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Thread: Replacing Td5 fuel pump with Bosch 044 inline pump

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    1. its only petrol, it pumps a lot easier than diesel Obvious
    2. its only a petrol, the fuel injection pressure you refer to as "high" over here in the diesel world we refer to "low" and "insignificant" to the point where in some engine configurations a total variance of double the stated rail pressure in your supra is inside a 1% tolerance and in some other configurations its around 1/4 of 1% and is so negligible it would be ignored as "probably gauge error or signal noise" The td5 is unit injected, the td5 eu3 series unit injectors inject at upto ~25000psi Not relevant here as we are discussing the fuel that feeds the injector. The pump that creates this pressure is part of the injector.
    3. its only a petrol, what you refer to as "injector clearance tolerances" in the diesel world amounts to "the empty supermarket car park you practice circle work in, in haulpacks" these tolerances are needed in all diesel engine injection systems, at the very minimum in just the injector to prevent the injectors from leaking or throwing bad patterns Again not relevant here
    4. in some cases the pressure realm in which a petrol engines injectors operate in is the same realm in which some diesel engines look at and go "hmm, the pressure reading on the inlet manifold seems a bit low" and thats in standard trim.ok, this one was a little unfair, I pulled the fuel pressure for the petrol engine from very early throttle body systems where the fuel injection pressure was less than 15psi the stock turbo on the td5 pushes 15-17psi Relevance?
    5. I know its not directly related to the fuel system (other than the injectors have to overcome the pressure) but in the petrol world, whats generally considered to be "high" compression over in diesel world is sometimes looked at as "and you got it to start and run like that?" 8-10:1 generally for petrols, 16-20:1 generally for diesels Relevance?
    6. in a petrol engine your fuel injection timing is not "critical" missing the injection timing by a couple of degrees wont usually result in pistons trying to turn inside out, non running of the engine or the injector cutting a hole through your pistons combustion chamber. injecting too early in all diesel engines causes diesel knock, do that enough and you'll do all sorts of nasty damage, 25000 psi is in the relm of the pressure used in some low end water jet cutters Relevance?
    7. in a petrol engine your fuel doesnt lubricate your injectors, or other parts of the fuel system to the same extent as diesel engines rely upon their fuel to. this applies to all diesel engines. Now this is relevant but only since your last post.
    8. petrol fuel systems dont generally rely on the fuel to cool the injectors to the same extent as diesels do, primarily because your injectors don't typically protrude into the combustion chamber. this applies to all diesel engines Relevant to flow.
    9. Betting that a petrol engine burnt more fuel is not helping your argument, the basic premise and attraction of diesel engines is that they are inherently more fuel effecient in terms of power produced per liter of fuel consumed. Partly this comes from the fuels density and energy density, which ties back to point 1. excluding cases where you compare a 2015 petrol to a 1940 diesel this generally applies to all diesel/petrol engine comparisons of the same capacity And again this is relevant but not due to fuel usage but cooling..

    Posting for the sake of posting.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluids View Post
    Pressure regulator regulates "pressure" ... Not flow. If the TD5 FPR is designed to work at 60 psi, then the pressure reg' can't do its job unless it's inlet pressure exceeds 60psi ... It's designed to "maintain" a 60psi downstream pressure to feed the fuel gallery, regardless of the vary flow rate.

    Interesting discussion btw. Think I'll just stick with the std pump and be happy


    Now we are getting somewhere. So if the new aftermarket pump can produce more flow than the injectors use and more pressure than the fuel pressure regulator opens at then it will work.


    Next discussion is how well it will work. As Blknight hs introduced, a lack of flow will mean the fuel will get too hot in the injector rail and cause other issues.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by woko View Post
    You will have to fit 2 pumps as the TD5 pump is a duel stage pump. the first stage supplies fuel to the fuel filter at a rate of 10psi and 30 l/hr, it then goes to the secondary pump and this goes to the fuel pressure regulator at a rate of 58psi and 180 l/hr. This is why the TD5 has 4 hoses. low pressure out, low pressure return, High pressure out and High pressure return. It could be done. The best way to remove all internals from tank would be to fit a L series Freelander tank unit, it has no pump in it. Fit maybe a electric fuel lift to the filter and then the bosch pump after the filter.







    Looks like the Bosch 044 exceeds the fuel rate and pressure of the standard HP side.

  4. #34
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    My biggest reason for changing the standard system would be for ease of repair should it fail, in a remote area or not.


    My D2 SLS is far from standard. As I said in a previous post, any mod that isn't done right can be a problem but do it right and it can be a great improvement. I use standard SLS air springs, the system is controlled by the standard SLABS. I attempted to use aftermarket air valves but the cost of valves that are strong enough to operate under the pressure meant it was cheaper to grab second hand Wabco valves the same as LR use. My compressor is now a VIAR compressor which is a pretty generic 12v compressor. The best part is all the fittings are standard fittings that I can buy at any hydraulic shop. If the compressor fails, I can just replace it with another generic compressor, I don't need the genuine and expensive LR unit. I know it wouldn't last but worst case, I could buy one of those $29 super cheap auto compressors to get by for a couple of days until I could get a decent unit. I am very happy with how it works and have no doubt I could fix it at minimal cost if I ever needed to. I feel its a massive improvement over the standard LR system that is not only complicated but expensive. As the LR system incorporates valves into the compressor unit itself it is also harder to fault find the standard system. If I had a problem, I could just unplug one valve at a time and change them around if I needed as all 4 valves are the same.


    I know this is post was totally off topic but I hope it explains my passion for wanting to improve on what LR have designed. One thing Toyotas have over us is the availability of parts. I needed a ball joint for my Drag link only last week. While the shop I was in had several for Toyotas sitting on the shelf and I believe there would be several shops here in Darwin with even more on the shelf. I have to order one in which only took 2 days but sometimes 2 days will cause a huge inconvenience. For example we are travelling to Perth via Ayers rock and the Great Central road at the end of March. All my accommodation is already booked along the way. A small break down could that could mean waiting 2 days for parts will mean changing all my accommodation, arriving late for work and various other problems. Keeping my vehicle well maintained and making something easier to fix is important to me. Knowing that should my fuel pump fail, I could grab a Bosch 044 off the self here in Darwin, chassis mount it and hook it up with a few fittings would mean I could be back on the road within half a day and still less cost than a genuine intake pump that would take at least overnight to get to Darwin.


    Happy Days.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel0407 View Post



    Looks like the Bosch 044 exceeds the fuel rate and pressure of the standard HP side.
    At what pressure does it deliver what flow rate?
    pumping what fuel and at what temp?
    whats the input restriction limitations to achieve that?

    and then youve got the other side of the problem...

    its advertised specs are so far over whats needed in terms of flow rate and max pressure, more than one place lists them as 300lph at 8 bar, whats that going to do for the rest of the system?

    the bosch 44 series has been around for quite a while...
    Dave

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  6. #36
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    Seems to me, black knight is saying landrover designed it that way, and they are gods, so don't dare deviate from their godliness, only use genuine parts, and don't modify at all because if you modify, your mods will fail, as u are not LR engineers.

    I attempted to revive an interesting topic and have grown up conversation around improving 15yr old technology using more current and readily avail parts and I really wish I hadn't now.

  7. #37
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    I know bklnighs tone of writing doesn't come across well but one thing it does is force me to answer all the possible problems.

    I am currently struggling to find flow charts for different liquids as his issue in the last post was the flow rate of of what fuel at what temp. I can answer that the flow rate doesn't drop much with pressure. It's only about 10LPM drop to 100psi so no trouble at 65psi. I can't find anything that says it's more or less with different liquids such as diesel or petrol.

    Then I'll look at the max flow of the regulator and make sure it can return the extra flow.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blknight.aus View Post
    At what pressure does it deliver what flow rate?
    pumping what fuel and at what temp?
    whats the input restriction limitations to achieve that?

    and then youve got the other side of the problem...

    its advertised specs are so far over whats needed in terms of flow rate and max pressure, more than one place lists them as 300lph at 8 bar, whats that going to do for the rest of the system?

    the bosch 44 series has been around for quite a while...
    Maybe he was drinking when he wrote this post though as he asked the flow rate then says more than one place lists the flow rate as.......

    I.can't complain. I've drank and forumed plenty of times before.

  9. #39
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    I don't post often, but have to regurgitate my TD5 pump experience. This is the thread Exploding D2
    Replacement pump has been good for 50+Km, but I am waiting for the next failure.
    A 3rd party replacement would be a good thing in the outback spares kit. I could not imagine lugging around the OEM unit.
    I can not find it, but in researching this a couple years back, I am sure that a common off the shelf pump has been successfully shoehorned into the original housing.
    Would be better still if it was external to the tank. I have permanent drawers mounted in my Disco.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel0407 View Post
    I know bklnighs tone of writing doesn't come across well but one thing it does is force me to answer all the possible problems.

    I am currently struggling to find flow charts for different liquids as his issue in the last post was the flow rate of of what fuel at what temp. I can answer that the flow rate doesn't drop much with pressure. It's only about 10LPM drop to 100psi so no trouble at 65psi. I can't find anything that says it's more or less with different liquids such as diesel or petrol.

    Then I'll look at the max flow of the regulator and make sure it can return the extra flow.
    You may find it difficult to find information. AFAIK Petrol is a given viscosity, but diesel will continue to change depending on mix and temperature.
    Cheers
    Slunnie


    ~ Discovery II Td5 ~ Discovery 3dr V8 ~ Series IIa 6cyl ute ~ Series II V8 ute ~

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