data ... measured data from any source that points to the technical use of the term drought(which is just a measure of average rainfall) getting worse in some way .. which would contradict the data captured by the BoM .. your claims are empty.

    God may as well be causing it, we know that He works in mysterious ways.

    True science doesn't . It works in measured ways. You measure, you have a data point. You post that data point, job done.
    Climate science then takes that data point, distorts it to suit their agenda, and make any number of claims they like.
    They could easily have distorted their assessment to go the other way if they liked.
    Climate change makes all types of weather, droughts and cyclones, more extreme so there is nothing significant in rainfall being higher in some areas and lower in others. That fits the pattern of a warming climate.

    The Indian Ocean Dipolar is one of a number of indicators which are based on huge amounts of data of all types. If you want data, there it is.

  10. #940
    DiscoMick Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by drivesafe View Post
    LES CROWE

    I am writing this because I am appalled at the amount of near hysterical reaction to
    the recent NSW and Qld bush-fires. My reasoning is not so much about the fires or
    the people effected, but about whether “man made” climate change is the
    underlying cause. Before I go further, my stance is not so much a personal but
    rather a professional reaction.

    I begin by telling those of you who don’t know, for a period of some 40 years, my
    work as a loss adjuster was involved with natural disasters, ranging from Cyclone
    Tracey through to a lesser involvement in 2009. I was appointed as National Chief
    Loss Adjuster, an advisory role, to the Insurance Council of Australia on all natural
    disasters but particularly bush-fires. This role was interactive with all agencies and
    spanned more than 10 years. It was both proactive in planning stages and reactive
    after the event. I was heavily involved in the 1983 Victorian fires.

    I acknowledge the advice of The Bureau of Meteorology and the Climate Council, is a reality to the effect the projected changes to climate, was derived from modelling, which strongly suggested change would occur unless man made contribution was reduced,.
    Somehow or other, sections of our communities, have taken control of the scientific argument about the future and have interpreted it to mean the change has already occurred. Not so. Records I have seen, actually show that the slight upward trend in temperatures on a global scale seem to be in direct line with the earth’s ever occurring”natural” climatic change patterns. History shows numerous ice ages, when the planet cooled, to corresponding heating up periods, over billions of years. This has always occurred. It is the nature of our planet and cannot be influenced by what man can or cannot do. On the other hand, the impact of humans is a future projection, well founded on scientific modelling.
    The true position, despite all the comments about what the current fires mean in a
    climate change scenario, is nobody can tell if there is any connection.

    What I can tell you with absolute certainty is that these fires , as bad as they were,
    are no more intense, widespread, dangerous or unexpected in outcome, to many
    previous and historic events . There is no accurate method to measure such
    outcomes. However, it is possible to look at prevailing conditions and contributing factors to seek patterns or influential factors.

    Take a look at the following comparative data, much of which has been ignored by
    the frantic argument to directly link man made climate change to the outbreak and
    effects of these latest fires. I detail some of the arguments I have heard go
    unchallenged or are simply ignored and unreported, particularly by the ABC who
    are the appointed official national disaster communications service.

    This the first time such fires have been rated as catastrophic.. True, but not
    because they were rated any worse than many previous fires. In 2009, following the bush-fire inquiry, the defined categories of fire were renamed. Catastrophic
    was introduced as the most severe warning. So this description was never
    intended to make people think they were the worst fires ever. I have heard many
    media reports entrench this mistake

    The fires are occurring earlier because of climate extending the summer risk.
    Can only be applicable in the North. However, NSW has a long history of
    November and December bush-fires. In 1944, the Blue Mountains lost 27 homes
    and other property in November. Since then, I can recall at least 3 other similarly
    timed events in NSW. So this year was not unique, as has been strongly inferred by
    many reporters. In southern areas, January and February have historically been
    prone to outbreaks.

    These fires are the most widespread and worst ever. They certainly were
    disastrous. However, it is impossible to compare unless it can be based on raw
    data…. Have more lives been lost than ever before. No, although 1 is far too many,
    in 2009, 173 people died. In 1983, 75 people died. In 1962, 62 people died. In
    that decade one of the victims in Eltham North was George Crowe, my Grandfather
    and Grandma’s father in law. In 1967, it was reported that 2,600 square
    kms of land was devastated in just 5 hours (Just try to imagine that ferocity).
    In 2009 there were 2030 homes destroyed and in 1983 there were 6,000 homes
    and other buildings destroyed.. Does this define which fire was the worst. NO.
    All fires are bad but to try and claim the current fires are the worst ever is a blatant
    disregard for historical fact. Worse still, it is a deliberate attempt to scare people
    into accepting the fanatical side of the global warming argument, by accepting
    radical changes to our economy, power generation and mining {let alone agriculture
    and transport} must occur right now and in a premature manner. The so called re-definition of the predicted changes into an emergency, is a way to virtually destroy our entire way of life.

    The fires were started as a result of climate changed conditions. Clearly wrong.
    80% of fires were started by people either deliberately or accidentally lighting them.
    Dry lightning strikes have been long recorded and are nothing new.

    What has our Media and ABC generally ignored. One of the most clear data
    based facts, reported out of the 2009 Inquiry, was the finding that fire intensity is
    proportional to and severely aggravated by fire loads created by undergrowth and
    forest floor debris accumulation. We can’t control wind and heat but we can
    control fuel load. Ask any active Rural or Country serving fireman what they think of this hazard. Then ask your Green Party representative, why they have influenced
    the management of National Park maintenance, as well as local government reserves, to leave far too much of the forest floor intact at any cost. Winter back burning,
    firewood removal and general debris clearance has been widely restricted by stupid
    laws. They argue it preserves natural ecosystems that rely on such decaying
    material. Well, systematic removal of this fuel load may well disrupt some
    Eco-systems, consider this;. A bush-fire positively destroys them all.

    The only identifiable and recently introduced risk factor, is the environmental law
    changes that have impacted a fire’s intensity potential and capacity to burn faster and hotter.

    Find this hard to believe, Go into a forest and try setting fire to a living gum tree
    with a match. Now stoop down and see if you get any better results from the dead
    and therefore dry undergrowth at your feet. This is the effect ember spread has
    on adjoining bush-land.

    There is much more to say about bringing sanity back into discussions and I have my own opinion that if you believe the science of global warming, stick to the science and ignore the fanatical self professed experts, like some of the current crop of Green Party politicians and shrieking media, self appointed, experts. No, before it can be said. I was not self appointed in my former career positions.
    I can only reflect that the handful of ex-firemen who were paraded before the media, may have had other agendas. The spokesman listed his current occupation as a “Climate Change Consultant”. Another said outright, on camera, that fires have always been linked to climate change. I prefer to listen to our Indigenous community who talk of bush-fire management over thousands of years. - oops before any hint of an industrial age, meat production or mining.
    Interesting ideas, thanks for sharing them.
    Last official figures I read were that about 50% of fires were started by humans, but anyway. However they start, the warming climate is making the countryside more flammable.

    Hazard reduction is certainly important and the NSW Government claims to have spent all of its budget on it and then some, so it's wrong to claim the Greens, who are not in government, are preventing hazard reduction, because hazard reduction is happening.

    No amount of government funded hazard reduction will replace the previous national Aboriginal system of systematic firestick hazard reduction, which was an integral part of their culture and land management practices. Once they were prevented from managing the land, scrub replaced cultivated grasses and fires became hotter and more dangerous.

    Insurance claims are only one way of measuring bushfire severity. Many fires, such as the ones currently burning north-west of Sydney, do huge ecological damage, such as in forests, but have limited impact on built structures.

    My opinion is the current fires don't of themselves prove climate change, but they are certainly consistent with it.

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