Thread: Dislocate or Retain?

Originally Posted by rovercare

Hmm, entering the ****ing contest here, armed a little short

Those who poo poo dislocating coils, have any of you tried them or is it just theory? just I've read heaps on this over the years and personally have no need, as most all I do, is higher speed stuff, so only require reasonable articulation, because I seem to read that just about all those that feel dislocating coils are a good thing, have tried them and maintain the same opinion that they are good, I've rarely read that someone has tried them and not liked them, in a real life scenario

I'm well aware, that some people will defend and support their decision, whether its good or bad, see this all the time,vehicle/fridge/tyres!/whatever purchase, but being the type of person stupid enough to try things before making an opinion, even after I've spent either alot of time or money and to say it was a crap idea, I'd like to know, who's tried disclocating coils, some details and why they are crap?

Dougal? Serg? looking straight at you lot

Serious Q by the way

what about this question, those that have gone to unretained, have they up graded there springs etc to suit that system and have the tried to maximise a retained system?

Myself, no i havent tried unretained.....why? because I respect the opinions of guys ALOT smarter than me that have wheeled 100'hrs more than me from play to full comp....drop out springs and relocation cones are not new by anymeans... they were popular in USA about 10 years ago untill they tried it all and found the pros and cons....and moved on.

the xeng droop spring was done by safari gard years ealrier along with the 3 links that some uk comapnies make....IMO the UK is about 7 years behind in suspention design...but I have seen some nice mods on 90's that have been stretched out to 100 and use new links front and rear.....have a good look at the Gigglepin comp truck and devon4x4 90/100 conversion...

for some good reading go over to Pirate4x4 and look up strangerover, triaged, Biggervalves puffdragon frakenrover to name a few.

Bill Larman aka portalrover/daddylonglegs/agrover is a wealth of knowledge and its a shame hes not about so much....but he got sick of the cheerleading on some forums

some of the guys here that I listern to are: Bush65, Slunnie, IsuzuRover, Dougal, Rick130, BLKnight to name but a few....

btw im just a bum chippy that surfs

Serg

Originally Posted by Dougal

Nope I haven't run them and never will. Beside the legalities I just don't see the point. Just like nitrogen filled tyres really. Except nitrogen filled tyres aren't technically illegal here.

Originally Posted by uninformed

what about this question, those that have gone to unretained, have they up graded there springs etc to suit that system and have the tried to maximise a retained system?

Myself, no i havent tried unretained.....why? because I respect the opinions of guys ALOT smarter than me that have wheeled 100'hrs more than me from play to full comp....drop out springs and relocation cones are not new by anymeans... they were popular in USA about 10 years ago untill they tried it all and found the pros and cons....and moved on.

the xeng droop spring was done by safari gard years ealrier along with the 3 links that some uk comapnies make....IMO the UK is about 7 years behind in suspention design...but I have seen some nice mods on 90's that have been stretched out to 100 and use new links front and rear.....have a good look at the Gigglepin comp truck and devon4x4 90/100 conversion...

for some good reading go over to Pirate4x4 and look up strangerover, triaged, Biggervalves puffdragon frakenrover to name a few.

Bill Larman aka portalrover/daddylonglegs/agrover is a wealth of knowledge and its a shame hes not about so much....but he got sick of the cheerleading on some forums

some of the guys here that I listern to are: Bush65, Slunnie, IsuzuRover, Rick130 BLKnight to name but a few....

btw im just a bum chippy that surfs

Serg

I don't look at pirate, all this is far out of what I want to achieve, see airbags http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-t...ra-cab-30.html

I just don't get the fact that those who have dislocating coils, are more than happy, yet you haven't personally tried them, I mean I've read a heap of times that cooper tyres are the best, but I'm hardly running out to buy them on that advice

Funny though, one of the Rangies I wrecked quite a few years ago, was a neighbour of Bills and used to drive with him, he also helped alot with his suspension, massive travel rear shocks, inboard with a box in the floor to house them and ............disclocating coils

BTW, I'm just a bum sparky who drinks

Originally Posted by rovercare

I don't look at pirate, all this is far out of what I want to achieve, see airbags http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-t...ra-cab-30.html

I just don't get the fact that those who have dislocating coils, are more than happy, yet you haven't personally tried them, I mean I've read a heap of times that cooper tyres are the best, but I'm hardly running out to buy them on that advice

Funny though, one of the Rangies I wrecked quite a few years ago, was a neighbour of Bills and used to drive with him, he also helped alot with his suspension, massive travel rear shocks, inboard with a box in the floor to house them and ............disclocating coils

BTW, I'm just a bum sparky who drinks

well the hype behind cooper tyres may be finacially motivated ....and remember when it comes to humans we like to feel good about decisions we make based on many levels....those that are happy with dislocating etc are they basing it on gut feeling and how good their truck looks with 3 feet of air between the tyre and arch or is it actually based on performance...

when guys that know their stuff are out there trying a range of combinations under smilar or same terrain and looking/tuning/analiysing purley based on performance without and end result already in mind.....and clearly explain their findings, I litsern

as humans we do plenty of things as a group mentality based on so called best or better practice....when it really isnt Im sure i'm guilty of this on more than one occasion

Plus my spellinga and grammer sucks

But if your dislocating cones and unretaind springs are working for you and you have fun in your LR/TOY/NISSAN/JEEP then all is good

Dannie.. I think really it comes down to what you are going to use the vehicle for.. If you want to build it for events where you have slow winch type stages as well as a little bit of high speed.. then I probably wouldnt go with dislocation. I also probably wouldnt go with the softest springs you could get you hands on either. You need to have some firmer springs to get some traction happening. Realistically, the only way these days to try and get the best of both worlds is to go coil over which can run a softer "retaining" spring. The gigglepin long arm kit looks the goods too (just need to try and balance that with front end flex).. Do you remember the 100" that was at west oz?? That had some of the longest arms I have seen in a long time. Would have loved to of seen that 4b flex.

Well as a comparison to max's pics, heres some of mine, its definitely lost a LITTLE in the front but that doesnt bother me, and no i havnt done a thing to the front at all yet. Just havnt got around to it as i destroyed a couple of motors in the meantime. And yes i can see the point about the link geometry in the rear but i am hoping to do something about that....

In my opinion i DO think there is usable flex past the point where the spring dislocates from real world driving without considering the geometry behind it. If i was to go longer softer springs i would risk coil bind at full compression and probobly gain way to much lift. This setup works well.

Retained.




Dislocation.




and a video in some fairly serious "Wombat holes" - they start at the 1:30sec mark
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6x_PTX_tHU&feature=channel"]YouTube- medowie2[/nomedia]

And another - on this little section normally without dislocation i would lift a wheel at the bottom and loose forward momentum taking this line. It doesnt look like much but its enough to drop the spring out.... trust me i know, ive seen to many rangies loose springs on this one
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R0GFJXOFtU"]YouTube- My county in the wallaroo quarry.[/nomedia]


BTW im not here to argue,,.. you have your opinions i have mine, just dont try pushing them on to me and we are all good. Perhaps we can let everyone else form there own too.

Originally Posted by rovercare

I just don't get the fact that those who have dislocating coils, are more than happy, yet you haven't personally tried them, I mean I've read a heap of times that cooper tyres are the best, but I'm hardly running out to buy them on that advice

There are no end of happy snake oil owners out there. Pick your product, doesn't matter, you'll find people who are deliriously happy with things that don't work.
I've come across bike owners with siezed suspension forks who think they're brilliant and work great.

As I've already said, articulation and traction are not the same thing. Just because your wheels are on the ground, doesn't mean they're doing anything.
But some people just can't see past the great increase in articulation. It's the same mentality with ricers who just want the biggest wheels and be damned with the missing performance.

What are my plans? Well I'm trying to find a nice 92-94 rangie with the air suspension still intact.

Originally Posted by Slunnie

The X thingy isn't an ideal solution, but its as close to duplicating the action of a coilover suspension setup as you will get with a regular coil suspension setup.

It's nothing like a coilover.
Coilovers use stacked springs to get a spring curve which transitions smoothly from a softer rate to a stiffer one. Basically long and customisable spring progression.

The X thing is just a second spring to push your old one back onto it's seat. They're saying 500lb force when seated and 10 inches of suspension. That works out to 50lb/in spring rate on the internal springs which has a step transition to the 200+ lb/in of your main springs.

Looking at Cal415's videos it looks like the unretained does pretty well

Watching it - to me it looks like the unretained rear can increase traction - on the front wheels.

As the rear axle been unretained essentially gets rid of the rear axle weight that wants to lift the front wheels, thus more traction ??