EV general discussion

[goingbush]

But adapt to what is still a question yet to be answered. <snip>

Adapt to walking , is probably what we will have to be doing .

[goingbush]

Electric Toyota LandCruiser set for production

Electric Toyota LandCruiser set for production - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/electric-toyota-landcruiser-set-for-production)

(incase you missed it)

[Tombie]

what a short sighted attitude you have, basically its a case of Adapt or Die .

Not at all, a lot more will die or suffer in the process.

Where do you think the Graphene comes from? Want to hear stories of the atrocities that go on in that region? The corruption and loss of lives? A good friend is one of the Process bosses and the **** that goes on, the corrupt local leaders and their disregard for life of their people is mind blowing. And why? Because they can manipulate the mines to change things like river flows, dams etc that result in ALL the water to downstream villages drying up.

Yes, that’s the true face of this wonderful push to be environmentally sound. At least those dead villagers are good for carbon sequestered into the ground.

Mining more to build more to pollute less is madness. Less emissions would occur simply be reducing new vehicle production and insisting on current ones being up to code on emissions controls they already have.

Do that whilst developing real solutions like Green H. Then allow new vehicles to be built based on that tech.

You think I’m short sighted? Batteries are short sighted.

You’re absolutely correct - adapt or die.

Adapt to the sensible realisation that finite space and resources demands finite populations and emissions. They aren’t mutually exclusive as many seem to think.

Adapt to changing weather conditions that aren’t going away anytime soon.

[JDNSW]

The major push for EVs is to replace ICEVs for commuting. It seems to me that the use of personal vehicles for most commuting shows shortcomings in public transport. In most cities of any size, most commuting should be by public transport.

[Tombie]

Electric Toyota LandCruiser set for production

Electric Toyota LandCruiser set for production - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/electric-toyota-landcruiser-set-for-production)

(incase you missed it)

Not the best range though. [emoji846]
And only driven by the need for zero emissions underground.

They’ll will have a fleet of them and one set will spend the entire alternate shift on chargers.

[PhilipA]

I cannot resist posting this link.
It seems that the benefits of RVs has been wildly overstated and that a diesel running bio fule mix is just as good for the environment.

171 Scientists: CO2 Budget Of Electric Mobility “Twice As Big As Assumed” By European Leaders – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/06/30/171-scientists-co2-budget-of-electric-mobility-twice-as-big-as-assumed-by-european-leaders/)
Regards PhilipA

[ramblingboy42]

Should it?

So far none of this has demonstrated it is sustainable. People on the financial edge will be taxed into oblivion to cover it, and those who can afford it will go blissfully on in ignorance.

A sustainable future doesn’t involve ripping more and more elements out of the ground to feed the thirst of ever increasing population.

Nor does it work if the average citizen can no longer afford the basics due to increased costs of literally everything to fund a quest towards lower per capita emissions whilst exponentially increasing populations.

This one eyed approach is more ****ed than Linda Lovelace. [emoji56]

Tombie , may I PM you?

[DiscoMick]

We've only got one planet. We're not moving to Mars any time soon. Let's not wreck Earth through greed and recklesness.

[vnx205]

Is this getting closer to the price and range that some people say they want?

I think that Irish price converts to about $33,000. I did see an Australian version of that story, but can't find it at the moment.

Renault confirms its electric 5 will be affordable - car and motoring news by CompleteCar.ie (https://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/11041/Renault-confirms-its-electric-5-will-be-affordable)

[Tombie]

Tombie , may I PM you?

Of course

[Homestar]

We've only got one planet. We're not moving to Mars any time soon. Let's not wreck Earth through greed and recklesness.

Too late I'm afraid - there are too many greedy and reckless companies out there that are doing 90% of the damage and we as individuals are supposed to be able to sort out the issues by buying an EV - from the greedy and reckless companies - yeah, right...

[DiscoMick]

That's a very interesting story, with a lot of good things happening, thanks for sharing.

Is this getting closer to the price and range that some people say they want?

I think that Irish price converts to about $33,000. I did see an Australian version of that story, but can't find it at the moment.

Renault confirms its electric 5 will be affordable - car and motoring news by CompleteCar.ie (https://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/11041/Renault-confirms-its-electric-5-will-be-affordable)

[NavyDiver]

Too late I'm afraid - there are too many greedy and reckless companies out there that are doing 90% of the damage and we as individuals are supposed to be able to sort out the issues by buying an EV - from the greedy and reckless companies - yeah, right...

Chatting about this with my rev head cousin yesterday. My uncles speed car racing days are over yet his 1200 litres per day tractor is still a big beast was in the chat as well.


"One litre of diesel fuel(auto) has an energy content of approximately 38 MJ –which approximates to 10kWh (using a ballpark figure) but the efficiency of conversion into kinetic energy is only about 30% -that is better than petrol which is typically 25% depending on the design.So one litre of diesel will give up about 3.3kWh (30% of the 10 kWh) –the remainder of the energy goes out of the exhaust pipe mainly as hot gas! Electric cars are about 90% efficient. If the electrical energy is made from renewable sources such as hydro or wind, the value to the environment is immense. However, most of our electricity comes from fossil fuels which have a typical efficiency of 27%, so better to burn diesel directly really. So, the electric car is a good under “some” circumstances but not all."


My thoughts were IF the EVs can already smash acceleration records. My cousin suggested that for cars and motor cycles. When it is cheaper to run the beast of a tractor on Hydrogen via a hybrid solid state battery and fuel cell he might happily park the huge tractor and pocket the roughly $1668 daily running costs? We did chat about the servicing cost of the petrol and diesel. My Disco is about due again which is a lot slower than before I added my quirky MG ev which did not travel to Port Fairy this time :)

Have to add the smart distance control on cruise control on most new cars is not trusted by me. It is very noticed in its absences in the drive over the weekend in my Disco [biggrin] which I will happily move to battery/hydrogen when it is possible. Watching the Olympics with interest. Toyota is a dark hours in this field and rumours about we may see in the next few weeks have been about for over a year.

Excuse me I mentioned this - Last week I used a DC fast charger for free to charge my MG. While waiting the short time I chatted with A Driving Instructor with a Nissan leaf. He had had it for five years and 40,000km. All his power cost was $0- inner city yuppy [biggrin] His PHP was solar power cars. Yep- he is also a Darwin to Adelaide type. His service costs met my expectations- not much at all.

"The average vehicle used 13.4 litres of fuel per 100 km in Australia in 2020." accordng to one source. Assuming a nice easy cost of 10L per 100km the leaf has save him a bit?
Assume 40,000 km at 10L per 100km at a an assumed avg cost of$1.20 per litre gives him about $4800 saved on fuel.
Budget Direct avg costs suggest $29 ish weekly for tire and service costs. That is roughly estimated at $6032 by me for a petrol. Given his experience of no new tires yet and next to no service costs I suspect he is about $10,000 richer than another Driving Instructor I know. That is not a huge amount for the tiny cars. My uncles tractor on the other hand may possibly have significant savings to make considerations of change a worth while time and effort consideration?

"Hyzon Motors’ hydrogen-powered coaches are ready to conquer the harsh mining landscape of Western Australia.The zero-emission vehicle manufacturer today (June 22) made the statement as it confirmed that its transport coaches have completed a 15,000-kilometer durability road test.
A key trial before one of the world’s largest iron-ore producers uses the vehicles in the remote Pilbara region, the test demonstrated the capability, effectiveness and strength of the vehicles which will have to operate in extreme temperature.
Hyzon CEO Craig Knight said that passing the durability phase – the equivalent of driving more than seven times straight from New York to Miami – demonstrated that the vehicles are clean, powerful and uniquely suited for long haul and high utilisation back-to-base transport."
The power is "At Hyzon Motors, we currently deploy hydrogen vehicles with up to 150kW fuel cell modules, while preparing for 370kW systems (equivalent to 500 horsepower) to be manufactured at our Rochester facility in New York. Our next-generation 500hp fuel cell systems are well suited to applications such as inter-city rail, mining vehicles, port equipment and marine vessels, as well as long haul and short haul heavy vehicles."

Not here yet was yesterdays news [biggrin] My quirky one is NOT perfect[smilebigeye] Cool but in rehab when new is clearly not Best Practice[biggrin]

Hyzon spac news is of interest for 15 July- NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!

[Eevo]

"The average vehicle used 13.4 litres of fuel per 100 km in Australia in 2020."

v8 owners

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/710/dd0.png

[NavyDiver]

v8 owners

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/710/dd0.png

I was wondering if trucks and my uncles tractor got into that average[thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

Seems like the gold standard is EVs charged by solar and used as household battery backups at night. As for servicing, seems confined to fluids, tyres and software updates.

[scarry]

v8 owners

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/030/710/dd0.png

Driven sensibly,which I know is difficult,they will at times use less fuel than an equivalent sized vehicle with a 4 cylinder.

[NavyDiver]

Driven sensibly,which I know is difficult,they will at times use less fuel than an equivalent sized vehicle with a 4 cylinder.

The little EVs ridiculous pick up from any speed, makes V8 drivers task of driving sensibly much harder[bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

Driven sensibly,which I know is difficult,they will at times use less fuel than an equivalent sized vehicle with a 4 cylinder.

yeah, my v8 ute before i put the cam in it, got 7h/l on the highway @ 110km/h

[350RRC]

yeah, my v8 ute before i put the cam in it, got 7h/l on the highway @ 110km/h

How big is the tank? You could drive across the whole country easily on one tank with that consumption figure. B)

DL

[vnx205]

yeah, my v8 ute before i put the cam in it, got 7h/l on the highway @ 110km/h

7h/l ?

Is that 7 hogsheads per league?

[350RRC]

7h/l ?

Is that 7 hogsheads per league?

I took it to be 7 hours per litre ([biggrin]) at 110 km/h). We all make those slips.

DL

[Eevo]

oops. 7 liters per hundred km. its been a long day.

[Tins]

Have to admit, the concept of a collaboration between Rimac and Bugatti is mouth watering. Give Elon something to think about.

[bob10]

Fast charging batteries, good for more range? A way to go yet, but getting there. From unsealed 4x4;




Unsealed 4X4 | Can fast-charging batteries make EV 4X4s remote-area capable? (https://unsealed4x4.com.au/can-fast-charging-batteries-make-ev-4x4s-remote-area-capable/)

[DiscoMick]

The focus has been on improving batteries for EVs, but advances in charging, particularly on-board charging, seem to have great potential. This discussion is interesting.

Avnet: Quality Electronic Components & Services (https://www.avnet.com/wps/portal/abacus/solutions/markets/automotive-and-transportation/automotive/power-train-and-ev-hc-phev-systems/ev-on-board-chargers/)

[Homestar]

The focus has been on improving batteries for EVs, but advances in charging, particularly on-board charging, seem to have great potential. This discussion is interesting.

Avnet: Quality Electronic Components & Services (https://www.avnet.com/wps/portal/abacus/solutions/markets/automotive-and-transportation/automotive/power-train-and-ev-hc-phev-systems/ev-on-board-chargers/)

While I agree OBC are a good idea - if someone came to my place and wanted to plug into my house to change when they dropped over would soon wear out their welcome. I would always help to get them out if a pinch but I wouldn’t want to see this sort of behaviour normalised. I also wouldn’t be too keen on people plugging into a 3 phase outlet at a business if I was paying the power bill either. My mates workshop goes through $1000 a month in power and he’s always ****ing and moaning about it and trying to reduce these costs and I’m pretty sure he’s tell someone to **** off if they wanted to top up from the 32 amp outlet out the front - He’ll probably have to start turning that outlet off if this becomes an expectation.

[DiscoMick]

If they have an account with Chargefox or a similar retailer then that might solve the problem.

[Tombie]

This thread is a great example of Google etc assisting narratives.

Not often has a proponent posted a negative showing limitations or drawbacks.

A balanced view is critical and a few here are working along those lines, others are demonstrating cognitive bias.

(Other examples are renewables threads etc)

Please, balance the discussions and posts.
At least acknowledge the challenges etc with the tech.

For example, on board chargers - that’s a fair bit of additional mass to lug around - there goes some range straight away. As posted, who is going to provide a free 32a plug? How will such be metered? And who will pay for the meter?

Rapid charging stations have all of this factored in already.

[Tombie]

Some food for thought.

- 80% of the worlds Lithium is in China.

- “Lithium” batteries contain 40 times more Graphite than Lithium, so are really “Graphite Batteries”

- Several other rarer metals are in the make up including Cobalt and Nickel

- Cobalt comes from DRC, Russia, Australia, Cuba, Madagascar, New Caledonia, Phillipines and South Africa

It’s expected all the above minerals will become more valuable than Gold.

[NavyDiver]

Some food for thought.

- 80% of the worlds Lithium is in China.

- “Lithium” batteries contain 40 times more Graphite than Lithium, so are really “Graphite Batteries”

- Several other rarer metals are in the make up including Cobalt and Nickel

- Cobalt comes from DRC, Russia, Australia, Cuba, Madagascar, New Caledonia, Phillipines and South Africa

It’s expected all the above minerals will become more valuable than Gold.

Spodumene lithium miners have been doing an amazing job yet the prices had been anything but stellar. They are moving now happily.

Australians very much in the field, some of who mine in other places including Europe in the snow and the US. PLL has moved to the USA with a tesla countract for supply to fill I think

"Lithium miner Pilbara Minerals has completed the acquisition of Altura Lithium, it said on Wednesday January 20.
The transaction makes Pilbara Minerals the 100% owner of the Altura project, which is adjacent to Pilbara’s existing spodumene operation in Western Australia.
Pilbara Minerals said the acquisition has created the largest independent hardrock lithium mining and processing operation in the world.

We might be kicking above our weight in Lithium and Graphite [thumbsupbig] o


On graphite, a western oz invention should have 2 tonnes of that stuff made to order for every tonne of hydrogen it makes.

One of the interesting changes in battery chemistry may see some of the other metals you mention cut out due to the damage they cause in a few locations. DRC is a bit rough around the edges apparently. With several non china so called giga-battery plants in construction in the US, Japan and Europe the demand for some of the mineral we have is not a mirage. Rare earths is another area China has dominated. A very Sneaky cool Australian Company at Meld Weld in WA a plant in Malaysia and now in Kalgoorlie struggled for a decade and is now a force plus with patented technology which is now being applied in a US site or two with us being paid to do it :)

The pollution and environmental damage done in China is a real concern for them. The advantages they only appeared to have in rare earth and some other products came at huge hidden costs for the Chinese people. It would be nice if they could settle down and stop the dummy spit they admit they are having with Australia and allow everyone to work together reasonably. [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Europe is to stop selling petrol and diesel cars by 2035. It will be EVs only. This is a massive change and mimics what is happening in China.

Huge move will change cars we buy forever: Europe wants to ban petrol and diesel cars by 2035 (https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/europe-wants-to-ban-petrol-and-diesel-cars-by-2035/news-story/54a83d22fb1b69bd5c427df8747778f1)

[Tombie]

Will be interesting to see if it happens.

As the opening paragraph says “one of the most ambitious”

[Tombie]

Fast charging batteries, good for more range? A way to go yet, but getting there. From unsealed 4x4;




Unsealed 4X4 | Can fast-charging batteries make EV 4X4s remote-area capable? (https://unsealed4x4.com.au/can-fast-charging-batteries-make-ev-4x4s-remote-area-capable/)

Interesting. Wonder what the heat generation is like during that process.

[Homestar]

Europe is to stop selling petrol and diesel cars by 2035. It will be EVs only. This is a massive change and mimics what is happening in China.

Huge move will change cars we buy forever: Europe wants to ban petrol and diesel cars by 2035 (https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/europe-wants-to-ban-petrol-and-diesel-cars-by-2035/news-story/54a83d22fb1b69bd5c427df8747778f1)

They better get a wriggle on building more power stations and increasing solar and battery installations then as they only have about 1/5th of the power generation currently to run all the vehicles in the EU should they all go EV.

[DiscoMick]

I should clarify the actual proposed rule is to achieve zero tailpipe emissions. EVs and hydrogen can achieve zero emissions.

[PhilipA]

I have attached a report which show the performance of Electric buses in a few USA cities.

In Philadelphia they have discontinued use of them. In Duluth they have had to add diesel heaters to increase range.

All the buses are from one USA manufacturer, Proterra and cost USD 1Million each.

Now Griff who is I believe an Australian chimed in that 1000 had been sold so 25 or so wasnt indicative but it turns out only 375 have been delivered and many have not been put into service due to problems with siting chargers etc.

Sydney has some on order from China and recently boasted that they were going to replace the whole fleet. I hope the Chinese ones are better than the USA ones.

Report: Philadelphia’s Electric Bus Fleet in Complete Shambles – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/07/19/report-philadelphias-electric-bus-fleet-in-complete-shambles/)

Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Looks like the OEM is going bust and didn't allow for or expect the problems that arose. Hopefully the Chinese units will be better - Any early tech has issues - this is a pretty big one though and the OEM isn't helping the perception by the sounds of it.

[Tombie]

I should clarify the actual proposed rule is to achieve zero tailpipe emissions. EVs and hydrogen can achieve zero emissions.

So essentially a game of ‘slight of hand’ [emoji41]

[NavyDiver]

I have attached a report which show the performance of Electric buses in a few USA cities.

In Philadelphia they have discontinued use of them. In Duluth they have had to add diesel heaters to increase range.

All the buses are from one USA manufacturer, Proterra and cost USD 1Million each.

Now Griff who is I believe an Australian chimed in that 1000 had been sold so 25 or so wasnt indicative but it turns out only 375 have been delivered and many have not been put into service due to problems with siting chargers etc.

Sydney has some on order from China and recently boasted that they were going to replace the whole fleet. I hope the Chinese ones are better than the USA ones.

Report: Philadelphia’s Electric Bus Fleet in Complete Shambles – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/07/19/report-philadelphias-electric-bus-fleet-in-complete-shambles/)

Regards PhilipA


They nailed the heavy BEV issue I think Phillip. "Structural and logistical problems—the weight of the powerful battery was cracking the vehicles’ chassis, and the battery life was insufficient for the city’s bus routes. " They are already heavy before you add a battery to a bus. A buss, semi trailers, trucks or ship weight a lot before you start. Adding huge batteries has to reduce payload before you consider the charging infrastructure and time required

The issues the already out dated 2016 'Proterra buses' ? going to the same time frame or further back is a report on the long term reliability of London FCEV buses (https://www.ballard.com/docs/default-source/motive-modules-documents/transport-for-london-case-study-website.pdf'sfvrsn=9f51c280_2). I have a little of the Canadian company - NOT A STOCK recommendation

"eight buses have logged more than 215,000 hours of service, covering 2 million km" One recently set an important milestone of 30,000 hours of continuous operation without replacement or repairs."

That is interesting if compared to "AS4536 “Life Cycle Costing – An Application Guide" which looks at:


Physical life – ends when the vehicle cannot provide acceptable service in reliability or maintenance.
Functional life – ends when the vehicle is obsolete, although this can simply trigger an upgrade programme.
Functional life is rare as most mandated upgrades are phased in to reduce waste.
Economic life – ends when the lowest life cycle cost is achieved.



In Oz Buses thats 20-25 years IF a great deal of maintenance and care is taken. Refits occur at about 15 years at "Volgren bodied buses are usually refitted for a cost rarely exceeding $20,000. Rust issues usually meant that any comparable steel bus would fetch a refit cost of $30,000 with some as high as $40,000"
4 minor services followed by a major service is reported

Fuel -40 litres per 100km seemed about average fuel cost Page 10 is the costings from the interesting 2016 Volgen bus report (http://volgren.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/BusVic-bulletin-volgren-report.pdf)

Battery technology changes to solid state lithium and similar will change some of the numbers


On the FCEV side yet another one popped up today TotalEnergies Global Homepage - Renewables and Electricity, Natural Gas and Green Gases, Oil and Biofuels (https://totalenergies.com/)

TotalEnergies has joined the H2Accelerate group that is committed to working together to accelerate the deployment of green hydrogen for trucking.

Comprising of Daimler, IVECO, OMV, Shell and Volvo, the group will collaborate to create the conditions for the mass-market roll-out of hydrogen trucks in Europe.


As did Hyzon Motors with an announcement close to home here Hyzon Motors signs Memorandum of Understanding with Superior Pak for the supply of up to 20 refuse collection vehicles in 2022 " Superior Pak Australia supplier of Waste Management and Collection Equipment | Waste Collection Trucks - Waste Refuse Trucks - Garbage Collection Trucks (https://www.superiorpak.com.au/)

Hyzon claims they are ready now (https://hyzonmotors.com/vehicle/city-and-coach-buses/)It seems 2022 is the date that keeps popping up


Westfarmers- Core gas "

Coregas, a Wesfarmers company, has signed a vehicle supply agreement for two of Hyzon Motors’ hydrogen fuel cell-powered prime mover trucks, to be delivered in 2022
Vehicles expected to be the first hydrogen-powered heavy trucks operating in Australia, deployed at Coregas’ hydrogen production facility in New South Wales
Coregas expected to build the first commercial hydrogen refuelling station in Australia, collaborating with Hyzon to drive greater uptake of hydrogen-powered heavy-duty vehicles

"

China has a nibble with heavy battery based mining trucks which I feel might have the same issue and the 2016 Phili buses or my quirky Chinese MG EV :)


https://www.yutonghi.com/pro_cat/mining-machinery/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7-a0kLPw8QIVR05gCh0Bsg96EAAYAyAAEgLGFPD_BwE


Noting NKA Nikola motors with its proposed fuel cell trucks is still alive after a farcical event or two. [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Brisbane City Council is trialling the first of 60 electric buses to be manufactured by Yutong in China and assembled in Brisbane.

Shhhh, here come Brisbane’s first oh-so-quiet electric buses (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/shhhh-here-come-brisbane-s-first-oh-so-quiet-electric-buses-20210615-p581ag.html)

[JDNSW]

Brings back memories of the trolleybuses in Brisbane in the 1960s!

[scarry]

They better get a wriggle on building more power stations and increasing solar and battery installations then as they only have about 1/5th of the power generation currently to run all the vehicles in the EU should they all go EV.

And we probably have less,that is if it happens here as well.

[NavyDiver]

Saw yesterday that Mercedes truck plant is adding BEV and FCEV to the large truck production line in Germany. It is good to hear it is ICE/BEV/FCEV in one line as that means choice not prescriptive yet.

The Fuel Cell addition is not straight away which is a very good hint that Merc do not have that technology yet. They had a 2025 for the FCEV trucks and this year and 2022 for the BEV trucks in addition to the continued ICE engines.

A bit of trivia- there is no such thing as new energy. All the energy in the universe is already there or here. It can change form such as sunlight to plants or coal to heat........

We can change from sail ships to steam to oil burners - I do not miss HMAS Vampire soot blows [biggrin] you can still get that feeling if you like at a steam train if the wind is the right way and the fire is not hot enough [thumbsupbig]

It is all economics now. The cost of recharging my quirky EV is almost always free. MG, BYD, Great Wall and other Chinese along with VW which is still the worlds biggest car maker have all moved. KIA and Hyundai surprised Japan which usually was a little slow of the mark yet now moving quickly to catch up.

No question that issues need resolutions before we can convert our Discos to a long range touring, towing and 4wd emission free [biggrin] Not spending a silly amount is the key.

[DiscoMick]

I read that Shenzen in China has 16,000 electric buses and 22,000 electric taxis.

After a century of achievements, the CPC's next critical phase begins now - Pearls and Irritations (https://johnmenadue.com/after-a-century-of-achievements-the-cpcs-next-critical-phase-begins-now/)

[PhilipA]

You are reprinting articles from The China Daily????
Regards PhilipA


China Daily has the widest print circulation of any English-language newspaper in China.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-:1-2) The headquarters and principal editorial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editing) office is in the Chaoyang District (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaoyang_District,_Beijing) of Beijing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing).[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-2014_Annual_Report-1) The newspaper has branch offices in most major cities of China as well as several major foreign cities including New York City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), Washington, D.C. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.), London (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London), and Kathmandu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathmandu).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-3) The paper is published by satellite offices in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States), Hong Kong (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong), and Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-4) China Daily also produces an insert of sponsored content called "China Watch" that has been distributed inside other newspapers such as The New York Times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times), The Wall Street Journal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wall_Street_Journal), and The Washington Post (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Post).[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-:2-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-7)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-8)
China Daily in China targets mainly diplomats, foreign expats, tourists as well as locals wishing to improve their English.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-:1-2) The China edition also offers program guides to Radio Beijing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Beijing) and television, daily exchange rates, and local entertainment schedules.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-9) It has been used as a guide to Chinese government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_China) policy and positions of the Chinese Communist Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party).[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-11) Scholar Falk Hartig describes the newspaper and its various international editions as an "instrument of China's public diplomacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy)."[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-:1-2)[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Daily#cite_note-12)

MY bold text.

[DiscoMick]

I know about China Daily.
The author has an interesting viewpoint and there is a lot of interesting information in the article, which is based on his presentations at two conferences.
There are two sides to every story, but the Western media tends to ignore China's side and present unbalanced reports.
I like to consider both sides and make up my own mind.

[PhilipA]

I have to say that IMHO The China daily would write what they are told to write by the CCP .

You have to remember that this is for foreign consumption as no Chinese person would read it for the news.

I don't know their reasons for the article but I can assure you that it definitely would not mirror the actual thoughts of the CCP, but be what is probably misinformation directed at foreigners whether in China or abroad.

IMHO and having worked in China on a couple of projects the newspaper would try to misdirect rather than inform.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

I have to say that IMHO The China daily would write what they are told to write by the CCP .

You have to remember that this is for foreign consumption as no Chinese person would read it for the news.

I don't know their reasons for the article but I can assure you that it definitely would not mirror the actual thoughts of the CCP, but be what is probably misinformation directed at foreigners whether in China or abroad.

IMHO and having worked in China on a couple of projects the newspaper would try to misdirect rather than inform.

Regards PhilipA

you might be right Phillip. No doubt some people think the China EV game is big. A American Brian Smelzer "the rise of EVs in China, one particular policy stands head and shoulders above the others. In the early 2010s, the Chinese government announced plans to provide subsidies to encourage buyers to snap up electric cars instead of traditional combustion engine vehicles.
(https://radiichina.com/china-electric-vehicle/)This policy was introduced to offset the higher price of electric vehicles, and the subsidy was as high as 60,000RMB (more than 9,200USD) for people buying fully electric cars. This policy was initially rolled out in five Chinese cities: Shanghai, South China’s Shenzhen, Hangzhou and Hefei near the eastern coast of the country, and Changchun in Northeast China (https://radiichina.com/china-electric-vehicle/)."and

Drew DeSilver Pew Research Center (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/07/todays-electric-vehicle-market-slow-growth-in-u-s-faster-in-china-europe/)
when writing about the Slow US take up stated "But the U.S. represents only about 17% of the world’s total stock of 10.2 million EVs, according to IEA data. China has 44% of all the EVs in the world (more than 4.5 million), and the nearly 3.2 million in Europe account for about 31%."

The numbers seem about right to several other sources.

My kids and local school teachers in China with school three years ago now had hundreds of pictures of two things many might not have noticed. Pollution and EVs

the second link is from RADII (rā’dē-ī’) Claimes to be " an independent platform of artists, writers and creators dedicated to sharing vibrant stories from the rarely explored sides of new China.Founded in 2017 by RADII was founded by Brian A. Wong, former Vice President of Alibaba. We operate with editorial independence."

His former boss Mr Ma is in strife for not towing the CCP party line. I think he is still a billionaire just.

MIT analysis is harsh "
China’s transition to electric vehicles

By 2030, 40 percent of vehicles sold in China will be electric; MIT research finds that despite benefits, the cost to consumers and to society will be substantial.

Nancy W. Stauffer | MIT Energy Initiative
Publication Date:



April 29, 2021"
China’s transition to electric vehicles | MIT News | Massachusetts Institute of Technology (https://news.mit.edu/2021/chinas-transition-electric-vehicles-0429)

The details why MIT thinks it is costly are very interesting

In my case a ICE version of the MG is about 30ish. The EV is about 40ish thousand so the cost is a even 25% for the BEV. $10,000 in fuel and servicing cost savings might take a few years? Add in the new VIC EV tax of course[bigwhistle]

I still think the two teslas in the street are a fascinating cost/time look. $200,000+ two years ago and $70,000 for the one in the garage. While $70,000 give a lot of quiet nice ICE engine options a price change of -65% is remarkable

The two teslas are not the same model so the comparison is flawed. The older one is a model s which starts now at 132,718 which is only -33%

In China's case MIT pointed out "serious urban air pollution, high greenhouse gas emissions, and growing dependence on oil imports." as issues for China. We share a few of those issues as well.

With china suggesting the horrible floods tragedy are 1 in 1000 year floods today I doubt that many changes to the attempts to deal with some of their issues will change. Germany ditto with floods. The US, Canada and Iran with droughts and fires just might feel cost of change much smaller than the cost of not changing.

A bit like the lock down costs which is billions daily or weekly I think. Compared that ongoing cost to having earlier access to some vaccines at just one or two billion - an option we missed so no point grumbling I guess.

Excuse me if you needed tin foil hat for the few last bit. Good night all

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I've been to China too and the China Daily certainly runs a pro-China line, so you have to allow for that, as you do with any media.
The particular report I posted was not written by the China Daily, but merely reprinted by it, summarising two papers the author gave at conferences.
It contained interesting information. China is leading the world in EVs, which is why Biden has told America to get moving and catch up. Even Tesla has built a plant in China.
'Know your enemy' is an old piece of wisdom. We need to put aside the media hysteria and get a lot smarter in our dealings with China, which is rising rapidly.
I have to say that IMHO The China daily would write what they are told to write by the CCP .

You have to remember that this is for foreign consumption as no Chinese person would read it for the news.

I don't know their reasons for the article but I can assure you that it definitely would not mirror the actual thoughts of the CCP, but be what is probably misinformation directed at foreigners whether in China or abroad.

IMHO and having worked in China on a couple of projects the newspaper would try to misdirect rather than inform.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

can the current infrastructure deal with EV demand

"Can today's grid handle electric delivery fleets? Mostly, find NREL researchers"

this was mostly on trucks adding demand and was ontop of EV cars.

Existing grid infrastructure appears ready to handle an influx of electric commercial trucks, according to a new study from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL).
Published in Nature Energy (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-021-00855-0.epdf'sharing_token=fXYvTXdsGJMiCgEIZD7erNRgN0jAj Wel9jnR3ZoTv0OThEo9Tbm90O0Q3FEKb1xDzXD7_W2Lx9_ZF76 DuHgOKCr1Sdz6W2ZSe64KqYyXsgfR9OPADHFef-qHNp1dbehdUdF4LghnDmZw_wIANo61VPqSFCfBvgVz0H1q5R3s pD8Enu8WtQ1JfIB_X514e4fDyT6zcDaPOZohovKui4nKF--7nUcKnKl69ct0TjhPemE%3D&tracking_referrer=www.technologyreview.com), the study looked at increased electric demand from trucks operating relatively short distances, as this appears to be the most feasible starting point for commercial-truck electrification, Brennan Bourlag, lead author of the study, said in an interview with MIT Technology Review (https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/07/09/1028135/electric-trucks-short-distance/).

Researchers modeled the potential demand on electricity substations using data from real-world (diesel) delivery fleets. Of the substations studied, about 80% to 90% could support fleets of up to 100 trucks without the need for significant upgrades, Bourlag said.
That's assuming fleets used the highest-available charging speeds, if they chose lower speeds, the need for infrastructure upgrades would be even less, he said. Getting trucks back on the road quickly will likely require megawatt-scale charging, meaning much greater power demand than current DC fast-charging sites for passenger cars.

Suspect we get a mix of we can and we cannot [biggrin]
Full article (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1132929_can-today-s-grid-handle-electric-delivery-fleets-mostly-find-nrel-researchers)

[Homestar]

100 trucks per substation is bugger all. In the Laverton area alone there must be at least 10,000 trucks - and 2 substations. How’s that going to work?

All the areas where warehousing, etc are is where all the trucks are and the power is decent but not up to that kind of use.

[NavyDiver]

Of interest perhaps is the Vans. UK and eu are rather big. Just walked home from work and went past a Mecr EQA EV I had not seen before. There was a EQC as well. Both are medium hatches SUV style. A delivery driver at the place really was interested in them which had me thinking Vans.

The EV vans at Merc UK are (https://www.mercedes-benz.co.uk/vans/en/electric-vans) interesting.

Little ticklers like "You could reduce your fuel and maintenance costs by up to £2,775 a year*.

Reduce your yearly fuel and maintenance costs
Pay less on taxes and tariffs
Unlock up to £6,000 in government OZEV grants†
Get a free home charge point and installation‡ worth £549

"
Nissan is as well (https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200.html) ,VW but of course (https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/en/electric-vans.html) and others UK and else where just not here.

The maintenance question is very interesting I think.

With thousands plus delivery vehicles driving about here (CITY) traveling a few hundred km at most daily often just sitting still burning fuel, I expect that will be here soon as well.

It is a no brainer segment for reducing costs I think.

[DiscoMick]

If you compare spending $100-150 to fill a vehicle's tank with fuel with $3-4 to recharge an EV, then there is an obvious huge saving, particularly if the charging comes from solar and is effectively free.
Maintenance costs should also be lower since it should normally just involve fluids and brakes.
A tradie could write off any extra cost of buying the EV, the cost of installing the home charging point, and part of the cost of installing home solar to charge it, as a business deduction.
An EV version of a typical tradies' van from Ford, VW or others to run maybe a couple of hundred keys a day, and recharge overnight, sounds like a very good deal.

[scarry]

[QUOTE=DiscoMick;3100049
A tradie could write off any extra cost of buying the EV, the cost of installing the home charging point, and part of the cost of installing home solar to charge it, as a business deduction.
An EV version of a typical tradies' van from Ford, VW or others to run maybe a couple of hundred keys a day, and recharge overnight, sounds like a very good deal.[/QUOTE]

Whether all of that can be written off,i dont know for sure,but i doubt it.A good battery will be needed as the van will be in use all day.Unless its charged from the grid.

The vans dont do those sort of k's loaded.
They may do it empty,driven very slowly,but many need to do well over 200k every day,loaded,Ac on,etc.

And if they miss a charge overnight for whatever reason,maybe a cloudy day and the batteries havent been charged,that will be a work day lost.

No where near reliable enough to be a commercial vehicle to use for work,for most,or probably all tradies or Couriers.

Sure, i think EV's are a great idea,but if they dont have the convenience or cant do the job that we need them to do,they are not worth having.

In fact,as our second car,one will probably turn up,but need to sort out(get out of) our business first.

[Homestar]

Esprinter to start from £52,000 plus VAT, Diesel Sprinter from £24,500 plus VAT. Saving a few thousand quid a year on fuel as claimed would still take 10 years to break even and most businesses don’t keep their vans half that long so purchase price is still a killer. If it was half as much again you’d almost be thinking of it, but at more than double the price that’s a bit steep.

In Aus, Sprinters start from low $40K so the Esprinter will be closer to $90K or more based on this - for the short wheel base, low roof. Add up to $20K on that for the long wheel base, high roof. That’s a lot of money for a delivery van.

[scarry]

I wouldnt go near a Sprinter,VW,or Ford for a work van anyway,particularly as it needs to be ultra reliable,and low maintenance.

Either Jap or Korean are the sales leaders,and have been for many years,in Aus, for good reason.

[DiscoMick]

Seeing lots of Ford Transit vans around here. Prices start from about $48,000.
I see Ford is introducing hybrid versions of some of its vehicles, but haven't seen anything about a hybrid Transit yet.
It will come in time.

[Homestar]

I wouldnt go near a Sprinter,VW,or Ford for a work van anyway,particularly as it needs to be ultra reliable,and low maintenance.

Either Jap or Korean are the sales leaders,and have been for many years,in Aus, for good reason.

Yes, we used to kill Transit vans with amazing regularity when they were field service vehicles. Turbos and flywheel/clutches were made of soft cheese I think, but the really tall gearing also didn’t help especially when we towed with them all the time as well. The good old Hiace was the pick for longevity. Company was too tight to try a Sprinter/Vito/VW so never found out.

[Tombie]

If you compare spending $100-150 to fill a vehicle's tank with fuel with $3-4 to recharge an EV, then there is an obvious huge saving, particularly if the charging comes from solar and is effectively free.
Maintenance costs should also be lower since it should normally just involve fluids and brakes.
A tradie could write off any extra cost of buying the EV, the cost of installing the home charging point, and part of the cost of installing home solar to charge it, as a business deduction.
An EV version of a typical tradies' van from Ford, VW or others to run maybe a couple of hundred keys a day, and recharge overnight, sounds like a very good deal.

Charging power from solar… then “charged overnight”

So which is it??? [emoji41]

A decent battery in an EV would wipe a household system empty by morning. Not to mention the losses of converting back and forth.

Nope. E-tradies will be a while off yet

[NavyDiver]

Charging power from solar… then “charged overnight”

So which is it??? [emoji41]

A decent battery in an EV would wipe a household system empty by morning. Not to mention the losses of converting back and forth.

Nope. E-tradies will be a while off yet
BHP seems to differ? "Australia’s largest miner BHP has described 2020 as an “inflection point” for the rapidly approaching electric vehicle revolution as Elon Musk’s Tesla sold more than half a million battery-powered cars and sales in Europe more than doubled.The ASX-listed mining giant, whose main commodities are iron ore, copper and coal, is seeking to expand its exposure to the minerals that will be increasingly required to power the clean energy age such as nickel and copper, which are two of the ingredients in lithium-ion batteries"

Just charged the wifes tesla for free in yuppy vill - Brunswick and topped up my mg for free at hawthorn while pick up the kids tonight.

Not at all saying power is free- someone paid for it via the windfarm contracts apparently. Fully agree overnight charging is not going to be via our home PV yet. It is odd that the larger battery packs in cars are a lot less than 1/2 the retail battery price for homes. I think the car is 1/4 the cost of a home battery still?

A E-courier was charging at Brunswick! interesting as first I have seen.

[Vern]

Charging power from solar… then “charged overnight”

So which is it??? [emoji41]

A decent battery in an EV would wipe a household system empty by morning. Not to mention the losses of converting back and forth.

Nope. E-tradies will be a while off yetWell a tradie could charge their van at home with a lot of solar, but they wouldn't be out getting many jobs done. Can't see the point really, unless charging at night from the grid.

[DiscoMick]

Its not that simple.
As I'm sure you know, the cost equation is an overall picture involving both putting surplus power into the grid and drawing from the grid when necessary. Hundreds of thousands of people already do this.
A house with solar earns credits by putting surplus power into the grid during the day, and may also charge a home battery pack.
When an EV is plugged in to recharge it can draw from daytime solar, a home battery pack and the grid.
Once the EV is charged it becomes part of the home system.
If the home solar system is big enough it can be profitable.
Talked recently with friends with 15 kw of solar and 15 kw of batteries who have been off the grid for years, running three houses.
There's nothing new about this.


This is an interesting summary of the history of the EV, including the brief period when EVs outsold fossil fuel vehicles.

The lost history of the electric car – and what it tells us about the future of transport | Motoring | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/aug/03/lost-history-electric-car-future-transport?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Vern]

Exactly, its not that simple. How is a tradie supposed to charge the E-van from their solar and battery when they are out working in their E-van all day whilst the sun is shining on their home pv system?
As i said, they'll charge from the grid when they get home in the evening

[PhilipA]

Once surplus day time solar power becomes commonplace from the large scale plants, the feed in tariffs must decline towards Zero.
Aren't they already 2c per Kwh in WA?
Once people come off the attractive feed in tariffs of yesteryear they will get a shock when the next offer is made.
Regards PhilipA

[Vern]

Once surplus day time solar power becomes commonplace from the large scale plants, the feed in tariffs must decline towards Zero.
Aren't they already 2c per Kwh in WA?
Once people come off the attractive feed in tariffs of yesteryear they will get a shock when the next offer is made.
Regards PhilipATariffs have dropped, then risen again, but as the feed in tariff rises, so does the consumption tariff. Shop around and you can get 17c feed in, but consumption goes up to around 36c, ideally you want enough pv to cover your daytime consumption needs, and if you can afford it, to charge a battery as well, then drain that whilst the sun isn't shining.

[scarry]

As i said, they'll charge from the grid when they get home in the evening

Thats if they get home,with the hopeless range they have ATM,home maybe sitting at a charging point somewhere(thats if you can find one,and its not being used by someone else),and waiting hours for it to charge,or on a tilt tray....[bigsad][biggrin]

The tech still has a huge way to go before EV's are used as commercial vehicles.
The weight of the batteries will also be a huge issue,as it will reduce the payload of the vehicle.
Our work vans are not far off their GVM at the moment.

[PhilipA]

I have attached a report on the latest Toyota Mirai.
The thing that stuck out to me was that it carried 142L of hydrogen for a range of less than 700Km as this was an objective. You can see if you look at the video. Also the hydrogen tanks take up about 1/2 the vehicle and the generator is also pretty enormous.

Now a few weeks ago I read about a Hydrogen truck in California and it mentioned in specs what I thought to be an improbably small amount of Hydrogen. I think it was 350 l for a range of 500Km and the price was currently USD16 per litre.
I have to say that I believe Toyota before I believe the truck manufacturer. I would say that someone is fibbing.

Toyota Bet Against Electric Cars. Now It's Stacking the Deck Against Them (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/41790/toyota-bet-against-against-electric-cars-now-its-stacking-the-deck-against-them)
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

Toyota Bet Against Electric Cars. Now It's Stacking the Deck Against Them (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/41790/toyota-bet-against-against-electric-cars-now-its-stacking-the-deck-against-them)
Regards PhilipA

Yota are not silly,they did not become one of the biggest Auto manufacturers,or the biggest, just by falling out of bed.

They produce vehicles that sell in huge numbers,the ones the majority of people want.
In many countries Ev's are not selling well,for many reasons.Hybrids are the huge sellers,and they(Yota) have led the market with them for decades.
Europe is not one of their large markets,where Ev's are selling reasonably well,and suit the market.

My guess is they have Ev's ready to go,and will wait until they sell in droves,then will step in.Probably a smart business decision.
Just like Service stations in Aus, and charging points,they wont install them until over 15% of the vehicles on the roads are EV's.

[Arapiles]

Yota are not silly,they did not become one of the biggest Auto manufacturers,or the biggest, just by falling out of bed.

They produce vehicles that sell in huge numbers,the ones the majority of people want.
In many countries Ev's are not selling well,for many reasons.Hybrids are the huge sellers,and they(Yota) have led the market with them for decades.
Europe is not one of their large markets,where Ev's are selling reasonably well,and suit the market.

My guess is they have Ev's ready to go,and will wait until they sell in droves,then will step in.Probably a smart business decision.
Just like Service stations in Aus, and charging points,they wont install them until over 15% of the vehicles on the roads are EV's.


Keep in mind that Toyota have a range of Priuses, including plug in ones - they're just not sold in Australia.

It's the Nissan e-motors that I want: there's supposed to be an e-XTrail coming out.

[DiscoMick]

Another point in the charging EVs at home debate is that battery banks will be installed in local sub-stations to store surplus solar power generated locally during the daytime and feed it back to local properties at night.
Queensland is currently trialling a pilot program of five of these local battery banks.
So when that happens the tradies EV van would be recharged at night by power drawn from the battery bank at the local sub-station, even if households did not have individual batteries.

[Tombie]

Again, not free, not cheap, not effective - at this stage.

By a significant factor.

The ginormous, massive, phenomenal (point made I reckon) amount of expenditure on infrastructure in the next few years will push power prices up by exponential amounts.

Not just the storage, the distribution networks, the balancing systems, the entire network is needing upgrade to handle this new ideal.

In summer, it’s not unreasonable for the block here (about 20 houses) to be drawing 10kwh each. That’s 200kwh without a single electric vehicle in sight.

The cheapest Tesla burns 18.8kWh/100km at best.
Using a Tesla supercharger that’s $9.78/100km or $7.00ish from a home source. That latter figure is more than 50% of my current diesel bill.
If I did a run to Adelaide and home where I needed Superchargers my fuel bill would be $85.00 and around 2 hours longer to complete the journey.

It would only be $109.00 using diesel and significantly quicker. Also not limited to a set route.

According to Carsguide - It’s $~32 to charge an 85kWh Tesla at the moment.
And that will not even get me 3/4 of the way in Summer. 3x Charges and I’m $96

Now add a similar vehicle to each household.
Assume full charge required.
That local battery storage is now required to throw out 2,300kWh of energy just for 20 homes.

Based on that Victoria’s “big 300MWh” battery could only power 2,600 homes for 1 night…. Compare how much real estate that thing takes up, where do the smaller equivalents even go [emoji3]. We would need to knock the 20th house down on the block just for the battery needed.

There are 18,000 homes in my Small city…
We need a battery 7 times the Vic one just for one night [emoji12]. And let’s not even talk about the plant up the road….

[Tombie]

Tariffs have dropped, then risen again, but as the feed in tariff rises, so does the consumption tariff. Shop around and you can get 17c feed in, but consumption goes up to around 36c, ideally you want enough pv to cover your daytime consumption needs, and if you can afford it, to charge a battery as well, then drain that whilst the sun isn't shining.

Correct, and an 85kw Tesla will make mince meat out of the 15kw battery on the wall [emoji41]

At $10k ish for a battery, to scale up 8 times, and then add an EV cost to the mix, for a max of 10 years use before replacement.

That’s one heck of a lot of coin.

[PhilipA]

Gee it's a pity when realism and facts get into a debate.

What happened to feelings and post modernism?(sarc)
Regards PhilipA

[cripesamighty]

Gee it's a pity when realism and facts get into a debate.

What happened to feelings and post modernism?(sarc)
Regards PhilipA

...Venezuela?

[bigwhistle] :wasntme:

[NavyDiver]

Exactly, its not that simple. How is a tradie supposed to charge the E-van from their solar and battery when they are out working in their E-van all day whilst the sun is shining on their home pv system?
As i said, they'll charge from the grid when they get home in the evening

Off peak power is useful and cheap [thumbsupbig]

On a sour note my MG quirky car is refund/replace as still not giving anything like the range is was paid to do. Interesting as several others who have them get the promised range.

On a really weird EV note - the Tesla cyber truck apparently as a Solar roof option which just might add a tiny 15 miles or 24km if the sun was shining brightly. [bigwhistle]
Some very imaginative thought bubbles

https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/07/Tesla-Cybertruck-solar-roof.jpg?w=2000&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1
Tesla Cybertruck will have solar roof option to add 15 miles of range per day - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2019/11/22/tesla-cybertruck-solar-roof-option-add-range/)

[Homestar]

While off peak power is cheap - it’s not as plentiful as you might think. There’s still a huge amount of off peak load - it actually rivals a hot day as far as power consumption goes.

When we put a town on generators for line maintenance (only from late Autumn to early Spring due to lighter loads) we might as an example run around 6 to 7MW at the start of the day - this will drop dramatically when the sun gets high in the sky and all the solar kicks in - sometimes this can actually kick out the gens on reverse power so we need to run load banks - but if you look at the load profile in the zone sub over those sort of days, the off peak at 11pm will hit 20MW for the same area - something we’d never be able to handle off portable gens, so we can never do overnight shutdowns - which a lot of customers request and think would be easier.

It’s certainly a time when most businesses aren’t using power but still 1000’s are using it for water heating. Adding car charging loads to this would soon start causing brown outs in the evenings.

The exact phase one supply authority manager used when we were discussing mass charging of EV’s was ‘Ain’t gunna happen - there’s not enough power by a long way’

[NavyDiver]

The two bog standard wall plug charges use less power than your or my hot water or fridge when running so I don't see the issues some of you do.


I wonder about "Audi Entering Dakar Rally With This Mean-Looking Electrified SUV" RS Q E-Tron

"Audi is ditching Formula E (https://www.motor1.com/tag/formula-e/) and getting dirty again by announcing an electrified entry for the 2022 Dakar Rally (https://www.motor1.com/tag/dakar-rally/). The image above is the first teaser of what to expect to see kicking up sand through the desert. Plus, the company is teasing a return to Le Mans (https://www.motor1.com/tag/le-mans/). The Four Rings isn't yet offering much info on the rally vehicle's powertrain. It uses an electric drivetrain but has what the company calls an "energy converter" in the form of a turbocharged combustion engine. Going by this description, the setup seems to make the SUV a series hybrid with the gasoline-drinking powerplant functioning as a range extender for charging the batteries when necessary, rather than a pure EV.
The company says that "the aim is to permanently improve the performance of the electric drivetrain and the battery in the years to come," suggesting that this might not be a one-year effort of competing in the Dakar Rally. "The experience gained in this process should then be incorporated into the further development of future electrified production models," Audi says in this project's announcement." Audi Entering Dakar Rally With This Mean-Looking Electrified SUV (https://www.motor1.com/news/457539/audi-entering-dakar-rally-ev/)

Audi say it is an EV. I assume its not a hybrid as suggested in the article ? wait and see I guess. My thoughts is they might use Hydrogen, What ever It will be entertaining

172628

Edit- it is a hybrid not a BEV for FCEV I think "Providing energy for the electric motor is a detuned [B]200kW version of the 2.0-litre turbocharged four-cylinder engine in the brand's DTM touring car (https://www.caradvice.com.au/tag/dtm/), which runs between 4500 and 6000rpm to serve as a generator to charge the bespoke 50kWh high-voltage battery." Link (https://www.caradvice.com.au/968595/audi-rs-q-e-tron-range-extender-hybrid-dakar-rally-challenger-revealed/)

That said we might get a surprise.

[Homestar]

Standard chargers run say 8 amps all night to get an EV close to capacity - so at 11pm a system that’s around 80% capacity without all these chargers on is supposed to cope how?

I’m not anti EV - it ****es me off no end that people think this when I try and point out the physics of charging mass EV’s when I work every day with the grid all these people think will cope no dramas when it simply won’t.

It’s not my opinion, it’s not me being anti renewable or anti EV - it’s just the facts when you look at how the system works and understand it at a fundamental level not just what you can glean off the internet.

Science is the new frontier to hang it on so Engineers that design, build and maintain these systems - who believe me are looking for solutions - just get told we’re lying to the population. I just don’t get it - don’t believe me if you don’t want to but the facts don’t lie - there just isn’t enough power or a way of getting it to homes currently to charge EV’s on mass. Work out the energy potential of petrol, what the electrical equivalent is then work out how much power is needed to replace say half the petrol with electricity - the numbers may surprise you.

Not having a go at anyone in particular but the numbers simply don’t add up - no system in the WORLD can cope with mass EV charging without an expenditure an order of magnitude higher that what is being spent - and no one will accept power prices in the dollars per KWh so what’s the solution?

I don’t know but everyone having EV’s isn’t it. There’s just not enough money to go around to make this work.

[Tombie]

Off peak power doesn’t exist in most of SA.
Often being single Tarif, especially if you have PV.

And it certainly won’t be off-peak once it becomes the time to charge - it will almost become the peak drain period.

[NavyDiver]

Off peak power doesn’t exist in most of SA.
Often being single Tarif, especially if you have PV.

And it certainly won’t be off-peak once it becomes the time to charge - it will almost become the peak drain period.

Supply of power is a critical issue for Fridges for me Vaccine ones and growing up and family still in places which have far less power stability than city types I see the issues promise. My view on another topic allowing local hydrogen production from poo just might be a option I hope.

back on EVs. Yanks get their skates on "

U.S. moves to phase out gas cars





President Biden announced a plan that would rapidly shift Americans from gasoline-powered cars to electric vehicles over the next decade.






The plan, which calls for more stringent auto pollution rules and increases mileage standards (https://nl.nytimes.com/f/newsletter/LMIDsEZBh7xt4X6VH7h_aQ~~/AAAAAQA~/RgRi7sFeP4QLAWh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lm55dGltZXMuY29tLzIwMj EvMDgvMDUvY2xpbWF0ZS9iaWRlbi10YWlscGlwZS1lbWlzc2lv bnMtZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZXMuaHRtbD9jYW1wYWlnbl9pZD 0zJmVtYz1lZGl0X21iYXVfMjAyMTA4MDYmaW5zdGFuY2VfaWQ9 MzcyMDAmbmw9bW9ybmluZy1icmllZmluZyUzQS1hdXN0cmFsaW EtZWRpdGlvbiZyZWdpX2lkPTEyNjg2ODExMiZzZWdtZW50X2lk PTY1NDY4JnRlPTEmdXNlcl9pZD1iYjczZmU4OGNkZTNkMTQ1OD I4NzcxZTRlZjRkYzk1ZFcDbnl0QgphDF48DGEKGvnrUhRqYW1l c2phYjQ1QGdtYWlsLmNvbVgEAAAAAA~~), sets a target that half of all vehicles sold in the U.S. be electric by 2030. The three largest automakers signed onto the plan on the condition that Congress passes an infrastructure bill that includes funding for a national network of electric vehicle charging stations.




"
Plenty of Issues like my below par and inconsistent range. About to chat with Ringwood mg re an overdue resolution. First have to start testing my work power for a item spiking 7000w on start up from a black start tests. Then nurse update for here on a vaccine super day OMG my staff are going to kill me soon. I am in running shorts as I am running away for a medical appointment - review by a T.A.C. surgeon. Bet we get to chat about running and covid a lot more than my pelvis and leg some how :) Off topic occurs in medical settings as well. I wonder if I can being EVs into the discussion?

Have a great day all

[PhilipA]

Thereis an article on the internet today "British MPs protest Mandatory EV introduction"
It seems Boris's woke girlfriend has been buzzing in his ear and the rest of the government may not agree.
Same with phasing out gas heating of houses in UK. They just realised it will cost 10s of thousands for each house and the electricity system also will not cope. Whoops.
Regards PhilipA`

[DiscoMick]

I'm not having a go at you or anyone, but this is clearly the way the world is going.
You're spot on the grid isn't ready yet. The point is the planning is being done to change the grid, connect it better and build many new renewable generators with storage. ANEMO is planning for the grid to be net zero emissions by 2050.
In 20 years time today's arguments are likely to be regarded as quaintly outdated.
It's interesting to watch how this revolution is happening.
Standard chargers run say 8 amps all night to get an EV close to capacity - so at 11pm a system that’s around 80% capacity without all these chargers on is supposed to cope how?

I’m not anti EV - it ****es me off no end that people think this when I try and point out the physics of charging mass EV’s when I work every day with the grid all these people think will cope no dramas when it simply won’t.

It’s not my opinion, it’s not me being anti renewable or anti EV - it’s just the facts when you look at how the system works and understand it at a fundamental level not just what you can glean off the internet.

Science is the new frontier to hang it on so Engineers that design, build and maintain these systems - who believe me are looking for solutions - just get told we’re lying to the population. I just don’t get it - don’t believe me if you don’t want to but the facts don’t lie - there just isn’t enough power or a way of getting it to homes currently to charge EV’s on mass. Work out the energy potential of petrol, what the electrical equivalent is then work out how much power is needed to replace say half the petrol with electricity - the numbers may surprise you.

Not having a go at anyone in particular but the numbers simply don’t add up - no system in the WORLD can cope with mass EV charging without an expenditure an order of magnitude higher that what is being spent - and no one will accept power prices in the dollars per KWh so what’s the solution?

I don’t know but everyone having EV’s isn’t it. There’s just not enough money to go around to make this work.

[Tombie]

Thanks goodness I’ll be close to dead by then.
I better organise a burial, doubt there will be enough power for a crematorium- unless it’s a solar oven [emoji41][emoji56]


Seriously though AEMO couldn’t organise a **** up in a brewery.

Nobody is going to want to wear the pricing the enormous grid upgrade will require, not the ongoing R&M on batteries, blades, panels, structures.

I might sit down some time and work out using current data, the energy requirement of our mine fleet. I’m pretty confident it’s going to be big!

[johnp38]

Standard chargers run say 8 amps all night to get an EV close to capacity - so at 11pm a system that’s around 80% capacity without all these chargers on is supposed to cope how?

I’m not anti EV - it ****es me off no end that people think this when I try and point out the physics of charging mass EV’s when I work every day with the grid all these people think will cope no dramas when it simply won’t.

I got rid of my overnight 15 amp 11pm energy soaker HWS, for a 5 amp run during day (when my solar system is being useful) Heat Pump Hot Water System.

So my simple minded theory is I have freed up my overnight use to charge my non existent (well, until I fit hub motors to the disco) lektrik car.

A few more doing this (and it is happening with solar uptake anyway) should help somewhat ?

[DiscoMick]

Yep, once you have solar, the trick is to move consumption to the daytime and minimise night time demand.
We have solar hot water, so that's daytime.
With hindsight, we would have been better to have installed a heat pump and spent the extra money on more solar to power it.
You learn with time.

I got rid of my overnight 15 amp 11pm energy soaker HWS, for a 5 amp run during day (when my solar system is being useful) Heat Pump Hot Water System.

So my simple minded theory is I have freed up my overnight use to charge my non existent (well, until I fit hub motors to the disco) lektrik car.

A few more doing this (and it is happening with solar uptake anyway) should help somewhat ?

[PhilipA]

I cannot remember the forum member who has one on order.

However I believe I predicted many months ago that it was "vapourware".

Tesla Cybertruck Production Delayed Until 2022 | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/41886/tesla-cybertruck-production-delayed-until-2022)

Regards PhilipA

[Eevo]

I cannot remember the forum member who has one on order.

However I believe I predicted many months ago that it was "vapourware".

Tesla Cybertruck Production Delayed Until 2022 | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/41886/tesla-cybertruck-production-delayed-until-2022)

Regards PhilipA


think it was tombie

[scarry]

With hindsight, we would have been better to have installed a heat pump and spent the extra money on more solar to power it.
You learn with time.

i wouldnt go near a heat pump,we fix them regularly.
Continual repairs are not uncommon and often expensive.They are also complicated compared to the mainstream HW units on the market.
Although a longer warranty will help.
A solar HW or old school with a heater will outlast them by a huge margin.

We have had solar HW at this place for 20yrs,and the last place for 22yrs as well.
And thats with no maintenance or repairs,apart from cleaning the panels annually.
Although at this place in winter it is shaded by trees,so we have to use the booster very occasionally.

[Tombie]

I cannot remember the forum member who has one on order.

However I believe I predicted many months ago that it was "vapourware".

Tesla Cybertruck Production Delayed Until 2022 | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/41886/tesla-cybertruck-production-delayed-until-2022)

Regards PhilipA

Yes, we still have an allocated production slot.
Not in any rush

[Tombie]

We have also put our names down for a Rivian.

Will see what comes if it.

[Vern]

Yep, once you have solar, the trick is to move consumption to the daytime and minimise night time demand.
We have solar hot water, so that's daytime.
With hindsight, we would have been better to have installed a heat pump and spent the extra money on more solar to power it.
You learn with time.That all depends on what solar hot water you go for. Something like an Apricus will heat from the sun for 8-9 months of the year down south with no need to boost it unless the weather is really bad for a long period of time

[PhilipA]

As my off peak 350l Rheem is now 15 years old, I recently did a bit of a cost benefit analysis.

It costs about $40 a quarter to run the Rheem and a new one will cost about $1k.
So I am looking at alternatives.
My house cannot use solar hot water as for 6 months of the year it is completely in shade and 12 months shaded by neighbour's trees.

I recently did the an exercise on using an LPG instantaneous using manufacturer numbers, and 15 minutes per day and it would cost roughly $1000 per year to run one!!!!!! Almost 10 times the cost of the off peak.

Now maybe off peak will not exist in a few years time, but how long I do not know.

I guess some form of instantaneous electric is the go. I read about a Flash heat unit produced in Melbourne some time ago but nothing since.
The capital cost was high but operating cost low.

I have rejected the idea of a heat pump due to the complication, noise, and poor reliability. I recall about 10-15 years ago the commonwealth Government paid for multiple units in Caravan Parks etc. I remember at Cape Hillsborough they had about 8 of them and only one or two were working at a time. A colossal waste of money.

So what is the best instantaneous to get. I have usually very small demand using it only for one shpower a day. My Diswasher has it's own heater, but sometimes we have guests and the second bathroom is used, and what about the sink?
I just hope I get another 5 years from my off peak.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

As my off peak 350l Rheem is now 15 years old, I recently did a bit of a cost benefit analysis.

It costs about $40 a quarter to run the Rheem and a new one will cost about $1k.
So I am looking at alternatives.
My house cannot use solar hot water as for 6 months of the year it is completely in shade and 12 months shaded by neighbour's trees.

I recently did the an exercise on using an LPG instantaneous using manufacturer numbers, and 15 minutes per day and it would cost roughly $1000 per year to run one!!!!!! Almost 10 times the cost of the off peak.

Now maybe off peak will not exist in a few years time, but how long I do not know.

I guess some form of instantaneous electric is the go. I read about a Flash heat unit produced in Melbourne some time ago but nothing since.
The capital cost was high but operating cost low.

I have rejected the idea of a heat pump due to the complication, noise, and poor reliability. I recall about 10-15 years ago the commonwealth Government paid for multiple units in Caravan Parks etc. I remember at Cape Hillsborough they had about 8 of them and only one or two were working at a time. A colossal waste of money.

So what is the best instantaneous to get. I have usually very small demand using it only for one shower a day. My Diswasher has it's own heater, but sometimes we have guests and the second bathroom is used, and what about the sink?
I just hope I get another 5 years from my off peak.
Regards PhilipA

I have sanden heat pumps for heating hot water and hydronic heating. They are both great and a PITA. The PITA is the person selling them to do more than Sanden designed each for. I have multiple into two tanks. Sandan is One heat pump to one tank. Mine are working easily heating the house and also ever ending hot water IF I cannot chase the kids out of the shower!! :)

The noise of the 5 Sanden heat pumps is a lot less that our fridge. The heat pumps out side can not be heard inside at all- The fridge is humming in my ear now. My nephew got a cheap heat pump installed a year ago. Suspect his might not have the reliability and it is louder and not as efficient as mine.

For your use I appreciate the higher initial cost might not see cost recovery as quickly as mine was.

Sanden Hot Water Heat Pumps - Energy Efficient Hot Water Systems (https://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/)


6 year warranty on Heat pump and 15 on tank - Suspect the heat pump is very similar to all the better quality spit systems. They are basically the same technology.

Back on EVs. The marathon accompanied by a Toyota FCEV yesterday and today was very cool. A lot cooler than the runners. [wink11]

I did consider GAS several years ago before deciding on the Heat pumps. A family member who works in electricity and gas had predicted the issue with gas occurring now. While off peak electricity is not guarantees; We know for a fact peaks and troughs in both supply and demand for electricity has been used by industry and others to take and use the cheap power when it is available. Suspect that will become more common not less common with changes allowing feeding surge pricing to meet high demand periods already in place or planing.
The gas news OS is interesting

"Natural gas, used to generate electricity and heat homes, was abundant and cheap during much of the last decade amid a boom in supply from the U.S. to Australia. That came crashing to a halt this year as demand drastically outpaced new supply. European gas rates reached a record this week, while deliveries of the liquefied fuel to Asia are near an all-time high for this time of year."
The Era of Cheap Natural Gas Ends as Prices Surge by 1,000% (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-06/the-era-of-cheap-natural-gas-ends-as-prices-surge-by-1-000)

[scarry]

I have rejected the idea of a heat pump due to the complication, noise, and poor reliability. I recall about 10-15 years ago the commonwealth Government paid for multiple units in Caravan Parks etc. I remember at Cape Hillsborough they had about 8 of them and only one or two were working at a time. A colossal waste of money.

I can beat that,we went to a commercial site about 6 weeks ago,11 out of 12 were not working,luckily they had gas HWS as backup.
PCB's,compresser capaciters,sensors,defrost solenoids the usual culprits,with the occasional faulty compressor and refrigerant leaks, as well.

There is another commercial site we havent got to yet that has 6 out of 6 not going,also with gas backup.

The gas will trip out when the power goes off,and when the building goes into fire mode,and has to be manually reset,as per regs,so they soon know when the back up HWS doesnt work.

Have never worked on a Sanden,seems they are on Co2,so will operate at huge pressures.
If they operate same sort of tech as split systems,with inverter compressers,numerous PCB's,etc,no doubt repair costs will be extremely expensive,and may not be viable to repair,same as most wall split system AC units.
Hopefully parts are in stock,one wouldnt want to be waiting 6 weeks.[bigsad]
Good they have a 6yr warranty and a pro rata of 15 and seems they are pretty efficient going by the data.

I wonder what sort of cost are they installed, compared to an equivalent electric HWS?

They are a bit like EVs,will suit some but not others.

[NavyDiver]

I can beat that,we went to a commercial site about 6 weeks ago,11 out of 12 were not working,luckily they had gas HWS as backup.
PCB's,compresser capaciters,sensors,defrost solenoids the usual culprits,with the occasional faulty compressor and refrigerant leaks, as well.

There is another commercial site we havent got to yet that has 6 out of 6 not going,also with gas backup.

The gas will trip out when the power goes off,and when the building goes into fire mode,and has to be manually reset,as per regs,so they soon know when the back up HWS doesnt work.

Have never worked on a Sanden,seems they are on Co2,so will operate at huge pressures.
If they operate same sort of tech as split systems,with inverter compressers,numerous PCB's,etc,no doubt repair costs will be extremely expensive,and may not be viable to repair,same as most wall split system AC units.
Hopefully parts are in stock,one wouldnt want to be waiting 6 weeks.[bigsad]
Good they have a 6yr warranty and a pro rata of 15 and seems they are pretty efficient going by the data.

I wonder what sort of cost are they installed, compared to an equivalent electric HWS?

They are a bit like EVs,will suit some but not others.

Frost are a possible No No for heat pumps- the put out a lot of very cold air. If it is already at or close to zero ice can form on the Heat pump fan. Just onces here but frosts are very rare and location very good. It is a issue to be aware of.

[scarry]

Frost are a possible No No for heat pumps- the put out a lot of very cold air. If it is already at or close to zero ice can form on the Heat pump fan. Just onces here but frosts are very rare and location very good. It is a issue to be aware of.

The ones i have seen have a de ice cycle to keep the frost off the evaporator,similar to an AC.
Ice on the evap will definitely reduce capacity.

Rare for frosts here in Brisbane,anyway,but we do get them on occasions.

I think Rick130 has worked on some in the Hunter Valley,i presume frosts would be pretty common there.[bigsad]

Talking about them putting out a lot of cold air,i know where there are 8 huge commercial units in a plant room in a commercial building,the consultant on that job obviously had no idea.[biggrin][bigsad]

A few months later three large exhaust fans were fitted to the plant room,but they still had issues with condensation on the ductwork and plant room walls and floors.[bigsad]

Edit Sort of defeates the purpose,use HW Heat pumps,then have three huge fans running and wasting power to keep them operating.

[vnx205]

I had a heat pump HWS in Yass (same climate as Canberra) for several years. It performed faultlessly.
I now have a had one in Tuross Head for several years and it has also been faultless and convenient. If I know I am going to be away for a week or so, I turn it off at the meter box. If I return by about sunset and switch it on there is enough hot water for a couple of showers by bedtime.
I know that in some commercial applications people have had problems, but I have no complaints.

[simonmelb]

Have a read on the MyEfficient Electric House Facebook group - lots of very experienced professionals plus thousands of householders very happy with better quality heat pump HWS (Sanden and Reclaim mostly).

But with reduced solar FIT and solar systems cheaper now, a normal resistive electric HWS may be cheaper to run and much more reliable?

Or if you have 3 phase an instantaneous Steibel maybe the go for low usage.

[Homestar]

Mum's had one for years - works great, but geez it's noisy. Assuming newer units are quieter but as the HWS backed onto the spare room, I had to wear earplugs at night when staying there as the drone outside was quite annoying. They were sold it as being 'As quiet as a refrigerator' - if my fridge made that sort of noise I'd assume it's about to need replacing. [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

Can anyone advise how much it costs per month/or quarter to run a heat pump H/W?

Ideally with 2 people in house.

My storage 350L costs $40 per quarter on off peak 1.
Regards PhilipA

[disco gazza]

I had a small (125ltr) electric tank in the garage when I first bought my place in Tassie.
After searching all the alternatives, I had a Bosch 3000 compress heat pump 270 ltr put in.
My electric bill for hot water dropped around 65%.
You can program it for when it comes on/off 7/365 days a year.
Always got hot water and it sits outside my ensuite. When I pass it when its on,you get a low humming sound out of it,walk a few feet away and you cant hear it.
Think the all up cost of install was just shy of 4G, but it is worth it.Tank was around 3350 I think,might be a bit cheaper on the mainland.

cheers
DG

[NavyDiver]

Took my quirky EV back this morning for not getting the promised range I paid for or not charging correctly. almost certain it is a Battery B.M.S. software.

They gave me a new one while they test what is wrong. I had for a moment thought my Disco was about to be fired up again [bigwhistle]

Interesting to see a EV range database suggesting mine has range of 220km which is 40km below the advertised range of 266km?

The database also had a probably real "between 155 - 335 km" for the MG XS ev. A merc not yet here in Australia had "between 470 - 895 km" That's a Mercedes EQS 450+

An in theory Tesla truck (2022) had "between 540 - 1080 km" Adding the 200Kwh battery in the specs for that is HUGE compared my puny 42KwH one.

Range of full electric vehicles cheatsheet - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car)

EV Range claims are in my view a lot like hot air? Ditto for economy on petrol and diesel which is dependent on who, how and where the car/truck is driven of course.

WLTP was supposed put an end to fantasy fuel economy figures? (World harmonised Light vehicle Testing Procedure)
It is "At 30 minutes test cycle, cars are driven at low (up to 60km/h), medium (up to 80km/h), high (up 100km/h) and very high (beyond 130km/h) speeds."
Shame Melb is still in Lock down. A run to Geelong or the Wurdi Youang (You Yangs) and back to see if the new MG did the same as mine would be very interesting. Perhaps Perhaps Perhaps later this week.

Will WLTP put an end to fantasy fuel economy figures? (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/will-wltp-put-an-end-to-fantasy-fuel-economy-figures)

[Homestar]

It's good they are taking your issues seriously, but on claimed range I think OEM's need to be much more upfront if they want to get more people into them. Range anxiety is a huge issue for most people looking at EV's and seeing these sort of reports seems to reinforce this - there are heaps of similar threads on other forums/Reddit/etc.

Problem is none of the manufactures want to be seen as 'under performing' in this department so they all lie through their teeth - same as they do for ICE fuel economy, but most don't see this as an issue as there's always another servo just around the corner.

Now I know it will never happen but some legislation around real life performance for all OEM's for both ICE and EV's would be great - maybe to go with a lemon law that had some teeth - the industry really needs a shake up - they are a law unto themselves.

Hope they sort your quirky little car - would be good to hear you report back with 'I made it to Geelong and back on a charge' at some stage. [smilebigeye]

[Tombie]

Problem will always be users.

Some want it freezing cold or boiling hot in cab.
Some have lead feet
Some drive in hilly areas a lot
Some run vehicles essentially empty other carry quite a bit in the vehicle.

I know when we looked at a few EVs we can make Adelaide - on a nice day, bugger all AC operating.
Make it a hot day and AC on full and we wouldn’t make it to Redhill

[DiscoMick]

Seem to be a wide range of ways EV range is calculated, depending on factors such as what mix of urban and highway speeds is used, aircon on or off and the driving style. Same is true of ICE vehicles, of course.

How Is Electric Car Range Calculated? (https://insideevs.com/news/439290/how-is-electric-car-range-calculated/)

[DiscoMick]

I was impressed by the number of EVs in that link you quoted, most not even available in Australia. Shows how far behind the pack we are here.

Range of full electric vehicles cheatsheet - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car)
Took my quirky EV back this morning for not getting the promised range I paid for or not charging correctly. almost certain it is a Battery B.M.S. software.

They gave me a new one while they test what is wrong. I had for a moment thought my Disco was about to be fired up again [bigwhistle]

Interesting to see a EV range database suggesting mine has range of 220km which is 40km below the advertised range of 266km?

The database also had a probably real "between 155 - 335 km" for the MG XS ev. A merc not yet here in Australia had "between 470 - 895 km" That's a Mercedes EQS 450+

An in theory Tesla truck (2022) had "between 540 - 1080 km" Adding the 200Kwh battery in the specs for that is HUGE compared my puny 42KwH one.

Range of full electric vehicles cheatsheet - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car)

EV Range claims are in my view a lot like hot air? Ditto for economy on petrol and diesel which is dependent on who, how and where the car/truck is driven of course.

WLTP was supposed put an end to fantasy fuel economy figures? (World harmonised Light vehicle Testing Procedure)
It is "At 30 minutes test cycle, cars are driven at low (up to 60km/h), medium (up to 80km/h), high (up 100km/h) and very high (beyond 130km/h) speeds."
Shame Melb is still in Lock down. A run to Geelong or the Wurdi Youang (You Yangs) and back to see if the new MG did the same as mine would be very interesting. Perhaps Perhaps Perhaps later this week.

Will WLTP put an end to fantasy fuel economy figures? (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/will-wltp-put-an-end-to-fantasy-fuel-economy-figures)

[Homestar]

Problem will always be users.

Some want it freezing cold or boiling hot in cab.
Some have lead feet
Some drive in hilly areas a lot
Some run vehicles essentially empty other carry quite a bit in the vehicle.

I know when we looked at a few EVs we can make Adelaide - on a nice day, bugger all AC operating.
Make it a hot day and AC on full and we wouldn’t make it to Redhill

Yes, but the same as a realistic average fuel consumption for an ICE vehicle isn’t hard to work out based on asking a few people who own them - and this figure also isn’t close to what the car makers claims are so they are deliberately fudging the figures - not trying to get close as that’s what they all do and none of them are going to be the first to change that. Same for EV - BS claims that can be proved to be BS just by looking at some real world examples after a few months of that vehicle being in the real world.

It wouldn’t be hard to come up with an average that was closer to the truth but there is no will to do it.

As I said, with EV’s this issue is compounded as when I read post after post of owners not getting within a bulls roar of the claimed figures, it just hurts EV’s in general.

There are plenty of EV’s that claim 350 to 400KM - which is the distance to my Mums place - no charging stations to be seen either out there, so would I buy an EV that claims 400KM when it will probably only do 300 and leave me stranded before I get there or do I need to lash out on something that claims 500 plus KM - there aren’t too many of those about and the prices are eye watering - or do I just buy a new ICE vehicle as even if I bought one with a 100KM range there are 8 servos along the way.

Answer is pretty obvious and I’m far from the only one who is worried about range for these sort of trips. In 10 years their may be a charger somewhere along there but I’ll be retiring about then and who knows where Mum will be.

[Tombie]

I was impressed by the number of EVs in that link you quoted, most not even available in Australia. Shows how far behind the pack we are here.

Range of full electric vehicles cheatsheet - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/range-electric-car)

We aren’t behind anything - they’re completely impractical to most users and beyond the financial scope of many others.

Nothing to do with behind.

Right tool for the right job.

[NavyDiver]

We aren’t behind anything - they’re completely impractical to most users and beyond the financial scope of many others.

Nothing to do with behind.

Right tool for the right job.


Agree with that Tombie. The cheapish relative MG should be just fine for around 50-200km if they fix the software or give me another one or money back.

My right tool needed 10% of my times is a Disco range 800+km with 4WD and 3.5 t tow capacity - Either Solid state batteries or Hydrogen with wide spread recharge/ refueling capacity a must before wide spread long range tool is in our yards. Given 90% of cars on the road are NOT in need of those bits I think the take up is likely to be a lost faster than many think. Disco keys could come out any time. Why pay for fuel and servicing now I can get my 90% sad sack average drives done for almost no power cost with all the freebie charge points which are likely to charge once a lot of cars want them[bigwhistle]

[TonyC]

Yes, but the same as a realistic average fuel consumption for an ICE vehicle isn’t hard to work out based on asking a few people who own them - and this figure also isn’t close to what the car makers claims are so they are deliberately fudging the figures - not trying to get close as that’s what they all do and none of them are going to be the first to change that. Same for EV - BS claims that can be proved to be BS just by looking at some real world examples after a few months of that vehicle being in the real world.

It wouldn’t be hard to come up with an average that was closer to the truth but there is no will to do it.

As I said, with EV’s this issue is compounded as when I read post after post of owners not getting within a bulls roar of the claimed figures, it just hurts EV’s in general.

There are plenty of EV’s that claim 350 to 400KM - which is the distance to my Mums place - no charging stations to be seen either out there, so would I buy an EV that claims 400KM when it will probably only do 300 and leave me stranded before I get there or do I need to lash out on something that claims 500 plus KM - there aren’t too many of those about and the prices are eye watering - or do I just buy a new ICE vehicle as even if I bought one with a 100KM range there are 8 servos along the way.

Answer is pretty obvious and I’m far from the only one who is worried about range for these sort of trips. In 10 years their may be a charger somewhere along there but I’ll be retiring about then and who knows where Mum will be.But with ICE cars it's not the makers fudging anything, thay are doing a government mandated test, and providing the results as required by law.

Are EV range numbers the same? IE: government mandated tests?

The test needs to change, so if I get in a car and drive from Melb to Sydney on a mid 20s day with the aircon on 18, on cruse control at 110km/h, I will achieve the extra urban number.

At the moment it's just a tool to compare one car to another.

Tony

[Tombie]

Agree with that Tombie. The cheapish relative MG should be just fine for around 50-200km if they fix the software or give me another one or money back.

My right tool needed 10% of my times is a Disco range 800+km with 4WD and 3.5 t tow capacity - Either Solid state batteries or Hydrogen with wide spread recharge/ refueling capacity a must before wide spread long range tool is in our yards. Given 90% of cars on the road are NOT in need of those bits I think the take up is likely to be a lost faster than many think. Disco keys could come out any time. Why pay for fuel and servicing now I can get my 90% sad sack average drives done for almost no power cost with all the freebie charge points which are likely to charge once a lot of cars want them[bigwhistle]

Good post

I’ll counter with - the price of the vehicle.

You purchased a $43k vehicle to reduce costs [emoji41]
And now have - 2 vehicles, 2 regos & 2 insurances

That’s over 30,000l of fuel or 300,000km of driving. [emoji41]

Where’s the right tool in this case?

It wasn’t emissions - to make it likely exceeded what just keeping the Disco and one less other vehicle off the road. [emoji851]

[NavyDiver]

Good post

I’ll counter with - the price of the vehicle.

You purchased a $43k vehicle to reduce costs [emoji41]
And now have - 2 vehicles, 2 regos & 2 insurances

That’s over 30,000l of fuel or 300,000km of driving. [emoji41]

Where’s the right tool in this case?

It wasn’t emissions - to make it likely exceeded what just keeping the Disco and one less other vehicle off the road. [emoji851]
Fully agree again yet Sir No need to counter your points are all valid

add I still hope I can refit my Disco and not by a several sqillion$ hydrogen first of class 4wd. [biggrin] Ditto for my boat motor which is as Mario pointed out very bloody grubby- He did not say it in that way.[thumbsupbig] Its a 2 stroke in V.G.C.. I would like to put at Electric motor on top of the item removing the motor only. I am a dreamer as I fully appreciate no suitable affordable Fuel Cell or battery option is available to provide the range needed to get me 40 km off shore and home again safely at present. I asked if the boat shop could give a price estimate for my very well maintained 2 stroke motor a few months ago. It wasn't pretty!

Insurance is happily and agreeably parked. Negotiation works some times.

30,000 litres of fuel is not considering the residual value of my Disco or MG perhaps? still both still worth a lot more than the boat motor[bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

Understand that bit.

I have 2 very sweet V4 115 2 strokes.
They sing nicely - just too bloody noisy for a day out and about.

Boat is going in for a refurb soon and 2 new 4 strokes will go on the back to get the noise down.

Those alone are $30k the pair, hate to think how much to go electric and have the range to get 50km offshore.

[PhilipA]

Those alone are $30k the pair, hate to think how much to go electric and have the range to get 50km offshore.


The motors wouldn't be too bad.
It's the batteries that will kill the budget and weight.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

The motors wouldn't be too bad.
It's the batteries that will kill the budget and weight.
Regards PhilipA

On the money Philip

1kW replaces 3hp!
"

This ensures as little energy as possible is wasted. Some modern electric drive systems have an overall efficiency of up to 50%, whereas in comparison a petrol motor has an overall efficiency of less than 10%
– Combustion engines need reduction gears. Because of the losses associated with gearing, many electric drives eliminate it by using low RPM, high-torque motors

"

The 2 stoke PITA in my case is well known now (https://ecoboats.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Comparative-Assessment-Small-Marine-Engines.pdf) not when I brought it

On the bright side The Motors are ready (https://ecoboats.com.au/products/electric-motors/bellmarine-inboard-motors/) for the power supplies which might be available via several larger manufactures all ramping up Fuel Cells capacity now and Soid state batteries perhaps.

If the 3 to 1 conversions is correct I think a 30ish kw motor may be enough for me. Power needed for 20 hours is a requirement I feel for safety so I cannot do it with any current battery. Current Fuel Cells- hydrogen or ammonia are still to pricey.

I'd likely go to ammonia fuel cell as its amiable to easy transport and storage. Its all about the price.

[PhilipA]

The biggest problem with fuel cells is that the Hydrogen tanks require an enormous volume compared to petrol.

Have a look at the Toyota Mirai video and you will see that about 40-50% of the internal volume of the car is Hydrogen tank for under 350Km range. Note Toyota say they are "targetting" 350Km range so it may be quite a bit less..

At least it would be something to do with that empty bilge , but you had better have a very efficient bilge blower!

Regards PhilipA

[Don 130]

i wouldnt go near a heat pump,we fix them regularly.
Continual repairs are not uncommon and often expensive.They are also complicated compared to the mainstream HW units on the market.
Although a longer warranty will help.
A solar HW or old school with a heater will outlast them by a huge margin.

We have had solar HW at this place for 20yrs,and the last place for 22yrs as well.
And thats with no maintenance or repairs,apart from cleaning the panels annually.
Although at this place in winter it is shaded by trees,so we have to use the booster very occasionally.

When we found our solar hot water tank weeping we got it replaced with the same Solahart unit because the old one was 30 years old. I gave the old collector panel to someone on here for his bush shack.

Don.

[Don 130]

i wouldnt go near a heat pump,we fix them regularly.
Continual repairs are not uncommon and often expensive.They are also complicated compared to the mainstream HW units on the market.
Although a longer warranty will help.
A solar HW or old school with a heater will outlast them by a huge margin.

We have had solar HW at this place for 20yrs,and the last place for 22yrs as well.
And thats with no maintenance or repairs,apart from cleaning the panels annually.
Although at this place in winter it is shaded by trees,so we have to use the booster very occasionally.

When we found our solar hot water tank weeping we got it replaced with the same Solahart unit because the old one was 30 years old. I gave the old collector panel to someone on here for his bush shack. The new one was $4,000.00 installed. If it also lasts 30 years, it'll be very good value.

Don.

[scarry]

When we found our solar hot water tank weeping we got it replaced with the same Solahart unit because the old one was 30 years old. I gave the old collector panel to someone on here for his bush shack. The new one was $4,000.00 installed. If it also lasts 30 years, it'll be very good value.

Don.

Pulled an old Solarhart off the roof of the youngest sons place today,it failed about 12 months ago.Bloody difficult job.
Quote for new one was around $4K fitted as well,elecric was $1200,fitted by a mate.

When he bought the place there was a reciept for the old Solahart.
It was fitted 1976,$645 plus $150 for install.[bighmmm]

So 44 yrs old when it failed,bloody amazing

[DiscoMick]

WA is getting serious about EV charging stations.

https://twitter.com/10NewsFirstPER/status/1427495570109726720's=19

[PhilipA]

I was having a browse of Carsales a couple of nights ago, and saw something to me quite interesting.
There are 57 Nissan Leafs from $45-80K on Carsales and lots of them are obviously Demos from there almost non existent mileage.
Some of these are 2019 models and lots of 2020 models.
What does this tell me?
Nobody is buying them at a time when all cars are in short supply. You cannot get a Hilux for reported 9 months.

Nissan LEAF cars between $45,000 & $80,000 for sale in New South Wales - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/nissan/leaf/new-south-wales-state/between-45000-80000/)

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

quirky Mg is still being investigated for its below par range. The brand new one gave me a chuckle and informed me a lot.

It was a DID YOU Know moment for me. Honestly surprised to find the range on a brand new load MGEV went from 210 fully charged to 260 fully charged. The only difference was HVAC turned off.

It seems impossible HVAC would impact really for 50km range so it may be a software issue. If it was really hot and HVAC was working over time to cool or really cold and HVAC was over busy trying to heat?? As it was on lowest possible setting I am interested and happy I might have a bit of my own answer. Took the Disco for a drive yesterday to pick up something. It felt rather like the 3 ish tonnes it is

WLTP is a lot clearer for me after reading. (Below) Oddly I assume real world would include A-con. Happy with my window down or on the bike with no widows at all so playing with the new one over the next 260km will be interesting plus.

[B]What does the WLTP mean for motorists?
Grafik: Nummerierung Kapitel WLTP Q & A - hier 06
Even though the WLTP cannot depict the full range of actual vehicle usage, it provides a better basis of information for making decisions when buying a car by providing a greater approximation to real-world driving conditions.
WLTP are always carried out with the air conditioning system switched off. is true.
https://www.vda.de/en/topics/environmen ... -WLTP.html
(https://www.vda.de/en/topics/environment-and-climate/Global-WLTP-roll-out-for-more-realistic-results-in-fuel-consumption/WLTP-How-realistic-is-the-WLTP.html)

[Tombie]

Yeah. Current draw on EV HVAC is rather high, even on low settings.

[Arapiles]

I was having a browse of Carsales a couple of nights ago, and saw something to me quite interesting.
There are 57 Nissan Leafs from $45-80K on Carsales and lots of them are obviously Demos from there almost non existent mileage.
Some of these are 2019 models and lots of 2020 models.
What does this tell me?
Nobody is buying them at a time when all cars are in short supply. You cannot get a Hilux for reported 9 months.

Nissan LEAF cars between $45,000 & $80,000 for sale in New South Wales - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/nissan/leaf/new-south-wales-state/between-45000-80000/)

Regards PhilipA


Current model Leafs can be imported under the SEVS/RAWS rules and look to be about $10k cheaper than these ex-demo models, or at least $5k cheaper for 2019 onwards models.

Personally I want a Nissan range extender Note.

[NavyDiver]

Current model Leafs can be imported under the SEVS/RAWS rules and look to be about $10k cheaper than these ex-demo models, or at least $5k cheaper for 2019 onwards models.

Personally I want a Nissan range extender Note.

along with my quirky mg apparently you might be able to buy a Ora Punk Cat or an Ora Ballet Cat [biggrin][biggrin] MG is chinese now. VW also has substanial chinese factories and progects. I wonder if that is why they are not bothered by the similarities to a VW beetle

"Ora released some information about the Punk Cat that should be the same as the Ballet Cat. The first Bettle-wannabe had two battery pack options: 47.8 kWh, for a range of 401 km, and 59.1 kWh, for running 501 km. In both cases, ranges were measured according to the NEDC cycle.

There’s no information so far on how powerful the Punk Cat will be. For a matter of historical accuracy, it would better have a motor powering the rear wheels. If the Beetle heritage is to be followed, it will also lack power, but Ora may be willing to correct this with its new electric vehicle.

Volkswagen once said it would examine legal measures (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/volkswagen-is-considering-legal-options-with-the-beetle-knockoff-ora-punk-cat-159867.html) about the copycat, but it has not opposed the patents in Europe, as far as we know. With the Ballet Car, we have no idea if the German company is also willing to take any measures, but it will now face double the trouble in case it does."

Fake Chinese VW Beetle Has a New Name: Ora Ballet Cat - autoevolution (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/fake-chinese-vw-beetle-has-a-new-name-ora-ballet-cat-167453.html)

[JDNSW]

Considering the VW beetle styling (and everything else) was a rip-off of Tatra.....

[DiscoMick]

Electric buses are coming to Brisbane, with a fleet to be based at North Lakes.

Local bus manufacturer to build 16 electric buses for Queensland (https://thedriven.io/2021/08/26/local-bus-manufacturer-to-build-16-electric-buses-for-queensland/?__twitter_impression=true)

[PhilipA]

Sydney is as usual way ahead.
First NSW-built electric bus hits the street - InnovationAus (https://www.innovationaus.com/first-nsw-built-electric-bus-hits-the-street/)

I hope we have a better experience than the cities in the USA.

Regards PhilipA

[Gav 110]

Sydney is as usual way ahead.
First NSW-built electric bus hits the street - InnovationAus (https://www.innovationaus.com/first-nsw-built-electric-bus-hits-the-street/)

I hope we have a better experience than the cities in the USA.

Regards PhilipA

Hi Philip

Your initial statement has the nickname for WA in it not Sydney
It should read
“Sydney is as usual, sprucing itself as the leaders of innovation in Australia, but we all know which state is Way Ahead”
[emoji12]

PTA announce first Electric Buses into Perth | Volvo Buses (https://www.volvobuses.com/au/news/2020/july/volvo-buses-and-the-public-transport-authority-of-western-australia-announce-first-electric-buses-into-perth.html)

[emoji481][emoji481]

Gav

[Tombie]

Rivian has dropped some prototypes into AU

Rivian R1T And R1S Spotted In Australia, Why Are They There? (https://insideevs.com/news/529130/rivian-r1s-r1t-spotted-australia/)

[NavyDiver]

Ouch! Australian hydrogen fuel cell electric vehcile start-up H2X Global says it will launch its high priced Warrego Ute on the Gold Coast in November, ahead of deliveries slated for April 2022.The Warrego ute will features a 200kW motor and a 66KW and optional 90KW fuel cell system delivering between 60KW and 100KW of output from its energy storage systems between the battery and supercapacitor units.
Three Warrego models will be available, with the base model Warrego 66 starting at a price of $189,000 for the only model with either 2WD or AWD. The Warrego 90 and 90 XR will arrive in late-2022 and start from $235,000 and $250,000 respectively.
The Warrego 66 will boasts a top speed of 110km/h, while both the Warrego 90 and 90 XR push their top speeds to 150km/h. All three models offer impressive torque of 350Nm and carry capacity of 1,000-kilograms and additional towing capacity of 2,500-kilograms

Australia's H2X to launch hydrogen fuel cell Warrego ute in November (https://thedriven.io/2021/09/01/australias-h2x-to-launch-hydrogen-fuel-cell-warrego-ute-in-november/)

[Homestar]

Who in their right minds would spend $180K on a vehicle with a top speed of 110KPH, and a 2500Kg towing limit???

That’s business model is going to go tits up - I’d put money on it and I don’t bet or gamble.

[JDNSW]

There may be some niche uses for it - but I can't think of any! And for those that didn't read the article, the starting price is $189k

[PhilipA]

It would be good in underground mines to replace the hiluxes.
regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

It would be good in underground mines to replace the hiluxes.
regards PhilipA

Not with Hydrogen on board it won’t be.
They’re going EV.

[Homestar]

It would be good in underground mines to replace the hiluxes.
regards PhilipA

Cat converters are much cheaper... [biggrin][bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

There may be some niche uses for it - but I can't think of any! And for those that didn't read the article, the starting price is $189k

I did shake my head at the price then uranium went boom yesterday. It is still 80% cheaper than in 2012is dollars ($36lbs)
That just might with my stupidly over weight uranium tragic history make me consider it [B] NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

A Super capacitor, battery and hydrogen conversion of my Disco is still my preferred option using the running gear and parts from where ever it is big and strong enough.


Warrego ute
General Motors Kit- They announced plans for two additional United States battery factories and new hydrogen fuel-cell projects as part of a $35 billion investment in green technology through 2025
Toyota Develops Packaged Fuel Cell System Module (https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/34799439.html)
Ballard power
Not sure where Hyundai is getting theirs from XCIENT Fuel Cell is truck sized might be Hyzon Fuel cells ?

News is "Global hydrogen fuel cell vehicle market include General Motors, BMW, Groupe Renault, Daimler AG, Hydrogenics, Mazda Motor Corporation, Kia Motors Corporation, Tata Motors Limited, and The Hyundai Motor Company"

[DiscoMick]

Here are some new Euro EVs which are unlikely to ever come to Australia.

Not coming to a showroom near you: the new electric cars Australia will miss out on | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/11/not-coming-to-a-showroom-near-you-the-new-electric-cars-australia-will-miss-out-on?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Homestar]

Here are some new Euro EVs which are unlikely to ever come to Australia.

Not coming to a showroom near you: the new electric cars Australia will miss out on | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/11/not-coming-to-a-showroom-near-you-the-new-electric-cars-australia-will-miss-out-on?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

Looks like we dodged a bullet there. 😁

[Gav 110]

Who in their right minds would spend $180K on a vehicle with a top speed of 110KPH, and a 2500Kg towing limit???

That’s business model is going to go tits up - I’d put money on it and I don’t bet or gamble.

Seems there are a few people who would like one

Australia’s Warrego hydrogen ute claims $50 million of order requests in just 4 days (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/thedriven.io/2021/09/06/australias-warrego-hydrogen-ute-claims-50-million-of-order-requests-in-just-4-days/amp/)

Orders From around the world

[Homestar]

Seems there are a few people who would like one

Australia’s Warrego hydrogen ute claims $50 million of order requests in just 4 days (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/thedriven.io/2021/09/06/australias-warrego-hydrogen-ute-claims-50-million-of-order-requests-in-just-4-days/amp/)

Orders From around the world

Proves you don’t need brains to be rich.

[ramblingboy42]

I follow this thread but have had thoughts about electric drive similar to diesel electric.

I dont know how much power you need to produce from an alternator to drive 4 motors on a vehicle?

do you need to drive 4 motors independently or would one suffice and use an almost conventional drive line?

a small turbine similar in size to the lighter of the current light helicopters might work.....you can carry them in one arm.

the current , small single and twin turbine aeroplane engines are almost silent and the engines appear to be too small to do the job, but they are just jets and not running an alternator to a drive line.

Chrysler played with the idea in the 60's .

I'm guessing diesels are really out of the equation with diesel going out of fashion in the centre of the world.

Does any one else here share my thoughts?

[JDNSW]

I follow this thread but have had thoughts about electric drive similar to diesel electric.

I dont know how much power you need to produce from an alternator to drive 4 motors on a vehicle?

About as much power as you want at the wheels, plus about 15-20% for losses. Not a new idea, goes back to the early 1900s.

do you need to drive 4 motors independently or would one suffice and use an almost conventional drive line?

No, you don't, but the advantage of the motor at each wheel is that it gives you four wheel drive with none of the complications of a drive train. Again, was used from the early 1900s, and I believe one British bus manufacturer persisted with it into 1930s - but you are basically replacing the clutch and gearbox with an alternator and electric motor plus a control system - and it is far heavier, much less efficient, and a lot more expensive. Now add a battery - and the advantage of being able to save and use braking energy can outweigh the disadvantages. (Used by some hybrids i believe.)

a small turbine similar in size to the lighter of the current light helicopters might work.....you can carry them in one arm.

These turbines, while very light, are much less efficient that large turbines, nowhere near as efficient as a modern diesel or petrol motor, and vastly more expensive.

the current , small single and twin turbine aeroplane engines are almost silent and the engines appear to be too small to do the job, but they are just jets and not running an alternator to a drive line.

Chrysler played with the idea in the 60's .

Yes, and so did Rover in the forties and fifties.

I'm guessing diesels are really out of the equation with diesel going out of fashion in the centre of the world.

Does any one else here share my thoughts?

These are not new ideas, but have, except in the case of some hybrid electrics, been unable to overcome the efficiency and manufacturing cost issues. Without breakthroughs in these area - not promising.

[PhilipA]

I just reread AFAIR the March LRO where they do a 300mile test of the new Defender hybrid 6 cylinder diesel.

It managed 31.5MPG on the test which included motorways secondary roads and a bit of off road.

That is good but not really that good.
So all the technology that has gone into the damn things is worth maybe 3MPG?
Admittedly it is cleaner than say a D4 3 litre but at what cost and complexity?
I guess the milk is already spilt .

Regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

I follow this thread but have had thoughts about electric drive similar to diesel electric.

I dont know how much power you need to produce from an alternator to drive 4 motors on a vehicle? ......

Does any one else here share my thoughts?


What you're describing sounds like the Nissan e-Power vehicles:

e-POWER | NISSAN | Technology (https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/e_power.html)

The motor doesn't run the wheels, it just works as a generator. The Holden Volt had the same arrangement and some of the BMWs default to that arrangement when they run out of charge.

The Rivians have a motor at each wheel:

What is Quad-Motor Drive? - Support Center - Rivian (https://rivian.com/support/article/what-is-quad-motor-drive)

[Arapiles]

Sign of the times - a mate whose cars have included a blueprinted FJ Holden, an SS Commodore, a Renault Megane RS and a BMW M2 has put a deposit on a Tesla Cybertruck ....

[Homestar]

I thought the Cybertruck was ruled out for OS markets and for USA only? Did they do another backflip? That Musk fellow must be very flexible… [emoji16]

Edit - latest article I can find from a month ago says it’s still not known if it will be available here, but other articles say definitely not, but with a fully refundable deposit there’s not much to lose putting your hand up I suppose if you’re into that kind of thing.

[DiscoMick]

This research into lithium-sulphur batteries sounds promising, particularly if the batteries could be made here and generate exports.

Batteries of the future set to be cheaper and better — just by adding sugar
Batteries of the future set to be cheaper and better — just by adding sugar - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-09-14/batteries-lithium-sulfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492)

[PhilipA]

Oops, it seems another hitch in the EV saga is becoming apparent.
The UK Government intends to cut off EV charging from 8AM to 11am and 4PM to 10pm.

E-car chargers will turn off to prevent blackouts | News | The Sunday Times (thetimes.co.uk) (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e-car-chargers-will-turn-off-to-prevent-blackouts-jnm2m86pz)

I wonder if that will be long enough to charge cars on home chargers. I think not if people leave home early to miss traffic.

Ah the joys!
I wonder when the Australian authorities will be faced with this situation. Not fro quite a while I guess but it will be coming.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Yep, the reality is starting to show up about how much power a large amount of EV's uses and where the power comes from for this - the grid and power stations in any Country were never designed for these loads - which will see the need for around 8 times as much power as normal if all cars went to EV.

Home charging with battery and solar is great but when you're out and about is a different story.

[Arapiles]

I thought the Cybertruck was ruled out for OS markets and for USA only? Did they do another backflip? That Musk fellow must be very flexible… [emoji16]

Edit - latest article I can find from a month ago says it’s still not known if it will be available here, but other articles say definitely not, but with a fully refundable deposit there’s not much to lose putting your hand up I suppose if you’re into that kind of thing.


Yes, with the deposit being just A$150 and refundable it's not a huge ask. Interesting point is that my mate, who is a certified petrol head, is expecting his next vehicle to be electric.

[Homestar]

Yes, with the deposit being just A$150 and refundable it's not a huge ask. Interesting point is that my mate, who is a certified petrol head, is expecting his next vehicle to be electric.

If you have money and want to go fast just for ****s and giggles, an EV fits the bill perfectly. [thumbsupbig]

[goingbush]

Yep, the reality is starting to show up about how much power a large amount of EV's uses and where the power comes from for this - the grid and power stations in any Country were never designed for these loads - which will see the need for around 8 times as much power as normal if all cars went to EV.

Home charging with battery and solar is great but when you're out and about is a different story.

Its been shown that it takes about the same amount of electricity to produce a gallon of fuel , as that electricity could drive an equivalent sized EV the same distance. So no net increase in electricity is needed to convert the fleet to EV.

Not so good in Australia though as we import 95% of our fuel. Clearly we will need to go nuclear. At least we wont be dependent on Alah for our fuel. As it stands anyone wants to take over out country just hast to cut off our fuel supply and wait 21 days, then we will capitulate.

[Homestar]

Its been shown that it takes about the same amount of electricity to produce a gallon of fuel , as that electricity could drive an equivalent sized EV the same distance. So no net increase in electricity is needed to convert the fleet to EV.

Not so good in Australia though as we import 95% of our fuel. Clearly we will need to go nuclear. At least we wont be dependent on Alah for our fuel. As it stands anyone wants to take over out country just hast to cut off our fuel supply and wait 21 days, then we will capitulate.

A litre of fuel produces 8.9KWh of power but only takes 0.756KWh to produce that same litre of fuel. I’ve seen the articles that claim it’s one to one but it’s not even close. Add to that you have massive power infrastructure to refineries - how do you then take all that power and put it elsewhere? The infrastructure where the power will be needed can’t cope with it plain and simple hence the issue that is becoming a reality. No amount of spin fixes this but happy to look at the links and info you have and their calculations.

Take a average sized shopping centre for example - will have 3 or 4 switchboards around it supplying power to the shops - drawing around 4000 to 5000 amps per phase on a warm day with its switchboards at around 60 to 70% load (I’ve measured all of this at many shopping centres, I’m just using this as an average and example). That leaves a couple thousand amps before the systems maxed out. A fast charger will draw let’s say 100 amps - they can be double this - so it’s not hard to work out how many chargers a shopping centre for example could install before their infrastructure is maxed out and upgrading this is a massive and expensive task. That’s why you rarely see more than a few chargers at any one spot and why most places where they’ll be needed won’t have infrastructure that can cope with more that a few here and there. It’s the single biggest issue EV’s face IMO.

[johnp38]

If those nuke powered subs go ahead the knowledge and workforce skills we can develop if managed properly can translate to homegrown expertise to develop nuclear power stations in this country in the future. Combined with wind and solar and storage we should have an abundance of energy in our future.

Wind , solar and storage are fine but biomass, biofuels , thermal and nuclear and others should all be on the table, can never have too much variety in energy production.

Now where is that dual electric motor diff for my disco, screw you Rivian, I'm coming for ya!!

[Homestar]

If those nuke powered subs go ahead the knowledge and workforce skills we can develop if managed properly can translate to homegrown expertise to develop nuclear power stations in this country in the future. Combined with wind and solar and storage we should have an abundance of energy in our future.

Wind , solar and storage are fine but biomass, biofuels , thermal and nuclear and others should all be on the table, can never have too much variety in energy production.

Now where is that dual electric motor diff for my disco, screw you Rivian, I'm coming for ya!!

I do hope this does open it up to Nuclear power in Australia but it will be decades away if it is. Even then, that doesn’t fix the issue of getting the power to the EV’s

[BradC]

I do hope this does open it up to Nuclear power in Australia but it will be decades away if it is. Even then, that doesn’t fix the issue of getting the power to the EV’s

It’ll never happen. Nobody involved in renewables wants reliable base load power. Too much money to be made building short lived infrastructure and devices for wind, solar and batteries.

[JDNSW]

If those nuke powered subs go ahead the knowledge and workforce skills we can develop if managed properly can translate to homegrown expertise to develop nuclear power stations in this country in the future. ....!

I do not think that this will be the case. I'll bet that the nuclear reactor system for the subs will arrive in Adelaide(?) as a complete, sealed, fuelled-for-life unit, ready for installation.

[350RRC]

I do not think that this will be the case. I'll bet that the nuclear reactor system for the subs will arrive in Adelaide(?) as a complete, sealed, fuelled-for-life unit, ready for installation.

The US manufactured ignition black box in my pos is completely filled with a type of resin to makes it impervious to water and impossible to dismantle and copy.

[NavyDiver]

80 Litres of fuel $120[bawl]

Not doing that for months now has made me forget the hand in pocket event an almost dry tank gives me. For a crook comp cost comparison 42 kwh of power did not cost $13.44 as despite the rain and cloud about 30% was solar. I must be becoming a tight arse [bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Lucid Motors beats Tesla in range, going 520 miles on a charge, the E.P.A. says.
520 miles is Melbourne to Sydney! Thats is a bit of a up yours to a Certain EV man who doesn't like Divers [thumbsupbig]

[101RRS]

I really dont think that range is the real issue for current EVs - 400km to 500km while not ideal is OK. The issue is how long it takes to recharge and how do you recharge at home. The later is probably OK in the suburbs if you pay for a high rate charger but for people in the inner city areas who dont have garages and have to park on the road this is a major issue.

When public quick charging infrastructure is provided that can fully charge a car in 5 minutes then Evs will be a viable option for a single car family. At the moment if you can charge at home or at work than EVs make a great second car for commuting but for anything else you need a second ICE vehicle for longer distance travel.

[PhilipA]

Agree.
I read last year in Norway a survey was done on EV owners and it was found that 70% of EV owners retained an ICE vehicle, even with the enormous subsidies given for EV ownership.
There was also a survey in the USA where it was found that an EV was typically the fifth vehicle in a family.
This indicates to me that there will be a market for ICE vehicles long into the future.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

80 Litres of fuel $120[bawl]

Not doing that for months now has made me forget the hand in pocket event an almost dry tank gives me. For a crook comp cost comparison 42 kwh of power did not cost $13.44 as despite the rain and cloud about 30% was solar. I must be becoming a tight arse [bigrolf]

That 80 litres would get my 101 around 350KM - which is why I had to make a 160 litre tank for it - I now get ‘normal’ km per tank as everyone else. [bigrolf]

I also don’t look at the price of fuel when filling up or keep receipts…[bigwhistle]

[disco gazza]

My servo down the road had diesel at $1.55 ltr when I last filled up(10 days ago). By the end of the week it had gone up to $1.57.
Friday it had gone up to $1.59. Our US to AUS dollar has gone down by .2c during the last couple of weeks, so the price of fuel
has gone up.
Wonder if the dollar will keep going down?

[NavyDiver]

Agree.
I read last year in Norway a survey was done on EV owners and it was found that 70% of EV owners retained an ICE vehicle, even with the enormous subsidies given for EV ownership.
There was also a survey in the USA where it was found that an EV was typically the fifth vehicle in a family.
This indicates to me that there will be a market for ICE vehicles long into the future.
Regards PhilipA

Very tempted by the Rivian - Cannot get it here yet. If I could suspect my D3's days with my are numbered. D3 which is now only a tow tug. The mg is going to the kids in 2-3 years time when I will have a FCEV or EV D3 capable option.

I am an optimist of course. I may need to be as I love fishing and Diving and am seeing and reading of issues that require people to step up and make choices as soon as they can.
Canada is flying in 40 tonnes of fish to stop people starving was one bit of news that made me go WOW[tonguewink] Tropical fish eating kelp beds. Massive out breaks of Diadema antillarum (sea urchins) in southern waters, Abalone seeming to disappear in front of me in places that had thousands just recently. I might be sensitive of course.

Alaska's Indigenous tribes 'livid', turn to hunting as salmon stocks dwindle on Yukon River
Alaska'&#39;'s Indigenous tribes '&#39;'livid'&#39;', turn to hunting as salmon stocks dwindle on Yukon River - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/-dwindling-alaska-salmon-leave-yukon-river-tribes-in-crisis/100510470)

[PhilipA]

Mate I think you are getting a bit excited about something minor as far as emissions are concerned.

According to the US EPA site , total transportation emissions amount to 14% of total emissions.

That includes passenger vehicles , trucks , public Transport, railways, ships , and whatever else uses fuel to move..

So what would passenger cars share be? maybe 30% or less?.

So if we halve passenger car emissions it will mean a say 2% reduction in World CO2 emissions.

BIG DEAL, with ultimately no measurable or discernable effect on climate yet enormous effects on consumers .
Be careful what you wish for.
Regards PhilipA

[johnp38]

Too lazy to google but I do recall reading years ago that volcanoes erupting and other gaseous earth leaks are a huge source of emissions and a few days of volcanic activity is equivalent to a few years of man made crap.

Just dredging up from old memory cells.

But while vehicles may not be as big a total contributor when put in world context, I look forward to the day when those cities who were blessed to see a clear sky and far away mountains under lockdown can see the same again with roads full of non smog creating cars.

[NavyDiver]

Mate I think you are getting a bit excited about something minor as far as emissions are concerned.

According to the US EPA site , total transportation emissions amount to 14% of total emissions.

That includes passenger vehicles , trucks , public Transport, railways, ships , and whatever else uses fuel to move..

So what would passenger cars share be? maybe 30% or less?.

So if we halve passenger car emissions it will mean a say 2% reduction in World CO2 emissions.

BIG DEAL, with ultimately no measurableor discernable effect on climate yet enormous effects on consumers .
Be careful what you wish for.
Regards PhilipA

I might be Philip. I do like the idea of the power up, smooth power increase at all speed from zero to legal electric motors give. The significant servicing cost mentioned by a gent coming back to Landrovers must be overlooked /ignored for us at times as well.[biggrin]. Ritta has texted me twice now. Ill take the Disco for its now 'yearly service' in a week or two. I was chewing though service intervals every 3-4 months in the past.

Not kidding re abalone suddenly leaving a big area here ( I note it may be abalone viral ganglioneuritis from Portland to Warrnabool). The sea urchins suddenly going nuts down to Tassie or some other non cold water invasions we are seeing here and the Canadian/Alaskan news shocking to this black duck. I bet the bears are not happy either! Suspect they mind find other food which just may make bushwalking and camping a WHOLE LOT more dangerous in Northern America?

I will not pretend to know the C02 emissions from my car/boat/lawnmower/blower vac business or house. I can do a little bit and will as better options become available. Over reaction or under reactions can be an issue. Option which make money and do the job are my preference

The Melbourne to Sydney Tesla beating Lucid motors 520 mile range or the Rivian with the extra $10k of batteries are impressive $$$$PRICES and range[biggrin] The Rivian is a few years from here and Lucid is not my cup of tea.

Rivians plans to put huge DC fast charge points at the front of Trail heads in the US. We needs a similar option(s) here before we can really consider the Canning Stock Route 1700 km or similar, Noting my prior D3 with long range tanks have would struggle 1700km off road of course.
A gent at a company near me which has a free 10kwh dc charger I used once, mentioned they have a 200kw +dc super version about to roll out. 350kW dc version are already at some places despite almost nothing to charge with them :)

The 7kwAC at home or the several 50kw DC freebies I use from time to time are chalk and cheese. Home its 5 hours. 50kw is well sub an hour. Those new 250+ charging beasts would not help my ev. They will help the new ones coming.

Not needing a nuclear power plant in my car to be less carbon emitting myself happily. An affordable long range 4wd towing capable FCEV would do me fine when it get here.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpBMld6U9B0

[101RRS]

Too lazy to google but I do recall reading years ago that volcanoes erupting and other gaseous earth leaks are a huge source of emissions and a few days of volcanic activity is equivalent to a few years of man made crap.



True but man made emissions are over an above natural emissions - mother earth has shown over millions of years to be able to cope with natural emissions once the planet has settled down but is having trouble with man made stuff

[vnx205]

Originally Posted by johnp38 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/271840-ev-general-discussion-post3112841.html#post3112841)
Too lazy to google but I do recall reading years ago that volcanoes erupting and other gaseous earth leaks are a huge source of emissions and a few days of volcanic activity is equivalent to a few years of man made crap.


True but man made emissions are over an above natural emissions - mother earth has shown over millions of years to be able to cope with natural emissions once the planet has settled down but is having trouble with man made stuff


There are plenty of people (like Alan Jones) who make that claim about volcanoes but it seems that it is not true.

According to this site and many others, humans emit 100s of times as much C02 as volcanoes.

Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans? (https://skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming-basic.htm)

This UN site says:
“It takes only three days for man-kind to equal the entire annual CO2 emissions of all volcanoes on earth,”

https://unric.org/en/even-volcanos-do-not-surpass-the-human-contribution-to-co2-emissions/

[NavyDiver]

Polestar grabbed my attention a few hours ago. It is one of those SPAC merger listings in the US. Not an IPO just a odd marige of a bucket load of cash raised with the hope of a merger with a hopefuly very good idea that is not yet on the share market. Not legal to do in Australia. It was a Volvo baby Then a Volvo - Geely baby not listed describes as "independent" from 2017 onwards

Polestar will trade on the NASDAQ under the ticker symbol PSNY

SPAC is GGPI Gores Guggenheim Inc on Nasdaq

Not in myself but watching


Pricing the Polestar cars looks fairly sharp Not a Disco replacement [bighmmm]


https://images.drive.com.au/driveau/image/upload/c_fill,f_auto,g_auto,h_540,q_auto:good,w_960/v1/cms/uploads/ugxrjbvxuabqfi9w7t8n
https://www.drive.com.au/news/2022-polestar-2-price-and-specs/

[350RRC]

Originally Posted by johnp38 https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/271840-ev-general-discussion-post3112841.html#post3112841)
Too lazy to google but I do recall reading years ago that volcanoes erupting and other gaseous earth leaks are a huge source of emissions and a few days of volcanic activity is equivalent to a few years of man made crap.




There are plenty of people (like Alan Jones) who make that claim about volcanoes but it seems that it is not true.

According to this site and many others, humans emit 100s of times as much C02 as volcanoes.

Do volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans? (https://skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming-basic.htm)

This UN site says:
“It takes only three days for man-kind to equal the entire annual CO2 emissions of all volcanoes on earth,”

https://unric.org/en/even-volcanos-do-not-surpass-the-human-contribution-to-co2-emissions/

A lot of dumb ****s equate 'smoke' with CO2.

The 'smoke' from volcanoes is nearly all just steam.

DL

[JDNSW]

Dirty steam, with occasional large lumps, also significant amounts of sulphur oxides.

Magma coming from deep in the crust has almost no carbon content, but is likely to pick up carbon bearing rocks on the way up, mainly limestone, but also other carbonates and coal, oil shale, and oil or natural gas which will oxidise to carbon dioxide as soon as they come in contact with the atmosphere.

[NavyDiver]

A 3k drop in Ford Electric engine. Apparently the engine what is in the 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E GT


Ford’s Already Out of $3,900 Electric Crate Motors

EV hot-rodders are adopting the Blue Oval's new offering in a hurry.

By Caleb Jacobs (https://www.thedrive.com/author/caleb-jacobs) November 5, 2021

https://www.thedrive.com/content/2021/11/Eluminator-Hero.jpg?quality=85&width=1920&quality=70
Ford’s Already Out of $3,900 Electric Crate Motors

| The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/43030/fords-already-out-of-3900-electric-crate-motors)The bad bit is of course "In order to make the crate motor work at all, you'll need to source your own inverter and battery pack, which is no small feat. If and when you're able to find those, you'll at least be happy to know Ford supplies a vent tube assembly, an LV harness and connector, and an HV motor to traction inverter harness."

Stats for the car. Link (https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/42682/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-gt-first-drive-review-doubt-killing-performance)
[B]2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E GT and GT Performance Edition: By the Numbers

Base price: $61,000 ($66,000 GT Performance Edition) (all prices exclude destination fees)
Powertrain: 88 kWh battery | 1-speed transmission | all-wheel drive
Horsepower: 480
Torque: 600 lb-ft | 634 GT Performance Edition
0-60: 3.8 seconds | 3.5 GT Performance Edition
Seating capacity: 5
Cargo volume: 29.7 cubic feet (59.7 with the second row down) | 4.7 cubic feet front trunk
EPA range: 270 miles | 260 GT Performance Edition
Quick take: The Mach-E model we should've gotten from day one.

[goingbush]

I don't know why they are calling it a crate motor , Its just a Motor which is pretty useless without its specific inverter. Like buying a short engine in ICE terminology.

As I understand a 'crate motor' comes with inverter & everything you need to programme & make it run .

[NavyDiver]

I don't know why they are calling it a crate motor , Its just a Motor which is pretty useless without its specific inverter. Like buying a short engine in ICE terminology.


As I understand a 'crate motor' comes with inverter & everything you need to programme & make it run .

Fully agree. I would add most of the ford 'crate' motor looks like it a facade. It is useless to me for my hope to move my Disco off ICE. No hope untill I can get the power source which is suitable for my needs. Honestly happy to wait for a fuel Cell option myself. Love my 2 big enough batteries at work yet can see a replacement will have options at their expiry date in a year or several [bighmmm]

I do think the price points is a start and happy to see bits on the market.

[Tombie]

I see the biggest issue of say a D2 conversion would be the need for a hefty GVM increase.

Enough battery to go a good distance would be significant wouldn’t it?

GB:
How heavy are the batteries in the Series? And what’s the overall weight change?

[NavyDiver]

I see the biggest issue of say a D2 conversion would be the need for a hefty GVM increase.

Enough battery to go a good distance would be significant wouldn’t it?

GB:
How heavy are the batteries in the Series? And what’s the overall weight change?

Assuming batteries are heavy might be a today issue I think. My 2*10kWh weight in at 1200kg at work and my mgev is about 250kg 42kWh. A new mg version which goes 500KM, a smidgen under twice the range of mine, is a blade type I think and still is about 250kg.

If/when fcev comes along a super capacitor to recover the braking power much of which is still lost in today EVs. My sparky is going to add a suitable sized super capacitor to my work set up so I can leave my batteries asleep for 90 odd days and turn on themselves in a few minutes IF needed like two weeks ago.

Quatumscape (and others) They claim "QuantumScape solid-state lithium-metal cells, at our target of 1,000 Wh/L, would translate to more range in electric vehicles, potentially a 50-80% improvement vs today’s leading electric vehicles, depending on the vehicle design. Thus, for example, a vehicle that gets 200 miles of range could get between 300 and 400 miles of range."

It is a claim of course. Backed by a few billion$$$$$$$$[biggrin]Share price 52 Week High$132.73 52 Week Low$16.64 ( I do not own any anymore They did pay for my EV [thumbsupbig])



It is a race. BYD in China and Korea are moving very very fast as is I assume Japan quietly [biggrin]

I picked up some bikes for xmas today for the kids one of who I bigger than I am at 13 years old the cheeky sod. They are the same as my ride. The new versions is 2.5kg lighter than mine. Mine is 8kg lighter than a bike I had 15 years ago. The gearing will make them about 15% faster. I quick test ride had a flat out top speed rudely proving that. No batteries in the bike. The technology changes in LI, Flow and other battery types is about to follow my push bike being outdated. Not that I am changing it!
.
Off topic.

The Series battery weight might be a little like the specs in Evolution Australia Series Conversions kit (https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/product-page/land-rover-series-defender-1-3-electric-car-conversion-kit).
"From 23Kwh to 55kwh of batteries which makes for between 120-300km of range"

That would put battery weight both below and above my 250kg I guess

[johnp38]

I see the biggest issue of say a D2 conversion would be the need for a hefty GVM increase.

Enough battery to go a good distance would be significant wouldn’t it?

GB:
How heavy are the batteries in the Series? And what’s the overall weight change?

But which option weighs what?

You can replace the motor with electric and still have the rest of the driveline the same, plus flatteries (would be a lot heavier)

Or my preferred option when someone manufactures it (and someone else other than me pays for it) is throwing out the whole drivetrain and replacing with axles with twin motor units front and rear so full independent drive on each corner.

By my thinking your ditching engine, gearbox/tcase and weight of diff gears and also remember no 100 kilos of fuel + jerrycans for 4 motors in a straight swap out bolt in assembly. (maybe lighter conversion than retaining old driveline?)

There are a squillion beam axle vehicles out there ripe for converting.

[goingbush]

I see the biggest issue of say a D2 conversion would be the need for a hefty GVM increase.

Enough battery to go a good distance would be significant wouldn’t it?

GB:
How heavy are the batteries in the Series? And what’s the overall weight change?

My series conversion is 60kg lighter than before ( measured with full tank), the 28kwh LFP batteries are 256kg .
I average 32kwh / 100km so clearly only good as a local runabout.

Batteries have got better power density since I built mine, there's a guy building a Series using 16xLG 43PS modules giving 42kwh and only weigh 168kg but we have a long way to go , but on this trajectory it wont be long.

[Don 130]

GAUSSIN Presents World’s First Hydrogen Racing Truck For 2022 Dakar Rally In January (https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/gaussin-presents-worlds-first-hydrogen-racing-truck-for-2022-dakar-rally-in-january/)

Don.

[NavyDiver]

I saw a hydrogen last week then a new Lexus UX today when out walking today. It must be a pre release lexus or import from japan as not for sale here today I thought?

Discover the UX 300e | Lexus (https://www.lexus.com.au/models/ux-300e/discover)

https://www.mynrma.com.au/-/media/2021-lexus-ux-300e-desktop.jpg?la=en&hash=020C95E4E24896E5575A9376BA15E3B1
Oddly looking closely at my quirky MG. The 2022 model has more range and a long range 70kWh battery option giving a 440km range. Claiming "MG ZS EV overseas, increasing driving range by up to 67 per cent" Interesting as its in the same base as the current one so just might be able to be fitted to mine. I could sell the 42kWh battery in the car now or use it at work in my UPS or for time shifting at home with my Solar to night time?? A little tricky as it has a 8 year warranty to consider[wink11]



RACV list of 2021 is about to land if not already here (https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/news/electric-cars-coming-to-australia-in-2021)

Non are 4wd Land rover replacements yet.

[NavyDiver]

Melb- Port fairy- PF to Warrnabool three times return for Chemo, Physio, Ultrasound......... maxed out for other peoples medical appointments. and back to Melb 2am this morning.

Freebie charging here in Melb and paid $15 and $16 both at Torquay and a little bit of free 'slow stuff' in Warnambool. I would be thrilled IF I could pay at Colac. four big empty super charges there would have saved an hour for me. :( its a bit off that that brand can and so use any charger yet they have some exclusive rights to charge there customers at 'special spots' [bigwhistle]

Apparently I can yet doing so is far from straight forward. I created an account for me which only tried selling me a car and then logged on as my wife and pushing the CHARGE icon opened her charge point a here in Melbourne not giving me any sparks in Colac[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Calling the sales man for that company who sold my wife's car to here with my help :)

[Don 130]

I didn't realise the Moke was still being made in the UK by Moke International , and now they've produced an electric version. I wonder if it will get here? I had an early Californian Moke in my younger days. (1100cc engine), and I loved it.
The Genuine MOKE(R) | Steer clear of imitations | MOKE(R) | Living the dream | Since 1964 (https://mokeinternational.com)
Don

[NavyDiver]

this is interesting in the EV area. Toyota
"Toyota Motor Company plans to launch 30 EVs by 2030, half of which have been previewed today.

Toyota Motor Co CEO Akio Toyoda (https://insideevs.com/news/534262/all-ev-plans-threaten-japan/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) hosted a press briefing today on the company’s battery electric vehicle strategies and revealed no fewer than 15 Toyota and Lexus BEVs that it is readying for market launch, in addition to the all-new Toyota bZ4X coming next year"

MOre details needed but the two at the back Left hand side look very 4wd ish to me[biggrin]
Link (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/toyota-and-lexus-preview-ev-onslaught-unveil-15-upcoming-models/ar-AARNgcN?ocid=msedgntp)

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AARMYA4.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

On the USA side two other giants are moving and both are clearly in the Zone of interest

The 2022 CES show in Las Vegas will be very important for Chevrolet (https://www.motor1.com/chevrolet/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). The automaker will unveil the electric version of the Silverado (https://www.motor1.com/news/538913/chevy-silverado-ev-ces-2022/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) which will be based on a modular platform and will use the company’s Ultium batteries (https://www.motor1.com/news/402337/gm-long-range-ultium-batteries/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). It will be aimed directly against the Ford F-150 Lightning (https://www.motor1.com/ford/f-150/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) and the likes in the quickly growing segment of zero-emission trucks. And according to GM’s boss, it will be unmatched on the market.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAR2DU0.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

to top this news day off

"https://www.aulro.com/afvb/{&quot;default&quot;:{&quot;load&quot;:&quot;defer&quot;,&quot;src&quot;:&quot;/img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AARXCc0.img?h=100&w=100&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=t&l=f&quot;}}=Fox News lurches further to the right as midterm elections loom


(https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/politics/fox-news-lurches-further-to-the-right-as-midterm-elections-loom/ar-AARXsNX?ocid=msedgntp)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/{&quot;default&quot;:{&quot;load&quot;:&quot;defer&quot;,&quot;src&quot;:&quot;/img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AARXxDp.img?h=100&w=100&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=t&l=f&x=1886&y=915&quot;}}=Falling tree kills woman in Sydney storms


(https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/falling-tree-kills-woman-in-sydney-storms/ar-AARXb2r?ocid=msedgntp)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAAEAAAABCAQAAAC 1HAwCAAAAC0lEQVR42mNkYAAAAAYAAjCB0C8AAAAASUVORK5CY II=GM has officially started sending its Hummer EV Edition 1 pickup trucks out of the factory and into the driveways of customers, according to a press release (https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2021/dec/1217-electric.html) on the company’s website. Built on the Ultium platform (https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/4/21164513/gm-ev-platform-architecture-battery-ultium-tesla), the Hummer EV Edition 1 model comes with a hefty $110,295 price tag, along with up to 1,000 horsepower, 11,500 lb-ft of torque, and an estimated 329-mile range."

ugly as I think[thumbsupbig]

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AARWFQg.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

[PhilipA]

2022 and 2023 will show whether people will actually buy EVs , after the early adopters have been satisfied.
New model releases usually have a Halo effect for up to a year.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

2022 and 2023 will show whether people will actually buy EVs , after the early adopters have been satisfied.
New model releases usually have a Halo effect for up to a year.
Regards PhilipA

Its all about cost and even more importantantly refuel/recharge access for BEV or FCEV Phillip. It is very clear the Total Cost of Ownership has shifted significantly with running cost savings making even a higher initial purchase price making sense

RACQ puts our Landrovers and people moves more expensive on a Monthly and Yearly cost (https://media.racq.com.au/-/media/racq/pdf/cars-and-driving/2021-running-costs-racq-for-pdf-v11.pdf?la=en&rev=2ee062cb925e43dcb2dc5524d7c0cad3&hash=0DAD89E0C15F4CFA0216A2E0506519C3C9C751B1) already?

My El cheapo MG short range just might be a little below the AVG costs assumed? It is below capability on range and NO towing as well.

Boat for XMAS is putting the EV in the garage and Disco back on the road regardless. The seven seats also needed. Of interest perhaps was a chat with the Nissan/mg dealer last week. No new stock coming into Australia until at least July 2022! It seem mine was one of the last in. The same seem to have happened with Volvo Xc40bev. Just here and already sold out apparently "The first allocation of XC40 Recharge models were sold out in Australia within days (https://thedriven.io/2021/09/09/volvos-electric-xc40-recharge-already-sold-out-in-australia-with-hundreds-on-order/) of its launch, with 131 all-electric models (https://thedriven.io/2021/10/12/all-electric-volvo-recharge-shoots-to-top-of-australian-ev-sales/) out of the total 360 XC40s allocated in Australia." link (https://thedriven.io/2021/11/30/volvo-poised-to-add-lower-cost-single-motor-xc40-recharge-to-australia/)

131 is not a huge volume I suppose? Interestingly the stated record of "MG ZS EV (169) and the Porsche Taycan (161)." (launch month sales in link above)

Have a great day

[BradC]

ugly as I think[thumbsupbig]

Yep, but the ugh-mericans will love it.



RACQ puts our Landrovers and people moves more expensive on a Monthly and Yearly cost (https://media.racq.com.au/-/media/racq/pdf/cars-and-driving/2021-running-costs-racq-for-pdf-v11.pdf?la=en&rev=2ee062cb925e43dcb2dc5524d7c0cad3&hash=0DAD89E0C15F4CFA0216A2E0506519C3C9C751B1) already?

I was over at the folks on the weekend and Dad mentioned this. My brother was there (he owns a Prado, as do all his mates - but they call them a 'cruiser') also. Dad has a 200 series. They both pointed out the maintenance cost on the D3 compared to theirs and the latest RACQ blurb.

My brother's "cruiser" now looks like a dragster because he had a "GVM upgrade" done, and it's 100mm higher in the back than it was, and 25mm higher in the front. The suspension guy suggested he put 300kg in the boot while he's not towing to level it out but it will still give a rougher ride. My old man spent >$2k on an electronics package upgrade plus more crap on his 200.

I asked them what annoyed them about their cars (aside from the engine noise, wind noise and tractor'ish ride) and they both trotted out a list. I pointed out :

I don't need the "GVM upgrade"
My headlights don't need aligning every time I put the van on the back
I don't need to fart around with the jockey wheel on the van because the suspension does it for me
I have an order of magnitude less wind and engine noise
They both routinely comment they love my car because it's quiet and comfortable
It has rear seats that comfortably seat 2 adults
Plenty of luggage room
I don't need to swing my spare out to open the tailgate
I can fit in any underground carpark
I don't and didn't have to fit bright yellow aftermarket "recovery points" to the chassis
It doesn't have hemorrhoids hanging off the back bumper because when I'm not towing the tow bar takes 10 seconds to remove
It does cost me more to maintain, but that's because I do all the preventative maintenance stuff up-front
I haven't needed to be snatch recovered on the beach because it drives nicely in sand even with road tyres
Nothing annoys me. I can have a conversation with the wife and kids with the van on the back going up hill with it pegged in 3rd gear.


That sorted that.

To at least nod to the topic, When they bring out a comparable EV with a range of > 600KM fully loaded, in 42 degree heat with a van on the back I might consider it.

[NavyDiver]

Yep, but the ugh-mericans will love it.



I was over at the folks on the weekend and Dad mentioned this. My brother was there (he owns a Prado, as do all his mates - but they call them a 'cruiser') also. Dad has a 200 series. They both pointed out the maintenance cost on the D3 compared to theirs and the latest RACQ blurb.

My brother's "cruiser" now looks like a dragster because he had a "GVM upgrade" done, and it's 100mm higher in the back than it was, and 25mm higher in the front. The suspension guy suggested he put 300kg in the boot while he's not towing to level it out but it will still give a rougher ride. My old man spent >$2k on an electronics package upgrade plus more crap on his 200.

I asked them what annoyed them about their cars (aside from the engine noise, wind noise and tractor'ish ride) and they both trotted out a list. I pointed out :

I don't need the "GVM upgrade"
My headlights don't need aligning every time I put the van on the back
I don't need to fart around with the jockey wheel on the van because the suspension does it for me
I have an order of magnitude less wind and engine noise
They both routinely comment they love my car because it's quiet and comfortable
It has rear seats that comfortably seat 2 adults
Plenty of luggage room
I don't need to swing my spare out to open the tailgate
I can fit in any underground carpark
I don't and didn't have to fit bright yellow aftermarket "recovery points" to the chassis
It doesn't have hemorrhoids hanging off the back bumper because when I'm not towing the tow bar takes 10 seconds to remove
It does cost me more to maintain, but that's because I do all the preventative maintenance stuff up-front
I haven't needed to be snatch recovered on the beach because it drives nicely in sand even with road tyres
Nothing annoys me. I can have a conversation with the wife and kids with the van on the back going up hill with it pegged in 3rd gear.


That sorted that.

To at least nod to the topic, When they bring out a comparable EV with a range of > 600KM fully loaded, in 42 degree heat with a van on the back I might consider it.

Give you each of those points with pleasure Yet ONE!

many Melb car parks are shrinking and no way I can get a Disco in even on belly mode LAMS [bawl]. Roof rack kills of a lot more option and spare tire on roof rack is a kiss of death in almost all undercover Melb car parks :)

Have a great Xmas mate. Wish I was visiting WA again

[Homestar]

Yep, but the ugh-mericans will love it.



I was over at the folks on the weekend and Dad mentioned this. My brother was there (he owns a Prado, as do all his mates - but they call them a 'cruiser') also. Dad has a 200 series. They both pointed out the maintenance cost on the D3 compared to theirs and the latest RACQ blurb.

My brother's "cruiser" now looks like a dragster because he had a "GVM upgrade" done, and it's 100mm higher in the back than it was, and 25mm higher in the front. The suspension guy suggested he put 300kg in the boot while he's not towing to level it out but it will still give a rougher ride. My old man spent >$2k on an electronics package upgrade plus more crap on his 200.

I asked them what annoyed them about their cars (aside from the engine noise, wind noise and tractor'ish ride) and they both trotted out a list. I pointed out :

I don't need the "GVM upgrade"
My headlights don't need aligning every time I put the van on the back
I don't need to fart around with the jockey wheel on the van because the suspension does it for me
I have an order of magnitude less wind and engine noise
They both routinely comment they love my car because it's quiet and comfortable
It has rear seats that comfortably seat 2 adults
Plenty of luggage room
I don't need to swing my spare out to open the tailgate
I can fit in any underground carpark
I don't and didn't have to fit bright yellow aftermarket "recovery points" to the chassis
It doesn't have hemorrhoids hanging off the back bumper because when I'm not towing the tow bar takes 10 seconds to remove
It does cost me more to maintain, but that's because I do all the preventative maintenance stuff up-front
I haven't needed to be snatch recovered on the beach because it drives nicely in sand even with road tyres
Nothing annoys me. I can have a conversation with the wife and kids with the van on the back going up hill with it pegged in 3rd gear.


That sorted that.

To at least nod to the topic, When they bring out a comparable EV with a range of > 600KM fully loaded, in 42 degree heat with a van on the back I might consider it.

I’d also like to see them punch a 200 series past a B double to overtake it and come out the other side at 160… [emoji38]

[BradC]

I’d also like to see them punch a 200 series past a B double to overtake it and come out the other side at 160… [emoji38]

I dunno, dads 200 goes like **** off a shovel. Admittedly I've never pushed 160, but it doesn't seem to stop pulling when I put the boot in at 110. Even though it's an elephant of a car, it's not a little motor with a little turbo in there.

For me, If the B double is going that quick that I have to work to overtake it, I'll happily sit behind and get the tow.

[scarry]

I dunno, dads 200 goes like **** off a shovel.

If its the updated model,have you tried it with the "PWR" button pushed?

Dunno how they go against the 3.0L D4,the 200 is quite a bit heavier,but against our old D4 2.7 which was "tuned",the 200 left it in its dust,no hope keeping up with it.

[Tombie]

If its the updated model,have you tried it with the "PWR" button pushed?

Dunno how they go against the 3.0L D4,the 200 is quite a bit heavier,but against our old D4 2.7 which was "tuned",the 200 left it in its dust,no hope keeping up with it.

Something not quite right there.

My 2.7 can easily outdo a 200 on a traffic light sprint.

[shack]

Something not quite right there.

My 2.7 can easily outdo a 200 on a traffic light sprint.I'm with Tombie on this, 200 series are not bad IMMEDIATELY off the line, but then get lost in mediocrity.

Also 200 series quite a bit heavier? Ummmm.......

[Homestar]

Yeah, I've driven multiples of both and the D4's I've driven would all outdo any 200 series I've been in or driven. Also, a 200 series at 140 doesn't feel nearly as planted on the road or as solid as a D4 at 160 (Done on a test track under controlled conditions obviously... [bigwhistle] )

[scarry]

Something not quite right there.

My 2.7 can easily outdo a 200 on a traffic light sprint.

Yours must have more go fast parts than mine did.

I recon the 3.0L would absolutely smoke it.

As for the published weights of the two,LR are not far away,but the other brand seems to be very optimistic,as many have found out.

[Tombie]

Base spec 3.0 makes less torque than mine and easily does the LC200. [emoji41]

[PhilipA]

Hyundai Reportedly Halts Development Of Hydrogen Technology (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/hyundai-reportedly-halts-development-of-hydrogen-technology/ar-AASemTn?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

As well as ICE then.
Ah the wheels of the H revolution are looking a bit shaky.

Regards PhilipA

[goingbush]

Hyundai Reportedly Halts Development Of Hydrogen Technology (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/hyundai-reportedly-halts-development-of-hydrogen-technology/ar-AASemTn?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531)

As well as ICE then.
Ah the wheels of the H revolution are looking a bit shaky.

Regards PhilipA

Hydrogen isn't really viable IMO,
people carry on about EV infrastructure , ( if you have a powerpoint and solar the infrastructure is already there for 90% of punters)
Building a Hydrogen infrastructure will cost a bloody fortune , and then your back to having to queue up for fuel again.

[Tombie]

EV tech will do the same soon.

There isn’t enough material to keep up, the mining is about to increase exponentially in an attempt to extract what we need - which won’t be possible to produce in time.

Current flavour / favour?? Isn’t going to be the solution - certain not an environmentally friendly one.

[goingbush]

will all be walking soon (or swimming if you have beachfront property), so a moot argument really.

[DazzaTD5]

will all be walking soon (or swimming if you have beachfront property), so a moot argument really.

and nothing wrong with walking, I heard they did that back in the ye ol days [tonguewink]

[BradC]

and nothing wrong with walking, I heard they did that back in the ye ol days [tonguewink]

Or as my great grandmother was used to in Kal, the old horse and buggy. Loved the stories of her first dates when the boys used to come around and pick her up in the cart.

[Arapiles]

Yeah, I've driven multiples of both and the D4's I've driven would all outdo any 200 series I've been in or driven. Also, a 200 series at 140 doesn't feel nearly as planted on the road or as solid as a D4 at 160 (Done on a test track under controlled conditions obviously... [bigwhistle] )


Well, mine upshifts at 140 .... reputedly.

[Tombie]

Well, mine upshifts at 140 .... reputedly.

It’s a sad feeling when the D4 pegs the speed limiter and you just know it’s got more in it.

[scarry]

and nothing wrong with walking, I heard they did that back in the ye ol days [tonguewink]

Yes a mile to school,mile back,rain,hail,or shine.
No complaints or you got a back hander.

[Homestar]

Hydrogen isn't really viable IMO,
people carry on about EV infrastructure , ( if you have a powerpoint and solar the infrastructure is already there for 90% of punters)
Building a Hydrogen infrastructure will cost a bloody fortune , and then your back to having to queue up for fuel again.

Sorry but EV infrastructure is and will continue to be a massive issue for entry into the market for most people - in a recent survey most said they weren’t considering an EV as their next car due to range anxiety and just having a power point at home isn’t going to cut it anywhere near 90% of the time for 90% of the people. Yes, perfect for day to day use but unless they know they can drive it anywhere within reason then adoption will continue to be slow.

While I love EV tech I don’t think it’s going to be ready in the timeframes being quoted currently, even if they can get the prices down which doesn’t seem to be happening.

[101RRS]

I regularly drive from Canberra to Newcastle non stop, or if I have not filled up, once for fuel. Not for lunch or coffee - 430km. 1/3 of a tank of dino fuel but to do it in a EV, even a Tesla means a long stop enroute. A Tesla might make it but might not and will take a long time to charge when I arrive.

Sorry EVs might be an ok second car for travel around down but not for longer distance travel.

[loanrangie]

Something not quite right there.

My 2.7 can easily outdo a 200 on a traffic light sprint.Even my stock 2.7 gives a 200 a good run, discos are definitely more nimble.

[ramblingboy42]

I did a search looking for genuine electric 4wd offroad capable vehicles...not an awd suv pos.

surprise surprise , there are none.

there are a few available conversions , which are not cheap , are really unproven and nightmares to insurance companies , ie they won't readily insure an existing ICE 4wd converted to electric drive.

there are lots of futuristic concept vehicles suggesting blistering performance though.

I really feel that if one of the big manufacturers were to engineer and offer a properly designed fully offroad 4WD ute/wagon , it would sell.

I have friends on a number of cattle stations in South Australia who believe if it was available they would buy it.

They already grasp wind/solar power generation on some parts of their properties and solar/electronic operation of bores , gates and refrigeration......another opportunity to rid themselves of diesel reliance is really in their favour.

They dont need huge range on their vehicles to cover everyday usage unlike trying to travel the distances we need.

This would need to be world wide market to convince a manufacturer to build a vehicle.

[TonyC]

I did a search looking for genuine electric 4wd offroad capable vehicles...not an awd suv pos.

surprise surprise , there are none.

there are a few available conversions , which are not cheap , are really unproven and nightmares to insurance companies , ie they won't readily insure an existing ICE 4wd converted to electric drive.

there are lots of futuristic concept vehicles suggesting blistering performance though.

I really feel that if one of the big manufacturers were to engineer and offer a properly designed fully offroad 4WD ute/wagon , it would sell.

I have friends on a number of cattle stations in South Australia who believe if it was available they would buy it.

They already grasp wind/solar power generation on some parts of their properties and solar/electronic operation of bores , gates and refrigeration......another opportunity to rid themselves of diesel reliance is really in their favour.

They dont need huge range on their vehicles to cover everyday usage unlike trying to travel the distances we need.

This would need to be world wide market to convince a manufacturer to build a vehicle.F150 Lightning

[ramblingboy42]

I didnt find that, is it being manufactured on the production line?

available RHD?

any cost known?

[TonyC]

I didnt find that, is it being manufactured on the production line?

available RHD?

any cost known?I believe so

I doubt it

Out of my price range, not that my price range is much [emoji41]

Tony

[johnp38]

I did a search looking for genuine electric 4wd offroad capable vehicles...not an awd suv pos.

surprise surprise , there are none.

there are a few available conversions , which are not cheap , are really unproven and nightmares to insurance companies , ie they won't readily insure an existing ICE 4wd converted to electric drive.

there are lots of futuristic concept vehicles suggesting blistering performance though.

I really feel that if one of the big manufacturers were to engineer and offer a properly designed fully offroad 4WD ute/wagon , it would sell.

I have friends on a number of cattle stations in South Australia who believe if it was available they would buy it.

They already grasp wind/solar power generation on some parts of their properties and solar/electronic operation of bores , gates and refrigeration......another opportunity to rid themselves of diesel reliance is really in their favour.

They dont need huge range on their vehicles to cover everyday usage unlike trying to travel the distances we need.

This would need to be world wide market to convince a manufacturer to build a vehicle.

rivian.com

one motor per wheel, I want one if someone else pays for it.

[chuck]

Jaunt are remanufacturing Series Land Rovers if that counts.

I would love one but a Rivian or F150 Lightning would be cheaper!! & that s with me supplying the Series III.

[JDNSW]

The F150 would seem to be feasible for this use - but need more details, especially whether trayback and RHS will exist and when. And are far too expensive. Rivian could be made suitable but they have shown no intentions to supply such a model, concentrating solely on the recreational and lifestyle market. How many Rangerovers do you see on these places?

But more likely to appear before anything like this, and far cheaper is probably going to be an electric version of the light four wheelers that today largely fill the role of the original Landrover but cannot be registered as they do not meet ADRS. From China. These would probably be suitable for these users.

[ramblingboy42]

I did further reading on the vehicles mentioned, thanks guys , but really there is nothing available in EV for the man on the land , ie cattle stations, sheep stations , farms small and large and mining which would really involve distribution of possibly tens of thousands of a proper work based 4x4 EV available in cab/chassis , wagon , utility including dual cab.

There really isn't a platform to build on as this needs to go production line to have any feasibility.

In the meantime most of these primary producers are going buy Toyota until an EV that really suits their needs comes onto the market.

And so , the cockeys etc will continue their reliance upon diesel fuel even though they would move away from it if they could.

[Homestar]

Farms won’t and can’t move away from diesel as there will be no replacement for machinery needing to run 24/7 for Harvest like Harvesters, tractors, trucks, etc.

[vnx205]

Farms won’t and can’t move away from diesel as there will be no replacement for machinery needing to run 24/7 for Harvest like Harvesters, tractors, trucks, etc.

Do you think there might come a time when battery packs could be swapped in a matter of minutes; probably in less time than it takes to refill the tank with diesel?
It wouldn't be a cheap option, but maybe it will come one day.

[Homestar]

Do you think there might come a time when battery packs could be swapped in a matter of minutes; probably in less time than it takes to refill the tank with diesel?
It wouldn't be a cheap option, but maybe it will come one day.

Can’t see it but who knows. Given top end headers have 700HP engines running heavy duty cycles I can’t see how you’d keep batteries up to them. At the moment you fill the tank each morning before you start with 1,500 litres of diesel which keeps it going for those 24 hours.

Battery packs would be enormous, very difficult to charge when you have the plant 100KM plus from the farm harvesting the back paddocks, etc - I know some farmers who travel their gear 6 hours one way to reach paddocks they own or lease. It would require enormous infrastructure at the farm to charge them and you’d have someone carting them backwards and forwards on a full time basis. That’s just for one unit - now think about the logistics of a large farm running say 3 to 4 headers, 2 grain carts with large tractors and a small fleet of trucks.

We can’t even make cars viable at the moment - farming is a bridge too far to think about at the moment IMO.

[Ferret]

A glimpse of the EV future? Merc EQS EV - voted 'Worst in Show' by iFixit.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FIhGOyAWUAAUWi2.png


Video link below, view from ~4:30 for commentary


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSB_EBb2tGc

[NavyDiver]

Several new EV's out one got my attention. A NEW Mazda mx30ev. With just miserly 220 km range? City car only???

Honestly a bit surprised as it is about $70k same as a well known yank version which goes twice the range. Cannot see that working in a sales sense.

Tow tug run back to work now. I just might load up a toy and come back late :)

[101RRS]

With just miserly 220 km range? City car only???



All EVs are still just city cars.

[NavyDiver]

All EVs are still just city cars.
Yep- Fords is getting close as a are few yet charging here in OZ is still PITA.

"Arriving hard on the heels of news that Ford plans to double F-150 Lightning annual production (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ford-doubles-f-150-lightning-production-150k-units/) to 150,000 units, the Blue Oval is ready to let anyone configure their dream electric pickup truck. The EV's configurator (https://shop.ford.com/configure/f150-lightning/model/customize/pro) launched on Wednesday with full pricing and options to give us the most accurate look yet at how much it will cost to buy one of Ford's potentially game-changing pickups (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ford-f150-lightning-substance-towing-ev-truck-wars/).The good news is that promised sub-$40,000 price is still there, though only before a mandatory $1,695 destination fee. So, really, the cheapest F-150 Lightning (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ford-f-150-lightning-pro-commercial-electric-truck/) costs $41,669 before options. This Pro model comes with a standard battery, which Ford estimates will do 230 miles on a charge. The same battery is standard on every F-150 Lightning (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-pickup-intelligent-backup-power-house/), save for the range-topping Platinum model.
Prices for the better equipped XLT trim start at $54,669 and jump to $74,169 if you select the extended range battery. The larger battery pack should do 300 miles on a charge, Ford estimates, and is a $10,000 option. Moving right along, the Lariat trim rings in at $69,169, or $79,169 with the longer-range battery. On top of these trims is the Platinum, which costs $92,569 before any other options. If you're curious, the truck can top $97,000 with all the gear Ford offers.

"

Yank pricing of course. Not likely to see them here for donkey years

Two head to head in the states in stats are almost interesting :)
It is odd to claim 4wd cred with stupid tyres EV or not[bigwhistle]
176375



https://www.torquenews.com/15524/ford-f-150-lightning-ev-vs-chevrolet-silverado-ev-rst-battle-numbers

[Homestar]

So starting at $100K here when they eventually arrive.

[101RRS]

So starting at $100K here when they eventually arrive.

And the rest - a standard Ford F150 starts at around $150K (as best I can determine) at the moment so the EV version will be a lot more.

[NavyDiver]

And the rest - a standard Ford F150 starts at around $150K (as best I can determine) at the moment so the EV version will be a lot more.

Oddly moving a right hand drive to LHD in EVs might be a lot easier as not a lot of anything thats not fly by wire A US model or two just may get here at the US pricing? "Shipping Your Car to Australia? Car Shipping to Australia from the USA starts at a [B]cost of $1,195 USD with an estimated turnaround time of 28 – 50 days, depending on the make and model of the vehicle and whether the origin in the USA is on the east or west coast." Assuming we will get ripped off as usual that (estimate only) shipping cost and the laws allowing a personal import of models not available here could be an option for some?



On another more important topic- Who pays? I think I should not tax payers. This news is good as if it is profitable business will provide charging as a service and users can pay.
"BP: Fast Chargers Become Almost As Profitable As Fuel

PumpsThe company notes strong and rising demand for fast charging.BP (https://insideevs.com/tag/bp/)'s head of customers and products Emma Delaney told Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/bp-car-chargers-overtake-pumps-profitability-race-2022-01-14/) that strong and growing demand (including a 45% increase in Q3 2021 vs Q2 2021) has brought profit margins of fast chargers close to fuel pumps.
"If I think about a tank of fuel versus a fast charge, we are nearing a place where the business fundamentals on the fast charge are better than they are on the fuel,"

" link (https://insideevs.com/news/560953/bp-fast-chargers-profitability/)
That seem brighter than us all paying for the chargers via taxation like we do in several ways for our current fuel subsidies?

[Homestar]

And the rest - a standard Ford F150 starts at around $150K (as best I can determine) at the moment so the EV version will be a lot more.

If Ford decide to do a right hand drive from the factory the extra $50K required here to do it currently would be gone - but that's a big if yes.

[JDNSW]

You also need to factor in import duty (how much?) luxury car tax, and the cost of engineering to meet ADRs (or prove that the personal import meets them), and GST on all of the above.

[NavyDiver]

If Ford decide to do a right hand drive from the factory the extra $50K required here to do it currently would be gone - but that's a big if yes.

Off topic but why do we stick to the left still? Costs us all a lot of money! "It's a question that arises surprisingly often among travellers, especially those considering renting a car (https://www.statista.com/topics/1197/car-drivers/). Which countries drive on the right and which drive on the left? Approximately two-thirds of the global population drive on the right side of the street. All in all, 163 countries and territories have right-hand drive traffic while vehicles use the left-side in 76 countries.
The bulk of countries that drive on the left are former British colonies including South Africa, Australia and New Zealand. Only four countries in Europe still drive on the left and they are all islands. They consist of the UK, the Republic of Ireland, Malta and Cyprus"

That said the steering aside. Almost everything else in a EV is wired not physical. ( whoops add the brake perhaps)

The 50k might be true to shift a RHD to LHD in ICE. Suspect it is a lot lower in a EV.

waiting for 2024 is sooooo slow[bigrolf] "Toyota (https://www.carsguide.com.au/toyota) this week previewed a total of 16 new electric vehicles – including a model that appears to share plenty with the Toyota LandCruiser (https://www.carsguide.com.au/toyota/landcruiser), as well an electric answer to the FJ Cruiser (https://www.carsguide.com.au/toyota/fj-cruiser)."Toyota released the very first image of an all-electric ute that will no doubt replace the diesel-chugging HiLux we know today - and possibly as soon as 2024 - did the internet begin to light up with comments about it not being a real ute, and that it couldn’t possibly keep up with the diesels of today.Well, I’ve got bad news for you. You’re wrong." (19 Dec 2021) posted before.


Will Landrover surprise us? Suspect so or they are a DoDo

[4bee]

Trucks are getting closer

This Canadian company has orders and suggest commercial deliveries starting this year. It also is working to reduce the cost of fuel cells which may be of interest to retro fitters in the near future. 151494 (http://www.ballard.com/about-ballard/newsroom/news-releases/2019/05/07/ballard-next-gen-fuel-cell-modules-to-power-freight-trucks-in-canadian-hydrogen-project)

One for the Bison Girls.

[DiscoDB]

Off topic but why do we stick to the left still? Costs us all a lot of money!

This is true, but would also cost a lot of money to now make the switch.

The time to make the switch was probably 50-60 years ago before so much of our traffic control systems became automated (such as traffic lights).

Would be nice though if we were a LHD country.

[PhilipA]

India and AFAIR Sri Lanka is RHD and one of the fastest growing markets in the World, as well as South Africa and I think Zim and Zambia.
Also the BIG one is of course Japan.
Oops Malaysia, Thailand ,New Zealand.
As long as Japan produces cars we pay no penalty for them at all.

Regards PhilipA

[JDNSW]

Being an island, there is little advantage in changing sides to drive. Against this is the enormous cost of doing so (think redesigning every significant intersection and road junction in the country - overnight!), and the legacy of cars and trucks with the steering wheel on the wrong side; and remember that the median age of cars is over ten years, so these would be around in substantial numbers for over a decade.

A worse situation exists with buses, which universally have doors only on the left side. Since replacing all buses overnight is clearly impossible, you would be left with the procedure I saw in Rangoon (now Yangon) in the 1980s. They had bought a fleet of s/h buses from Thailand, which drives on the left Burma (now Myanmar) drives on the right. So at every bus stop, the conductor needed to alight and signal the next lane of traffic to stop, allowing passengers on and off.

And then there are the trams. While the vehicles have doors both sides as a general rule, the physical infrastructure of stops is tied to the traffic direction, so again, an enormous amount of structural change to take place overnight.

No, it ain't gonna to happen!

[PhilipA]

I want you to hark back to the big Whinge by VW that nobody would sell EVs in Australia because the subsidies are not big enough.
Guess who is one of the ONLY brands not represented in Australia.
EV sales in 2021 were up @200% from a small base but look at the brands who are here.
Notice that the Porsche Taycan is the top seller, excluding Tesla of course who do not play ball.
13 brands in the market is pretty good product offering to me.
Porsche Taycan 531
Mercedes-Benz EQA 367
Nissan Leaf 367 (370)
Mercedes-Benz EQC 298 (194)
Hyundai Ioniq 5 172
Audi e-tron 108 (64)
BMW i3 67 (55)
Jaguar I-Pace 44 (70)
BMW iX 35
Hyundai Nexo 26
Toyota Mirai 12
PS I don't know why MG isn't there.

[Slunnie]

I want you to hark back to the big Whinge by VW that nobody would sell EVs in Australia because the subsidies are not big enough.
Guess who is one of the ONLY brands not represented in Australia.
EV sales in 2021 were up @200% from a small base but look at the brands who are here.
Notice that the Porsche Taycan is the top seller, excluding Tesla of course who do not play ball.
13 brands in the market is pretty good product offering to me.
Porsche Taycan 531
Mercedes-Benz EQA 367
Nissan Leaf 367 (370)
Mercedes-Benz EQC 298 (194)
Hyundai Ioniq 5 172
Audi e-tron 108 (64)
BMW i3 67 (55)
Jaguar I-Pace 44 (70)
BMW iX 35
Hyundai Nexo 26
Toyota Mirai 12
PS I don't know why MG isn't there.


I suspect Tesla is the biggest seller. They're not in any tables like this because they dont report sales numbers.

Your comments are also interesting because Porsche and Audi are owned by VAG (VW)

[grey_ghost]

I found a new player in the market today..

https://www.aulro.com/mobile-gallery/448886fb6d51cc0f7d8da4584c3d0641.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/mobile-gallery/38d8f67bc6ef04d9e520d6d473f241c9.jpg

Cheers,
GG

[scarry]

No, it ain't gonna to happen!

Never say never.

If the other RHD countries start to change over,and manufacturers continue to drop off manufacturing RHD vehicles,anything can happen.

But anyway,it will be a long way off,and well past my time on this planet no doubt.

[Don 130]

I found a new player in the market today..

https://www.aulro.com/mobile-gallery/448886fb6d51cc0f7d8da4584c3d0641.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/mobile-gallery/38d8f67bc6ef04d9e520d6d473f241c9.jpg

Cheers,
GG


I posted this link earlier in December Tom, There's talk of these coming here.

The Genuine MOKE(R) | Steer clear of imitations | MOKE(R) | Living the dream | Since 1964 (https://mokeinternational.com/)

Don.

[NavyDiver]

Ram TRX racing and losing to a EV[bigwhistle] that's a Ram 1500 TRX supercharged V8
V a Rivian Ute R1T



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkhPNFHkBes

[PhilipA]

Your comments are also interesting because Porsche and Audi are owned by VAG (VW)
really? Truly?

And all those years I wasted in the motor industry including Ford Australia Distribution Manager and BMW Planning and Distribution Manager and I find that out now! (SARC)

But NO VWs. So why did the OZ manager complain? Is it that they could not make money at a VW type price point as opposed to a n Audi or Porsche price point?

Seriously Audis are just VWs in a Tux. Look under and they are identical like Q7 and Toureg, and Cayenne. All the same underneath.

The truth is that VW can sell all they want of ID4s etc in Europe and the risk is less there, if a Chevy Volt recall disaster should happen.
Regards PhilipA

[Slunnie]

really? Truly?

And all those years I wasted in the motor industry including Ford Australia Distribution Manager and BMW Planning and Distribution Manager and I find that out now! (SARC)

But NO VWs. So why did the OZ manager complain? Is it that they could not make money at a VW type price point as opposed to a n Audi or Porsche price point?

Seriously Audis are just VWs in a Tux. Look under and they are identical like Q7 and Toureg, and Cayenne. All the same underneath.

The truth is that VW can sell all they want of ID4s etc in Europe and the risk is less there, if a Chevy Volt recall disaster should happen.
Regards PhilipA

Yep, really and truely. :lol2:

Even the price of the Audi ones are stupid, I'm surprised they sell any of them. Charging that much for a VW... I agree, they would be so far out of the ball park for pricing for a VW.

[DeanoH]

.................................................. ..... It is odd to claim 4wd cred with stupid tyres EV or not[bigwhistle]



It's an oval badge thing [bigsmile1]

[4bee]

Never say never.

If the other RHD countries start to change over,and manufacturers continue to drop off manufacturing RHD vehicles,anything can happen.

But anyway,it will be a long way off,and well past my time on this planet no doubt.




Really? I was just about to post a Happy one year old Email. Bugger it! [bigrolf]

[4bee]

Yep, really and truely. :lol2:

Even the price of the Audi ones are stupid, I'm surprised they sell any of them. Charging that much for a VW... I agree, they would be so far out of the ball park for pricing for a VW.




Seriously Audis are just VWs in a Tux. [bigrolf]

[Gav 110]

Don’t know if this fits in here, but it’s electric and it’s a vehicle, just not one designed to drive on roads

19C-1E Electric Mini Excavator - JCB (https://www.jcbcea.com.au/machines/mini-excavators/19c-1e-electric-mini-excavator/)

At around the $80000 mark, not cheap, but savings on fuel and servicing and 85% battery life after 10 years maybe worthwhile
Also save the ears and nose from having noise and fumes[emoji1531][emoji1531]

[scarry]

A Customer of ours has a new Tesla.

He recons that when he takes his hands are off the steering wheel,it cruises around corners no worries.

But after two audible alerts it slows down and pulls off the road and stops by itself.[bighmmm]

I forgot to ask what it does if it comes across a set of traffic lights or a roundabout while there are no hands on the wheel.

I will ask next time i see him, and report back.

[PhilipA]

I forgot to ask what it does if it comes across a set of traffic lights or a roundabout while there are no hands on the wheel.

There is a You Tube video of a Model 3 negotiating city streets under auto pilot and it didn't do very well running down tram lines , missing turns, stopping at green lights, mistaking road signs.

Also there is another one showing that the lack of LIDAR is likely to cause it to run down children who pop out from behind parked cars (as they do)
Regards PhilipA