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Looking more and more like realistic options, both of them. Even a SH Y62 will set you back over $70K. My DIL has one ( paid a lot more than that ) and while it's a great basketball/junior footy mum's car a D4 it isn't. And it's huge, like a LC300. Brilliant tow car though.Quote:
Originally Posted by loanrangie
Like the idea of a TDV8 3 or 4.
Interesting question!
When is too little too late? (I know, broken english but I guess it gets the point across) You see, land rover started slipping such a long time ago that by the time the 80's rolled along they were being overtaken/replaced left right and centre by (mainly) the Japanese and Toyota in particular and once the 90's started it was a done deal. I feel the grenadier would have made more sense in the 90's as the defender 2.0 and not today. However...
Would LR have brought out the Grenadier in say 2016 (and not have the break between the old and "new") I am pretty sure it would have been a tough crowd. The purist would still shy away since it is no longer a defender that was fixable with a hammer and the posers would perhaps have felt it was not modern enough. One thing would be for certain, for what it's worth these days, LR would have been able to put it marketing weight behind the car and have continued a lineage. I truly feel that that would have made a huge difference. We would possibly not even see the, how shall I put it, messy influencer situation where Ineos IMHO is dropping the ball in promoting the vehicle but landrover would most likely have send the new defenders on some gruelling trip etc. etc. (in the 90's they would certainly have been introduced into the camel trophy). On the other hand, those who want a defender as a poser vehicle would still be buying them as we are seeing today so it would have been a much better and much more quickly adopted vehicle.
I believe we or at least I came to the conclusion discussing the Grenadier many moons ago that what broke the deal for me was simply price and a number of unfortunate design decisions wether they are understandable or not. We could debate on wether LR would have brought out the Grenadier-Defender as it is and what they would have done with the pricing, engine options etc. I find it unlikely that the Grenadier-Defender would have been exactly the same and I also believe that would have made the car far more palatable for a large number of buyers. The question is, would they have also recognized that price was a large factor of the charm of the defender and tried to keep that down? At that same time I believe I also mentioned that where LR has gone was/is the only logical path for them. To be fair, I see the new defender every now and then around here but I see no grenadiers.
To put this into perspective, there are 31 grenadiers registered on the road as of today and the cheapest model costs 70K euro's in tax (that is on top of VAT!) and the most expensive one costs 94K in tax. the commercial variant (which has a tax break) costs around 21K in tax but that break will end januari next year.
The new defender meanwhile has 2494 registered on the road as of today and the cheapest model costs was a few hundred quid, not sure how they managed that :) Probably a wrecked import that was put back on the road, whereas the most expensive costs 95K in tax.
This paints a picture. There are FAR more Defenders out there whilst the luxury tax on the top models at least is the same. The difference here is that the defender does come with a V8 or a 4 banger option and that makes all the difference over here (and unfortunately many places these days) so posers can drive a Defender, but pay as little as possible. Now Australia is a completely different place, outside of the cities that is, so there is in fact a market for a tough vehicle there. If it would succeed I would guess it would there or in Africa perhaps. Then again, Toyota had it easy. They simply came along with a "better" product and they still have that arguably. It will not be as easy to replace them, certainly not with the pricing difference of a 70 series vs a Grenadier.
Cheers,
-P
I pose the question based on your last comment….
What makes the Grenadier “tough” and the new Defender “not so”??
Curves?
Curves are a marked departure from the old but that is mostly design language. One could argue that looks play a part and that all cars that are perceived to be tough are "square". I do not feel that to be the most important difference.
I think we can safely say, prematurely I might have to eat my words, that the drivetrain of the Grenadier is far tougher than most 4bee's. Air suspension on the defender (though you can get springs as an option?) is regarded as a vulnerability. Though, when I look at your average toober these days at least 2 popular ones have fitted air-ride suspension lately and thus far without problems... Then again I am hoping they are certainly more capable than perceived since I am taking my air-ride equipped range around the globe soon (tm) [wink11]
Both cars suffer from too modern engines (with plastic parts) and gearboxes that can go wrong, not much of a difference there.
Lastly, tyre / wheel size is a big thing where I believe the Grenadier wins out.
Then again, perhaps you were referring to my words "a tough crowd"?
Cheers,
-P
OI!. Nothing is tougher than 4bees (except Ms 4 bee) possibly. Don't drag me into your arguments.[bighmmm][bigrolf]Quote:
Originally Posted by prelude
Without placing orders, you are pretty much where I'm at. My MY14 D4 does everything that both the Defender and Gren does, without the compromises of both of them. It'll take a big push to get me out of it, even pushing 340,000km as I'm at now. My father has a standing request that he'll buy my D4 to tow his van with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombie
I still like the look of the Grenadier - and perhaps it will be my next/last vehicle.
I am on a few FB groups and the Grenadier is far from perfect - but I always said I would buy a gen2, not a first gen.
In the meantime I love my new Defender (on coils). Zero issues, 2.5 years old and 96,000km
The last long trip in my new Defender in outback NSW required mostly driving on sealed and made roads. A lot of opportunities to explore were officially closed due to conditions (both sides of the Darling River run). The "4WD only" section from Tibooburra to Wanaaring was interesting in two places. It didn't matter if you were driving a Grenadier or a Defender. So the heroic idea of driving a rugged 4WD in Leyland Bros fashion is largely now become myth. Given the choice, I'm happy with mine. Of course there is always the CSR!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by one_iota
Its just a rather long bush track with a fair bit of small sand dunes and far too many corrugations!