EV general discussion

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Originally Posted by DiscoDB

Have always been curious to understand why EV’s take a big range hit when towing. They seem to be as inefficient when towing as a petrol engine.

Given the amount of low down torque an electric motor can produce, I would expect them to be more energy efficient when towing - i.e. perform more like a diesel than a petrol engine.

Makes you wonder if they suffer not having a gearbox to keep the motor at its most efficient operating point.

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Robert Pepper covered this topic within the last year on a couple of his vids. Quite interesting to watch.

Top reasons why electric vehicles cannot tow long distances - explained - YouTube

EV vs diesel - tow test in detail! - YouTube

Electric vehicle vs diesel tow test - trailers and weights explained - YouTube

How viable is an EV 4x4? - YouTube

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

To put some perspective about this. Good EV's are a drag coefficient of .23. Some even .22. This is unprecedented. Any ICE car with a .2 in front is considered excellent.

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A couple of decades ago (maybe 3 decades), one of the Toyotas, probably the Celica or maybe the Camry had a drag coefficient of 3.4 and that was considered quite remarkable at the time.

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Originally Posted by cripesamighty

Robert Pepper covered this topic within the last year on a couple of his vids. Quite interesting to watch.

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It is a good explanation when comparing very aerodynamic models like the Tesla. But doesn’t fully explain why the F-150 Lightning takes a big hit when towing.

Pepper quotes the F-150 Lightning as having a Cd of 0.3 vs 0.45 for the ICE F-150, but modelling by Rivian claims the F-150 Lightning has a Cd of 0.44. (It is the Rivian R1T that has a claimed Cd of 0.3).

Rivian R1T Low Drag Coefficient Claims Analyzed In Virtual Wind Tunnel

This also compares with modelling by AirShaper that showed the standard F-150 has a Cd of 0.463.

AirShaper did show that adding a flat floor will drop the Cd by around 3%, and better aerodynamic wheels another 2%, so the results are very consistent and supports Rivian’s claim that the F-150 Lightning has a Cd of 0.44.

AirShaper - Ford F150 Aerodynamics - How to add more than 10% range! - Video

So Peppers “drag unit” comparison for the F-150 was not correct. The difference is as little as 5% (0.44 vs 0.463) and not up to 50% as stated by Pepper when he makes his comparison for the F-150.

Probably suggests that for something like the F-150 Lightning the range impact when towing is really no different to the standard F-150 (i.e. both are equally bad ). The only real difference is the ICE can carry more fuel and is quicker to refuel.

Can’t wait to see what Ford do with the Ranger Lightning to allow a more meaningful like-for-like comparison to be made.

And bring on solid-state batteries - this will be the true game changer!

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise. [bigwhistle]

Yes cars are expensive - and not everyone can afford one. None the less, Australians buy like 1,000,000 cars a year typically. I'm pretty sure I've never implied or said that 5 million Australians should go out and buy an EV each year. All I've ever said was that if you really care about the environment don't drive. If you still consider you need and want to drive anyway - drive what you have. Lastly, if you need a new car consider an EV.

But if what I'm seeing in here is any guide, actually understanding them is still a really big barrier.

Last point, looking at the 1 million figure above, consider that we have on the road about 15 million cars in Australia. It's going to take a very long time for EV's to become a measurable portion of that 15 million. Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.

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So you still think you’re saving the world by driving an EV huh?

Interesting…

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

EV's more environmentally damaging than ICE is an opinion. Everyone has one. And wanting to sell me a new one in 5 years? Isn't that standard across the whole industry? And riding my arse for turning over cars quick ... the defender is 18 years old and the other car is 54. We only replaced the golf because the family had grown out of it, and it needed to have the gearbox removed every two years to replace the clutches..

And this is the reason why we have an ICE car and a EV. If we weren't a two car family the equation would be very different at this juncture. And I don't care if an EV won't work for you. But be empathetic. Don't assume that everyone has the same requirements as yourself.

But we are - so if I need to go a long way, tow something big or carry an awful lot I can drive the Defender. The chances of two drivers in this household needing that kind of capability at the same time.. it just doesn't happen. What I've got to weigh up is the defender costs at least $20 per hundred to the $3 for the EV.

As to the chargers, yes they were scarce but they are spreading quickly around SEQ. Trips that weren't possible 18 months ago are now lined with DC chargers. I do sometimes ride to a bike ride, or drive as race support. I look at Grafton to Inverell.. in 2022 I could not have done it in an EV. This year there are fast chargers in most of the towns. Could have easily been EVable. I support Grafton to Inverell too most years (bike races that start and finish in different places require a lot of help). Anyway it's about 400 k all up. I reckon I could nearly do it in one go, but worst case I just give it 15 minutes in Warwick at the QESH charger. It's even cheap too being roughly the same price as home.

PS - yes teslas were pretty slapped together in the early days, but mine is well built. It's as good as any new car I've bought and much better than some (especially the landrover). Most people with Chinese production are saying the same thing. Didn't see that coming.
PPS Drove out to the rail trail in BNE yesterday 135k out and back. Got home with over 70%. I can just put it on charge some time over the next few days when the sun is shining. Easy.

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I'm not riding you for turning cars over, just stating the obvious - if 'we the people' buy less cars, less often and keep the ones going that we have - there will be a Nett Drop in emissions...

What I note is EV owners stating how things are getting better for them - more convenient, more chargers etc.. Whilst missing the fact that you could have purchased an ICE car of higher spec for the price, or a same spec ICE car and had enough money left over to run it for 15 years

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Originally Posted by Homestar

So you still think you’re saving the world by driving an EV huh?

Interesting…

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Not even saving any money [bigwhistle]

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Most EV's are tiny? Where do you get that from?

The biggest selling EV's in Australia last month were the Tesla Model Y and the BYD ATTO 3. The BYD Atto 3 is a big car inside. Very spacious. So is the Model Y. Fun fact for you, and current Landrover defender 110 has a cargo capacity of 2271l with the seats down. A Tesla Model Y with the seats down is 2041. If you make cars with no engine etc it's amazing how much space they have.

And yes, an there aren't many second hand EV's because in terms of numbers the majority of them on Australian roads would be less than 2 years old. Remember last june 1% EV's and this june nearly 9%. It's going to take a many years until there is a good supply of them.

In the meantime enjoy a photo of my "tiny" MY, which was Australias second most sold car last month, with a full size gravel bike in with both wheels on and room to spare.

Attachment 186157

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Sure it appears to be the size of a medium sized car,i notice VFacts list them as an SUV,which seems a bit wierd.

The majority of the other Ev's are small vehicles.

With a family vehicle,the seats will be up,so that will reduce room considerably,as with any wagon.There are huge weight issues,as Tombie said,load in rear only 130KG,due to design?With 40KG underneath in another area.Not much fun there for a family holiday,with two or three kids.Then there is GVM to worry about.Roof loading is 75Kg,similar to D4(lowest in class),but still not bad.

Another fun fact don't go comparing Defender 110, with middle row seats up as it has the smallest rear load volume in the large wagon class[smilebigeye]

IMHO,a dual cab ute with canopy is still way more practical for a family,more room,can carry more weight,more versitile,etc,etc,and doesn't necessarily have to be 4WD,there are a number of 2WD models,some High Riders.Many are also considerably cheaper than a larger EV.No wonder they are a huge seller.

Then there are the larger wagons for those that want them or need the extra seats.

No one wants something that doesn't suit their needs,which is probably the reason you settled for the larger model,not the smaller.[smilebigeye]

As i have said before,i am not bashing EV's,they will suit some for sure,in fact there is a good chance once the van goes,an EV will suit us for around town use,as a second vehicle,but at the time we will have to weigh things up.By then there will be many more brands around.
Huge depreciation of EV's could also be an issue,but that problem will not rear it's head for a good few years.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Rightfoot

Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise. [bigwhistle]

Yes cars are expensive - and not everyone can afford one. None the less, Australians buy like 1,000,000 cars a year typically. I'm pretty sure I've never implied or said that 5 million Australians should go out and buy an EV each year. All I've ever said was that if you really care about the environment don't drive. If you still consider you need and want to drive anyway - drive what you have. Lastly, if you need a new car consider an EV.

But if what I'm seeing in here is any guide, actually understanding them is still a really big barrier.

Last point, looking at the 1 million figure above, consider that we have on the road about 15 million cars in Australia. It's going to take a very long time for EV's to become a measurable portion of that 15 million. Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.

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Why? I still haven't heard any compelling arguments as to their benefits - both financially and to the environment. If they cost more, don't pay back the equivalent in fuel over their lifetime and have environmental impacts we can't yet even begin to imagine - why are we diving headlong into this tech? New cars only account for 1/4 of all vehicle sales in Australia and businesses account for around 500,000 of those so in reality Australians are buying 500,000 new cars a year out of the 4,000,000 changing hands (3,000,000 p/a used change hands) - so only around 12.5%. And I would imagine it's the top 20% of earners buying those new cars as those below the average wage wouldn't have one on their shopping list - certainly not at the moment. Most people never buy a new car in their whole lives, so by the time thy can afford an ev - it will be a clapped out ****ter with stuffed batteries.

Just another way to kick the poor while they are down - but OEM's don't care about that, they just push the shiny marketing and sell the You'll save the planet' BS line to anyone with a fat enough wallet to listen.

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Originally Posted by Homestar

Why? I still haven't heard any compelling arguments as to their benefits - both financially and to the environment. If they cost more, don't pay back the equivalent in fuel over their lifetime and have environmental impacts we can't yet even begin to imagine - why are we diving headlong into this tech? New cars only account for 1/4 of all vehicle sales in Australia and businesses account for around 500,000 of those so in reality Australians are buying 500,000 new cars a year out of the 4,000,000 changing hands (3,000,000 p/a used change hands) - so only around 12.5%. And I would imagine it's the top 20% of earners buying those new cars as those below the average wage wouldn't have one on their shopping list - certainly not at the moment. Most people never buy a new car in their whole lives, so by the time thy can afford an ev - it will be a clapped out ****ter with stuffed batteries.

Just another way to kick the poor while they are down - but OEM's don't care about that, they just push the shiny marketing and sell the You'll save the planet' BS line to anyone with a fat enough wallet to listen.

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Not arguing- Just a note Our NEW Land Rovers are not exactly on the shopping list for average wage earners [bigwhistle] I did want to buy a new D3 honestly [biggrin]

Tojo or Lexus $10,000 discount on EV caught my eye today "After its first electric SUV arrived in the US earlier this year, Lexus is already offering a steep discount for you to get your hands on one. In some cases, you can earn up to $10,000 in lease cash on the 2023 Lexus RZ."

Lexus is offering up to $10,000 off its first electric SUV

Price war OR getting rid of already redundant technology?

The cynic in me thinks the latter. The skeptic is wondering as well if the solid state announcement last week may do what I suspect solid state will do[bigwhistle]

The mass production has yet to really start in this area. The "GIGA factories" popping up everywhere will do a Ford model T ford like impact I think. perhaps, maybe or not of course[thumbsupbig]

My not favorite twitter owner other company has " 5 Tesla Gigafactories on 3 continents. The original factory is in Fremont, California, constructed before Musk coined the term Gigafactory. There are Tesla Gigafactories in Nevada, New York, Shanghai, Texas, and Berlin, plus one under construction in Mexico"

I brought up Ford as "Ford's innovation lay in his use of mass production to manufacture automobiles. He revolutionized industrial work by perfecting the assembly line, which enabled him to lower the Model T's price from $850 in 1908 to $300 in 1924, making car ownership a real possibility for a large share of the population"

Significant computerization, automation and more at 'scale' offers a much faster time frame than Mr Henry Fords innovations? I may be wrong of course.

I did chat with a Lexus RZ 450e owner on the Hume Highway last year. It was from Albury wodonga first longer drive by a dealer I think
Not for me Overview | Lexus

Actually, Henry Ford's success was because he was the first to envision a car as something an average middle class worker could own, rather than the wealthy that all previous ones were aimed at. And from there the demand enabled him to mass produce the car. Which in turn led to more sales and lower costs. But he also introduced a number of innovations that added to the success, including routine use of high alloy steels to reduce weight, and mail order parts delivery.