EV general discussion

[ozscott]

Yes I have no concern that diesel won't be available at reasonable cost for a long long time. It's cheap and sensible for a 2 tonn plus 4wd in Australia and still safe (albeit a little less safe since low sulphur was introduced in terms of static). With DPF it seems to hit a balance too in terms of the emissions.

Cheers

[JDNSW]

Paul , they said the same at turn of the Twentieth Century, Horse & Buggies were virtually replaced with Motor Cars in 10-15 years & they had little Petrol station infrastructure . History repeats itself & change is implemented a lot faster now days.

The EV Transition Could Mirror The Horse To Model T Transition | CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/07/ev-transition-mirror-horse-model-t-transition/)

Maybe - but horses and buggies were still pretty much in evidence in my childhood nearly thirty years after the Model T ceased production and nearly fifty years after the turn of the tweniteth century. By the time I was in highschool in the mid 1950s they were getting to the stage of "oh!, there's something unusual", but they were still around. When I started primary school almost nobody in our street owned a car (I think they slightly outnumbered horses though).

The last Cobb & Co coach ran between Surat and Wallumbillah in 1929, almost thirty years after the turn of the 20th century.

Although in some respects the change may well mirror the change from horses in the twentieth century. In farming for example, in this country, while tractors appeared early in the century, they had little impact on most farms until after WW2. As an example, one of my nieces is married to a man who, in his primary school days, often had to get up early, round up the horses and harvest them before breakfast, reversing the process after school. The farm my sister and her husband bought in 1970 had only acquired a motor vehicle in the 1950s, and had never owned a tractor.

Certainly in this country, the change to motor cars took far longer than twenty years. Not just replacing horses - remember that until the 1950s or even 1960s, the normal mode of long distance travel for most people was train.

Seems to me that a changeover of thirty years is more likely, although since the takeup of cars was strongly influenced by two world wars and the Great Depression, it all depends on other events!

[DiscoMick]

They're not banning the sales of petrol and diesel fuels, they're banning the sales of new vehicles using them. That includes hybrids.
Europe is already moving to Euro VI emissions standards, which are probably about as clean as it can get, for example with sulphur and carbon dioxide emissions cut to minute levels, without going electric.
Dieselgate was about cheating the standards, not the standards themselves.
I expect EVs will quickly take over the market for vehicles for shorter trips, say up to about 400ks a day, which would work for most people. Long distance will be harder and require a lot more charging stations and truck and bus depots with fast charging.
Public transport will become much more important. High speed electric rail between major cities will largely replace airlines. Ride sharing apps and Uber style services will flourish.
There will be disruption, but it can be done.
The future is interesting. The only firm prediction is that change is inevitable. The key question is whether we fight it or make it work for us.

[Tombie]

That last sentence, if what is being posted reads correct should be...

Do we fight it, or let it make us work for it. It certainly won’t enable the lifestyles we current have with regards to travel, timing, ease of refueling etc.

[Eevo]

Paul , they said the same at turn of the Twentieth Century, Horse & Buggies were virtually replaced with Motor Cars in 10-15 years & they had little Petrol station infrastructure . History repeats itself & change is implemented a lot faster now days.

except the sale of new horses wasnt banned.

[goingbush]

That last sentence, if what is being posted reads correct should be...

Do we fight it, or let it make us work for it. It certainly won’t enable the lifestyles we current have with regards to travel, timing, ease of refueling etc.

Hit the nail on the head, going to be a huge lifestyle adjustment required.

[scarry]

They're not banning the sales of petrol and diesel fuels, they're banning the sales of new vehicles using them. That includes hybrids. .

Actually the article says CARS,not vehicles.

So I presume anything that is not a car is not included in the ban?

Such as light commercial vehicles.

In fact it’s only a half arsed job,as light commercial vehicles do huge mileages often dragging quite a lot of weight around,and therefore a large contributor to emissions.

[DiscoMick]

This BBC story says cars and vans. Doesn't mention buses and trucks.
Says they are bringing it forward from 2040 to 3035 to reduce the number of diesel and petrol vehicles still around in 2050 when they want to reach net zero emissions.


Petrol and diesel car sales ban brought forward to 2035 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51366123)

[DiscoMick]

Wouldn't it be easier to build an EV chassis skateboard for a van than a car, because the 'skateboard' can be longer and have a flat floor, so more batteries could be fitted than in a car?

[PhilipA]

I will take more notice of what the poms say when they stop replacing coal with wood chips imported from the USA, and counting them as renewable .
woodchips are more polluting than coal.
10% of all UK power.

regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Wouldn't it be easier to build an EV chassis skateboard for a van than a car, because the 'skateboard' can be longer and have a flat floor, so more batteries could be fitted than in a car?

Theoretically yes. The challenge is balancing weight.
More weight = less payload or a class change.

Knock on effects are going to be quite significant in the introduction of any of this technology.

[Tombie]

I will take more notice of what the poms say when they stop replacing coal with wood chips imported from the USA, and counting them as renewable .
woodchips are more polluting than coal.
10% of all UK power.

regards PhilipA

Carbon shedding is a big thing in the UK. Move the carbon generation offshore and import was quite popular there for a while.

[scarry]

This BBC story says cars and vans. Doesn't mention buses and trucks.
Says they are bringing it forward from 2040 to 3035 to reduce the number of diesel and petrol vehicles still around in 2050 when they want to reach net zero emissions.


Petrol and diesel car sales ban brought forward to 2035 - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51366123)

Some articles do seem to say vans,some don't,just say cars,so who knows?

By the time this is all supposed to happen,no doubt the politicians would have changed their minds on what to do numerous times.

Which will make it extremely difficult for manufacturers.

Technology will also change over those years no doubt,and needs to vastly improve if commercial vehicles are to be EV's

Without getting political,didn't one of the party leaders at the last election,here, harp on about some plan involving EV's.And we know what happened to him.Just an example of how things change overnight in politics.Another lot gets in and everything is tipped upside down,it happens all the time.

[PhilipA]

Jaguar I pace production has just been suspended due to a shortage of batteries.
regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

Jaguar I pace production has just been suspended due to a shortage of batteries.
regards PhilipAIf the batteries come from China then that's not surprising.

[JDNSW]

I suspect that there are a few supply planners taking another look at their "just in time" modus operandi over the last couple of weeks! In a vast number of industries.

[PhilipA]

I also read a letter in the LRO from a bloke with a RR PHEV.
He made the mistake of inquiring from a dealer the cost of a battery. Now remember the battery is pretty small and will only go 28Miles.
The price is GBP5000 about 10K aus.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

If the batteries come from China then that's not surprising.

Why? Can batteries get the Coronavirus too? [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Why? Can batteries get the Coronavirus too? [bigwhistle]

Just an excuse,they make them up as they go along.

Shortage of batteries,and the massive EV take up hasn't started[bighmmm]

[Pickles2]

I suppose I should have a real interest in EV's, but to date I haven't,...just not interested.
BUT, I am starting to take a bit more notice, can't help it really, there's more & more mention in the motoring press, which from what I've seen & read, has really ramped up during the last 12 months or so.
It's interesting to note that the "Wheels car Of The Year" (COTY) award has just been awarded to an EV, Wheels saying that the Mercedes Benz 400EQC is the best SUV ever produced by Mercedes. It is all electric, has 300KW & 760NM produced by front & rear electric motors, has a range of 340k, & does 0-100ks in 4.7 sec.
It costs around $140K.
Pickles.

[JDNSW]

EVs have been around for something like 130 years. They were quite the thing in the period 1890-1910 for town cars. Quiet, elegant, no gear changes, and you don't have to crank them.

But they were always short range and very expensive, and slow.

Through the decades since then, they have maintained a tiny trickle of vehicles, mostly special purpose, or built in special circumstances, such as the EV built M. Gregoire of Tracta fame for his personal use in Paris during the occupation.

They have been used for a long time in underground mines, and other locations where zero emissions are a major advantage.

And from time to time, they have been put forward as the next thing to replace what we have come to think of as a 'normal' car. Over the last twenty years advances in battery technology, driven largely by portable consumer electronics such as smartphones and laptops have meant that they are becoming practical for a lot of uses, particularly for urban commuting.

They still share one feature that has characterised them since the 1890s - they are very expensive. But range can be adequate for many purposes, and they are no longer necessarily slow.

Because of the doubtful market, existing manufacturers have been unenthusiastic about them, but pressure from some governments has more or less forced them into action, at least for some manufacturers, and the unexpected success of Tesla has probably frightened some of them. Most, if not all industry analysts would have predicted ten years ago that Tesla would have been bankrupt within five years.

Not really anything to do with the fact that they produce exclusively electric cars - but simply because starting a new car manufacturing business from scratch, especially with a mass market in mind, is, on past history, almost certain to end in bankruptcy. Lets face it - most motor manufacturers over the years have failed, either just going out of business or merging to stay alive. And you can count on one hand (and probably one finger) the number of car companies worldwide that have consistently been in the black for the last twenty years without either heavy protection or massive subsidy or both.

Building cars is difficult, very expensive, and very risky.

[manic]

No stopping it now. EV sales are on the up .

More and more EVs to hit the market, prices will come down.

Right now Tesla's are the poster cars for EV tech. Like the iPhone, overpriced ... But many cheaper options are just around the corner. A second hand market will follow.

Watch what happens when EVs become mainstream cool and then affordable!

Old age people driving dinosaur combustion around town will be scoffed at by a growing mass of self declared 'smart' people , who refuse to grow old or behind the times. They will be grinning from ear to ear as they silently accelerate off the lights leaving the old farts lagging in their rear view mirror.

None of the new wave EV drivers will give a flying **** about how it all comes together. They will be on it - pay, plug and play.

Some old farts will find it unbearable and move out of the cities beyond the range of the new tech elite. Most will find that they can afford to change their minds and jump on the bandwagon.

I'm not saying the combustion engine is dead, just that if you haven't got an EV right now, you will soon be able to park one alongside old smokey! [emoji3060]

[grey_ghost]

It’s great news - the more people that buy EV’s, leaves the more petrol for us oldies [emoji1303]

Especially the V8 driving ones... [emoji41]

[Homestar]

No stopping it now. EV sales are on the up .

More and more EVs to hit the market, prices will come down.

Right now Tesla's are the poster cars for EV tech. Like the iPhone, overpriced ... But many cheaper options are just around the corner. A second hand market will follow.

Watch what happens when EVs become mainstream cool and then affordable!

Old age people driving dinosaur combustion around town will be scoffed at by a growing mass of self declared 'smart' people , who refuse to grow old or behind the times. They will be grinning from ear to ear as they silently accelerate off the lights leaving the old farts lagging in their rear view mirror.

None of the new wave EV drivers will give a flying **** about how it all comes together. They will be on it - pay, plug and play.

Some old farts will find it unbearable and move out of the cities beyond the range of the new tech elite. Others will find that they can afford to change their minds and jump on the bandwagon.

I'm not saying the combustion engine is dead, just that if you haven't got an EV right now, you will soon be able to park one alongside old smokey! [emoji3060]

I think EV’s are cool now, just anything but affordable. Not sure how long it will be before they are actually worth laying down money for, I wouldn’t touch a second hand one I shouldn’t think just due to mind boggling stupid replacement battery prices if required.

[manic]

I wouldn’t touch a second hand one I shouldn’t think just due to mind boggling stupid replacement battery prices if required.

As battery packs move over 10 years old, I think there will be enough examples on the road to put a fair value on second hand EVs. Tools to measure battery degredation will be used to help determine fair value.

But I agree, for starters many will be apprehensive buying any EV with an out of warranty battery pack.

But there will be good second hand EVs for the well researched. Many town EVs will be clocking up around 5000-8000km a year so I'm sure many of these battery packs will serve for 10+ years without battery change.

If you look to the USA, Tesla's that have been on the road for 7+ years can be found with 90+% of original capacity. There are Tesla's with over 250,000 KMs on the clock that have 90+% of original capacity.

And then consider the old Tesla batteries are not the best lithium composition for longevity. Other battery techs such as LTO can be flogged alot harder for a lot longer, 2.5x more cycles - albeit with an energy density trade off.

So there will be some very desirable second hand models eventually. And confidence will grow.

[Homestar]

I would have thought the around town battery packs would be in worse condition as they have a limited amount of charge/discharge cycles?

Not saying you’re wrong, but I certainly wouldn’t be an early adopter, glad there are those that will and will lead the way long term though.

[manic]

Around town drivers will top up at home on a domestic slow charger. The charge cycles will be small and advice will be to charge to less than 100% (only as much as you need for the commute). Frequent ultra fast charges to 100% are the killer . So EVs used to travel distance between superchargers would be more likely to suffer advanced battery degredation.

-------

I would like to see EV manufacturers move away from these rediculously huge batteries in the near future. If they don't, every one in the neighbourhood will have one on their driveways for a bit of fun.

These ludicrously massive lithium battery packs should have been chucked off the drawing board... But Elon Musk knows how to sell a vision and has his eyes on the prize. I reckon he's pretty much got it bagged now.

Lithium EVs on the face of it should fail, but I was sure the iPad was going to be a flop and near enough everyone bought one of those. All those iPads must be gathering dust or piled up in landfill by now....

The EV will not be a fad, the electric motor will rule, but it looks to me as if lithium batteries was Elons shortcut to market. A lot of energy will go into making them, and then there is a good chance they will be quickly superceded by something altogether more efficient.


Green hydrogen anytime soon? I hope.

[goingbush]

Been over 2 years now since the DIY conversion, only 10,500km but Ive noticed no battery degradation at all. Should not expect so either as the Cells are claimed good for 2000 cycles at 80% DOD, I've only had about 200 charge cycles at 50% DOD, at that rate the batteries will see me out. They are actually getting better as time goes on, for the first 18months there was noticeable battery sag as they got toward 50% now I dont experience any sag. They are about 5% more efficient in Summer vs winter. Basic as conversions get, no battery thermal management .


https://youtu.be/XFRHdnYZtHM

[DiscoMick]

Nissan Leaf is the top selling EV but Hyundai is moving fast.

[Homestar]

Nissan stitched a customer in Canberra up on a replacement battery pack recently for their leaf - got them very bad press... Car makers have to step up with customer service if they want to sell more.

[vnx205]

Nissan Leaf is the top selling EV but Hyundai is moving fast.

Does that confirm that price is a big factor in the take-up of EVs?

[DiscoMick]

Cheaper is certainly better. The Hyundai Ionic is well priced for a local runabout.

[manic]

Been over 2 years now since the DIY conversion, only 10,500km but Ive noticed no battery degradation at all.

I have an 8 year old pack here, 59k clocked . So similar yearly KMs as you.. Will determine the capacity degredation over the weekend.

Unfortunately time will take its toll on these batteries even if not cycling much.

If the pack has been kept at 100% SOC without any cycles, @25C it could loose 20% of its recoverable capacity in just one year!

Storage in cool environments is much better. For long life you will want the battery sitting at <25C and at <60% SOC when not in use. How many people will sit their cars at 100% SOC in the hot sun!?

Tesla has an active cooling system even when the car is parked to help maintain long life, and they discourage frequent >80% charges on the screen with warnings. So that's probably why they are holding up well on average.

[PhilipA]

Cheaper is certainly better. The Hyundai Ionic is well priced for a local runabout.
At 52K compared to 25K for the petrol advertised at the moment.
27K is a lot of petrol.
Re local runabout Honda Jazz perfect local runabout at 17K auto. so 35K is even more petrol.

Regards PhilipA

[Eevo]

50k is more than the medium years salary.
for a local run about....

[goingbush]

Nissan stitched a customer in Canberra up on a replacement battery pack recently for their leaf - got them very bad press... Car makers have to step up with customer service if they want to sell more.

In Australia salesmen are directed to steer customers away from EV and into ICE , theres a lot more money in ICE with servicing / parts etc . The same would apply if an EV has a fault , they will go out of their way to not fix it, & say " see I told you" EV are not advertised in Australia.


USA Leaf Ad


https://youtu.be/Nn__9hLJKAk


Tesla ad , doesn't do it for me


https://youtu.be/laW8rtUEMyc

[goingbush]

I have an 8 year old pack here, 59k clocked . So similar yearly KMs as you.. Will determine the capacity degredation over the weekend.

Unfortunately time will take its toll on these batteries even if not cycling much.

If the pack has been kept at 100% SOC without any cycles, @25C it could loose 20% of its recoverable capacity in just one year!

Storage in cool environments is much better. For long life you will want the battery sitting at <25C and at <60% SOC when not in use. How many people will sit their cars at 100% SOC in the hot sun!?

Tesla has an active cooling system even when the car is parked to help maintain long life, and they discourage frequent >80% charges on the screen with warnings. So that's probably why they are holding up well on average.

Lithium should not be stored at 100% 3.2V is nominal, about 50% SOC , they should store stable for years.

[manic]

Lithium should not be stored at 100% 3.2V is nominal, about 50% SOC , they should store stable for years.Right, but the point is even without cycles , if your battery is sitting in 30C heat half the year and often parked in a higher state of charge than 50% , then you will be loosing capacity year on year regardless.

You must have lost a smidge of capacity in two years - no? Some of that will be from age alone.

[scarry]

Nissan Leaf is the top selling EV but Hyundai is moving fast.

So which one is going to be found in your garage?



A mate picks up his RAV 4 hybrid next week,after an 8 month wait.It will be interesting to see how it goes.

Apparently its AWD,and has electric motors for the rear wheels,only used when needed,and i presume when the battery has power.So it won't last long in 4WD.

Five years unlimited mileage warranty plus another 7yrs on the electric motors,and 10yrs on the battery.

He did say the plug in model not yet released in Aus uses more fuel and battery power due to the weight of a much larger battery.

Top of range model,about $50K

[JDNSW]

In Australia salesmen are directed to steer customers away from EV and into ICE , theres a lot more money in ICE with servicing / parts etc . The same would apply if an EV has a fault , they will go out of their way to not fix it, & say " see I told you" EV are not advertised in Australia.



To be fair to the dealer and their salesmen, if they have ICE cars on the floor they can deliver tomorrow, but there is a wait list of many months on EVs, and the meal they put on the table for their kids depends on the commission on their sales, do you really have to look for sinister motives? (Not to say that sinister motives do not exist, but these are not necessarily in play at present.)

And delays in repair may well be the result of lack of experience, lack of parts, and lack of skills with EVs.

[Pickles2]

So which one is going to be found in your garage?



A mate picks up his RAV hybrid next week,after an 8 month wait.It will be interesting to see how it goes.

Apparently its AWD,and has electric motors for the rear wheels,only used when needed,and i presume when the battery has power.So it won't last long in 4WD.

Five years unlimited mileage warranty plus another 7yrs on the electric motors,and 10yrs on the battery.

He did say the plug in model not yet released in Aus uses more fuel and battery power due to the weight of a much larger battery.

Top of range model,about $50K
You're talking about a "RAV" 4?....If so, the recently released model is built on a new platform, & the hybrid version is supposedly very good indeed.
Pickles.

[goingbush]

To be fair to the dealer and their salesmen, if they have ICE cars on the floor they can deliver tomorrow, but there is a wait list of many months on EVs, and the meal they put on the table for their kids depends on the commission on their sales, do you really have to look for sinister motives? (Not to say that sinister motives do not exist, but these are not necessarily in play at present.)

And delays in repair may well be the result of lack of experience, lack of parts, and lack of skills with EVs.


Why car dealers don't want to sell electric vehicles | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/car-dealers-dont-want-sell-electric-vehicles-35648/)

[DiscoMick]

You're talking about a "RAV" 4?....If so, the recently released model is built on a new platform, & the hybrid version is supposedly very good indeed.
Pickles.Yes, and Toyota has two decades of experience with hybrids.

[manic]

Don't forget Mitsubishi. They were ahead of Tesla with the all electric I-Miev back in 2009

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV will get an update that will see it do ~100km on battery alone. Up from ~50km on currently available model.

And Mitsubishi will be using the next generation of Toshiba SCIB batteries, which look very promising for longevity.

The battery for the upcoming outlander is probably less than 20kwh. Not a rediculous 100kwh+ as found in 400km+ BEVS. With the little petrol engine acting as a generator , you could use as little as 1litre per 100km (including battery charge assist). And ~500km of range added with every tank of petrol.


I think the townies who own one of these will hardly ever put any fuel in it!

PHEV is going to be the way into EVs for majority of Aussies I reckon .

Once people get to appreciate the cost savings and convenience of at home charging and battery only driving in their PHEV, they are more likely to consider a BEV next time round.

At the moment there are **** all charge points, with Tesla reserving their stations for Tesla only. So a fast uptake of BEV would not go well. In the short term I forsee PHEVs ****ing off minority BEV drivers by taking up public charge points even though they don't really need to plug in to get on!

Will be interesting to see what kind of battery only range the new PHEV defender gets.

[JDNSW]

Why car dealers don't want to sell electric vehicles | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/car-dealers-dont-want-sell-electric-vehicles-35648/)

To quote from that article:-

"This is certainly supported by anecdotal evidence in Australia, where even if car dealers were enthusiastic about EVs (they are not) there just aren’t the cars there to sell."

This supports the point I was making - you can hardly blame dealers fro being unenthusiastic about selling something they do not have, and cannot get.

While the dealership may be concerned about the lack of servicing etc with EVs, this is hardly something the salesmen would be concerned about. And with EVs today costing a lot more than ICEVs, I assume that as the salesman's commission is a percentage of their sales, they make more on selling an EV. While EV proponents make a lot of the fact that EVs need less servicing, and this is to the disadvantage of dealers, it is, in my view, a minor issue compared to the fact that the vehicles are simply not available. And likely to be solved long term by dealers modifying their business model, already under threat from independent mechanics.

And then, of course, as I understand it, Tesla do not use dealers. Whether they can maintain this long term, and whether other manufacturers follow this model remains to be seen. It goes against the trend in all businesses over the last couple of decades to outsource everything possible.

[DiscoMick]

Don't forget Mitsubishi. They were ahead of Tesla with the all electric I-Miev back in 2009

The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV will get an update that will see it do ~100km on battery alone. Up from ~50km on currently available model.

And Mitsubishi will be using the next generation of Toshiba SCIB batteries, which look very promising for longevity.

The battery for the upcoming outlander is probably less than 20kwh. Not a rediculous 100kwh+ as found in 400km+ BEVS. With the little petrol engine acting as a generator , you could use as little as 1litre per 100km (including battery charge assist). And ~500km of range added with every tank of petrol.


I think the townies who own one of these will hardly ever put any fuel in it!

PHEV is going to be the way into EVs for majority of Aussies I reckon .

Once people get to appreciate the cost savings and convenience of at home charging and battery only driving in their PHEV, they are more likely to consider a BEV next time round.

At the moment there are **** all charge points, with Tesla reserving their stations for Tesla only. So a fast uptake of BEV would not go well. In the short term I forsee PHEVs ****ing off minority BEV drivers by taking up public charge points even though they don't really need to plug in to get on!

Will be interesting to see what kind of battery only range the new PHEV defender gets.Yes, the PHEV Outlander seems a good thing.

[NavyDiver]

The future may be a lot closer than I thought given the long term study by BMW with the words ready to commence once two blockers removed. Distribution refueling network and ROI on Hydrogen Production which is a fascination for this black duck. In an investment sense not weird science in the back yard. [thumbsupbig]

159003

BMW Blog (https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/09/10/bmw-i-hydrogen-next-bmw-x5-with-hydrogen-fuel-cell/)

http://BMW i Hydrogen NEXT Introduction – FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle) (http://BMW i Hydrogen NEXT Introduction – FCEV (Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle))

[NavyDiver]

A huge plus for EVs in long range will be a little gem like this PowerCell Ms 30 (https://www.powercell.se/en/products/powercell-ms-30-10-30kw/). I was looking at Power Cell Sweden due to a ship refit they are part of "Bergen-based system integrator Norwegian Electrical Systems (NES) intends to plant a 3.2MW hydrogen fuel cell onto a large vessel currently being designed by Havyard Design for the shipowner Havila. It would be the largest fuel cell ever placed on a major ship, replacing the more frequently used compressed gas. Batteries are planned to store additional energy to make the system fully emissions-free.
“The ability to move to a 3.2MW fuel cell that enables the vessel to sail zero-emission for long distances along the coast will be a milestone within green shipping,” said Stein Ruben Larsen, senior vice president" Link (https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/world-s-first-liquid-hydrogen-fuel-cell-cruise-ship-planned-for-norway-s-fjords/2-1-749070)


Power Cell is also working with a Volvo Xc90 in a range extender test now (https://www.powercell.se/en/cases/volvo-rex/) . This is possibly part of this test with INN Balance.

Suspect the BMW /Toyota collaboration, Power-Cell, Others or a Canadian cool company I wont name as I invested a little bit; Will see several key changes and improvements with fuel Cells very quickly.

Storage is a big topic. We know mass transport of ammonia already occurs world wide and our cool CSIRO developed a method of storing Hydrogen as Ammonia and moving it back to hydrogen a few years ago now. This is discussed in Hydrogen Storage gets real here (https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/hydrogen-storage-gets-real/3010794.article)

My interest might be smaller for our cars in future and a tank with releases hydrogen safely if an accident occur is tucked away in my dream of making my old D3 a long range Hydrogen beast[thumbsupbig]

This could have been in What we are doing while stuck at home. Add my few more weeks to walking with my currently re-broken leg and I clearly have to much time in my bad habit of a favorite topic.

[vnx205]

EVs have been around for something like 130 years. They were quite the thing in the period 1890-1910 for town cars.

According to this article, even longer than that.

However, it seems that about the turn of the century was the peak of their popularity.

The History of Electric Vehicles Began in 1830 (https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-electric-vehicles-1991603)

[INter674]

In the 50/60s in the UK milk and mail was commonly delivered by electric carts...which also in some varieties had solid rubber tyres! They were also common at railway stations and on the docks as haulage carts.

[JDNSW]

Some time in about 1960-70 I remember reading about one of the big shops in Sydney had a tunnel from their store to a warehous about a block away. In the 1920s they had a couple of 3/4 ton trucks converted to electric to transport goods between the two locations via the tunnel. Nearly forty years later they were still in service, with essentially no repairs except regular battery replacements.

I would also comment that trucks with solid tyres were not all that uncommon when I was growing up - and when I got my licence I had to memorise special rules (now forgotten) for solid tyred vehicles.

[goingbush]

Who knew the worlds first 4x4 was actually an Electric Vehicle with 4 hub motors built by Ferdinand Porsche presented to the public during the Paris 1900 World Exhibition.

Historically it was not considered a proper 4x4 because it was Electric so the Internal Combustion Spijker took the mantle.

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/92830115_2858748020873636_588420883308085248_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=102&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=oxSjJ50649sAX8xen-b&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=935bf463d32261b0ce666219820c5388&oe=5EBEFB03

[vnx205]

For a short while the trucks being used underground in the Mt Isa mine were electric.

Apparently there was a time when that was the most economical method, but soon after that when the distance the ore needed to be transported inside the mine changed, diesel trucks became more economical again.

The trucks were assembled down in the mine, but instead of dismantling them to bring them out, they pushed them down a disused shaft. They brought just one out to display in their museum.

At least that is what I was told during an underground mine tour in Mt Isa about a decade ago.

[gromit]

In the 50/60s in the UK milk and mail was commonly delivered by electric carts...which also in some varieties had solid rubber tyres! They were also common at railway stations and on the docks as haulage carts.

I think electric milkfloats continued on until past the 80's.
Apparently the battery pack was sized to suit the milk round, as the batteries got older they would end up crawling back to the depot as the batteries were almost flat.
Mostly used on the delivery rounds close to the depot.

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m4VWrfPNxM)

Worlds fastest milkfloat (Rover V8 fitted) YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDrgfcZHmos)

I'm sure I remember a jet powered milkfloat at Santa Pod dragway but that was a long time ago.....


Colin

[Gav 110]

Aus post are using electric trikes around some of the suburbs of Perth
Some have the posties using pedal power
The postie that delivers to my home in Perth is still using the old Honda CT
He’s dug a huge pit in the front lawn
Then refused to deliver the mail as I got sick of filling it in
Had a couple of words to his manager and now he’s back delivering
He’s dug his hole and now he has to live with it

[DiscoMick]

When we were travelling in Tassie lots of caravaners had electric bikes on the backs of their vans.

[ramblingboy42]

My old neighbour just paid $8000 for an electric pedal assisted mountain bike.

[scarry]

When we were travelling in Tassie lots of caravaners had electric bikes on the backs of their vans.

We used them while in NZ a few years ago.

A word of warning,don’t let the battery go flat,they are bloody heavy,well at least the ones we had were.

They are probably a bit lighter today.

SWMBO is on about getting one,but the price of the good brands is rediculous.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, they are expensive. I can't justify it.

[ozscott]

I suspect the hit to the economy and budgets from Covid19 will set back EV's becoming mainstream for some time.

Cheers

[goingbush]

I suspect the hit to the economy and budgets from Covid19 will set back EV's becoming mainstream for some time.

Cheers

who knows how this is going to end but Tesla look like they are fairing better than the big brands.

Tesla leaps ahead as Big Auto's EV transition plans hit by Covid-19 pandemic | The Driven (https://thedriven.io/2020/04/15/tesla-leaps-ahead-as-big-autos-ev-transition-plans-hit-by-covid-19-pandemic/)

Im just glad I don't have to go to a servo , even if fuel is cheap. Charging at home has great benefits right now.

[NavyDiver]

New cars are fine but I like mine and happy to see a fair few places setting up to change existing classics to quiet but tire burning capable EVs.

"When Prince Harry married Meghan Markle, it wasn’t the romance or the pageantry that set automotive hearts aflutter. It was the couple’s Jaguar E-Type Zero, a classic E-type body fitted with a modern electric drive, that caused a swoon." Pretty sure many of us would love one of these


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kQOB_DanBo

Still a bit $$$$ but prices and importantly parts getting more and more accessible. "You can still get an electric E-Type, possibly for less than Jaguar would have charged. If you supply the Jag, “I think we could do it for $100,000,” said Michael Bream, owner of EV West, a San Marcos, Calif., conversion shop that turns gas guzzlers into electrically charged chariots. His shop has converted a Dodge A100 van, a Dowsetts Comet and some BMW classics, the M3 and 2002. After working out the kinks on the first E-Type, he said, the costs could come down to $50,000." Checking out the bits has me wondering

EV West - Electric Vehicle Parts, Components, EVSE Charging Stations, Electric Car Conversion Kits (https://evwest.com/catalog/)

This 140kw motor is close to my power [biggrin] "VW Porsche Air Cooled Billet Aluminum Transmission Dual Motor Adapter (https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=441&osCsid=ii2u90pc2qcgu9ut4u842hf8p3)
[VW Dual Adpt]
(https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=441&osCsid=ii2u90pc2qcgu9ut4u842hf8p3) (https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=441&osCsid=ii2u90pc2qcgu9ut4u842hf8p3)[B]Price: $1,999.00 (https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=441&osCsid=ii2u90pc2qcgu9ut4u842hf8p3)"Still waiting to see a hydrogen supply and fuel cell to make range a non issue. Excuse me of I posted this Podcast before. It has me listening closely a few times now. Every thing about Hydrogen (https://open.spotify.com/show/2GjMjxgaN3KT7JQVxNjbUo'si=vbZ6ZXCRQzyttdosIRX_wg).
Busses, trucks, trains, ships, forklifts and mining kit are all moving before I get my hands of suitable stuff I guess, Happily that will bring prices down quickly.

Stuff you look at while sitting on my bum :)

https://blog.ballard.com/fuel-cell-electric-buses-denmark

[DiscoMick]

That electric E Type is just a beautiful thing. I am seriously lusting about it right now.

[JDNSW]

who knows how this is going to end but Tesla look like they are fairing better than the big brands.

Tesla leaps ahead as Big Auto's EV transition plans hit by Covid-19 pandemic | The Driven (https://thedriven.io/2020/04/15/tesla-leaps-ahead-as-big-autos-ev-transition-plans-hit-by-covid-19-pandemic/)

Im just glad I don't have to go to a servo , even if fuel is cheap. Charging at home has great benefits right now.

Simply the result of the fact that conventional car sales have been dropping since early last year - but EV manufacturers in general have had their sales limited by production ability. So even if the actual demand had dropped the sales only reflect the ability to actually deliver cars.

[DiscoMick]

Brisbane company charges ahead to keep US electric cars on the road
Brisbane-based firm Tritium to build 1,500 electric vehicle chargers for US market - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-08/brisbane-company-to-build-1500-electric-car-chargers-for-usa/12332290)

[DiscoMick]

Tesla eyes bigger, better EV margins in China with low-cost LFP battery | The Driven (https://thedriven.io/2020/06/15/tesla-eyes-bigger-better-ev-margins-in-china-with-low-cost-lfp-battery/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)

[DiscoMick]

Analysis: With traditional car sales in 'permanent decline', Tesla is soaring to the top of the pile
Tesla is the world'&#39;'s top carmaker on the back of a tech boost and huge Chinese sales - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-06/tesla-electric-cars-boost-raise-ethical-mining-questions/12424092)

[Don 130]

Hmmm Tesla. Big sales, but this from JD Power

2020 Initial Quality Study (IQS) | J.D. Power (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-initial-quality-study-iqs?utm_campaign=2020%20US%20AUTO%20Initial%20Qual ity%20Study%20IQS&utm_content=132680195&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-46775492)

And Land Rover didn't do well either.

Don.

[Homestar]

Given how this is done - ‘ The iconic study, redesigned this year, measures components that fail and features that are difficult to use, hard to understand or don’t work the way owners want.’ - I’d take those results with a grain of salt - Tesla’s don’t operate or drive like most other cars, the user interface is unique and even putting it ‘in gear’ would cause dramas for those not taught how to, so I’d expect a lot of the results Tesla’s get in this chart would be in the ‘hard to understand’ or ‘difficult to use’ rather than breakdowns.

[NavyDiver]

Given how this is done - ‘ The iconic study, redesigned this year, measures components that fail and features that are difficult to use, hard to understand or don’t work the way owners want.’ - I’d take those results with a grain of salt - Tesla’s don’t operate or drive like most other cars, the user interface is unique and even putting it ‘in gear’ would cause dramas for those not taught how to, so I’d expect a lot of the results Tesla’s get in this chart would be in the ‘hard to understand’ or ‘difficult to use’ rather than breakdowns.

Reliability is a key we all like. I saw a report suggesting Tesla was worst in America, Oddly when I tried to find it, it seemed hidden or buried?

When it comes to vehicle reliability, it’s not been a good week for Tesla. There’s been reports that the electric vehicle maker knowingly sold cars with faulty battery packs, and in a recent industry survey (https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/2020070%20U.S.%20IQS.pdf) the marque ranked very poorly for build quality. :Link (https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/2020070%20U.S.%20IQS.pdf)
It got worse

Long term reliability doesn’t look goodIf this news wasn’t bad enough, a recent study in the US from consumer intelligence firm JD Power found that Teslas rank as some of the worst vehicles for reliability (https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-initial-quality-study-iqs) in the country.
The TL;DR of JD Power’s study: new vehicle quality is mainly dependent on trouble-free tech. In other words, don’t buy something that’s bleeding edge and buy from a mature company. It’s worth noting that the survey is built on problems that owners actually deem worthy of reporting.
According to the study (https://www.jdpower.com/sites/default/files/file/2020-06/2020070%20U.S.%20IQS.pdf), Tesla vehicles displayed 250 problems per 100 vehicles. So, if you buy a Tesla you’re almost guaranteed to have at least a couple of issues with it. Not good given their premium price tags. For reference, the industry average is 166 problems per 100 vehicles.

Not pretty

[Homestar]

I personally don’t know either way, nor care much and I’m no Tesla fan. I just think the study done by JD Power is flawed as it isn’t just about reliability, but how the customers perceive things so even things like someone not knowing how to open the glovebox is deemed an issue. That report is about issues - real and perceived - I’d be happier to see a graph purely on mechanical issues that cause the vehicles to need a repair - no idea if that would change the list, but this study is just garbage IMO.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, if the phone won't connect to the Bluetooth, is that really a big problem?

[DiscoMick]

Elon Musk just became richer than Warren Buffett - Elon Musk just became richer than Warren Buffett (https://www.9news.com.au/world/elon-musk-richer-wealth-surpasses-warren-buffett/b8fb3f41-3e58-4449-8a1a-2c16035b9e87)

[scarry]

Yes, if the phone won't connect to the Bluetooth, is that really a big problem?

It could be a huge problem,for some.

Try running a service business,and having techs not having Bluetooth to mobile operating.

[rick130]

Yes, if the phone won't connect to the Bluetooth, is that really a big problem?
It could be a huge problem,for some.

Try running a service business,and having techs not having Bluetooth to mobile operating.That really bugs me when the BT poops itself.
Very occasionally it requires you to stop, turn off and restart.
I average between 50 and 60 calls/day, and a lot of our stuff is time critical so BT and voice dialing can be a biggy.

[rovercare]

Wow, people upset by poor panel fit, reliability issues and electrical gremlins......on a Forum predominately about Land rovers?

"Hypocrisy" meaning here: HYPOCRISY | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/hypocrisy) [bigrolf]

Land rover first manufactured in 1948 and took the best part of 70 years to improve to a reasonable standard, yet have a strong loyal following?

[scarry]

Wow, people upset by poor panel fit, reliability issues and electrical gremlins......on a Forum predominately about Land rovers?


Land rover first manufactured in 1948 and took the best part of 70 years to improve to a reasonable standard, yet have a strong loyal following?

Excluding the last run of Defenders......[bighmmm]

Our D4 is the only LR i have ever owned that hasn't had an oil leak or two or three[biggrin]

Oh,hang on,thats a fib,it did have a weeping PS line which was fixed under warranty.

[NavyDiver]

Ford is adding to the growing list of Utes which could be interesting. 400 mile range promises are. I wonder how much these things must weight with such huge battery packs



https://www.foxnews.com/auto/electric-chevy-pickup-400-mile-range-hummer-ev-suv

https://static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2020/07/gm-evs.gif
(https://www.foxnews.com/auto/electric-chevy-pickup-400-mile-range-hummer-ev-suv)

[DiscoMick]

Electric Mustang not coming here.

2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E officially revealed, Australia ruled out | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/808562/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e/)

[DiscoMick]

Importing used EVs might be a way to stimulate their acceptance, so hopefully it will succeed.

Electric cars have few downsides except price. One company is looking to change that

Electric cars have few downsides except price. One company is looking to change that | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jul/30/electric-cars-green-recovery-price-second-hand-bulk-buy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Homestar]

Importing used EVs might be a way to stimulate their acceptance, so hopefully it will succeed.

Electric cars have few downsides except price. One company is looking to change that

Electric cars have few downsides except price. One company is looking to change that | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jul/30/electric-cars-green-recovery-price-second-hand-bulk-buy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

Can’t disagree with that - price is indeed the biggest hurdle to getting mass exceptance of them IMO. But second hand EV’s might not hit the mark either - I wouldn’t buy one knowing the battery pack could be on its last legs or get me half the KM it used to. Back to square one - price.

[DiscoMick]

I see one of that company's conditions is the battery must be at least 80% capacity. That's good.

[Eevo]

Can’t disagree with that - price is indeed the biggest hurdle to getting mass exceptance of them IMO. But second hand EV’s might not hit the mark either - I wouldn’t buy one knowing the battery pack could be on its last legs or get me half the KM it used to. Back to square one - price.
not to mention the cost of replacement batteries is worth more than the used car.

[Eevo]

I see one of that company's conditions is the battery must be at least 80% capacity. That's good.
not hard for a dealer to fudge that.

[Homestar]

I see one of that company's conditions is the battery must be at least 80% capacity. That's good.

Wouldn't believe that at all - as Eevo says, too easy to fudge and you end up with a car worth scrap value.

I like EV's and would have one if they weren't so expensive - I wouldn't buy a second hand one, so me - as a potential target for this market, still wouldn't move to an EV by doing this - back to the drawing board. Until battery tech is cheap enough that an EV can compete with an ICE vehicle cost wise for purchase - on it's own, not with subsidies, etc, then I'll take a serious look.

[PhilipA]

hey, have you blokes forgotten my post a few months ago?
You can buy a used Nissan Leaf right now and have been able to for months if not years.

Only problem is that their range is sometimes down to 80KM and AFAIK Nissan will not sell the reconditioned batteries for them.
So what cars will be imported by this new mob?
One would have to bet on Nissan Leafs wouldn't one, seeing they are the most sold EV in the World.
Have a look on Carsales .com.
Regards PhilipA

[Eevo]

im still waiting for a good electric motorbike in aust

[windsock]

im still waiting for a good electric motorbike in aust

You might be able to do a repower soon.

Yamaha reveals electric crate motor | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/122281467/yamaha-reveals-electric-crate-motor)

[NavyDiver]

not hard for a dealer to fudge that.

A mate who brought a new mustang was at a stealer considering an upgrade. The stealer who had sold him the car point out bubble rust spots when offering a trade in price! He got the bonnet and another panel replaced under warranty and forgot the idea of the upgrade The stealer stole from himself fixing a interesting fault on a year old car parked and used a long way from the sea.

Buyer beware applies to all cars EV or not.

You can now pre order a Harley Live wire. I wont be (https://www.morganandwacker.com.au/new-bikes/harley-davidson/2020-livewire/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImZb96ID06gIVCXZgCh2EVAzkEAAYAiA AEgIPV_D_BwE). Seems significantly over priced (as usual) for a Harley bike.

"While the number of electric crossovers is somewhat limited today, offerings are slated to grow exponentially in the near future. If we include PHEVs — which we should, because many of them run close to 100% electric anyway (https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jiec.12623) — 2021 will see the space filled by the Toyota RAV4 Prime (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/volkswagen-id3-reveal-frankfurt), Volkswagen ID.4 (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tag/ID.4), Ford Mustang Mach E (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/tag/Mach+E), Volvo XC40 (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/xc40-recharge-the-start-of-something-big-for-volvo), Audi e-tron Sportback (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/audi-reveals-e-tron-sportback) and the MG ZS EV (https://www.caradvice.com.au/805024/2020-mg-zs-ev/). That's in addition to existing vehicles including the Hyundai Kona (https://jetcharge.com.au/resources/electric-vehicle-models/hyundai-kona), Kia Niro EV (https://jetcharge.com.au/resources/electric-vehicle-models/kia-e-niro-2020-charging), Tesla Model X (https://jetcharge.com.au/resources/electric-vehicle-models/tesla-model-x-charging) & Y (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/model-y-whats-the-difference) and the Jaguar I-PACE (https://jetcharge.com.au/resources/electric-vehicle-models/jaguar-i-pace-2018-charging). "

Thats from a vested interest of course JET CHARGE (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/nissan-ariya-range-610-km-wltp). Interesting to note a competitor is talking about adding H2 to EV stations. Not suggesting the cost of either EV or fuel cell is suitable yet.

There plan seems to met my thought the heavy vehicle sector will be first mover in the H2 area. "[B]The initial network will target major heavy freight and transport corridors across Australia, delivering rapid charging or hydrogen refuelling using renewable energy sources."

Costs are about volumes and capacity not theories.

https://thedriven.io/2020/07/28/green-hydrogen-transport-to-get-boost-with-australian-refuelling-station-network/

"one of the main drivers of increased adoption, particularly for fleet managers, are the lower operating and maintenance costs that can be achieve by switching to alternatives to ICE vehicles."

I think that line on cost savings makes the issue over once suitable reliable options arrive. R.O.I. rules at both big and small ends of money. My mustang driving mate had a D2 and made the choice to depart over money. He thinks hybrid ICE/EV would be his choice. I feel the maintenance savings evaporates with a ICE hybrid.

Then again reading about Infinite Blue is a step in the the dream zone (https://infiniteblueenergy.com/our-organization/)despite claims of large funding channels

I want to is a lot different to I am doing [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

The latest model of the Leaf is sold here with a 40kW battery pack, an indicative range of 270kms, and costs about $53,000. There are various ways of predicting range and some overseas reports say up to 380kms.
People travel an average of only 80kms a day, so that should be plenty of range for average usage.
The Leaf, not Tesla, is the world's top-selling EV and has been sold overseas for some time, so there should be plenty of good used ones around, particularly in Japan where taxes encourage rapid turnover of vehicles, to be imported into Oz when say 2-3 years old and with at least 80% of battery life left. The crowd in the story have the batteries tested before deciding to buy.
Another way to think of it is as a mobile battery pack, which can be plugged into the house and store power generated by solar during the day to run the house at night.
I can't afford one now we're retired, but I can see an argument being made for working people.

Nissan LEAF - Electric car of new-generation | Nissan Australia (https://www.nissan.com.au/vehicles/browse-range/leaf.html)

[Homestar]

The latest model of the Leaf is sold here with a 40kW battery pack, an indicative range of 270kms, and costs about $53,000. There are various ways of predicting range and some overseas reports say up to 380kms.
People travel an average of only 80kms a day, so that should be plenty of range for average usage.
The Leaf, not Tesla, is the world's top-selling EV and has been sold overseas for some time, so there should be plenty of good used ones around, particularly in Japan where taxes encourage rapid turnover of vehicles, to be imported into Oz when say 2-3 years old and with at least 80% of battery life left. The crowd in the story have the batteries tested before deciding to buy.
Another way to think of it is as a mobile battery pack, which can be plugged into the house and store power generated by solar during the day to run the house at night.
I can't afford one now we're retired, but I can see an argument being made for working people.

Nissan LEAF - Electric car of new-generation | Nissan Australia (https://www.nissan.com.au/vehicles/browse-range/leaf.html)

Yeah, but who’re have one second hand and risk having a worthless vehicle once the battery dies. There are more than one report of these things ****ting batteries just out of warranty and Nissan not coming to the party and wanting $25K for a new battery. I wouldn’t touch one new or second hand to be honest, Nissan gives me pretty much zero confidence they can do anything properly these days.

[scarry]

Wouldn't believe that at all - as Eevo says, too easy to fudge and you end up with a car worth scrap value.

I like EV's and would have one if they weren't so expensive - I wouldn't buy a second hand one, so me - as a potential target for this market, still wouldn't move to an EV by doing this - back to the drawing board. Until battery tech is cheap enough that an EV can compete with an ICE vehicle cost wise for purchase - on it's own, not with subsidies, etc, then I'll take a serious look.

The same issues with the old grey imports,which were stopped years ago, will rear their heads again.

Sorry,can’t get a part for that model......

Blind Freddy can see this happening all over again.

[NavyDiver]

I think I found a EV car a lot of us might love. The POM have done it with style PLUS in my thoughts

Jaguar XK120 by Lunaz

https://lunaz.design/images/pages/jaguar-xk120.jpg

Stop drooling [biggrin] More picks at Lunaz - Lunaz Design - Classic Electric Cars (https://lunaz.design/hashtag-lunaz)

[scarry]

How many people would a Leaf actually suit?

Not many on here,as an example,I bet.

It’s a tiny little thing,suitable for few.

That’s the issue,they need EV,s that are convenient,and suitable for the majority of people,and priced sensibly.

Until that happens,sales numbers will be low,in fact actual world wide sales have hardly moved in the last couple of years.

Hybrids are now huge sellers,as they suit people’s needs.


And just for a stir,I found the Land Rover 2009 Defender brochure in a cupboard we were cleaning out at the workshop.
Seems they pump out 291grams per km of CO2
Yet a 200 series LC TD, 2020 model pumps out 250grams per km of CO2.

I wonder how much truth is in those figures?[bighmmm]

[Homestar]

Agree regarding Hybrids - big fan of these and have driven a couple as hire cars for a week at a time - I'd have one, and one of the cars on my short list for next year (looking at something at some point to purchase next year) is a Hybrid. No EV made it on the list, as they don't suit my needs as a daily. The Hybrids are also competitive price wise - not a huge amount more these days than their ICE counterparts and is a good bridge between the 2 IMO. I averaged under 6 LP100KM with all City driving for a week last time I drove one.

[NavyDiver]

How many people would a Leaf actually suit?

Not many on here,as an example,I bet.

It’s a tiny little thing,suitable for few.

That’s the issue,they need EV,s that are convenient,and suitable for the majority of people,and priced sensibly.

Until that happens,sales numbers will be low,in fact actual world wide sales have hardly moved in the last couple of years.

Hybrids are now huge sellers,as they suit people’s needs.


And just for a stir,I found the Land Rover 2009 Defender brochure in a cupboard we were cleaning out at the workshop.
Seems they pump out 291grams per km of CO2
Yet a 200 series LC TD, 2020 model pumps out 250grams per km of CO2.

I wonder how much truth is in those figures?[bighmmm]

very little saddly. I love my Disco. A typical passenger vehicle emits about 4.6 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year. This assumes the average gasoline vehicle on the road today has a fuel economy of about 22.0 miles per gallon and drives around 11,500 miles per year. Every gallon of gasoline burned creates about 8,887 grams of CO2. (https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/greenhouse-gas-emissions-typical-passenger-vehicle) Leaf is very old EV tech. The replacement is a "Nissan Ariya. The Next Gen-EV (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYkLjcQP26M)"

499km range for one version looks interesting. Not sure about the skinny seats[bigwhistle] As usual its a next year car anyway[biggrin]. It is clearly not a Deefer or Disco 4wd replacement. The problems with the air cooled batteries in the 10 year old Leaf technology is well known. The Ariya might just save Nissan which looks to be in real trouble on other issues.

[turps]

Aren’t there some of the original Tesla S models getting around with 300,000+ miles on them that are still above 80% capacity.

[Homestar]

Aren’t there some of the original Tesla S models getting around with 300,000+ miles on them that are still above 80% capacity.

No idea - would love to know if there is - that's the sort of thing the EV companies should be shouting from the rooftops if it's true.

[Eevo]

small article on electric motorbikes in aust
Zero Motorcycles: the electric bikes Australia can’t have — JET Charge (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/zero-motorcycles-australia)

Zero Motorcycles: the electric bikes Australia can’t have (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/zero-motorcycles-australia)

January 03, 2020 (https://jetcharge.com.au/blog/zero-motorcycles-australia)


tldr:
But all was not well for Zero. Despite strong interest and development over the 2010s, they couldn’t achieve the engineering or the economies of scale necessary to bring prices down to match combustion-bike levels — not even close.

[PhilipA]

Aren’t there some of the original Tesla S models getting around with 300,000+ miles on them that are still above 80% capacity.
The report I recall was on a limo that travelled from LA to Las Vegas and had 400 K miles on it and was on its third battery.
But it had been supercharged often which kills the batteries.
Regards PhilipA

[goingbush]

Wouldn't be interested in a Leaf but the motors are terrific, Heaps of people importing smashed Leafs into NZ for EV conversions. Not allowed to import cars into AU for parts apparently. You can import the Motor & battery packs, just not a whole car.

You can reliably get 300Hp (220 Kw) out of a Leaf Motor , they are 320Nm standard . Terrific motor for EV conversions. Thinking of going that path in my Power Wagon, that'll give the Bar Treads hell.

For comparison the HPEVS AC51 in my Landy puts out a mere 88kw / 150 Nm .

[PhilipA]

You can import the Motor & battery packs, just not a whole car.

This from carsales .com.au
2013 Nissan LEAF AZE0 Auto



Dealer Car - Used - Victoria


Have a similar car to sell?





Genuine mileage with auction list and all export-deregistration documents, Fully Australian complied, Finance available to approved applicants, Trade-ins welcome, Wide range of Japanese used imported cars in stock to choose from.

This is a used import.
They are available now.
There are 113 Leafs on Carsales.com.au and a number of them are imported.
You EV fans are able to buy one right now so go to it.

Regards PhilipA

[goingbush]

this one has me scratching my head ,


https://youtu.be/zCZWGbeju8w

[Don 130]

He's putting the power of the two motors through a transfer box backwards to get a single input into the second transfer box which is working conventionally isn't he? Why are you scratching?
Don.

[Homestar]

I got the concept, I just though the execution was a bit odd to say the least - the angles on the driveshafts - and being so many, could well lead to issues. That short one looks very strange, and I think will wear the splines very quickly - thought he could have lined up the output of the first box to match the second one, but I haven't watched any more of the videos.

[sashadidi]

Guess this goes here, if already posted sorry in advance.
Welcome to Zero Labs’ electric Series III Land Rover

Welcome to Zero Labs’ electric Series III Land Rover | Top Gear (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/welcome-zero-labs-electric-series-iii-land-rover?amp)

[scarry]

Interesting article here,which is what many of us knew anyway,EV's do not suit many,in their current form.

Hopefully hydrogen takes off.

Jaguar Land Rover betting on hydrogen for big SUVs - motoring.com.au (https://www.motoring.com.au/jaguar-land-rover-betting-on-hydrogen-for-big-suvs-125713/)

[sashadidi]

Europe is making faster cars and better batteries than Tesla


Europe is making faster cars and better batteries than Tesla | Sifted (https://sifted.eu/articles/musk-tesla-rivals-europe-1/)

[NavyDiver]

This is about to make some waves I think.

Its showing a 150kw unit yet a large spec is mentioned by Yamaha and a lexus prototype is almost certainly using this and matches some published specs mentioned in the second video of 200kw about 268 hp per drive and show you can put them in a AWD set up for a mind numbing 4WD 300kw. Clearly the power is not a part of this. Battery, Hybrid or Hydrogen would all work. [biggrin]

With 2021 or even late 2020 for these to roll out in Lexus and others it will be a interesting item to watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMhzkna1nW4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGv0sVChnjc

[NavyDiver]

Now for a LOT bigger than little electric motors

GE for those few who do not know is the BIG boy in the room in power, Engines and a lot more. Oddly I was watching a very interesting ww2 clip on Battle ships, The Biggest Yamamoto and then Iowa a little smaller. Iowa engines were built by GE as was a a few engines on my own warships.
Guess who also makes a lot of the equipment used in all our power generators [bigwhistle] 2 Bob you guessing were this is going [biggrin] Now back to Yamamoto and then Iowa. Who do you think will make the first BIG carbon free power generation plant? I am still hedging my bets on it.


Decarbonizing Power with Hydrogen Fuel for Gas Turbines | GE Power (https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled-gas-turbines)

[NavyDiver]

From GE to GM. 11 billion with Nikola announced on Tuesday.
https://www.gmhydrotec.com/product/public/us/en/hydrotec/Home.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2020/sep/0908-gen2fcs-hydrotec.html


Nikola and General Motors Form Strategic Partnership; Nikola Badger to be Engineered and Manufactured by General Motors General Motors receives 11 percent ownership of Nikola and right to nominate one director; General Motors seizes growth opportunity with Nikola to boldly move into broader markets with Hydrotec fuel cell and Ultium battery systems


General Motors to receive $2 billion equity stake in Nikola in exchange for certain in-kind contributions
General Motors to engineer, validate, homologate and build the Nikola Badger for both the battery electric vehicle and fuel cell electric vehicle variants as part of the in-kind services
Nikola anticipates saving over $4 billion in battery and powertrain costs over 10 years and over $1 billion in engineering and validation costs
General Motors expects to receive in excess of $4 billion of benefits between the equity value of the shares, contract manufacturing of the Badger, supply contracts for batteries and fuel cells, and EV credits retained over the life of the contract
General Motors to be exclusive supplier of fuel cells globally (outside of Europe) to Nikola for Class 7/8 trucks, providing validation and scale in a multi-billion dollar total addressable market
Badger is anticipated to enter production by year-end 2022

[Don 130]

Tesla killer?

2021 Lucid Air: Everything we know about pricing, specs and more - Roadshow (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lucid-air-everything-we-know-pricing-availability-reservations-specs/?ftag=CAD13782fc&bhid=25051678190272141260800696281423&mid=13039039&cid=534149357)

Don

[JDNSW]

Interesting thought - when cars first starting to be built, the issue was getting a reliable engine, but once this was achieved by about the beginning of the twentieth century, a major part of design for many manufacturers became "how can we get more power, without it being too big, too heavy, or too expensive?". Dealing with the power has never really been the issue, and for many buyers, fuel consumption wasn't either.

With EVs it is becoming clear that there is no real direct limit on power. To some extent, this concern is replaced by concerns about battery capacity, but it has become clear that even if you want to design battery capacity for range, it is easy and cheap to also provide power in any EV that a few years ago was only available in a handful of cars that sacrificed everything else to performance.

[scarry]

My local tyre guy was telling me Ev's are great for business.

They wear out the front tyres very quickly.

His comment was the tyre manufacturers are going to have to lift their game.

[NavyDiver]

My local tyre guy was telling me Ev's are great for business.

They wear out the front tyres very quickly.

His comment was the tyre manufacturers are going to have to lift their game.

I used to change a rear tyre on my 2nd motor cycle at least every 3 months riding. Hated it but needed to for staying upright. Take off power in a Jag EV was neck snapping so I agree tire life will be a issue for us who like to get to the speed limit as quickly as our vehicle allows when we move to electric engines. [biggrin] My D3 is happily not pushed to it capability often at all. It is possible not to shred tires on a car or bike I mean. [thumbsupbig]

A report on EV by Bloomberg is a interesting read. Cost parity for Delivery vans and similar by 2022 caught my eye.

BNEF EVO Report 2020 | BloombergNEF | Bloomberg Finance LP (https://about.bnef.com/electric-vehicle-outlook/)

[DiscoMick]

Sleeping while Tesla is doing 150 km/h.
Tesla driver found asleep at wheel of self-driving car doing 150km/h | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/17/canada-tesla-driver-alberta-highway-speeding?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[JDNSW]

Related to that - the 'safety' driver of an Uber autonomous driving vehicle that killed a pedestrian has been charged with negligent homicide. Safety driver in 2018 Uber crash is charged with negligent homicide | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/09/arizona-prosecutes-uber-safety-driver-but-not-uber-for-fatal-2018-crash/)

This is exactly the position of the driver of a Tesla on autopilot that kills someone, and points out the legal situation of self driving cars today and for the foreseeable future.

[scarry]

and points out the legal situation of self driving cars today and for the foreseeable future.

It will be a long time before that is sorted,just in Aus,over 700 regulations need modification.

So i think we can say goodbye to self driving vehicles for many,many years.

[NavyDiver]

It will be a long time before that is sorted,just in Aus,over 700 regulations need modification.

So i think we can say goodbye to self driving vehicles for many,many years.

I am sure many of us would like to say a Good Bye to the small but very noticeable group of people who should never ever been allowed to drive a car in the first place. Saw two unfortunately this morning. One on the wrong side of the road while shouting on their mobile put me on the footpath and a second who was a OMG. Computers- Automated A.I. cars have way to go before they are safe. Some current drivers will never be safe[biggrin]

https://scontent-lga3-2.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/e35/70807217_438267083472233_6741630850357010362_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent-lga3-2.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=105&_nc_ohc=U8U4yxuaHh4AX-v2GIV&_nc_tp=18&oh=e491bbf5fe5083bd2a762583345b3cb7&oe=5F8D5C8D

[JDNSW]

It will be a long time before that is sorted,just in Aus,over 700 regulations need modification.

So i think we can say goodbye to self driving vehicles for many,many years.

We all talk about how dangerous human drivers are, but in fact, if you look at the statistics, a large proportion of human drivers can spend their driving life without ever being involved in an injury accident at all. Let alone one that they contributed to. Just as an example, I am one of them - only had a licence for sixty-two years so far though. And I am not a rarity. The same applied to both my parents and probably twenty to thirty other people that I know well enough to be certain of their driving history. Unfortunately, this does not include my older son, who blotted his copybook while on his Ps. And, as far as I know, I do not know anyone who has been the driver in a fatal accident.

Worth a thought that I know of no software system that can be guaranteed to have this low an error rate.

The fairly well known situation is that a very small percentage of drivers contribute a very large proportion of accidents.

[scarry]

We all talk about how dangerous human drivers are, but in fact, if you look at the statistics, a large proportion of human drivers can spend their driving life without ever being involved in an injury accident at all. Let alone one that they contributed to. Just as an example, I am one of them - only had a licence for sixty-two years so far though. And I am not a rarity. The same applied to both my parents and probably twenty to thirty other people that I know well enough to be certain of their driving history. Unfortunately, this does not include my older son, who blotted his copybook while on his Ps. And, as far as I know, I do not know anyone who has been the driver in a fatal accident.

Worth a thought that I know of no software system that can be guaranteed to have this low an error rate.

The fairly well known situation is that a very small percentage of drivers contribute a very large proportion of accidents.

I agree,but being on the road a lot for work,i often see incidents,where it’s only good luck that has averted a bad accident.

[JDNSW]

I agree,but being on the road a lot for work,i often see incidents,where it’s only good luck that has averted a bad accident.

Undoubtedly, but the evidence that self driving cars will reduce these near misses and actual accidents is singularly lacking. I suspect that one of the factors influencing the fact that you see a lot of near misses is that only a small proportion of the errors that cause these actually result in an accident. This is particularly the case in that you do not see most of the near misses - the driver whose mind wanders and then the car does - but there was nothing coming the other way, or the driver who failed to look at an intersection and got away with it because there was nothing there etc.

Some of these sorts of errors will be avoided by self driving cars - but they will undoubtedly introduce ones of their own, which we don't know about yet. Although some of them are already known - for example, recent tests have shown that no current self driving prototypes can reliably tell whether a vehicle in front of them is stationary, unless it has already identified it while it was moving.

[Homestar]

I think we’ll continue to see small improvements over the years - look at a brand new car today - Son has a new Kia Cerato GT - has all sorts of things to prevent minor and major accidents - lane departure that corrects the steering and keeps you in the lane, auto brakes if the car in front slams on its brakes, etc, etc - all for under $30K. I have a 4 year old Hilux that has ziltch in the way of safety - the traction control is basically useless and the abs marginal. Not that I think the current offering of Hilux is any better mind you, but you get what I’m saying - things get incrementally better with this tech. I still think fully autonomous self driving cars are many years or decades away but one day we’ll get there. Just have to ignore all the BS along the way from the likes of the Electric Jesus disciples etc.

[scarry]

I think we’ll continue to see small improvements over the years - look at a brand new car today - Son has a new Kia Cerato GT - has all sorts of things to prevent minor and major accidents - lane departure that corrects the steering and keeps you in the lane, auto brakes if the car in front slams on its brakes, etc, etc - all for under $30K. I have a 4 year old Hilux that has ziltch in the way of safety - the traction control is basically useless and the abs marginal. Not that I think the current offering of Hilux is any better mind you, but you get what I’m saying - things get incrementally better with this tech. I still think fully autonomous self driving cars are many years or decades away but one day we’ll get there. Just have to ignore all the BS along the way from the likes of the Electric Jesus disciples etc.

i had the latest poverty pack, 2WD Workmate HI Lux,the cheapest one available,as a loan car the other day,as the van was having a biggish service.
The thing had heaps of safety features,it would take over and pull back into the lane,if it veered over towards the lines on the road.Had a camera in the windscreen for the safety braking feature,and maybe something else.I bet a new windscreen won't be cheap.
The latest poverty pack Hi Ace is the same.In fact these have more features,with cameras on each corner,etc,etc.

In the last few years,safety features for some brands have filtered down to all the vehicle models.

[DeanoH]

-.......................................... things get incrementally better with this tech.


Now there's a topic [bigsmile], could be as long as "what's the best tyre for ...................... ", or "The Never Ending Story Pt. II" [bigsmile]


I was looking at getting a new ute recently, as in a NEW ute. I've always liked the Isuzu D-Max so had a real close look at the latest model which has a longer wheelbase but the same overall length as last years model, though $4-8K more expensive. Right up my alley I thought and similar to my old 130 single cab ute which was the same overall length as the 110 single cab ute but **** loads better for load carrying.

It seems the new Isuzu ute has more 3 letter acronyms than you can poke a stick at, all relating to cameras that look at road signs, white lines and won't let you 'speed' above the posted limit, brakes that automatically activate, steering that can take control and god knows what else. I guess I'm not in the right demographic for a new Isuzu ute, I'm buggered if I'm paying $4-8K for all this **** which you couldn't give me on a free ticket anyway [bigsad].

On a more positive note [bigsmile] the recently superseded model has none of this crap and I'd reluctantly forgo the extended wheelbase for a 'cheap' run-out model. It's just a shame that even the 'poverty pack' new model is still weighed down with all these 'enhancements' [bigsad]

Deano :)

[JDNSW]

One of the issues with these "safety features" is that they allow, in fact encourage, the driver to pay less attention to what they are doing.

Recent news item - in Alberta, the RCMP pulled over (eventually) a Tesla travelling at 150kph (in a 120 zone) - with both front seats fully reclined and both occupants apparently asleep.

This is an extreme example, but there are plenty of cases where the adaptive cruise control and lane keeping have enabled inattentive, asleep, movie watching, or drunk drivers to drive into stationary vehicles (several of them police cars with lights flashing), and in a couple of cases drive under semitrailers crossing the highway.

[Homestar]

i had the latest poverty pack, 2WD Workmate HI Lux,the cheapest one available,as a loan car the other day,as the van was having a biggish service.
The thing had heaps of safety features,it would take over and pull back into the lane,if it veered over towards the lines on the road.Had a camera in the windscreen for the safety braking feature,and maybe something else.I bet a new windscreen won't be cheap.
The latest poverty pack Hi Ace is the same.In fact these have more features,with cameras on each corner,etc,etc.

In the last few years,safety features for some brands have filtered down to all the vehicle models.

Good to know they’ve got better in the last 4 years and that proves my post too that things keep getting incrementally better. 👍

[NavyDiver]

Good to know they’ve got better in the last 4 years and that proves my post too that things keep getting incrementally better. 👍


AI in cars for self or assisted driving will get better exactly as you say Homestar. ABS braking is a great example of a fanatic improvement . E.V. batteries, Fuel cells or other are improving at an exponential rate. It always feels like its just a year or two way. My D3 will happily wait.

Only things that does not follow the rule of "incrementally better" is our bodies as we age. Not at all suggesting a USEBY date for you or I[biggrin].

I honestly expect to have a E.V. self driving car or taxi by the time I need to hand over my push bike, Boat, motorbike and drivers licenses specifically due the the incremental changes and improvements we see in so much of the technology. A Tesla battery day this week (I think) just might show a item of two of interest. One or two of the improvements are likely to have Australian company(s) in the mix.

Just back from my rehab- 21km of Lycra Clad horror for any poor onlookers- Sorry [bigwhistle] Incremental improvements can occur even after 50[thumbsupbig] I do not own any Tesla stock. Some of the innovations it has brought about are worth watching so I will myself

https://www.tesla.com/en_au/2020shareholdermeeting

[scarry]

One of the issues with these "safety features" is that they allow, in fact encourage, the driver to pay less attention to what they are doing.

That was said by many about Cruise Control when it first became popular..

Now, after,maybe, 20 to 25 years,there are no statistics to back that claim up.

Hill start assist for a passenger vehicle(less than 4.5T GVM) to me is annoying tech,and not needed.If a driver can't do a hill start,then i can't see how they have the privilege of having a license for that type of vehicle.

Auto headlights and wipers also annoy me,i have them off,but we won't go there, as many like them,maybe i am old school.[bigsad][biggrin]

Just my 2 cents worth

[DiscoMick]

Our Mazda has auto headlights, wipers and stop at traffic lights, which work fine.

It will be interesting if insurance companies start charging higher premiums for vehicles which lack safety equipment, arguing that vehicles without safety equipment are more likely to crash and make a claim on their insurance policies.

[donh54]

MAN and Scania trucks in the fleet both have lane keeping assistance. Don't take over the steering, luckily! On many of the bush roads we travel on, they give lots of "false positives" where there's shiny strips of bitumen.

[scarry]

It will be interesting if insurance companies start charging higher premiums for vehicles which lack safety equipment, arguing that vehicles without safety equipment are more likely to crash and make a claim on their insurance policies.

Lets hope they never do that,insuring an old model Defender or series vehicle will become very expensive[bigsad][biggrin]

And thinking more about it,vehicles with all this tech are much more difficult to repair,so no doubt insurance premiums will rise for the safe vehicles anyway.

Windscreens are very expensive,and just imagine the cost to go to LR to have the camera in the windscreen recalibrated.[bigsad]

The glass guys can do garden variety brands at their workshops,which is still a nuisance,but at least the cost is reasonable.

[JDNSW]

.....
It will be interesting if insurance companies start charging higher premiums for vehicles which lack safety equipment, arguing that vehicles without safety equipment are more likely to crash and make a claim on their insurance policies.

Insurance companies today base their insurance premiums on what that particular model costs them. In other words they base their premiums on what is effectively a combination of the number of accidents the vehicle is involved in and the cost of repairs when they have an accident, and the value of the vehicle (which determines their maximum liability). Another significant factor in some cases is the incidence of theft of a particular model, and in this regard, antitheft equipment (or lack of) and desirability as a getaway car are major factors.

It is very unlikely that this method of calculating premiums will change, particularly with the increased scrutiny of insurance companies, as regulators are likely to demand to see the real life data - which is what they actually use today.

As I have pointed out before, the insurance company data (according to MUARC) shows no obvious correlation between safety features and accident rates (either positive or negative); vehicle colour shows a better correlation (white or yellow is best!). Without this real data they are not going to change.

The major variable in repair costs is the cost of parts and the difficulty of repairs, and both of these are likely to increase with more safety features, although they also vary enormously between manufacturers, and this is likely to be the biggest factor in most cases, swamping the varying accident rate.

[NavyDiver]

Ever just go WOW? I did tonight. I posted a less edited version on an investment forum. I think some of you will see why my jar dropped

....

China has a target of 1,000,000 fuel cell vehicles by 2030 . Very exciting new for....

Ballard Comments on China’s New Policy to Support Adoption of Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles - FuelCellsWorks (https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/ballard-comments-on-chinas-new-policy-to-support-adoption-of-fuel-cell-electric-vehicles/)

I am holding a ...
Current Hydrogen capacity by country data is only a little dated at 2017 (https://h2tools.org/node/820). The spreadsheet shows china at a very low level, comparatively wise, to US, South Korea and Japan.
Scaling up CLEAN hydrogen Production needed for existing steel, chemical and the existing 7000 odd FCEV buses, trucks and similar already operation in China. Add a million to that number adds a multiplier effect share holders ... smiling

....

Contemplated if I waffle to much over a little whisky and re read this again. Excuse me if I do waffle to much I assume a few will be interested.

Fun facts- Whisky inspired "Driving the FCEV for an hour can scrub enough air for about 42.6 adults. (calculations based on Hyundai NEXO)"
Link (https://tech.hyundaimotorgroup.com/article/all-about-fcev-what-powers-an-fcev/)

Good night

[DiscoMick]

UK is moving to ban fossil fuel cars, but not trucks, faster than expected.

UK plans to bring forward ban on fossil fuel vehicles to 2030 | Environment | The Guardian (https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/21/uk-plans-to-bring-forward-ban-on-fossil-fuel-vehicles-to-2030?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true)

[NavyDiver]

Germany has added $9 billion Euro, France $7 Billion to Hydrogen. $2 Billion of the German money if for hydrogen outside Germany[bigwhistle]

Follow the money is getting very easy[biggrin]

The Tesla battery day was interesting. Much longer range.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/l6T9xIeZTds

[DiscoMick]

Elon Musk says cheaper, more powerful electric vehicle batteries are 3 years off | Tesla | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/sep/22/elon-musk-says-cheaper-more-powerful-electric-vehicle-batteries-are-3-years-off?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[scarry]

UK is moving to ban fossil fuel cars, but not trucks, faster than expected.

UK plans to bring forward ban on fossil fuel vehicles to 2030 | Environment | The Guardian (https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/21/uk-plans-to-bring-forward-ban-on-fossil-fuel-vehicles-to-2030?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true)

They can ban whatever they like,but if there is nothing as convenient as we have now to replace them with,that’s the ban out the window.

It’s just another ‘look good,feel good ‘ comment.And a way to look more popular.

It would be a very game government to do something like that,as we are many,many years away from something like that ever happening.The technology and infrastructure is just not around,and it’s not going to suddenly appear in 10 yrs time.

In fact many Vehicle manufacturers are still doing R&D on diesels.
They are long,long way from being dead.

[NavyDiver]

They can ban whatever they like,but if there is nothing as convenient as we have now to replace them with,that’s the ban out the window.

It’s just another ‘look good,feel good ‘ comment.And a way to look more popular.

It would be a very game government to do something like that,as we are many,many years away from something like that ever happening.The technology and infrastructure is just not around,and it’s not going to suddenly appear in 10 yrs time.

In fact many Vehicle manufacturers are still doing R&D on diesels.
They are long,long way from being dead.
Your right of course. Dying but not dead would be the most optimistic / pessimistic view (Pick your side [biggrin])

"California Plans to Ban Sales of New Gas-Powered Cars in 15 Years
The proposal would speed up the state’s efforts to fight global warming at a time when California is being battered by wildfires, heat waves and other consequences of climate change."
Regardless of each big fire/ cyclone/ hurricane/ typhoon/Flooding/Drought costing about a billion $$$$+++ which is/is not (Pick your side [biggrin]) caused directly or indirectly by C02 induced climate change.

How long will insurance cover the millions impacted by those events? My pick is not long regardless of which side of any fence we sit on. Sitting on the fence might give us splinters [bighmmm]

https://idigitalcitizen.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/sit-fence-quote-minh-tan-halifax.jpg?w=600&h=600

[JDNSW]

Tesla's "battery day" includes the forecast that they will be able to produce a $25,000 car in five years as a result of improvements in their batteries.

[Homestar]

Advert confuses Tesla.


https://youtu.be/KqURFUcl5NI

[DiscoMick]

Switching to EVs won't solve society's emissions or transport problems argues this writer, in an interesting take on the move to phase out petrol and diesel vehicles.

Electric cars won't solve our pollution problems – Britain needs a total transport rethink | George Monbiot | Opinion | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/23/electric-cars-transport-train-companies?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[NavyDiver]

This got interesting a close to home [biggrin]

Toyota’s Hino truck division has announced a major foray into electric and hydrogen powered trucks, with Melbourne’s SEA Electric set to partner in the development of a new medium sized truck.
SEA Electric manufactures electric vehicle drive trains in Melbourne and has been converting Hino truck models to electric here and in the United States.
Now the company will partner with Hino in its global Project Z which will expand its range of largely diesel trucks.
The two companies will develop a new electric class 5 truck built on a Hino chassis equipped with an electric drive system supplied by SEA Electric.
Hino will also develop a tractor-trailer powered by a Totoya hydrogen fuel cell, and other truck variants based on hydrogen and battery electric technology from Hexagon Purus and Xos Trucks.
Hino’s senior vice president Glenn Ellis and SVP Glenn Ellis made the announcement, which is a major coup for SEA Electric, in a video posted to Facebook.

The smaller end of the SEA-Drive 70 (https://www.sea-electric.com/products-old/sea-drive-70-power-system/) just might be close to a Disco plug and play. [biggrin]





SEA Electric and Toyota team up for electric trucks | Australian Manufacturing Forum (https://www.aumanufacturing.com.au/sea-electric-and-totota-team-up-for-electric-trucks)

[Old Farang]

Will Your EV Keep the Lights On When the Grid Goes Down?
Will Your EV Keep the Lights On When the Grid Goes Down? | Greentech Media (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/will-your-ev-keep-the-lights-on-when-the-grid-goes-down)


Home battery systems can help during power outages. So can the battery packs rolling around in electric vehicles.

[DiscoMick]

That's going to cause a revolution in energy management. It is already possible in Australia, but is not widely known.

[Eevo]

does the range on an EV go down when you turn the heater on?

[NavyDiver]

does the range on an EV go down when you turn the heater on?

Air conditioning impacts on fuel /energy so you already know the answer Eevo[biggrin]

Some of the new Heat Pump AC units in EV, FCEV or our old ICE are interesting as they use a lot less power.

[scarry]

This is interesting,won't help manufacturers such as LR that produce many heavy vehicles.

So get in and get your vehicle before these rules and taxes start to arrive here.

Looking at actual $,a vehicle that weighs 1000KG over the limit is going to cost an extra $16500 to purchase.[bigsad]

They would be better off teaching people to keep tyre pressures where they should be and to drive sensibly which would also not only reduce fuel,but also reduce brake pad dust and rubber particles from tyres,which are a huge issue as well.

But that will never happen,they just need an excuse for another tax,which is all it is.

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16316281/640/16316281.jpg (https://picturepush.com/public/16316281)

[DiscoMick]

Can't the heater work with the air-con off?
Air conditioning impacts on fuel /energy so you already know the answer Eevo[biggrin]

Some of the new Heat Pump AC units in EV, FCEV or our old ICE are interesting as they use a lot less power.

[Eevo]

Air conditioning impacts on fuel /energy so you already know the answer Eevo[biggrin]

Some of the new Heat Pump AC units in EV, FCEV or our old ICE are interesting as they use a lot less power.


im assuming the heater in an EV is just en element heater as there is no coolant. maybe 2kw heater?

[NavyDiver]

im assuming the heater in an EV is just en element heater as there is no coolant. maybe 2kw heater?

Only the ****e ones. Heat pumps are every cool or hot for very low energy. I have five big ones outside which do my hot water and hydronic heating. Almost all half decent cars and 4wds are using then now I think. Nissan can explain it better than me [thumbsupbig]
(https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html)

[NavyDiver]

Can't the heater work with the air-con off?
Pretty sure all cars including Landrover now refer to air-con as Climate Control [biggrin]

The window down is natural. My staff stuff it up all the time. Several Reverse cycle AC at work have temp controls as does my Disco. They change the fan to manual and wonder why they cook or freeze[biggrin]

[Eevo]

Only the ****e ones. Heat pumps are every cool or hot for very low energy. I have five big ones outside which do my hot water and hydronic heating. Almost all half decent cars and 4wds are using then now I think. Nissan can explain it better than me [thumbsupbig]
(https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html)


oh, so its like reverse cycle aircon.

[NavyDiver]

oh, so its like reverse cycle aircon. yep[thumbsupbig]

[Old Farang]

yep[thumbsupbig]
Not sure who has written that, but I would hope that Nissan cars don't use what is written there!


Conventional air-conditioning systems used an electrical heater, but since the use of the heater directly relates to power consumption, actual driving range was significantly reduced.
Utter rubbish!


Gasoline vehicles re-use engine exhaust heat to provide the warm air for the functions of the heater.

Bollocks! Unless it has an air muff around the exhaust as in a piston engine light aircraft!

All vapour compression type air conditioners can be referred to as "heat pumps". Heat energy is being moved from one place to another, and the only place that after years of working with them, it is only the Yanks use that terminology. And the ones that I know about are just used as heaters, with what should be the evaporator buried in the ground.

I don't know about later Land Rovers, but my ancient Discovery uses a conventional type vapour compression air con system. BUT, the hot water from the engine is also continuously circulated through a separate heater matrix, or radiator type of core, along with the air con evaporator mounted in an air box. The cabin temperature is controlled by mixing the cabin air across both parts.

Reverse cycle air cons still work on the same principle, but the circuit is reversed so that internal part becomes the condenser, and the external part becomes the evaporator.

Modern engine driven car air cons now use a variable displacement compressor, that although it still runs at a speed depending on the drive ratio as in a conventional "old" type, the output, and therefore the load, is regulated to what is needed. A bit like what happens in a invertor type house air con. The end result is a more efficient system energy wise.

Much research has been done on EV cars on different types of air cons, and various systems are now in use. It should also be kept in mind that a big source of heat with a ICE car is now not there, so the cooling requirement is a lot less.

[NavyDiver]

Not sure who has written that, but I would hope that Nissan cars don't use what is written there!


Utter rubbish!



Bollocks! Unless it has an air muff around the exhaust as in a piston engine light aircraft!

All vapour compression type air conditioners can be referred to as "heat pumps". Heat energy is being moved from one place to another, and the only place that after years of working with them, it is only the Yanks use that terminology. And the ones that I know about are just used as heaters, with what should be the evaporator buried in the ground.

I don't know about later Land Rovers, but my ancient Discovery uses a conventional type vapour compression air con system. BUT, the hot water from the engine is also continuously circulated through a separate heater matrix, or radiator type of core, along with the air con evaporator mounted in an air box. The cabin temperature is controlled by mixing the cabin air across both parts.

Reverse cycle air cons still work on the same principle, but the circuit is reversed so that internal part becomes the condenser, and the external part becomes the evaporator.

Modern engine driven car air cons now use a variable displacement compressor, that although it still runs at a speed depending on the drive ratio as in a conventional "old" type, the output, and therefore the load, is regulated to what is needed. A bit like what happens in a invertor type house air con. The end result is a more efficient system energy wise.

Much research has been done on EV cars on different types of air cons, and various systems are now in use. It should also be kept in mind that a big source of heat with a ICE car is now not there, so the cooling requirement is a lot less.



Appologies. I assumed the Nissan link was ok. Heat pumps are perhaps better understood from sandan The Sanden Eco® Plus Hot Water Heat Pump System

is a highly energy-efficient replacement for your traditional electric hot water system. It absorbs heat from the air and transfers it to heat water, in a way that saves energy, saves money and reduces greenhouse gas emissions.
Sanden Hot Water Heat Pumps - Energy Efficient Hot Water Systems (https://www.sanden-hot-water.com.au/)

they do work both ways which is way the newer some what more advanced have them.

If saden are bollocks my hot water and heating might be in trouble [biggrin] Have to add I can freeze water on the output of my heatpumps as a party trick[thumbsupbig]

[Old Farang]

If saden are bollocks my hot water and heating might be in trouble [biggrin] Have to add I can freeze water on the output of my heatpumps as a party trick[thumbsupbig]
Yes, all well and good. But you are talking about Co2. While Co2 is used as a refrigerant it is not the type of gas you want in a car.

To see what Co2 does just take a Co2 fire extinguisher and let some loose.

[Old Farang]

TBH I did not know about these hot water heaters. An air con "heat pump" is basically an arse about air conditioner, as I have posted. It does not use Co2, but the common Freon type refrigerants.

The problem with Co2 is the dangerous high pressures that it operates at. Discharge high side pressure up around 10MPa- 1,500 psi. Better to ask the Fridgies about this crap as it is highly specialised.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/10/f18/emt49_glusenkamp_042414.pdf

[JDNSW]

.....
Bollocks! Unless it has an air muff around the exhaust as in a piston engine light aircraft!

......


Or like VW and Citroen (2CV etc) did for fifty years or more. Not just light aircraft. Surely you are old enough to remember them?

[scarry]

The AC system would probably either operate on R134a or the newer refrigerant,1234YF,which some manufacturers now use.

Whether the system operates on heating or cooling,for a large or medium sized vehicle,i presume it will consume quite a lot of battery power,further reducing the vehicles range.

[DiscoMick]

Found these:

How does air conditioning work in an electric car? | AutoGuru (https://www.autoguru.com.au/car-advice/articles/how-does-air-conditioning-work-in-an-electric-car)

Here's how the air conditioning system in an electric car works - Overdrive (https://www.overdrive.in/news-cars-auto/features/heres-how-the-air-conditioning-system-in-an-electric-car-works/)

[cripesamighty]

A couple of years ago, when I looked at the Tesla car build website, you could pick between models and also work out a theoretical range. It allowed you to enter outside air temps, whether the aircon/heater was running, headlights on/off, what diameter tyres you ran, etc, and all had an impact on estimated range, some by 10's of km's.

[rover-56]

Or like VW and Citroen (2CV etc) did for fifty years or more. Not just light aircraft. Surely you are old enough to remember them?

Or my dear old deceased S1 with its home made one.
Passengers used to complain about hot knees. [bigsmile]
Terry

[NavyDiver]

At 1.916 km (1.191 mi), Conrod Straight is the fastest section of Mount Panorama, with V8 Supercars almost reaching 300 km/h (186.4 mph). The straight is a roller-coaster ride featuring two distinct crests, the second of which was rebuilt in 1987.

I thought this might be interesting. A Tesla roadster specs make it interesting and just a matter of time possibly. No way the battery would last 1000km while racing of course. With the rules requiring 7 pit stops over the 1000km swapping the battery might do it or add a hydrogen Fuel Cell and the range would be in the bag even at speed. Mr Musk might send me a nasty note? [biggrin]

This is the cars base specs! Remove some of the weight and tuning it to a racing beast and I wonder if it would go the distance?



Acceleration 0-100 km/h
2.1 sec
Acceleration 1/4 mile
8.8 sec
Top Speed
Over 400 km/h
Wheel Torque
10,000 Nm
Kilometre Range
1000 kilometres


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw4jkyfY4HE

[Old Farang]

Or like VW and Citroen (2CV etc) did for fifty years or more. Not just light aircraft. Surely you are old enough to remember them?


"Je suis désolé, mais je ne parle pas (encore) la langue de Prost (Alain)."


Ich spreche kein Deutsch. (https://www.dict.cc/german-english/Ich+spreche+kein+Deutsch.html)

But I DID overhaul Bosch dynamo's from VW cars! The foreman used to tell me: "This is the heart of a VW engine". (the fan is on the same drive)

[Old Farang]

The AC system would probably either operate on R134a or the newer refrigerant,1234YF,which some manufacturers now use.

Whether the system operates on heating or cooling,for a large or medium sized vehicle,i presume it will consume quite a lot of battery power,further reducing the vehicles range.
I have no idea Paul, as this crap is too modern for an old fart like me.
From what I have read some of the modern innovation's include cooling coils in the seats, and much better thermal insulation throughout the vehicle amongst them.

As you will know, the common garden variety air con needs a different type of expansion valve set up to be used in reverse cycle, so will need to be designed that way from the start.

All that I was trying to do here was clarify what is a "heat pump" in relation to a car, EV or not. Maybe you or Rick can elaborate on the pressures involved with a Co2 system. Not something that I would want in a car!

[scarry]

I have no idea Paul, as this crap is too modern for an old fart like me.
From what I have read some of the modern innovation's include cooling coils in the seats, and much better thermal insulation throughout the vehicle amongst them.

As you will know, the common garden variety air con needs a different type of expansion valve set up to be used in reverse cycle, so will need to be designed that way from the start.

All that I was trying to do here was clarify what is a "heat pump" in relation to a car, EV or not. Maybe you or Rick can elaborate on the pressures involved with a Co2 system. Not something that I would want in a car!

Rick knows more than i do about CO2 systems.

High pressures are the issue.

Looking at a PT chart,at 0 degrees c,pressure is 491PSI,at 30 degrees it is 1032 PSI,and that is as high as it goes on this particular chart.

In supermarkets it is part of a cascade system,using R134a.

So i doubt it is suitable for auto air at all.But in this modern world i could be completely wrong[bigsad][biggrin]

One of the links Mick put up didn't seem to work,but the other didn't elaborate much at all about how the AC systems in EV's,actually work.I presume they will be a Hermetic compresser of some type,using quite a bit of power from the battery in the EV,particularly in a large to medium vehicle,operating in countries like here.But thats a guess as i can't find much info on how they actually are designed or operate.

[DiscoMick]

Here's something about the heat pump in the Nissan Leaf.

Heat-Pump Cabin Heater | NISSAN | TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES (https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html)

This is also interesting:

CORDIS | European Commission (https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/239889-new-energyefficient-climate-control-system-for-electric-vehicles)

[Old Farang]

Here's something about the heat pump in the Nissan Leaf.

Heat-Pump Cabin Heater | NISSAN | TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT ACTIVITIES (https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/heat_pump_cabin_heater.html)

This is also interesting:

CORDIS | European Commission (https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/239889-new-energyefficient-climate-control-system-for-electric-vehicles)

That is the same BS as posted previously:


Conventional air-conditioning systems used an electrical heater........


When the heater is in use, the external capacitor...........

Arh, must be that flux capacitor in use again!

[101RRS]

That is the same BS as posted previously:




Well actually many non heat pump reverse cycle air conditioners do use electric heaters to gain full efficiency. How do I know - well my house had them.

In cold climates many reverse cycle air conditioning systems were not able to pull enough heat out of the outside air to heat the house in temps below about 2c. So they installed a big electric heating element in the ducting that came on when the A/C could not cope. So you had basically a big fan heater.

I replaced that system a couple of years ago with a 20kw integrated reverse cycle heat pump system and these do not have the electric heating elements as they are supposedly more efficient. But even it has major issues pulling heat out of the outside air when temps are below -2c and irrespective what the thermostat is set on it cannot get temps inside above about 20c - as soon as outside temp rises a bit to say 0c I can get up to near 30 inside if I wanted.

Also in very cold climates, the new heat pump water heaters have trouble heating water when it is cold.

Garry

[Old Farang]

101RRS: Well actually many non heat pump reverse cycle air conditioners do use electric heaters to gain full efficiency. How do I know - well my house had them.

The discussion concerns air con in EV cars, not what can and cannot work in a house.

[101RRS]

If you look back over the posts you will see it is a mix of car stuff (eg Nissan) and none car general A/C.

[sashadidi]

My nissan leaf fully charged last winter with range of 190km on dial,temperature outside was minus 4 celcius,turn on heater air con range states 162 km..,varies with outside tempature of course improving with warmer temps of course and of course fakes more kw and time to reach 100% at present with 16 c it charges to 204 km in theory..

[scarry]

Well actually many non heat pump reverse cycle air conditioners do use electric heaters to gain full efficiency. How do I know - well my house had them.

In cold climates many reverse cycle air conditioning systems were not able to pull enough heat out of the outside air to heat the house in temps below about 2c. So they installed a big electric heating element in the ducting that came on when the A/C could not cope. So you had basically a big fan heater.

Garry

Small to medium reverse cycle AC units for normal comfort cooling don't have heaters anymore.

Heaters are still used in commercial systems,where reverse cycle is not used,or in systems that use chilled water reticulation.These have different zones with re heats,variable air volume boxes,etc,etc,etc.

Even multi headed systems have no heaters,although they can have one indoor operating on heating,with another on cooling.
The Japs have done an excellent job with the engineering and design of such systems.

Anyway,does this have anything to do with EV's,um,probably not[biggrin][bighmmm]

[NavyDiver]

Yes, all well and good. But you are talking about Co2. While Co2 is used as a refrigerant it is not the type of gas you want in a car.

To see what Co2 does just take a Co2 fire extinguisher and let some loose.

Great for chilling a beer issue?[biggrin][thumbsupbig] It wasn't me

Heat pump v not


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ2iQoLg3I8

[Tombie]

This is interesting,won't help manufacturers such as LR that produce many heavy vehicles.

So get in and get your vehicle before these rules and taxes start to arrive here.

Looking at actual $,a vehicle that weighs 1000KG over the limit is going to cost an extra $16500 to purchase.[bigsad]

They would be better off teaching people to keep tyre pressures where they should be and to drive sensibly which would also not only reduce fuel,but also reduce brake pad dust and rubber particles from tyres,which are a huge issue as well.

But that will never happen,they just need an excuse for another tax,which is all it is.

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16316281/640/16316281.jpg (https://picturepush.com/public/16316281)

Pretty sure WA taxes by weight

[Tombie]

Can't the heater work with the air-con off?

What heater? From the cooling pack for the batteries?
Needs pump and fan running.

[Old Farang]

I think that the following is still under development, but may answer some questions:

More Efficient Heating & Cooling Technology Extends Electric Car Range

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/08/more-efficient-heating-cooling-technology-extends-electric-car-range/#:~:text=Many%20electric%20cars%20rely%20on,electr ic%20baseboard%20heat%20in%20buildings.&text=Other%20electric%20cars%20use%20heat,motor%20 turning%20a%20rotary%20compressor.

Innovative Climate-Control System to Extend Range of Electric Vehicles and Improve Comfort


CORDIS | European Commission (https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/239889-new-energyefficient-climate-control-system-for-electric-vehicles)

[Old Farang]

GMC's 1000HP Hummer EV is an 'all-electric supertruck'https://au.news.yahoo.com/gmc-hummer-ev-reveal-001354369.html

Behold the 2021 Hummer EV Edition 1, what GMC is billing as “the world’s first all-electric supertruck.” The four-door crew cab boasts AWD, 1,000 HP, and 11,500 ft/lb of torque generated by three motors run from the vehicle’s Ultium battery pack. That’s enough oomph to reportedly propel it from standing to 60 miles per hour in just 3 seconds, the same timing as the Rivian R1 (https://www.engadget.com/2018-11-28-rivian-electric-adventure-truck-la-auto-show.html), and an announced range of 350 miles.

[Eevo]

di you need a current license to drive an EV?

[Tombie]

di you need a current license to drive an EV?

They wanted a new licence class but it was met with resistance.

[Old Farang]

They wanted a new licence class but it was met with resistance.

That was just SA out of phase with everybody else. [bigsmile1]

[NavyDiver]

This gent had some resistance in his prediction in 2007 of a million EV by 2020[biggrin]

"
By Jeff Siegel (https://click.energyandcapital.com/t/c/94a8d6ddb7874dca90491ce5cac7c5cd-3faf6f10dde841dd8b1674dd4d278a0c)
I can’t believe it’s been 13 years since I ****ed off a bunch of oil investors at a “future of energy” investment conference in 2007.Those were some good times. :)I told them that the internal combustion engine was an outdated technology and by 2020 there would be 1 million electric cars on the roads.The oil investors were not pleased and spent most of the Q&A mocking me, telling me I was too young to fully understand why I was wrong and, of course, why such a claim would only be supported by pesky environmentalists.One guy in particular actually got in my face and yelled at me, saying I was being irresponsible by suggesting such a thing.How dare I question the future viability of a 148-year-old technology.In all fairness, though, I was wrong.In 2020, there are NOT 1 million electric cars on the road.There are about 6 million, and that number is expected to grow rapidly over the next 20 years. In fact, according to Bloomberg, by 2040, electric vehicles will make up about 60% of global passenger car sales and 81% of municipal bus sales.Folks, this ain’t rocket science."

[Tombie]

That was just SA out of phase with everybody else. [bigsmile1]

We expected a battery of responses.

[Old Farang]

We expected a battery of responses.
Ah, so that's what the Hornsdale battery is about!

[Homestar]

We expected a battery of responses.

Watt were you expecting?

[NavyDiver]

Hummer Hummer
https://media.caradvice.com.au/image/private/c_fill,q_auto,f_auto,w_800,ar_16:9/ujeq7gc9dr1rycubm0yi.jpg

A supercar-rivalling 0-60mph (97km/h) time of just [B]3.0 seconds is claimed, and the Hummer EV will reportedly have a driving range of more than 560km from its 200kWh battery.
When it comes to recharging, GM says its 350kW high-speed system will deliver a driving range of 160km in just 10 minutes.
The previously reported 'crab mode' (https://www.caradvice.com.au/883275/2021-hummer-ev-to-get-crab-mode-four-wheel-steering/) – which allows the Hummer to drive diagonally – has been confirmed as part of a standard four-wheel steering system.

165657



https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev?fbclid=IwAR28HN4qDGZqEJB5T-del-_3Kl9-bcLlrGjifiK2eQeECTUNJ9S8ZRYjX1Y

[Eevo]

are EV better or worse at driving though floodwaters?

[Homestar]

Hummer Hummer
https://media.caradvice.com.au/image/private/c_fill,q_auto,f_auto,w_800,ar_16:9/ujeq7gc9dr1rycubm0yi.jpg

A supercar-rivalling 0-60mph (97km/h) time of just [B]3.0 seconds is claimed, and the Hummer EV will reportedly have a driving range of more than 560km from its 200kWh battery.
When it comes to recharging, GM says its 350kW high-speed system will deliver a driving range of 160km in just 10 minutes.
The previously reported 'crab mode' (https://www.caradvice.com.au/883275/2021-hummer-ev-to-get-crab-mode-four-wheel-steering/) – which allows the Hummer to drive diagonally – has been confirmed as part of a standard four-wheel steering system.

165657



https://www.gmc.com/electric-truck/hummer-ev?fbclid=IwAR28HN4qDGZqEJB5T-del-_3Kl9-bcLlrGjifiK2eQeECTUNJ9S8ZRYjX1Y

But like all EV’s, horrendously expensive compared to the ICE version. Early adopters tax isn’t something I would (or could) pay or afford.

[NavyDiver]

But like all EV’s, horrendously expensive compared to the ICE version. Early adopters tax isn’t something I would (or could) pay or afford.
And very very heavy that huge battery would make mud and slippery hills hell I assume[biggrin] Not for me either. Add Luxury car double taxation here and that's a ouch plus for pockets much deeper than mine [bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

are EV better or worse at driving though floodwaters?

Electric Submarines are generally sealed well [biggrin] Diesel tends not to work underwater of course Snorkels work up to a point. I had a DISCO of a time with a little wire short after a relatively shallow wadding once[bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9VMuxPN5Eg

[NavyDiver]

Noted lots of people think EVs only run on Coal powered electricity for charging. If/When in the next year or so at least one Ev joins my place I will add one of these chargers which can ensure all charging is free for me [thumbsupbig]

myenergi Zappi Electric vehicle chargers | Australia (https://www.evolutionaustralia.com.au/myenergi-zappi-electric-car-charger)

If its my wife's the charger will be at work.

[DiscoMick]

The coal objection is a furphy.
If you have solar on the roof and charge during the day, or from batteries, then coal should not be involved. Free power from the sun.
We have installed a 32 amp single phase circuit for running a welder at our separate garages.

EVs usually come with a charger to be installed at the premises.
If we buy an EV in the future I'm hoping we will only need to add the right plug to the 32 amp circuit and we'll be right, as type 2 chargers require single phase 32 amp circuits.

[DiscoMick]

FYI this site has a run down on all the EVs available in Australia, plus information about charging options.
Progress is being made but it still costs about $50k+ to get into an EV. Mind you, lots of $60k utes are being sold, so it's all relative.

I could see one meeting our needs, but the price would need to fall.

Electric vehicle models | JET Charge (https://jetcharge.com.au/resources/electric-vehicle-models)

[DiscoMick]

This EV is taking off.

https://twitter.com/mashable/status/1326023528655724544's=09

[scarry]

The coal objection is a furphy.
If you have solar on the roof and charge during the day, or from batteries, then coal should not be involved. Free power from the sun.

Many wouldn’t have a set up capable of charging their EV or EV’s,without using coal at times.

Obviously this depends on vehicle usage,but at a guess,many that have children and cart them around here there and everywhere would have no hope keeping an EV charged.

Nor would tradesman that use their work vehicles,usually loaded,all day every day.

Sure for some that a small EV would suit,and only use it a few times a week,solar,if set up correctly may be OK.

But for mainstream vehicle usage,EV,s using solar is years away,and may never eventuate,it just doesn’t have the convenience of the vehicles we have now.

Some say legislation will change things,and politicians beat their chests about banning ICE’s here and there,in 20 or 30 yrs time,but in reality,if an EV can’t do the job of a current ICE,this isn’t going to happen.

More than likely fuel cells or hydrogen will take over.

Even Land Rover have said EV’s will not suit the majority of the vehicles they build,and now have joint ventures with other manufacturers developing fuel cells and hydrogen systems for vehicles.

[DiscoMick]

A 3-400km range should be plenty adequate for most people.

[Eevo]

A 3-400km range should be plenty adequate for most people.
need 650 plus and only 5min recharge time.

[Arapiles]

Many wouldn’t have a set up capable of charging their EV or EV’s,without using coal at times.

There's this thing called "green energy" that you can pay your retailer for that means that you're paying to use non-coal energy.


Obviously this depends on vehicle usage,but at a guess,many that have children and cart them around here there and everywhere would have no hope keeping an EV charged.
.

If you have a charger at home you'd actually have more daily range than an ICE because you can top up each night which I'm pretty sure doesn't happen with ICE. Unless you have a couple of thousand litres of petrol or diesei stored at home, and I suspect that would be illegal in most built-up areas.

[scarry]

A 3-400km range should be plenty adequate for most people.

Not many have that type of range in real driving conditions.

It’s like saying vehicle whatever gets 7l/100K,when in actual fact in real driving conditions gets around 10 plus.

Load it and it will reduce even more.

And the few that claim it are tiny vehicles,that won’t suit most.

[scarry]

If you have a charger at home you'd actually have more daily range than an ICE because you can top up each night which I'm pretty sure doesn't happen with ICE..

Can’t fill up an ICE vehicle anytime in a few minutes?

The “Daily” range of the EV won’t suit everyone.

As said it may suit a few.

[vnx205]

need 650 plus and only 5min recharge time.

Who does?

You?

Some people?

Most people?

Everybody?

Or just those fond of the Nirvana Fallacy?

[scarry]

need 650 plus and only 5min recharge time.

If the tech ever gets to that,I bet it will need at least a 100 Amp circuit,probably way higher.

So there goes that possibility for a domestic solar set up.

Or for that matter any domestic set up,using so called green power,or coal.

Fast charging is what many are aiming for to reduce inconvenience,but they forget to inform people that huge currents are involved.

A “standard” 32 or 40 Amp circuit will be nowhere near suitable.

[101RRS]

Now if you live out in the suburbs on you little block with a garage and driveway - and out in the sticks you can park your EV and plug it in ot charge. What about if you live in inner city areas where housing is a house or unit and if a house you have to park on the street (try driving around Ashfield, Balmain, Potts Point etc in Sydney and see how many have to park in the street) - how to you charge your EV.

Locally I have noticed that when shopping center car parks are getting full, non EVs park in the charging bays.

Pure EVs might be OK for some but for the majority of peopel in Aust I do not see them as being viable.

[Eevo]

Who does?

You?

Some people?

Most people?

Everybody?

Or just those fond of the Nirvana Fallacy?


i have 4 cars, and they can all do that.
if im going to replace a car with an EV, i need the same functionality. otherwise the product is not suitable

[DiscoMick]

In Australia, 75% of people (about 7 million) commute less than 20 kilometres a day, says the ABS.
So, most people would get by just fine with a typical EV with a range of 3-400kms, such as a Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Kona. There will always be exceptions, but they don't make a rule.
A type 2 charger, which is either 7kw or 22kw, on a single phase 32 amp circuit would easily recharge such vehicles at home overnight.
This isn't theoretical - people are already doing it.

2071.0.55.001 - Census of Population and Housing: Commuting to Work - More Stories from the Census, 2016 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main%20Features~Commuting%20Dis tance%20for%20Australia~1#:~:text=In%20Australia%2 C%20the%20average%20commuting,than%2020%20km%20to% 20work).

[Arapiles]

Can’t fill up an ICE vehicle anytime in a few minutes?

The “Daily” range of the EV won’t suit everyone.

As said it may suit a few.


How many people do more than 400km per day?

[Arapiles]

Now if you live out in the suburbs on you little block with a garage and driveway - and out in the sticks you can park your EV and plug it in ot charge. What about if you live in inner city areas where housing is a house or unit and if a house you have to park on the street (try driving around Ashfield, Balmain, Potts Point etc in Sydney and see how many have to park in the street) - how to you charge your EV.

Locally I have noticed that when shopping center car parks are getting full, non EVs park in the charging bays.

Pure EVs might be OK for some but for the majority of peopel in Aust I do not see them as being viable.


Well, I live in the inner city and my local council provides free fast-charging.

[DiscoMick]

I went to the Sunshine Coast University Hospital yesterday and there were two Teslas plugged into chargers in the parking station.
If non-EVs park in the charging bays they cop a fine.

[101RRS]

Well, I live in the inner city and my local council provides free fast-charging.

So if you cannot charge at home because you have to park in the street, you would have to drive to the charging station, wait in line until it is free because every other EV in the area is doing the same and then wait for anything up to a few hours to charge up.

Not really practical.

[101RRS]

I went to the Sunshine Coast University Hospital yesterday and there were two Teslas plugged into chargers in the parking station.
If non-EVs park in the charging bays they cop a fine.

Maybe there if parking is controlled by councils - but in shopping centers where the rules do not apply (except disabled) then all the shopping centre can do if a non EV is in the charging spot is to ask the offender to leave.

[scarry]

How many people do more than 400km per day?

In real world driving,how many EV’s currently available,can do that type of mileage from one charge?

And remember,in reality one needs a fair margin or you will have no forward progress on the side of the road somewhere.Or have to find a charging point somewhere and possibly sit in a que and then wait for an hour or so for the vehicle to charge.

For the record,we did 398 km yesterday in our daily,loaded.Didn’t go anywhere today though.

Our work vans often do well over 350 km a day,and that is loaded,ladders on roof,etc.
Sometimes towing.

I am not against EV’s at all,I think they are a great idea,but for the majority,they don’t suit,or are too inconvenient in their current form.
That’s one of the reasons their sales are so poor.

Lots of who har about them by some on here,but who actually owns one?
And if they do,is it their daily driver?

[scarry]

In Australia, 75% of people (about 7 million) commute less than 20 kilometres a day, says the ABS.
.

Less than 20 K a day,75% of people?

Does that include their commute on public transport,or their commute in their vehicles?

It wasn’t too long ago someone was harping on here about the average K’s done a year by cars is 15000.

So someone has their maths not right.

[Homestar]

I think EV’s would work as a second car for the majority of people - and I think a lot of families know this - but won’t pay what it costs to get into one and is worried about warranty and how long they’d get out of one.

They simply don’t make economic sense and until they do, their sales will always fall short of where they should be.

[Eevo]

So someone has their maths not right.


should of been obvious when he said 75% of people is only 7.5million lol

[vnx205]

Around 7.4 million people (or 73% of employed people over the age of 15 years) commuted a distance of less than 20 km to work.Australian Bureau of Statistics (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main Features~Commuting Distance for Australia~1#:~:text=In Australia%2C the average commuting,than 20 km to work)

[Eevo]

Australian Bureau of Statistics (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main Features~Commuting Distance for Australia~1#:~:text=In Australia%2C the average commuting,than 20 km to work)

last time i checked aust has 26million people.

if the ABS cant be that right, they need to be dissolved.

[Arapiles]

So if you cannot charge at home because you have to park in the street, you would have to drive to the charging station, wait in line until it is free because every other EV in the area is doing the same and then wait for anything up to a few hours to charge up.

Not really practical.

1. Fast charger, so 80% in half an hour;

2. Doubt that I'd be waiting for a space.

[Homestar]

1. Fast charger, so 80% in half an hour;

2. Doubt that I'd be waiting for a space.

Already issues with waiting at chargers in the US.

[scarry]

2. Doubt that I'd be waiting for a space.

Me neither,I will be long gone after filling up the ICE at the bowser.[wink11]

[Arapiles]

In real world driving,how many EV’s currently available,can do that type of mileage from one charge?

And remember,in reality one needs a fair margin or you will have no forward progress on the side of the road somewhere.Or have to find a charging point somewhere and possibly sit in a que and then wait for an hour or so for the vehicle to charge.

For the record,we did 398 km yesterday in our daily,loaded.Didn’t go anywhere today though.

Our work vans often do well over 350 km a day,and that is loaded,ladders on roof,etc.
Sometimes towing.

I am not against EV’s at all,I think they are a great idea,but for the majority,they don’t suit,or are too inconvenient in their current form.
That’s one of the reasons their sales are so poor.

Lots of who har about them by some on here,but who actually owns one?
And if they do,is it their daily driver?


Point is, how many people - who aren't driving commercially - do 400km a day?

The original comment was that unless EVs had 400+ km range they weren't practical - but, as I said, how many people would exhaust the range of an EV in one day whilst they were driving around? Given that you can recharge at home at the end of the day.

The biggest selling EV to date is the first generation Leaf and that has about 150km - 200km range, which seems to have worked for a lot of people. More range is better of course ....

[Arapiles]

last time i checked aust has 26million people.

if the ABS cant be that right, they need to be dissolved.


Maybe you missed the bit about "employed people over the age of 15 years ?

Seems reasonable to me that there would be 10 million employed and over the age of 15.

Unless you think that all 25 million Australians are employed and driving to work?

[Arapiles]

Already issues with waiting at chargers in the US.

Is this what you're referring to?

Long queues at Tesla Supercharger station raises questions about the readiness of the EV market - MSPoweruser (https://mspoweruser.com/tesla-supercharger-network-congestion/)

In California, at Thanksgiving. Not an everyday occurrence.

[Eevo]

Maybe you missed the bit about "employed people over the age of 15 years ?

Seems reasonable to me that there would be 10 million employed and over the age of 15.

Unless you think that all 25 million Australians are employed and driving to work?

i read it, it sounds like cherry picking. only employed people drive?

[Arapiles]

Were you aware that the Australian grid is crashing because of EVs? No, I wasn't either, but it must be true because it's written at this climate denialist's website:

The half-mile electric car charging queue in the US << JoNova (https://joannenova.com.au/2019/12/the-half-mile-car-charging-queue-in-the-us/)

"In other achievements EV’s are already causing some grid failures in Australia (https://joannenova.com.au/2019/04/electric-cars-are-already-causing-some-grid-failures-in-australia/) (and we hardly have any EV’s)"

Curious about this, I followed the link and it turned out to be her quoting Robert Gottliebsen - writing in the Australian - about a unnamed acquaintance of his who supposedly lived in an unnamed street in Melbourne where because Teslas were charging the street was being blacked out. Not, you'll note "the grid", being the whole electricity system.

Right.

Renew did an article about this claim:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/murdoch-media-and-the-myth-about-tesla-evs-causing-blackouts-84284/

and actually spoke to the grid operators, who said:

" “In regards to home EV chargers, they are not causing reliability issues, such as outages, on our networks,” said Emma Tyner, who speaks on behalf of Powercor, Citipower and United Energy.

“We have not had blackouts or major network issues caused by EVs in our network,” said Helena Lilley, from Ausnet."

Nonetheless, that baseless claim is still up there on the climate denialists website.

If people are reading that kind of crap is it any wonder that EVs are seen as negatively as they are?

Meanwhile, in countries like Japan, free of this kind of idiocy, people are just getting on with it and buying lots of EVs.

[Arapiles]

i read it, it sounds like cherry picking. only employed people drive?

Huh? It's talking about the average length of a commute for people who are employed. Only employed people commute to work. People without jobs, by definition, don't go to work. Therefore they don't commute. Reference to driving was mine, but the ABS just referred to commuting:


The Place of Usual Residence (the area where a person usually lives) and Place of Work (the area where a person usually works) of employed people over the age of 15 years were collected in the 2016 Census of Population and Housing. The distance between these two locations represents commuting distance on the journey to work. The ABS has calculated data on commuting distances based on the assumption that a person has followed the shortest road network path, or where this was not possible a straight line distance, with no stops when commuting to work. This data can inform policy and research around the commuting behaviours of Australians and highlight differences across the country in the design and sustainability of towns and cities.

Accompanying this data are Interactive Maps that have been created to visualise the commuting distances of employed Australians by Statistical Area Level 2 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1270.0.55.001~July%202016~Main%20Features~Statisti cal%20Area%20Level%202%20(SA2)~10014) (SA2s). SA2s are medium-sized general purpose areas, which represent a community that interacts together both socially and economically. The maps can be viewed from Interactive Maps - Commuting Distance (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/2071.0.55.001~2016~Main%20Features~Interactive%20M aps%20-%20Commuting%20Distance~20), just use a keyword area like ‘Melbourne’ to get started:

Commuting Distance from Place of Usual Residence
Commuting Distance to Place of Work


This article has focused on the concept of ‘everyday commutes’ and as such data on average commuting distances has only included commutes less than 250 kilometres (km). This threshold is considered a likely maximum distance for a daily commute and has been based on previous analysis conducted by the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics (https://bitre.gov.au/publications/2015/is_073.aspx) (BITRE) in the Australia's commuting distance: cities and regions (https://bitre.gov.au/publications/2015/is_073.aspx) paper.

More information on the methodology for calculating distance to work can be found in the Explanatory Notes tab at the top of this page.


AVERAGE DISTANCE FROM PLACE OF USUAL RESIDENCE

This section of the article explores the distance people travel to work based on the area where they live. In Australia, the average commuting distance people travelled from their place of usual residence was 16.0 kilometres (km). Around 7.4 million people (or 73% of employed people over the age of 15 years) commuted a distance of less than 20 km to work.

[Eevo]

Huh? It's talking about the average length of a commute for people who are employed. Only employed people commute to work. People without jobs, by definition, don't go to work. Therefore they don't commute. Reference to driving was mine, but the ABS just referred to commuting:


and no one else drives a car? what a meaningless statistic.

[Tombie]

How many people do more than 400km per day?

Me
Mrs Tombie
at least 10-15 others I know directly.
And half of the people on the Iron Triangle.

Too many trade offs at the moment.

[Tombie]

I think EV’s would work as a second car for the majority of people - and I think a lot of families know this - but won’t pay what it costs to get into one and is worried about warranty and how long they’d get out of one.

They simply don’t make economic sense and until they do, their sales will always fall short of where they should be.

Exactly.

Mum is looking to replace her ageing vehicle and spoke to me about getting a PHEV.
My response - find the vehicle you like and just buy the normal one.

She will long have given up driving before she comes close to spending the difference

[Arapiles]

and no one else drives a car? what a meaningless statistic.


Again ... the ABS was discussing how far people who commute to work travel.

And, according the 2016 census, 73% of those people who commute to work do less than 20km. So, if they were driving, they're not going to need 800km range.

[Arapiles]

Me
Mrs Tombie
at least 10-15 others I know directly.
And half of the people on the Iron Triangle.
Too many trade offs at the moment.

You live in Whyalla. I grew up in the Wimmera and used to do a couple of hours on the schoolbus every day, but that experience wasn't common even in my country town. I'd suspect that a couple of my siblings would do 50,000km a year with their work and sport commitments, but, again, that's not typical in Australia.

[Tombie]

Again ... the ABS was discussing how far people who commute to work travel.

And, according the 2016 census, 73% of those people who commute to work do less than 20km. So, if they were driving, they're not going to need 800km range.

If it’s their “only runs to work” vehicle.

The whole popularity of Dual cabs for example was that tradies could use it all day and on the evenings/weekend it could be used to haul the family around.

I want a vehicle that can do everything to some extent.
Run me to work,
Run my to the next town,
Run me to Adelaide and back same day,
Tow it’s rated mass with a reasonable range,
Fuel up in under 5 min.


I still have my Cybertruck order in, so I want to see this stuff take off, at the moment it isn’t good enough

[PhilipA]

I looked at the practicality of a used Nissan Leaf as they are under $20K second hand and usually have about 120Km range left.

My wife does only about 20Km a day but every 2 weeks or so will go to a golf course maybe 100Km away.

We live at the Central Coast and my son lives in Kellyville so about 160KM or more on the M1 which of course can have an accident at any time.

So this just disqualifies a Nissan Leaf .
This is what is available today , not maybe 10 years time.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

last time i checked aust has 26million people.

if the ABS cant be that right, they need to be dissolved.That's 75% of the workforce, not the population.

[DiscoMick]

Maybe there if parking is controlled by councils - but in shopping centers where the rules do not apply (except disabled) then all the shopping centre can do if a non EV is in the charging spot is to ask the offender to leave.That parking station is run by a company, which is why it costs about twice as much as council parking.

[DiscoMick]

Less than 20 K a day,75% of people?

Does that include their commute on public transport,or their commute in their vehicles?

It wasn’t too long ago someone was harping on here about the average K’s done a year by cars is 15000.

So someone has their maths not right.The ABS did the survey. The details are in there. I posted the link.

[DiscoMick]

Exactly.

Mum is looking to replace her ageing vehicle and spoke to me about getting a PHEV.
My response - find the vehicle you like and just buy the normal one.

She will long have given up driving before she comes close to spending the differenceLots of second hand PHEVs and Hybrids around. They are a good interim choice until EVs take over.

I'm seeing lots of hybrid Camrys and Corollas, for example. The economics definitely stack up for them. That's why so many taxis are hybrid Camrys. Taxi operators are totally hard-nosed and wouldn't go hybrid until it saved them money.
What's not to like about your first 20ks or so being on electric? That covers about three quarters of most peoples' trips.

I posted a link above to a site with the details of all the EVs currently sold in Oz. Some have a range of well over the 3-400 Ks I mentioned above.

It just surprises me that some people are determined to reject EVs, even when they have to contort themselves and stand on their heads to do it. It's not political, it's just progress. What's to fear?

[vnx205]

last time i checked aust has 26million people.

if the ABS cant be that right, they need to be dissolved.

Did you check the date on the ABS article?

Unless the last time you checked was in 2016, you comment is pointless.

[DiscoMick]

I looked at the practicality of a used Nissan Leaf as they are under $20K second hand and usually have about 120Km range left.

My wife does only about 20Km a day but every 2 weeks or so will go to a golf course maybe 100Km away.

We live at the Central Coast and my son lives in Kellyville so about 160KM or more on the M1 which of course can have an accident at any time.

So this just disqualifies a Nissan Leaf .
This is what is available today , not maybe 10 years time.

Regards PhilipAPrices still need to fall on new ones with longer range so they become more common on the second hand market.
As an interim measure another option might be a PHEV or Hybrid, such as the small Toyota PriusC, so short trips could be electric. Fuel economy 3.9 l/100kms and a range of 900 kms, so what's not to like?
I just checked and there are currently 59 Prius Cs on Car sales.

Check out these cars: carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/results?q=%28C.Make.Toyota._.Model.Prius%20C.%29&sort=TopDeal)

[scarry]

Were you aware that the Australian grid is crashing because of EVs? No, I wasn't either, but it must be true because it's written at this climate denialist's website:

The half-mile electric car charging queue in the US << JoNova (https://joannenova.com.au/2019/12/the-half-mile-car-charging-queue-in-the-us/)

"In other achievements EV’s are already causing some grid failures in Australia (https://joannenova.com.au/2019/04/electric-cars-are-already-causing-some-grid-failures-in-australia/) (and we hardly have any EV’s)"

Curious about this, I followed the link and it turned out to be her quoting Robert Gottliebsen - writing in the Australian - about a unnamed acquaintance of his who supposedly lived in an unnamed street in Melbourne where because Teslas were charging the street was being blacked out. Not, you'll note "the grid", being the whole electricity system.

Right.

Renew did an article about this claim:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/murdoch-media-and-the-myth-about-tesla-evs-causing-blackouts-84284/

and actually spoke to the grid operators, who said:

" “In regards to home EV chargers, they are not causing reliability issues, such as outages, on our networks,” said Emma Tyner, who speaks on behalf of Powercor, Citipower and United Energy.

“We have not had blackouts or major network issues caused by EVs in our network,” said Helena Lilley, from Ausnet."

Nonetheless, that baseless claim is still up there on the climate denialists website.

If people are reading that kind of crap is it any wonder that EVs are seen as negatively as they are?

Meanwhile, in countries like Japan, free of this kind of idiocy, people are just getting on with it and buying lots of EVs.








Even though the facts in the article may not be correct,the issue of where the power will come from and the huge upgrades that will be needed to the current electrical system is another issue many seem to have forgotten about,or ignore.

Sure some may come from solar,if people have a system that will do the job at home,but many will be using charging stations elsewhere.

As an example imagine the power that needs to be available for a medium sized shopping centre that has a couple of hundred charging points.

Not one service station that has been built in Aus in the last two years,and that is around 200,has any infrastructure for charging EV’s.This is due to the huge cost of infrastructure to provide the power that is needed.

As I have said before,sure they may suit some,but for many they won’t.

[DiscoMick]

That's just normal grid upgrades. EVs are only a tiny part of that. The major cause is people running more and more electric devices in their homes, workplaces and schools e.g every high school student now needs a laptop.
State governments and power companies are moving to upgrade their infrastructure to meet future demand. The East Coast power grid is being connected more closely all the time, so that power generated anywhere with a grid connection can be moved anywhere as needed. SA and Qld power NSW and Victoria quite often.
It's just progress.
The charging issue will be solved when our federal government finally copies other countries and requires charging points to be included in service stations, parking lots and workplaces. One day, this will be considered a normal cost of development, like supplying power or water is today.

[Arapiles]

I looked at the practicality of a used Nissan Leaf as they are under $20K second hand and usually have about 120Km range left.

My wife does only about 20Km a day but every 2 weeks or so will go to a golf course maybe 100Km away.

We live at the Central Coast and my son lives in Kellyville so about 160KM or more on the M1 which of course can have an accident at any time.

So this just disqualifies a Nissan Leaf .
This is what is available today , not maybe 10 years time.

Regards PhilipA


Still, for about $30K you can import a current e+ Leaf that has about 350kms range.

[Arapiles]

Lots of second hand PHEVs and Hybrids around. They are a good interim choice until EVs take over.

I'm seeing lots of hybrid Camrys and Corollas, for example. The economics definitely stack up for them. That's why so many taxis are hybrid Camrys. Taxi operators are totally hard-nosed and wouldn't go hybrid until it saved them money.
What's not to like about your first 20ks or so being on electric? That covers about three quarters of most peoples' trips.

I posted a link above to a site with the details of all the EVs currently sold in Oz. Some have a range of well over the 3-400 Ks I mentioned above.

It just surprises me that some people are determined to reject EVs, even when they have to contort themselves and stand on their heads to do it. It's not political, it's just progress. What's to fear?


I like these:

J-Spec Imports (https://www.j-spec.com.au/lineup/Nissan/Note/e-Power_HE12/id-D17)

Up to 1500 km per 50 litre tank.

Featured Nissan Notes at J-Spec Imports (https://www.j-spec.com.au/featured/Nissan/Note)

Nissan is (apparently) bringing in the X-Trail with this range-extender driveline:

Look out, Toyota RAV4 Hybrid! 2022 Nissan X-Trail e-Power to debut next year, with new Qashqai and other hybrids to follow - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/look-out-toyota-rav4-hybrid-2022-nissan-x-trail-e-power-to-debut-next-year-with-new-qashqai)

Why e-Power will be a game-charger for Nissan - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/why-e-power-will-be-a-game-charger-for-nissan-79541)

[Arapiles]

Even though the facts in the article may not be correct,the issue of where the power will come from and the huge upgrades that will be needed to the current electrical system is another issue many seem to have forgotten about,or ignore.

Sure some may come from solar,if people have a system that will do the job at home,but many will be using charging stations elsewhere.

As an example imagine the power that needs to be available for a medium sized shopping centre that has a couple of hundred charging points.

Not one service station that has been built in Aus in the last two years,and that is around 200,has any infrastructure for charging EV’s.This is due to the huge cost of infrastructure to provide the power that is needed.

As I have said before,sure they may suit some,but for many they won’t.




Charging at home uses about the same electricity as an electric oven - should we restrict their use too?





Public charging stations would be dealt with the way we currently deal with current heavy electricity users:



https://thedriven.io/2020/11/12/victorian-asked-to-ditch-out-dated-network-fees-making-ev-fast-chargers-unviable/


You'll note that there's an existing regulatory scheme for heavy users of electricity.

[scarry]

That's just normal grid upgrades. EVs are only a tiny part of that. The major cause is people running more and more electric devices in their homes, workplaces and schools e.g every high school student now needs a laptop..

Infrastructure and power up grades for charging EV’s will be on top of normal upgrades.

EV charging and the power used, once they supposedly become mainstream will be huge.

Someone else mentioned it’s like running an oven.Not really,when does a domestic oven run for 6 or more hours,and with fast charging,it’s huge current draws,for a shorter time,completely different from an oven.
This is power used on top of everything else that uses power.
The extra power and infrastructure isn’t going to just appear from somewhere.

As for schools,in SEQ,the biggest issue is the power used by the AC units.On top of the load of all the existing AC units,someone decided to install thousands more,and many schools are now waiting for power upgrades,which will take at least 18 months to complete.Many also need the installation of transformers,and supplying and installing these is a very slow process with Energex.So all these new,installed AC units are sitting on site doing nothing,and won’t be operational for quite a while.

The same sort of issues will happen with charging points,mains upgrades,new transformers,and on it goes.

[Arapiles]

As for schools,in SEQ,the biggest issue is the power used by the AC units.On top of the load of all the existing AC units,someone decided to install thousands more,and many schools are now waiting for power upgrades,which will take at least 18 months to complete.Many also need the installation of transformers,and supplying and installing these is a very slow process with Energex.So all these new,installed AC units are sitting on site doing nothing,and won’t be operational for quite a while.

.

Fascinating - do you have a link you can share?

According to the news items I could find the problem was not enough tradies and government tardiness. No mention of grid capacity issues.

[scarry]

Fascinating - do you have a link you can share?

According to the news items I could find the problem was not enough tradies and government tardiness. No mention of grid capacity issues.

Personnel experience,we are in the industry,seen the tender documents for a few of the schools,and yes lots of Govt incompetence as well.

Don’t want to go into it too much on a public forum.

There was something in the Courier Mail about it though,a while ago.

[Tombie]

Lots of second hand PHEVs and Hybrids around. They are a good interim choice until EVs take over.

I'm seeing lots of hybrid Camrys and Corollas, for example. The economics definitely stack up for them. That's why so many taxis are hybrid Camrys. Taxi operators are totally hard-nosed and wouldn't go hybrid until it saved them money.
What's not to like about your first 20ks or so being on electric? That covers about three quarters of most peoples' trips.

I posted a link above to a site with the details of all the EVs currently sold in Oz. Some have a range of well over the 3-400 Ks I mentioned above.

It just surprises me that some people are determined to reject EVs, even when they have to contort themselves and stand on their heads to do it. It's not political, it's just progress. What's to fear?

Not even an option....

We are talking a new car, with full warranty is desired.
That would mean paying the premium for an EV circa 15-20k.
For a woman who will not burn that in the next ten years of motoring and by then likely not be driving - I’m certainly not going to recommend she spent that excess amount.

And that range you speak of - on a cool day an EV might make it here on 1 charge. The only one I’ve seen do it is a $150k Tesla. It then had to charge for an entire day before it could return.

[Homestar]

That's just normal grid upgrades. EVs are only a tiny part of that. The major cause is people running more and more electric devices in their homes, workplaces and schools e.g every high school student now needs a laptop.
State governments and power companies are moving to upgrade their infrastructure to meet future demand. The East Coast power grid is being connected more closely all the time, so that power generated anywhere with a grid connection can be moved anywhere as needed. SA and Qld power NSW and Victoria quite often.
It's just progress.
The charging issue will be solved when our federal government finally copies other countries and requires charging points to be included in service stations, parking lots and workplaces. One day, this will be considered a normal cost of development, like supplying power or water is today.

No, it’s the other way around. Domestic demand has been dropping year on year for around 5 years now. There is no such thing as a “Normal Upgrade” to the grid - it’s only done where it’s needed and when needed and the actual amount of power required to run EV’s on a large scale is massive - I’m in the industry and this is looming as a large issue for it. Fobbing it off as normal or easy won’t make the enormity of the challenge go away or fund it either.

[Tombie]

Still, for about $30K you can import a current e+ Leaf that has about 350kms range.

$30k for a second hand vehicle. No warranty.

Which won’t cut it on the run up the M1 and back (320km) if it’s hot, cold, stop/go etc or any of the multitudes of factors that take the theoretical range and reduce it by a significant amount in real world use.

Or go buy a std Xtrail or ASX and get a big warranty and save $15k over an EV version.