EV general discussion

[austastar]

Hi,
I just wish the EV makers (and ICE too I guess) would design practical vehicles, instead of expensively finished fragile shiny dreams that are a nightmare to maintain. I mean who would ever think of replacing a steel bumper bar with a low hanging expensive plastic shroud?
Cheers

[V8Ian]

Hi,
I just wish the EV makers (and ICE too I guess) would design practical vehicles, instead of expensively finished fragile shiny dreams that are a nightmare to maintain. I mean who would ever think of replacing a steel bumper bar with a low hanging expensive plastic shroud?
Cheers
Or a body that has to be removed for anything more intricate than a coolant top up. [bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

Or a body that has to be removed for anything more intricate than a coolant top up. [bigwhistle]

If they threw a hinge on the front it would just be a Cab over [emoji41]

[prelude]

ALL those anti EV propaganda articles are paid for by big oil / Koch brothers etc . People can believe what they want, theres aways extremism on both sides on an argument, don't listen, don't care, it dosent bother me at all. Just do what's right for you.

I am certainly not ANTI electric, I was fairly far along with designing my own electric vehicle based on an old mercedes S class, pre lithium batteries and fancy motors around the start of the millenium. I loved the instant torque, no shifting as james may would call it "wafting" along, but in the end I decided against it for various reasons. Around that time, way before there was commercially available LED lighting I did my whole house with self made LED's and what not, I came back from that to halogen for the 100 CRI, no flickering and no crap on the power grid due to all the switching. I tried, I did not like it. But certainly do what works for you mate, when and if I am around I would certainly love to take a ride in you electric series!

What I would like to say though, don't be fooled indeed. The green corner is just as big if not overtaking the oil corner in size with their own agenda and propaganda so I would not let my guard down reading pro articles either. :) It's still business and they will buy their way to profit like any other.

Cheers,
-P

[NavyDiver]

News that most of the thousands of MG ev or hybrids that landed in QLD last week have been sold to police or other fleet buyers might be Bah Humbug?


"Inside Tesla's $4.2 Billion Model 3 Sale To Hertz

"

That seems to be a LOT of new EVs? I did a USD$ count and assumed a cost based on the rumored "100,000 units" [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] EDIT- this was 2021 news I missed!

[NavyDiver]

Porche will be upset? 7:35.579 lap
Nürburgring has been a fighting ground for Tesla and Porsche over the last few years.

8 seconds is a bit of a jump[bigwhistle]

PS I do not love tesla[bigrolf]

Tesla reclaims Nurburgring lap record with new Model S Plaid with Track package | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/06/03/tesla-reclaims-nurburgring-lap-record-new-model-s-plaid-track-package/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20Tesla%20brought%20its%20th en%20brand-new%20production,beat%20Porsche%E2%80%99s%20record %20with%20an%20impressive%207%3A35.579%20lap.)

[Narangga]

Further investigations have proved that information is incorrect. One vessel in Darwin went from Japan to Freo to Darwin. The next vessel is Korea to Freo to Darwin next week. Singapore must be old news.

Can you end up down a rabbit hole searching the internet for shipping schedules? [bigsad]

However my research makes me think/believe/hope our Niro will be arriving on a vessel in Darwin on 30 June :woot: (says he also crossing fingers...).

[BradC]

Another interesting viewpoint : ROWAN ATKINSON: Our honeymoon with electric vehicles is over so hang on to your old petrol motor | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12171473/ROWAN-ATKINSON-honeymoon-electric-vehicles-hang-old-petrol-motor.html)

[vnx205]

Porche will be upset? 7:35.579 lap
Nürburgring has been a fighting ground for Tesla and Porsche over the last few years.

8 seconds is a bit of a jump[bigwhistle]

PS I do not love tesla[bigrolf]

Tesla reclaims Nurburgring lap record with new Model S Plaid with Track package | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/06/03/tesla-reclaims-nurburgring-lap-record-new-model-s-plaid-track-package/#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20Tesla%20brought%20its%20th en%20brand-new%20production,beat%20Porsche%E2%80%99s%20record %20with%20an%20impressive%207%3A35.579%20lap.)

The way things are going, the day may come when boy racers will be driving EVs and drivers who don't need to beat everyone else away from the traffic lights will drive something more sedate, powered by green hydrogen or synthetic fuel? :)

[prelude]

The way things are going, the day may come when boy racers will be driving EVs and drivers who don't need to beat everyone else away from the traffic lights will drive something more sedate, powered by green hydrogen or synthetic fuel? :)

Funny that [bigrolf] I was never really a boy racer but when I was younger I did want lower suspension and lower profile tyres (see my name, yes its the car). It was a fun hobby to go the herefore mentioned ring, before it was hip due to top gear and all. Ordering a trip in the ring taxi and then have some blond girl show up was hilarious, until you got to the first corner... Everything told you BRAKE! and she was like, no no, this is a full throttle corner. Of course she left us too soon.

Having said that; as I got older larger wheels and higher lifts became my thing with the 4bee and in stead of a 4 banger I went for the slow burble of the V8. What I never got however was why the EV crowd wanted the speed thing? I know speed was always a selling point on cars, certainly on top gear and what not :) but EV's are not even in the same ballpark so acceleration is a meaningless figure and compares apples to oranges in this case.

Finally, yes there will be a select few that manage to somehow get more power out of an electric vehicle but it is not as simple as porting and polishing a head, sticking a different exhaust under or things like that. The race is determined at the start by the vehicle you drive because modifying it is exceedingly more difficult.

-P

[NavyDiver]

Funny that [bigrolf] I was never really a boy racer but when I was younger I did want lower suspension and lower profile tyres (see my name, yes its the car). It was a fun hobby to go the herefore mentioned ring, before it was hip due to top gear and all. Ordering a trip in the ring taxi and then have some blond girl show up was hilarious, until you got to the first corner... Everything told you BRAKE! and she was like, no no, this is a full throttle corner. Of course she left us too soon.

Having said that; as I got older larger wheels and higher lifts became my thing with the 4bee and in stead of a 4 banger I went for the slow burble of the V8. What I never got however was why the EV crowd wanted the speed thing? I know speed was always a selling point on cars, certainly on top gear and what not :) but EV's are not even in the same ballpark so acceleration is a meaningless figure and compares apples to oranges in this case.

Finally, yes there will be a select few that manage to somehow get more power out of an electric vehicle but it is not as simple as porting and polishing a head, sticking a different exhaust under or things like that. The race is determined at the start by the vehicle you drive because modifying it is exceedingly more difficult.

-P

A person who brought a wize bang air filter- told me it went a bit nuts and suggested Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide levels and other levels made the air filter go BEEP when she cooked with gas.

other bites like "A new report (https://www.lung.org/clean-air/electric-vehicle-report/driving-to-clean-air) from the American Lung Association lays out the enormous health benefits of a nationwide shift to electric vehicles and clean energy. Alas, the potential payoff depends on the slim chance that lawmakers, automakers, and utilities can rise to the occasion to save tens of thousands of lives.
That optimistic scenario would cut enough pollution to prevent up to 89,300 premature deaths through 2050, the report finds. There would also be 2.2 million fewer asthma attacks over the same period of time. And since money talks, the health benefits add up to $978 billion and 10.7 million fewer lost workdays over the next few decades.
Those wonderful things only happen if the US sells only emissions-free passenger vehicles by 2035, even if some gas-guzzlers stay on the road. (The average person keeps a car for about 14 years or 200,000 miles.) By that date, the country’s electricity would also need to come from clean renewable energy instead of fossil fuels. Unfortunately, that might be a long shot, at least under current policies."


Might not impress people who love the burble of a V12[bigwhistle]

[spudfan]

Wonder where this will pan out? A fire.
Volkswagen ID. Buzz Reportedly Exploded, Caught Fire Days Later (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/volkswagen-id-buzz-reportedly-exploded-caught-fire-days-later/ar-AA1cfmdq?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=04b8c378f43d4e889241f491ca485d05&ei=40)

[V8Ian]

Maybe the emission cheating module had a meltdown.

[DiscoDB]

Another interesting viewpoint : ROWAN ATKINSON: Our honeymoon with electric vehicles is over so hang on to your old petrol motor | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12171473/ROWAN-ATKINSON-honeymoon-electric-vehicles-hang-old-petrol-motor.html)

I guess only appropriate to publish the counter arguments.

Fact check: why Rowan Atkinson is wrong about electric vehicles | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles)

[NavyDiver]

I guess only appropriate to publish the counter arguments.

Fact check: why Rowan Atkinson is wrong about electric vehicles | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/08/fact-check-why-rowan-atkinson-is-wrong-about-electric-vehicles)

Links in The Counter argument could fit in my Green washing thread for a few bits! One suggested all the deserts in China are empty wasted space so millions of sq Kilometers "could be" solar!

Yes in theory- No way in the world will that occur! Its a bit like suggesting solar panels over the entire Simpson Desert[biggrin] None of us think its wasted space in my book.

The author did bring up many interesting aspects just a few very very wobbly WE Could -but never ever will statements of waffle. Reality V 'wishes' is clearly not fact checked by some writers or loud commentators. Energy density, Infrastructure and so many more require science and planning not dreams I think.

The author missed the fact China is building about 10 Nuclear power plants every year for the next ......... That is energy density on a very small land foot print [thumbsupbig]

[PhilipA]

A person who brought a wize bang air filter- told me it went a bit nuts and suggested Carbon Monoxide and Carbon Dioxide levels and other levels made the air filter go BEEP when she cooked with gas.
Too cheap to use the range hood then.(or maybe have a chimney on their rangehood)
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoDB]

One country with large empty deserts which is making significant inroads to transitioning to renewable energy is Chile.

How Chile is becoming a leader in renewable energy | World Economic Forum (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/how-chile-is-becoming-a-leader-in-renewable-energy/)

Wind and solar overtake coal in Chile | Ember (https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/wind-and-solar-overtake-coal-in-chile/)

[NavyDiver]

Too cheap to use the range hood then.(or maybe have a chimney on their rangehood)
Regards PhilipA

She has a range hood Phillip. I thought the same honestly. I have A Carbon Monoxide testing device - I used it to check our old/prior gas ducted heater every year after chatting with a Gas pluming mate about testing heaters and having another even older gas heater fail due to rust in the flu part of it.

It doesn't show much difference here when we use the one gas burner I have on our Induction Cooktop. We did get out of gas heating due to a family member who had asthma as a child.

Back to cars and EVs as thats off topic really [thumbsupbig]

A news list of prices and EVs in Australia. I note the MG4 is not on it so its not perfect as they are inbound now.

"Polestar 2 Long Range Single Motor: $68,400" just might tick a box if the Uranium price keeps going Nuclear for me. That said due to a extra two fast charging sites on the main drive I do often the quirky PITA short range MG ev might stay till a better option comes along.

On a bright note for NON ev types. Notice the diesel fuel price about 20 cents under the ULP price. It was an annoying time when Diesel prices were flipped and costing more than ULP! Still very happy I am not adding a few hundred dollar of Diesel every week or two! At a lot less than 1/3 the cost for running the MG ev on electricity still makes me smile. The last load before I handed the Disco over to a new home was $151.14 for 84 litres [tonguewink]

The new list[thumbsupbig]

Every New Electric Vehicle in Australia, From Cheapest to Most Expensive (https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2023/06/electric-vehicle-australia-evs/)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Our Model Y is here. Two weeks in... it's a great bit of gear. On the highway seems to do about 130wh/k. Around town more like 120wh/k which is well under the 160wh/k that they have on the sticker. :D

It's well built and drives super well. I've got nothing to complain about at this point. [biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

Our Model Y is here. Two weeks in... it's a great bit of gear. On the highway seems to do about 130wh/k. Around town more like 120wh/k which is well under the 160wh/k that they have on the sticker. [emoji3]

It's well built and drives super well. I've got nothing to complain about at this point. [biggrin]

Always thought it makes more sense to talk actual consumption and not estimated range to empty. It’s how we compare fuel economy with ICE vehicles.

12-13 kWh/100km sounds very efficient.

[TonyC]

Always thought it makes more sense to talk actual consumption and not estimated range to empty. It’s how we compare fuel economy with ICE vehicles.

12-13 kWh/100km sounds very efficient.

And my Defender does approx 110kWh/100km
And has approx 1600kWh of fuel on board.

Accounting for the woeful energy convertion of an ICE engine thats about 33kWh/100km just to push it along.

Based on 10kWh per litre.

Not trying to prove anything, just find it interesting to put things in the same units.

Tony

[DiscoDB]

And my Defender does approx 110kWh/100km
And has approx 1600kWh of fuel on board.

Accounting for the woeful energy convertion of an ICE engine thats about 33kWh/100km just to push it along.

Based on 10kWh per litre.

Not trying to prove anything, just find it interesting to put things in the same units.

Tony

[emoji23]

Yeah nah - never got into the kWh to litres conversions. Never saw the point of this.

Next someone will try to calculate how many kgs of coal is needed per 100km. D’oh!

Edit: ok so I did calculate it - 12 kWh/100km is ~6kg coal per 100km. Noice one!

[Tombie]

[emoji23]

Yeah nah - never got into the kWh to litres conversions. Never saw the point of this.

Next someone will try to calculate how many kgs of coal is needed per 100km. D’oh!

Edit: ok so I did calculate it - 12 kWh/100km is ~6kg coal per 100km. Noice one!

Did you factor in transmission losses [emoji23]

[DiscoDB]

Did you factor in transmission losses [emoji23]

Heh heh - assumed fully offset by the amount of renewables being fed into the grid. [emoji849]

[TonyC]

[emoji23]

Next someone will try to calculate how many kgs of coal is needed per 100km. D’oh!

Edit: ok so I did calculate it - 12 kWh/100km is ~6kg coal per 100km. Noice one!

Suddenly, the Tesla towing its trailer full of coal, seems less modern 😜

[prelude]

One country with large empty deserts which is making significant inroads to transitioning to renewable energy is Chile.

How Chile is becoming a leader in renewable energy | World Economic Forum (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/how-chile-is-becoming-a-leader-in-renewable-energy/)

Wind and solar overtake coal in Chile | Ember (https://ember-climate.org/insights/research/wind-and-solar-overtake-coal-in-chile/)

Ouch, how a thread that used to live in general chat which in my opinion was fine got merged with this I will never know but man... When I see "fact check" and "the guardian" in one link and "world economic forum" in the other, which are both contradictions in terms, we have certainly drifted :)

-P

[DiscoDB]

Ouch, how a thread that used to live in general chat which in my opinion was fine got merged with this I will never know but man... When I see "fact check" and "the guardian" in one link and "world economic forum" in the other, which are both contradictions in terms, we have certainly drifted [emoji4]

-P

Even funnier than that - it was the Guardian fact checking a story in the Daily Mail. [emoji23]

But what Chile is doing with renewables is a true story. Very impressive for a country with a lower GDP per capita than Australia.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Always thought it makes more sense to talk actual consumption and not estimated range to empty. It’s how we compare fuel economy with ICE vehicles.

12-13 kWh/100km sounds very efficient.
I spoke with a polestar RWD owner this morning. He's more in the 16-18 category. Said at 110 he can see more like 21. Haven't tried the tesla at that speed for far enough to know yet. [bighmmm]

[NavyDiver]

Noted non Mr Musk lover! Ready this and thought wow "One of the engineers stated that he was "blown away" by how Tesla was "struggling so much with the basics". According to Wired (https://www.wired.com/story/a-leaked-tesla-report-shows-the-cybertruck-had-basic-design-flaws/), the report suggests that the Cybertruck's unusual design resulted in it being hard to fully seal. This in turn resulted in an abundance of noise and leaking issues.The report also claimed that the Cybertruck handled very poorly with lots of body roll, steering issues, and “structural shake". Even worse was braking. Engineers were targeting a braking score of seven, per the Society of Automotive Engineers scoring system. That score would be considered "fair". What did the pre-production Cybertruck achieve in reality? A four, making it somewhat dangerous for public roads.
That said, a lot of work has presumably been done in the past 18 months. After all, Tesla CEO Elon Musk seems very confident about a Q3 launch for the first Cybertruck release candidates. Mass Cybertruck production is scheduled to begin in 2024, with Tesla targeting an output of 375,000 units per year."

whole yarn here! (https://insideevs.com/news/671443/leaked-report-alpha-tesla-cybertruck-design-flaws/)

[JDNSW]

See also Leaked Tesla report shows Cybertruck had basic design flaws | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/leaked-tesla-report-shows-cybertruck-had-basic-design-flaws/)

One point noted in this article is that the basic design is likely to be difficult/impossible to make comply with pedestrian safety rules in some places. Probably including both Europe and Australia.

[NavyDiver]

"Production of the electric Explorer starts this year, followed in mid-2024 by a second MEB-based EV dubbed a "sports crossover."Ford today opened its Cologne Electric Vehicle Center in Germany, which will become its EV production hub in Europe.
After a $2 billion investment – Ford's largest to date at the plant that was first founded in 1930 – the historic site in Niehl, Cologne has been transformed into a modern electric vehicle manufacturing plant."

It doesn't suggest towing or off road capacity Ford Explorer EV Is A VW MEB-Based SUV For Europe Priced From $48,500 (https://insideevs.com/news/658251/ford-explorer-ev-is-a-vw-meb-based-suv-for-europe-priced-from-48500-usd/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywM3T4rkcyc

[NavyDiver]

FORD is so yesterday [thumbsupbig] today is a promise perhaps maybe? "Under pressure from critics and investors alike, the Japanese carmaker appears to step up its electrification game.

T
oyota has been under constant fire from environmentalists and shareholders in the previous 12 months because of its feet-dragging approach to the electrification of its lineup. But now it’s fighting back with an ambitious plan that envisions EVs with over 600 miles (965 kilometers) of range from 2026 and around 900 miles (1,448 km) on a single charge after 2028." Link (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/toyota-s-newly-revealed-ev-plans-include-900-mile-batteries/ar-AA1ctFeS?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=3deb69415b6d48f0a34c068de74f0a0c&ei=9)

I suspected Toyota has a solid-state battery. It seems it is 2 years behind Quantumscape (2025) "The Japanese car group’s newly revealed plans mention that the first of the next-generation EV will debut in 2026 (https://www.motor1.com/news/661218/toyota-next-gen-ev-double-range/) as a Lexus (https://insideevs.com/lexus/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed), using a next-gen lithium-ion battery that offers over 600 miles of driving range on a single charge, as reported by Automotive News.The next step, slated for 2026-2027, involves a bipolar lithium iron phosphate battery that can reduce costs by 40 percent compared to the previous iteration, while an advanced bipolar lithium iron battery with 10 percent more range is scheduled to go into production in 2027-2028.
With this technology, Toyota (https://insideevs.com/toyota/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) estimates it will churn out around 1.7 million EVs based on the newly developed, purpose-built architecture by 2030, which will benefit from solid-state batteries starting in 2027."

It was always a race. Longer term winners are still a bit tricky to pick! Toyota battery always seem to me via Panasonic?? Who has the patents and who infringes on others patents will be interesting to watch perhaps?

EDIT "(Reuters) - CharIN, the industry body promoting the Combined Charging System (CCS) standard to power electric vehicles, said on Monday Tesla's charging model is not a standard yet and does not provide an open charging ecosystem for the industry.U.S. automakers General Motors and Ford said they will adopt Tesla's model of charging cars with their vehicles having North American Charging Standard (NACS) ports, starting 2025.
CharIN said it will convene a task force with the goal of submitting NACS, which was formerly Tesla's propriety, to the standardization process."

Its tough to see how EU and others accept Tesla do it my way???? Just my thoughts !

[Homestar]

Re Tesla - I think it will be interesting to see what happens here as the global OEM's bring platforms on line. They haven't released a new model in years and I personally don't rate them as a very good car overall. Don't get me wrong, the tech and driveline are amazing and the Model Y put a smile on my dial but the build quality is lacking big time and I was very surprised when I test drove one how much this showed. The body fit and finish reminds me of Hyundai back when they first came out. The ride quality is also appalling for a car - almost as bad as my Hilux and the old grotty roads around Richmond really showed up how bad the suspension is. I don't think the 19" wheels with almost no rubber wrapped around them helped at all but it wasn't something I would have as a daily driver. I would accept this on a cheaper car, but not on something that cost so much. I think they will eventually be swamped - but that's some years away I think as they have the strongest foothold and sales of EV's at the moment.

[NavyDiver]

"Telo is a new American EV company (https://www.telotrucks.com/) setting out to build a small, modular, electric truck in a country filled with monolithic workhorses like Ford’s F-150 pickup. But even though Telo’s truck will be mini and cute, it’s still apparently work-capable — the company claims it’s got “Toyota Tacoma capability,” but in the footprint of a Mini Cooper. That’s just about 152 inches."

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1cuahb.img?w=534&h=356&m=6 [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]
May be could be or not of course[thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

"Agratas is an Indian company that was recently founded by JLR's parent company Tata Group.JLR, the company that used to be known as Jaguar Land Rover, has announced details about its battery sourcing strategy for next-generation models.
The automaker told investors on June 12 that its future EVs will offer a driving range of up to 450 miles thanks to battery cells sourced from Indian company Agratas Energy Storage Solutions. JLR and recently founded Agratas are both owned by India's industrial conglomerate Tata Group.
Agratas, which is reportedly looking at both the UK and Spain as a location to build a cell plant in Europe, is expected to initially manufacture the batteries at a facility it is currently setting up ain Gujarat, India. The factory is expected to have an initial capacity of 20 Gigawatt-hours, which could double in the second phase of expansion.
The Indian company will be responsible for the cell design and manufacturing, while JLR will oversee the design and production of the cell pack.
According to Autocar, JLR said at the company's investor day event in London that batteries from Agratas would have a much higher energy density than those in its only EV, the Jaguar I-Pace (https://insideevs.com/news/630505/2024-jaguar-i-pace-gains-subtle-cosmetic-tweaks-retains-powertrain/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed).

JLR head of product engineering, Thomas Müller, said the new batteries would give 120 kilowatt-hours from 342 liters of cell capacity, compared with 84 kWh from 387 liters in the I-Pace's battery pack."

The good- its coming, the bad. Not at all certain better than the I-pace battery is as far as I had hoped for?

Claims seem a bit thin on data "JLR leverages Tata Group synergies, selects Agratas as battery partner for 720km range EVsTata Group-owned Agratas is to supply battery packs of up to 120kWh capacity for future Jaguar and Land Rover electric cars"

Which ones might go 720km?? I hope its a tow capable 4wd Disco beast replacement of course[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Which ones might go 720km?? I hope its a tow capable 4wd Disco beast replacement of course[bigrolf]

So with real life driving,it may do say,600KM?
Then a bit for reserve,back to 550KM?

Then big tyres,a bit of weight,a few mods,down to 500?

Some off road work,less again.

Then hook up the van,maybe 250Km?

And only if the battery is brand new....

Umm,nah,yes,no.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Re Tesla - I think it will be interesting to see what happens here as the global OEM's bring platforms on line. They haven't released a new model in years and I personally don't rate them as a very good car overall. Don't get me wrong, the tech and driveline are amazing and the Model Y put a smile on my dial but the build quality is lacking big time and I was very surprised when I test drove one how much this showed. The body fit and finish reminds me of Hyundai back when they first came out. The ride quality is also appalling for a car - almost as bad as my Hilux and the old grotty roads around Richmond really showed up how bad the suspension is. I don't think the 19" wheels with almost no rubber wrapped around them helped at all but it wasn't something I would have as a daily driver. I would accept this on a cheaper car, but not on something that cost so much. I think they will eventually be swamped - but that's some years away I think as they have the strongest foothold and sales of EV's at the moment.

I picked up a MY a couple of weeks ago. I'm good a picking quality. It's well made, as good as anything mass produced. The paint is glossy well done. Even in the door jams. The panel gaps are pretty good. Like maybe the doors are slightly different but it's like picking MM here and there. I've seen far far worse.

As to the suspension, the original tune copped a lot of criticism. Mine was built march and has the "comfort suspension". IMHO it's an ideal compromise. It's really quite compliant.. yet still pretty sporty. I drove a Ioniq 5 recently and I prefer the MY tune.

Tesla China quietly updates Model Y suspension for more comfort, stability (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-quietly-updates-model-y-suspension-details/)

[NavyDiver]

I picked up a MY a couple of weeks ago. I'm good a picking quality. It's well made, as good as anything mass produced. The paint is glossy well done. Even in the door jams. The panel gaps are pretty good. Like maybe the doors are slightly different but it's like picking MM here and there. I've seen far far worse.

As to the suspension, the original tune copped a lot of criticism. Mine was built march and has the "comfort suspension". IMHO it's an ideal compromise. It's really quite compliant.. yet still pretty sporty. I drove a Ioniq 5 recently and I prefer the MY tune.

Tesla China quietly updates Model Y suspension for more comfort, stability (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-quietly-updates-model-y-suspension-details/)

Agree- I am not a Musk fan and agree the aging is a point yet not seeing some of the other issues in my better half's Mod 3[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

I think Navy was onto this a while back,more info.

Battery breakthrough offers 1,500 kilometres of range, Toyota says | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/battery-range-electric-vehicle-toyota-b2357354.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3N7W3uCWM6h619OMYvPEjxb4gWEXtM2QF5xIvrw KwD1_BTm5Lns9i4vUQ#Echobox=1686837567)

[Homestar]

I picked up a MY a couple of weeks ago. I'm good a picking quality. It's well made, as good as anything mass produced. The paint is glossy well done. Even in the door jams. The panel gaps are pretty good. Like maybe the doors are slightly different but it's like picking MM here and there. I've seen far far worse.

As to the suspension, the original tune copped a lot of criticism. Mine was built march and has the "comfort suspension". IMHO it's an ideal compromise. It's really quite compliant.. yet still pretty sporty. I drove a Ioniq 5 recently and I prefer the MY tune.

Tesla China quietly updates Model Y suspension for more comfort, stability (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-china-quietly-updates-model-y-suspension-details/)

They should be using one of these as their demo vehicles then because what I drove made me run a mile. It says something about 'Murican manufacturing quality when the Chinese built units are far superior... [biggrin]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

They should be using one of these as their demo vehicles then because what I drove made me run a mile. It says something about 'Murican manufacturing quality when the Chinese built units are far superior... [biggrin]
Yeah.. it's one of those things.. The cars get out there.. people whinge.. more people whinge.. the factory says "ok we better do something".. they get someone to cook a fix.. and by the time the parts actually get through and put on a car.. six months is really pretty fast. Given the shipping issues no car in Aus would have had this before probably late Feb. I'll admit the car we drove on the test drive seemed ok, but then they pretty much tell you where you can drive. It's short and the roads are smooth and frankly you're pretty highly loaded with new stuff. Suspension is the kind of thing you have to drive around for a bit.

As to quality.. I'm in all the Tesla user groups. The common theme is "when will my car get here". "I've got a screw in my tyre". "How do I charge my car". It's refreshing to not see "my car is rubbish and keeps breaking". "This thing has failed like all the others".

It's early days yet but it's promising. I've had legacy cars that had already got off to a solid start at disassembling themselves by week three.

[NavyDiver]

Life cycle emissions looks clearly in favor and will get even better as mining sector gets cleaned up with small nuclear power and hydrogen.
"Electricity production is by far the most emission-intensive stage in a BEVs life cycle. Decarbonizing the electricity sector by implementing renewable and nuclear energy sources can significantly reduce these vehicles’ use phase emissions."

Power sector here in OZ is anti nuclear idiots still of course 😭😭😔Life Cycle Emissions: EVs vs. Combustion Engine Vehicles (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-evs-vs-combustion-engine-vehicles/)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Life cycle emissions looks clearly in favor and will get even better as mining sector gets cleaned up with small nuclear power and hydrogen.
"Electricity production is by far the most emission-intensive stage in a BEVs life cycle. Decarbonizing the electricity sector by implementing renewable and nuclear energy sources can significantly reduce these vehicles’ use phase emissions."

Power sector here in OZ is anti nuclear idiots still of course 😭😭😔Life Cycle Emissions: EVs vs. Combustion Engine Vehicles (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-evs-vs-combustion-engine-vehicles/)

The thing is - if you buy an EV now.. it's only going to get better environmentally as our grid decarbonises. If you buy an ICE engined vehicle - it's not going to change. It's going to keep burning fuel until it's scrapped.

It would appear to me that it's a polarising subject. There is a lot of things that people don't understand, and there is a lot of poor or downright misleading information being put out there. Also, EV's and charging infrastructure are making large leaps continually. IMHO if your current car doesn't need replacing - keep driving it. That's the best outcome. If it does need replacement and it's role can be done by an EV then have a solid look and see if one will meet your needs. If it works for you - get the EV.

After one month (tomorrow) of EV ownership - the family is stoked with our choice. It does everything we need and it's supremely comfortable. It's a great bit of gear and is really next level in so many ways. That's the pay off.. they are really comfortable and convenient cars.

The surprises have been how efficient it is. The sticker said 160 wh/k and the long term average is turning out to be less than 140. Drove from Yarraman to home (north side BNE) yesterday (168k) with an average of 114wh/100.

[Homestar]

While people say the charging infrastructure is going ahead, I don’t see this anywhere I go. I live in the 6th largest City in Victoria and we have 1 (broken) ev charger and no plans for any more according to Council, so if you live outside of Metro Melbourne you just seem to be **** out of luck. I’ve got better things to do with my time than plan where I need to go in the hope there’s a working ev charger when I get there.

It’s just too damn hard at the moment - I’m thinking another 10 years yet before there’s a decent network and that’s if there’s enough power to go around.

I work with an Electrical mob that install Tesla charging stations and they cost millions each for around 10 chargers as new switchboards, HV subs and miles of cabling are needed for each one. How long is this business model going to work for Tesla before they stop building them?

[Tombie]

The thing is - if you buy an EV now.. it's only going to get better environmentally as our grid decarbonises. If you buy an ICE engined vehicle - it's not going to change. It's going to keep burning fuel until it's scrapped.

It would appear to me that it's a polarising subject. There is a lot of things that people don't understand, and there is a lot of poor or downright misleading information being put out there. Also, EV's and charging infrastructure are making large leaps continually. IMHO if your current car doesn't need replacing - keep driving it. That's the best outcome. If it does need replacement and it's role can be done by an EV then have a solid look and see if one will meet your needs. If it works for you - get the EV.

After one month (tomorrow) of EV ownership - the family is stoked with our choice. It does everything we need and it's supremely comfortable. It's a great bit of gear and is really next level in so many ways. That's the pay off.. they are really comfortable and convenient cars.

The surprises have been how efficient it is. The sticker said 160 wh/k and the long term average is turning out to be less than 140. Drove from Yarraman to home (north side BNE) yesterday (168k) with an average of 114wh/100.

It’s Carbon shifting, not decarbonisation.

Agree that any vehicle that suits a users needs is a good car.
Benefit of EV ride over same size bodies is mass, they’re significantly heavier which improves comfort.

I did a quick back of envelope calculation the other day around increased mass on roads - which greatly contributes to wear and tear - and it’s significant. As EVs become dominant we will see increased road surface wear, and increased maintenance requirements.

Increased tyre consumption will be a side effect of heavier for size vehicles.

The emissions aren’t being reduced in any way by EVs with current tech.

[NavyDiver]

While people say the charging infrastructure is going ahead, I don’t see this anywhere I go. I live in the 6th largest City in Victoria and we have 1 (broken) ev charger and no plans for any more according to Council, so if you live outside of Metro Melbourne you just seem to be **** out of luck. I’ve got better things to do with my time than plan where I need to go in the hope there’s a working ev charger when I get there.

It’s just too damn hard at the moment - I’m thinking another 10 years yet before there’s a decent network and that’s if there’s enough power to go around.

I work with an Electrical mob that install Tesla charging stations and they cost millions each for around 10 chargers as new switchboards, HV subs and miles of cabling are needed for each one. How long is this business model going to work for Tesla before they stop building them?


Fully agree at one level. The roll out is slow. The Camperdown and Geelong CCS chargers in Western Vic are game changes for my short range quirky one. It was going to be sold about now. I am happy to wait for a MUCH better option now with my cheap ev[biggrin]

DID I say how much I hate TELSA chargers I have driven past for the last few years[bawl] Ford and GM deal with my nemesis may make Mr Musk devious plan work for Tesla share holder at last? In the US only of course. I am at work honestly. Proof attached185959 its 32 right now[biggrin]Riding a scooter tonight so NO beer in hand

[RANDLOVER]

It’s Carbon shifting, not decarbonisation.

Agree that any vehicle that suits a users needs is a good car.
Benefit of EV ride over same size bodies is mass, they’re significantly heavier which improves comfort.

I did a quick back of envelope calculation the other day around increased mass on roads - which greatly contributes to wear and tear - and it’s significant. As EVs become dominant we will see increased road surface wear, and increased maintenance requirements.

Increased tyre consumption will be a side effect of heavier for size vehicles.

The emissions aren’t being reduced in any way by EVs with current tech.

You don't have to worry about Ev's damaging the roads, the trucks are doing that already.

[JDNSW]

You don't have to worry about Ev's damaging the roads, the trucks are doing that already.

Yes. Light vehicles are responsible for an insignificant proportion of road damage compared to trucks, especially on major roads. (There may be some increase on roads that rarely see trucks, but have a lot of cars, such as some suburban "rat runs", but these would be pretty rare.

The reason for this is that damage to roads is proportional to axle load - and axle load of trucks is way higher than the axle load of even the heaviest EVs. Even worse, damage is probably more closely proportional to the square of axle load.

[Homestar]

You don't have to worry about Ev's damaging the roads, the trucks are doing that already.

Yeah, but trucks pay a LOT in rego for the privilege of doing this - ours at work are just over $10K a year each to register. Maybe EV rego should go up in line with this? [bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

As mentioned trucks do add a lot of wear and are charged accordingly.

However, on suburban roads, where damage is obvious, it’s a product of cars. Rarely is a HV seen in these areas.

Any increase in mass will add to degradation, it has to. So increasing the average weight of ALL road going vehicles does has a compounding effect.

To claim otherwise and blame trucks as the sole cause is nonsense.



In all this current nonsense, the only winner is the car manufacturers.

No emissions are reduced - simply relocated.

Price exceeds equivalent fuel burn cost for average life of vehicle. Payback on an EV for my mother vs a petrol version exceeds her predicted life expectancy!

And the most significant impact - take a look at where some of the materials for your “clean” batteries come from and the human cost. If it wasn’t mined in such a perverse manner of rights abuse and payment - nobody could afford to buy one.

Nope - these EVs in their current form are an absolute disaster. Meeting a trend in the West whilst only fixing localised problems at the detriment of greater issues.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It’s Carbon shifting, not decarbonisation.

Agree that any vehicle that suits a users needs is a good car.
Benefit of EV ride over same size bodies is mass, they’re significantly heavier which improves comfort.

I did a quick back of envelope calculation the other day around increased mass on roads - which greatly contributes to wear and tear - and it’s significant. As EVs become dominant we will see increased road surface wear, and increased maintenance requirements.

Increased tyre consumption will be a side effect of heavier for size vehicles.

The emissions aren’t being reduced in any way by EVs with current tech.
Disagree. It will result in lower carbon emissions over time. Even now it's less - and it will continue to get less. And lets not forget better air in our cities benefits everyone.

As to the weight - yes EV's are heavy and have big tyres. But to calculate how this will affect road wear you have to know what cars people are swapping for them. I've no idea how you know that because I've never seen it anywhere. My EV is 1900kg. Probably the closest equivalent I can see in size and luxury is something like a fairmont Ghia and it was 1750kg. But when the tank was full it was probably closer to 1850. Yes heavier but not greatly. A BMW X5 which might be considered similar in one of the lighter variants is around 200kg more..

Proabably a more realistic comparison is if a two raptor family swaps one of their raptors for an EV to use around town. They are nearly 2500kg so an EV is a lot lighter.

It's hard to say as we haven't seen a lot of entrants in this segment yet, but in small cars it's looking like initially it will be about a 300kg difference. Less of course a tank of fuel.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

As mentioned trucks do add a lot of wear and are charged accordingly.

However, on suburban roads, where damage is obvious, it’s a product of cars. Rarely is a HV seen in these areas.

Any increase in mass will add to degradation, it has to. So increasing the average weight of ALL road going vehicles does has a compounding effect.

To claim otherwise and blame trucks as the sole cause is nonsense.



In all this current nonsense, the only winner is the car manufacturers.

No emissions are reduced - simply relocated.

Price exceeds equivalent fuel burn cost for average life of vehicle. Payback on an EV for my mother vs a petrol version exceeds her predicted life expectancy!

And the most significant impact - take a look at where some of the materials for your “clean” batteries come from and the human cost. If it wasn’t mined in such a perverse manner of rights abuse and payment - nobody could afford to buy one.

Nope - these EVs in their current form are an absolute disaster. Meeting a trend in the West whilst only fixing localised problems at the detriment of greater issues.

Emissions are reduced. Sorry! It's been debunked so many times.

I think where people go off track is because so many people say EV's are zero emission. That's rubbish. Less emissions than an equivalent car yes. Emissions that will continue to drop over the life of the car - yes. Zero emission not so much. Every car trip comes with a consequence. If you want a zero consequence car trip ride your bike! Australians seem less than keen on that for the most part.

And yes the car makers always win. That's how it is. When I were a lad in the 70's people walked and rode to school. If mum had a car it was a Lazer or something like that. Now mum drives a prado or a raptor. The car makers always win.

Personally I'm more concerned about the Jevons Paradox playing out. That should be what you're worried about. People choosing to make more and longer car trips due to perceived economy.

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox)

[Arch]

In all this current nonsense, the only winner is the car manufacturers.

No emissions are reduced - simply relocated.



100% agree with the first statement - the mindset is we will consume our way out of this climate crisis one new product at a time. Consumption is our greatest challenge.

Second statement - depends on where you live and if you're using a home PV etc. Still though... we need to address consumption. New EVs are a distraction.

Best we all convert our old cars when the cranks break.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

While people say the charging infrastructure is going ahead, I don’t see this anywhere I go. I live in the 6th largest City in Victoria and we have 1 (broken) ev charger and no plans for any more according to Council, so if you live outside of Metro Melbourne you just seem to be **** out of luck. I’ve got better things to do with my time than plan where I need to go in the hope there’s a working ev charger when I get there.

It’s just too damn hard at the moment - I’m thinking another 10 years yet before there’s a decent network and that’s if there’s enough power to go around.

I work with an Electrical mob that install Tesla charging stations and they cost millions each for around 10 chargers as new switchboards, HV subs and miles of cabling are needed for each one. How long is this business model going to work for Tesla before they stop building them?

I bet you'd be horrified to know how many millions it would cost to put in a petrol station. I reckon Tesla make more money on each charge too.

Agreed big city charging is absolute rubbish. North of the river in Brisbane there are less than half a dozen public fast chargers. The only explanation I've got is that the majority of people buying EV's at this point are charging at home.

Having said that the highway charging situation is improving rapidly. From Brisbane into the nearby surrounds any longer road trip was difficult/slow only a couple of years back. Now there is a fast charger in most small/medium towns. The Queensland Electric Superhighway runs from Brisbane to Cairns, and it's now extending inland quite a bit too.

[ramblingboy42]

Well I have to ask why there are so many new servos being built.

I don't know about other areas but here in SE Qld there are new servos being built in just about every new development.....and no , new developments dont need them , they are only several km from an existing servo.

These servos are all owned by millionaires with foreign names and shelf companies and they are now more of a general store/cafe than a petrol station.

I wonder if perhaps EV charging stations can't price gouge like servos do and so are unpopular with the investors. I'm sure if it was profitable , we'd see them popping up.....but I guarantee I will never use one.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I did some driving in our EV on the weekend to support a bike ride I was doing. It could equally have been done in the defender - and if we didn't have the EV it probably would have been.

Distance was 440k. Let's do the math.

EV
440k * 130 wh per KM gives 58 kwh to do the trip. The national grid is at 900g of CO2 per kwh. That's a total of 52kg of CO2.

Defender.
440k @ 12l/100 = 52.8 Litres. Each litre of diesel generates 2.640kg of Co2. That's a total of 139.392 kg of Co2.. or round it up to 140. So nearly 2 times more co2.

Both methods are just calculating on the actual CO2 implication of the fuel. IE making a KWH by coal/renewable. Or in the Diesel's case, burning the stuff in an engine.

Neither figure takes into account how the fuel got to the place where they were burned. I'm darn sure there is a lot more Co2 in exploration, extraction, transport and refining of the Diesel than there is in digging the coal and dumping it in a pile at Swanbank. Yes there are inputs in the making of each car too that need to be considered as well as the path to the point of burning.

It's also worth noting that the EV is far from ZERO emission. But it is significantly lower. And if it ten years the grid is at 450g per Co2 per kwh it will have gotten 50% less again. Whereas the defender is always tied to that ratio of 1l = 2640 G co2. EV's still have all the problems that normal cars do, but they are somewhat environmentally better.

So I think having an EV in the house is a really good option if it works for people.

[cjc_td5]

As mentioned trucks do add a lot of wear and are charged accordingly.

However, on suburban roads, where damage is obvious, it’s a product of cars. Rarely is a HV seen in these areas.

Any increase in mass will add to degradation, it has to. So increasing the average weight of ALL road going vehicles does has a compounding effect.

To claim otherwise and blame trucks as the sole cause is nonsense.



In all this current nonsense, the only winner is the car manufacturers.

No emissions are reduced - simply relocated.

Price exceeds equivalent fuel burn cost for average life of vehicle. Payback on an EV for my mother vs a petrol version exceeds her predicted life expectancy!

And the most significant impact - take a look at where some of the materials for your “clean” batteries come from and the human cost. If it wasn’t mined in such a perverse manner of rights abuse and payment - nobody could afford to buy one.

Nope - these EVs in their current form are an absolute disaster. Meeting a trend in the West whilst only fixing localised problems at the detriment of greater issues.I read an article a couple of months ago that tyre manufacturers were having to develop new tyre compounds to cope with heavier EVs. The amount of tyre wear loss to the environment was mind boggling...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I read an article a couple of months ago that tyre manufacturers were having to develop new tyre compounds to cope with heavier EVs. The amount of tyre wear loss to the environment was mind boggling...
I'm unclear... over 50% of the Australian new vehicle sales are SUV's. Many of which are significantly heavier. We don't seem to be concerned about tyre wear from them?

[cjc_td5]

I'm unclear... over 50% of the Australian new vehicle sales are SUV's. Many of which are significantly heavier. We don't seem to be concerned about tyre wear from them?I suppose most suvs use larger tyres which are already designed for those weights. The article was talking about more typical 13-15" small passenger car sizes, which are designed for lighter vehicle weights than now being encountered. EVs were getting sub 40-50,000 from these tyres due to excessive wear?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I suppose most suvs use larger tyres which are already designed for those weights. The article was talking about more typical 13-15" small passenger car sizes, which are designed for lighter vehicle weights than now being encountered. EVs were getting sub 40-50,000 from these tyres due to excessive wear?
The last passenger car I bought with a 14" tyre was 1992???

FTR the EV I bought has 245/45/19. The BMW x5 which is also a SUV. It has 275x45x20. A toyota camry hybrid has 235/45/18. Not a huge amount of difference.

I'm sad that we aren't buying small cars any more but the problem isn't EV's. And comparing them to small passenger cars from 30 years ago doesn't help because it's not what Australians are choosing to buy.

These Are Australia's Top 10 Best-Selling Cars in 2023 (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/top-10-best-selling-cars-australia-2023-vfacts-june)

[Homestar]

I bet you'd be horrified to know how many millions it would cost to put in a petrol station. I reckon Tesla make more money on each charge too.

Agreed big city charging is absolute rubbish. North of the river in Brisbane there are less than half a dozen public fast chargers. The only explanation I've got is that the majority of people buying EV's at this point are charging at home.

Having said that the highway charging situation is improving rapidly. From Brisbane into the nearby surrounds any longer road trip was difficult/slow only a couple of years back. Now there is a fast charger in most small/medium towns. The Queensland Electric Superhighway runs from Brisbane to Cairns, and it's now extending inland quite a bit too.

In case you didn’t know I live 1/2 hour North of Melbourne so getting to an EV charger in Qld is a little far and not relevant to me. Service stations are a whole different ball game as you don’t need to find mega watts of power in the area to run one - typically around 30KVA for a large servo compared to 1000KVA for a large super charger setup. Tesla don’t make any money on their chargers at the moment at least. They charge around $0.70 per KWh so at the Supercharger install I’m involved with at the moment they would need to sell 4,000,000KWh to recoup the install cost alone if they get the power for free so around 20 cars to 75% charge a day for 20 years to pay that back. Given the last one I had anything to do with has a current patronage of around 8 cars a week that’s a loooong payback. Not a business model I’d be chucking money at as we run on a payback of equipment an order of magnitude better than that to make money. It’s a cost Tesla have to bear in order to sell cars. Doesn’t add up IMO, but I’m happy you can drive yours around and think your saving the planet when only 7% of our emissions come from vehicles in the first place.

It’s all misplaced focus and the big polluters are very happy to keep it that way. I’ll keep driving a diesel vehicle knowing that it really does have **** all to do with the total emissions we produce in reality. Until other much bigger changes are made we’re ****ing in the wind with EV’s if you are only looking at one thing.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

In case you didn’t know I live 1/2 hour North of Melbourne so getting to an EV charger in Qld is a little far and not relevant to me. Service stations are a whole different ball game as you don’t need to find mega watts of power in the area to run one - typically around 30KVA for a large servo compared to 1000KVA for a large super charger setup. Tesla don’t make any money on their chargers at the moment at least. They charge around $0.70 per KWh so at the Supercharger install I’m involved with at the moment they would need to sell 4,000,000KWh to recoup the install cost alone if they get the power for free so around 20 cars to 75% charge a day for 20 years to pay that back. Given the last one I had anything to do with has a current patronage of around 8 cars a week that’s a loooong payback. Not a business model I’d be chucking money at as we run on a payback of equipment an order of magnitude better than that to make money. It’s a cost Tesla have to bear in order to sell cars. Doesn’t add up IMO, but I’m happy you can drive yours around and think your saving the planet when only 7% of our emissions come from vehicles in the first place.

It’s all misplaced focus and the big polluters are very happy to keep it that way. I’ll keep driving a diesel vehicle knowing that it really does have **** all to do with the total emissions we produce in reality. Until other much bigger changes are made we’re ****ing in the wind with EV’s if you are only looking at one thing.

I know this might shock you.. but what if I said they are **really** nice things to drive around in? Quiet and comfortable. Ample performance. I can't think of any car I could have got for the money with the same attributes.

I'm all up if you want to query my maths above too. I reckon they are spot on. About 1/3 the CO2 for the same trip as the defender. And 58kwh @ my home rate of .22 = $12. Or 53 litres of diesel at say 1.90 is about a Hundy.

Personally, I think warming up my defender for little trips to the shops and general errands is utter insanity. Most times it doesn't even get up to temperature. I know it causes oil dilution. The EV on the other hand is just perfect for that. So I just use my 4x4 for trips where we need that capability which keeps the K's off it as a bonus.

As to the economics of superchargers.. I don't really have strong feelings about them. If the other car companies want to build a charging network for their vehicles then that would be just grand. If the economics are really that dire then I hope Tesla keep the prime ones for Teslas only which seems to be their plan. It makes sense that they are opening up the low usage ones then. Sell more power. Get more utilisation. If a portion of each car price goes to the network then bravo to Tesla because no one else seems to even be able to make EV's and sell money let alone subsidise a charging network.

Toyota were talking about setting up a network but they weren't planning to share it either.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-to-install-electric-car-chargers-across-dealer-network/

PS I only think I'm actually really meaningfully reducing emissions when I ride my bike places which I do a lot. Been riding to work every day since 2010. 25k a day round trip not done in a car. If you really want to save the planet don't drive. EV owners who think they are somehow saving the world by driving their EV everywhere don't rate highly for critical thinking in my books.
PPS Look an article on the economics of the Tesla network. Well a little bit anyway

Charging: How Tesla will stay profitable, even without top-selling EVs (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/how-tesla-will-stay-profitable-without-top-selling-evs)

[scarry]

Volkswagen scales back EV production | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/volkswagen-scales-back-ev-production?fbclid=IwAR2xbYdpMF4oLLgmGYHxDtBc4jbqwG L7r2gYfJ61_zbMgUhYqMZscGVoJNY)

No surprise

[PhilipA]

My only comment is that you are comparing apples with oranges.
What about a small car the same size as an EV , say a Corolla or in my case a Honda Jazz.(at say 5.5L per100Km on the highway)
I believe the numbers will be much closer.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

I know this might shock you.. but what if I said they are **really** nice things to drive around in? Quiet and comfortable. Ample performance. I can't think of any car I could have got for the money with the same attributes.



Having driven a Model S and Model Y I can confirm the performance is ‘ample’ and then some. [emoji4]

Quiet, yes. Comfortable - no, not even close and we’ve discussed this - sounds like this may have been sorted.

Similar car for the money - I could think of dozens but each to their own.

Given I do 100’s of KM towing up to 3 tonne on a regular basis there isn’t an EV that works for me and even if there was, back to my earlier points - I have no where to charge one. Street parking so would need to run a lead across a footpath - Council have already send letters to everyone saying this is strictly prohibited so I’m guessing it’s already happening in places. Can’t charge it at work so where? One busted charger in town. How are these issues solved?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Having driven a Model S and Model Y I can confirm the performance is ‘ample’ and then some. [emoji4]

Quiet, yes. Comfortable - no, not even close and we’ve discussed this - sounds like this may have been sorted.

Similar car for the money - I could think of dozens but each to their own.

Given I do 100’s of KM towing up to 3 tonne on a regular basis there isn’t an EV that works for me and even if there was, back to my earlier points - I have no where to charge one. Street parking so would need to run a lead across a footpath - Council have already send letters to everyone saying this is strictly prohibited so I’m guessing it’s already happening in places. Can’t charge it at work so where? One busted charger in town. How are these issues solved?

You see.. this is the problem. You're an outlier. We need to say "That's OK". There are no viable EV alternatives for what you're doing and what you use your vehicle for. So just don't worry about it!

We need to electrify things as it's the only way out (electrify everything and shift the grid to renewables). But how about we just focus on the easy wins first. I have no idea on the percentage, but I'd be guessing that north of 50% of Australias vehicle fleet could be electrified with what we have now or what's arriving in the next few years. I'm going to ride to work in a few minutes, and I'll be riding past a sea of vehicles stuck in a giant traffic jam. They are office workers just like me who just left home and are driving to their work in the city, or dropping the kids off at school on the way (it's school holidays but you know what I mean). Let's just keep the focus on this group for the minute.

There are 15 million vehicles in Australia and we sell one million new cars a year. Even if 100% were electric it's going to be a long long while till we've even gotten through the "easy wins". So for the moment let's just focus on city dwellers using passenger cars for their urban runabouts. That will probably take the rest of this decade at least!

Despite appearances I don't think most Australians need two raptors in the driveway to drop the kids to school.

Rewiring Australia founder Saul Griffith is a man on a mission to electrify the nation, one suburb at a time - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-27/saul-griffith-plan-to-rewire-australia/101762960)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My only comment is that you are comparing apples with oranges.
What about a small car the same size as an EV , say a Corolla or in my case a Honda Jazz.(at say 5.5L per100Km on the highway)
I believe the numbers will be much closer.
Regards PhilipA

For the record - the Tesla MY is more the size of a traditional Aussie family car. We had a VW Golf previously and it was too small for our family now. I'm 186, and my son is 188 and still going. But yes changing the comparison car to a passenger car would change the calculations somewhat. And that shows that while EV's are better for the environment - each and every car trip has an environmental cost even in an EV.

None the less - it's why two car families like ours should consider having one of the vehicles as an EV.


186025

[PhilipA]

None the less - it's why two car families like ours should consider having one of the vehicles as an EV.
I don't agree.
My wife plays golf and part of the duty of the second car is to visit golf courses that may be up to 200Km away, leaving early morning and returning at night or overnighting for a couple of nights.
The overnight stays usually involve a function with only a short break to change dress. In her case it is unrealistic to suggest that she should go looking for a charger somewhere to enable her to get home.
Again my son lives at Kellyville and we live at Kincumber about 100Km away . so we would have to make very sure that we charged overnight to be certain we could get there and back on a hot day, and forget it if the inevitable semi rollover happens on the M1.
I believe that many families would have similar patterns .
Or of course we could have a hybrid or ICE car and take 5 minutes to refuel.
I looked at cheap EVs such as the Nissan Leaf second hand but their range of about 80-100Km is just a joke. How much range will an MG have left after say 5-8 years? .
An ICE car keeps much the same range for it's life.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

You see.. this is the problem. You're an outlier. We need to say "That's OK". There are no viable EV alternatives for what you're doing and what you use your vehicle for. So just don't worry about it!

We need to electrify things as it's the only way out (electrify everything and shift the grid to renewables). But how about we just focus on the easy wins first. I have no idea on the percentage, but I'd be guessing that north of 50% of Australias vehicle fleet could be electrified with what we have now or what's arriving in the next few years. I'm going to ride to work in a few minutes, and I'll be riding past a sea of vehicles stuck in a giant traffic jam. They are office workers just like me who just left home and are driving to their work in the city, or dropping the kids off at school on the way (it's school holidays but you know what I mean). Let's just keep the focus on this group for the minute.

There are 15 million vehicles in Australia and we sell one million new cars a year. Even if 100% were electric it's going to be a long long while till we've even gotten through the "easy wins". So for the moment let's just focus on city dwellers using passenger cars for their urban runabouts. That will probably take the rest of this decade at least!

Despite appearances I don't think most Australians need two raptors in the driveway to drop the kids to school.

Rewiring Australia founder Saul Griffith is a man on a mission to electrify the nation, one suburb at a time - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-27/saul-griffith-plan-to-rewire-australia/101762960)

I doubt the number would be close to 50% could go ev on fleet vehicles. If I look at the last company I worked for a a decent sample size - around 400 company vehicle around the country - only a handful could be EV’s and they did a lot of research just before I left to see what they could do in this space.

Killers were - Nowhere to charge at work - the car parks at the branches were mostly on street or a long way from a power source. Most drivers parked their company cars on the street at night, and initial cost - they but pauper pack mid size SUV’s for 30 odd K each.

That’s a large National business. Where I am now is a family business - 8 company cars and 6 trucks. Again, nowhere to charge them at work and the cost would be eye watering to do this. Again, most are parked on street at night and third - again, way too expensive for the business to consider buying.

So that’s a large and small company where it wouldn’t work - where’s the 50% coming from?

[Homestar]

And as I’ve said many times - I’m not anti EV and love that people have them and enjoy them and they are fit for purpose but it’s the pro ev brigade that push their agenda down our throats saying all sorts of BS about how they’ll work for the majority and we simply MUST get on board.

Buy an ev if you want, that’s fine but don’t chastise me for wanting to (and having to) stay with an ICE vehicle.

[NavyDiver]

Volkswagen scales back EV production | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/volkswagen-scales-back-ev-production?fbclid=IwAR2xbYdpMF4oLLgmGYHxDtBc4jbqwG L7r2gYfJ61_zbMgUhYqMZscGVoJNY)

No surprise

Interesting read. thanks.

"with up to 361 miles (EPA estimate) on a full charge provided by the single-motor SE trim, although Car and Driver notes that it observed only 260 miles on its 75-mile-per-hour highway test. But even if the projected range wasn’t as long as the official figure, the Ioniq 6 (https://insideevs.com/hyundai/ioniq-6/) managed to hit an efficiency figure of 140 MPGe combined, topping the rear-wheel-drive Tesla Model 3 (https://insideevs.com/tesla/model-3/)’s 132 MPGe." from Hyundai Ioniq 6 Is Car and Driver’s 2023 EV of the Year (https://insideevs.com/news/674289/hyundai-ioniq-6-car-and-driver-ev-of-the-year/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)
Other bit is a former POTUS stock pick went belly up! "Trump-backed startup at war with iPhone maker over failed electric ute | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/us-electric-ute-startup-goes-down-fighting-sues-iphone-maker)"

On VW and Germany in particular the Power prices/cost and other issues having a huge impact on Germany industry and consumers. I assume I know one of the main reasons [bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Tesla USA VW charging deal is also interesting. The US anti trust (competition watchdogs) have not raised a issue yet[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]Ford, GM now VW may not go down at all well in EU or even here perhaps?


The EV change in Thailand is interesting. With huge amounts of scooters which have tiny fuel tanks needing to be fueled almost daily due to the huge hills on many of the roads here it is funny that there is not a lot more. Some BYD and MG evs with a truck load of more models of MGs here including a UTE (Not EVs.

[101RRS]

A friend of mine just traded his old Honda Civic Hybrid for a BYD Atto 3 - I had never heard of this brand before but is a chinese brand that has been selling in Aust for a year or two - like a lot of the chinese stuff it is at the cheaper end of the range.

BYDAutomotive.com.au | BYD ATTO 3 - New Energy Vehicles (https://bydautomotive.com.au/atto-3)

[Saitch]

A friend of mine just traded his old Honda Civic Hybrid for a BYD Atto 3 - I had never heard of this brand before but is a chinese brand that has been selling in Aust for a year or two - like a lot of the chinese stuff it is at the cheaper end of the range.

BYDAutomotive.com.au | BYD ATTO 3 - New Energy Vehicles (https://bydautomotive.com.au/atto-3)

I'm aware that 'Form follows Function', but it looks no different to 99% of the other manufacturers' products.

i.e. boringly bland ad nauseum. :thumbsdown:

[Homestar]

It looks very much like a Haval - another bucket of ****. The windows especially - very high and I’d like the Haval too high to lean your arm on and the armrest in the doorcard is too low.

[johnp38]

EV charging - Making it easy. Making it safe. | ABCB (https://abcb.gov.au/news/2023/ev-charging-making-it-easy-making-it-safe)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I doubt the number would be close to 50% could go ev on fleet vehicles. If I look at the last company I worked for a a decent sample size - around 400 company vehicle around the country - only a handful could be EV’s and they did a lot of research just before I left to see what they could do in this space.

Killers were - Nowhere to charge at work - the car parks at the branches were mostly on street or a long way from a power source. Most drivers parked their company cars on the street at night, and initial cost - they but pauper pack mid size SUV’s for 30 odd K each.

That’s a large National business. Where I am now is a family business - 8 company cars and 6 trucks. Again, nowhere to charge them at work and the cost would be eye watering to do this. Again, most are parked on street at night and third - again, way too expensive for the business to consider buying.

So that’s a large and small company where it wouldn’t work - where’s the 50% coming from?

You're not really thinking of the big picture I'm afraid. It's hard not to look at what you live I know. I could do the same. On my floor at work there is probably 100 or so occupants, and not one of them have to drive or have a work vehicle. There's 26 floors in my building.

Over half of Australias population drive themselves to work. In Brisbane it's actually nearly 80% after the pandemic!

Australia’s journey to work | Australian Bureau of Statistics (https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/australias-journey-work)

The vast vast majority of vehicles in Australia are privately owned. More households have 2 or three cars than one car.

Number of cars per household | Australia | Community profile (https://profile.id.com.au/australia/car-ownership#:~:text=Analysis%20of%20the%20car%20owne rship,respectively%20in%20Greater%20Capital%20Citi es.)

I'm sure I said the 50% figure was made up, but I reckon it's reasonable! Personally - if I were running the joint I'd be doing some proper research in this. I think it would be very beneficial in setting future transport policy but there you go.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't agree.
My wife plays golf and part of the duty of the second car is to visit golf courses that may be up to 200Km away, leaving early morning and returning at night or overnighting for a couple of nights.
The overnight stays usually involve a function with only a short break to change dress. In her case it is unrealistic to suggest that she should go looking for a charger somewhere to enable her to get home.
Again my son lives at Kellyville and we live at Kincumber about 100Km away . so we would have to make very sure that we charged overnight to be certain we could get there and back on a hot day, and forget it if the inevitable semi rollover happens on the M1.
I believe that many families would have similar patterns .
Or of course we could have a hybrid or ICE car and take 5 minutes to refuel.
I looked at cheap EVs such as the Nissan Leaf second hand but their range of about 80-100Km is just a joke. How much range will an MG have left after say 5-8 years? .
An ICE car keeps much the same range for it's life.
Regards PhilipA
There are any number of EV's that could do that without the need to charge. Think of all that petrol money you'd be saving!

If The Tesla experience plays out, the oldest ev's typically have over 85% after 10 years. In theory the LFP packs being fitted now should do better.

A Study on Real-Life Tesla Battery Deterioration | NimbleFins (https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration#:~:text=Tesla%20Battery%20Degradatio n%20by%20Age%20of%20Car&text=As%20you%20can%20see%20in,its%20original%20ca pacity%20and%20range.)

[Tombie]

There are any number of EV's that could do that without the need to charge. Think of all that petrol money you'd be saving!

If The Tesla experience plays out, the oldest ev's typically have over 85% after 10 years. In theory the LFP packs being fitted now should do better.

A Study on Real-Life Tesla Battery Deterioration | NimbleFins (https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration#:~:text=Tesla%20Battery%20Degradatio n%20by%20Age%20of%20Car&text=As%20you%20can%20see%20in,its%20original%20ca pacity%20and%20range.)

Saving petrol money? Again it’s just funds shifting.
An equivalent Petrol vehicle of same trim level as say a Tesla is about 1/2 the price.

That’s a lot of petrol…and no inconvenience or limitations (short of a fuel strike).

TL;DR

On the other topics (to save another reply):
Public transport will never replace single drivers - convenience and timing just won’t allow it here.
Even where I live, a trip home after work will likely not be directly home. Nor will my work exit be “on time” it never is.
Most of my colleagues are the same.

And quite a way back in the thread you quoted “cleaner air in cities” - again that’s great, it’s NIMBY though. Less exhaust emissions in the city vs significant emissions at mine sites, processing facilities, power producers - even “renewables” which consume sickening amounts of CO2 in their structures and production processes.

By the time all of that is dealt with over the planned life of EV vehicles, it really isn’t beneficial. Lots of innocent workers will be dead or seriously ill, so that a western city can have clean(er) air. Lots of seriously big mining assets will have dug multitudes of dirt for the precious Lithium bearing ore, burning millions of tonnes of fuel to do so.

Copper miners will have multiplied production and emissions to make the necessary copper for engines, power transmission etc.

Iron producers (yes I make my living at one) will ramp production to make more cars and engines, meaning more emissions above and beyond…

It doesn’t end, we all use the same planet, same atmosphere. All that’s happening is little pockets of western air are slightly less dirty than 2nd / 3rd world areas.

There is no money to be saved by owner #1 of an EV.
It’s entirely swallowed by the up front cost vs an equivalent liquid fuelled vehicle.

My 195,000km travelled D4 has required $34,000 in fuel and cost ~$80k = $114,000 out of my pocket. And it’s 12 years old. The first 130,000km was done in the first 5 years.

When looking at a Tesla, it was $165,000 and would be turned over by 5 years.

That would then require the mining etc to produce another one for me to buy. Another $165,000 outlay (less trade in).

In the meantime, even with lots of solar, my power bill would increase significantly, my inconvenience would be exponentially increased, and a tiny part of my area would have slightly cleaner air.


So how is this a benefit?

[Tombie]

The EV change in Thailand is interesting. With huge amounts of scooters which have tiny fuel tanks needing to be fueled almost daily due to the huge hills on many of the roads here it is funny that there is not a lot more. Some BYD and MG evs with a truck load of more models of MGs here including a UTE (Not EVs.

Problem is Thailands power supply regularly Browns out already. Their primary generation is massive Coal Power stations and they cannot maintain supply. Our house regularly loses power or voltage drops (Brown out) for hours on end - and we aren’t far from one of the big generators.

Hills kill EV scooters very quickly. Thai people are moving fast all the time to make their meagre livings- look at their trucks, all on LPG using quick change bottles to make refilling faster.

You’ll see a few EVs, mostly ex-Pats who can afford them, and who have Euro/Aus/USA bank balances to pay for the dirt cheap power costs - they’re the only winners. (Our power bill for the Hua Hin house is about $15 AU per month. )

[Homestar]

Yeah was about to chip in before I read Tombie’s post. Lowest spec Model Y is $69,000 and let’s say compare that to a base spec RAV4 - something that can handle a set of golf clubs and 4 people no dramas. They are $39,000 so a $30K difference. How much petrol will that buy? I’m glad you asked.

Currently $1.70 a litre around here but let’s say $1.90 a litre for ****s and giggles. That’s 15,789 litres of bang juice. RAV4 will average around 8 litres per 100KM, so around 200KKM or 13 years at the Australia average KM.

Average age of a car in Aus is 10 years.

RAV4 is still a pretty good goer at 10 years, and the Model Y - well we need to stay tuned for that don’t we.


You can see this doesn’t add up right saying you’re saving fuel by having an EV…?

[JDNSW]

Or putting it another way, for most car owners in Australia, by far the major cost per kilometre is not the fuel (or electricity) cost, or manintenance and repairs, but the fixed costs - registration, insurance, and the big ones, capital cost and opportunity cost, both of which are directly proportional to initial outlay - and also rise as interest rates rise. Of course, these are offset by the resale value, but this offset has to be discounted as the dollar ten (average) years down the road, is devalued according to the inflation figure.

Of course, very few take finance seriously into account when deciding to buy a car - why else would we all be driving Landrovers?

[NavyDiver]

Change to Thailand report. Found dozen more BYD ev pvt and taxis while walk around Phukett old town. I should have taken my wet suite!!!! About twenty e-scooters spotted during my long walk.

The hills are why I thought ev bikes/cars should rock as the up is painful plus for everything the tuk tuks struggle[biggrin] and down regen IF ev should give back power on what now still cost for brake pads and a little bit of petrol.

The amount of Electricity used here is mind blowing - Air conditioning ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++ cost must hurt! A shopping centre I was in today was chilly. Hate to think of the costs![bighmmm]

Anyone here thought of U308 I wonder?

[350RRC]

..................

Anyone here thought of U308 I wonder?

Has that been found down next to the Titanic as well?

[bighmmm]DL

[RANDLOVER]

................saving the planet when only 7% of our emissions come from vehicles in the first place.

It’s all misplaced focus and the big polluters are very happy to keep it that way. I’ll keep driving a diesel vehicle knowing that it really does have **** all to do with the total emissions we produce in reality. Until other much bigger changes are made we’re ****ing in the wind with EV’s if you are only looking at one thing.

I think you've dropped a 1 as Aus transport is 17.6% of our emissions......What are the sources of Australia’s greenhouse gases? - CSIRO (https://www.csiro.au/en/research/environmental-impacts/climate-change/climate-change-qa/sources-of-ghg-gases)



energy (burning fossil fuels to produce electricity) contributed 33.6 per cent of the total emissions
stationary energy (including manufacturing, mining, residential and commercial fuel use) 20.4 per cent
transport 17.6 per cent
agriculture 14.6 per cent
fugitive emissions 10.0 per cent
industrial processes 6.2 per cent
waste 2.7 per cent.

I think EV's and especially solar are popular in some quarters, as they are changes people can make, to affect the rest they'd have to, stop eating, stop using stuff. Hence the saying, "think global, act local". Once people have solar and/or an EV they will wonder why the businesses they support don't, and pressure will build for them to do so, albeit there may be some green washing, but it has already started for example, Big supermarkets set emissions reduction targets (afr.com) (https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/big-supermarkets-set-emissions-reduction-targets-20211004-p58x5v) from the Aus Financial Review.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yeah was about to chip in before I read Tombie’s post. Lowest spec Model Y is $69,000 and let’s say compare that to a base spec RAV4 - something that can handle a set of golf clubs and 4 people no dramas. They are $39,000 so a $30K difference. How much petrol will that buy? I’m glad you asked.

Currently $1.70 a litre around here but let’s say $1.90 a litre for ****s and giggles. That’s 15,789 litres of bang juice. RAV4 will average around 8 litres per 100KM, so around 200KKM or 13 years at the Australia average KM.

Average age of a car in Aus is 10 years.

RAV4 is still a pretty good goer at 10 years, and the Model Y - well we need to stay tuned for that don’t we.


You can see this doesn’t add up right saying you’re saving fuel by having an EV…?
The current price of a Rav4 is between 47 and 54k with the top one being 60k. Does toyota even bring in the base one?

A byd Atto is about 51 drive away. As of yesterday, a model 3 is 61 DA. In some states you might get some rebates. That alone looks pretty close. In some states you might get some rebates too. (in QLD some may qualify for 6.8k). I don't think that's greatly different.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Saving petrol money? Again it’s just funds shifting.
An equivalent Petrol vehicle of same trim level as say a Tesla is about 1/2 the price.

That’s a lot of petrol…and no inconvenience or limitations (short of a fuel strike).

TL;DR

On the other topics (to save another reply):
Public transport will never replace single drivers - convenience and timing just won’t allow it here.
Even where I live, a trip home after work will likely not be directly home. Nor will my work exit be “on time” it never is.
Most of my colleagues are the same.

And quite a way back in the thread you quoted “cleaner air in cities” - again that’s great, it’s NIMBY though. Less exhaust emissions in the city vs significant emissions at mine sites, processing facilities, power producers - even “renewables” which consume sickening amounts of CO2 in their structures and production processes.

By the time all of that is dealt with over the planned life of EV vehicles, it really isn’t beneficial. Lots of innocent workers will be dead or seriously ill, so that a western city can have clean(er) air. Lots of seriously big mining assets will have dug multitudes of dirt for the precious Lithium bearing ore, burning millions of tonnes of fuel to do so.

Copper miners will have multiplied production and emissions to make the necessary copper for engines, power transmission etc.

Iron producers (yes I make my living at one) will ramp production to make more cars and engines, meaning more emissions above and beyond…

It doesn’t end, we all use the same planet, same atmosphere. All that’s happening is little pockets of western air are slightly less dirty than 2nd / 3rd world areas.

There is no money to be saved by owner #1 of an EV.
It’s entirely swallowed by the up front cost vs an equivalent liquid fuelled vehicle.

My 195,000km travelled D4 has required $34,000 in fuel and cost ~$80k = $114,000 out of my pocket. And it’s 12 years old. The first 130,000km was done in the first 5 years.

When looking at a Tesla, it was $165,000 and would be turned over by 5 years.

That would then require the mining etc to produce another one for me to buy. Another $165,000 outlay (less trade in).

In the meantime, even with lots of solar, my power bill would increase significantly, my inconvenience would be exponentially increased, and a tiny part of my area would have slightly cleaner air.


So how is this a benefit?
So, "it will be required to be turned over" after 5 years? What's happening to the car then? Just shot into space? [bigsmile]

The indications from the US is that most Tesla batteries at ten years have over 85% capacity still remaining. There will be a point that they won't be viable for sure, but it's probably going to be of similar age to most similar cars. We believe the new LFP batteries being used now should have less degradation.

And when that time comes, lithium batteries are in excess of 90% recyclable. So it's going to go around again.

FYI Teslas are far far less than 160k now. In fact, you'd get two of them for the price of a fairly poverty Land Rover.

Tesla slashes prices of best selling Model Y and Model 3 to lowest ever level (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/01/tesla-slashes-prices-of-best-selling-model-y-and-model-3-to-lowest-ever-level/)

And seeing you're opposed to cleaner air in cities, and less people dying of pollution related deaths, won't you think of Australias fuel security? Or we love that Russian Oil?

I've said before and I'll say again.. if you really want to throw something at EV's that should stick it's the whole Jevons paradox stuff. Everytime you make something cheaper you use it more.. that's what humans do.

I find it hilarious that people can't deal with EV's. They are just cars with a different type of propulsion. They are still cars. They are probably a little bit better for the environment than an equivalent, but they're still a car. All car trips have consequence.

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox)

[PhilipA]

energy (burning fossil fuels to produce electricity) contributed 33.6 per cent of the total emissions
stationary energy (including manufacturing, mining, residential and commercial fuel use) 20.4 per cent
transport 17.6 per cent
agriculture 14.6 per cent
fugitive emissions 10.0 per cent
industrial processes 6.2 per cent
waste 2.7 per cent.


Transport includes
cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships, tractors, mining trucks, motorcycles, fire trucks, and probably a few more that I cannot think of.
I am all for electric buses, mining trucks, semis, etc but after much ado, there seems to be a general pull back from these.
I understand from news reports that the truck replacement battery thing has died and that the electric bus conversion plan by the Government has slooooowed down greatly. Also I seem to recall a slow down in the electric mining truck project.
Cheap EVs will first sell to virtue ( and rent) seeking companies and governments rather than individuals.
Still for a very significant part of the population even the cheapest EV is so far off the planet in cost for pensioners, low income workers, the unemplyed, students .
EVs are really an elitist luxury.
I can recall That Evs were proposed a few years back as the ideal car for retired people. retired people are usually asset rich and cash poor. even those who have cash seem unwilling to buy Evs. in my Probus club of 140members only one has a Tesla, and boy does he evangelise to the utter boredom of all others. He has a long range 3 and even then to go to broken Hill he had to make a detour of hundreds of Ks to find a charger to be able to make it. His wife also has a Hyundai Kona and admits to stealing power from motels . Lucky she wasn't caught .

Regards PhilipA

Just an other amusing titbit . When i worked for the NSW State government, they were tasked with buying Priuses. Same reasons as now. urban pollution etc. They sent them to the farrest flunge outposts. When I asked the Director General , based in Central Sydney why he hadn't swapped his Statesman for one I had a very icy reception.

BTW the Commonwealth Government Green Guide says this

Motor vehicle exhausts also produce greenhouse gases that contribute to climate change. The main greenhouse gas produced by vehicles is carbon dioxide (CO2), but they also produce nitrous oxide and methane. Light vehicles account for around 11 per cent of Australia's greenhouse gas emissions.

So closer to 8% than 18%.

[NavyDiver]

Transport includes
cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships, tractors, mining trucks, motorcycles, fire trucks, and probably a few more that I cannot think of.
I am all for electric buses, mining trucks, semis, etc but after much ado, there seems to be a general pull back from these.
I understand from news reports that the truck replacement battery thing has died and that the electric bus conversion plan by the Government has slooooowed down greatly. Also I seem to recall a slow down in the electric mining truck project.
Cheap EVs will first sell to virtue ( and rent) seeking companies and governments rather than individuals.
Still for a very significant part of the population even the cheapest EV is so far off the planet in cost for pensioners, low income workers, the unemplyed, students .
EVs are really an elitist luxury.
I can recall That Evs were proposed a few years back as the ideal car for retired people. retired people are usually asset rich and cash poor. even those who have cash seem unwilling to buy Evs. in my Probus club of 140members only one has a Tesla, and boy does he evangelise to the utter boredom of all others. He has a long range 3 and even then to go to broken Hill he had to make a detour of hundreds of Ks to find a charger to be able to make it. His wife also has a Hyundai Kona and admits to stealing power from motels . Lucky she wasn't caught .

Regards PhilipA

Just an other amusing titbit . When i worked for the NSW State government, they were tasked with buying Priuses. Same reasons as now. urban pollution etc. They sent them to the farrest flunge outposts. When I asked the Director General , based in Central Sydney why he hadn't swapped his Statesman for one I had a very icy reception.

BTW the Commonwealth Government Green Guide says this

So closer to 8% than 18%.





Director General types might be an issue? I suspect the changes occuring will be faster than many think and a lot faster than some want. Prices are failing fast, battery tech is improving faster than most thought possible. My range handicapped MG 200ish is now 400 or more at the same or lower price. Director General types might like the new polestar very statesman like and possibly cheaper in inflation adjusted money? I know a

Us very long range 4wd towing types are still waiting patiently

[JDNSW]

.....
Us very long range 4wd towing types are still waiting patiently

Speak for yourself. I probably only have another ten years of driving - can you seriously see any possibility of a heavy four wheel drive EV that can be afforded by a pensioner in that time frame? Unfortunately, I can't. My 110 has not quite done 700,000, and is currently worth about what I paid for it over thirty years ago, and it will probably still be going in that time frame. But I would really like to replace it with a practical EV that can actually reach my home, and can tow my trailer occasionally, (no deliveries here) and carry all my grandkids on occasion.

[NavyDiver]

Speak for yourself. I probably only have another ten years of driving - can you seriously see any possibility of a heavy four wheel drive EV that can be afforded by a pensioner in that time frame? Unfortunately, I can't. My 110 has not quite done 700,000, and is currently worth about what I paid for it over thirty years ago, and it will probably still be going in that time frame. But I would really like to replace it with a practical EV that can actually reach my home, and can tow my trailer occasionally, (no deliveries here) and carry all my grandkids on occasion.
You may be right. Reading today how Mazda shift to Luxury car types has moved the more affordable crown to BYD which is mostly EV. Here in Thailand I am seeing a lot of 2wd utes including a MG which was a surprise to me.

We know China has borrowed a LOT of the technology from joint ventures with most car manufacturers and the safety, fit and finish is mostly at or even above some of the manufacturers who taught the chinese how to do it.

The MG or at least the BYD EV 4wd ute with rumored range of over 1000km ( a lot less with towing of course)

I fully agree keeping your 110 running to a magic million is more than possible. I would have loved to have battery tech/fuel cell at an affordable cost to move my Disco away from the regular maintenace/fuel costs I do not wish to ever pay for again.

[NavyDiver]

Speak for yourself. I probably only have another ten years of driving - can you seriously see any possibility of a heavy four wheel drive EV that can be afforded by a pensioner in that time frame? Unfortunately, I can't. My 110 has not quite done 700,000, and is currently worth about what I paid for it over thirty years ago, and it will probably still be going in that time frame. But I would really like to replace it with a practical EV that can actually reach my home, and can tow my trailer occasionally, (no deliveries here) and carry all my grandkids on occasion.
You may be right. Reading today how Mazda shift to Luxury car types has moved the more affordable crown to BYD which is mostly EV. Here in Thailand I am seeing a lot of 4wd utes including a MG which was a surprise to me.

We know China has borrowed a LOT of the technology from joint ventures with most car manufacturers and the safety, fit and finish is mostly at or even above some of the manufacturers who taught the chinese how to do it.

The MG or at least the BYD EV 4wd ute with rumored range of over 1000km ( a lot less with towing of course)

I fully agree keeping your 110 running to a magic million is more than possible. I would have loved to have battery tech/fuel cell at an affordable cost to move my Disco away from the regular maintenace/fuel costs I do not wish to ever pay for again.

Link to the MG I am seeing here. NOT EV
(https://www.drive.com.au/news/2021-mg-extender-extra-cab-and-dual-cab-utes-unveiled-in-right-hand-drive/)
The BYD ute is likely to be 2024 apparently. Link to one in NZ with the rumored 1000km! (https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/131420279/byd-is-working-on-an-allelectric-ute#:~:text=BYD%20is%20building%20a%20ute.%20It%20 was%20first,than%20the%20Hilux%20and%20200mm%20off %20the%20Ranger%29.)

The last car I brought for my mum and dad will be their last drive as well. Oddly we were closely looking at a hybrid camry at the auction where I brought them a ex police car.
Thier next door neighbor has a hybrid camry which would have been the same age as ex government ones I saw that day. The stated if cost a lot less to run to Melbourne and maintain than the prior car they had.

At the time I assumed incorrectly that the hybrid camry would not be very helpful in long country runs that thier next door neighbor swears it does..

[RANDLOVER]

So, "it will be required to be turned over" after 5 years? What's happening to the car then? Just shot into space? [bigsmile]...........

From what some people seem to be saying on here, EV's will soon depreciate so rapidly they will be almost giving them away, so you'd be absolutely mad not to buy one and then hire an ICE vehicle for towing, holidays, extended family outings, etc. [biggrin]

[Homestar]

At the time I assumed incorrectly that the hybrid camry would not be very helpful in long country runs that thier next door neighbor swears it does..

I think you assumed correctly. Partner has a 12 month old Hybrid RAV4 as a company car, she does a good mix of City and Country driving - including towing a small frame trailer with a light blow moulded base on it (work stuff). She keeps weekly and trip data on fuel usage. The hybrids shine around town going as low as 5.2LPH but averaging 5.7 and Highway driving averaging 8.2 and towing (280kg all up) 8.8. Given they are quite a decent sized vehicle and there’s always a bunch of work stuff in it it’s pretty good and Yotas hybrid system is very smooth and well integrated but I see nothing in their design and operation that makes them any cheaper to run on the highway. Tiny battery and electric motor as designed for start stop motoring.

Maybe they had something a bit thirstier last time so they think 8’s are good but the engine runs all the time above 40KPH so there’s no saving when on the Highway.

A bit of the placebo effect maybe. But if they are happy and think that’s the case that’s fine as well.

[JDNSW]

From what some people seem to be saying on here, EV's will soon depreciate so rapidly they will be almost giving them away, so you'd be absolutely mad not to buy one and then hire an ICE vehicle for towing, holidays, extended family outings, etc. [biggrin]

Problem with that is that the simple fact that in the Australian context, demand for holidays, towing etc is concentrated on public holidays and school holidays. For these rentals to be available when needed, they would need to be idle most of the time. So if you depend on renting your tow vehicle, 4wd etc, you can expect it to be either "book a year ahead", or "pay through the nose". Or both.

[Homestar]

Tow vehicles are generally unavailable for short term rental as they all go to long term projects and outside these vehicles, rental companies don't fit tow bars or allow towing with any of their other vehicles. We used to try and book 3 each year at the same time for a project - 1 months hire - and pretty much every rental company in the end told us we were dreaming and they could do it if we'd pay a 3 month minimum. We outsourced that part of the work a few years back because of this so good luck renting a dual cab for the holidays.

[scarry]

Tow vehicles are generally unavailable for short term rental as they all go to long term projects and outside these vehicles, rental companies don't fit tow bars or allow towing with any of their other vehicles. We used to try and book 3 each year at the same time for a project - 1 months hire - and pretty much every rental company in the end told us we were dreaming and they could do it if we'd pay a 3 month minimum. We outsourced that part of the work a few years back because of this so good luck renting a dual cab for the holidays.

And try to rent something to go on a dirt road,or off road,very difficult to find as well.

And dont think of just taking it there,as most hire vehicles have trackers on them.

[DiscoDB]

Just keep your current Land Rovers people (or what ever other 4WD floats your boat).

Petrol and diesel will be around for another 20-30 years.

[Homestar]

Just keep your current Land Rovers people (or what ever other 4WD floats your boat).

Petrol and diesel will be around for another 20-30 years.

I think diesel will be around a lot longer than that to be honest. I can’t see agriculture being able to transition away from diesel without 3/4 of the world starving to death.

[vnx205]

I think you assumed correctly. .... .....
.... .... ...
.... ......
but I see nothing in their design and operation that makes them any cheaper to run on the highway. Tiny battery and electric motor as designed for start stop motoring.


While it is true that hybrids are best in stop/start driving, I don't accept that they offer no benefit on the highway.

My own experience with a 2016 Camry indicates that there is sill some advantage on the highway and several articles I have read explain why that should be the case. There is something in their design.

The Atkinson Cycle engine is more fuel efficient than an Otto Cycle. The loss of torque at low revs is more than compensated for by the electric motors.

So even though highway travel doesn't offer much opportunity for energy recovery through regenerative braking, the Atkinson Cycle is more fuel efficient.

I can only compare my current fuel consumption with what I used to get in my previous SV21 Camry. 400km trips from the South Coast to the Central Coast involving mostly highway travel in the SV21 used about 8.25 litres/100 km. The Hybrid Camry is about 5.4 or if I have a canoe on top about 5.6.

I would expect that a RAV would suffer a greater reduction in the benefit on the highway because it is less aerodynamic than a Camry, so suffers more at higher speeds.

[101RRS]

Yotas hybrid system is very smooth and well integrated but I see nothing in their design and operation that makes them any cheaper to run on the highway.

but the engine runs all the time above 40KPH so there’s no saving when on the Highway.



They are far more fuel efficient when running on the engine on the highway as the engine is a Atkinson cycle engine which far more efficient than the usual Otto cycle engine - the downside is they have a lot less torque hence the small electric engine and small battery to cover this lack of torque when taking off. Now I guess they could have just made a gearbox with more gears and very low 1st and 2nd to cover the lack of torque but they decided electric supplement. If the Hybrids could just run on battery only they would have a range of less than 10km.

Sorry VNX - did not see your post - well said.

[Homestar]

Many non hybrid cars including the standard RAV4 (and I think most of Toyotas offerings) and I think some of Hyundai offerings use the Atkinson cycle engine as well so compared to a standard non hybrid unit how do they differ? There is nothing new in the tech and this was done back in 2016 I think.

[vnx205]

Many non hybrid cars including the standard RAV4 (and I think most of Toyotas offerings) and I think some of Hyundai offerings use the Atkinson cycle engine as well so compared to a standard non hybrid unit how do they differ? There is nothing new in the tech and this was done back in 2016 I think.

A non-hybrid vehicle with an Atkinson Cycle engine would probably suffer some loss of performance in some circumstances.

So the answer to the question of how they differ is that the hybrid version eliminates that loss of performance.

[Homestar]

A non-hybrid vehicle with an Atkinson Cycle engine would probably suffer some loss of performance in some circumstances.

So the answer to the question of how they differ is that the hybrid version eliminates that loss of performance.

Not saying you’re wrong, but the engine is standard across lots of models now so hard to see how much different it would be on the highway at 100KPH than a Hybrid version? That’s all I’m trying to get my head around. 2 identical engines doing the same thing on highway, when the battery and motor in the hybrid aren’t doing anything.

[scarry]

I would expect that a RAV would suffer a greater reduction in the benefit on the highway because it is less aerodynamic than a Camry, so suffers more at higher speeds.

A mate has a six month old RAV hybrid,and it also gets in the 5 L/100 area on a run.

One of my Brothers has the latest Hybrid Camry,it’s economy is worse than yours but in the NT the speeds are higher as well.Generally 6 to 7L /100.
Still way better than his Prado,although it is usually loaded and often pulling the camper.

[101RRS]

2 identical engines doing the same thing on highway, when the battery and motor in the hybrid aren’t doing anything.

But they are not identical engines - the petrol Camry engine in the non hybrid is an otto cycle engine and the engine in the hybrid is a atkinson cycle engine - same for other hybrids.

Google is your friend.

[Tombie]

So, "it will be required to be turned over" after 5 years? What's happening to the car then? Just shot into space? [bigsmile]

The indications from the US is that most Tesla batteries at ten years have over 85% capacity still remaining. There will be a point that they won't be viable for sure, but it's probably going to be of similar age to most similar cars. We believe the new LFP batteries being used now should have less degradation.

And when that time comes, lithium batteries are in excess of 90% recyclable. So it's going to go around again.

FYI Teslas are far far less than 160k now. In fact, you'd get two of them for the price of a fairly poverty Land Rover.

Tesla slashes prices of best selling Model Y and Model 3 to lowest ever level (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/01/tesla-slashes-prices-of-best-selling-model-y-and-model-3-to-lowest-ever-level/)

And seeing you're opposed to cleaner air in cities, and less people dying of pollution related deaths, won't you think of Australias fuel security? Or we love that Russian Oil?

I've said before and I'll say again.. if you really want to throw something at EV's that should stick it's the whole Jevons paradox stuff. Everytime you make something cheaper you use it more.. that's what humans do.

I find it hilarious that people can't deal with EV's. They are just cars with a different type of propulsion. They are still cars. They are probably a little bit better for the environment than an equivalent, but they're still a car. All car trips have consequence.

Jevons paradox - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox)

Bit straw man ish! But ok.

I wouldn’t look at a baby Tesla for starters as it’s completely unsuitable both size and range. So back to the expensive one it would be.

Explain security? We don’t produce cars! We don’t (on volume) produce batteries, and we don’t have all the components (we import). So oil or EV we’re stuffed.

Again, sure a nice clean city is a nice dream. Less exhaust and all that. It’s the fact that all we are doing is moving that material elsewhere. When a 785 dumps 100l of exhaust emissions into the Pilbara air it is still circulating the same Blue ball. It’s just concentrated somewhere else until it dissipates and is “everywhere”.

I’m not anti-tech by any stretch.

I’m anti-bull**** and this EV phenomenon in its CURRENT form is BS of the highest order.

Less people in your city may experience less side effects, people elsewhere are experiencing more to make your part of the planet a little nicer.

We cannot achieve the proposed targets - it’s a monumental increase in mining alone to produce the elements required to meet projected demand. And it’s not done using non-emitting technology.

I’ve seen several older Teslas in recent times and let’s just say they don’t hold up quite as well as other more experienced car builders vehicles do from a quality/fit/finish perspective. And will be moved on quite soon after their lease ends!

I’m fortunate to have some very good access to emissions data and it’s Green washing at the moment.

[Tombie]

Some reading of peer reviewed technical articles shows that currently recycling of battery assemblies is almost non-existent.

The manual requirements provide significant risk to workers, are costly and time consuming (non-economic) whilst acknowledging that the recovery of these items is critical to the balancing of EV environmental issues.

If, and it’s a big if, they can get it economical and environmentally effective (recovered energy >= recovery energy) then we may be onto something - and there’s a significant focus on this.


The JD Power “90%” quoted is potential, it’s not at scale nor even remotely economical at this point - and some initiatives are “up cycling” with no longer fit for purpose units simple pushed onto a consumer market for Aux house power back ups. At some point it still needs to become recycled.

[NavyDiver]

this may be interesting- Evolution is required


"Toyota says it has made a technological breakthrough that will allow it to halve the weight, size and cost of batteries, in what could herald a major advance for electric vehicles.
The world’s second largest carmaker was already pursuing a plan to roll out cars with advanced solid-state batteries (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/aug/19/uk-consortium-solid-state-batteries-electric-cars-prototype), which offer benefits compared with liquid-based batteries, by 2025.

On Tuesday, the Japanese company said it had simplified production of the material used to make them, hailing the discovery as a significant leap forward that could dramatically cut charging times and increase driving range.

"

On Farms and agriculture. I wonder if the changes may be a bit faster than many of us suspect. Not sure of course as we all need food[thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

On Farms and agriculture. I wonder if the changes may be a bit faster than many of us suspect. Not sure of course as we all need food[thumbsupbig]

I can’t see it if the world continues the need to eat unfortunately. let’s look at a large broad acre operation. During harvest they will run say 6 x Headers - 700Hp each 24/7 - up to 200KM from the farm, then the 4 or 5 x 500HP plus tractors to keep up with them and then the fleet of trucks to haul that to the grain bins over the next 3 months plus the truck support for the 30,000 plus litres of diesel A DAY they require to run this operation. Oh, and the farm has a 100 amp single phase supply that’s run from what looks like a bit of wet string. That’s one farm and then think there are hundreds of them just in one state/province depending on the country you’re in.

I’m all ears on how this goes electric.

Diesel will be around longer than I’ll be alive - not sure when it will run out but I’m guessing we’ll all be screwed when that happens unless someone invents a Mr Fusion in the meantime. [emoji4]

[scarry]

It’s not just the harvest,there is a heap of work that is done using huge machinery well before harvest is even being thought about.

[Homestar]

It’s not just the harvest,there is a heap of work that is done using huge machinery well before harvest is even being thought about.

Yep, transport to market, seed cleaning and sorting, spraying/weed control - the list goes on all year around and it all used copious quantities of diesel. Was using harvest as the worst case scenario as it's when fuel us peaks. The amount of energy required to grow our food and get it to our plates is staggering.

Here's a nice little clip of 20 headers on one farm here in Aus.


https://youtu.be/KuAQigc_YVQ

[NavyDiver]

I can’t see it if the world continues the need to eat unfortunately. let’s look at a large broad acre operation. During harvest they will run say 6 x Headers - 700Hp each 24/7 - up to 200KM from the farm, then the 4 or 5 x 500HP plus tractors to keep up with them and then the fleet of trucks to haul that to the grain bins over the next 3 months plus the truck support for the 30,000 plus litres of diesel A DAY they require to run this operation. Oh, and the farm has a 100 amp single phase supply that’s run from what looks like a bit of wet string. That’s one farm and then think there are hundreds of them just in one state/province depending on the country you’re in.

I’m all ears on how this goes electric.

Diesel will be around longer than I’ll be alive - not sure when it will run out but I’m guessing we’ll all be screwed when that happens unless someone invents a Mr Fusion in the meantime. [emoji4]

Did you see your number? 30,000 times $1.670 is over $50,000 cost per day. Times that by a few days or weeks and we have some funding for things that are or will be cheaper. The ethanol, methane to Hydrogen or "ammonia" has options proved or about to be proved. Not a sure thing but with the hottest day Every recorded (3 July) suspect it will be forced wanted or not.

One company I had is a remote miner. The electrification via investment Small Modular Reactors nuclear is being funded by one of the biggest almost interrogated steel companies already. The company here shipping semi load of Diesel cost is beyond the $$$$$$$ many of us could count to [biggrin]

That company also invested heavily in Lanza Tech[bigwhistle]

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

Unsupported browser (https://open.spotify.com/episode/5qgid1f8v2seIDGbagazr0'si=4bed494850544d67)


The prior episode is with Cummings [bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

That’s not that much - we go through around 10,000 litres a day. It’s not a valid point saying use that money for a few weeks to find alternatives as that means skipping a harvest for a season then we all die of starvation….

I know there’s a lot of companies doing a lot of things but it’s all just faffing around at the edges at the moment and I don’t see anything changing for generations to rid out farming of their reliance on diesel. What about the second and third tier farms - they don’t even buy new equipment but used and then keep it running for decades. I don’t think they’ll be in the market for a power upgrade to their equipment until their current children’s great grand children are dead and buried (if the planet makes it that far)

[JDNSW]

Very good points. A look at history could be instructive. Farming in Australia started to mechanise (replace horses with tractors) in the early 1900s, and by the 1920s tractors were common on many farms. However, just as an example, the husband of a niece of mine, living about two farms from here, was tasked as a child, with bringing in and harnessing the horses before school in the 1960s. That farm was not entirely mechanised until about 1970. The adjoining one had no motor vehicles at all until 1968.

This perhaps indicates the sort of time scale needed for major changes in farming practices.

[Saitch]

Very good points. A look at history could be instructive. Farming in Australia started to mechanise (replace horses with tractors) in the early 1900s, and by the 1920s tractors were common on many farms. However, just as an example, the husband of a niece of mine, living about two farms from here, was tasked as a child, with bringing in and harnessing the horses before school in the 1960s. That farm was not entirely mechanised until about 1970. The adjoining one had no motor vehicles at all until 1968.

This perhaps indicates the sort of time scale needed for major changes in farming practices.
......and on a smaller scale, perhaps, the conversion of all the Council and Shire maintenance equipment, such as road graders, backhoes, semis and trucks. How are they going to refuel machinery that is carrying out repair work on, for example, the Gibb, Peninsula Dev. Rd or the like? What will happen to Main Road Camps? How will they keep their machines running? Huge gennies, I suppose.

Or won't we have the vehicle capability to use these roads any more?

[Homestar]

I still have friends who run 50 year old tractors and equipment for various tasks around their farms. They have a couple of newer (20 year old) tractors but the old stuff still does what’s required of it so why upgrade?

I have a 1967 MF165 that still goes as well as the day it was made.

[JDNSW]

My tractor was made (in Australia) in 1969. My next door neighbour, who is probably one of the wealthiest and most successful farmers in the area, has about five tractors - the newest is, I think, about twenty years old, but I think, for example, the one that is used for removing hay from the hayshed when needed is probably at least fifty years old.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

And try to rent something to go on a dirt road,or off road,very difficult to find as well.

And dont think of just taking it there,as most hire vehicles have trackers on them.
It's all but impossible to hire a 4x4 to take off road. Unfortunately.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I must say I've found the banter in here amusing. A bunch of people who say an EV would definitely not be suitable for my purposes, and won't be suitable for anyone else .. as they are useless.

Meanwhile, the people I do talk to with them. They seem to find them anything but useless. In many cases they do a lot of driving, and despite all the odds seem to find time to charge them and do what they have to do.

Last year only 1% of sales were EV's in June. This June 8.8 including getting the second spot outright.

Tesla Model Y electric SUV outsells Ford Ranger | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-model-y-electric-suv-outsells-ford-ranger)

[Homestar]

I must say I've found the banter in here amusing. A bunch of people who say an EV would definitely not be suitable for my purposes, and won't be suitable for anyone else .. as they are useless.

Meanwhile, the people I do talk to with them. They seem to find them anything but useless. In many cases they do a lot of driving, and despite all the odds seem to find time to charge them and do what they have to do.

Last year only 1% of sales were EV's in June. This June 8.8 including getting the second spot outright.

Tesla Model Y electric SUV outsells Ford Ranger | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-model-y-electric-suv-outsells-ford-ranger)

I don’t think there’s many comments at all saying they are useless to everyone. Just seems the limited to those who poke around the City and have good infrastructure where they live and drive and have a large disposable income - oh, that’s right - the Wealthy - who are very happy to tell the great unwashed to suck it up and get on board. [emoji6]

[scarry]

. Just seems the limited to those who poke around the City and have good infrastructure where they live and drive and have a large disposable income - oh, that’s right - the Wealthy - who are very happy to tell the great unwashed to suck it up and get on board. [emoji6]

Correct,i have been working on the Gold Coast for the last few weeks,hundreds of Teslas around,way more than i generally see in Brisbane.

Oh,and i wish they wouldn't sit in the second from right lane on the motorway sitting on 80Km/hr in the 110Km/hr zone,probably thinking they are saving the world[bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don’t think there’s many comments at all saying they are useless to everyone. Just seems the limited to those who poke around the City and have good infrastructure where they live and drive and have a large disposable income - oh, that’s right - the Wealthy - who are very happy to tell the great unwashed to suck it up and get on board. [emoji6]
That's exactly my point. 71% of people in Australia live in "major cities". I really do suspect that a very large proportion of those could get by with an EV solely, or at least swap one of their many cars for an EV instead of a large 4x4.

And maybe those people in cities are more wealthy but it's probably a bit dependent. Either way I see that as moot, because in recent times the biggest selling cars in Australia have been the Hulux and Ford Ranger. Both of which are at least as expensive or more than the most popular EV's in Australia. So I really don't see how this differers to the situation we have now where through decades of marketing the car companies have convinced families that the all need one or multiple large SUV's for family life.

You should do yourself a favour and check the top 20 selling cars in Australia. There are maybe only 5 that even have a model under 30k. The car industry always wins.

2071.0 - Census of Population and Housing: Reflecting Australia - Stories from the Census, 2016 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/2071.0main+features1132016)

And one last point, yes I would much rather the pollution be produced and dissipated in the areas that our coal generators have been placed (the power that isn't renewable anyway). The Calide power station for instance is in an area in which 126 people live in 76 square kilometres. I do think that letting it dissipate out there is preferable to the main road 10m from the kindy's around Australia that our youth attend, for instance. For the most part I think I can say that these facilities are not placed in major cities.

[scarry]

I don't think it is marketing at all.
People with families need the room,the majority of Ev's are tiny.

Probably over half the new ute or large wagons are company cars,where they are needed for work,an EV will never cut it,in their current form.

For an average family,i can see an EV would be fine as a second car,but then the issue is,do they have access to a charger at home?
Maybe not if living in a unit block,or a house that is being rented,or whatever.
Most family vehicles are also over 10yrs old,many that have a vehicle less than 10yrs old,are not going to race out and buy a new one now,yet alone have the funds for one.

[JDNSW]

Perhaps worth pointing out at this time that most cars bought each day in Australia are not new. And most sales are probably in the under $20k range, perhaps under $10k. It is likely to be a long time before these buyers can get an EV that is useful to them.

I look for example at my son's house. At the moment it has four income earners, three on close to minimum wage and part time. And with no (or no usable for shift work) public transport and most jobs requiring a round trip commute of 60+km, all working different hours and places, multiple cars are essential. In fact, they have four cars, one D2 (under $10k), one I30 ($12k) both diesel, one Nissan Micra, one Getz, (both well under $10k).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't think it is marketing at all.
People with families need the room,the majority of Ev's are tiny.

Probably over half the new ute or large wagons are company cars,where they are needed for work,an EV will never cut it,in their current form.

For an average family,i can see an EV would be fine as a second car,but then the issue is,do they have access to a charger at home?
Maybe not if living in a unit block,or a house that is being rented,or whatever.
Most family vehicles are also over 10yrs old,many that have a vehicle less than 10yrs old,are not going to race out and buy a new one now,yet alone have the funds for one.
Most EV's are tiny? Where do you get that from?

The biggest selling EV's in Australia last month were the Tesla Model Y and the BYD ATTO 3. The BYD Atto 3 is a big car inside. Very spacious. So is the Model Y. Fun fact for you, and current Landrover defender 110 has a cargo capacity of 2271l with the seats down. A Tesla Model Y with the seats down is 2041. If you make cars with no engine etc it's amazing how much space they have.

And yes, an there aren't many second hand EV's because in terms of numbers the majority of them on Australian roads would be less than 2 years old. Remember last june 1% EV's and this june nearly 9%. It's going to take a many years until there is a good supply of them.

In the meantime enjoy a photo of my "tiny" MY, which was Australias second most sold car last month, with a full size gravel bike in with both wheels on and room to spare.

186157

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Perhaps worth pointing out at this time that most cars bought each day in Australia are not new. And most sales are probably in the under $20k range, perhaps under $10k. It is likely to be a long time before these buyers can get an EV that is useful to them.

I look for example at my son's house. At the moment it has four income earners, three on close to minimum wage and part time. And with no (or no usable for shift work) public transport and most jobs requiring a round trip commute of 60+km, all working different hours and places, multiple cars are essential. In fact, they have four cars, one D2 (under $10k), one I30 ($12k) both diesel, one Nissan Micra, one Getz, (both well under $10k).
It's going to be years until there is a meaningful quantity of EV's second hand. In the meantime, the best thing you can do is drive what you have. Wear the ice pool out. If you are buying new, actually meaningfully consider an EV.

[Homestar]

That's exactly my point. 71% of people in Australia live in "major cities". I really do suspect that a very large proportion of those could get by with an EV solely, or at least swap one of their many cars for an EV instead of a large 4x4.

And maybe those people in cities are more wealthy but it's probably a bit dependent. Either way I see that as moot, because in recent times the biggest selling cars in Australia have been the Hulux and Ford Ranger. Both of which are at least as expensive or more than the most popular EV's in Australia. So I really don't see how this differers to the situation we have now where through decades of marketing the car companies have convinced families that the all need one or multiple large SUV's for family life.

You should do yourself a favour and check the top 20 selling cars in Australia. There are maybe only 5 that even have a model under 30k. The car industry always wins.

2071.0 - Census of Population and Housing: Reflecting Australia - Stories from the Census, 2016 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/2071.0main+features1132016)

And one last point, yes I would much rather the pollution be produced and dissipated in the areas that our coal generators have been placed (the power that isn't renewable anyway). The Calide power station for instance is in an area in which 126 people live in 76 square kilometres. I do think that letting it dissipate out there is preferable to the main road 10m from the kindy's around Australia that our youth attend, for instance. For the most part I think I can say that these facilities are not placed in major cities.

Out of the 71% that live in Cities, how many earn above the average wage? How many of those can afford an EV? Of those how many want an EV? I think you’ll find it’s the numbers get smaller every time you work through that equation.

[vnx205]

Out of the 71% that live in Cities, how many earn above the average wage? How many of those can afford an EV? Of those how many want an EV? I think you’ll find it’s the numbers get smaller every time you work through that equation.

It could still be quite a large number even with all those reductions.

I bet you could do a similar exercise to reduce the number of people for whom a new Toyota Corolla would be suitable, yet they have sold over 50 million since 1966.

List of best-selling automobiles - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_automobiles)

[Homestar]

It could still be quite a large number even with all those reductions.

I bet you could do a similar exercise to reduce the number of people for whom a new Toyota Corolla would be suitable, yet they have sold over 50 million since 1966.

List of best-selling automobiles - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_automobiles)

Large yes, I’m not denying that, I’m just sick of being told we all must consider an EV as our next vehicle - Well to all this people - you all MUST consider an ICE vehicle for your next purchase!

… No? Why not? Don’t want one huh, don’t suit your needs, I see….

Guess what, that’s how I and soooo many others feel about EV’s!

Even if you end up with a figure of 50% then that still doesn’t come close to the 100% the the EV crowd think want can use or can afford one.

I just don’t get it. Buy one, drive one love one - I’m super happy for all those that do, but like religion - don’t force it down my throat.

[PhilipA]

I read an article last week that dealer inventories of unsold EVs have reached 90 days in the USA.

Regards PhilipA

[PhilipA]

Another one.
Volkswagen: “Strong Customer Reluctance” in the Electric Vehicle Sector6 days ago (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/07/02/volkswagen-strong-customer-reluctance-in-the-electric-vehicle-sector/)
Eric Worrall (https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/eworrall1/)
163 Comments (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/07/02/volkswagen-strong-customer-reluctance-in-the-electric-vehicle-sector/#comments)

Essay by Eric Worrall
h/t CampsieFellow (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/06/30/bbc-china-is-firming-wind-and-solar-power-with-coal-plants/#comment-3741525), Geoff Buys Cars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqYI_vLYDk0); Volkswagen is scaling back electric vehicle production, laying off contractors, but internal combustion vehicle production remains unchanged.

Volkswagen scales back EV production

ByAutomotive Daily (https://www.autodaily.com.au/author/admin/)
June 28, 2023
…
Among the models affected are the ID 4 SUV and early production of the ID 7 saloon. Details of the shortening of shifts were provided by Manfred Wulff, head of the works council for the Emden plant, in response to an inquiry from the German Press Agency and an earlier article published by the North West newspaper.
While the production of combustion-engine models, including the Volkswagen Passat, continues unchanged, the factory holidays for electric vehicle line workers have been extended by one week.
…
Wulff indicates demand for electric vehicles is up to 30% below originally planned production figures.
“We are experiencing strong customer reluctance in the electric vehicle sector,” he told the North West newspaper.
Wulff said production of the ID 7 saloon had originally been planned to start in July but has now been delayed to “later this year”.
In a statement, a spokesperson for the Volkswagen Emden plant said: “We are confident that the plant’s utilisation will increase again with the launch of the ID 7 at the end of the year.


Regards PhilipA

[spudfan]

This person definately will not be buying an EV and here is why.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/other/the-rush-to-electric-vehicles-risks-killing-our-car-industry-shackling-us-to-china-and-bumping-up-our-taxes-to-reduce-global-emissions-by-just-0-044-that-s-why-i-ll-be-buying-a-brand-new-petrol-car-just-before-the-2030-ban-says-matt-ridley/ar-AA1dB8A4?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=42fe85f282cc4a15a2f70edc151319d0&ei=184

[Tombie]

Most EV's are tiny? Where do you get that from?

The biggest selling EV's in Australia last month were the Tesla Model Y and the BYD ATTO 3. The BYD Atto 3 is a big car inside. Very spacious. So is the Model Y. Fun fact for you, and current Landrover defender 110 has a cargo capacity of 2271l with the seats down. A Tesla Model Y with the seats down is 2041. If you make cars with no engine etc it's amazing how much space they have.

And yes, an there aren't many second hand EV's because in terms of numbers the majority of them on Australian roads would be less than 2 years old. Remember last june 1% EV's and this june nearly 9%. It's going to take a many years until there is a good supply of them.

In the meantime enjoy a photo of my "tiny" MY, which was Australias second most sold car last month, with a full size gravel bike in with both wheels on and room to spare.

186157

Lucky a gravel bike is light ;) (nice btw)

2400kg gvm and 2000kg empty means a 5 seater can’t really carry 5 adults and gear…Towing is awful too [emoji56][emoji23]

The key thing EVs don’t have is flexibility. Sure it’ll fit a high rise car park. And sure a second car could be smaller or an EV..

The catch is they aren’t flexible- our full size 2nd car does sub 8l/100km and goes 800km on a fill with HVAC on the entire time. It can tow 3500kg, it can go anywhere to get to MTB tracks hundreds of kilometres from here and make it home. Or it can go shopping.

Friends of mine cant use one because power leads hanging onto the road aren’t allowed. Older apartment complexes often don’t have the power feed to support multiple EVs. And there’s ****loads of those complexes out there.

I have a dinner this Thursday. It’s 275km each way and no charger close enough to zap up for the return. There is one down there however it’s 20min from where we are dining and then heading home straight after - I’m not waiting another 45min to come home.

Another example - favourite MTB trails - 190km away, lots of hilly terrain. A 500+km rated Tesla can’t do it (I know this, friend tried in his). As we often then head back via friends in another town this makes an EV less favourable as we can’t make the diversion else it’s another hour to charge (if it’s empty upon arrival).

My times valuable. Apparently EV owners isn’t. Because convenience far outweighs me sitting around scratching my arse whilst waiting for charge. I suppose I could sit arrogantly enjoying my air quality dreams which I can conveniently forget has shifted other larger issues into someone else’s backyard.

I’m not against the concept of clean air, or EVs.
I’m anti-bull****. And the model Y is a 400km (real using AC/Heating and driven not nursed) car with a sub std warranty (80/4yr on all but motor/battery) a reputation for poor build quality and materials (all Teslas) and limited “fuel” stations.

I guess with all thing EV / alt Power being subsidised at the moment it’s not surprising the green washing is taking hold.

Greener is not having less cars, that’s moot as the greener answer is buy less cars, less often - you know, back when people serviced and kept cars for a lot longer…

Oh yes, that got marketed out by the same people who will try sell you a new one every 5 years or less.

When they don’t need to tear up more planet to make them. They’ll be green. They sure aren’t now.

[DiscoDB]

Have always been curious to understand why EV’s take a big range hit when towing. They seem to be as inefficient when towing as a petrol engine.

Given the amount of low down torque an electric motor can produce, I would expect them to be more energy efficient when towing - i.e. perform more like a diesel than a petrol engine.

Makes you wonder if they suffer not having a gearbox to keep the motor at its most efficient operating point.

[JDNSW]

Electric motor efficiency is pretty much independent of the motor speed, so not that.

The main reason is that EVs almost all depend for their range on having very low aerodynamic drag. And virtually no trailers have low aerodynamic drag, and in any case, the mere presence of the trailer close behind the car will upset the airflow round the car and increase the drag of the car itself, before even counting the drag from the trailer. To avoid this the trailer would need to have a cross section that fits within the dead zone of airflow behind the car - I cannot think of any normal trailer that this could apply to.

Above about 60kph aerodynamic drag accounts for most of the energy use needed to keep a vehicle moving, and it increases as the square of the speed. (the actual speed at which it becomes dominant depends on how much other drag there is, but on EVs this is also very low compared to ICEs)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Out of the 71% that live in Cities, how many earn above the average wage? How many of those can afford an EV? Of those how many want an EV? I think you’ll find it’s the numbers get smaller every time you work through that equation.

Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise. [bigwhistle]

Yes cars are expensive - and not everyone can afford one. None the less, Australians buy like 1,000,000 cars a year typically. I'm pretty sure I've never implied or said that 5 million Australians should go out and buy an EV each year. All I've ever said was that if you really care about the environment don't drive. If you still consider you need and want to drive anyway - drive what you have. Lastly, if you need a new car consider an EV.

But if what I'm seeing in here is any guide, actually understanding them is still a really big barrier.

Last point, looking at the 1 million figure above, consider that we have on the road about 15 million cars in Australia. It's going to take a very long time for EV's to become a measurable portion of that 15 million. Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Electric motor efficiency is pretty much independent of the motor speed, so not that.

The main reason is that EVs almost all depend for their range on having very low aerodynamic drag. And virtually no trailers have low aerodynamic drag, and in any case, the mere presence of the trailer close behind the car will upset the airflow round the car and increase the drag of the car itself, before even counting the drag from the trailer. To avoid this the trailer would need to have a cross section that fits within the dead zone of airflow behind the car - I cannot think of any normal trailer that this could apply to.

Above about 60kph aerodynamic drag accounts for most of the energy use needed to keep a vehicle moving, and it increases as the square of the speed. (the actual speed at which it becomes dominant depends on how much other drag there is, but on EVs this is also very low compared to ICEs)

To put some perspective about this. Good EV's are a drag coefficient of .23. Some even .22. This is unprecedented. Any ICE car with a .2 in front is considered excellent. What they have done to get these numbers out of EV's is very very impressive. Over and under the car. Aero everywhere. It's also why they all look somewhat the same in shape, and is why adapted ICE platforms tend to suffer under the car. I think I read somewhere that a Defender is .65 or something like that for context.

The towed vehicle will not affect the aero of the towing car very much at all (unless it changes the angle of attack) but whatever you're towing is going to be draggy as hell. It will be drag over, under everywhere. Of course there is a weight effect too which won't be helping.

Perhaps the question shouldn't be why are EV's so greatly affected - but why ICE cars are not affected as badly.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Lucky a gravel bike is light ;) (nice btw)

2400kg gvm and 2000kg empty means a 5 seater can’t really carry 5 adults and gear…Towing is awful too [emoji56][emoji23]

The key thing EVs don’t have is flexibility. Sure it’ll fit a high rise car park. And sure a second car could be smaller or an EV..

The catch is they aren’t flexible- our full size 2nd car does sub 8l/100km and goes 800km on a fill with HVAC on the entire time. It can tow 3500kg, it can go anywhere to get to MTB tracks hundreds of kilometres from here and make it home. Or it can go shopping.

Friends of mine cant use one because power leads hanging onto the road aren’t allowed. Older apartment complexes often don’t have the power feed to support multiple EVs. And there’s ****loads of those complexes out there.

I have a dinner this Thursday. It’s 275km each way and no charger close enough to zap up for the return. There is one down there however it’s 20min from where we are dining and then heading home straight after - I’m not waiting another 45min to come home.

Another example - favourite MTB trails - 190km away, lots of hilly terrain. A 500+km rated Tesla can’t do it (I know this, friend tried in his). As we often then head back via friends in another town this makes an EV less favourable as we can’t make the diversion else it’s another hour to charge (if it’s empty upon arrival).

My times valuable. Apparently EV owners isn’t. Because convenience far outweighs me sitting around scratching my arse whilst waiting for charge. I suppose I could sit arrogantly enjoying my air quality dreams which I can conveniently forget has shifted other larger issues into someone else’s backyard.

I’m not against the concept of clean air, or EVs.
I’m anti-bull****. And the model Y is a 400km (real using AC/Heating and driven not nursed) car with a sub std warranty (80/4yr on all but motor/battery) a reputation for poor build quality and materials (all Teslas) and limited “fuel” stations.

I guess with all thing EV / alt Power being subsidised at the moment it’s not surprising the green washing is taking hold.

Greener is not having less cars, that’s moot as the greener answer is buy less cars, less often - you know, back when people serviced and kept cars for a lot longer…

Oh yes, that got marketed out by the same people who will try sell you a new one every 5 years or less.

When they don’t need to tear up more planet to make them. They’ll be green. They sure aren’t now.
EV's more environmentally damaging than ICE is an opinion. Everyone has one. And wanting to sell me a new one in 5 years? Isn't that standard across the whole industry? And riding my arse for turning over cars quick ... the defender is 18 years old and the other car is 54. We only replaced the golf because the family had grown out of it, and it needed to have the gearbox removed every two years to replace the clutches..

And this is the reason why we have an ICE car and a EV. If we weren't a two car family the equation would be very different at this juncture. And I don't care if an EV won't work for you. But be empathetic. Don't assume that everyone has the same requirements as yourself.

But we are - so if I need to go a long way, tow something big or carry an awful lot I can drive the Defender. The chances of two drivers in this household needing that kind of capability at the same time.. it just doesn't happen. What I've got to weigh up is the defender costs at least $20 per hundred to the $3 for the EV.

As to the chargers, yes they were scarce but they are spreading quickly around SEQ. Trips that weren't possible 18 months ago are now lined with DC chargers. I do sometimes ride to a bike ride, or drive as race support. I look at Grafton to Inverell.. in 2022 I could not have done it in an EV. This year there are fast chargers in most of the towns. Could have easily been EVable. I support Grafton to Inverell too most years (bike races that start and finish in different places require a lot of help). Anyway it's about 400 k all up. I reckon I could nearly do it in one go, but worst case I just give it 15 minutes in Warwick at the QESH charger. It's even cheap too being roughly the same price as home.

PS - yes teslas were pretty slapped together in the early days, but mine is well built. It's as good as any new car I've bought and much better than some (especially the landrover). Most people with Chinese production are saying the same thing. Didn't see that coming.
PPS Drove out to the rail trail in BNE yesterday 135k out and back. Got home with over 70%. I can just put it on charge some time over the next few days when the sun is shining. Easy.

[PhilipA]

As to the chargers, yes they were scarce but they are spreading quickly around SEQ. Trips that weren't possible 18 months ago are now lined with DC chargers. I do sometimes ride to a bike ride, or drive as race support. I look at Grafton to Inverell.. in 2022 I could not have done it in an EV. This year there are fast chargers in most of the towns. Could have easily been EVable. I support Grafton to Inverell too most years (bike races that start and finish in different places require a lot of help). Anyway it's about 400 k all up. I reckon I could nearly do it in one go, but worst case I just give it 15 minutes in Warwick at the QESH charger. It's even cheap too being roughly the same price as home.
As long as you are the only one wanting to charge at each charger.!
Be happy being an early adopter as it will not last, just look at the VLOGS from EV owners in UK.

Regards PhilipA

[PhilipA]

An interesting video on the used EV market in the UK.
Do we have a MAJOR PROBLEM with EV depreciation? Case Studies. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfrwsQHjym0&ab_channel=GeoffBuysCars)

Coming to Australia in a couple of years.

Regards PhilipA

[cripesamighty]

Have always been curious to understand why EV’s take a big range hit when towing. They seem to be as inefficient when towing as a petrol engine.

Given the amount of low down torque an electric motor can produce, I would expect them to be more energy efficient when towing - i.e. perform more like a diesel than a petrol engine.

Makes you wonder if they suffer not having a gearbox to keep the motor at its most efficient operating point.



Robert Pepper covered this topic within the last year on a couple of his vids. Quite interesting to watch.

Top reasons why electric vehicles cannot tow long distances - explained - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Q3PKWXn1k)

EV vs diesel - tow test in detail! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnXH2lqW4Hg)

Electric vehicle vs diesel tow test - trailers and weights explained - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHhZdRYsvcY)

How viable is an EV 4x4? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7tjz9Othg)

[vnx205]

To put some perspective about this. Good EV's are a drag coefficient of .23. Some even .22. This is unprecedented. Any ICE car with a .2 in front is considered excellent.

A couple of decades ago (maybe 3 decades), one of the Toyotas, probably the Celica or maybe the Camry had a drag coefficient of 3.4 and that was considered quite remarkable at the time.

[DiscoDB]

Robert Pepper covered this topic within the last year on a couple of his vids. Quite interesting to watch.


It is a good explanation when comparing very aerodynamic models like the Tesla. But doesn’t fully explain why the F-150 Lightning takes a big hit when towing.

Pepper quotes the F-150 Lightning as having a Cd of 0.3 vs 0.45 for the ICE F-150, but modelling by Rivian claims the F-150 Lightning has a Cd of 0.44. (It is the Rivian R1T that has a claimed Cd of 0.3).

Rivian R1T Low Drag Coefficient Claims Analyzed In Virtual Wind Tunnel (https://insideevs.com/news/611642/rivian-r1t-aerodynamics-drag-coefficient-simulatiion/)

This also compares with modelling by AirShaper that showed the standard F-150 has a Cd of 0.463.

AirShaper did show that adding a flat floor will drop the Cd by around 3%, and better aerodynamic wheels another 2%, so the results are very consistent and supports Rivian’s claim that the F-150 Lightning has a Cd of 0.44.

AirShaper - Ford F150 Aerodynamics - How to add more than 10% range! - Video (https://airshaper.com/videos/ford-f150-aerodynamics-how-to-add-more-than-10-range/E0ass_AxloM)

So Peppers “drag unit” comparison for the F-150 was not correct. The difference is as little as 5% (0.44 vs 0.463) and not up to 50% as stated by Pepper when he makes his comparison for the F-150.

Probably suggests that for something like the F-150 Lightning the range impact when towing is really no different to the standard F-150 (i.e. both are equally bad ). The only real difference is the ICE can carry more fuel and is quicker to refuel.

Can’t wait to see what Ford do with the Ranger Lightning to allow a more meaningful like-for-like comparison to be made.

And bring on solid-state batteries - this will be the true game changer!

[Homestar]

Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise. [bigwhistle]

Yes cars are expensive - and not everyone can afford one. None the less, Australians buy like 1,000,000 cars a year typically. I'm pretty sure I've never implied or said that 5 million Australians should go out and buy an EV each year. All I've ever said was that if you really care about the environment don't drive. If you still consider you need and want to drive anyway - drive what you have. Lastly, if you need a new car consider an EV.

But if what I'm seeing in here is any guide, actually understanding them is still a really big barrier.

Last point, looking at the 1 million figure above, consider that we have on the road about 15 million cars in Australia. It's going to take a very long time for EV's to become a measurable portion of that 15 million. Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.

So you still think you’re saving the world by driving an EV huh?

Interesting…

[Tombie]

EV's more environmentally damaging than ICE is an opinion. Everyone has one. And wanting to sell me a new one in 5 years? Isn't that standard across the whole industry? And riding my arse for turning over cars quick ... the defender is 18 years old and the other car is 54. We only replaced the golf because the family had grown out of it, and it needed to have the gearbox removed every two years to replace the clutches..

And this is the reason why we have an ICE car and a EV. If we weren't a two car family the equation would be very different at this juncture. And I don't care if an EV won't work for you. But be empathetic. Don't assume that everyone has the same requirements as yourself.

But we are - so if I need to go a long way, tow something big or carry an awful lot I can drive the Defender. The chances of two drivers in this household needing that kind of capability at the same time.. it just doesn't happen. What I've got to weigh up is the defender costs at least $20 per hundred to the $3 for the EV.

As to the chargers, yes they were scarce but they are spreading quickly around SEQ. Trips that weren't possible 18 months ago are now lined with DC chargers. I do sometimes ride to a bike ride, or drive as race support. I look at Grafton to Inverell.. in 2022 I could not have done it in an EV. This year there are fast chargers in most of the towns. Could have easily been EVable. I support Grafton to Inverell too most years (bike races that start and finish in different places require a lot of help). Anyway it's about 400 k all up. I reckon I could nearly do it in one go, but worst case I just give it 15 minutes in Warwick at the QESH charger. It's even cheap too being roughly the same price as home.

PS - yes teslas were pretty slapped together in the early days, but mine is well built. It's as good as any new car I've bought and much better than some (especially the landrover). Most people with Chinese production are saying the same thing. Didn't see that coming.
PPS Drove out to the rail trail in BNE yesterday 135k out and back. Got home with over 70%. I can just put it on charge some time over the next few days when the sun is shining. Easy.

I'm not riding you for turning cars over, just stating the obvious - if 'we the people' buy less cars, less often and keep the ones going that we have - there will be a Nett Drop in emissions...

What I note is EV owners stating how things are getting better for them - more convenient, more chargers etc.. Whilst missing the fact that you could have purchased an ICE car of higher spec for the price, or a same spec ICE car and had enough money left over to run it for 15 years

[Tombie]

So you still think you’re saving the world by driving an EV huh?

Interesting…

Not even saving any money [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Most EV's are tiny? Where do you get that from?

The biggest selling EV's in Australia last month were the Tesla Model Y and the BYD ATTO 3. The BYD Atto 3 is a big car inside. Very spacious. So is the Model Y. Fun fact for you, and current Landrover defender 110 has a cargo capacity of 2271l with the seats down. A Tesla Model Y with the seats down is 2041. If you make cars with no engine etc it's amazing how much space they have.

And yes, an there aren't many second hand EV's because in terms of numbers the majority of them on Australian roads would be less than 2 years old. Remember last june 1% EV's and this june nearly 9%. It's going to take a many years until there is a good supply of them.

In the meantime enjoy a photo of my "tiny" MY, which was Australias second most sold car last month, with a full size gravel bike in with both wheels on and room to spare.

186157

Sure it appears to be the size of a medium sized car,i notice VFacts list them as an SUV,which seems a bit wierd.

The majority of the other Ev's are small vehicles.

With a family vehicle,the seats will be up,so that will reduce room considerably,as with any wagon.There are huge weight issues,as Tombie said,load in rear only 130KG,due to design?With 40KG underneath in another area.Not much fun there for a family holiday,with two or three kids.Then there is GVM to worry about.Roof loading is 75Kg,similar to D4(lowest in class),but still not bad.

Another fun fact don't go comparing Defender 110, with middle row seats up as it has the smallest rear load volume in the large wagon class[smilebigeye]

IMHO,a dual cab ute with canopy is still way more practical for a family,more room,can carry more weight,more versitile,etc,etc,and doesn't necessarily have to be 4WD,there are a number of 2WD models,some High Riders.Many are also considerably cheaper than a larger EV.No wonder they are a huge seller.

Then there are the larger wagons for those that want them or need the extra seats.

No one wants something that doesn't suit their needs,which is probably the reason you settled for the larger model,not the smaller.[smilebigeye]

As i have said before,i am not bashing EV's,they will suit some for sure,in fact there is a good chance once the van goes,an EV will suit us for around town use,as a second vehicle,but at the time we will have to weigh things up.By then there will be many more brands around.
Huge depreciation of EV's could also be an issue,but that problem will not rear it's head for a good few years.

[Homestar]

Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise.

Yes cars are expensive - and not everyone can afford one. None the less, Australians buy like 1,000,000 cars a year typically. I'm pretty sure I've never implied or said that 5 million Australians should go out and buy an EV each year. All I've ever said was that if you really care about the environment don't drive. If you still consider you need and want to drive anyway - drive what you have. Lastly,[B] if you need a new car consider an EV.

But if what I'm seeing in here is any guide, actually understanding them is still a really big barrier.

Last point, looking at the 1 million figure above, consider that we have on the road about 15 million cars in Australia. It's going to take a very long time for EV's to become a measurable portion of that 15 million. Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.

Why? I still haven't heard any compelling arguments as to their benefits - both financially and to the environment. If they cost more, don't pay back the equivalent in fuel over their lifetime and have environmental impacts we can't yet even begin to imagine - why are we diving headlong into this tech? New cars only account for 1/4 of all vehicle sales in Australia and businesses account for around 500,000 of those so in reality Australians are buying 500,000 new cars a year out of the 4,000,000 changing hands (3,000,000 p/a used change hands) - so only around 12.5%. And I would imagine it's the top 20% of earners buying those new cars as those below the average wage wouldn't have one on their shopping list - certainly not at the moment. Most people never buy a new car in their whole lives, so by the time thy can afford an ev - it will be a clapped out ****ter with stuffed batteries.

Just another way to kick the poor while they are down - but OEM's don't care about that, they just push the shiny marketing and sell the You'll save the planet' BS line to anyone with a fat enough wallet to listen.

[NavyDiver]

Why? I still haven't heard any compelling arguments as to their benefits - both financially and to the environment. If they cost more, don't pay back the equivalent in fuel over their lifetime and have environmental impacts we can't yet even begin to imagine - why are we diving headlong into this tech? New cars only account for 1/4 of all vehicle sales in Australia and businesses account for around 500,000 of those so in reality Australians are buying 500,000 new cars a year out of the 4,000,000 changing hands (3,000,000 p/a used change hands) - so only around 12.5%. And I would imagine it's the top 20% of earners buying those new cars as those below the average wage wouldn't have one on their shopping list - certainly not at the moment. Most people never buy a new car in their whole lives, so by the time thy can afford an ev - it will be a clapped out ****ter with stuffed batteries.

Just another way to kick the poor while they are down - but OEM's don't care about that, they just push the shiny marketing and sell the You'll save the planet' BS line to anyone with a fat enough wallet to listen.

Not arguing- Just a note Our NEW Land Rovers are not exactly on the shopping list for average wage earners I did want to buy a new D3 honestly [biggrin]

Tojo or Lexus $10,000 discount on EV caught my eye today "After its first electric SUV arrived in the US earlier this year, Lexus (https://electrek.co/guides/lexus/) is already offering a steep discount for you to get your hands on one. In some cases, you can earn up to $10,000 in lease cash on the 2023 Lexus RZ."

Lexus is offering up to $10,000 off its first electric SUV (https://electrek.co/2023/07/07/lexus-offering-up-to-10000-off-first-electric-suv/)

Price war OR getting rid of already redundant technology?

The cynic in me thinks the latter. The skeptic is wondering as well if the solid state announcement last week may do what I suspect solid state will do[bigwhistle]

The mass production has yet to really start in this area. The "GIGA factories" popping up everywhere will do a Ford model T ford like impact I think. perhaps, maybe or not of course[thumbsupbig]

My not favorite twitter owner other company has " [B]5 Tesla Gigafactories on 3 continents. The original factory is in Fremont, California, constructed before Musk coined the term Gigafactory. There are Tesla Gigafactories in Nevada, New York, Shanghai, Texas, and Berlin, plus one under construction in Mexico"

I brought up Ford as "Ford's innovation lay in his use of mass production to manufacture automobiles. He revolutionized industrial work by perfecting the assembly line, which enabled him to lower the Model T's price from $850 in 1908 to $300 in 1924, making car ownership a real possibility for a large share of the population"

Significant computerization, automation and more at 'scale' offers a much faster time frame than Mr Henry Fords innovations? I may be wrong of course.

I did chat with a Lexus RZ 450e owner on the Hume Highway last year. It was from Albury wodonga first longer drive by a dealer I think
Not for me Overview | Lexus (https://www.lexus.com.au/models/rz/overview)

[JDNSW]

Actually, Henry Ford's success was because he was the first to envision a car as something an average middle class worker could own, rather than the wealthy that all previous ones were aimed at. And from there the demand enabled him to mass produce the car. Which in turn led to more sales and lower costs. But he also introduced a number of innovations that added to the success, including routine use of high alloy steels to reduce weight, and mail order parts delivery.

[Homestar]

Not arguing- Just a note Our NEW Land Rovers are not exactly on the shopping list for average wage earners I did want to buy a new D3 honestly [biggrin]

Tojo or Lexus $10,000 discount on EV caught my eye today "After its first electric SUV arrived in the US earlier this year, Lexus (https://electrek.co/guides/lexus/) is already offering a steep discount for you to get your hands on one. In some cases, you can earn up to $10,000 in lease cash on the 2023 Lexus RZ."

Lexus is offering up to $10,000 off its first electric SUV (https://electrek.co/2023/07/07/lexus-offering-up-to-10000-off-first-electric-suv/)

Price war OR getting rid of already redundant technology?

The cynic in me thinks the latter. The skeptic is wondering as well if the solid state announcement last week may do what I suspect solid state will do[bigwhistle]

The mass production has yet to really start in this area. The "GIGA factories" popping up everywhere will do a Ford model T ford like impact I think. perhaps, maybe or not of course[thumbsupbig]

My not favorite twitter owner other company has " [B]5 Tesla Gigafactories on 3 continents. The original factory is in Fremont, California, constructed before Musk coined the term Gigafactory. There are Tesla Gigafactories in Nevada, New York, Shanghai, Texas, and Berlin, plus one under construction in Mexico"

I brought up Ford as "Ford's innovation lay in his use of mass production to manufacture automobiles. He revolutionized industrial work by perfecting the assembly line, which enabled him to lower the Model T's price from $850 in 1908 to $300 in 1924, making car ownership a real possibility for a large share of the population"

Significant computerization, automation and more at 'scale' offers a much faster time frame than Mr Henry Fords innovations? I may be wrong of course.

I did chat with a Lexus RZ 450e owner on the Hume Highway last year. It was from Albury wodonga first longer drive by a dealer I think
Not for me Overview | Lexus (https://www.lexus.com.au/models/rz/overview)

My newest Land Rover is 37 years old and the oldest is 48 years old. I have no want or desire to own any Land Rover that's been built in the last 10 plus years.

Come to think of it I can't seem to think of ANY current brand and model of car I'd go and buy new if I had the money to be honest - ICE or EV, they just don't do it for me. Maybe a Grenadier if they pan out ok in the real world - which is still half on my shopping list when I sell a few more Land Rovers (That are all still increasing in Value...)

I don't see how giga factories are going to help when the raw products are not plentiful enough to supply them - this is only causing the price of batteries to go up, not down like lots seem to claim.

I do indeed hold out hope that super capacitors will start to offer something different to Lithium batteries because I just don't see them becoming cheap enough quickly enough if at all.

Interesting about the 10K discount - if they weren't either out of date or sitting around rotting, I'm sure this wouldn't be offered. [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm not riding you for turning cars over, just stating the obvious - if 'we the people' buy less cars, less often and keep the ones going that we have - there will be a Nett Drop in emissions...

What I note is EV owners stating how things are getting better for them - more convenient, more chargers etc.. Whilst missing the fact that you could have purchased an ICE car of higher spec for the price, or a same spec ICE car and had enough money left over to run it for 15 years
No - no I couldn't. I know this will be a hot topic but with the novated leasing exemption on FBT I certainly couldn't have bought something equivalent for the same money. I don't believe I could have bought another Golf for less.

Now before anyone even thinks of going on a tangent, the Aussie government has been sponsoring the purchasing of Diesel utes for years now.

I needed another car. We are a family with three drivers. We needed another car because no-one wants to drive the defender for little trips around town (and it's bad for it). The only reason three cars and one car is viable is because I ride to most things so hardly use the car myself.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

A couple of decades ago (maybe 3 decades), one of the Toyotas, probably the Celica or maybe the Camry had a drag coefficient of 3.4 and that was considered quite remarkable at the time.
.34 is nearly twice again .22. It's ** really ** hard to get below .3 if you have a ICE car. The problem is not the top of the car - it's all the mechanicals underneath hanging down in the air.

The Lotus Elite from 1959 was ground breaking at the time. It was said to have a cd of .29. They enclosed basically all the mechanicals up into the fiberglass body. It allowed them to go uncommonly fast with a 1100cc fire pump engine.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So you still think you’re saving the world by driving an EV huh?

Interesting…
Aaaah.. no. Show me where I've said that? I've said over and over - if you want to save the world don't drive. If you want to drive anyway, drive what you have. If you need a new car consider an EV.

I needed a replacement car because our family city car needed clutches replacing every 25k at vast cost (go VW). I thought it was a silly idea to buy a new ICE car at the moment given an EV will do everything we need. It's a month and a half old now and it's never needed charging outside of the house.

From an emissions standpoint I do believe that over the life of the car an EV will be substantially better though.

Other advantages.. despite what people in here might think - they are very nice to drive, and are very low in operating costs.

[p38arover]

Interesting videos on EV depreciation in the UK. I note how he claims most drivers have them on a 3 year lease.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqYI_vLYDk0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfrwsQHjym0

[scarry]

If you need a new car consider an EV.

I can't really see any reason not to,if it suits your needs,and is the sort of money that you want to part with for a vehicle.

The key words are NEW,and SUITS YOUR NEEDS,and WITHIN YOUR BUDGET.This would be taken into consideration during the purchase of any new vehicle i would presume.

Sure it may lose range over time,lose value more than an equivalent ICE vehicle,more difficult to "fill up" when out and about,and on it goes.It may not.

Whether an EV actually helps save the world, who knows?Whether that consideration comes into the buying equation,is up to the individual.

EV's are just another form of transport,nothing else.

Let people buy what they want,and what suits their needs.

[NavyDiver]

Interesting videos on EV depreciation in the UK. I note how he claims most drivers have them on a 3 year lease.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqYI_vLYDk0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfrwsQHjym0


"IF" VW is not all EV with solid state in a few years some of my money is stuffed[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Not really a problem as other bits seem safe to me.

Never owned a VW myself. The Bettles and Kombi vans seem a bit hippy for me[bigwhistle] The ones I have been in seem solid and well built. Passat and Golf family have had seemed very well regarded. "

Almost 70 new electric models by 2028 – instead of the 50 previously planned
Comprehensive decarbonization program for the Volkswagen Group signed off
Volkswagen Group targeting fully CO 2 -neutral balance by 2050

"

That is their goals. Using my or others' views on that is really irrelevant. I know or understand VW invested hundreds of millions in Solid state batteries and is likely to have them in cars by 2025

Always know what I know can be mistaken of course. My wait and see may be Landrover perhaps[bigwhistle] Not really as car manufactures are almost irrelevant to what is a much bigger change happening already perhaps? Megatrends are opportunities or problems.

[Arapiles]

So, I'm up home at the moment and went for a walk last night. There's a Tesla charge station here and then about a k away a set of RACV chargers. There was only one EV charging at either facility - and it was a Tesla using the RACV chargers. Can anyone explain why? Are the RACV fast chargers faster than Tesla's own chargers?

[Homestar]

"IF" VW is not all EV with solid state in a few years some of my money is stuffed[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Not really a problem as other bits seem safe to me.

Never owned a VW myself. The Bettles and Kombi vans seem a bit hippy for me[bigwhistle] The ones I have been in seem solid and well built. Passat and Golf family have had seemed very well regarded. "

Almost 70 new electric models by 2028 – instead of the 50 previously planned
Comprehensive decarbonization program for the Volkswagen Group signed off
Volkswagen Group targeting fully CO 2 -neutral balance by 2050

"

That is their goals. Using my or others' views on that is really irrelevant. I know or understand VW invested hundreds of millions in Solid state batteries and is likely to have them in cars by 2025

Always know what I know can be mistaken of course. My wait and see may be Landrover perhaps[bigwhistle] Not really as car manufactures are almost irrelevant to what is a much bigger change happening already perhaps? Megatrends are opportunities or problems.

VW’s are bloody aweful IMO and rank highly amongst the most problematic brands - along with Land Rovers mind you so we probably should chuck too many rocks. [emoji56]

[Homestar]

So, I'm up home at the moment and went for a walk last night. There's a Tesla charge station here and then about a k away a set of RACV chargers. There was only one EV charging at either facility - and it was a Tesla using the RACV chargers. Can anyone explain why? Are the RACV fast chargers faster than Tesla's own chargers?

RACV members get a 20% discount on their charging, so I’m guessing price related. Same as shopping around for your petrol. [emoji106]

[Homestar]

Aaaah.. no. Show me where I've said that?

So what are you eluding to here?


Every time an ICE car is sold, it's emissions are baked in for 10 or 15 years. That's why it's good news that the EV slice of the new car market is expanding probably more quickly than most expected.


I can't tell if you're joking or not but You know only 20% of Australians earn above the average wage right?

Half of them earn above the average wage. I promise. [bigwhistle]






I needed a replacement car because our family city car needed clutches replacing every 25k at vast cost (go VW). I thought it was a silly idea to buy a new ICE car at the moment given an EV will do everything we need. It's a month and a half old now and it's never needed charging outside of the house.

Very good idea ditching the VW - no car should need a new clutch after 25KKM no matter what it is, type of transmission etc - I would say that's a straight out design flaw but that doesn't surprise me at all with VW. Glad your new car suits your needs, I really am and you are an ideal candidate for an EV if you are lucky enough to be able to charge it at home - it's one of the biggest sticking points for so many - especially in the City - on street parking precludes this option.

[JDNSW]

.34 is nearly twice again .22. It's ** really ** hard to get below .3 if you have a ICE car. The problem is not the top of the car - it's all the mechanicals underneath hanging down in the air.

The Lotus Elite from 1959 was ground breaking at the time. It was said to have a cd of .29. They enclosed basically all the mechanicals up into the fiberglass body. It allowed them to go uncommonly fast with a 1100cc fire pump engine.

And in 1955 Citroen was, from memory, 0.34 - and this was what it remained actually on the road and at all loads, not just in the wind tunnel, thanks to self levelling remaining at the same attitude, with the smooth underbody broken only by the exhaust pipes, with the muffler recessed into the body, and the exits for engine and brake cooling air, which were designed to support rather than break up the airflow under the vehicle. Changes to the nose in 1967 improved this further.

It is not necessary to have mechanicals hanging down in an ICE vehicle - just convenient for manufacturing (and repairs!).

[scarry]

It is not necessary to have mechanicals hanging down in an ICE vehicle - just convenient for manufacturing (and repairs!).

Many modern vehicles have an under tray to reduce drag.Usually made of pieces of plastic and a pain to get off for repairs and servicing,although helpful manufacturers leave access panels to get to components such as oil filters,sump plugs etc.Or sometimes have a small rubber section to make it easier to get to the components.

[JDNSW]

Many modern vehicles have an under tray to reduce drag.Usually made of pieces of plastic and a pain to get off for repairs and servicing,although helpful manufacturers leave access panels to get to components such as oil filters,sump plugs etc.Or sometimes have a small rubber section to make it easier to get to the components.

Yes - but I was pointing out that this was actually achieved in 1955 - it is not new or particularly modern. (And was combined with other "modern" features such as controlled collapse rate ends, dual braking system, inboard front discs, collapsible steering column etc.

[NavyDiver]

This is funny

"
The Rolls-Royce Spectre is the British car brand’s first-ever series-production electric vehicle, and the Goodwood-based firm has received more orders than expected, which led to some pretty long waiting times for buyers.Back in May, we reported that Rolls-Royce (https://insideevs.com/rolls-royce/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) was expecting delivery times in excess of 15 months for its not-a-Wraith EV successor (https://insideevs.com/news/668285/rolls-royce-spectre-2025-delivery-ceo-interview-exclusive/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed), which probably made some impatient and very wealthy people start looking elsewhere for their zero-emissions luxury coupe.However, Rolls-Royce CEO Torsten Muller-Otvos wants to make it very clear that the Spectre (https://insideevs.com/rolls-royce/spectre/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) will be very hard to buy from anywhere but an official showroom, threatening to ban customers from ever purchasing a Rolls-Royce-branded vehicle if they sell their car for a profit to a used car dealership.
The news comes via CarDealerMagazine.co.uk, which writes that any attempts to cash in on the hugely popular new EV will result in clients being blacklisted.
"

An Italian stallion brand has done a similar thing[bigwhistle]

https://www.rolls-roycemotorcars.com/en_GB/showroom/spectre.html

[p38arover]

So what are you eluding to here?

Are you alluding to him having eluded something?

[p38arover]

Yes - but I was pointing out that this was actually achieved in 1955 - it is not new or particularly modern. (And was combined with other "modern" features such as controlled collapse rate ends, dual braking system, inboard front discs, collapsible steering column etc.

Bloody Citroen! [biggrin]

[Homestar]

Are you alluding to him having eluded something?

Thanks. When I typed it I thought it looked wrong, but it was first thing this morning and I hadn't had coffee yet so let it go. [biggrin]

[Arapiles]

Very good idea ditching the VW - no car should need a new clutch after 25KKM no matter what it is, type of transmission etc - I would say that's a straight out design flaw but that doesn't surprise me at all with VW.

A mate has a BMW M2, cost him around $90k and it's less than 2 years old. It's just had the clutch replaced under warranty due to shuddering .....

[Arapiles]

RACV members get a 20% discount on their charging, so I’m guessing price related. Same as shopping around for your petrol. [emoji106]

Makes sense I guess, but bloody annoying for any non-Tesla EV drivers since they can't charge at the Tesla chargers that aren't being used whilst a Tesla was using one of the three non-Tesla chargers in town.

[NavyDiver]

Makes sense I guess, but bloody annoying for any non-Tesla EV drivers since they can't charge at the Tesla chargers that aren't being used whilst a Tesla was using one of the three non-Tesla chargers in town.

Honestly a PITA that one!

On a brighter note US based range test at 70mph (112kph) gave better than expected results for me. Other note is MG may not be in the US? Trade war thing perhaps? Checking it seem MG is Not planning to try to sell in the US. reasoning not given but may be assumed. BYD has ev busses but not the cars. Bus - BYD USA (https://en.byd.com/bus/)
(the USA BYD ev buses are from byd lancaster ca 2009 ish)

Back to the speed range test. Still no van or boat towing 4wd disco replacement with my range option wanted[bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm] Solid state and FCEV will be via BMW in a few years - Still watching Landrover closely.

The 800km (500mile) Lucid air a bit of a tank due to the huge batteries almost 3 tons of car!


What's The Real World Highway Range Of Today's Electric Cars? We Test To Find Out (https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/)

[PhilipA]

EVs Are Piling Up on Dealer Lots as Supply Outpaces Demand (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/evs-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots-as-supply-outpaces-demand)
Another brick in the wall.
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

EVs Are Piling Up on Dealer Lots as Supply Outpaces Demand (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/evs-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots-as-supply-outpaces-demand)
Another brick in the wall.
Regards PhilipA

Yet in Aus,they can't get enough Teslas.

I have driven past the Tesla yard on the Gold Coast almost every day for the last six weeks,and it is generally empty,while the other new car yards on the same road,are full.

[Homestar]

Not really surprising this is happing in 'Murica. Home of the free, land of cheap petrol and V8's. I would imagine they are even more resistant to the idea of EV's than I am.

[DiscoDB]

EVs Are Piling Up on Dealer Lots as Supply Outpaces Demand (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/evs-are-piling-up-on-dealer-lots-as-supply-outpaces-demand)
Another brick in the wall.
Regards PhilipA

Not just EV’s - inventory levels for all vehicles have been on the increase in the US since the lows of 2021/2022. Many brands are reported to be returning to pre-pandemic levels.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/79335852a44087482fdb161e75e450c1.jpg

Toyota, Kia, and Land Rover days inventory remains the lowest in the US. But if you want a Jeep or Buick there are apparently plenty sitting on dealer lots waiting to find a new home!

And the top selling pick-up trucks like the F-150 and RAM 1500 are apparently back above 100 days inventory. Good times in the US for buyers!

New-Vehicle Inventory Hits Two-Year High in May, Average Listing Price Dips - Cox Automotive Inc. (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/new-vehicle-inventory-may-2023/)

It should be noted that days inventory includes both vehicles sitting on dealer lots, as well as those in transit for delivery to owners.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

VW’s are bloody aweful IMO and rank highly amongst the most problematic brands - along with Land Rovers mind you so we probably should chuck too many rocks. [emoji56]

So I've owned two VW's now. Both have be absolute jewels of cars. Beautiful to drive and stunningly finished.

But.. both had design issues. The Audi a3 (a golf in drag) kept destroying waterpumps. Every 20-30k. A-maz-ing. The Golf which we did 60k in, also managed to throw a water pump, and was on it's third set of clutches. I looked at the service lady, and said "Can you guarantee this won't happen again in two years". And she just shook her head.

So, in both cases they just had design issues. It appears the VW way is to just keep fitting the same parts and hope the owners get sick of it and flick the car. Just enough to stop them being sued.

Go to repco.com.au and search for golf. Have a page of rubbish and 2.5 pages of clutch replacements.

Anyway they launched their EV's in europe and the US and they have had a number of issues. And now they can't sell their EV's. Demand is drying up. I'd go with eventually you run out of new blood who are prepared to roll the dice..

VW electric car sales "fall to zero" as Tesla and China EV makers win price war (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/12/vw-electric-car-sales-fall-to-zero-as-tesla-and-china-ev-makers-win-price-war/)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So after a month and a half and 2500k or so, we have never had to charge out of the home. We just pop it on when the sun is out and give it a top up. Easy as. Occasionally we've wanted a full battery and had to charge over night. Ooops. Little bit of coal power in there. I have put a "splash" in at a couple of fast chargers to see if I could get it to work and all seemed easy enough.

Anyway I found out today from someone on my floor who's getting an EV that wall chargers which aren't in secure locations are hot property in Brisbane apparently. The thieves just look for parked EV's and come back and nick the chargers. I did not know this.

[DiscoDB]

Anyway they launched their EV's in europe and the US and they have had a number of issues. And now they can't sell their EV's. Demand is drying up. I'd go with eventually you run out of new blood who are prepared to roll the dice..

VW electric car sales "fall to zero" as Tesla and China EV makers win price war (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/12/vw-electric-car-sales-fall-to-zero-as-tesla-and-china-ev-makers-win-price-war/)

Not according to VW (except for sales in China which did take a hit):

Volkswagen Group delivers 42 percent more all-electric vehicles in the first quarter | Volkswagen Newsroom (https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-group-delivers-42-percent-more-all-electric-vehicles-in-the-first-quarter-15779)

Q1 is historically a low quarter for VW for new sales and deliveries, but is still up year-on-year:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/55a8a452dd57d4e0a969003480fae3f4.jpg

The real story for 2022 and continues into 2023 is BYD have overtaken VW to claim 2nd spot for global BEV sales and is closing the gap to Tesla.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/23c159b55d9c1d88ed2a6be81e6c950b.jpg

[4bee]

So I've owned two VW's now. Both have be absolute jewels of cars. Beautiful to drive and stunningly finished.

But.. both had design issues. The Audi a3 (a golf in drag) kept destroying waterpumps. Every 20-30k. A-maz-ing. The Golf which we did 60k in, also managed to throw a water pump, and was on it's third set of clutches. I looked at the service lady, and said "Can you guarantee this won't happen again in two years". And she just shook her head.

So, in both cases they just had design issues. It appears the VW way is to just keep fitting the same parts and hope the owners get sick of it and flick the car. Just enough to stop them being sued.

Go to repco.com.au and search for golf. Have a page of rubbish and 2.5 pages of clutch replacements.

Anyway they launched their EV's in europe and the US and they have had a number of issues. And now they can't sell their EV's. Demand is drying up. I'd go with eventually you run out of new blood who are prepared to roll the dice..

VW electric car sales "fall to zero" as Tesla and China EV makers win price war (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/12/vw-electric-car-sales-fall-to-zero-as-tesla-and-china-ev-makers-win-price-war/)




Apparently SKODA are owned by VW so I wonder if they are beset by the same problems

[scarry]

Anyway I found out today from someone on my floor who's getting an EV that wall chargers which aren't in secure locations are hot property in Brisbane apparently. The thieves just look for parked EV's and come back and nick the chargers. I did not know this.

That is the Aussie thieves catching up.

Overseas,particularly Europe,this has been going on ever since public chargers arrived on the scene.

They are usually stolen for the copper,that ends up in the scrap yards.

FWIW,i have a cousin that lives in London,he also said they continually steal lead from roofs as well.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That is the Aussie thieves catching up.

Overseas,particularly Europe,this has been going on ever since public chargers arrived on the scene.

They are usually stolen for the copper,that ends up in the scrap yards.

FWIW,i have a cousin that lives in London,he also said they continually steal lead from roofs as well.

Now that makes sense.. I was thinking "Who would bother destructively removing a charger". But the charge cable is heavy so must have a bucket load of copper. They probably just chop the cable off.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Not according to VW (except for sales in China which did take a hit):

Volkswagen Group delivers 42 percent more all-electric vehicles in the first quarter | Volkswagen Newsroom (https://www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/volkswagen-group-delivers-42-percent-more-all-electric-vehicles-in-the-first-quarter-15779)

Q1 is historically a low quarter for VW for new sales and deliveries:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/55a8a452dd57d4e0a969003480fae3f4.jpg

The real story for 2022 and continues into 2023 is BYD have overtaken VW to claim 2nd spot for global BEV sales and is closing the gap to Tesla.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230712/23c159b55d9c1d88ed2a6be81e6c950b.jpg

I don't understand. They are now saying they are going to shut the factory for at least six weeks. Maybe this has happened since the article you linked was April?

Volkswagen parks EV production following downturn in demand - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volkswagen-parks-ev-production-following-downturn-in-demand-141468/)

Reports out of Europe claim EV manufacturing operations at VW’s Emden plant will be halted for at least six weeks in response to the reduced demand, resulting in the axing of 300 temporary positions.
The German car-maker says current demand for EVs (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volkswagen-to-sell-more-evs-than-ice-vehicles-in-australia-within-five-years-138798/) in Europe is down 30 per cent on its internal forecasts. carsales’ own recent EV intender survey showed a 12 per drop in the number of Australian consumers considering an EV.

[Homestar]

Apparently SKODA are owned by VW so I wonder if they are beset by the same problems

Short answer - yes they are.

[DiscoDB]

I don't understand. They are now saying they are going to shut the factory for at least six weeks. Maybe this has happened since the article you linked was April?

Volkswagen parks EV production following downturn in demand - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volkswagen-parks-ev-production-following-downturn-in-demand-141468/)

Reports out of Europe claim EV manufacturing operations at VW’s Emden plant will be halted for at least six weeks in response to the reduced demand, resulting in the axing of 300 temporary positions.
The German car-maker says current demand for EVs (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volkswagen-to-sell-more-evs-than-ice-vehicles-in-australia-within-five-years-138798/) in Europe is down 30 per cent on its internal forecasts. carsales’ own recent EV intender survey showed a 12 per drop in the number of Australian consumers considering an EV.

The key point is “down on it’s internal forecasts”.

That is they over estimated how many to produce and consumers are starting to prepare for a global recession as interest rates and inflation starts to hit the global economy.

The post-pandemic spending sugar hit is over (well for VW anyway).

But I wouldn’t call dropping an extra shift over summer and letting go of 300 temporary staff (from a workforce of almost 700,000) a crisis for a company the size of VW - but I guess that is how the media works.

Early data is still showing Q2 sales for BEV’s will hit record new highs despite VW’s forecasting kerfuffle.

[4bee]

A place to connect the bike rack [emoji23][emoji23]



&/or the trailer mounted Genny.

[4bee]

That is the Aussie thieves catching up.

Overseas,particularly Europe,this has been going on ever since public chargers arrived on the scene.

They are usually stolen for the copper,that ends up in the scrap yards.

FWIW,i have a cousin that lives in London,he also said they continually steal lead from roofs as well.

Churches as well, Pagan bastards or Gypsies.

[4bee]

I don't understand. They are now saying they are going to shut the factory for at least six weeks. Maybe this has happened since the article you linked was April?

Volkswagen parks EV production following downturn in demand - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volkswagen-parks-ev-production-following-downturn-in-demand-141468/)

Reports out of Europe claim EV manufacturing operations at VW’s Emden plant will be halted for at least six weeks in response to the reduced demand, resulting in the axing of 300 temporary positions.
The German car-maker says current demand for EVs (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/volkswagen-to-sell-more-evs-than-ice-vehicles-in-australia-within-five-years-138798/) in Europe is down 30 per cent on its internal forecasts. carsales’ own recent EV intender survey showed a 12 per drop in the number of Australian consumers considering an EV.


IMHO it was bound to happen when everyone believed the days of the ICE were finished.

There will be many more too.

[scarry]

IMHO it was bound to happen when everyone believed the days of the ICE were finished.

There will be many more too.

Jaguar's chest beating move to be all electric by 2025 should do wonders to it's already poor sales[bigrolf]

[PhilipA]

We're Entering the Chasm in the EV Adoption Curve | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/were-finally-crossing-the-chasm-with-electric-vehicles)

I think I stated the adoption curve some time ago.
It is true of many new models of ICE cars that there is an "early Adopters" period where the buyers will buy what they can get.
This can last for 6 months to a year depending on the popularity of the brand and car makers take advantage of it by producing a "rich mix".
In Ford Australia's case that meant building lots of Fairmonts and whatever . Now it means they will build lots of Titanium Everests.
Once the early adopters are satisfied, the average Joe starts to buy, and they buy far cheaper models than those at first, and actually look at the utility of what they want rather than what it does for their ego..
I confidently predict that this will also happen with EVs.
The mix of models will lean out greatly.
This is bad news for Tesla , as evidenced by their constant price reductions which discriminate against early adopters as their resale suffers enormously. No carmakers likes to reduce prices of current models for this reason, hence the proliferation of s"white hot specials with added content.
Just a few thoughts.
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

We're Entering the Chasm in the EV Adoption Curve | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/were-finally-crossing-the-chasm-with-electric-vehicles)

I think I stated the adoption curve some time ago.
It is true of many new models of ICE cars that there is an "early Adopters" period where the buyers will buy what they can get.
This can last for 6 months to a year depending on the popularity of the brand and car makers take advantage of it by producing a "rich mix".
In Ford Australia's case that meant building lots of Fairmonts and whatever . Now it means they will build lots of Titanium Everests.
Once the early adopters are satisfied, the average Joe starts to buy, and they buy far cheaper models than those at first, and actually look at the utility of what they want rather than what it does for their ego..
I confidently predict that this will also happen with EVs.
The mix of models will lean out greatly.
This is bad news for Tesla , as evidenced by their constant price reductions which discriminate against early adopters as their resale suffers enormously. No carmakers likes to reduce prices of current models for this reason, hence the proliferation of s"white hot specials with added content.
Just a few thoughts.
Regards PhilipA
Don't read Tesla price cuts like that. They are a disruptor.

In the 12 months since Tesla introduced the model Y, it's had 5 price changes. It's just what they do. Anyone who buys one should expect this.

All they are doing with pricing is ensuring that they have adequate demand to soak up incoming production.

What you might wish to consider is how it's affecting the whole marketplace, not just owners of Teslas. Other manufacturers are now cutting prices. You can expect the manufacturers who haven't yet cut prices to confront the choice. They can either not sell EV's or they can cut their prices.

When nearly 9% of the market is made up of EV's - this is affecting the sales of ICE cars too. So you can expect Teslas cuts to flow onto ICE cars as well.

This is a good thing for the market.

MG slashes price of long range version of ZS EV as electric car price war intensifies (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/13/mg-slashes-price-of-long-range-version-of-zs-ev-as-electric-car-price-war-intensifies/)

GWM slashes price of Ora electric car below $40,000 as battery costs fall (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/gwm-slashes-price-of-ora-electric-car-below-40000-as-battery-costs-fall/)

[Homestar]

GWM slashes price of Ora electric car below $40,000 as battery costs fall (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/gwm-slashes-price-of-ora-electric-car-below-40000-as-battery-costs-fall/)

Wow - $40K for that bucket of ****.... And don't get me started on how bad the Dolphin is for around the same price. Both of these make the MG4 look good - which is bloody hard to do given how bad that is.

I thought Teslas were badly built, but this bunch make them look like a Rolls Royce - which they are far from.

It's certainly a race to the bottom on quality and mediocrity that's for sure.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Wow - $40K for that bucket of ****.... And don't get me started on how bad the Dolphin is for around the same price. Both of these make the MG4 look good - which is bloody hard to do given how bad that is.

I thought Teslas were badly built, but this bunch make them look like a Rolls Royce - which they are far from.

It's certainly a race to the bottom on quality and mediocrity that's for sure.
I'll confess I haven't really had much to do with the early Teslas. I have heard many reports of poor build quality.

However mine is so far well built. Like a month and a half into ownership and I've got not a cracker to complain about. Let's hope it keeps up. [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

Wow - $40K for that bucket of ****.... And don't get me started on how bad the Dolphin is for around the same price. Both of these make the MG4 look good - which is bloody hard to do given how bad that is.

I thought Teslas were badly built, but this bunch make them look like a Rolls Royce - which they are far from.

It's certainly a race to the bottom on quality and mediocrity that's for sure.

Both my side mirrors are being replaced. Motor which folds them seem to be a bit wonky. Fourth time today it was back to the dealer. All prior time a software reset fixed them for a while.

MG4 arrive here next month - booked a test drive. I had put a deposit on either a long range MG3ev or a EV4. Have you seen or heard of issues with them? ( Not a issue for me as not updating now a three new fast charge options makes my usual run a lot easier next time I go. Perhaps next week I hope.

Have to add my LADA UTE was built like crap. MG seems a little more refined and easily as good a ford futura prior to my Disco's which make everything look average. [biggrin]

Not really up on the masses of BYDs popping up here.

[scarry]

I'll confess I haven't really had much to do with the early Teslas. I have heard many reports of poor build quality.

However mine is so far well built. Like a month and a half into ownership and I've got not a cracker to complain about. Let's hope it keeps up. [bigwhistle]

Sounds better than every new Land Rover i have ever had..:Rolling:

[NavyDiver]

Sounds better than every new Land Rover i have ever had..:Rolling:

SHHH We love our Land Rovers [biggrin][biggrin]

"The all-electric hot hatch concept pays homage to the Metro 6R4 Group B rally car of the early 1980s.British-based, Chinese-owned MG Motor has revealed the EX4 all-electric hot hatch concept in a short Twitter video posted yesterday, ahead of the car’s official debut at this weekend’s Goodwood Festival of Speed.
The over-the-top hatchback is based on the road-going MG4 XPower (https://insideevs.com/news/675246/2023-mg4-ev-xpower-previewed-429-hp-awd-electric-hot-hatch/), which is powered by a dual-motor setup making 429 horsepower and up to 442 pound-feet (600 Newton-meters) of torque. The SAIC-owned automaker didn’t reveal the concept car’s specs, but it did say that both the street-legal MG4 XPower and the upcoming Cyberster electric roadster (https://insideevs.com/news/667138/mg-cyberster-55000-in-uk/) will be present at Goodwood, next to the radically styled, rally-inspired EV."

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1dO5kv.img?w=534&h=300&m=6


I found some very good news from Bosch

BERLIN (Reuters) - German auto supplier Bosch will invest almost 2.5 billion euros ($2.8 billion) in hydrogen fuel cell technology from 2021 to 2026 and expects to generate roughly 5 billion in sales from it by 2030, the company said on Thursday.
The planned investment was one billion euros more than earmarked in its previous investment plan for 2021-2024, the statement added.
Vehicles with hydrogen fuel cells, in which hydrogen mixes with oxygen to produce water and energy to power a battery, can refuel in minutes and have a much longer range than battery-electric vehicles, but infrastructure is lacking and it is less energy-efficient.
Bosch expects one in five new trucks weighing six metric tons or more would feature fuel-cell powertrains by 2030, it said.

that may be a LOT of trucks?

[PhilipA]

Lack Of Repair Data For Damaged EV Batteries Leading To Higher Insurance Costs (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/lack-of-repair-data-for-damaged-ev-batteries-leading-to-higher-insurance-costs/ar-AA1dLKq9?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=44b3a325c21342ab810e27a76a5e8cd5&ei=23)
This is from MSN news and is quoting a study from UK on Insurance costs for Evs.
Regards PhilipA

[Narangga]

8/2/23 Now let the wait begin... [bigsad]

A tad over 5 months.186225186226

[NavyDiver]

This is from MSN news and is quoting a study from UK on Insurance costs for Evs.
Regards PhilipA

Insurance is important. My 2009 year Disco is now in new hand. Insurance cost is shown RACV $1996.63

MG EV payment is a bit scewed as I have elected a large excess is I do something stupid [biggrin] It is $960.99

My sons Kia thing under 25 year old extra? $1592.33 it is newer than the EV.

The tesla is paid by some one else [thumbsupbig]

With the MG new car price costing 10K more than the Kia I suppose my driving record helps a lot? The Disco service and insurance price was one of the reasons I sold it. Cause and effect can vary from person to person of course!

[Homestar]

Just had a look at insurance prices for a model Y - Around $1,800 pa. If you say you have the ‘advanced driver assist’ or ‘full self driving’ options it came up saying ‘Sorry but we cannot offer you insurance at this time’

So that’s the insurance companies way of dealing with that tech at the moment - go it alone or don’t have it.

[scarry]

Insurance is important. My 2009 year Disco is now in new hand. Insurance cost is shown RACV [COLOR=#444444][FONT=suisseintl-regular]$1996.63

With the MG new car price costing 10K more than the Kia I suppose my driving record helps a lot? The Disco service and insurance price was one of the reasons I sold it. Cause and effect can vary from person to person of course!

Interestingly a new VX LC200,8 yrs newer than our D4 was $600.00 less to insure,same policy,same company.Shopping around had similar results.
Yet the value of the LC, was well over 3.5 times the older vehicle.

[Tombie]

Interestingly a new VX LC200,8 yrs newer than our D4 was $600.00 less to insure,same policy,same company.Shopping around had similar results.
Yet the value of the LC, was well over 3.5 times the older vehicle.

Yep, parts are cheaper and they write them off easier when younger as they can get the cash back easier.

As vehicles age in the more complex units it often goes up.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

When I rang around for the Tesla insurance - some companies clearly didn't want anything to do with it. We also have a P plater in the house which might have been a factor. Others were totally fine with it. NRMA and Alliance were stand outs. We're paying the same for the Tesla as we were for the golf.

I will say having driven it - the anti collision stuff is pretty clever. It will beep furiously if it thinks you might crash.. if it's convinced you really are going to crash it will thump the brakes on. :o You would think that would make for less crashes over all.

[350RRC]

When I rang around for the Tesla insurance - some companies clearly didn't want anything to do with it. We also have a P plater in the house which might have been a factor. Others were totally fine with it. NRMA and Alliance were stand outs. We're paying the same for the Tesla as we were for the golf.

I will say having driven it - the anti collision stuff is pretty clever. It will beep furiously if it thinks you might crash.. if it's convinced you really are going to crash it will thump the brakes on. :o You would think that would make for less crashes over all.

Drove a mate's newish Isuzu ute on the Border Track last April with the same 'feature'.

The constant 'bonging' every time it sensed a bush was a real downside and then the one time it jammed the brakes on was a real WTF moment............... could have had consequences.

DL

[Homestar]

Drove a mate's newish Isuzu ute on the Border Track last April with the same 'feature'.

The constant 'bonging' every time it sensed a bush was a real downside and then the one time it jammed the brakes on was a real WTF moment............... could have had consequences.

DL

They’ve put a single push button on the latest model that turns all that off easily. Still I’m not looking forward to all the bings and bongs my new Dmax will have.

[350RRC]

They’ve put a single push button on the latest model that turns all that off easily. Still I’m not looking forward to all the bings and bongs my new Dmax will have.

Mate's one must be the model just prior.

When he first got it he couldn't disable the lane guiding thing but it became available at the dealer a few months later............. just need to press a button at start up to disable now.

Maybe what you're talking about will become a retrospective option too.

DL

[Homestar]

Not 100% sure yet on what gets turned off but I know you can disable all these features one way or another on the latest model as I made sure of this before I bought one. The rep did say they'd copped a lot of push back on the inability to easily turn off the lane guidance and other features. While I'm sure it would be just a programming change to the previous model, if I was a betting person I'd say you'd get the middle finger from them if you asked for an update to make life easier. Like most OEM's once they have your money they aren't too concerned with what happens after that.

I am lucky enough to be holding a big carrot above our local Isuzu dealer as we've bought 2 top spec units for work and I've let them know there could be more if these 2 go well and we get looked after - time will tell.

[Homestar]

I know some don't like him but John Cadogan has just released a video on the new MG4 EV - well worth a watch as he gives a good unbiased opinion - he's owned and lived with EV's before and despite his preconceptions he believes this is a vehicle that could be the beginning of of EV's that will not only appeal to more buyers but is priced well enough to entice them across from the ICE world. I have to say if I was in the market for a second car for the family (that was a long time ago) then I would certainly be going to have a look at one. He's even handed with the good and bad points and personally I don't think the things he picked on would be a deal breaker for me. It's a long video as he live streamed it yesterday morning but worth having a look at IMO.

[loanrangie]

It would have to be a cold day in hell for me to buy a Chinese vehicle and the MG would be at the bottom of the list, trying to trade on the history of a marque with vehicles that are as far removed as you can get.

[spudfan]

From the MG Irish website

"Built to the highest standards in our state-of-the-art factories, we are so confident of the quality and reliability of MG4 EV that we give it a 7 year manufacturer's warranty"

[Homestar]

It would have to be a cold day in hell for me to buy a Chinese vehicle and the MG would be at the bottom of the list, trying to trade on the history of a marque with vehicles that are as far removed as you can get.

I hear ya and won't be lining up but I also remember similar comments from my Parents about Japanese Vehicles and then South Korean vehicles when they first hit the market here and to be fair Hyundai's early attempts were horrific but they've worked their way up to earn the place they have IMO. Early Datsuns rusted away in front of your eyes as well. I think decent quality Chinese cars are coming - I'm not saying the MG4 is one but it does seem like they are trying to step it up a bit.

I still want to see what happens in 10 years or so to the second hand EV market and how batteries are holding up - I wouldn't even contemplate one before I know they can do 10 to 15 years without issues - and I am very skeptical this will happen, but like a lot of things I keep an open mind on most things.

[scarry]

It would have to be a cold day in hell for me to buy a Chinese vehicle and the MG would be at the bottom of the list, trying to trade on the history of a marque with vehicles that are as far removed as you can get.

A bit like putting a Range Rover badge on an Evoke.[bigwhistle]

[DiscoDB]

A bit like putting a Range Rover badge on an Evoke.[bigwhistle]

…or a Land Rover badge on a Tata. [emoji849]

[NavyDiver]

I hear ya and won't be lining up but I also remember similar comments from my Parents about Japanese Vehicles and then South Korean vehicles when they first hit the market here and to be fair Hyundai's early attempts were horrific but they've worked their way up to earn the place they have IMO. Early Datsuns rusted away in front of your eyes as well. I think decent quality Chinese cars are coming - I'm not saying the MG4 is one but it does seem like they are trying to step it up a bit.

I still want to see what happens in 10 years or so to the second hand EV market and how batteries are holding up - I wouldn't even contemplate one before I know they can do 10 to 15 years without issues - and I am very skeptical this will happen, but like a lot of things I keep an open mind on most things.

Have to chuckle about that. A cheap Hyundai a friend brought for several thousand less than other 2nd hand cars in 1994 was in her words the best decision she ever made. Multiple people suggested she should spend a lot more for the other more known car brands at the time[bigrolf]

It's still running now[biggrin] Buy what you want and need. I would not buy another Russian ute despite the fun I had in mine fishing and camping [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]. my Chinese MG was a huge compromise - Short range, first of kind, poor high speed range........

That said It has saved me a lot over 40,000 km + traveled. I have record of the cost of my Disco. Not sharing as we all know large 4wds cost more to service and run!

"MG’s parent company is SAIC Motor (Shanghai Automobile Industry Corporation). SAIC Motor is the 7 th largest car manufacturer in the world and was the first automobile group in China with annual sales exceeding 7 million units"

I am waiting for my Disco replacement. Not biased to where it comes from other than no thank for a Russian again[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Have to chuckle about that. A cheap Hyundai a friend brought for several thousand less than other 2nd hand cars in 1994 was in her words the best decision she ever made. Multiple people suggested she should spend a lot more for the other more known car brands at the time[bigrolf]
[bigrolf]

The office Lady at work had one of those.She bought it off her Mum, who bought it new around mid '90's as well.Some low life stole it about six months ago,it was never found.Had around 350,000Km on it.

[4bee]

I'll confess I haven't really had much to do with the early Teslas. I have heard many reports of poor build quality.

However mine is so far well built. Like a month and a half into ownership and I've got not a cracker to complain about. Let's hope it keeps up. [bigwhistle]

[bigrolf] That has buggered that for now.

[loanrangie]

From the MG Irish website

"Built to the highest standards in our state-of-the-art factories, we are so confident of the quality and reliability of MG4 EV that we give it a 7 year manufacturer's warranty"

Just like Haval/GWM, they'll just keep replacing parts and whole engines til the warranty runs out - if it doesn't rust into the ground by then.

[NavyDiver]

Just like Haval/GWM, they'll just keep replacing parts and whole engines til the warranty runs out - if it doesn't rust into the ground by then.
Only in ICE engines [biggrin][biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

Only in ICE engines [biggrin][biggrin]

The simplicity of EV’s is a big reliability improvement. Will be interesting to see if in-wheel motors ever become common to eliminate almost all rotating parts.

[JDNSW]

In wheel electric motors have been tried periodically since at least Edwardian times. And have never lasted very long in production.

Apart from the frequently touted drawback of unsprung weight, competition for space with brakes, and the fact that they are working in a pretty unfriendly environment, a major drawback is that they are sacrificing one of the major advantages of electric motors - they can be operated at very high rpm without issues, enabling them to be a lot smaller, cheaper, and lighter than they would be if restricted to ICE speeds.

[DiscoDB]

For all wheel drive, the front and rear power unit is a good compromise. Leaves just one reduction gear drive for each power unit.

Direct drive in-wheel motors though will have a place - probably with larger vehicles to start.

The EV industry may have started over 100 years ago, but it is only now that we are seeing any real development of this technology.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I know some don't like him but John Cadogan has just released a video on the new MG4 EV - well worth a watch as he gives a good unbiased opinion - he's owned and lived with EV's before and despite his preconceptions he believes this is a vehicle that could be the beginning of of EV's that will not only appeal to more buyers but is priced well enough to entice them across from the ICE world. I have to say if I was in the market for a second car for the family (that was a long time ago) then I would certainly be going to have a look at one. He's even handed with the good and bad points and personally I don't think the things he picked on would be a deal breaker for me. It's a long video as he live streamed it yesterday morning but worth having a look at IMO.
Just FYI Cadogan has never owned an EV. Hyundai Australia gave him a Kona EV for 6 or 12 months.

Having said that I do like his stuff and don't disagree with his sentiment on the mg. It's the cars Australians should want to buy but I'm unconvinced they will. Looking at the top 20 selling cars in Australia, only a few have any presence under 30k.

Our car has a stated range of 455k. I think real world highway is probably 400 but it would do more around the city. This is ridiculously more than we need. For a second car most people will charge after each days driving. I can drive to the Sunshine coast and back from Brisbane inner north and still have 50%.

A range of 300k would probably also be too much. :D

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The simplicity of EV’s is a big reliability improvement. Will be interesting to see if in-wheel motors ever become common to eliminate almost all rotating parts.
There are a few people manufacturers talking about it - but I don't think it actually works that well with what we've got at this point. It's shocking for unsprung weight - and fitting an electric motor, brakes, and cooling in there is a bit hard.

Rivian has four independent motors and they use driveshafts.

[RANDLOVER]

Just FYI Cadogan has never owned an EV. Hyundai Australia gave him a Kona EV for 6 or 12 months.

Having said that I do like his stuff and don't disagree with his sentiment on the mg. It's the cars Australians should want to buy but I'm unconvinced they will. Looking at the top 20 selling cars in Australia, only a few have any presence under 30k.

Our car has a stated range of 455k. I think real world highway is probably 400 but it would do more around the city. This is ridiculously more than we need. For a second car most people will charge after each days driving. I can drive to the Sunshine coast and back from Brisbane inner north and still have 50%.

A range of 300k would probably also be too much. :D

IIRC Cadogan did a segment saying we need a really cheap (and some might say nasty) car, which I agree with as most Aussies seem to ignore the mid-range cars and go for either cheap and nasty or big and bold. In Ford and going back a few years for example, lots of Festivas and Falcons around and very few of the Focus or Mondeo models.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

IIRC Cadogan did a segment saying we need a really cheap (and some might say nasty) car, which I agree with as most Aussies seem to ignore the mid-range cars and go for either cheap and nasty or big and bold. In Ford and going back a few years for example, lots of Festivas and Commodores around and very few of the Focus or Mondeo models.
Time will tell. I'm not confident they will buy cheap in big numbers. It's not what they have been buying for some time now. Maybe with the economy tightening.

Either way.. for most people 300k of driving is a fair bit. Would be enough for most people in Brisbane to go to either the sunshine or the gold coast and drive around a bit.

[101RRS]

Either way.. for most people 300k of driving is a fair bit. Would be enough for most people in Brisbane to go to either the sunshine or the gold coast and drive around a bit.

Range is no longer and issue, after all many ICEs have the same range. The issue is how long its takes to recharge when you are in a hurry.

[RANDLOVER]

Range is no longer and issue, after all many ICEs have the same range. The issue is how long its takes to recharge when you are in a hurry.

Exactly no one would even buy an ICE car if they had to fill it via a 2mm fuel line that took ages.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Range is no longer and issue, after all many ICEs have the same range. The issue is how long its takes to recharge when you are in a hurry.
While I agree.. I don't think that's an issue for many.

If you live in a unit and have no home charging, or do journeys further than the range of the car then it definitely could be a consideration.

I think for people that can charge at home the speed of charging will be largely academic. For us we're sneaking up on 2 months of ownership and we haven't had to charge outside the house. If you use the car a lot one day, just whack it on charge when you go to bed and it will be as full as you like in the morning. Super handy.

[101RRS]

If you use the car a lot one day, just whack it on charge when you go to bed and it will be as full as you like in the morning. Super handy.

For sure if you have splurged thousands of $$$ on a high rate home charger but it will take days to charge with the standard home charger EVs come with.

[DiscoDB]

For sure if you have splurged thousands of $$$ on a high rate home charger but it will take days to charge with the standard home charger EVs come with.

If you can’t afford a 7kW home charger, you probably can’t afford to buy a new car.

[JDNSW]

Since about two thirds or more of car purchases are second hand cars, that means most Australians. Especially since a large proportion of new cars are bought by fleet owners. I probably have a restricted social circle, but very few of the people I know have ever bought a new car, and even fewer have always done so.

[Homestar]

For sure if you have splurged thousands of $$$ on a high rate home charger but it will take days to charge with the standard home charger EVs come with.

I think most of us have splurged many thousands on car stuff over the years. Adding a decent charger to the garage to suit the shiny new ev would be just par for the course and not something most would get too upset by I don’t think.

[Tombie]

Warning - TL;DR


NEMA 14-50 40 amp 9.6 kWh EV Charger.

With this charger, you can expect a charging range of ~40-56 kilometres per hour.

At that rate it would cost me ~$3.26 per hour
Assume I have a big range vehicle @ 50% charge.
Using my normal avg distance travelled per day of 250km

Some quick sums:

50km charge per hour @ $3.26 per hour. 5 hours to hit 250km range = $16.30 which is 1/3rd my fuel cost. [emoji106]

However it also adds +48wkh of my houses daily usage.
At the moment my 20-35kwh (seasonal variance) production is eaten pretty quickly.
Add my ~10kwh daily usage (that’s quite low)

Best case:
35x30(days) = 1,050 * $0.52 = $546.00 (max export revenue)
48+10 = 58 * 30(days) = 1,740 kWh @ $0.34 = $591.60 (consumed cost)

$546.00 - $591.60 = -$45.60 per month deficit


My normal vehicle would cost $489.00 for the same period.

My power/solar is normally:
$102.00 import
$546.00 export
= $442.00 cash in my pocket
-$489.00 fuel bill
= -$47.00 deficit


Total variation $1.40 in favour of EV


Didn’t bother to do the servicing, as it will certainly move in the EVs favour (especially outside warranty)

Does Tesla do corporate (free servicing during warranty?)

It’s a bit apples and oranges though - only Rivian is doing a full size Offroad vehicle at the moment, so my fuel burn is higher than say a BMW or other same size as a comparable Tesla

I did find a USA site that estimates a Tesla has a higher annual maintenance cost vs all other brands with Tesla @ $832 usd / year vs avg of $652 usd / year for all other brands in the same size category.


Was interesting to do the basic calcs…

[101RRS]

If you can’t afford a 7kW home charger, you probably can’t afford to buy a new car.
For many the body corporate will not allow the installation of these big chargers so many are stuck with a charger that plugs into a 10 amp three pin socket.

[101RRS]

I think most of us have splurged many thousands on car stuff over the years. Adding a decent charger to the garage to suit the shiny new ev would be just par for the course and not something most would get too upset by I don’t think.

For sure if you live in a nice 3 bedroom house in the burbs - not if you live in a block of units and have to park in the basement with access on to a 10 amp, 3 pin socket.

[DiscoDB]

Warning - TL;DR


NEMA 14-50 40 amp 9.6 kWh EV Charger.

With this charger, you can expect a charging range of ~40-56 kilometres per hour.

At that rate it would cost me ~$3.26 per hour
Assume I have a big range vehicle @ 50% charge.
Using my normal avg distance travelled per day of 250km

Some quick sums:

50km charge per hour @ $3.26 per hour. 5 hours to hit 250km range = $16.30 which is 1/3rd my fuel cost. [emoji106]

However it also adds +48wkh of my houses daily usage.
At the moment my 20-35kwh (seasonal variance) production is eaten pretty quickly.
Add my ~10kwh daily usage (that’s quite low)

Best case:
35x30(days) = 1,050 * $0.52 = $546.00 (max export revenue)
48+10 = 58 * 30(days) = 1,740 kWh @ $0.34 = $591.60 (consumed cost)

$546.00 - $591.60 = -$45.60 per month deficit


My normal vehicle would cost $489.00 for the same period.

My power/solar is normally:
$102.00 import
$546.00 export
= $442.00 cash in my pocket
-$489.00 fuel bill
= -$47.00 deficit


Total variation $1.40 in favour of EV


Didn’t bother to do the servicing, as it will certainly move in the EVs favour (especially outside warranty)

Does Tesla do corporate (free servicing during warranty?)

It’s a bit apples and oranges though - only Rivian is doing a full size Offroad vehicle at the moment, so my fuel burn is higher than say a BMW or other same size as a comparable Tesla

I did find a USA site that estimates a Tesla has a higher annual maintenance cost vs all other brands with Tesla @ $832 usd / year vs avg of $652 usd / year for all other brands in the same size category.


Was interesting to do the basic calcs…

We get it a Tombie - not for you…..just keep that fleet of 4WD’s on the road. [emoji41]

But would be nice to be able to get the export credits you still receive.

[DiscoDB]

For many the body corporate will not allow the installation of these big chargers so many are stuck with a charger that plugs into a 10 amp three pin socket.

That will change - won’t be long before they legislate to stop body corps from being allowed to do this. I am even expecting before too long landlords will be forced to allow EV chargers to be installed in rentals (and probably be held responsible for the maintenance).

A 2.4kW charger can still add 10-15km an hour - so that’s at least 100-150km a day you could add (assuming you are only home for 10hrs a day).

Of course people can always stick with an ICE or just get a plug in hybrid - a 40km range can still reduce fuel usage if people really care.

[Tombie]

We get it a Tombie - not for you…..just keep that fleet of 4WD’s on the road. [emoji41]

But would be nice to be able to get the export credits you still receive.

It was just an exercise. Didn’t take any charging delays/hold ups/availability into the sums. That’s a convenience/locality argument - my calcs still work for city owners - when I was city based my daily travel was about the same servicing clients and many a tech or service rep will cover these kilometres.

I’d read an article claiming no cost benefit, so did it whilst sitting here waiting for my wet tumbler to finished its run [emoji13]

Based on current supply charges - I don’t believe on paper it’s (financially) for almost anybody. Happy to see a model where it makes a significant difference.

Unless the person is the current owner of a very large solar array the costs just don’t stack up as of any (financial) benefit to the owner regardless of kilometres driven annually.

Add purchase premium vs equivalent ICE and let’s say 7 years of initial ownership, the current offerings don’t seem to have a financial benefit (private vehicles) unless your boss is willing to let you charge at work for free [emoji6] otherwise plugging in at work is the equivalent of misuse of a fuel card. [emoji56]

They certainly aren’t cleaner, except if you’re standing behind them [emoji41], with the learned argument sitting somewhere between 16,000 & 40,000 miles* before the vehicle itself goes carbon nett zero from manufacturing and excludes any further processing.

[DiscoDB]

Tombie - I have never bought a car based on the economics of ownership. You talking to someone who spent 70% of my income keeping my first car on the road - which of course I had to replace the 6cyl with a V8.

I also don’t buy into the debate that an EV is better or worse for the environment than say a 3T 4WD. I do accept they are cleaner and it is easier to control emissions at the source of the power generation- but will an EV be better over its life time compared to a new 3T 4WD isn’t part of the decision making for me (or for most people if they are honest).

Most of us make car buying decisions based on what we want and can afford. Some even buy what they can’t afford.

Trying to rationalise that EV’s are bad based on cost of ownership, lack of range, can’t tow 3.5T, don’t reduce emissions, won’t last 20 years, or any other reason you can try to come up with won’t change anything - other than convince yourself it is not for you. Nothing wrong with that if it doesn’t suit your needs - but doesn’t make it true for everyone.

And so if you have to use these arguments to rationalise why you bought what you bought - good for you. Enjoy it - you deserve owning something that makes you happy. I am yet to hear from a current EV owner who isn’t happy (gee even NavyDiver for all the faults with the MG is getting another one).

It is clear for me that emission controls just make new ICE vehicles less and less attractive, so I can’t wait to see where EVs or Hydrogen powered vehicles take us.

My dream “end of the fossil era“ vehicle is probably still a supercharged V8 petrol RRS - just have to find one that I can justify buying and doesn’t like to destroy itself. May have to settle for a TDV8 RRS instead and then transfer the powertrain across to the D3.

It is an exciting time for the future of the auto industry and I can’t wait to see what comes next. The EV industry is only just truly kicking off this century and can only get better and better. It has 100 years to catch up on and it is the early adopters that are laying the foundations for the future.

And meanwhile, enjoy your ICE’s people. You will be driving them for decades to come.

[Homestar]

For sure if you live in a nice 3 bedroom house in the burbs - not if you live in a block of units and have to park in the basement with access on to a 10 amp, 3 pin socket.

Agree wholeheartedly on that point. I doubt the poor sods in the apartment block would even have access to a standard power point. Add in all those that have no driveway and there’s a LOT of people that have no way at all of charging at home.

Add in those that have wimpy supplies to their houses like mine - only a 32 amp supply - that would basically max out on a 7KW charger so forget heating the house or cooking dinner while the EV is charging or vice versa.

[Homestar]

That will change - won’t be long before they legislate to stop body corps from being allowed to do this. I am even expecting before too long landlords will be forced to allow EV chargers to be installed in rentals (and probably be held responsible for the maintenance).

A 2.4kW charger can still add 10-15km an hour - so that’s at least 100-150km a day you could add (assuming you are only home for 10hrs a day).

Of course people can always stick with an ICE or just get a plug in hybrid - a 40km range can still reduce fuel usage if people really care.

Where’s all the power coming from in these units even if the Body Corporate gives the ok? Multi storey apartments don’t have any spare capacity for EV’s and mandating this for new builds would add millions to the price so I bet the developers will lobby Government pretty hard not to have to do this. The major Cities are almost tapped out now with their power distribution. Where all the extra infrastructure is coming from I don’t know.

[DiscoDB]

Where’s all the power coming from in these units even if the Body Corporate gives the ok? Multi storey apartments don’t have any spare capacity for EV’s and mandating this for new builds would add millions to the price so I bet the developers will lobby Government pretty hard not to have to do this. The major Cities are almost tapped out now with their power distribution. Where all the extra infrastructure is coming from I don’t know.

Is grid capacity truly a problem? Electricity consumption has been trending down since it peaked in 2008.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230721/3ddb35c83f20c74ef2bb15a6230716e8.jpg

No doubt wiring capacity in old apartments and homes will be a problem. Has to be a user pay system. If you must have an EV, and you need a home charger, you will have to pay to upgrade the power supply to install that new charger if the wiring to your unit or home can not handle the capacity.

Fortunately for most residents, a 2.4kW home charger is more than adequate.

One irony will be all those off-peak hot water systems may need to be reprogrammed to heat during the day rather than at night time as they currently do (at least in apartments in Victoria) - especially if EV charging moves when peak power consumption takes place. Either that or home car chargers should also be put on the same off-peak circuit as electric water heaters as this is when the grid does have excess capacity available

(Let’s not discuss where off-peak power comes from - that’s Australia’s dirty little secret).

[DiscoDB]

Add in those that have wimpy supplies to their houses like mine - only a 32 amp supply - that would basically max out on a 7KW charger so forget heating the house or cooking dinner while the EV is charging or vice versa.

32A supply would be a big problem for me - wouldn’t even power our normal peak energy usage.

Fortunately my house we can take 63A, which is probably still on the low side if you want to run a 7kW charger and still use peak power at the same time - but ovens are often on a 32A circuit, so running an additional 32A circuit to the garage and not charging when using the oven is possible (the oven is rarely used these days).

I guess the benefit of a 7kW charger is you could set it up to charge when your power consumption is at it’s lowest.

[4bee]

32A supply would be a big problem for me - wouldn’t even power our normal peak energy usage.

Fortunately my house we can take 63A at present. 63A is probably on the low side if you want to run a 7kW charger and still use peak power at the same time - but stoves are often on a 32A circuit, so running an additional 32A circuit to the garage and not charging when using the stove is possible (the stove is rarely used these days).

I wonder whether anyone has told the Good Guys et al that?[bighmmm][bawl]


Induction seems to be making inroads but no idea what they draw.

[4bee]

Exactly no one would even buy an ICE car if they had to fill it via a 2mm fuel line that took ages.


Just wondering what that 2mm fuel line would look like (I know I know, tiny.):Rolling:

[DiscoDB]

I wonder whether anyone has told the Good Guys et al that?[bighmmm][bawl]


Induction seems to be making inroads but no idea what they draw.

Heaps - up to 48A supply needed with some of them. Some people will be in for a shock if they don’t do their homework. A lot need 32A (so this is additional to the oven).

Phasing out gas in Victoria will force a lot of us to need to upgrade to 80A or 100A supply just for heating and cooking.

(But that is an entirely different topic).

[Tombie]

Just wondering what that 2mm fuel line would look like (I know I know, tiny.):Rolling:

Surely at your vintage, flow through a small orifice is slower than years gone by [emoji56]

[Tombie]

Heaps - up to 48A supply needed with some of them. Some people will be in for a shock if they don’t do their homework. A lot need 32A (so this is additional to the oven).

Phasing out gas in Victoria will force a lot of us to need to upgrade to 80A or 100A supply just for heating and cooking.

(But that is an entirely different topic).

Perhaps a government funded scheme using the now saved 5 billion [emoji48]

[scarry]

Perhaps a government funded scheme using the now saved 5 billion [emoji48]

Probably turn into one big mess,and end up costing the Govt way more than the saved $5 Bil.[bighmmm]

[Homestar]

Is grid capacity truly a problem? Electricity consumption has been trending down since it peaked in 2008.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230721/3ddb35c83f20c74ef2bb15a6230716e8.jpg

No doubt wiring capacity in old apartments and homes will be a problem. Has to be a user pay system. If you must have an EV, and you need a home charger, you will have to pay to upgrade the power supply to install that new charger if the wiring to your unit or home can not handle the capacity.

Fortunately for most residents, a 2.4kW home charger is more than adequate.

One irony will be all those off-peak hot water systems may need to be reprogrammed to heat during the day rather than at night time as they currently do (at least in apartments in Victoria) - especially if EV charging moves when peak power consumption takes place. Either that or home car chargers should also be put on the same off-peak circuit as electric water heaters as this is when the grid does have excess capacity available

(Let’s not discuss where off-peak power comes from - that’s Australia’s dirty little secret).

I didn’t say the supply was an issue - I said DISTRIBUTION - very different and as someone who works in that industry and those trying to make it work I can tell you NO ONE knows the answer to this problem so if you thing you can trot out a chart you find on line proves your point you’re very wrong.

If you want an honest answer try calling your supply authority and ask them a theoretical question. Tell them you want to upgrade your apartment block from its 400 amp supply to a 2000 amp supply so you can install some chargers for the tenants. Give them a State Capital City postcode - Please record the answer and post it here. I’m betting it’s the sound of laughter.

[DiscoDB]

I didn’t say the supply was an issue - I said DISTRIBUTION - very different and as someone who works in that industry and those trying to make it work I can tell you NO ONE knows the answer to this problem so if you thing you can trot out a chart you find on line proves your point you’re very wrong.

If you want an honest answer try calling your supply authority and ask them a theoretical question. Tell them you want to upgrade your apartment block from its 400 amp supply to a 2000 amp supply so you can install some chargers for the tenants. Give them a State Capital City postcode - Please record the answer and post it here. I’m betting it’s the sound of laughter.

Was not proving any point - just asking if our major cities power distribution is truly tapped out if total load across the network is coming down.

No doubt existing apartment unit owners will have complications if everyone decides to buy an EV and wants their own personal level 2 charger. At best they may be able to get a few shared fast chargers which people will have to learn how to play nicely with each other to gain access too.

There will always be a % of EV owners who have no choice but to use public chargers.

But I would expect new developments will have to make provisions for this - probably becomes a good selling point.