Thread: Thomas PTO & 12V electric winch

Originally Posted by disco2hse

Some good research there and great pages you found.

Good score on the motor too. Those things are not too cheap

About the small gear on the electric motor, remove the larger gears first and then just drift it out. It will not take much effort but it is a very close fit so if you can bring it out smoothly it will come free.

For the mount, I have seen plenty of different ways to mount a winch. If you are mid-mounting it then you will probably need to build a cradle that spans the gap between the chassis rails and have it bolted in between. You will also need to make certain it does not run the risk of twisting the bracket, though.

Some time ago there was a posting that showed a very clever pulley system for mid-mounted winches that enabled the user to pull from the rear and front in much the same way that you describe. It is here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/840258-post148.html

Alan

Hey Alan,

yeah feeling very pleased right now. Cost was well worth it when I think I almost bought a cheap chinese thing. Quality like this has stood up to time well. Incidently, I was quoted AUD500+GST for a new motor via winch industries. Freight would have bumped it up another AUD50-75 I guess. Rate of exchange on top of this, well, not cheap whatever way it is looked at like you say.

I pulled it all down yesterday and cleaned it all. No teeth missing, and the worst issue was surface rust (from previous water ingress) and a stripped thread. Oh, and the pinion gear not budging off the motor shaft too. Cleaned the electric motor out today in-situ after I couldn't get the small pinion to budge.

I got your message here to late about drifting it out. I have a question about that too. Do you mean drift it out with the gear on out through where there would be a seal? The pinion gear is approx 35mm diameter. Or do you mean drift the motor shaft out off the gear? I was afraid to wack it too hard in case I broke the aluminium gearbox housing.

Ah well... anyway, today I put it all back together, re-oiled it and sealed everything up etc. I have had a winch on this truck before with big wires and one of those sealed solenoid units (I have seen them referred to as superwinch style) so I stripped all that out of the truck and wired it to the new winch. I was told that the motor of this was buggered from oil leakage and then use and they had bought a new one. I opened it up and cleaned it and it only had a wee bit of oil in it but a loose connection and a bad earth. After remedying both these i got the motor going. It goes but I have yet to put it to some weight so it may well be knackered but I think it might also be a case of previous owner assuming the wrong problem. I still have that new motor if required.

Yes, the system you reference is the Fohrs (spelling) system. I saw it a few years back and ever since, have been refining it in my head to suit various winches etc - day dreaming etc. I don't intend to go into the chassis rail but will follow it closely on the passenger side. Same sort of set up as depicted on the rear and a similar set on front.

I will be setting up a cradle for the winch and it will not twist by the time my natural tendancy to over-engineer is acted on. I have plans to put in a four point roll cage in the rear and the work I do for that will also have steel for the winch cradle. It will be spool centred between the rails of my tray back which will be reinforced and tied in better to the chassis so in effect it will be a second chassis above the LR one and this frame will be designed to take the weight of the pull rearward then forwards. Kind of hard to describe an maybe I should scetch out a few things for my own sake so I don't over over-engineer I intend to be able to see it spool up under load from the drivers seat byway of the rear window so I can keep an eye on it. The first run of rope out from the winch will basically be the full distance from the head of the tray to the rear and so it should spool in layers nicely without bunching up. Time will tell whether theory reflects the reality...

Cheers for the heads up on the drifting. I will revisit this if I need to replace the motor.

Phil

Originally Posted by windsock

I was quoted AUD500+GST for a new motor via winch industries. Freight would have bumped it up another AUD50-75 I guess. Rate of exchange on top of this, well, not cheap whatever way it is looked at like you say.

I think that works out at the same from Pan Pacific, maybe a bit more.

Do you mean drift it out with the gear on out through where there would be a seal? The pinion gear is approx 35mm diameter. Or do you mean drift the motor shaft out off the gear? I was afraid to wack it too hard in case I broke the aluminium gearbox housing.

Definitely not a good thing to break the casing. Once the bolts that hold the motor in place are removed the only thing holding it onto the casing is the gear on the motor output shaft. This is removed by carefully sliding the gear off the end of the shaft. The method for doing that is what is referred to as drifting which means you apply even and measured pressure on at least three points around the gear and pull it off. I was able to do it with just my fingers but it required some leverage to get it started.

I think it might also be a case of previous owner assuming the wrong problem. I still have that new motor if required.

Hah. Good score

Kind of hard to describe an maybe I should scetch out a few things for my own sake so I don't over over-engineer I intend to be able to see it spool up under load from the drivers seat byway of the rear window so I can keep an eye on it. The first run of rope out from the winch will basically be the full distance from the head of the tray to the rear and so it should spool in layers nicely without bunching up. Time will tell whether theory reflects the reality...

Would really like to see some pics when it is done, while it is being done

Sounds like you will have a great set up.

Cheers
Alan

Originally Posted by disco2hse

Definitely not a good thing to break the casing. Once the bolts that hold the motor in place are removed the only thing holding it onto the casing is the gear on the motor output shaft. This is removed by carefully sliding the gear off the end of the shaft. The method for doing that is what is referred to as drifting which means you apply even and measured pressure on at least three points around the gear and pull it off. I was able to do it with just my fingers but it required some leverage to get it started.

Would really like to see some pics when it is done, while it is being done

Hi Alan,

OK, I tried to get the gear off the shaft for a day and a half of intermittent attempts and loads of WD40 to no avail. I was trying to put pressure on upwards using leverage off the shaft while tapping the shaft sharply but not hard enough to deform the tip. No budge. That was when I decided to put it (motor and winch) all back together after a good clean to see if it went. It did, so will leave it as is till I can get to operate it under load to see if it is actually any good. If the motor is no good under load I will then revisit the motor shaft drive gear and get it off somehow. It won't be easy though...

...the space between the gear and the gearbox housing is approx 5mm. Space under the gear is approx 5mm. Not a lot of space to get a gear puller in there, three arms or two. I tried to make one but using mild steel it deformed easily under pressure. I have bought a cheap chrome vad steel two arm set and will grind the arms down slowly to get them to fit and try that if I have to. only other option is to take it to a gearbox rebuilder in the hope they have puller the right size.

I will take photos throughout the build and may well start a build thread, we'll see.

Cheers,

Phil

I can't remember how much space is in there accurately. About 5mm sounds right.

Might need the application of an engineer or two spread over it. It might also free up once it has been used a few times and been twisted back and forth a bit.

Alan

I thought instead of continuing the threadjack of the synthetic rope thread, I would revisit a thread I started about this winch way back when...

In the synthetic rope thread, I said...

Originally Posted by windsock

/threadjackon/

Yes, the Thomas is a low mounted winch uhh. I was looking at altering the spool width on mine so I can then run it in under-wind mode without rope rubbing the gearhousing. I was just going to make a two piece wood insert to bolt in place to 'push' the rope alignment further away from the gearhouse. Then, being under-wind, I could lift the whole winch up three - four inches and the rope won't rub on the rails of my deck (being mid-mount rear facing).

/threadjackoff/

Then Alan said...

Originally Posted by disco2hse

Sorry guys

Instead, get hold of Maurice:
Winch Industries P/L
Archerfield Precision Engineering
2 Coin Street, Moorooka 4105
PO Box 206, Acacia Ridge 4110
Ph: 07 3875 1568, Fax: 07 32774316
Email: admin@winch.com.au

You can actually change the sprocket and worm drive so it turns the other way

Hi Alan,

Yes, Maurice has been of assitance in the past when I started this project. I need to clarify what you are saying though before I get back in touch with him about parts.

By doing this, are you saying that the spur gear body would then be on the opposite side of the worm drive body instead?

If so, then this would not be a good thing for me as my winch has the "HC" model designation, it has the Hand-Crank shaft exiting the gearbody from the first large spur gear from the small drive gear from the motor.

I have mounted this winch facing the rear of the truck with the crank shaft clearly accessible by a long shafted crank handle (still under construction) from the rear of the truck.

If I have misconstrued what you are saying then could you clarify?

Cheers,

Phil

ps, I tried to upload some photos but photobucket is having fits atm.

Yeah, wasn't certain how you mean about needing bits of wood, etc. I assumed the position (that is, vertical height) was the problem and that can be alleviated by turning the drum in the opposite direction and raising/lowering the whole shebang accordingly. Re-reading your post I think I have a better idea.

With mine though, if I had wanted it to be high mounted but with the rope being fed in at the same height I would have needed to have the drum to be turning in the opposite direction (at the moment it feeds in from the top, changing the main sprocket and worm drive would see it feed in from the bottom). The alternative would be that the rope would be feeding in at the new higher level and that'd be too high for a winch.

Just re-read this thread and realised there are no photos of progress putting this project together. I've only got it sitting in temporarily so to speak so I could use it over the summer for firewood. Now I have stable work hours (and income) I will rebuild it to a better finish but it is functional as it sits and only minor positional and framework changes are required in the rebulid. The rebuild will also incorporate a four point roll over protection for the cab.

This is obviously the rear exit of the current single line. I have built this fairlead mount bracket up to take a snatch block also. A bit fiddly to get the snatch block out and I will most likely weld it in there and use a separate block to double pull once it is a settled rearward - forward design. You can see the hole I have cut for the shackle to hold the snatch block in the shot below.





The winch was basically mounted into a frame of it's own and then a cradle mount was cut into the existing deck to take this frame (50mmx50mmx5mm angle iron). This is the area that is to be rebuilt to include the roll frame. It functioned well over the summer with various pulls some light and some very heavy double purchase pulls.



Here you can see the hand crank shaft by line of sight from the rear of the truck. I will be making a crank handle of some sort to be a push-on fit with lock pin. Hand crank in or out, as required.



I also discovered why I could not get the first small pinion gear off - a hidden grub screw... Once this was undone and a burred shaft was cleaned up the gear virtually fell off...



Cheers,

Phil

Cheers, that gives me a much better idea

I remember the diagrams of the winch system and I had the time and inclination I would really have liked to set that up too. People I have spoken to since, that have seen or used that system, did say that once you got used to it the flexibility was great.

I assume you are still going to route the cable around to the front at some stage?

I see you are still running the 12V electric motor

Oh, and one of the guys in the Auckland 4WD club suggested using an actuator (air or electrical driven) on my free-spool dog handle so I don't have to get out of the cab Anyway I thought, where you have yours, this might be a good idea because the only way you can rotate the drum to engage the drive, with the flat deck on, is by pulling the cable out from the rear end of the tray and pulling on the handle at the winch end of the tray, at the same time. Unless of course you leave it engaged all the time and use the motor to feed out.

By the way, interested to see how you have arranged the exhaust pipe. Does it go over the chassis cross member? I have to do similar because the factory fitted pipe work has front main muffler hanging about three inches below the chassis rail It now sits slightly higher than the bottom edge of the rail and means the muffler is not continually getting whacked, bent, and buckled.