Thread: Climate Change and our Land of Fire, Flood and Drought.

Just a few processes needed to extract and process:

Lithium
Silica
Alumina
Copper
Silver
Bauxite
Gold
(There’s more but those will do)

Multiple chemical processes, tens of thousands of litres of diesel in mining, processing, shipping, delivery.

Several processes to make the silicone wafers, the glass, the Aluminium extrusions, the copper wire, the plastic moulded connectors and fittings.

Shipping from OS on Cargo vessels
Port un/loading, local haulage, installation.
Add the electricity consumed in all the above....


Multiply this out and consider that in 20 years every panel will be useless and the battery will have been replaced twice... now expand that to the model of everyone having these set ups.... it’s an exponential amount of mining, production and processing.

Where exactly is the Green component

It’s simply not good enough for people to say “every little bit helps, I’m doing my part” when little bits don’t help, it’s either All-In or no benefit.

Simple maths says all the models currently proposed can not and will not, work.... and the ones that have potential to work either challenge the current dynamic of Human Privileges (rights) or would be considered morally questionable.

Originally Posted by SpudHeadTed

You might be surprised. I think there are more people who would prefer a quiet candle lit evening on the harbour, especially when they know it’s for alternate energy development.

Significantly more people attend arts events than sporting events every year in Australia. The big brash spectacle is not all people want.

I can’t see contemporary music, musical theatre or comedy being a huge hit across Sydney harbour.

It’s a popular Melbourne thing... the crowds likely to be out are festival goers - of which ticket sales dropped significantly in recent years.

In an irony (no matter how small)... Candle lit = Carbon producing.

Now let’s hold it in summer, in a crowd, during fire season. Selling charcoal bbq food


And you missed the entire component about the $1M being useless in context of Start ups.

Originally Posted by Vern

All these things you are planning on installing are manufactured with the help of electricity, which is most likely produced by coal burning, also a great deal of mining involved in the process. And if you are planning on sharing excess electricity, sounds like you will still be hooked up to the grid As Kermit says, "it's not easy being green"

Sounds like you think the "grid" is some sort of evil, the grid is not the problem, it is some of the power generation connected to the grid.

Originally Posted by RANDLOVER

Sounds like you think the "grid" is some sort of evil, the grid is not the problem, it is some of the power generation connected to the grid.

Even the generation attached isn’t as evil as it’s portrayed.

Much of the cable has been around much longer than solar panels and batteries will last.

One thing none of the current “eco” generation has is longevity. Wind farm R&M is very high, a significant amount of the gear is imported, and wears/damages quickly.



Here’s an interesting ‘twist’ to becoming greener.
One of the key reasons India etc want Australian coal is to replace their poorer grade gear - ours has far less Sulphur, and by substituting our coal for their they get a pollution reduction... in line with the rollout of cleaner energy sources this becomes an immediate process improvement / step change with little up front cost on ageing assets.

Originally Posted by Tombie

Just a few processes needed to extract and process:

Lithium
Silica
Alumina
Copper
Silver
Bauxite
Gold
(There’s more but those will do)

Multiple chemical processes, tens of thousands of litres of diesel in mining, processing, shipping, delivery.

Several processes to make the silicone wafers, the glass, the Aluminium extrusions, the copper wire, the plastic moulded connectors and fittings.

Shipping from OS on Cargo vessels
Port un/loading, local haulage, installation.
Add the electricity consumed in all the above.....

A.k.a "embodied energy" from Solar Panel Construction — Clean Energy Reviews (down near the bottom of the linked page) Our transport component is pro'ly higher with panels coming from OS, although my panels were designed in a Nordic country, they were actually made in Singapore IIRC.

A typical silicon crystalline solar panel will generate enough energy to repay the embodied energy within 3-4 years of installation, however as panel efficiency increases this is expected to reduce to less than 2 years within the next decade.

Originally Posted by Tombie

…………………..Here’s an interesting ‘twist’ to becoming greener.
One of the key reasons India etc want Australian coal is to replace their poorer grade gear - ours has far less Sulphur, and by substituting our coal for their they get a pollution reduction... in line with the rollout of cleaner energy sources this becomes an immediate process improvement / step change with little up front cost on ageing assets.

I'm all for transitioning to clean(er) coal then to gas, although the leaked methane does concern me, as it is far more damaging than CO2, I just wonder how much time we have, actually I think we have till 2050 to get to zero emissions. Germany's High Court recently stopped permits for more open cast mining of some it's local coal, actually it is so dirty, it can't really be called coal but rather lignite.

Thanks for the link. Panels themselves aren’t too bad.

Embodied energy doesn’t account for:
Transport to site, support structures and mountings etc, operational or disposal.

Factor the Tradie, his fuel, the extrusions to mount it on your roof, cabling, the Inverter unit.
Transhipping emissions, the decommissioning and replacement panels and the recycling.

Ongoing line maintenance (assuming grid connect), batteries if not.

Whilst a panel may pay back in 2-4 years, once you factor in installation and disposal (WOL), it’s significantly higher in its impact. There’s currently no system to recycle and process the Panels or Batteries.

Although energy is a good measure - it doesn’t capture the chemical and natural processes needed. The WOL process as you would be aware is far far more complex.

I’m looking for the enviro data we had for all these processes including mining - if I can find the data I’ll post more.

Originally Posted by RANDLOVER

Sounds like you think the "grid" is some sort of evil, the grid is not the problem, it is some of the power generation connected to the grid.

No, never said there was an issue with the grid, I did say that is most likely powered by coal though.