EV general discussion

[V8Ian]

I doubt there are many climate change deniers, the relivant question is, are electric cars going to solve the problem. That's a question probably best taken to the Current Affairs section.

[RANDLOVER]

Not just cars we have to "electrify (almost) everything", starting with a test project in the Illawarra post code 2515.....Rewiring Australia founder Saul Griffith is a man on a mission to electrify the nation, one suburb at a time - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-27/saul-griffith-plan-to-rewire-australia/101762960)

However you can get in on the idea early, my house has 5kW of solar panels, solar hot water with electric booster, all electric appliances for nearly 25 years now, except for the pv which is 14 years old as installed August 2011.

[RANDLOVER]

Everyone that isn't a net zero luny. This is common knowledge, there isn't enough copper, nickle, lithium, cobalt etc ....

seeya
Shane L.

I'll try to briefly address your post.

The laws of supply and demand will drive the production
of minerals, and the market will allocate resources including minerals efficiently, it has always been thus, unfortunately resulting in "have and have nots". Whether this is fair or not and if everyone on earth should be allocated a quota of everything is an entirely different subject.

You see maintenance hungry turbines, I see local jobs.
There are greener forms of concrete but why should this just apply to turbine bases and not other civil construction? Would you feel better if you were paid a
subsidy because you can see turbines from your house, perhaps in the form of a cent for ever turbine revolution or non-revolution?

I have had solar panels for 14 years and no damage to report and no toxic leaks.

I'm touched by your concerns regarding ev battery, turbine and pv recycling. Whereas all products should be able to be returned to the manufacturer or relevant industry body for recycling.

The UK has phased out coal, so these things are possible. How would we know if they didn't try? UK to close last coal power station after 142 years (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y35qz73n8o)

EV chargers are being installed every day, in all sizes. I have two public ones within walking distance from me at a servo and a strip mall and the two major shopping centres on off the freeways either side of me have some too, but you're right more are needed across the country. Although most people charge at home.

I can think of a few things worse than electric boats like, chocolate teapot, motorbike ashtray, waterproof teabags.

[Eevo]

are electric cars going to solve the problem.

or do they replace one problem with another? or are they a feel good solution?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

or do they replace one problem with another? or are they a feel good solution?

This is the thing. "Are they the solution to the problem". I don't think anyone can realistically make that case. Are they environmentally better than driving ICE cars. I think that point has been proven many many times over and over that they are better.

The best answer is to walk, cycle, take public transport (not flying). Unfortunately at this juncture it is difficult to replace all our trips with these options although in many cases people do make choices that makes them more car dependent. If you have to have a car an EV is better.

Personally I ride my bike to many places. Local trips, everyday I've been in the office since 2010. We are a family of three with a combined mileage of less than 15000k a year (excluding trips in the defender). The majority of it is in the EV. Could I do better. Yes. Am I at least making some measurable attempt, yes.

Is that better than saying "Duck it - it's all too hard". I do tend to think so. I am conscious that this is the EV thread but perhaps more could be made of the limiting driving anything as possibly the most effective way to limit your climate impacts.

[PhilipA]

The UK has phased out coal, so these things are possible. How would we know if they didn't try?
ROTFL Ha Ha!
Biomass power station produced four times emissions of UK coal plant, says report | Greenhouse gas emissions | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/aug/09/biomass-power-station-produced-four-times-emissions-of-uk-coal-plant-says-report)

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoDB]

cant be trusted.
been more than 8 bus battery fires in SA alone

The 8 EV fires reported by that organisation are for light passenger vehicles. Trucks and buses are reported separately.

Probably more amazing is those 8 bus battery fires in SA never made the news or social media. Were they electric buses part of the SA public transport fleet?

[DoubleChevron]

I'll try to briefly address your post.

The laws of supply and demand will drive the production
of minerals, and the market will allocate resources including minerals efficiently, it has always been thus, unfortunately resulting in "have and have nots". Whether this is fair or not and if everyone on earth should be allocated a quota of everything is an entirely different subject.

You see maintenance hungry turbines, I see local jobs.
There are greener forms of concrete but why should this just apply to turbine bases and not other civil construction? Would you feel better if you were paid a
subsidy because you can see turbines from your house, perhaps in the form of a cent for ever turbine revolution or non-revolution?

I have had solar panels for 14 years and no damage to report and no toxic leaks.

I'm touched by your concerns regarding ev battery, turbine and pv recycling. Whereas all products should be able to be returned to the manufacturer or relevant industry body for recycling.

The UK has phased out coal, so these things are possible. How would we know if they didn't try? UK to close last coal power station after 142 years (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5y35qz73n8o)

EV chargers are being installed every day, in all sizes. I have two public ones within walking distance from me at a servo and a strip mall and the two major shopping centres on off the freeways either side of me have some too, but you're right more are needed across the country. Although most people charge at home.

I can think of a few things worse than electric boats like, chocolate teapot, motorbike ashtray, waterproof teabags.

Yes, so the answer to this is "the poor can go without" ... and waterproof teabags. So yes, you have made the exact luny net zero type response " Dont worry, ignore reality and just listen to us".

Don't worry, they will re-open there coal power stations. Germany hasn't after all been re-opening htere coal and nuclear power stations after going down the luny net zero path for a bit.

Yes, a whole "few" EV chargers in every suburb. Wow, let me hide my excitement. Do they actually work? I know if I wanted to find some expensive cars to break into I'd just head for the few chargers in town. Guaranteed to be some poor frazzled EV owners parked in dark parking lots where its unsafe for hours on end waiting to be bashed/robbed.... Oh, that is if they are actually working. Maybe this time, try talking about cows farting in response to facts. that will work.

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Public EV chargers are important for people who only have off road parking.

We are lucky enough to have a garage, and a charger. In the two years I've owned the car, I've only had to charge outside of the house once.

[NavyDiver]

This is a video about CATL developing a new battery technology. This could actually make EVs practical. CATL is the major supplier of EV batteries in the World.
How CATL Made Batteries 90% Cheaper (And What Happens Next) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf84NJSiAeU)
Regards PhilipA

My wacky SPAC profit in the USA has been very active again after four years of spending shareholders money [biggrin][biggrin]


It is a battery race plus! Mine was and a little bit still is Not Quantum of Solice- its a Q Scape :)

NOT Investment advice. [bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I note no one responded to my fuel security question. Very big plus for EV's IMHO.

[NavyDiver]

Just had a quick look at my battery play

this was interesting- NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE
Solid State Battery Technology | QuantumScape (https://www.quantumscape.com/technology/)


QSE-5

The QSE-5 is QuantumScape's first planned commercial product. It's designed to offer an unmatched combination of energy density, fast-charging, high power, and a safety profile superior to conventional lithium-ion batteries. We're working together with partners in the automotive industry to bring this revolutionary technology platform into real-world electric vehicles as soon as possible.



https://www.quantumscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/QSE-5-B-Sample-Hero-ar16x9-v4.png







QSE-5

The QSE-5 is QuantumScape's first planned commercial product. It's designed to offer an unmatched combination of energy density, fast-charging, high power, and a safety profile superior to conventional lithium-ion batteries. We're working together with partners in the automotive industry to bring this revolutionary technology platform into real-world electric vehicles as soon as possible.



https://www.quantumscape.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/QSE-5-B-Sample-Hero-ar16x9-v4.png

[Eevo]

I note no one responded to my fuel security question. Very big plus for EV's IMHO.

energy security (which is different to fuel security) is important.
but given our solar panels and batteries come from china, its not secure.

[Eevo]

Are they environmentally better than driving ICE cars. I think that point has been proven many many times over and over that they are better.

The best answer is to walk, cycle, take public transport (not flying).


driving yes. building and recycling no.

if i take going to work and going food shopping.
walk - too far, too slow, subject to weather.
cycle - too far, too slow, subject to weather, subject to fitness.
public transport - too slow, doesnt go where i want in 1 bus. flying is quick.

[DoubleChevron]

I note no one responded to my fuel security question. Very big plus for EV's IMHO.

Yes, it makes them a huge negative. the first thing we always, always loose in any sort of natural disaster ... or event of any sort is the power. fuel we can still transport. If you were worried about this we would be pushing CNG vehicles and not giving the stuff away faster than it can be extracted from the ground.

[Eevo]

The 8 EV fires reported by that organisation are for light passenger vehicles. Trucks and buses are reported separately.

Probably more amazing is those 8 bus battery fires in SA never made the news or social media. Were they electric buses part of the SA public transport fleet?
whats classified as a fire for ICE might suprise you.
the buses are public transport but owned by private companies (i think) contracted to do public transport.

[RANDLOVER]

ROTFL Ha Ha!
Biomass power station produced four times emissions of UK coal plant, says report | Greenhouse gas emissions | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/aug/09/biomass-power-station-produced-four-times-emissions-of-uk-coal-plant-says-report)

Regards PhilipA
Biomass wood pellets are renewable as the CO2 emitted during burning for fuel is taken up by trees, which can then be converted into wood pellets, so a "virtuous cycle". Like I said we have to try in order to find these things out.

[RANDLOVER]

I note no one responded to my fuel security question. Very big plus for EV's IMHO.

Good for fuel security and local jobs, win,win.

[RANDLOVER]

Yes, so the answer to this is "the poor can go without" ... and waterproof teabags. So yes, you have made the exact luny net zero type response " Dont worry, ignore reality and just listen to us".

Don't worry, they will re-open there coal power stations. Germany hasn't after all been re-opening htere coal and nuclear power stations after going down the luny net zero path for a bit.

Yes, a whole "few" EV chargers in every suburb. Wow, let me hide my excitement. Do they actually work? I know if I wanted to find some expensive cars to break into I'd just head for the few chargers in town. Guaranteed to be some poor frazzled EV owners parked in dark parking lots where its unsafe for hours on end waiting to be bashed/robbed.... Oh, that is if they are actually working. Maybe this time, try talking about cows farting in response to facts. that will work.

seeya
Shane L.

For the sake of discussion I'm prepared to argue misconceptions, exaggerations even half truths but not words being put in my mouth, so here ends my engagement with you, besides you remind me of the "master debater" in a recent "Southpark" episode.

[RANDLOVER]

whats classified as a fire for ICE might suprise you.
the buses are public transport but owned by private companies (i think) contracted to do public transport.

I just went on an electric bus, rubber tyred tram really and no more warnings signage than the usual emergency exits and definitely no ejector seats for escaping the on board battery fire if it happens. I liked it as no engine noise, still has road noise, can't say I noticed wind noise but I don't think it is double glazed....Metro fleet | Brisbane City Council (https://metro.brisbane.qld.gov.au/metro-fleet)

[DoubleChevron]

For the sake of discussion I'm prepared to argue misconceptions, exaggerations even half truths but not words being put in my mouth, so here ends my engagement with you, besides you remind me of the "master debater" in a recent "Southpark" episode.

So lets again completely change the subject as soon as there is factual disagreement. I was specifically asked what I thought about energy security, and I answered with reasons why electricity cannot be relied on when we need it the most.

Now, australia has massive natural resources... so I mentioned a resource that could allow energy security. So you did the "normal" response of someone that expects stupidity to be simply agreed... That is, attack the person, rather than debate the issue. This is what the EV and net zero lunys do. As soon as facts are mentioned that can't really be argued with, they start personally attacking anyone that would dare disagree with them... Sorry, that does not work with me.

These types also hide behind aliases. Go google my name, you will find me. I'm a real person, not someone hiding behind some persona where I feel safe.

seeya
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

I just went on an electric bus, rubber tyred tram really and no more warnings signage than the usual emergency exits and definitely no ejector seats for escaping the on board battery fire if it happens. I liked it as no engine noise, still has road noise, can't say I noticed wind noise but I don't think it is double glazed....Metro fleet | Brisbane City Council (https://metro.brisbane.qld.gov.au/metro-fleet)

As soon as one burns or breaks down, they will be removed from service. Of course it works well if it can be charged whilst in use. There is nothing better than electric motors for generating power, why do you think mains powered metro trains and trams are so successful all over the world.

So long as those metro busses don't burn, given the fact they should be constantly on the charge while in use they shouldn't go flat (or be parked for hours waiting on charging). Of course there is no "other than normal" type emergency exits. If that battery torches off, everyone will die, they won't have the opportunity to make it out alive, so why bother with exits.

Fortunately no one was hurt in this Australian bus fire. The Facebook Department of Research has confirmed it was an electric bus and the batteries spontaneously ignited, despite it being combustion powered. (https://www.threads.com/@kiwi_ev_adventures/post/DDYwhRxvFKx)

🔥🔥🔥 Electric bus fire 🔥🔥🔥 | EV FireSafe posted on the topic | LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/ev-firesafe_lithiumionbattery-ebusfire-electricbusbatteryfire-activity-7183300703082233856-4W6s)

the electric busses are burning all over the world. even in autralia. the mainstream media doesn't report on it that I can find though.

electric busses are all over the internet if you look, across many countries being removed from service because the are so unreliable (and keep burning ... wow what impressive fires they make).

[NavyDiver]

I just went on an electric bus, rubber tyred tram really and no more warnings signage than the usual emergency exits and definitely no ejector seats for escaping the on board battery fire if it happens. I liked it as no engine noise, still has road noise, can't say I noticed wind noise but I don't think it is double glazed....Metro fleet | Brisbane City Council (https://metro.brisbane.qld.gov.au/metro-fleet)

Got on an ev bus in Maroochydore last year. Honestly not difference to the others except at sunrise when I was running. One type could be heard at 100m and the other at about 500m.

Ejection seats could be cool fun if your backs very very good and you like thrilling rides[biggrin][biggrin]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Funny I remember when Brisbane Council had an issue with their CNG busses exploding. One of them went off while being filled. I know someone who worked there, and they said the person filling it had walked off to do other things and was a very very lucky boy. Apparently exploded well below the known safe level.

Brisbane City Council swaps '''exploding''' gas-powered buses for diesel following gas cylinder explosions - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-03/brisbane-city-council-swaps-exploding-gas-buses-for-diesel/12840670)

[DoubleChevron]

Got on an ev bus in Maroochydore last year. Honestly not difference to the others except at sunrise when I was running. One type could be heard at 100m and the other at about 500m.

Ejection seats could be cool fun if your backs very very good and you like thrilling rides[biggrin][biggrin]

They would be way better, no gearchanges, not pollution, 100% power/torque from zero revs. electric motors are awesome for this sort of thing.

[austastar]

Hi,
Trolly busses did that back in the 60s.
That is until the little darlings in the back seat cracked open the rear window and pulled one of the feed arms off the overhead cable with the rope .
How to annoy your bus driver in one easy lesson. (So I'm told at least)
Cheers

[RANDLOVER]

Funny I remember when Brisbane Council had an issue with their CNG busses exploding. One of them went off while being filled. I know someone who worked there, and they said the person filling it had walked off to do other things and was a very very lucky boy......

I used to think gas vehicles and power plants would be a good stop gap on the way to hydrogen, nut now I think in practice there is too much leakage.

I thought servos could be converted to gas, with all the tanks, pipes, etc ready for hydrogen. Unfortunately, hydrogen, even green hydrogen is very inefficient for vehicles...Transcript: The Big Switch with Saul Griffith
Recorded live on 24/02/2022
Please note this transcript is automated
hydrogen at scale is green hydrogen and green hydrogen starts with electricity anyway. So if we're
going to drive an electric car, for example, we start with one unit of electricity gets stored in the
battery you lose a couple of cent goes into the motor, it loses about five percent. And so, you know,
85 90 per cent of that one unit of electricity drives the car. If you go take that electricity and you
make hydrogen, you lose 25 per cent or more. Most likely more generating the hydrogen through
electrolysis. Then you lose another 10 to 15 per cent when you compress the hydrogen down so that
it has enough energy density to be stored in the car. Then you either have to burn it in the car
engine or run it through a fuel cell, which is going to lose another 50 per cent of the energy. All told,
that means, you know, you're going to get 30 or 40 per cent of that original electricity out, not 90
per cent as you do with the electric car that before you even consider the cost of the tank, the fuel
cell, the compressors, the electrolysis means that the cost of driving that vehicle will be two to three
times the cost of driving an electric vehicle. So you sort of fail on a technical argument, you fail on an
economic argument. Now you could go through the other uses. What about for heat? What about
for various things? And most of them end up with a like? It's a thermodynamic story that looks that
bad or worse, which then you might say, Well, what might we use it for? Absolutely. We need it for
agriculture for in the form of ammonia. That's about one per cent of the world's energy today.
Maybe we need it for steel. That's another half of one per cent of the world's energy today. So you
start to see that it's looking like a two to five per cent component of the future, not a 50 per cent
component. And that has an enormous impact on how you would allocate precious resources in
addressing climate risks....https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/The-Big-Switch-Transcript.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiZkZ-Ym5aPAxWblq8BHajyECM4FBAWegQIMxAB&usg=AOvVaw1s-6cUIfYqEYLJ0YXpRB3O

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I used to think gas vehicles and power plants would be a good stop gap on the way to hydrogen, nut now I think in practice there is too much leakage.

I thought servos could be converted to gas, with all the tanks, pipes, etc ready for hydrogen. Unfortunately, hydrogen, even green hydrogen is very inefficient for vehicles...Transcript: The Big Switch with Saul Griffith
Recorded live on 24/02/2022
Please note this transcript is automated
hydrogen at scale is green hydrogen and green hydrogen starts with electricity anyway. So if we're
going to drive an electric car, for example, we start with one unit of electricity gets stored in the
battery you lose a couple of cent goes into the motor, it loses about five percent. And so, you know,
85 90 per cent of that one unit of electricity drives the car. If you go take that electricity and you
make hydrogen, you lose 25 per cent or more. Most likely more generating the hydrogen through
electrolysis. Then you lose another 10 to 15 per cent when you compress the hydrogen down so that
it has enough energy density to be stored in the car. Then you either have to burn it in the car
engine or run it through a fuel cell, which is going to lose another 50 per cent of the energy. All told,
that means, you know, you're going to get 30 or 40 per cent of that original electricity out, not 90
per cent as you do with the electric car that before you even consider the cost of the tank, the fuel
cell, the compressors, the electrolysis means that the cost of driving that vehicle will be two to three
times the cost of driving an electric vehicle. So you sort of fail on a technical argument, you fail on an
economic argument. Now you could go through the other uses. What about for heat? What about
for various things? And most of them end up with a like? It's a thermodynamic story that looks that
bad or worse, which then you might say, Well, what might we use it for? Absolutely. We need it for
agriculture for in the form of ammonia. That's about one per cent of the world's energy today.
Maybe we need it for steel. That's another half of one per cent of the world's energy today. So you
start to see that it's looking like a two to five per cent component of the future, not a 50 per cent
component. And that has an enormous impact on how you would allocate precious resources in
addressing climate risks....https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/The-Big-Switch-Transcript.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiZkZ-Ym5aPAxWblq8BHajyECM4FBAWegQIMxAB&usg=AOvVaw1s-6cUIfYqEYLJ0YXpRB3O
Sal Griffith is great. "Mr Electrify Everything"

There are all those issues with Hydrogen. Rather than using electricity to create hydrogen, which must then be shipped, and pumped into the car, and converted back to electricity, and then used.. it's much more efficient just to put it in the car and use it.

The other issue with hydrogen is it's not liquid at room temperature, so the tanks really need to be big and strong as the pressures are immense. If you have a look at a Toyota Murai they are a large car, but tiny inside because they have to have three large hydrogen tanks, plus a fuel cell, plus battery, plus electric motor and gubbins... Really poor packaging.

Toyota played with liquifying hydrogen and chilling it and using it straight in an ICE - which again had big packaging issues. But the other problem was the fuel was continually boiling off. I think they said the whole tank would empty to dry in two weeks if not used. Really not grateful for a passenger car. Might be ok for things like trucking. I don't believe there is any way around that one.

For the people in this thread - that is one of the cool things about EV's. For their size they have a LOT of space inside. The packaging is really great.

[RANDLOVER]

Saul is a great guy, and actually owned two hydrogen cars which he said was scary when filling them. Also he knows the hydrogen industry intimately, as he patented the tanks hydrogen cars use, so stands to lose out on a lot of money if they don't take off.

Talking about scary cars, as someone who has been called to a lot of suspected fires, I'd rather get a call that an EV "smells funny" than a gas or hydrogen car!

[DoubleChevron]

Saul is a great guy, and actually owned two hydrogen cars which he said was scary when filling them. Also he knows the hydrogen industry intimately, as he patented the tanks hydrogen cars use, so stands to lose out on a lot of money if they don't take off.

Talking about scary cars, as someone who has been called to a lot of suspected fires, I'd rather get a call that an EV "smells funny" than a gas or hydrogen car!

The downfall of hydrogen isn't the cars, its the power required to create it and the enormous difficulty of transport and storage. If they manage to store it as a powder that could be very interesting

Australia's Revolutionary Hydrogen Powder Is Easier and Cheaper to Use for Clean Energy (https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/australias-revolutionary-hydrogen-powder-is-easier-and-cheaper-to-use-for-clean-energy/)

but you still need to create the hydrogen in the first place (energy intensive).

There is always losses, the EV nutters like to mention how effecient EV's are (and they are correct, electric motors are awesome). Lets ignore the losses involved in generating the power, power transmission to the local area... I've read one article where the DC -> DC charger was a 30% loss.

The real difference that I see, is EVs are "locally clean", there pollution is elsewhere (unless they burn of course). I only need to start my car and back it out the shed to know exactly where the pollution is [bigsmile1] So the air in heavy traffic areas would have to be a lot better where EV's are driven.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This article is a bit of a rehash, but lots of links to the research.

I maintain my position that focussing on EV battery lifespans is misguided. EV batteries are not your mobile phone batteries. Technology has moved on from the Nissan Leaf. Yes there will be occasional failures, but the most likely outcome is the battery will last the life of the car. It should be noted that the classes of cars where there is an electric offering are not series landrovers and are not expected to last for an operator lifetime.



Study found that we may have been wrong about EV batteries and they'll actually last 40 percent longer

https://supercarblondie.com/stanford-study-shows-ev-batteries-may-last-longer-than-expected/?fbclid=IwY2xjawMTFOtleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETEzZFhD S3l1eGR5WTFMVnpJAR4F0ZMBdzIUojr01AWw7hftSe63kqVvV1 xDfc36Wfgme_nWRxpEs0L29iALaw_aem_bQssFZRO8Hkz5rtxe 9Uk8A

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Further.. if you are not buying an EV because of concerns about battery longevity.. I really think this is nuts. We can all know of several legacy manufacturers where they have sold a car that had a fundamental design issue that results in people having to spend a motza on them. And there seems to be zero concern about that.

Has anyone got a spare puma motor? Or a TD2.7 v6 for my disco? And so many more...

I would hate to add it up, but I reckon I spend enough on maintenance on my defender to pay for a complete battery swap every less than ten years. Insane. If I didn't need it for it's purpose would be gone quicker than...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I see this thread this morning. I wish the OP all the best!

13 year old D4 with 160k. Engine bang. LR want 40k. Lucky the aftermarket can come to the party. A few posts down "Unfortunately it's a known issue".

For the life of me I don't see why anyone isn't outraged about this instead of being fixated on what might happen to an EV.

D4 3.0 SDV6 catastrophic failure (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/280851-d4-3-0-sdv6-catastrophic-failure.html)

EDIT: I see the car was only 8 at the time and it's a thread full of the same issue. Go on.. send the fire hose of outrage at LR!

[NavyDiver]

The downfall of hydrogen isn't the cars, its the power required to create it and the enormous difficulty of transport and storage. If they manage to store it as a powder that could be very interesting

Australia's Revolutionary Hydrogen Powder Is Easier and Cheaper to Use for Clean Energy (https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/australias-revolutionary-hydrogen-powder-is-easier-and-cheaper-to-use-for-clean-energy/)

but you still need to create the hydrogen in the first place (energy intensive).



Unless you're an amazing Australian Hydrogen Pyrolysis company with a demonstration plant near Woodman's point, Battery grade graphite and more[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

NOT waiting for a Hydrogen car myself - I had deluded myself year ago. I think I had a greenwashing thread somewhere. Twiggy and others blew billions on a known energy intensive hydrogen electrolysis which is dead now.

Happily methane pyrolysis technologies for hydrogen/graphite production is NOT energy intensive. that Doesn't make it great for cars still!

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

[DoubleChevron]

This article is a bit of a rehash, but lots of links to the research.

I maintain my position that focussing on EV battery lifespans is misguided. EV batteries are not your mobile phone batteries. Technology has moved on from the Nissan Leaf. Yes there will be occasional failures, but the most likely outcome is the battery will last the life of the car. It should be noted that the classes of cars where there is an electric offering are not series landrovers and are not expected to last for an operator lifetime.




https://supercarblondie.com/stanford-study-shows-ev-batteries-may-last-longer-than-expected/?fbclid=IwY2xjawMTFOtleHRuA2FlbQIxMABicmlkETEzZFhD S3l1eGR5WTFMVnpJAR4F0ZMBdzIUojr01AWw7hftSe63kqVvV1 xDfc36Wfgme_nWRxpEs0L29iALaw_aem_bQssFZRO8Hkz5rtxe 9Uk8A

We will see. They are talking about some new sodium battery. Of which there is no details included. Just a wishy, washy "this is fanstastic... we are amazing" type article with absolutely no details.

But hey, if it makes you think your current throw-away will last some miraculous number of years, by all means, feel free to believe it. Reality will always over-ride blind belief ... always ... without fail sadly.

seeya
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

I see this thread this morning. I wish the OP all the best!

13 year old D4 with 160k. Engine bang. LR want 40k. Lucky the aftermarket can come to the party. A few posts down "Unfortunately it's a known issue".

For the life of me I don't see why anyone isn't outraged about this instead of being fixated on what might happen to an EV.

D4 3.0 SDV6 catastrophic failure (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/280851-d4-3-0-sdv6-catastrophic-failure.html)

EDIT: I see the car was only 8 at the time and it's a thread full of the same issue. Go on.. send the fire hose of outrage at LR!

I fail to see what one type of poorly designed ICE engien has to do with an entirely new type of vehicle with fundamental (currently impossible to fix) longetivity issues have in common.

Everyone complain about how crappy the old hi-undi excel was .... cheap pieces of crap. Yet I still see the damn things on the roads. They were a sound obsolete type of technology and have lasted well.

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I fail to see what one type of poorly designed ICE engien has to do with an entirely new type of vehicle with fundamental (currently impossible to fix) longetivity issues have in common.

Everyone complain about how crappy the old hi-undi excel was .... cheap pieces of crap. Yet I still see the damn things on the roads. They were a sound obsolete type of technology and have lasted well.

seeya
Shane L.
Well it's just that you're saying "I think EV's won't last long.. they will be throwaways"

Meanwhile LR are pumping out cars that are also throwaways.. yet that's ok. I find that quite confusing.

FYI The first teslas that arrived in Australia seem to be lasting quite well. Better than the LR's of the same time. I think the ones being sold now will last better as they have made progress with all sorts of stuff.

[austastar]

Hi,
My 1950s Hillman Minx came with an owner's manual showing the jacking points and measured distances to straighten the body after a bingle.
It was still going strong when we sold it in 1977.
Cheers

[DoubleChevron]

Well it's just that you're saying "I think EV's won't last long.. they will be throwaways"

Meanwhile LR are pumping out cars that are also throwaways.. yet that's ok. I find that quite confusing.

FYI The first teslas that arrived in Australia seem to be lasting quite well. Better than the LR's of the same time. I think the ones being sold now will last better as they have made progress with all sorts of stuff.

You just being ridiculous, just buy a different car if you want reliablity. How do you get reliability over the long term buying *any* EV.... the answer is you don't. The youngest car in this house hold is 14 years old... The oldest 75 years old. Guess how much drama I have worrying about $20,000+ battery replacements every 8'ish years (yes, I know ... THEY WILL LAST 25 YEARS ... sure .... :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash: ) .... No, hang on .... I've was just told in today in this thread they will even last 40% longer than that [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] This is just so hilarious.

[PhilipA]

Everyone complain about how crappy the old hi-undi excel was .... cheap pieces of crap
The mechanics on these were all Mitsubishi, even though the Koreans hate the Japanese and they hid all mention of Japanese components. Hyundai made a wagon called a "Galloper" which was an old solid axle Pajero but no Korean I talked to knew it was Pajero.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

You just being ridiculous, just buy a different car if you want reliablity. How do you get reliability over the long term buying *any* EV.... the answer is you don't. The youngest car in this house hold is 14 years old... The oldest 75 years old. Guess how much drama I have worrying about $20,000+ battery replacements every 8'ish years (yes, I know ... THEY WILL LAST 25 YEARS ... sure .... :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash: ) .... No, hang on .... I've was just told in today in this thread they will even last 40% longer than that [bigrolf][bigrolf] This is just so hilarious.

My two over ten year old 10kWh Flow batteries cost me about 10k each. 6kWh Solar system and just under 20kWh of battery is going on my shed next week or so for under $5000 AUD honest!

That does my head in! [B]NB There is a few K in the gov cash for battery and solar in that price!

The prices are crashing and capacity is increasing [thumbsupbig]

Not suggesting EVs are perfect or refitting a battery is simple. Refitting a submarine battery was complex :) for a cool EV try Italy's U212 NFS program.

While I wait for my boat towing 4wd long range Fast Charging ev beast I was looking at DEEPAL E07: All-New, All-Electric MULTITRUCK | DEEPAL Australia (https://www.deepal.com.au/vehicles/deepal/e07/)

600km plus claimed may be 500ish.
800V electrical architecture

EV drive time to drop of a worker. I may look for a whale[biggrin]

[DoubleChevron]

My two over ten year old 10kWh Flow batteries cost me about 10k each. 6kWh Solar system and just under 20kWh of battery is going on my shed next week or so for under $5000 AUD honest!

That does my head in! NB There is a few K in the gov cash for battery and solar in that price!

The prices are crashing and capacity is increasing [thumbsupbig]

Not suggesting EVs are perfect or refitting a battery is simple. Refitting a submarine battery was complex :) for a cool EV try Italy's U212 NFS program.

While I wait for my boat towing 4wd long range Fast Charging ev beast I was looking at DEEPAL E07: All-New, All-Electric MULTITRUCK | DEEPAL Australia (https://www.deepal.com.au/vehicles/deepal/e07/)

600km plus claimed may be 500ish.
800V electrical architecture

EV drive time to drop of a worker. I may look for a whale[biggrin]

supply and demand ... if you think batteries for EV's are going to get cheaper, you are living in a dream world :) The harder the main ingrediants for batteries get to source, and the more we must have EV's mandated over the world, the more expensive they will become.

Unless somehting like the sodium battery becomes a "thing" that doesn't require all the rare/expensive elements :)

supply and demand will always trump everything else. If lots of people want something that there isn't enough of, it will become more expensive.

[Eevo]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/538196152_1182075913948038_7406563303671786011_n.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=AeT_kUCDmo0Q7kNvwH7EMBQ&_nc_oc=AdmQowC4p-TDGC8nFji9lCX0pFnb3jhDAw-Vw4QoQs3I9olnyJ1NUQpciYnvCSl-JuY&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&_nc_gid=MVMz95IzcyLqkG1DlZ0AJg&oh=00_AfUbmTNhFj7NSHlzVE2-Qi9ACLoAmcafAhi0sVTOD-Kx5w&oe=68ADA491

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You just being ridiculous, just buy a different car if you want reliablity. How do you get reliability over the long term buying *any* EV.... the answer is you don't. The youngest car in this house hold is 14 years old... The oldest 75 years old. Guess how much drama I have worrying about $20,000+ battery replacements every 8'ish years (yes, I know ... THEY WILL LAST 25 YEARS ... sure .... :wallbash::wallbash::wallbash: ) .... No, hang on .... I've was just told in today in this thread they will even last 40% longer than that [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] This is just so hilarious.
I have no expectation that my ev will last 25 years. If I'd bought a ICE equivalent (you pick) I would have no expectation that it would last 25 years either. You're just chasing something that no longer exists. If I buy any new LR now.. will it even make 15 years? I wouldn't be hopeful. But again.. it will probably be just like ICE. Some EV's will be finished at 10 years. Some will probably be surviving at 20. Which one will be which? Just a guess.

In the last 25 years I've bought 5 ICE vehicles.

2002 Mini. Written off in 2009 due to engine failure.
2003 Ford fiesta. Don't know when it died but it's dead.
2005 Defender Still going strong!
2007 Audi A3 Died 2023.
2016 Vw Golf. unknown. ... surely it's alive! I want to believe.

So 2/5 are even still alive. If we take the Defender out as it's an outlier, why should I reasonably expect my EV to last for 25 years? Like Why? The longest lived of the normal cars was the Audi at 16 years.

Honestly.. I really don't know how you're coming to these crazy conclusions about EV longevity. You can't give me any evidence about your opinion on battery durability. Just crazy wild punts. But neither can I. Should we wait until the current tech is 25 years old before we say "hell that's durable enough". By which time the world will have moved on many times over.

The first proper EV's arrived in Aus in 2014 and are at the moment doing fine. Thanks for asking. And as I've said over and over - we have every expectation that ones sold now will be at least that durable. That seems to me that they are looking to be on target to be at least as durable as the ICE cars I seem to pick. I remain confident that the cause of death of my EV is unlikely to be it's battery.

Tell me one car you could buy now that you are confident will last 25+ years


Tell me what equivalent car I should have bought instead which will last 25+ years and put us all out of your misery!

PS Why are you even in this thread if you think that EV's are that useless?

[Eevo]

Tell me one car you could buy now that you are confident will last 25+ years



land cruiser
porsche

[DoubleChevron]

land cruiser
porsche

I'd be suprised if a chinese mg and byd ICE vehicles aren't still on the roads. like I said, I still see the cheap ****boxes from 30years ago on the roads.

This really is the dumbest suggestion that ice vehicles won't last either ..... They will last for as long as someone is willing to maintain and upkeep them. the old poogoe here has now passed down to the youngest daughter. It still sips about 7L/100km and never fails to start and drive as required. i'm guessing it will be well past 300,000kms at 25 years and still happily motoring along if we need it.

I'm hoping I get to come back to this thread in 25years time and admit I was wrong ..... and the lithium batteries have lasted 25 years when fitted to electric cars (even though they haven't anywhere else ... ever .... and I've owned endless lithium battery devices just like everyone else .... 5 -> 8 years and there done).

[PhilipA]

Hmm. To me there is a big difference to writing off an ICE car due to engine failure and writing off an EV due to a minor accident which damages the battery or battery failure.

There of course is the issue of what car you choose to buy. A RRS 3l is a very risky proposition and so is a Mini as they have a terrible reputation for engine failure.

But a well-maintained Honda, Toyota or Nissan has a reputation of lasting hundreds of thousands of Kilometers.

It remains to be seen which Chinese ICE car brands will survive and the long term reliability of them.

It is the potential cost of battery replacement that will see a 10 year old EV have no resale value as it will almost certainly be more than the car is worth. In the USA and UK early Nissan Leafs have almost no value even though there is now an after market for batteries as they are still very expensive.
Regards PhilipA

[oka374]

Double chevron I hate to burst your battery life thoughts as I and quite a few others that installed lithium iron batteries in our motorhomes when they first became available and are now approaching fifteen years service with no sign of performance losses.
In some cases capacity tests are better than new as we suspect the manufacturer was conservative in their ratings.
They came with no BMS, cooling (or heating) systems and most installs are monitored at a cell level by the user and yet they are still happily performing as designed and that basic design is still available and is often used in electrification of ICE vehicles.

[NavyDiver]

supply and demand ... if you think batteries for EV's are going to get cheaper, you are living in a dream world :) The harder the main ingrediants for batteries get to source, and the more we must have EV's mandated over the world, the more expensive they will become.

Unless somehting like the sodium battery becomes a "thing" that doesn't require all the rare/expensive elements :)

supply and demand will always trump everything else. If lots of people want something that there isn't enough of, it will become more expensive.

I may differ on that point :) My questions 'cost of a car in inflation adjusted $USD from 1925 to 2025"

cost of a car in inflation adjusted $USD from 1925 to 2025 (https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/nXBWXuoshd69nscj6h8bK)

Link is to the data. My screen shot went binary
A car that cost $15,000 in 1935 would cost about $128,000 in 2025 if adjusted purely for car-specific inflation [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Its a AVG car price not a Range Rover price[thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

land cruiser
porsche

Want to add the Maintenace cost estimate for that? I loved my Disco(s). I did not love the cost of keeping them on the road and a little off-road fun! I BET I could replace a battery in the EV for a LOT less than I spent over 500,000 km or so [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Not that I want to hold my non boat towing non long range EV for a lot longer[biggrin] Now I am going to LA LA LA space to forget I ever acknowledged that for my beautiful Disco[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

I am still at $150 service and four tires for the current 60,000 ev. Its take off may be the tire chewing item. My lead foot -wrist was more for motorcycle Tyres.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hmm. To me there is a big difference to writing off an ICE car due to engine failure and writing off an EV due to a minor accident which damages the battery or battery failure.

There of course is the issue of what car you choose to buy. A RRS 3l is a very risky proposition and so is a Mini as they have a terrible reputation for engine failure.

But a well-maintained Honda, Toyota or Nissan has a reputation of lasting hundreds of thousands of Kilometers.

It remains to be seen which Chinese ICE car brands will survive and the long term reliability of them.

It is the potential cost of battery replacement that will see a 10 year old EV have no resale value as it will almost certainly be more than the car is worth. In the USA and UK early Nissan Leafs have almost no value even though there is now an after market for batteries as they are still very expensive.
Regards PhilipA

That's really not fair. The nissan leaf was the first mass market EV. The battery doesn't have active cooling only passive. It's because of the nissan leaf that manufacturers all now include active cooling. Their batteries were comically short lived. This says as more about the Japanese tendency to not want to admit when they had made a mistake as it does about battery life in EV's.

The only full EV on sale in Australia currently with passive battery cooling is the Nissan leaf. When the current model goes there will be none. For good reason.

The factors that govern how long a car survives are its resale value and repair/parts costs.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So some fun facts to those who think a run of the mill Nissan/Honda sedan hatch has a good chance of lasting 25 years. It's a general rule that about 1/5 cars are sold every year. With that in mind..

So Honda in Australia sold 150 cars shy of 20,000 cars in Australia in the year 2000. I just had a look on Carsales. There are count it.. 13 "normal" hondas and 8 of their sports cars for sale across the whole of Australia right now.

Nissan sold 33k cars in the year 2000. At the moment on carsales... there are

2x 200sx for sale.
1 300zx
4 Elgrand (never sold here)
2 Pulsars
7 Silvia (not sold here new)
5 Skyline (GTR!)
And 54 Nissan Patrols.

So of the "Normal" cars, we've got a total of 2 pulsars for sale. No maximas, no normal sklyines, no Terrano, no x-trails. Hell.. not even a Navara.

If I had to guess.. I'd be guessing that despite making the bulk of the sales, the number of "normal" nissans still on the roads would be in the hundreds not thousands. Yes there is a chance a normal car might live 25 years, but it's chances are very very small.

Modern cars have far more complex and expensive components. I think the survival rate of current model cars over long periods will be even lower. "what you don't want to pay 20k for your replacement DSG!!??"

[Eevo]

Want to add the Maintenace cost estimate for that? I loved my Disco(s). I did not love the cost of keeping them on the road and a little off-road fun! I BET I could replace a battery in the EV for a LOT less than I spent over 500,000 km or so [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Not that I want to hold my non boat towing non long range EV for a lot longer[biggrin] Now I am going to LA LA LA space to forget I ever acknowledged that for my beautiful Disco[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

I am still at $150 service and four tires for the current 60,000 ev. Its take off may be the tire chewing item. My lead foot -wrist was more for motorcycle Tyres.
but they are maintainable.

what service does an EV need?

[Eevo]

Access Denied (https://service.tesla.com/docs/Public/diy/model3/en_us/)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

but they are maintainable.

what service does an EV need?
I posted a while back.. not that anyone listens to any facts around here.

Tesla service schedule.

Cabin filter every two years.
Hepa filter every three years.
Brake fluid check at four years.

Rotate tyres every 10k

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Did a hour or so driving in Brisbane traffic this morning. Played Spotto for cars older than 25 years. I got a old mazda ute, a eb Falcon and a vx or VT commodore (might not have been 25 but close.. I'm not that good!) and a Nissan pintara. How many other cars did I see? 10k ? Sooo many....

Keep in mind that around that time ford and holden were selling 1/4 of a million cars a year!

[vnx205]

I may differ on that point :) My questions 'cost of a car in inflation adjusted $USD from 1925 to 2025"

cost of a car in inflation adjusted $USD from 1925 to 2025 (https://copilot.microsoft.com/shares/nXBWXuoshd69nscj6h8bK)

Link is to the data. My screen shot went binary
A car that cost $15,000 in 1935 would cost about $128,000 in 2025 if adjusted purely for car-specific inflation [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Its a AVG car price not a Range Rover price[thumbsupbig]

On that table, 1970 $3500 converts to $27,000.

In 1969 a Toyota Crown could be put on the road for $3000. I doubt you could buy a car in 2025 as good as the 1969 Crown for $27,000.

Surely the difference isn't explained just by improvements in more modern cars.

[RANDLOVER]

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/25-years-of-drive-our-top-10-cars-of-1998/

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/the-cars-we-were-buying-in-1998-drive-flashback/

Here's some cars for sale 25 years ago, how many can be seen on the road lately?

[TonyC]

I posted a while back.. not that anyone listens to any facts around here.

Tesla service schedule.

Cabin filter every two years.
Hepa filter every three years.
Brake fluid check at four years.

Rotate tyres every 10k

Do they have a reduction gearbox?
Does it have oil that needs changing?

A Google search shows a few high mileage Tesla's
One at 1.24 million miles, miles not kilometres, it's had 4 batteries and 14 motors.
UPDATE: This 1.24 Million-Mile Tesla Model S Is On Its 14th Motor, Fourth Battery Pack (https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/)

One at 430,000 miles, again miles not Km, never been serviced, mostly supercharged to 100%, which is the worst thing you can do to the battery, on top of that the bloke bought it when Tesla offered free lifetime charging, at this stage his so far ahead resale doesn't matter.
Tesla Model S Cruises Past 430,000 Miles On Original Battery | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2024/06/this-tesla-model-s-has-been-driven-over-430000-miles-on-its-original-battery/)

Tony

[PhilipA]

Sounds like the woodman's axe. Should last forever if everything remains free.
I seem to recall this example as being a limo travelling between LA and Las Vegas every day and the mileage was racked up within the battery warranty. So USD80-100G on batteries otherwise.
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/25-years-of-drive-our-top-10-cars-of-1998/

https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/the-cars-we-were-buying-in-1998-drive-flashback/

Here's some cars for sale 25 years ago, how many can be seen on the road lately?
I do like this game.

There were 190,000 excels sold in Australia. Total for sale in Australia now, all years. FIVE. All with relatively low K's.

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/hyundai/excel/)

How many are still on the road out of that 190,000. My guess is a few thousand. Low single digit survival rate.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Do they have a reduction gearbox?
Does it have oil that needs changing?

A Google search shows a few high mileage Tesla's
One at 1.24 million miles, miles not kilometres, it's had 4 batteries and 14 motors.
UPDATE: This 1.24 Million-Mile Tesla Model S Is On Its 14th Motor, Fourth Battery Pack (https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/)

One at 430,000 miles, again miles not Km, never been serviced, mostly supercharged to 100%, which is the worst thing you can do to the battery, on top of that the bloke bought it when Tesla offered free lifetime charging, at this stage his so far ahead resale doesn't matter.
Tesla Model S Cruises Past 430,000 Miles On Original Battery | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2024/06/this-tesla-model-s-has-been-driven-over-430000-miles-on-its-original-battery/)

Tony
There is a guy in the tesla group that does rideshare. He's got a 2021 that's up to 400,000. So far just cabin filters and tyres.

[DoubleChevron]

There is a guy in the tesla group that does rideshare. He's got a 2021 that's up to 400,000. So far just cabin filters and tyres.

how many replacement motors? its only 4 years old, the problem with batteries is the chemistry dies with age. Yes, I know somoene once that did 1,000,000 kms in a falcon taxi on lpg .... Oh, hang on ... that is pretty much all the LPG falcons on lpg [bighmmm] I must admit, they did need the gearboxes rebuilt every few hundred thousand kms. The motors? if they died, for a decade or so there, you could by a barra for less than $100 as a long motor and replace it. Gee's they were economical and reliable motoring.

there is a tesla ubur vehicle that always gets referenced. They don't mention the battery being replaced (I'm sure it has been), however it had numerous new motors (which is very weird). Why isn't the electric motor lasting indefinitely [bigsad]

stories like yours are always "I know someone ... somehwere that got a million miles from there ... never had a problem and its battery is still perfect". Yeah sure, whatever.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/60ce1b7dd21cd5b42639ff42/6646a4b4c4771a03469ca7fc_Model%203%20(3).webp

hah! that is hilarous, the article with backup as supplied by the cars themselves has been removed. what a suprise. We can't have the honest factual truth out there. the article is gone, but this was based on tesla vehicle own data downloaded over thousands of vehicles used in normal use.

Note: this is compared to the "factory claims for range". so the graph is kinda crap anyway. ie: you need to use the "real world range' as the starting point for the graph, not the manufactures range (which is ridiculous, impossible to match nonsense). the graph would look nowhere near as bad if they has used real world battery range as the starting point.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

how many replacement motors? its only 4 years old, the problem with batteries is the chemistry dies with age. Yes, I know somoene once that did 1,000,000 kms in a falcon taxi on lpg .... Oh, hang on ... that is pretty much all the LPG falcons on lpg [bighmmm] I must admit, they did need the gearboxes rebuilt every few hundred thousand kms. The motors? if they died, for a decade or so there, you could by a barra for less than $100 as a long motor and replace it. Gee's they were economical and reliable motoring.

there is a tesla ubur vehicle that always gets referenced. They don't mention the battery being replaced (I'm sure it has been), however it had numerous new motors (which is very weird). Why isn't the electric motor lasting indefinitely [bigsad]

stories like yours are always "I know someone ... somehwere that got a million miles from there ... never had a problem and its battery is still perfect". Yeah sure, whatever.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/60ce1b7dd21cd5b42639ff42/6646a4b4c4771a03469ca7fc_Model%203%20(3).webp

hah! that is hilarous, the article with backup as supplied by the cars themselves has been removed. what a suprise. We can't have the honest factual truth out there. the article is gone, but this was based on tesla vehicle own data downloaded over thousands of vehicles used in normal use.

Note: this is compared to the "factory claims for range". so the graph is kinda crap anyway. ie: you need to use the "real world range' as the starting point for the graph, not the manufactures range (which is ridiculous, impossible to match nonsense). the graph would look nowhere near as bad if they has used real world battery range as the starting point.

Sorry.. WTF do you get this stuff?

According to your graph I should be down to 70% range by now? Seriously?

And the UBER.. at 400k he had a proper test done, still at 89% original capacity.

Ooops.. actually he has had a battery replacement.. the 12v battery. Cost $165 (they are only little). The newer cars have a lithium version.. more reliable.

[vnx205]

A big problem with that graph is that the baseline isn't zero.

At first glance it appears to show that the capacity has dropped to almost nothing. Casual observers will see it as a drop of about 90%.

Only those who read the scale on the left will realise that it is less than a 10% drop.

The missing baseline is a well known tecjnique for producing a misleading graph.

[PhilipA]

So you don't think that a 36% range reduction in about 5 Years from what the salesman told the customer on buying the car is insignificant?
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

A big problem with that graph is that the baseline isn't zero.

At first glance it appears to show that the capacity has dropped to almost nothing. Casual observers will see it as a drop of about 90%.

Only those who read the scale on the left will realise that it is less than a 10% drop.

The missing baseline is a well known tecjnique for producing a misleading graph.
It's really hard to say what is going on in that graph. Perhaps they have mapped it to NEDC or something like that to get the first falls. It's hard to say. "Observational" like what does that mean?

Teslas report a range. It's a factor of what the car believes is it's capacity and a estimated distance per unit of power. You can do a proper capacity test in the battery with the service mode, but you have to fully charge your car and then allow it to discharge. So it's a giant waste of power and it's just generally a waste (I mean why do it?).

Anyway when the car was new the most the car said it would do was 428k. As at yesterday, it believes it's good for 422. So 6k degradation in 850 days or so. About 1.4%. Given we know batteries degrade the quickest in the first couple of years - I think this is perfectly acceptable. And it was expected.

Tesla have been selling cars for a little while now. If battery failures were common it would have caught up to them by now. I talked to a Tech who worked for BMW before going to tesla. He said they were replacing one battery a week at BMW, but since being at Tesla they had dropped three to fix things around the battery, and then put them all back in place. That's right, no battery replacements at all at Brisbane Tesla in a year.

This is why there is limited to no batteries recyclers in Australia. At this juncture - It would be a very very poor business.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

BTW I'm still waiting for the recommendation for what medium size ICE hatch back I should buy that's going to be good for 25 years.

If anyone tries a Rav4.. Toyota sold "more than 10,000" Rav4's in it's first full year of sale - 2001. There are now 5 on carsales. There are likely well less than a thousand survivors. Probably only a few hundred out of the 10,000.

[DoubleChevron]

It's really hard to say what is going on in that graph. Perhaps they have mapped it to NEDC or something like that to get the first falls. It's hard to say. "Observational" like what does that mean?

Teslas report a range. It's a factor of what the car believes is it's capacity and a estimated distance per unit of power. You can do a proper capacity test in the battery with the service mode, but you have to fully charge your car and then allow it to discharge. So it's a giant waste of power and it's just generally a waste (I mean why do it?).

Anyway when the car was new the most the car said it would do was 428k. As at yesterday, it believes it's good for 422. So 6k degradation in 850 days or so. About 1.4%. Given we know batteries degrade the quickest in the first couple of years - I think this is perfectly acceptable. And it was expected.

Tesla have been selling cars for a little while now. If battery failures were common it would have caught up to them by now. I talked to a Tech who worked for BMW before going to tesla. He said they were replacing one battery a week at BMW, but since being at Tesla they had dropped three to fix things around the battery, and then put them all back in place. That's right, no battery replacements at all at Brisbane Tesla in a year.

This is why there is limited to no batteries recyclers in Australia. At this juncture - It would be a very very poor business.

The only problem with the graph is the start point is the manufactures claimed milage. If they used a real world figure here, the drop would be considerably less. This article was based on real world car data, downloaded from teslas, so I'm quite suprised it has been removed.

[TonyC]

The only problem with the graph is the start point is the manufactures claimed milage. If they used a real world figure here, the drop would be considerably less. This article was based on real world car data, downloaded from teslas, so I'm quite suprised it has been removed.

But the test is a government mandated test.
The manufacturer has no choice, they have to quote the result of that test, both ICE and EV

[JDNSW]

BTW I'm still waiting for the recommendation for what medium size ICE hatch back I should buy that's going to be good for 25 years.

.............

I had my niece here for lunch today. She told me she needs to buy a new car. I responded that hers is pretty new - it is a RAV4 about twelve years old, with only about 100,000km. Mine (110) is 39 years old and coming up to 750,000km.

Her response is that today they only make cars to last about ten years. After that bits start to fall off - they are designed like that so they can sell new ones. Certainly, she has gone through a number of cars in the last twenty years - I remember her first Toyota (a Corolla) she got rid of after the steering locked due to a tooth on the rack breaking on a roundabout, but I can't recollect what else she has owned, although I seem to remember that she replaced her last car because body fittings started failing and were unobtainable, but I can't remember what it was.

[DoubleChevron]

BTW I'm still waiting for the recommendation for what medium size ICE hatch back I should buy that's going to be good for 25 years.

If anyone tries a Rav4.. Toyota sold "more than 10,000" Rav4's in it's first full year of sale - 2001. There are now 5 on carsales. There are likely well less than a thousand survivors. Probably only a few hundred out of the 10,000.

all of them .... just pick one. the will need to be maintained obviously. I have lots of 25year old car. Most are cars everyone called "very unreliable" when new.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I had my niece here for lunch today. She told me she needs to buy a new car. I responded that hers is pretty new - it is a RAV4 about twelve years old, with only about 100,000km. Mine (110) is 39 years old and coming up to 750,000km.

Her response is that today they only make cars to last about ten years. After that bits start to fall off - they are designed like that so they can sell new ones. Certainly, she has gone through a number of cars in the last twenty years - I remember her first Toyota (a Corolla) she got rid of after the steering locked due to a tooth on the rack breaking on a roundabout, but I can't recollect what else she has owned, although I seem to remember that she replaced her last car because body fittings started failing and were unobtainable, but I can't remember what it was.

That's how it happens. One thing about having this discussion about "how long does a car last" is that any and all cars can be made to last pretty much indefinitely. The problem is as they get older the general condition of the car declines, and the amount of work or potential work increases. Is it worth rebuilding the engine when you know the transmission also needs work.. and so on.

Now it's at this point that it all comes down to what motives people have. If people are particularly attracted to a car then they might justify some big repairs. If the car has value because it's in someway special then it also might justify repairs (See my earlier observations that the bulk of nissans that appear to survive are either patrols or sports cars. All the mundane ones are gone).

But in most cases in general people are realistic about their cars. If a vehicle has reached say 15 - and it needs a major repair. And the street value is maybe 4k .. and you can get 500-100 at the wreckers.. Look at the Discoveries.. the D3's and the likes. The repairs are so expensive that now then are getting down in resale they are just written off.. That's just the way forward.

Will EV's be any different? It's a known unknown but I think they will probably last at least as long as an equivalent ICE because I think their low operating costs will give them more value.

The NCA NCM cars which are made up of thousands of cells. I think they will be the most likely to suffer from battery failures long term because when one cell fails it can take down the module. Depends if there is enough demand for the aftermarket to step up.

The question I have is about how LIFPO4 packs go as they are very different internally. They don't tend to suffer catastrophic failures like other chemistries, tending to just gradually increase in internal resistance and capacity. If they just slowly loose capacity then I think the vehicles they are in will lead long lives. They have ample range now but even if that drops by 20% they will still be very useful with probably 300k+ still.

[PhilipA]

The average age of cars in Australia is 10.6 years.

The average age of the Australian vehicle fleet was approximately 10.6 years as of late 2023, with the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) Motor Vehicle Census showing the figure at 10.6 years in the January 2021 data. Tasmania consistently has the oldest vehicles, around 13 years, while the ACT has the youngest fleet, about 9.5 years.
So even if the normal distribution is skewed there are LOTS of cars that are over 15 years old.
My daughter has a Honda Jazz which is 14 years old, and completely reliable and I recently sold my 2002.5 Disco 2 which is still on the road.
I don't think Car Sales is a good example as reliable models tend to be kept off the market. There are lots of Teslas there .
Regards PhilipA

[DoubleChevron]

The average age of cars in Australia is 10.6 years.

So even if the normal distribution is skewed there are LOTS of cars that are over 15 years old.
My daughter has a Honda Jazz which is 14 years old, and completely reliable and I recently sold my 2002.5 Disco 2 which is still on the road.
I don't think Car Sales is a good example as reliable models tend to be kept off the market. There are lots of Teslas there .
Regards PhilipA

it depends on milage and area. If your someone that lives in a very wealthy area, all you will see is new or freshly restored classic cars. If you are someone that piles on 50,000kms a year onto cars ... you will always have new cars every few years. This isn't the norm though.

The difference is, with an electric throw away, even if its parked mostly un-used, only driven to church on sunday .... and only has 8,000kms on it in 10years time. It is still a useless throw away as the battery will be well past its use by date. If that was ANY .... just any type of other car, you would you would have one hell of a usable vehicle still (worse case it'll need cambelts).

I know if my mother for example doesn't drive her car for 10years. I could turn up with a drum of fresh fuel and battery and I'll be driving that car without a few hours with 100% reliability (so long as the tires aren't perished). Its also already 40years old the car .... what's another decade?

[DoubleChevron]

The average age of cars in Australia is 10.6 years.

So even if the normal distribution is skewed there are LOTS of cars that are over 15 years old.
My daughter has a Honda Jazz which is 14 years old, and completely reliable and I recently sold my 2002.5 Disco 2 which is still on the road.
I don't think Car Sales is a good example as reliable models tend to be kept off the market. There are lots of Teslas there .
Regards PhilipA

Have you noticed your posts here are being moderated and approved before they show... I bet anything "pro" EV isn't getting this treatment.

Eg: if I'm logged in I have the last post.... so it "looks" like it posts.

194417


but if I'm logged out, it doesn't exist.


194418

Am I really that abusive that I need my posts approved before they can be seen [bighmmm]

I don't really care as we are extremely fortunate to have access to such an incredible forum for next to zero dollars.... but it is very strange. Why would moderators want to make the extra work for themselves when everyone is so well behaved.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The average age of cars in Australia is 10.6 years.

So even if the normal distribution is skewed there are LOTS of cars that are over 15 years old.
My daughter has a Honda Jazz which is 14 years old, and completely reliable and I recently sold my 2002.5 Disco 2 which is still on the road.
I don't think Car Sales is a good example as reliable models tend to be kept off the market. There are lots of Teslas there .
Regards PhilipA
From data.gov.au gives all sorts. of information This page here gives all sorts of data. The second one from the top gives the number of vehicles by year, type, and numbe, issued in 2023.

I can't be bothered all the states by year, so below is the passenger vehicles by year for NSW. If you look at the last 10 years from 2022. The average number of vehicles sold per year is 254k. If you go back 25 years from there that's 1997and the number remaining on the road was 21.5k. So less than 10% and dropping rapidly!

I think it's interesting. It backs up why your niece and I have been saying. :D. Most cars make it through the first ten years, but after that it really starts dropping off quickly.

The way averages work a few oldies can really skew the figures. Can I be bothered calculating the median? Hmmmm...





2012
230564


2013
247774


2014
245228


2015
278392


2016
287595


2017
286823


2018
263860


2019
245450


2020
216946


2021
263928


2022
213501







Road vehicles Australia, January 2023 - Dataset - Data.gov.au (https://data.gov.au/data/dataset/road-vehicles-australia-january-2023)








1912
3







1914
3


1921
3


1922
0


1923
49


1924
13


1925
21


1926
27


1927
54


1928
217


1929
102


1930
80


1931
40


1932
238


1933
63


1934
238


1935
68


1936
75


1937
85


1938
54


1939
75


1940
48


1941
10


1942
11


1943
4


1944
12


1945
0


1946
34


1947
56


1948
112


1949
98


1950
113


1951
123


1952
89


1953
143


1954
208


1955
297


1956
307


1957
460


1958
311


1959
409


1960
396


1961
327


1962
538


1963
741


1964
1298


1965
1200


1966
1383


1967
1402


1968
1422


1969
1614


1970
2098


1971
2237


1972
1515


1973
1509


1974
1734


1975
1357


1976
1486


1977
1414


1978
1297


1979
1097


1980
794


1981
927


1982
1149


1983
1125


1984
1806


1985
2517


1986
1886


1987
1676


1988
2576


1989
3990


1990
5361


1991
5600


1992
6669


1993
8130


1994
10575


1995
12296


1996
14764


1997
21559


1998
30930


1999
37882


2000
50596


2001
56620


2002
72507


2003
97584


2004
111655


2005
128580


2006
138855


2007
164045


2008
167809


2009
166579


2010
199176


2011
200493


2012
230564


2013
247774


2014
245228


2015
278392


2016
287595


2017
286823


2018
263860


2019
245450


2020
216946


2021
263928


2022
213501

[DoubleChevron]

From data.gov.au gives all sorts. of information This page here gives all sorts of data. The second one from the top gives the number of vehicles by year, type, and numbe, issued in 2023.

I can't be bothered all the states by year, so below is the passenger vehicles by year for NSW. If you look at the last 10 years from 2022. The average number of vehicles sold per year is 254k. If you go back 25 years from there that's 1997and the number remaining on the road was 21.5k. So less than 10% and dropping rapidly!

I think it's interesting. It backs up why your niece and I have been saying. :D. Most cars make it through the first ten years, but after that it really starts dropping off quickly.

The way averages work a few oldies can really skew the figures. Can I be bothered calculating the median? Hmmmm...





2012
230564


2013
247774


2014
245228


2015
278392


2016
287595


2017
286823


2018
263860


2019
245450


2020
216946


2021
263928


2022
213501





Road vehicles Australia, January 2023 - Dataset - Data.gov.au (https://data.gov.au/data/dataset/road-vehicles-australia-january-2023)








1912
3






1914
3


1921
3


1922
0


1923
49


1924
13


1925
21


1926
27


1927
54


1928
217


1929
102


1930
80


1931
40


1932
238


1933
63


1934
238


1935
68


1936
75


1937
85


1938
54


1939
75


1940
48


1941
10


1942
11


1943
4


1944
12


1945
0


1946
34


1947
56


1948
112


1949
98


1950
113


1951
123


1952
89


1953
143


1954
208


1955
297


1956
307


1957
460


1958
311


1959
409


1960
396


1961
327


1962
538


1963
741


1964
1298


1965
1200


1966
1383


1967
1402


1968
1422


1969
1614


1970
2098


1971
2237


1972
1515


1973
1509


1974
1734


1975
1357


1976
1486


1977
1414


1978
1297


1979
1097


1980
794


1981
927


1982
1149


1983
1125


1984
1806


1985
2517


1986
1886


1987
1676


1988
2576


1989
3990


1990
5361


1991
5600


1992
6669


1993
8130


1994
10575


1995
12296


1996
14764


1997
21559


1998
30930


1999
37882


2000
50596


2001
56620


2002
72507


2003
97584


2004
111655


2005
128580


2006
138855


2007
164045


2008
167809


2009
166579


2010
199176


2011
200493


2012
230564


2013
247774


2014
245228


2015
278392


2016
287595


2017
286823


2018
263860


2019
245450


2020
216946


2021
263928


2022
213501




At the 25 year mark, a lot of the cars that are kept by people may well get moved to a club permit. Not many mind you, but I wonder if the stats includes this. I am frequently amazed at the old cars that appear out of nowhere every spring. The vast variety of old cars being kept on the roads (limited use) is quite remarkable.

Its like I said before, electric throw-aways simply take personal tranport (cars) out of the hands of poor people. They are basically throw aways at the 8 year mark. So for example, none of my kids would have cars ... hell I probably wouldn't have a car if I was forced to use an electric throw-away. You see, these are the poeple that are running these vehicles. I spend $5000 to buy a 20 year old citroen c2 for the elderst daughter, that included roadworhty and registration. the car only had 68,000kms on it from new. These cars simply will not exist. I have no doubts in the future anyone insane enough to buy an 8year old electric throw-away (out of sheer desperation) .... would be left reponsible for the gigantic cost of the safe disposal of the battery. ie: people will be dragging these things into the bush and torching them to get rid of there liability.

I see absolutely no positives of electric throw-aways as they age. Everything about them is just nuts. What are we going to do with hundreds of thousand of unsafe batteries in 10years time? Yes, I know, they will be burried everywhere and burn underground.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

At the 25 year mark, a lot of the cars that are kept by people may well get moved to a club permit. Not many mind you, but I wonder if the stats includes this. I am frequently amazed at the old cars that appear out of nowhere every spring. The vast variety of old cars being kept on the roads (limited use) is quite remarkable.

Its like I said before, electric throw-aways simply take personal tranport (cars) out of the hands of poor people. They are basically throw aways at the 8 year mark. So for example, none of my kids would have cars ... hell I probably wouldn't have a car if I was forced to use an electric throw-away. You see, these are the poeple that are running these vehicles. I spend $5000 to buy a 20 year old citroen c2 for the elderst daughter, that included roadworhty and registration. the car only had 68,000kms on it from new. These cars simply will not exist. I have no doubts in the future anyone insane enough to buy an 8year old electric throw-away (out of sheer desperation) .... would be left reponsible for the gigantic cost of the safe disposal of the battery. ie: people will be dragging these things into the bush and torching them to get rid of there liability.

I see absolutely no positives of electric throw-aways as they age. Everything about them is just nuts. What are we going to do with hundreds of thousand of unsafe batteries in 10years time? Yes, I know, they will be burried everywhere and burn underground.

While frankly I struggle with your position on many things.. I think we can agree that by the time vehicles are 25 years old they are usually although not always well and truly out of mainline service.

So now we've got there, if I'm just a normal person who just wants a car to do a job, why on earth would I care about whether a car is going to last 25 years?

I'm far more likely to consider other factors about it's operation and ownership.

If manufacturers thought they could sell more cars by making cars that lasted 25 years then they would. Instead they are focussed on making cars that go real well for 10 years, and then quickly descend into the abyss to encourage people to buy another one.

Just this morning I saw a lovely Disco TDv6 with lots of tasty stuff and in great condition. Motor blown. $2500! Go rage at Land Rover!

[V8Ian]

Have you noticed your posts here are being moderated and approved before they show... I bet anything "pro" EV isn't getting this treatment.

Eg: if I'm logged in I have the last post.... so it "looks" like it posts.

194417


but if I'm logged out, it doesn't exist.


194418

Am I really that abusive that I need my posts approved before they can be seen [bighmmm]

I don't really care as we are extremely fortunate to have access to such an incredible forum for next to zero dollars.... but it is very strange. Why would moderators want to make the extra work for themselves when everyone is so well behaved.
I've always thought you were somewhat partial to a conspiracy theory, but this one takes the cake.
I can assure you, pre-mod does not exist on this forum.
We do have the ability to ban/infract users, but this is only used for antisocial behaviour on the forum.
The moderation team neither have the ability nor desire to edit or affect individuals opinions, regardless of how wrong they may or may not be.

[DoubleChevron]

I've always thought you were somewhat partial to a conspiracy theory, but this one takes the cake.
I can assure you, pre-mod does not exist on this forum.
We do have the ability to ban/infract users, but this is only used for antisocial behaviour on the forum.
The moderation team neither have the ability nor desire to edit or affect individuals opinions, regardless of how wrong they may or may not be.

Not really, either you have database sharing issues ....or these posts require approval. Like I said, I don't care, but its work for admin. I'm a moderator/admin on other forums, and am also a computer programmer with decades of experience. so do understand how this stuff works.

so no, not a conspiracy theory. If I make a post in other forums, it always appears "immediately", so there is no post approval required in them. We setup the same approval on areas that archive commonly requested problems/fixes on forums I'm admin on, otherwise you end up with to much chatter in the archive areas.

[V8Ian]

Believe whatever you want, there is no approval system on this forum.
If there was, how and why would members need to report posts that contravene forum rules. (A rhetorical question.)

[NavyDiver]

So you don't think that a 36% range reduction in about 5 Years from what the salesman told the customer on buying the car is insignificant?
Regards PhilipA
Fully agree. I think the solid state may have that side covered or my be just wishful thinking. Proof is in what we do in our Landrovers or others.

The air filter thing made me chuckle a bit thinking of the 'ZF gearbox sealed for life' in our Discos. I know we could and most of us did fix it! Lies and deception are not just in the EV world. [thumbsupbig]

My boat just moved to it almost ready position [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Snapper, King Fish and Scallops are about to be in my esky. Its my mum and dads beat up old ex Vicpol Holden as tow tug- No lights or sirens promise. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

but they are maintainable.

what service does an EV need?
[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

I've always thought you were somewhat partial to a conspiracy theory, but this one takes the cake.
I can assure you, pre-mod does not exist on this forum.
We do have the ability to ban/infract users, but this is only used for antisocial behaviour on the forum.
The moderation team neither have the ability nor desire to edit or affect individuals opinions, regardless of how wrong they may or may not be.

I LOVE conspiracy theory Ian. Noting I AM OFTEN OR ALWAYS wrong[biggrin][biggrin] Or was that only pre-Divorce perhaps? We all appreciate Volunteers a lot. EV trip to a primay school to get paid to play/teach chess today. EV smile. Disco Grin replacement[bigrolf]

Just blew my privacy with the [B]CHEERS All

194442

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Whist I love a conspiracy theory .. having owned an EV now for a couple of years.

It's just a car with a battery.

It's nice to drive.

It can carry five full size people and stuff when required.

It's very cheap to run.

It meets our families' need for transport.

The End.

PS that this thread is up to some huge number of pages is beyond me.

[V8Ian]

Happy birthday James, if I'd known, I'd have met you in Dandy again. :twobeers:

[Tins]

Happy birthday James, if I'd known, I'd have met you in Dandy again. :twobeers:

He lives on the wrong side of town for that now, Ian. You'd do better to meet him at Geelong....

[V8Ian]

He lives on the wrong side of town for that now, Ian. You'd do better to meet him at Geelong....
If I can make the effort, so can he. [wink11]

[Tombie]

Biomass wood pellets are renewable as the CO2 emitted during burning for fuel is taken up by trees, which can then be converted into wood pellets, so a "virtuous cycle". Like I said we have to try in order to find these things out.

Correct.

Australia is already virtuous. Even burning coal, using ICE - we as a country already sequester more CO2 than we emit.

Australia is already carbon neutral.

Instead, in a vein attempt to pander to the UN we are driving costs through the roof, crippling growth (except in subsidised industries) all in the name of ?being green?.

Now, I'm happy for EVs in high density environments - keeps local emissions from clogging up high density populations - however we can happily use Coal in more sparsely populated locations where these disperse (aren't trapped in tight streets) and still be balanced.

Or of course we could go Nuke and have zero emissions there too?


Best example of insanity I witnessed last week.

2 families travelling to the Mundi Mundi bash towing with EVs. They had a friend towing a 17kva genset with his diesel Cruiser - and they would stop every 200-250km to charge before moving on again?

That's a total misapplication of technologies!

[RANDLOVER]

We are not carbon neutral yet never mind positive yet, people have mistakenly made such claims like...Professor double counts with claim Australia is already at net zero | AAP (https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/professor-double-counts-with-claim-australia-is-already-at-net-zero/)

When it comes to nuclear, why build any when we have a massive one in the sky, the sun.

Those EV's could have been very low emissions if the genset and Cruiser ran on biodiesel or WVO waste vegetable oil (less desirable)...https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.drive.com.au/news/viral-video-diesel-generator-powering-nrma-ev-chargers/&ved=2ahUKEwjJx_HKxKePAxXBiK8BHSe6ARUQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw29cy7Qktqerq18ve8WZdt7

[DoubleChevron]

We are not carbon neutral yet never mind positive yet, people have mistakenly made such claims like...Professor double counts with claim Australia is already at net zero | AAP (https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/professor-double-counts-with-claim-australia-is-already-at-net-zero/)

When it comes to nuclear, why build any when we have a massive one in the sky, the sun.

Those EV's could have been very low emissions if the genset and Cruiser ran on biodiesel or WVO waste vegetable oil (less desirable)...https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.drive.com.au/news/viral-video-diesel-generator-powering-nrma-ev-chargers/&ved=2ahUKEwjJx_HKxKePAxXBiK8BHSe6ARUQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw29cy7Qktqerq18ve8WZdt7

Pure insanity.... you need big spinning turbines to stabilise the grid. Unless you are happy to go without power overnight, solar is just ridiculous. So now you want to use our food growing earth to grow biodiesel oil.... Utter crazyness, the driest continent on the planet, and you think we should BURN (those hordenously dangerous fumes from burning stuff .... Oh no! we will all die ... the planet will heat up and end).

Much like electric cars, this is just nonsense as soon as you roll it out to anything other than a tiny, miniscule percentage of the population. I'm not pro-nuclear, but we need something that can generate masses of power 24 hours a days, 7 days a week .... everyday ... for decades on end .... 50+ years easily. Realistically we need a couple of dirty big coal powered powerstations built to get us through the next 50years while we work out a sensible alternate form of power generation.

There is a reason why all the nutty countries going down this route are desperately turning back on there nuclear and coal burning power stations. Would you believe it, people and industry don't like blackouts for days at a time (just look at spain, and germany .... UK would be a quagmire of people freezing to death if they didn't import power from europe .... just nuts.

[PhilipA]

Biomass wood pellets are renewable as the CO2 emitted during burning for fuel is taken up by trees, which can then be converted into wood pellets, so a "virtuous cycle". Like I said we have to try in order to find these things out.
Oh come on!
The wood chips are imported from the USA and maybe Canada. They are shipped to port by road and rail (DIESEL)
They are shipped from the USA to UK(Diesel)
The trees that are woodchipped regrow in 20 to 50 Years.
About 10% if UK power is produced this way. It is a complete rort and generates much more pollution than coal.
It is allowed only to allow the Government to appear "virtuous" by reducing coal usage.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

We are not carbon neutral yet never mind positive yet, people have mistakenly made such claims like...Professor double counts with claim Australia is already at net zero | AAP (https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/professor-double-counts-with-claim-australia-is-already-at-net-zero/)

When it comes to nuclear, why build any when we have a massive one in the sky, the sun.

Those EV's could have been very low emissions if the genset and Cruiser ran on biodiesel or WVO waste vegetable oil (less desirable)...https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.drive.com.au/news/viral-video-diesel-generator-powering-nrma-ev-chargers/&ved=2ahUKEwjJx_HKxKePAxXBiK8BHSe6ARUQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw29cy7Qktqerq18ve8WZdt7

Germany is bio energy keen. Forest being cut down and shipped to Germany to be GREEN power is there so called Bio fuel "German Renewable Energy Federation (BEE), bioenergy currently accounts for about 8.5% of Germany's total primary energy consumption. This figure includes the use of biomass, biogas, and biofuels for heat, electricity, and transportation"

Personally, this post belongs in JOKES really [bigrolf][bigrolf]

I like Solar. It can help a bit at times. I cannot be 24 7 *365 year in year out.

The twit in your link is funny "Professor Ian Plimer (https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/14567-ian-plimer)3 (https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/profile/14567-ian-plimer), a geologist and long-time climate change sceptic (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/24/news-corp-columnists-climate-denialism-called-out-by-press-council)4 (https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/24/news-corp-columnists-climate-denialism-called-out-by-press-council), made the comment in a Spectator column (https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/05/australia-is-already-at-net-zero/)5 (https://www.spectator.com.au/2022/05/australia-is-already-at-net-zero/) which also appeared as a blog post (https://australianclimatesceptics.com/?p=501&fbclid=IwAR35w-uFPTaU-1JynjqRGkyIMTh1NVojyeCse_q2k35O22CKdjRMCSd4wmg)6 (https://australianclimatesceptics.com/?p=501&fbclid=IwAR35w-uFPTaU-1JynjqRGkyIMTh1NVojyeCse_q2k35O22CKdjRMCSd4wmg). He made a similar claim on Sky News Australia (https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/outsiders/australia-has-been-at-net-zero-for-a-long-time-ian-plimer/video/0538227964ace8414356a15203cfb282)7 (https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/outsiders/australia-has-been-at-net-zero-for-a-long-time-ian-plimer/video/0538227964ace8414356a15203cfb282).He claims that, according to United Nations (https://www.un.org/en/)8 (https://www.un.org/en/) (UN) and The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (https://www.ipcc.ch/)9 (https://www.ipcc.ch/) (IPCC) rhetoric, Australia should be "financially rewarded" for removing more carbon dioxide (CO2) than it emits.
His argument, he explains, is based on figures which he claims show Australia's ecosystem removes more CO2 than we as a country emit."

Not the sharpest tool in the box? He is clearly not counting all the coal, Gas and other stuff we send OS by the super tanker daily.

Back to EV. Off the for a 1000km round trip today and tomorrow - Last 200km bit will be coming home on Sunday.

I could do a direct cost comparison for my Disco and the EV. [B]That would be depressing.


I will skip it and enjoy a nice feed with my kids tonight then head West for a regular assistance mission.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So they are subsidising batteries now so that is one solution and it will help. I believe it should have been done at the grid level but given that was too hard this will help.

[Tombie]

We are not carbon neutral yet never mind positive yet, people have mistakenly made such claims like...Professor double counts with claim Australia is already at net zero | AAP (https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/professor-double-counts-with-claim-australia-is-already-at-net-zero/)

When it comes to nuclear, why build any when we have a massive one in the sky, the sun.

Those EV's could have been very low emissions if the genset and Cruiser ran on biodiesel or WVO waste vegetable oil (less desirable)...https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.drive.com.au/news/viral-video-diesel-generator-powering-nrma-ev-chargers/&ved=2ahUKEwjJx_HKxKePAxXBiK8BHSe6ARUQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw29cy7Qktqerq18ve8WZdt7

No they couldn't. Many Modern engines suffer when running high levels of bio based fuel, hence why there are limits on blending.

There is no such thing as a free lunch!

And why build nuke? Because it's stable, very stable. And long lived - you won't be replacing it in any great hurry. Heck, they can build one right next door to me if they like. I certainly don't suffer from fear of the nuclear boogie man!

I love my solar, although governments and companies are now pricing it out of viability for bill reduction so little reason to have it now as there no need to charge an EV here (it would be useless for us) - it would never be home during the day to charge up.

On our touring rig of course, solar is fantastic - we power our wobble box on solar and generate more than consumed easily.

Powering a nation though - is not the realm of Solar or Wind?. Just say in front of the Mundi Mundi wind turbines for 6 days. Not more than 1 was ever rotating that entire time. A huge white elephant when it was peak consumption times.

And as is continually raised in this thread - electrification is far beyond the scope of mining to provide - and the nations being harmed to get to some of these elements is borderline criminal. Australia gets up in arms when a hole is to be dug to get some Iron or Copper out. Yet countries are being molested and people displaced as their environment alters, just so we have Lithium. This will get far worse.

All the tech in the world, to make batteries higher density and/or safer does not remove the harm generated to procure the components necessary.

Heck, people are losing their **** over the Lead smelter across the water from me, yet happy to drive their EV which destroyed multiple foreign peoples homes, lands, water?.

EVs are a unique and interesting proposition - who doesn't like a Scalectrix car [emoji56] but they aren't the solution. They're the next challenge to be overcome.

[Tombie]

So they are subsidising batteries now so that is one solution and it will help. I believe it should have been done at the grid level but given that was too hard this will help.

Correction - The have Nots are subsiding the Can haves to get batteries.

The batteries themselves still remain a huge issue on multiple fronts.

First is components.

Second - I do insurance 'tests? each year, testing which company is willing to give me the best deal.

Latest questions - Any EVs? Any House Batteries? When I asked what difference does that make? I had answers that varied from ?We would decline cover? to ?Your premium will be higher?

One company was happy if any EV or batteries weren't attached to the main dwelling.

We are pricing ourselves into poverty all in the name of virtue signalling.

A slightly Bigger picture.
EVs won't solve housing shortage
More houses will require more energy
Number of houses required is significant!
Grid cannot meet high demand now let alone if all above needs were met.

Businesses now shut down during peak pricing as it's cheaper than maintaining production - crippling outputs

Huge solar farm outside broken hill - all the land the arrays sit on - 100% cleared of all natural growth - alters the LU data. Same for 2 arrays built close to me - all the land was cleared 100%


?I got an EV. It's saved me thousands? [emoji56]
No it ****ing hasn't! It's cost you and our next generations, debt that will be almost insurmountable. Tunnel vision at its finest.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Correction - The have Nots are subsiding the Can haves to get batteries.

The batteries themselves still remain a huge issue on multiple fronts.

First is components.

Second - I do insurance 'tests? each year, testing which company is willing to give me the best deal.

Latest questions - Any EVs? Any House Batteries? When I asked what difference does that make? I had answers that varied from ?We would decline cover? to ?Your premium will be higher?

One company was happy if any EV or batteries weren't attached to the main dwelling.

We are pricing ourselves into poverty all in the name of virtue signalling.

A slightly Bigger picture.
EVs won't solve housing shortage
More houses will require more energy
Number of houses required is significant!
Grid cannot meet high demand now let alone if all above needs were met.

Businesses now shut down during peak pricing as it's cheaper than maintaining production - crippling outputs

Huge solar farm outside broken hill - all the land the arrays sit on - 100% cleared of all natural growth - alters the LU data. Same for 2 arrays built close to me - all the land was cleared 100%


?I got an EV. It's saved me thousands? [emoji56]
No it ****ing hasn't! It's cost you and our next generations, debt that will be almost insurmountable. Tunnel vision at its finest.

My EV over the last year has used less than 5kwh a day.

So what's your position on Pools? The guys next door and diagonally behind me have just installed pools. Each one of those pools uses significantly more power to run than my EV. If they heat it, it probably uses an order of magnitude more power. I just counted, and there are 8 pools on my block.

Come to think of it.. my hot water system uses around 8kwh a day.

My fish tank uses 3 kwh a day. I used to have two tanks and combined they used more power than my EV.

I think the EV danger to the grid is in general blown out of proportion. Yes there can be some big localised power requirements around chargers, but at this juncture they are a drop in the bucket to the power demands of a large city. Most commercial buildings power requirements would dwarf fast charger energy requirements.

PS I charge my EV by arrangement with my power company when it suits them. If there is a large load on the grid they can halt charging. Unlike AC's and Pools.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Also my fairly average solar system generates about 8000 kwh a year. The car 1700 kwh.

[RANDLOVER]

Oh come on!
The wood chips are imported from the USA and maybe Canada. They are shipped to port by road and rail (DIESEL)
They are shipped from the USA to UK(Diesel)
The trees that are woodchipped regrow in 20 to 50 Years.
About 10% if UK power is produced this way. It is a complete rort and generates much more pollution than coal.
It is allowed only to allow the Government to appear "virtuous" by reducing coal usage.
Regards PhilipA
Yes, I think I saw one of these plants on Michael Portillo's rail TV programme and they admitted it was a problem that they couldn't source the wood locally however coal would still have to travel by DIESEL train and ship to the plant. Also I don't think the Biomass plants were designed to take over all the power generation, but rather as a transition fuel for coal and even gas plants and for base load power when needed. I still think we are in the early days of transition and won't let "perfect be the enemy of good", there is a lot to be said for "learning by doing".

[Tombie]

Your car used 5kwh. Local example a guy uses his full battery capacity in his Tesla 3 daily. Bit more than 5kwh.

What none of the ICE engines do is run the risk of 'starving? someone of energy.

But that's moot?


EVs aren't our developing crisis, that is base load energy - energy prices and distribution.

You should see how many towers are going up over here to join all these ?green energy? sites to the ever strained grid. There's 20 just north of my current location - all being built (subsidised btw) to feed some wind and solar power to the grid.

There are no rotating mass generators to be seen, all we have is Elons battery a few 100km away which is good for about 13 seconds! It's already suffered a few fires.

Another ship is due here soon, loaded with blades etc for more turbines. Loads of bunker oil burned to get them here, unloaded using diesel, trucked using diesel, assembled using diesel, mounted in concrete made using diesel plant.

The once pristine horizons now look awful. Bloody white sticks with tri-blades everywhere. And below them, great swathes of land cleared and covered in glass and metal. Poisons sprayed regularly to prevent the regrowth from interfering with the kit.


And what did my vehicle cost me today?
About $1.50 in fuel, not a single vehicle repayment, a few cents in tyre wear etc.

It won't get home before dark, it'll leave before first light every day this week.

It will then hitch up the van on Thursday, drive 430km without stopping whilst towing 3.3t.

It will then sit there (in a place with no available power) before staring again Monday and driving 430km back home (not needing to refuel in that time).

The van will self sustain on solar the entire time.

Yes, the fuel bill will be $275.00 but again, not a single vehicle payment will be needed. I won't need to sit idly by waiting for some ?clean? killa watts get pumped in. I won't have to wait for others at the only chargers on the route home.

If I was to try and do this in an EV I'd be stopped to charge 3-4 times, I'd need full charge, so would need to take more time off work - that extra time if factored into my journey would add over $600 in lost pay hours. Given time also has value - hanging around a charger is time not spent with friends, family or pursuits.

It's not just about running costs - else none of us would travel.

Even if say a hybrid like the BYD Shark could tow my van (it cannot), it uses over 15l/100km of petrol to keep its hybrid set up running when *not* towing at 110km/h. Its only value proposition is when it's in its urban environment and used under 70km range (as my good mate uses it for).

EVs have a great purpose - metro/inner city - reducing *localised* emissions. Thats a perfect use case. It's not green, it's only locally green.

Anyone who has a life beyond the domestic triangle though tends to have a second ICE vehicle at hand.

I can say I know of one exception to that here, he is 100% Tesla. Has the long range model. It can do a run to Adelaide in 1 charge.
He is a tech geek, has no ?external? social life - no outdoor pursuits or need to deviate from his 2 point travel. He will never attempt a trip beyond that distance without an overnight stop.
Any long distance travel for him comes with motel costs and carefully planned travel routes.

He purchased this vehicle to reduce his running costs, trading in a frugal and very well maintained VW Golf.

Now he pays his monthly payment to Tesla finance all whilst 'saving? money on running costs [emoji56] and sounds like the Electric version of a Vegan all day around the office.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Your car used 5kwh. Local example a guy uses his full battery capacity in his Tesla 3 daily. Bit more than 5kwh.

What none of the ICE engines do is run the risk of 'starving? someone of energy.

But that's moot?


EVs aren't our developing crisis, that is base load energy - energy prices and distribution.

You should see how many towers are going up over here to join all these ?green energy? sites to the ever strained grid. There's 20 just north of my current location - all being built (subsidised btw) to feed some wind and solar power to the grid.

There are no rotating mass generators to be seen, all we have is Elons battery a few 100km away which is good for about 13 seconds! It's already suffered a few fires.

Another ship is due here soon, loaded with blades etc for more turbines. Loads of bunker oil burned to get them here, unloaded using diesel, trucked using diesel, assembled using diesel, mounted in concrete made using diesel plant.

The once pristine horizons now look awful. Bloody white sticks with tri-blades everywhere. And below them, great swathes of land cleared and covered in glass and metal. Poisons sprayed regularly to prevent the regrowth from interfering with the kit.


And what did my vehicle cost me today?
About $1.50 in fuel, not a single vehicle repayment, a few cents in tyre wear etc.

It won't get home before dark, it'll leave before first light every day this week.

It will then hitch up the van on Thursday, drive 430km without stopping whilst towing 3.3t.

It will then sit there (in a place with no available power) before staring again Monday and driving 430km back home (not needing to refuel in that time).

The van will self sustain on solar the entire time.

Yes, the fuel bill will be $275.00 but again, not a single vehicle payment will be needed. I won't need to sit idly by waiting for some ?clean? killa watts get pumped in. I won't have to wait for others at the only chargers on the route home.

If I was to try and do this in an EV I'd be stopped to charge 3-4 times, I'd need full charge, so would need to take more time off work - that extra time if factored into my journey would add over $600 in lost pay hours. Given time also has value - hanging around a charger is time not spent with friends, family or pursuits.

It's not just about running costs - else none of us would travel.

Even if say a hybrid like the BYD Shark could tow my van (it cannot), it uses over 15l/100km of petrol to keep its hybrid set up running when *not* towing at 110km/h. Its only value proposition is when it's in its urban environment and used under 70km range (as my good mate uses it for).

EVs have a great purpose - metro/inner city - reducing *localised* emissions. Thats a perfect use case. It's not green, it's only locally green.

Anyone who has a life beyond the domestic triangle though tends to have a second ICE vehicle at hand.

I can say I know of one exception to that here, he is 100% Tesla. Has the long range model. It can do a run to Adelaide in 1 charge.
He is a tech geek, has no ?external? social life - no outdoor pursuits or need to deviate from his 2 point travel. He will never attempt a trip beyond that distance without an overnight stop.
Any long distance travel for him comes with motel costs and carefully planned travel routes.

He purchased this vehicle to reduce his running costs, trading in a frugal and very well maintained VW Golf.

Now he pays his monthly payment to Tesla finance all whilst 'saving? money on running costs [emoji56] and sounds like the Electric version of a Vegan all day around the office.

You know I've got one of those mystical ICE 4x4 that seems to perform much as yours does? I've said time and again the best environmental outcome is to drive what you have.. and consider an EV when you need to replace..

Why do I need two large 4x4? Why not one ev for when I'm not hitching the van up? For when i'm just going to the shops?

I've never said EV's are good for everything. Or good for everyone. Just that they are good at some things.

In the city we have whole families buying SUV's that can hook the van up and do a big lap. One for Dad, one for Mum, and one for one or both of the kids. But for the most part hardly any of them even have a van, or venture anywhere other than the city. It's madness. So everyone is breathing in diesel particulate for no good reason I can see.

BTW we are having our ducted AC replaced today which got killed in the cyclone. At full capacity it used more than our EV does a day in one hour. The new one a bit less.

[RANDLOVER]

Naysayers love to pose questions as an "everything vs nothing" proposition. Also seem to be extremely concerned about where the "evil" EV's, batteries, PV's, wind turbines and associated resources come from and how it will all be recycled, but seem unconcerned about these resources when it comes to their phones, tablets, computers, x boxes, building materials, etc. Hopefully that concern is starting them thinking "think global, act local".

The current US administration is concerned about China's monopoly on critical minerals not because they are lovers of EV's, wind and solar (far from it), but because they are in just about all electronics and electronically controlled devices.

The "reduce, re-use, recycle" saying can be applied to travel as well. I think a lot of travel is due to poor planning, I've been on days off and leave and only driven the Discoverys once a week. It actually feels wobbly at first sitting so high up. Farmer's actually even go to town less than once a week so it can be done.

[Tombie]

I think we both agree an urban/metro application is the prime case for EVs.

Less exhaust in congested/built up environs is a good thing.



Beyond that? they are not a solution to the woes of our leaders who believe it will save the planet - they will be, if pushed to be the prime mode of propulsion, quite the opposite.

Watching the tech evolution is interesting as each company races to cash in (and that's the key drivers - industry and economic).

Either way, you cannot reduce emissions overall by wrecking areas of the planet, all whilst allowing ongoing population growth?


TLDR;

Even a very very simple example based on predicted human population growth shows we're on the wrong path:-

Assuming each human emits an average of 10% ?carbons?

Currently:
10% of 8.1 billion is 800 million ?carbons?

Back in 1985 when this sort of started
10% of 4.8 billion was 480 million ?carbons?

Based on predictions of 2050 population
9.7 billion we have 970 million ?carbons? to deal with.

That would require each human to reduce their footprint by 2% to 8%

Even then we still wouldn't reach parity as those extra 1.6 billion people will consume more industries and resources.

The proposed plan is a lot bigger than stifling industry all whilst increasing cost of living exponentially.

EVs cannot prevent this.


Any Person on the land will tell you, you don't over stock your resources. Else you decimate your land. The Earth is just a large ball of land, without attempts to manage it in a similar manner - the result of metaphorical over grazing - is inevitable.

Yikes!!!

[RANDLOVER]

You're halfway there Tombie, you're thinking global now what can you do to "act local"?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm a big fan of the Jevons Paradox.


The Jevons paradox, named after economist William Stanley Jevons (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=1c3d4a504141976f&rls=en&q=William+Stanley+Jevons&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjzu7CFuaqPAxWir1YBHQU5ALoQxccNegQINhAB&mstk=AUtExfD6oi_Ec1rWwwdm3usSlZubP0NA8BCyTYolgkPJc-tICTzZDjX9REkEPM6yGPkoKCJipuVi1mrwHQ0RjZqwZgTb6Zaw R6I4AEEfR71akCSaKJSZh97veRktcLaY0phno6k&csui=3),describes the phenomenon where increased efficiency in resource use can lead to increased overall consumption of that resource rather than a decrease. This counterintuitive outcome occurs because increased efficiency often lowers the cost of using the resource, which can then stimulate higher demand, potentially offsetting any initial efficiency gains.

IMHO a good example is how the modern turbo diesel has increased economy of vehicles. So rather than drive the same size vehicles we've always driven - we have chosen to drive much bigger vehicles which has offset any economy improvements.

Would 4x4 have been as popular if we had to drive petrol rangies, using close to 20l/100? Probably not. Instead we've adopted diesel prados as school run cars, which probably use at least as much fuel as the car mum used to drive a while back.

I'm conscious that some people who buy EV's may well make life choices which result in them driving more. This is not helping.

[350RRC]

The main reason young families get SUV's is so they don't have to bend over to pick up babies in capsules or toddlers to get them out of the car.

DL

[Saitch]

You're halfway there Tombie, you're thinking global now what can you do to "act local"?

You've got the terminology correct, at least. "Act"!

[Tombie]

You're halfway there Tombie, you're thinking global now what can you do to "act local"?

I can tell you right now, I won't be doing anything different.


But for a laugh; Locally we could reduce emissions:
- taking a Bolt gun to the skull of all Junkies - that's a 10-15% reduction in carbon emitting space wasters
- Stop hand outs that promote serial breeding without thought or contribution to society
- Bring back Castle Law, that'll cull a few vermin
- Bring back death penalty - no further emissions from them [emoji1787]

Ban all imports from companies that aren't environmentally ?exceptional? - well there goes almost everything [emoji56]

Ban any travel for non-essential needs?

Bring in the policy from the movie ?Humane? [emoji48]

[RANDLOVER]

Good stuff Tombie now you're thinking, perhaps think of some legal actions you can take, even just one to start with.

[RANDLOVER]

The main reason young families get SUV's is so they don't have to bend over to pick up babies in capsules or toddlers to get them out of the car.

DL

Older people also like them as they are easier to get in and out of.

[Tombie]

Good stuff Tombie now you're thinking, perhaps think of some legal actions you can take, even just one to start with.

I took a few easy ones. Stopped changing out vehicles every few years. Stopped buying new cars, which require additional resources to build. Stopped worrying about resale and focused on overall benefits of keeping what I have.

As I said, I have no intention of doing anything I don't want to, and that includes pandering to agendas designed to induce profits, at the expense of logic and common sense.

Now excuse me whilst I refine my model for our Mining Supply Chain [emoji847] got the Quarterly forecast to prepare for tomorrow [emoji3]

[RANDLOVER]

All good ideas, from this I hope people can see there are other actions they can take besides buying an EV.

[DoubleChevron]

All good ideas, from this I hope people can see there are other actions they can take besides buying an EV.

Well I'm at a loss, how does buying an EV do anything other than destroy your wallet and drive you insane with range anxiety [bighmmm] It certainly does absolutely nothing for the environment. You would have to be absolutey brain washed to even dream it does ....I doubt I'd take one, even at next to no cost. Why have a giant fire prone battery near where your family sleeps for no reason other than stupidity.

I don't think people buy twin cab utes is anything to do with reducing pollution (what a crazy thing to insinuate). People now don't have a quater acre block. most people live in hell holes where there is barely room to store there rubbish bin outside. The family wagon no longer exists, there is no room for the old " 6 x 4 " trailer ... The default vehicle pretty much by necessity for anyone that don't just sit at home on there bum playing computer games and watching TV .... is a twin cab ute. there isn't really an alternative. To suggest it is because they have become more efficient is crazy.... modern society has pretty much mandated them.

if you think the majority of australian can be bullied and co-erced into something as ridiculous and stupid as an EV, no matter what reguations are implement, you living in a dream world. I'm an average person, guess what likelyhood there is I will do something the goverment is trying to force me to ... .especially when blind freddy can see its absolutely moronic.

obviously we will just become the next cuba, like the UK is ... and norway ... and china ... everywhere they hold as as beacons of how amazing the EV is ... when you look into it, the vast, vast, vast majority of cars on the roads are NOT EV's. They just can't pry the ICE vehicles out of peoples hands. Even if they try massive restrictions on new ICE vehicles, people like me will just show them the middle finger and tell them to shove there heads where the sun doesn't shine.

seriously.... just try to make me do something I have no intenstion of doing. I can guarantee you will not succeed.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well I'm at a loss, how does buying an EV do anything other than destroy your wallet and drive you insane with range anxiety [bighmmm] It certainly does absolutely nothing for the environment. You would have to be absolutey brain washed to even dream it does ....I doubt I'd take one, even at next to no cost. Why have a giant fire prone battery near where your family sleeps for no reason other than stupidity.

I don't think people buy twin cab utes is anything to do with reducing pollution (what a crazy thing to insinuate). People now don't have a quater acre block. most people live in hell holes where there is barely room to store there rubbish bin outside. The family wagon no longer exists, there is no room for the old " 6 x 4 " trailer ... The default vehicle pretty much by necessity for anyone that don't just sit at home on there bum playing computer games and watching TV .... is a twin cab ute. there isn't really an alternative. To suggest it is because they have become more efficient is crazy.... modern society has pretty much mandated them.

if you think the majority of australian can be bullied and co-erced into something as ridiculous and stupid as an EV, no matter what reguations are implement, you living in a dream world. I'm an average person, guess what likelyhood there is I will do something the goverment is trying to force me to ... .especially when blind freddy can see its absolutely moronic.

obviously we will just become the next cuba, like the UK is ... and norway ... and china ... everywhere they hold as as beacons of how amazing the EV is ... when you look into it, the vast, vast, vast majority of cars on the roads are NOT EV's. They just can't pry the ICE vehicles out of peoples hands. Even if they try massive restrictions on new ICE vehicles, people like me will just show them the middle finger and tell them to shove there heads where the sun doesn't shine.

seriously.... just try to make me do something I have no intenstion of doing. I can guarantee you will not succeed.

I'm pretty sure I get that you don't like EV's. Not that you really have any real understanding of what it's actually like to operate one. But sure.. whatever.

What we do need to do is enable people who are more logical to make good choices.

PS. How many dual cab utes per family is considered a good number for city dwellers?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm still waiting for this cohorts position on filling our cars with Russian crude that was shipped to India in "shadow tankers" and refined there.

Does that make us happy?

Does having a supply chain that only has a few weeks reserve cause any twinges of concern? Any inkling that maybe lessening our reliance on that wouldn't be a bad thing?

[PhilipA]

PS. How many dual cab utes per family is considered a good number for city dwellers?
As many as they want. That is freedom of choice in a democracy.
That is why we are not driving Ladas.
Funnily enough it is Federal government policy that enables tradies to buy them by slapping a sign on the side claim depreciation and running costs, sometimes 100% immediately and not have to keep a logbook of private travel.
Go Figgurre!
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

As many as they want. That is freedom of choice in a democracy.
That is why we are not driving Ladas.
Funnily enough it is Federal government policy that enables tradies to buy them by slapping a sign on the side claim depreciation and running costs, sometimes 100% immediately and not have to keep a logbook of private travel.
Go Figgurre!
Regards PhilipA[/COLOR]
See the problem with "as many as they want" is that while it is just fine in rural areas, there are issues with it in our cities. Our streets are lined with 4x4's and SUV's that no one can fit in their garage, and then there are the pedestrian fatalities, which have increased 50% since 2021.

While I'm sure everyone here drives carefully and doesn't run people over, if extrapolated on a whole population it does make a difference. Clearly it's a complex issue and our car choices aren't helping. People have accidents - it's just what it is. And if they are driving a larger vehicle the consequences are typically worse.


Yes, a 2025 study found that being hit by an SUV or similar large vehicle significantly increases the odds of a pedestrian being killed or seriously injured compared to smaller vehicles, raising the fatality risk by 44% for adults and 82% for children

Do sports utility vehicles (SUVs) and light truck vehicles (LTVs) cause more severe injuries to pedestrians and cyclists than passenger cars in the case of a crash? A systematic review and meta-analysis | Injury Prevention (https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/early/2025/04/11/ip-2024-045613)

And re instant asset write off...

SSSHHHH... Remember it's EV owners that are getting the free ride!

[DoubleChevron]

I'm pretty sure I get that you don't like EV's. Not that you really have any real understanding of what it's actually like to operate one. But sure.. whatever.

What we do need to do is enable people who are more logical to make good choices.

PS. How many dual cab utes per family is considered a good number for city dwellers?

No, you are wrong. I think EV's are awesome, I just don't like stupidity. And EVs are absolutely ridiculous for all the reasons already talked about here. How does this grab you .... I don't like twin cab utes. They are kinda crap at everything, kinda useful .... I'd rather just have a proper 4wd and nice passenger sedan that I like. Only crazy people like me that work on the own cars (or the very wealthy) can do this though.

What on earth do you mean we need to "enable' people to make good choices. You mean you wish to FORCE to buy what YOU think they should buy. How does NO ... not ever sound to you :firedevil:

I love this play on words. What cars do you wish to "enable" poeple to buy. Tell me, what do you think I should be forced to do? What you are suggesting is already being done, they are calling it "vehicle efficiency standard". But its just an EV mandate in disguise. It will not work, people will rebel, absolutely 100% guaranteed. Look at the top selling cars in australia people want. An EV that matches these requirements does not exist.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No, you are wrong. I think EV's are awesome, I just don't like stupidity. And EVs are absolutely ridiculous for all the reasons already talked about here. How does this grab you .... I don't like twin cab utes. They are kinda crap at everything, kinda useful .... I'd rather just have a proper 4wd and nice passenger sedan that I like. Only crazy people like me that work on the own cars (or the very wealthy) can do this though.

What on earth do you mean we need to "enable' people to make good choices. You mean you wish to FORCE to buy what YOU think they should buy. How does NO ... not ever sound to you :firedevil:

I love this play on words. What cars do you wish to "enable" poeple to buy. Tell me, what do you think I should be forced to do? What you are suggesting is already being done, they are calling it "vehicle efficiency standard". But its just an EV mandate in disguise. It will not work, people will rebel, absolutely 100% guaranteed. Look at the top selling cars in australia people want. An EV that matches these requirements does not exist.

It has been found that forcing people to do things doesn't end well. People don't like it.

But if you structure policy to encourage them to make the choices you want then that tends to have better results.

As far as I know there is not really any examples of people being "forced" to buy EV's in Australia. If you can find some - fire away.

The Australian Government believe they have a mandate to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and the transport sector accounts for 22% of our emissions. We need people to start choosing EV's when they buy a car. Or get people to drive cars which emit less carbon (not going well). Or somehow make people drive less.


The transport sector is currently our third largest emitter, accounting for around 22% of Australia's emissions.
Passenger cars and light commercial vehicles alone contributed 60% of our transport emissions and over 10% of Australia's total emissions.

Reducing transport emissions - DCCEEW (https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/transport)

[DoubleChevron]

It has been found that forcing people to do things doesn't end well. People don't like it.

But if you structure policy to encourage them to make the choices you want then that tends to have better results.

As far as I know there is not really any examples of people being "forced" to buy EV's in Australia. If you can find some - fire away.

The Australian Government believe they have a mandate to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and the transport sector accounts for 22% of our emissions. We need people to start choosing EV's when they buy a car. Or get people to drive cars which emit less carbon (not going well). Or somehow make people drive less.



Reducing transport emissions - DCCEEW (https://www.dcceew.gov.au/energy/transport)

Yes, and there stupidity will be ignore by all but the brain washed. Now you just touched on the other obvious thing EV's do, they are trying to take cars out of the hands of poor poeple. So "make people other than me drive less". You are doing a very good job telling us what WE should do is a way that sounds like you're not.
ie:

do what we say
buy what we say
you don't need a car
if you can somehow afford one, you must buy the one we tell you
If I put luny net zero here, our expectation is you will be living in a cave with no power or heating and be happy for it as you are saving the planet.


This is one of the most fascinating talks I've seen on EVs .... I know you won't watch it as net zero/ev evangelists refuse to even listen to anything that will not match there beliefs. However this isn't anti EV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Nz-4eEBTw&pp=ygUVaGlsbHNkYWxlIGNvbGxlZ2UgZXYg

It is really fascinating. I had no idea the horse and cart was so expensive.

[Tombie]

I'm still waiting for this cohorts position on filling our cars with Russian crude that was shipped to India in "shadow tankers" and refined there.

Does that make us happy?

Does having a supply chain that only has a few weeks reserve cause any twinges of concern? Any inkling that maybe lessening our reliance on that wouldn't be a bad thing?

We have even less capacity for electricity.
Plenty of coal - nowhere to use it
Plenty of gas - limited gas turbines

Yes, some owners of PV will be self sufficient.

Won't matter regardless, all supply chains rely on trucks, rail, shipping - none of that is electric. Electric couldn't keep up with that level of demand regardless once the big generators stop.

Shadow tankers - not a nice concept, but neither is the sourcing of components for battery systems, electronics etc. all done unethically.


Australia has everything it needs to be a mega player, and self sufficient. It's minority groups and weak policy that prevent us from using our own resources for our own people.


As for policy to move people to what you consider the ?right? solution - there's a word for that; coercion.


And, anyway? Dual Cab utes? no bigger footprint than a Commodore or Falcon has.
Can't comfortably use a tiny car for anything other than a few occupants - a family with kids doing sports certainly struggle without a mid/large size vehicle.

This one's been done to death - the Dual Cabs, SUVs, Prados, Klugers, etc are nothing but an elevated family wagon.

Tesla 3
4,720 x 1,933 (folded mirrors) x 1,441 (1,835kg)

Hilux 2025
5,320 x 1,855 x 1,750 (2,135kg)
*600mm longer, 78mm narrower and just 311mm taller and only 300kg heavier.

Tesla Model X
5,036 x 2,271 x 1,684 (2,445kg)


Not such a big difference, in fact, in a car park the Hilux would be easier to get in and out of as it's not occupying the width of the park as much!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

We have even less capacity for electricity.
Plenty of coal - nowhere to use it
Plenty of gas - limited gas turbines

Yes, some owners of PV will be self sufficient.

Won't matter regardless, all supply chains rely on trucks, rail, shipping - none of that is electric. Electric couldn't keep up with that level of demand regardless once the big generators stop.

Shadow tankers - not a nice concept, but neither is the sourcing of components for battery systems, electronics etc. all done unethically.


Australia has everything it needs to be a mega player, and self sufficient. It's minority groups and weak policy that prevent us from using our own resources for our own people.


As for policy to move people to what you consider the ?right? solution - there's a word for that; coercion.


And, anyway? Dual Cab utes? no bigger footprint than a Commodore or Falcon has.
Can't comfortably use a tiny car for anything other than a few occupants - a family with kids doing sports certainly struggle without a mid/large size vehicle.

This one's been done to death - the Dual Cabs, SUVs, Prados, Klugers, etc are nothing but an elevated family wagon.

Tesla 3
4,720 x 1,933 (folded mirrors) x 1,441 (1,835kg)

Hilux 2025
5,320 x 1,855 x 1,750 (2,135kg)
*600mm longer, 78mm narrower and just 311mm taller and only 300kg heavier.

Tesla Model X
5,036 x 2,271 x 1,684 (2,445kg)


Not such a big difference, in fact, in a car park the Hilux would be easier to get in and out of as it's not occupying the width of the park as much!
I'm struggling with this. Over 80% of our fuel is imported. 100% of our electricity is manufactured domestically.

Doesn't that worry you even a little?

Are you ok with Russian oil?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, and there stupidity will be ignore by all but the brain washed. Now you just touched on the other obvious thing EV's do, they are trying to take cars out of the hands of poor poeple. So "make people other than me drive less". You are doing a very good job telling us what WE should do is a way that sounds like you're not.
ie:

do what we say
buy what we say
you don't need a car
if you can somehow afford one, you must buy the one we tell you
If I put luny net zero here, our expectation is you will be living in a cave with no power or heating and be happy for it as you are saving the planet.


This is one of the most fascinating talks I've seen on EVs .... I know you won't watch it as net zero/ev evangelists refuse to even listen to anything that will not match there beliefs. However this isn't anti EV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Nz-4eEBTw&pp=ygUVaGlsbHNkYWxlIGNvbGxlZ2UgZXYg

It is really fascinating. I had no idea the horse and cart was so expensive.
Aaah.. we don't have EV mandates in Australia.

[Tombie]

Aaah.. we don't have EV mandates in Australia.

No, we have coercive taxes on vehicles that aren't EV [emoji3]

[Tombie]

I'm struggling with this. Over 80% of our fuel is imported. 100% of our electricity is manufactured domestically.

Doesn't that worry you even a little?

Are you ok with Russian oil?

Again? how is that 100% electricity supply fed?

Gas - ships
Coal - rail / ships


Am I worried about Russian Oil? Not in the slightest? A Bloke is violently Arguing with another Bloke who violently disagrees with an agreement that was supposed to be met.

I'm also Ok with Chinese made consumer products, many of which are manufactured in Sweat Shop style industrial complexes and take advantage of poor working conditions for the benefit of Western society.

I'm also ok with Chinese tech in EVs which can contain subversive software or hardware.

I'm also ok with OTA updates which of course allows reverse hacking.

I'm also OK with populations being harmed to mine Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel, Iron etc to make nice batteries.

I'm ok with big corporations dictating what small nations do with their resources.

I'm ok with government over reach, and government overspending on futile endeavours.

And I'm ok with you liking your EV

[RANDLOVER]

As many as they want. That is freedom of choice in a democracy.
That is why we are not driving Ladas.
Funnily enough it is Federal government policy that enables tradies to buy them by slapping a sign on the side claim depreciation and running costs, sometimes 100% immediately and not have to keep a logbook of private travel.
Go Figgurre!
Regards PhilipA[/COLOR]

I refer you to minute 10 of this video...Stupidity that knows no bounds. (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/302439-stupidity-knows-no-bounds.html).....please note I did not choose the title.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No, we have coercive taxes on vehicles that aren't EV [emoji3]
Unless we're giving traides even bigger tax breaks to buy dual cab utes. I guess that's ok.

Luxury ute tax loophole costs Australians $250m a year, researchers say | Transport | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jul/22/luxury-ute-tax-loophole-emissions-reductions-evs-taxpayers)

[DoubleChevron]

Aaah.. we don't have EV mandates in Australia.

Want to bet? What do you think the new "emissions standard" are... An EV mandate in disguise. The ACT had an EV mandate, but I think that has been watered down as it was utterly stupid nonsense. You can't mandate something in canberra ... even the nutters full of hot air there must have realised poeple will just drive down the road to sydney and buy what they want there.

You didn't watch the video right? It's very interesting, EV mandates are only a small part of it. The cost of moving energy via power lines is something I was sure was the cheapest way to move energy.... But far from it.

[Tombie]

Unless we're giving traides even bigger tax breaks to buy dual cab utes. I guess that's ok.

Luxury ute tax loophole costs Australians $250m a year, researchers say | Transport | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jul/22/luxury-ute-tax-loophole-emissions-reductions-evs-taxpayers)

Sorry nope! **** LCT - it should have been abolished as soon as local manufacturing ended.


People don't choose a large Ram over a small car because it's a few $$$ cheaper, the inconvenience of moving around. Shopping, parking etc makes them painful at the best of times.

People buy them because they serve a purpose - towing a van or big trailer legally and arguably safer due to heavier mass and wheelbase.

That article openly says ?providing less incentive to get an EV (or more efficient vehicle)?

Well that again is coercion- just as LCT originally was - ?please buy a local ****box rather than a good import and support our industry? - which then, ironically funnelled a heap of tax free money overseas!

I don't have to pay LCT on my new tow vehicle either - it's a Truck, a real one, not a RAM etc.
I then have to register a truck, insure a truck, licence for a truck? the government gets its pound of flesh.

And the basic GST on $200k of truck should be enough.

But no, you promote coercive taxes, socialist laws and removal of freedoms. A slippery slope that is getting steeper every day as we become an over governed, over taxed, over regulated nation.

I take it you've never offered a cash deal for a better price, and always paid what the government is due (it's 10% on almost everything)??? I bet you have! Because nobody likes paying taxes - heck your EV is a subsidised tax break - and now the government are looking to plonk a tax on you and your fellow EV drivers because they aren't get fuel excise out of you.

Promoting this sort of muck as a good idea is boot licking behaviour. Every time we bend to these agendas the people pay the price.

Remember that bridge that had a toll, which was promised to be removed upon final payment? Or fuel levy on airline tickets just while the price is inflated? Or, let's circle back LCT to protect our domestic car makers?

Well, none of these have been revoked have they!

And now they want to tax my PV array for making power, which the big distributors then earn profits on.

Or how about an Emergency Services Levy every year? To cover the cost of those services? Yep, we have to pay that. Why isn't it just in the general tax pool? That's where these should be funded from?

And don't get me started on wind farm contracts with the property owners - they make a lot of money every year for the use of their land - but almost all the contracts then leave them (land holder) to remove them once the wind farm is outdated, leaving land full of concrete and rebar. All to be Green and get those subsidies to make the companies big profits quickly - almost all of which are sent offshore.

The UN and the WHO are two of the most corrupt organisations on earth, their agendas do not serve the average people of this planet. Their policies do not serve the greater good. They serve greater profit.

[Saitch]

The UN and the WHO are two of the most corrupt organisations on earth, their agendas do not serve the average people of this planet. Their policies do not serve the greater good. They serve greater profit.

This is the most relevant statement posted, in this discussion.

[RANDLOVER]

You've got the terminology correct, at least. "Act"!

You're right for some it is a local "act". My neighbours have a large "Climate Action Now" sign in their front window, however they both drive ICE cars, but his parents have one maybe two electric ones, so he might think he can claim credit for that. They have no solar, although they put in a small rain water tank, but I think that was for a vegetable garden that turned into weeds.

Not in my case as I have solar hot water, 5kW of solar power (has generated 100MW/h), a rainwater and grey water system. I've had the green bin pretty much since it started at least 10 years ago, and feel vindicated that Brisbane is rolling it out to all residents to prevent lawn clippings, leaves, branches, etc going in the red bins to landfill a total waste.

I wish some of these systems were larger, and that I'd thought of some of this before building began. I only put the solar hot water on the house when it was being built, because I asked my engineer mate what would be easier to install then rather than later.

[DoubleChevron]

You're right for some it is a local "act". My neighbours have a large "Climate Action Now" sign in their front window, however they both drive ICE cars, but his parents have one maybe two electric ones, so he might think he can claim credit for that. They have no solar, although they put in a small rain water tank, but I think that was for a vegetable garden that turned into weeds.

Not in my case as I have solar hot water, 5kW of solar power (has generated 100MW/h), a rainwater and grey water system. I've had the green bin pretty much since it started at least 10 years ago, and feel vindicated that Brisbane is rolling it out to all residents to prevent lawn clippings, leaves, branches, etc going in the red bins to landfill a total waste.

I wish some of these systems were larger, and that I'd thought of some of this before building began. I only put the solar hot water on the house when it was being built, because I asked my engineer mate what would be easier to install then rather than later.

So because you have more money to throw away and green stupidity, you are better?? Lets all cheer for you .. you are so much better than your neighbours :TakeABow:

[DoubleChevron]

I think we both agree an urban/metro application is the prime case for EVs.

Less exhaust in congested/built up environs is a good thing.



Beyond that? they are not a solution to the woes of our leaders who believe it will save the planet - they will be, if pushed to be the prime mode of propulsion, quite the opposite.

Watching the tech evolution is interesting as each company races to cash in (and that's the key drivers - industry and economic).

Either way, you cannot reduce emissions overall by wrecking areas of the planet, all whilst allowing ongoing population growth?


TLDR;

Even a very very simple example based on predicted human population growth shows we're on the wrong path:-

Assuming each human emits an average of 10% ?carbons?

Currently:
10% of 8.1 billion is 800 million ?carbons?

Back in 1985 when this sort of started
10% of 4.8 billion was 480 million ?carbons?

Based on predictions of 2050 population
9.7 billion we have 970 million ?carbons? to deal with.

That would require each human to reduce their footprint by 2% to 8%

Even then we still wouldn't reach parity as those extra 1.6 billion people will consume more industries and resources.

The proposed plan is a lot bigger than stifling industry all whilst increasing cost of living exponentially.

EVs cannot prevent this.


Any Person on the land will tell you, you don't over stock your resources. Else you decimate your land. The Earth is just a large ball of land, without attempts to manage it in a similar manner - the result of metaphorical over grazing - is inevitable.

Yikes!!!

No this won't happen. by 2050, we won't really care about the mighty $$$C02$$$ and how many $$$ we can con out of people to "save the world". The biggest issue facing man kind will be our birthrate. Each generation is having less kids, once we start down this path it isn't linear. The population will drop off a cliff face. If the first generation has less kids, and the following generation has slightly less kids again. Its not a straight line in population reduction. As the 2nd ... 3rd ... 4th generation has less people in the first instance also having less kids. It will be a terrifying time for them. everything will be about encouraging people to have children again.

We will care about the massively aging population. I've read we are probably close to "peak" population right now. As soon as countries are lifted out of poverty they stop having kids at replacement rate. So as the 3rd world can feed itself ... suddenly the world population will plummet. The only reason we have population growth in australia is immigration (same for every 1st world country).

Net Zero is just lunacy ... insanity. Most of these nutters don't even know how much C02 is even in the air. Ask the next brainwashed fruitloop that goes on with it. You will get an answer like "maybe 30% of air is C02". To save the net zero lunies looking it up, it is 0.039% of the air. The loony net zero targets are almost meaningless when you look at the percentage of difference they are talking.

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, and there stupidity will be ignore by all but the brain washed. Now you just touched on the other obvious thing EV's do, they are trying to take cars out of the hands of poor poeple. So "make people other than me drive less". You are doing a very good job telling us what WE should do is a way that sounds like you're not.
ie:

do what we say
buy what we say
you don't need a car
if you can somehow afford one, you must buy the one we tell you
If I put luny net zero here, our expectation is you will be living in a cave with no power or heating and be happy for it as you are saving the planet.


This is one of the most fascinating talks I've seen on EVs .... I know you won't watch it as net zero/ev evangelists refuse to even listen to anything that will not match there beliefs. However this isn't anti EV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Nz-4eEBTw&pp=ygUVaGlsbHNkYWxlIGNvbGxlZ2UgZXYg

It is really fascinating. I had no idea the horse and cart was so expensive.

Ok.. I watched the video. He's a good speaker that's for sure. I wouldn't want to end up in a debate with him.

But he said straight up "I used to be a mechanic.. I like gas cars.. I don't like EV's". There were lots of "facts" which were at best dubious, and at worst deliberately deceptive.

And as per much in this thread it was a lot of "That's all just @#$T .. I don't like it. It's not going to work". But there are no actual answers or alternative plans. In summary, haters gonna hate. It's a democracy, and in the current climate in the US I suspect he's angling for a job. We must remember this is about the US, not Australia.Personally I think what the previous administration was doing was really going the right way. The US is going to regret the decision to pull out of the race to manufacture green tech. Even if they do realise it - catching up is going to be hard.

We have this dude right here in Australia, who unlike your speaker has had a really good go at thinking about the problem and coming up with solutions. He was an advisor to the Biden administration, and many other cool academic things in this space.

This is an older video, and a short one (note I didn't give you a 1 h video!).

We need solutions not just "it's @#$@ and it won't help".


https://youtu.be/QfAXbGInwno'si=HnaevvWp5hiUuEJd

[RANDLOVER]

Making green tech is not the only money spinner, but having cheap energy from wind and solar is a massive economic advantage.

[vnx205]

I know that cars in the Challenger class in the Darwin to Adelaide World Solar Challenge are not practical vehicles, but the progress over the last decade or so is impressive.
The winning car averaged 86.6km/h. That is probably faster than I did in my Series III a couple of decades ago.

Bridgestone World Solar Challenge 2025 (https://worldsolarchallenge.org)

[Saitch]

I know that cars in the Challenger class in the Darwin to Adelaide World Solar Challenge are not practical vehicles, but the progress over the last decade or so is impressive.
The winning car averaged 86.6km/h. That is probably faster than I did in my Series III a couple of decades ago.

Bridgestone World Solar Challenge 2025 (https://worldsolarchallenge.org)

Yea, but you could do 50kmh at night.[biggrin]

[DoubleChevron]

Ok.. I watched the video. He's a good speaker that's for sure. I wouldn't want to end up in a debate with him.

But he said straight up "I used to be a mechanic.. I like gas cars.. I don't like EV's". There were lots of "facts" which were at best dubious, and at worst deliberately deceptive.

And as per much in this thread it was a lot of "That's all just @#$T .. I don't like it. It's not going to work". But there are no actual answers or alternative plans. In summary, haters gonna hate. It's a democracy, and in the current climate in the US I suspect he's angling for a job. We must remember this is about the US, not Australia.Personally I think what the previous administration was doing was really going the right way. The US is going to regret the decision to pull out of the race to manufacture green tech. Even if they do realise it - catching up is going to be hard.

We have this dude right here in Australia, who unlike your speaker has had a really good go at thinking about the problem and coming up with solutions. He was an advisor to the Biden administration, and many other cool academic things in this space.

This is an older video, and a short one (note I didn't give you a 1 h video!).

We need solutions not just "it's @#$@ and it won't help".


https://youtu.be/QfAXbGInwno'si=HnaevvWp5hiUuEJd

I don't think so. He appears to have spend years, decades studying this. He references studies to lookup in quite a few places. Like most, I don't think he is "anti" EV. He just has a brain, so doesn't want to see anything "forced" on people for no reason. I thought the cost of horses was fascinating. He would be right about the cost of electricity transmission lines. Interestingly, most of these types of people that are not green washed with stupidity, don't mention power generation. They seem to think that part can be done. Its the upgrading the existing power transmission infrastructure that is the insurmountable issue.

seeya
Shane L.

[Arapiles]

And don't get me started on wind farm contracts with the property owners - they make a lot of money every year for the use of their land - but almost all the contracts then leave them (land holder) to remove them once the wind farm is outdated, leaving land full of concrete and rebar. All to be Green and get those subsidies to make the companies big profits quickly - almost all of which are sent offshore.

Nope, all wind farm contracts require the operators to remediate the land at the end of the lease. And I have actually seen it proposed that the farmer might get to keep the wind turbines if they want to.

Wind farms aren't built to generate subsidies - they are subsidised but banks don't give billions of dollars to 30 year investments on the basis of some subsidies: they either meet FID or they don't proceed. What a lot of people don't get is the essential difference between a renewables facility and a gas or coal power station is that once the renewables are actually built the inputs are free - they're not subject to the vagaries of input prices changes in the way that gas and coal powered plants are. That's why renewables are wildlly cheaper than gas or coal and it's why no-one in this country is building new coal power plants, even when the Coalition promised subsidies to do so. Look up the term "stranded asset" - it's how coal plants were being described in the project finance literature even 20 years ago.

FYI, having a wind farm on your land increases its value, even with the infrastructure, the most significant of which (in terms of impact on farming activities) is the access tracks.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't think so. He appears to have spend years, decades studying this. He references studies to lookup in quite a few places. Like most, I don't think he is "anti" EV. He just has a brain, so doesn't want to see anything "forced" on people for no reason. I thought the cost of horses was fascinating. He would be right about the cost of electricity transmission lines. Interestingly, most of these types of people that are not green washed with stupidity, don't mention power generation. They seem to think that part can be done. Its the upgrading the existing power transmission infrastructure that is the insurmountable issue.

seeya
Shane L.
The cost of horses I don't see as relevant.

The cost of everything in the "old days" was insane compared to now. Everything cost so much. People didn't have much.

My family bought into a new brisbane suburb (6k from the CBD!) just after the war. Back then, it was uncommon to have a car. Our family were one of only two in the street with a car, and that was because my dad was a teacher and was "allowed" to have one because of his war service and teaching. He worked for what is now QUT and used to park on the riverbank before the freeway was there. He recalled the day the first student drove to uni and parked. It was a borderline scandal. "How did he get the money for that".

You could see it in the houses too. They were not built for car parking because people didn't have cars. It was improvised. But the time my house was built in the mid 60's car use was becoming more common so the houses were built with proper garages. Unfortunately, as the cars were not all SUV/4x4 the max height was 180-90. Which is why my street is lined with cars too big to fit in their garages.

Meanwhile now everyone has an ICE car. There is a rental across the street. The new tenants must be doing the share house thing. As far as I can tell there are up to 10 cars associated with that house. They've got two in the garage, four in the driveway, and another 4 or so spread out over the street parking. A car splosion I call it.

When your friend says "EV's are for the rich" this is to be expected for a new technology. Remember ICE cars were as well. In the last few years we've steadily seen EV's dropping in price. In the coming years you'll pay a premium for ICE, if you aren't already. ICE are only cheaper because of the manufacturing inertia. As this declines (component manufacturers drop out, factories have to be modernised) things will switch.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don't think so. He appears to have spend years, decades studying this. He references studies to lookup in quite a few places. Like most, I don't think he is "anti" EV. He just has a brain, so doesn't want to see anything "forced" on people for no reason. I thought the cost of horses was fascinating. He would be right about the cost of electricity transmission lines. Interestingly, most of these types of people that are not green washed with stupidity, don't mention power generation. They seem to think that part can be done. Its the upgrading the existing power transmission infrastructure that is the insurmountable issue.

seeya
Shane L.
Also, did you even notice the bit "We can calculate exactly how much co2 ICE generate, it's a direct chemical ratio". Which it is. But he then went onto talk about EV input emissions and completely glossed over all the co2 input that goes into finding the oil, digging it up, transporting it, refining it.. no mention of that. Not on the table.

They are all made with horrible child labour in third world countries. Utter rubbish!

At this juncture the bulk of battery cobalt goes into small electric batteries not cars. No one seems to be worrying about that when they buy their ryobi or iphone. Not that there is any cobalt in my car unless my phone is in there...

EDIT: That's one of the amazing things about anti EV people. They worry about the electricity they use, but don't care at all about the electricity used in anything else. AC's, pools, or any of the many frivolous uses we have for electricity. That's off the table. Not the disucssion. It's the energy you use in your EV. It will kill the grid don't you know!

[Arapiles]

Yes, and there stupidity will be ignore by all but the brain washed. Now you just touched on the other obvious thing EV's do, they are trying to take cars out of the hands of poor poeple. So "make people other than me drive less". You are doing a very good job telling us what WE should do is a way that sounds like you're not.
ie:

do what we say
buy what we say
you don't need a car
if you can somehow afford one, you must buy the one we tell you
If I put luny net zero here, our expectation is you will be living in a cave with no power or heating and be happy for it as you are saving the planet.


This is one of the most fascinating talks I've seen on EVs .... I know you won't watch it as net zero/ev evangelists refuse to even listen to anything that will not match there beliefs. However this isn't anti EV.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Nz-4eEBTw&pp=ygUVaGlsbHNkYWxlIGNvbGxlZ2UgZXYg

It is really fascinating. I had no idea the horse and cart was so expensive.


I've seen this game before. Most of the anti-climate change talking points were produced by the Heritage Foundation and were funded by US oil and gas companies. Similarly, this anti-EV stuff. The really serious issue is that by the time that the right-wing billionaires in the US stop pumping this luddite stuff out it'll be too late - it'll be China that completely owns the new industrial age. The blindness of so many people is beyond belief - China is fully committed to a carbon-free economy and they will OWN it, globally, within 20 years. At that point I doubt that there's any possibility of the US catching up, particularly not with the way that the current administration is cutting funding to renewables specifically and science generally.

[grey_ghost]

I've seen this game before. Most of the anti-climate change talking points were produced by the Heritage Foundation and were funded by US oil and gas companies. Similarly, this anti-EV stuff. The really serious issue is that by the time that the right-wing billionaires in the US stop pumping this luddite stuff out it'll be too late - it'll be China that completely owns the new industrial age. The blindness of so many people is beyond belief - China is fully committed to a carbon-free economy and they will OWN it, globally, within 20 years. At that point I doubt that there's any possibility of the US catching up, particularly not with the way that the current administration is cutting funding to renewables specifically and science generally.

Umm. How many coal power stations does China have? And are building currently? It's my understanding that it's in the hundreds. Hardly committed to a carbon free economy?

[RANDLOVER]

Due to China's population, they are doing everything, everywhere, all at once, so wind, solar, coal, methane bladders for farm waste, etc. Their per capita emissions are still lower than the US and us, and a lot of that's really other people's emissions, as they are the world's work shop.

[Arapiles]

Umm. How many coal power stations does China have? And are building currently? It's my understanding that it's in the hundreds. Hardly committed to a carbon free economy?

That claim - widely reported over the last decade as an anti-green talking point - is at best misleading. Although there have apparently been lots of new coal plants approved:

1. A lot of them aren't actually built: someone did an on-the-ground check a few years ago and found quite a few empty development sites. So, "approved" doesn't mean built;
2. The ones that are built don't operate at capacity;
3. The ones that are built aren't in the slightest bit financially viable;
4. There's more coal plants but despite that China is actually burning less coal;
5. Relevantly, it's the regions that are approving new coal plants, not the central government.

One of the ongoing tensions in China, dating back probably thousands of years, is that between the regions and the central government. The short answer is that the central Chinese government is pushing decarbonisation, solar, batteries and EVs and the regional governments are approving coal plants. Which if they're actually built probably aren't operating and if they are operating it's not all the time and most likely at a loss.

China puts coal on back burner as renewables soar – Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-puts-coal-on-back-burner-as-renewables-soar/)

China is building more coal plants but might burn less coal (https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants)

China Allows New Coal Plants, but With More Limited Role - Yale E360 (https://e360.yale.edu/digest/china-new-coal-plants-2027)

[Arapiles]

That claim - widely reported over the last decade as an anti-green talking point - is at best misleading. Although there have apparently been lots of new coal plants approved:

1. A lot of them aren't actually built: someone did an on-the-ground check a few years ago and found quite a few empty development sites. So, "approved" doesn't mean built;
2. The ones that are built don't operate at capacity;
3. The ones that are built aren't in the slightest bit financially viable;
4. There's more coal plants but despite that China is actually burning less coal;
5. Relevantly, it's the regions that are approving new coal plants, not the central government.

One of the ongoing tensions in China, dating back probably thousands of years, is that between the regions and the central government. The short answer is that the central Chinese government is pushing decarbonisation, solar, batteries and EVs and the regional governments are approving coal plants. Which if they're actually built probably aren't operating and if they are operating it's not all the time and most likely at a loss.

China puts coal on back burner as renewables soar ? Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (https://energyandcleanair.org/publication/china-puts-coal-on-back-burner-as-renewables-soar/)

China is building more coal plants but might burn less coal (https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants)

China Allows New Coal Plants, but With More Limited Role - Yale E360 (https://e360.yale.edu/digest/china-new-coal-plants-2027)

And then there's this: China's Co2 emissions are thought to be near peaking, or actually peaked, and will start declining earlier than expected;



If renewables continue to cut into coal generation then a peak in China's CO2 emissions ? pledged to happen before 2030 ? is on the horizon, if not already here.

[grey_ghost]

And then there's this: China's Co2 emissions are thought to be near peaking, or actually peaked, and will start declining earlier than expected;



If renewables continue to cut into coal generation then a peak in China's CO2 emissions ? pledged to happen before 2030 ? is on the horizon, if not already here.


Having worked in China.. All I can say is - I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.

[Arapiles]

Having worked in China.. All I can say is - I have a bridge that I would like to sell you.

I lived in the region for 10 years and advised China's main government project financier on about a dozen transactions, so I'd like to sell you the financing for a bridge.

[DieselLSE]

Tell me more about this bridge. Sounds interesting.

[DoubleChevron]

Also, did you even notice the bit "We can calculate exactly how much co2 ICE generate, it's a direct chemical ratio". Which it is. But he then went onto talk about EV input emissions and completely glossed over all the co2 input that goes into finding the oil, digging it up, transporting it, refining it.. no mention of that. Not on the table.


Of course, but what he is saying is factual. anything to do with oil is well known .... we have been doing it for well over 100years. Of course they know exactly what is involved in refining oil products. It doesn't even come close to mining the ground for minerals....




They are all made with horrible child labour in third world countries. Utter rubbish!

At this juncture the bulk of battery cobalt goes into small electric batteries not cars. No one seems to be worrying about that when they buy their ryobi or iphone. Not that there is any cobalt in my car unless my phone is in there...

EDIT: That's one of the amazing things about anti EV people. They worry about the electricity they use, but don't care at all about the electricity used in anything else. AC's, pools, or any of the many frivolous uses we have for electricity. That's off the table. Not the disucssion. It's the energy you use in your EV. It will kill the grid don't you know!

And the usual "change the subject to everyone is else evil too". Look ... over there .... trees burn too, its not just electric cars [bighmmm]

[DoubleChevron]

I've seen this game before. Most of the anti-climate change talking points were produced by the Heritage Foundation and were funded by US oil and gas companies. Similarly, this anti-EV stuff. The really serious issue is that by the time that the right-wing billionaires in the US stop pumping this luddite stuff out it'll be too late - it'll be China that completely owns the new industrial age. The blindness of so many people is beyond belief - China is fully committed to a carbon-free economy and they will OWN it, globally, within 20 years. At that point I doubt that there's any possibility of the US catching up, particularly not with the way that the current administration is cutting funding to renewables specifically and science generally.


Where does this moronic "ITS FUNDED BY OIL COMPANIES" lunacy come from. Do you think oil companies cares in the slightest about electric cars. Of course they don't. Why would they waste a cent on this [bighmmm] There business is growing massively at the same time as the electric trhow-aways are destroying the economies over the world. Why would they care. Now we rol out the "carbon free china economy" lunacy.

Just a moment... (https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/)

they are building coal powered power stations faster than ever in history. They don't give a crap about the environment. they would like the electric car to take off around the world as it will give them a strangle hold on the world economy. What you are say is utter lunacy. Where on earth did you get this from? mainstream media?

[Arapiles]

Tell me more about this bridge. Sounds interesting.

It's solar powered.

[Arapiles]

Where does this moronic "ITS FUNDED BY OIL COMPANIES" lunacy come from. Do you think oil companies cares in the slightest about electric cars. Of course they don't. Why would they waste a cent on this [bighmmm] There business is growing massively at the same time as the electric trhow-aways are destroying the economies over the world. Why would they care. Now we rol out the "carbon free china economy" lunacy.

Just a moment... (https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-construction-of-new-coal-power-plants-reached-10-year-high-in-2024/)

they are building coal powered power stations faster than ever in history. They don't give a crap about the environment. they would like the electric car to take off around the world as it will give them a strangle hold on the world economy. What you are say is utter lunacy. Where on earth did you get this from? mainstream media?


Maybe you should read the links I posted?

BTW, it's well-established that the US oil and gas companies funded climate change disinformation.

[DoubleChevron]

Maybe you should read the links I posted?

BTW, it's well-established that the US oil and gas companies funded climate change disinformation.

Really? I've had this nonsense stated at me lots of times within australia too. YOU ARE FALLING FOR THE OIL AND GAS MISSINFORMATION THAT IS EVERYWHERE ... The last nutter told me I was watching to much ... is it sky? news. Anti-EV stuff is in barely any mainstream media.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fossil-fuel-consumption-by-type.png

yeah, those poor oil companies ... I feel for them ...... With the oil consumption being reduced by electric cars [bigrolf][bigrolf] That's one of the nuttiest things I've read today. If the oil industry cared, they would be over in europe tyring to overthrow the nutty governments that are trying to mandate chinese electric throw-aways. why would they care in teh slightest about a few million electric throw-aways around the world that very few actually want.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Of course, but what he is saying is factual. anything to do with oil is well known .... we have been doing it for well over 100years. Of course they know exactly what is involved in refining oil products. It doesn't even come close to mining the ground for minerals....



And the usual "change the subject to everyone is else evil too". Look ... over there .... trees burn too, its not just electric cars [bighmmm]
So he didn't mention the climate impact of exploration, drilling, shipping, refining, shipping. Why is that?

He only counted the input costs of EV's, not ICE which he didn't even mention.

[RANDLOVER]

Even less likely to be mentioned is "fugitive emissions " in the oil and gas industry like in Darwin...Darwin methane leak '''covered up''' by gas companies and regulators - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-01/methane-leak-darwin-lng-plant-kept-secret-from-public/105692718)

[DoubleChevron]

So he didn't mention the climate impact of exploration, drilling, shipping, refining, shipping. Why is that?

He only counted the input costs of EV's, not ICE which he didn't even mention.

Of course, this is all well known, we have been doing this for literally over 100years. Don't forget all the horrific stuff the oil industry has tried to cover up either. I'm not "pro" oil ... I'm just anti-stupidity. and what we are doing at the moment is just nuts.

I'd love to remove oil from our lives. We would realistically end up living in caves and burning wood to heat/cook without oil. People don't seem to understand what "oil" means. The cloths on your back, the glasses you are wearing, the shoes on your feet, the roads and footpaths you use, the cars you drive .... everything in our lives we enjoy is because of oil... Madness right? Without it though, we would be living the lives the poeple lived hundreds of years ago. paupers desperately trying to survive.

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Of course, this is all well known, we have been doing this for literally over 100years. Don't forget all the horrific stuff the oil industry has tried to cover up either. I'm not "pro" oil ... I'm just anti-stupidity. and what we are doing at the moment is just nuts.

I'd love to remove oil from our lives. We would realistically end up living in caves and burning wood to heat/cook without oil. People don't seem to understand what "oil" means. The cloths on your back, the glasses you are wearing, the shoes on your feet, the roads and footpaths you use, the cars you drive .... everything in our lives we enjoy is because of oil... Madness right? Without it though, we would be living the lives the poeple lived hundreds of years ago. paupers desperately trying to survive.

seeya
Shane L.
Oil is very very useful stuff. Another reason why burning it to get 20% of it's energy for forward propulsion is insane.

We should be keeping it for things we absolutely can't electrify and manufacturing. Last time I checked, making plastic from coal is a bit convoluted.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Its great these fires are being reported on and talked about.. oh wait...

I mean the passengers would definitely have survived that.



https://youtube.com/shorts/EmyuOk0npdk'si=Lbdz4SfQ2jnb60F5

[prelude]

wow. I did not expect my "simple" contribution a while back to result in stoking up the fire underneath this debate so much :)


Perhaps in all the posts (this thread is up to almost 200 pages long by now!) all the pros? and cons have been lost in the discussion.


As a person that agrees with the venerable mr. Clarkson on EV's being soulless microwave ovens and chest freezers :) allow me to address captain rightfoot's and others concerns regarding 'security?, ?big oil? and ?environmental impact? as best I can.


My little proza will take them in order of importance where possible.


Let's start with security. The argument has been made (albeit perhaps briefly and strewn across a large range of previous posts) that anything chinese is basically not a good idea. I agree. The ccp does not have the best interests of any citizens in the world at heart, not even their own quite often it seems. In my opinion this means that anything produced in that country by companies that are mainly chinese owned should be avoided. Put tarifs on them (seems to be popular) ban them, whatever. Since 90% of the entire green agenda seems to be coming from china in on form or another, I see it as a real and present danger and thus should be stamped out. I am sorry of that inconveniences any persons EV dream. And yes, that also means a bunch of electronics in modern ICE vehicles no doubt.


All that talk of 'my PV system produces?? what it has actually produced is more capital in a communist country that has clearly stated in, IIRC, 1948 that it wants to be the world dominating power by 2048 and that is not a good thing. Of course, unless you bought your installation a long long time ago when the rest of the world was still producing this stuff. At least today where the discussion is taking place chances are you are not even able to buy non chinese products.


Mind you, I am not going into the quality debate right now, I think we can skip that and look at the underlying problems first.


The best choice, what a certain much maligned person on the america's is trying to achieve, would be to take back production of 'stuff? (whatever it may be) to your country or region or at the very least your global allies. If I look at the united states of europe, pardon me, the european union, what we SHOULD have done is push low cost labour towards the former eastern block countries that were now members of the EU. That way capital would have flowed into the coffers of the (let's say) Polish, we would have increased their standard of living AND after 20 years they would not go for world domination but be a ?1st world? country, adding to the coffers of the EU strengthening the west in general.


I am fairly certain this can and should (have been) done in down undah albeit in a different way no doubt due to your geography. In any case, in short, ?fuel? security is a valid argument, but I believe this (above) to be a far more important problem to be solved FIRST.


Then, big oil as it was used to be known and anti climate change etc. opinions. I agree, admit, concur that these things have existed and probably still do. I do wish to point out however that ?big oil? as a collective term has been at least complimented or is being replaced even by a new 'mafia? if you will allow me: ?big green?. This lobby is at least as pernicious, manipulative, etc. as its other ?big? older brother from which it has pretty much copied the rulebook. It is not about the environment, it's bout making money, lots of it and by any means. If truly done in the name of the environment I salute the Rory Sutherland types that have masterminded this propaganda machine. Mind you, I am not arguing there is NO good to come from ?big green? but the same can be said about ?big oil?, it too had and still has its merits.


Lastly the environment. This is the big one isn't it? Firstly I would like to take the stance that CO2 is not important for this part of my lengthy post. ie. I will ignore it for now and address it at the very end. Let us first get into the impact of resources and recycling. It is here where I have the most problems with the modern world and the so called ?green revolution?. To the best of my knowledge and research capabilities (ie. the most accurate and recent data I can find) it seems that most things ?green? are not too recyclable unfortunately. Let's take the following premise:


an ICE and EV vehicle are the same apart from their propulsion. The chassis, bodywork, controls, wheels, windows, pretty much everything is the same. From a recycling/environmental impact POV we can cross these off and only deal with two things (well three actually).




fuel/battery
engine/electric motor

The third being difference in weight but we'll glance over that and hand that over to the EV for free for now


Let's start with the easy part, the engine/electric motor. Both are made of mainly aluminium and steel these days which is pretty easy to recycle well. Sure the electric motor has copper but being a metal it will recycle just fine. Both have a degree of plastics involved but we?'ll call that largely even. The ICE is bigger perhaps, but I do not see this as a very big deal since the recycling of metal is so very near to 100% anyway. We can cross of the larger volume of metal in an ICE to the increased complexity of rare earth magnets in the electric motor I guess.


Of course the fuel tank of a modern ICE vehicle is no longer made of steel but plastic so there is that. I would like to see them use metal again but hey. The battery, the big point of course, however is not as recyclable as far as I can find the best self reported figures (thus I do take em with a grain of salt) are 95% but real world figures seem to be closer to 80%. In comparison a lead acid battery is recycled up to 99%. I will skip a whole books worth of text in itself about how the processes work and what is recycled and what not since this post is going to big big enough as it is but it boils down to this: recovery of complex chemicals and plastics. This process is not free and acid leeching and other processes are not exactly environmentally friendly and energy intensive.


What you end up with in the end is a 'sludge? of questionable chemical stability and impact that is simply not economically viable to further refine or not even possible. This brings me neatly to my problem with the modern world: we are creating more and more ?green? options that in the end are just not that green. To simplify it by a lot, all 3 major green pushes of this moment have the same sludge problem. Solar panels are very recyclable, up to a point. Sure the metal frame and the glass panel are easy to do but the doped silicon wafers do have a limit as to where we can extract the silicon and separate the chemicals. Yet we have put uncountable millions of tons of the things everywhere. The same goes for LED lights, even more so I would argue, since the darn things are so small. (and thus more difficult to recycle)


So, no. I am sorry but ?green? is not what I would call any of these initiatives. We are creating rivers of chemical sludge and digging up the entire planet to get to them.


Let's put this into perspective, the best recyclable battery is lead acid. Sure it is heavier and lasts less but we could have all been driving milk floats decades ago! The same goes for lighting, the best recyclable light is the incandescent lightbulb, after all it is a piece of glass, some metal and a vacuum? Crush the darn thing, and melt down it's constituent parts. I mean, with all that green energy it would not be a problem that they are less efficient right?


So. I guess it is time to address that proverbial elephant in the room. CO2. According to some it is the end of the world (and not even as we know it but end period.) and to others it is plant food. I guess the truth is somewhere in between those two points (and I do not mean the middle). I find it fascinating to see that we make a HUGE problem out of it in some circles but we seem to refuse to actually fix it, and with that I do not mean go the entire green road we have discussed above. I know it is simplified but we are able to extract CO2 from the atmosphere if we want to and we can then either use it or put it back under ground. Sure it is very expensive but I wonder what is more expensive in the end? Let us expand that and put it like this: if climate change mitigation (sea level rise whatever) is going to cost the world trillions, is that not cheaper than what we are doing now? Would simply recycling CO2 into synthetic fuel not be at least as efficient?


Ah well, I think this post is long enough for now :)


Cheers,
-P

[DoubleChevron]

wow. I did not expect my "simple" contribution a while back to result in stoking up the fire underneath this debate so much :)


Perhaps in all the posts (this thread is up to almost 200 pages long by now!) all the pros? and cons have been lost in the discussion.


As a person that agrees with the venerable mr. Clarkson on EV's being soulless microwave ovens and chest freezers :) allow me to address captain rightfoot's and others concerns regarding 'security?, ?big oil? and ?environmental impact? as best I can.


My little proza will take them in order of importance where possible.


Let's start with security. The argument has been made (albeit perhaps briefly and strewn across a large range of previous posts) that anything chinese is basically not a good idea. I agree. The ccp does not have the best interests of any citizens in the world at heart, not even their own quite often it seems. In my opinion this means that anything produced in that country by companies that are mainly chinese owned should be avoided. Put tarifs on them (seems to be popular) ban them, whatever. Since 90% of the entire green agenda seems to be coming from china in on form or another, I see it as a real and present danger and thus should be stamped out. I am sorry of that inconveniences any persons EV dream. And yes, that also means a bunch of electronics in modern ICE vehicles no doubt.


All that talk of 'my PV system produces?? what it has actually produced is more capital in a communist country that has clearly stated in, IIRC, 1948 that it wants to be the world dominating power by 2048 and that is not a good thing. Of course, unless you bought your installation a long long time ago when the rest of the world was still producing this stuff. At least today where the discussion is taking place chances are you are not even able to buy non chinese products.


Mind you, I am not going into the quality debate right now, I think we can skip that and look at the underlying problems first.


The best choice, what a certain much maligned person on the america's is trying to achieve, would be to take back production of 'stuff? (whatever it may be) to your country or region or at the very least your global allies. If I look at the united states of europe, pardon me, the european union, what we SHOULD have done is push low cost labour towards the former eastern block countries that were now members of the EU. That way capital would have flowed into the coffers of the (let's say) Polish, we would have increased their standard of living AND after 20 years they would not go for world domination but be a ?1st world? country, adding to the coffers of the EU strengthening the west in general.


I am fairly certain this can and should (have been) done in down undah albeit in a different way no doubt due to your geography. In any case, in short, ?fuel? security is a valid argument, but I believe this (above) to be a far more important problem to be solved FIRST.


Then, big oil as it was used to be known and anti climate change etc. opinions. I agree, admit, concur that these things have existed and probably still do. I do wish to point out however that ?big oil? as a collective term has been at least complimented or is being replaced even by a new 'mafia? if you will allow me: ?big green?. This lobby is at least as pernicious, manipulative, etc. as its other ?big? older brother from which it has pretty much copied the rulebook. It is not about the environment, it's bout making money, lots of it and by any means. If truly done in the name of the environment I salute the Rory Sutherland types that have masterminded this propaganda machine. Mind you, I am not arguing there is NO good to come from ?big green? but the same can be said about ?big oil?, it too had and still has its merits.


Lastly the environment. This is the big one isn't it? Firstly I would like to take the stance that CO2 is not important for this part of my lengthy post. ie. I will ignore it for now and address it at the very end. Let us first get into the impact of resources and recycling. It is here where I have the most problems with the modern world and the so called ?green revolution?. To the best of my knowledge and research capabilities (ie. the most accurate and recent data I can find) it seems that most things ?green? are not too recyclable unfortunately. Let's take the following premise:


an ICE and EV vehicle are the same apart from their propulsion. The chassis, bodywork, controls, wheels, windows, pretty much everything is the same. From a recycling/environmental impact POV we can cross these off and only deal with two things (well three actually).




fuel/battery
engine/electric motor

The third being difference in weight but we'll glance over that and hand that over to the EV for free for now


Let's start with the easy part, the engine/electric motor. Both are made of mainly aluminium and steel these days which is pretty easy to recycle well. Sure the electric motor has copper but being a metal it will recycle just fine. Both have a degree of plastics involved but we?'ll call that largely even. The ICE is bigger perhaps, but I do not see this as a very big deal since the recycling of metal is so very near to 100% anyway. We can cross of the larger volume of metal in an ICE to the increased complexity of rare earth magnets in the electric motor I guess.


Of course the fuel tank of a modern ICE vehicle is no longer made of steel but plastic so there is that. I would like to see them use metal again but hey. The battery, the big point of course, however is not as recyclable as far as I can find the best self reported figures (thus I do take em with a grain of salt) are 95% but real world figures seem to be closer to 80%. In comparison a lead acid battery is recycled up to 99%. I will skip a whole books worth of text in itself about how the processes work and what is recycled and what not since this post is going to big big enough as it is but it boils down to this: recovery of complex chemicals and plastics. This process is not free and acid leeching and other processes are not exactly environmentally friendly and energy intensive.


What you end up with in the end is a 'sludge? of questionable chemical stability and impact that is simply not economically viable to further refine or not even possible. This brings me neatly to my problem with the modern world: we are creating more and more ?green? options that in the end are just not that green. To simplify it by a lot, all 3 major green pushes of this moment have the same sludge problem. Solar panels are very recyclable, up to a point. Sure the metal frame and the glass panel are easy to do but the doped silicon wafers do have a limit as to where we can extract the silicon and separate the chemicals. Yet we have put uncountable millions of tons of the things everywhere. The same goes for LED lights, even more so I would argue, since the darn things are so small. (and thus more difficult to recycle)


So, no. I am sorry but ?green? is not what I would call any of these initiatives. We are creating rivers of chemical sludge and digging up the entire planet to get to them.


Let's put this into perspective, the best recyclable battery is lead acid. Sure it is heavier and lasts less but we could have all been driving milk floats decades ago! The same goes for lighting, the best recyclable light is the incandescent lightbulb, after all it is a piece of glass, some metal and a vacuum? Crush the darn thing, and melt down it's constituent parts. I mean, with all that green energy it would not be a problem that they are less efficient right?


So. I guess it is time to address that proverbial elephant in the room. CO2. According to some it is the end of the world (and not even as we know it but end period.) and to others it is plant food. I guess the truth is somewhere in between those two points (and I do not mean the middle). I find it fascinating to see that we make a HUGE problem out of it in some circles but we seem to refuse to actually fix it, and with that I do not mean go the entire green road we have discussed above. I know it is simplified but we are able to extract CO2 from the atmosphere if we want to and we can then either use it or put it back under ground. Sure it is very expensive but I wonder what is more expensive in the end? Let us expand that and put it like this: if climate change mitigation (sea level rise whatever) is going to cost the world trillions, is that not cheaper than what we are doing now? Would simply recycling CO2 into synthetic fuel not be at least as efficient?


Ah well, I think this post is long enough for now :)


Cheers,
-P

The batteries can be recycled. there was a few really good posts ... I think it was earlier in this thread. The only data you really find on it is fluff videos about making the "black sludge". The further processing this requires is obviously either very expensive and toxic .... or very energy consuming. I imagine "all of the above" is the correct answer. As there is no mention of it being processed commercially anywhere in the world (maybe I just suck at using google though).

Now these recycling plants... in theory are good, in practice burn down like clockwork. I'd rather have a nuclear power station in my backyard than a lithium battery facility of any description. Apparently ... these car giant batteries are "going to all be recyled". Just believe us, it will just happen [bigrolf] I'm pretty sure they will all just get burried as its the only safe option we will have.

If you read the last dozen pages, it really highlights the utter absurdity of the "pro ev" ... "pro net zero" action. I would compare it to a religious cult. You just change the topic, change the way the "thing" being discussed it stated so you can scream "see ... we are better".

I think EV's are fascinating, they just are not the future, they are a stepping stone our grandchildren will no doubt be suffering through the flow on enormous environment impacts of. How the hell are they going to handle even the millions of giant batteries that already exist today ... Maybe fill old mineshafts with them an cap the mineshafts off?

I don't belive the nonsense about china ... sure the EV's maybe spying on anyone near the car .... but so will every other car (not just the EV's). Now look at it from this perspective. If there is 100 million of the cars made.... Just imagine the crap downloaded and stored across a million "spy cars". it would be all but impossible to find anything useful amongst all the endless general chatter. It would be like searching for an single mosquitio in a country the size of australia (rather than a needle in a haystack).

There is nothing wrong with EV's, we should not be mandating them in any way, or gifting the low/low middle tax dollars to the wealthy to subsidise them. also there infrastructure should be 100% privately funded. There should be zero ... absolutely no tax dollars going toward EV's or the infractructure. This generation needs housing, not there tax dollars gifted to the wealthy. The poorer sections of the community need cheaper power, not more expensive power because we are madly spending billions on the power industry without builidng proper power stations that will last generations and generate power regardless of envionmental conditions.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There is nothing wrong with EV's, we should not be mandating them in any way, or gifting the low/low middle tax dollars to the wealthy to subsidise them. also there infrastructure should be 100% privately funded. There should be zero ... absolutely no tax dollars going toward EV's or the infractructure. This generation needs housing, not there tax dollars gifted to the wealthy. The poorer sections of the community need cheaper power, not more expensive power because we are madly spending billions on the power industry without builidng proper power stations that will last generations and generate power regardless of envionmental conditions.

And again this thread... crazy. Totally denying the subsidies to ICE cars. Like instant asset depreciation so the tradies can get a new raptor or ram to tow their van. That's. ok. The housing crisis has been brewing for a quarter of a decade, but let's blame it on EV's.

This thread just goes around and around. If there is a good point on EV's we jump to "they will make everything catch fire".

Mate.. it's just a car with a (bigger) battery.

[DoubleChevron]

And again this thread... crazy. Totally denying the subsidies to ICE cars. Like instant asset depreciation so the tradies can get a new raptor or ram to tow their van. That's. ok. The housing crisis has been brewing for a quarter of a decade, but let's blame it on EV's.

This thread just goes around and around. If there is a good point on EV's we jump to "they will make everything catch fire".

Mate.. it's just a car with a (bigger) battery.

See what I mean, change the subject. Where did I say anything about EV's causing a housing crisis? I said, we should not be helping the wealthy (ie: anyone that can afford a brand new car) by gifting or subsidising the purchase of EVs. If we do this, we are taking the tax $$ of the lower to middle class, and gifting it to the wealthy.

I am sure there is tradies that buy a new ram to "tow the caravan". You would be talking the tiny minority, every scheme gets looted in some way. You can't compare business writeoffs that are helping build this countries housing and infrastructure to gifting tax dollars to the wealthy to subsidise a new shiny throw-away toy. An EV is not a work vehicle by any stretch of the imagination.... Unless maybe we bring back milk floats deliverying milk locally each morning. They could be electric.

How about talking about the points I've made rather than twisting and changing what has been said. I don't "blame" EVs for anything. Its a free country, people should be free to by whatever vehicle they please without government intervention.

I have no idea what will help the housing market or environment, but I am absolutely certain what we are doing is NOT helping either... its just throwing away tax payers $$$ that should be spent elsewhere (or not spent at all, we are gifting our kids and grandkids massives debts the country may never be able to pay off).

[NavyDiver]

And again this thread... crazy. Totally denying the subsidies to ICE cars. Like instant asset depreciation so the tradies can get a new raptor or ram to tow their van. That's. ok. The housing crisis has been brewing for a quarter of a decade, but let's blame it on EV's.

This thread just goes around and around. If there is a good point on EV's we jump to "they will make everything catch fire".

Mate.. it's just a car with a (bigger) battery.

Shhh I am buying a 30 Kwh battery for home at the moment. Not paying the full amount myself [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin].


On EVs my soulless blue non tow tug, non 4wd type newer one is over 65000km now, still on its first service [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[DoubleChevron]

Shhh I am buying a 30 Kwh battery for home at the moment. Not paying the full amount myself [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin].


On EVs my soulless blue non tow tug, non 4wd type newer one is over 65000km now, still on its first service [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Yes, I know, I have taken advantage of every hot water service and solar panel scheme too. But the reality is all of these "grants" are taking tax payer money and gifting it to the wealthy that can afford housing.

I'll be most keen to here how the EV is doing if you still own it at 5 -> 8 years old. I have nothing against them and think they are fascinating. We just shouldn't be mandating or using tax payers $$$ for help people buy them.

[NavyDiver]

Yes, I know, I have taken advantage of every hot water service and solar panel scheme too. But the reality is all of these "grants" are taking tax payer money and gifting it to the wealthy that can afford housing.

I'll be most keen to here how the EV is doing if you still own it at 5 -> 8 years old. I have nothing against them and think they are fascinating. We just shouldn't be mandating or using tax payers $$$ for help people buy them.

No subsidies for my EV. Add new road user tax likely as well [bigrolf][bigrolf]

I keep considering battery life as a factor worth looking at. Note a lot of OFF GRID types buy old Electric forklift wet cell old school that had a much higher failure rate and are still using the lower capacity they have years after others swapped them out. Off Grid types were starting to play with crashed written off EV batteries as well. That thought had crossed my mind as well given the hundreds of cells in most EVs. Not being a smart sparky type put me off that idea.

My first EV is still running about with a new owner who has not been grumpy with the dealer that sold it again after I traded it in. It is over 5 years old now. (MGXSev). It's a city type that brought it so its yearly amount of travel has dropped a lot now.

I am not an expert of course.

[DoubleChevron]

No subsidies for my EV. Add new road user tax likely as well [bigrolf][bigrolf]

I keep considering battery life as a factor worth looking at. Note a lot of OFF GRID types buy old Electric forklift wet cell old school that had a much higher failure rate and are still using the lower capacity they have years after others swapped them out. Off Grid types were starting to play with crashed written off EV batteries as well. That thought had crossed my mind as well given the hundreds of cells in most EVs. Not being a smart sparky type put me off that idea.

My first EV is still running about with a new owner who has not been grumpy with the dealer that sold it again after I traded it in. It is over 5 years old now. (MGXSev). It's a city type that brought it so its yearly amount of travel has dropped a lot now.

I am not an expert of course.

I noticed the old battery forklifts were near free to get rid of them years ago. A quick google of the cost of batteries to get them working will show you why :( .... I like your idea of repowering them given the surplus of lithium batteries we will no doubt end up with from damaged/written off EVs. Its all above my pay grade though. You need to be extraordinarily careful not to torch them off. Or even better, you fidn the EV's that don't have cells that can go into thermal run-away and use those ones.


https://youtu.be/60LEo0Rwpp8

This guys videos are really good. I've only seen a couple of them, but he explains really well what you need to do in order to safely charge the batteries.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I noticed the old battery forklifts were near free to get rid of them years ago. A quick google of the cost of batteries to get them working will show you why :( .... I like your idea of repowering them given the surplus of lithium batteries we will no doubt end up with from damaged/written off EVs. Its all above my pay grade though. You need to be extraordinarily careful not to torch them off. Or even better, you fidn the EV's that don't have cells that can go into thermal run-away and use those ones.


https://youtu.be/60LEo0Rwpp8

This guys videos are really good. I've only seen a couple of them, but he explains really well what you need to do in order to safely charge the batteries.
This is what I've been saying all along. LIFPO4 is very very safe. My car is LIFPO4. The aux battery in the Defender is LIFPO4.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

See what I mean, change the subject. Where did I say anything about EV's causing a housing crisis? I said, we should not be helping the wealthy (ie: anyone that can afford a brand new car) by gifting or subsidising the purchase of EVs. If we do this, we are taking the tax $$ of the lower to middle class, and gifting it to the wealthy.

I am sure there is tradies that buy a new ram to "tow the caravan". You would be talking the tiny minority, every scheme gets looted in some way. You can't compare business writeoffs that are helping build this countries housing and infrastructure to gifting tax dollars to the wealthy to subsidise a new shiny throw-away toy. An EV is not a work vehicle by any stretch of the imagination.... Unless maybe we bring back milk floats deliverying milk locally each morning. They could be electric.

How about talking about the points I've made rather than twisting and changing what has been said. I don't "blame" EVs for anything. Its a free country, people should be free to by whatever vehicle they please without government intervention.

I have no idea what will help the housing market or environment, but I am absolutely certain what we are doing is NOT helping either... its just throwing away tax payers $$$ that should be spent elsewhere (or not spent at all, we are gifting our kids and grandkids massives debts the country may never be able to pay off).

Frankly.. I've not really sure what your argument is. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your statement.



There is nothing wrong with EV's, we should not be mandating them in any way, or gifting the low/low middle tax dollars to the wealthy to subsidise them. also there infrastructure should be 100% privately funded. There should be zero ... absolutely no tax dollars going toward EV's or the infractructure. This generation needs housing, not there tax dollars gifted to the wealthy. The poorer sections of the community need cheaper power, not more expensive power because we are madly spending billions on the power industry without builidng proper power stations that will last generations and generate power regardless of envionmental conditions.

[prelude]

And again this thread... crazy. Totally denying the subsidies to ICE cars. Like instant asset depreciation so the tradies can get a new raptor or ram to tow their van. That's. ok. The housing crisis has been brewing for a quarter of a decade, but let's blame it on EV's.

This thread just goes around and around. If there is a good point on EV's we jump to "they will make everything catch fire".

Mate.. it's just a car with a (bigger) battery.

Yes, crazy this thread. I post a very lengthy entry which goes into your concerns and you simply skip it to banter on with mr doublechevron here. Funny that :)

-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, crazy this thread. I post a very lengthy entry which goes into your concerns and you simply skip it to banter on with mr doublechevron here. Funny that :)

-P
I appreciate the time you took to write it up. I do think we would enjoy a beer sometime. Concise is important for me. I lack the time to deal with general ramblings. :D:D

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I guess that Rav 4 won't make it to 25 years old.


House fire that started in Toyota RAV4 destroys family's home in southwest SydneyNeighbours rushed to help after hearing a loud bang come from the hybrid car as flames engulfed the front of the house.

House fire that started in Toyota RAV4 destroys family’s home in southwest Sydney | 7NEWS (https://7news.com.au/news/house-fire-that-started-in-toyota-rav4-destroys-familys-home-in-southwest-sydney-c-19923417)

[DoubleChevron]

I guess that Rav 4 won't make it to 25 years old.



House fire that started in Toyota RAV4 destroys family’s home in southwest Sydney | 7NEWS (https://7news.com.au/news/house-fire-that-started-in-toyota-rav4-destroys-familys-home-in-southwest-sydney-c-19923417)

That one sounds like the battery burned.... I think we need to be really careful not to blame fires on batteries where they take no part in it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8ILjqpUS2g

This is the first time I've ever heard this guy say something that does not seem right to me. Those fires don't look hot enough to involve batteries. I guess its possible they are using lithium batteries that do not go into thermal run-away ( any battery can still burn, its just hte thermal run-away bit that can melt concrete and take out buildings and ships that is a problem).

[Saitch]

Couldn't find a suitable thread to put the below pic in, so starting a new one that anything EV related can go in.


Well, my dear Homestar! This thread is now over four years old. Did you ever envisage the amount of robust discussion that has taken place? [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]


(Or was it a cunning plan?) [bigrolf]

[V8Ian]

Where is Homestar?

[Saitch]

Where is Homestar?

Doing his best Ray Martin in Current Affairs.?

[V8Ian]

Doing his best Ray Martin in Current Affairs.?
Ray or Frank Warwick?

[Tins]

Hasn’t popped up for a while. Even in CA.

[RANDLOVER]

I like to think that he has changed his appearance and is guiltily touring Australia in an EV.[bigrolf]

[Tins]

I like to think that he has changed his appearance and is guiltily touring Australia in an EV.[bigrolf]
If true he’s probably stuck somewhere waiting for the RAC to come from somewhere thousands of Ks away with a diesel powered charger. ?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That one sounds like the battery burned.... I think we need to be really careful not to blame fires on batteries where they take no part in it.

.
Where is your evidence for that? There is no indication at all in the article that hints at the battery being the cause. Given the car we know it's not a phev, so the battery would have been at rest. Toyota would have a mighty big recall if all their hybrid batteries start spontaneously combusting when parked. I suspect you think it's the battery that caused it because of your cognitive bias about battery fires.

My friend own's a hyundai which was subject to this recall. They said something like "don't park it in the garage until it's been fixed" in the letter. 12v is enough to start other things burning. Maybe we should tell everyone to disconnect their battery when parked?

https://www.drive.com.au/news/investigation-into-hyundai-and-kia-recall-of-6-4-million-cars-due-to-fire-risk/

[101RRS]

Crikey, you lot carry on.

An EV i just another type of car, you choose the type of ICE car that suits your needs, ranging from smaller engined vehicles for around town to larger for interstate cruising, diesel vs petrol dependent on your needs. Same with one EV compared to another EV brand or EV compared to ICE.

If an EV does not suit your need dont buy one, if it does then buy one but stop carrying on.

[DoubleChevron]

Crikey, you lot carry on.

An EV i just another type of car, you choose the type of ICE car that suits your needs, ranging from smaller engined vehicles for around town to larger for interstate cruising, diesel vs petrol dependent on your needs. Same with one EV compared to another EV brand or EV compared to ICE.

If an EV does not suit your need dont buy one, if it does then buy one but stop carrying on.

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Forget the fact it is a car, the worry is the fact it is a mobile giant battery :)

[scarry]

If an EV does not suit your need dont buy one, if it does then buy one but stop carrying on.

Your forgetting one thing,they are trying to force them on us no matter what we want or what our needs are.

Anyway,that is a topic for CA.

[Tins]

Anyway,that is a topic for CA.
Shouldn’t be, but the reasons for it definitely is.

[101RRS]

Your forgetting one thing,they are trying to force them on us no matter what we want or what our needs are.

Who is "they", I don't feel any pressure to change to EVs - the exception was the ACT Govt recent policy that no new ICE vehicle could be sold after something like 2035 but that has since been revised.

[scarry]

Who is "they", I don't feel any pressure to change to EVs - the exception was the ACT Govt recent policy that no new ICE vehicle could be sold after something like 2035 but that has since been revised.

If you look at NVES,New Vehicle Emission Standards,and how it is structured over the next 5 yrs,all will be revealed.

[DieselLSE]

If you look at NVES,New Vehicle Emission Standards,and how it is structured over the next 5 yrs,all will be revealed.
And this is why:
First climate risk assessment finds 1.5m Australians at risk from sea level rise by 2050 - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-15/climate-risk-assessment-sea-level-rise-2035-target/105765456)

[RANDLOVER]

IIRC the only countries without NVES besides Australia are Russia and Nth Korea, I'd much rather be in the other club.

[DoubleChevron]

And this is why:
First climate risk assessment finds 1.5m Australians at risk from sea level rise by 2050 - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-15/climate-risk-assessment-sea-level-rise-2035-target/105765456)

Yes right .... I have this bridge for sale, are you interested? Seriously, though... We could all drive big blocks v8's or all drive electric cars. It would make an impossible to measure difference to the worlds environment. what we do in australia is utterly irrelevant to any climate change. I'm surprised anyone reads the ABC news website, its such one side biased nonsense when ever I look at it.


https://www.climate.gov/sites/default/files/2023-01/climateqa_global_surface_temps_65million_years_248 0.png

the earth is actually in a real cold snap over the last few hundred thousand years. The only consistent thing is climate change. If you want to be concerned, Id be thinking "rate of climate change" not the fact its changing.

[DoubleChevron]

And this is why:
First climate risk assessment finds 1.5m Australians at risk from sea level rise by 2050 - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-15/climate-risk-assessment-sea-level-rise-2035-target/105765456)

typical ABC ... I did try and look at the references for that news story....................... Where did they get that from. its like they pulled the data out of thin air. The entire story is just "oh no the world is coming to an end" with absolutely no backup references.

I'm sure 20years ago, the ABC new was actually factually written researched topics with opposing views on subjects both covered. Today it is just a laughing stock. very sad really :(

[DieselLSE]

typical ABC ... I did try and look at the references for that news story....................... Where did they get that from. its like they pulled the data out of thin air. The entire story is just "oh no the world is coming to an end" with absolutely no backup references.
They reported on a number of stories from the National Climate Assessment Report.
Australian Climate Service (https://www.acs.gov.au/)
Or you can read the highlights here: https://climateservice.maps.arcgis.com/sharing/rest/content/items/9d4850b2d64d47e28407c04681b0eeca/data

[DoubleChevron]

They reported on a number of stories from the National Climate Assessment Report.
Australian Climate Service (https://www.acs.gov.au/)
Or you can read the highlights here: https://climateservice.maps.arcgis.com/sharing/rest/content/items/9d4850b2d64d47e28407c04681b0eeca/data

Thanks for that. I was getting excited there for a minute, I thought that could be good. I've think I've decided anything that starts with crap like "acknowledgment of traditional owners" ... is going to be baseless stupidity ... a fluff piece. Still I figured it could be really interesting.....




The first pass assessment was a qualitativeassessment of Australia’s climate risks (DCCEEW,2024). It included a comprehensive literaturescan, a rapid adaptation stocktake and aseries of expert elicitation workshops.The first pass assessment reviewed climatewithin and across 8 systems that make up oursociety and environment, and delivered a robust,expert-led identification of risks of nationalsignificance (DCCEEW, 2024). A final workshopconsidered how these risks can compound,cascade and aggregate across multiple systems,and identified a number of cross-system risks.


Seriously .... [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] what meaningless drivel. Oh man .... my eyes are watering I'm laughing so much. What utter crap. Are they trying to sound impressive? Where's the damn data subsets they have drawn any of there conclusions from ..... Did us tax payer pay to create this [bigsad]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Crikey, you lot carry on.

An EV i just another type of car, you choose the type of ICE car that suits your needs, ranging from smaller engined vehicles for around town to larger for interstate cruising, diesel vs petrol dependent on your needs. Same with one EV compared to another EV brand or EV compared to ICE.

If an EV does not suit your need dont buy one, if it does then buy one but stop carrying on.
The level of hysteria in this thread is insane. It's just a car with a different driveline to what people are used to.

[Saitch]

The level of hysteria in this thread is insane. It's just a car with a different driveline to what people are used to.

Absolutely 100% correct..........................except politics and reality are involved.

[DoubleChevron]

Absolutely 100% correct..........................except politics and reality are involved.

Where is the hysteria? does someone not agreeing with you == hysteria [bigrolf][bighmmm]

[101RRS]

Where is the hysteria? does someone not agreeing with you == hysteria [bigrolf][bighmmm]

It is when the same points gets made over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over

[Tombie]

It is when the same points gets made over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over

Like the radio, TV, Facebook - “Don’t like it, Scroll on”

[PhilipA]

You see it is quite obvious to the cognoscenti that Australia is actually enclosed by a huge bubble that isolates it from the rest of the World , sort of like "The Truman Show" and that anything we do will immediately have dire effects regardless of what is happening in the rest of the World. You see we produce about 0.1% of World emissions but boy Australian emissions affect Australia totally disproportionately so we must live in a bubble.
See it's obvious if you think about until your brain self destructs.
Regards PhilipA

[DieselLSE]

This article covers most of the ground discussed in this thread so far.
The government says its 2035 climate targets are achievable but mathematics suggests a different story - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-22/climate-target-2035-2050-carbon-emissions-global-warming/105799080)

[grey_ghost]

This article covers most of the ground discussed in this thread so far.
The government says its 2035 climate targets are achievable but mathematics suggests a different story - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-09-22/climate-target-2035-2050-carbon-emissions-global-warming/105799080)

Interesting article. Who would have thought that Albo is completely full of his own…

No chance of meeting the targets.. Oh dear - yet people will continue to vote for him.

Lets stop growing food and plant trees on the farms. We meet the targets but all die of hunger. Well that’s a win for the planet.

Meanwhile in China.. Wink

[NavyDiver]

Interesting article. Who would have thought that Albo is completely full of his own…

No chance of meeting the targets.. Oh dear - yet people will continue to vote for him.

Lets stop growing food and plant trees on the farms. We meet the targets but all die of hunger. Well that’s a win for the planet.

Meanwhile in China.. Wink
I have both Germany and Australia in a case study of mine in an investment thesis on Nuclear power- Not here of course.

On the political side I have no clue- On power prices, gas supply and a few other topics my money is where my mouth is [biggrin][biggrin]


On EV's I saw a e Mustang yesterday. They are fairly common perhaps.

News on better batteries is getting louder. "Show me the money" is a comment worth considering before shooting my mouth off of course. I think the 80,000 2nd service is due on my MG now. I'll let you know how much it costs while whistling Dixie about the amounts I may have paid for a few prior cars[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Found the data for EV sales by brand. Mustangs were on page 5! Link Below
Mustangs sold 275 this year so are bit rare or unloved? Number one has a CEO I don't find funny [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] He does get paid very well with Billions in this years pay packet I heard- Edit. MIA CULPA I was massively wrong with "Tesla's board has proposed a $US1 trillion ($1.52 trillion) compensation plan for CEO Elon Musk in what would be the largest corporate pay package in history."

Australian electric vehicle sales by month in 2025 - by model and by brand (https://thedriven.io/2025/09/03/australian-electric-vehicle-sales-by-month-and-by-model-in-2025-2/)

[RANDLOVER]

Nothing in Alan Kohler's article in post no. 4202 says the trees have to be grown in Australia, satellite imagery shows that even his upper target of 15 square km's has been cleared just about every year in the Amazon. So reversing just one year of the average average loss should cover it.

Deforestation of the Amazon rainforest - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_of_the_Amazon_rainforest)

Period[78] Estimated remaining forest cover
in the Brazilian Amazon (km2) Annual forest
loss (km2) Percent of 1970
cover remaining Total forest
loss (km2)
Pre–1970 4,100,001 — — —
1977 3,955,870 21,130 96.5% 144,130
1978–1987 3,744,570 211,300 91.3% 355,430
1988 3,723,520 21,050 90.8% 376,480
1989 3,705,750 17,770 90.4% 394,250
1990 3,692,020 13,730 90.0% 407,980
1991 3,680,990 11,030 89.8% 419,010
1992 3,667,204 13,786 89.4% 432,796
1993 3,652,308 14,896 89.1% 447,692
1994 3,637,412 14,896 88.7% 462,588
1995 3,608,353 29,059 88.0% 491,647
1996 3,590,192 18,161 87.6% 509,808
1997 3,576,965 13,227 87.2% 523,035
1998 3,559,582 17,383 86.8% 540,418
1999 3,542,323 17,259 86.4% 557,677
2000 3,524,097 18,226 86.0% 575,903
2001 3,505,932 18,165 85.5% 594,068
2002 3,484,281 21,651 85.0% 615,719
2003 3,458,885 25,396 84.4% 641,115
2004 3,431,113 27,772 83.7% 668,887
2005 3,412,099 19,014 83.2% 687,901
2006 3,397,814 14,285 82.9% 702,186
2007 3,386,163 11,651 82.6% 713,837
2008 3,373,252 12,911 82.3% 726,748
2009 3,365,788 7,464 82.1% 734,212
2010 3,358,788 7,000 81.9% 741,212
2011 3,352,370 6,418 81.8% 747,630
2012 3,347,799 4,571 81.7% 752,201
2013 3,341,908 5,891 81.5% 758,092
2014 3,336,896 5,012 81.4% 763,104
2015 3,330,689 6,207 81.2% 769,311
2016 3,322,796 7,893 81.0% 777,204
2017 3,315,849 6,947 80.9% 784,151
2018 3,308,313 7,536 80.7% 791,687
2019 3,298,551 9,762 80.5% 801,449
2020 3,290,125† 8,426 80.2% 809,875
2021 3,279,649 10,476 80.0% 820,351
2022 3,268,049 11,600 79.7% 831,951
2023 3,260,097 7,952 79.5% 839,903
2024 3,253,809 6,288 79.4% 846,191
2025 3,248,545 5,264 79.2%

[NavyDiver]

Just went to book the 2nd service I assumed due at 80,000km. Had the phone number or link ready to book it. Went to get some details from the car and found the prior service sticker said Next 810,000 or Jan 2026[biggrin][biggrin]

I will have to wait a little to find out the cost.

[Tins]

Just FYI. I don't have a dog in this fight and never will.


https://youtu.be/hd3Wntl4VWc?si=GQXZPKVYlXpKVwj-

[DoubleChevron]

Just FYI. I don't have a dog in this fight and never will.


https://youtu.be/hd3Wntl4VWc?si=GQXZPKVYlXpKVwj-

any accident big enough to comprise the battery structure on something like a tesla ..... would probably indicate there is no hope for the occupants either way :( ... They do need to sort out those door handles though. I guess they are avoiding allowing mechanical entry via doorhandles from the outside to prevent hijacking.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Reluctant as I am.. Hyundai and their EV pricing. Been totally off the mark the whole time. I've always been like "once the few people that want one have one.. no one will pay that". And so it was.

Hyundai have plenty of two year old Ioniq6 that they haven't sold. Massive price cuts.

Hyundai slashes prices across its EV range | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/hyundai-slashes-prices-across-its-ev-range)

[DoubleChevron]

Reluctant as I am.. Hyundai and their EV pricing. Been totally off the mark the whole time. I've always been like "once the few people that want one have one.. no one will pay that". And so it was.

Hyundai have plenty of two year old Ioniq6 that they haven't sold. Massive price cuts.

Hyundai slashes prices across its EV range | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/hyundai-slashes-prices-across-its-ev-range)

I just can't stand that guy. Its a shame as anything he mentions that is to do with engineering or scientific facts is usually spot on (from what my feeble brain can tell).

Who in there right mind is going to pay those asking prices for what is effectively a 3 year old giant battery.... If it lasts 5-8 years, you don't have much capacity left.

If anyone here has a fascination for old hybrids ... there is a Mk1 Honda Insight for sale on fb marketplace in qld for not a lot of $$$ at the moment. It needs a battery though .... (don't stress, its only a little hybrid battery, so "only" a few thousand, not tens of thousands)

[Tins]

Meanwhile, at Tesla. This could change many things. And it was unnecessary. Can't see insurers putting up with it.


https://youtu.be/NCJHu1NDhx4?si=2sA0iQhPwcWD5jyy

[Tins]

Or this.


https://youtu.be/1TEb_MkhM_w?si=sj_5XXDzFJNd_QBO

[350RRC]

Or this.


https://youtu.be/1TEb_MkhM_w?si=sj_5XXDzFJNd_QBO

I assume you know about the mega ice beemer recalls going on around the globe atm due to spontaneousb combustion risk?

In carrot head land the owners have been told to park them outside.

I'll post model / year details the next couple of days.

DL

[350RRC]

From the Oz last weekend paraphrased...............

196,355 beemers and 1469 supras built by bmw recalled due a starter relay which corrodes, overheats and can start fires whether moving or not.

US safety watch dog NHTSA.:keep these cars away from houses and garages.

Days later bow recalled another 145,102 vehicles for starter motor overheating issues after repeated start attempts. Can ignite 'nearby items' apparently.

Problem affects: Z4, 3 Series, 5 Series, X3, X4, 4 Series, X5, X7, and 7 Series bought in the last 5 years, apparently.

[Saitch]

Hmmm. Let me think. What would I rather try to extinguish?

A: A starter motor fire?

B: An EV battery fire?

I'm definitely going A!

[Tins]

Hmmm. Let me think. What would I rather try to extinguish?

A: A starter motor fire?

B: An EV battery fire?

I'm definitely going A!

As am I. Anything will burn in the right circumstances. Just seems the right circumstances happen more often, and louder, in the EV world. And WAY harder to put out.

[NavyDiver]

Hmmm. Let me think. What would I rather try to extinguish?

A: A starter motor fire?

B: An EV battery fire?

I'm definitely going A!

I have a better option Saitch. I was on the back of a Firetruck Monday Night with a hose in my hands chasing a soccer ball around with the drivers help of course. Its now my FAV fire trick- Soccer[biggrin]

PS just started a Evnex EV charger. Smart EV chargers for home & business | Evnex AU (https://www.evnex.com/au) NZ made and NZ support rocked to get everything running [thumbsupbig] Free driving cost frequently for this black duck [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Of interest it was very very competitively priced to all the sales prices here in OZ. I like NZ fishing and Mountains so support took some time [biggrin][biggrin]

Free is of course [B]AFTER adding 7kWhCharger, Solar, Shed for that and sparkies

[Saitch]

I have a better option Saitch. I was on the back of a Firetruck Monday Night with a hose in my hands chasing a soccer ball around with the drivers help of course. Its now my FAV fire trick- Soccer[biggrin][biggrin]



Is that called 'Fireball'?

I might have a go. :ohyes:

194790


Seriously though, I was advised to prepare. Our area is a 'No slashing, mowing, angle grinders etc.'.
I hope all I have to use it for, is to water some trees![smilebigeye]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

As am I. Anything will burn in the right circumstances. Just seems the right circumstances happen more often, and louder, in the EV world. And WAY harder to put out.
If any car catches fire under my house - it doesn't matter what it is. I loose my house. How hard or otherwise it is to put the car out is irrelevant as it's my house which is on fire. I don't worry about charging my EV - but I do worry about my ice cars. I won't start the lotus without a clear line of sight to the fire extinguisher, and I can't seem to stop the land rover pouring diesel on the garage floor since I came back.

Even though ICE cars are apparently 20 times more likely to catch fire than EV's.. I constantly find it remarkable how rarely ICE cars catch fire. It's a miracle.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMgtesMEIPX_9rE9PZ8yffSEsvje5TP2XKfxnpKUeO_m5 _mohcVmWldXmLEpcLNoxcKKP10wgmbiXkLH8KISgj0TwlALTQx ER9_HiYoVpohkhPkgOzIL4Oi4z3bl0QQ-NeBwJ6KZalgxIvWEPhc2G1o=w944-h708-s-no-gm?authuser=0

[NavyDiver]

Is that called 'Fireball'?

I might have a go. :ohyes:

194790


Seriously though, I was advised to prepare. Our area is a 'No slashing, mowing, angle grinders etc.'.
I hope all I have to use it for, is to water some trees![smilebigeye]
Try it. It's a BLAST I did have go in our strike unit. It was from the passenger seat so not nearly as much fun [biggrin][biggrin] Tanker lasted over 30 minutes with 5000lt on board. Strike even with the skinny hose was dry in sub 15 minutes of soccer [bigsmile]

Back to EVs.

A 7X not the old soft drink my dad made [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] A Zeeker. No tow bar yet approved!

"[B]QuantumScape Stock Is Surging, But Analysts Warn It Could Fall 60% From Here

"

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

Last year- "QuantumScape Corporation witnessed a substantial stock price increase following the announcement of a key strategic collaboration with [B]Japanese electronics giant Murata Manufacturing."

This year "Why QuantumScape Stock Zoomed Up 55% in September and Just Hit a 52-Week High

"

" IAA Mobility show in September, [B]Volkswagen Group's (OTC: VWAGY) subsidiary PowerCo displayed the first all-electric Ducati V21L race motorcycle -- and it was equipped with QuantumScape's QSE-5 solid-state batteries."

This one is interesting "QuantumScape announced an agreement with glass and ceramics giant Corning (NYSE: GLW) to jointly develop ceramic separators that can be produced at scale for commercial use."



GLW has 27.735B in Assets[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] "a huge partner to manufacture the most critical components of its batteries as it commences production"

Show me the money is my motto in investment not the claims and pump and dump stuff like above!

Cars fully charged for free (after installation costs and the rest of course [bigrolf])

EDIT the BIKE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMQ-8Wey4h4

[DoubleChevron]

Try it. It's a BLAST I did have go in our strike unit. It was from the passenger seat so not nearly as much fun [biggrin][biggrin] Tanker lasted over 30 minutes with 5000lt on board. Strike even with the skinny hose was dry in sub 15 minutes of soccer [bigsmile]

Back to EVs.

A 7X not the old soft drink my dad made [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] A Zeeker. No tow bar yet approved!

"[B]QuantumScape Stock Is Surging, But Analysts Warn It Could Fall 60% From Here

"

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

Last year- "QuantumScape Corporation witnessed a substantial stock price increase following the announcement of a key strategic collaboration with [B]Japanese electronics giant Murata Manufacturing."

This year "Why QuantumScape Stock Zoomed Up 55% in September and Just Hit a 52-Week High

"

" IAA Mobility show in September, [B]Volkswagen Group's (OTC: VWAGY) subsidiary PowerCo displayed the first all-electric Ducati V21L race motorcycle -- and it was equipped with QuantumScape's QSE-5 solid-state batteries."

This one is interesting "QuantumScape announced an agreement with glass and ceramics giant Corning (NYSE: GLW) to jointly develop ceramic separators that can be produced at scale for commercial use."



GLW has 27.735B in Assets[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] "a huge partner to manufacture the most critical components of its batteries as it commences production"

Show me the money is my motto in investment not the claims and pump and dump stuff like above!

Cars fully charged for free (after installation costs and the rest of course [bigrolf])

EDIT the BIKE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMQ-8Wey4h4

Its interesting isn't it. I would have thought a fast, small agile bike for commuting (small range doesn't matter) would be loved by all. It appears no-one really wants electric bikes. I guess its just like cars, if your someone that loves bikes, you want something that shakes, shudders, makes "brmm, brmm" sounds .... etc

I think the issue with electric motors, is they are kinda souless, no matter how superior they really are. the motorbike becomes the equivalent of a "fridge" rather than something exciting

[Tins]

Its interesting isn't it. I would have thought a fast, small agile bike for commuting (small range doesn't matter) would be loved by all.

Yeah, but this is a DUC!!! FFS.

Kid up the road from me has an E-Bike of some sort. i call it "whispering death", as it's fast and you do not hear it coming. Now, I know treadlies match that description too, but nobody rides them in my street....

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Its interesting isn't it. I would have thought a fast, small agile bike for commuting (small range doesn't matter) would be loved by all. It appears no-one really wants electric bikes. I guess its just like cars, if your someone that loves bikes, you want something that shakes, shudders, makes "brmm, brmm" sounds .... etc

I think the issue with electric motors, is they are kinda souless, no matter how superior they really are. the motorbike becomes the equivalent of a "fridge" rather than something exciting
Well... actually quite a lot of people want electric bikes. But they don't want the type that you might see with a registration plate and legally riding on the road.

Our bike paths are being engulfed by all types of weird stuff. They aren't legal motorbikes. They aren't legal push bikes. They are legal to own, but the only place they can be legally operated is private property.

Of course, our bike paths are being swamped by them.

[NavyDiver]

Its interesting isn't it. I would have thought a fast, small agile bike for commuting (small range doesn't matter) would be loved by all. It appears no-one really wants electric bikes. I guess its just like cars, if your someone that loves bikes, you want something that shakes, shudders, makes "brmm, brmm" sounds .... etc

I think the issue with electric motors, is they are kinda souless, no matter how superior they really are. the motorbike becomes the equivalent of a "fridge" rather than something exciting

The wind up sound of the FFGs was noticeable. DDGs noise was almost zip when doing 36 knots and trying to keep on my feet with all that thumping POWER was very exciting[biggrin] The BMW k100 I had purred lot like some electric motors [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Suspect once the wind noise at above 80kph almost no-one on a bike can hear the engine much. My GSX might be one of the exception to that after it blew the exhaust baffle

The point of the Solid state bit is they are much LONG range for the same weight as current battery tech. Plus as fast to charge as filling up at the servo[bigrolf]

I like the sound of the cars at Bathurst for the day only perhaps. Bone jarring shuddering old Harleys are a NEVER EVER again for this black duck after 200km run on one waiting to get my bike back off the sod who asked to swap for a while:bat::bat::bat:

Loud or quiet. Incredibly low Maintenace and very cheap to run was my main reason to go to the dark side. Cool bit is we all have a choice. I am not telling anyone to do what to do or to do as I do promise. Your way is your choice.

[Tins]

Or this:

https://youtu.be/QgDZNK7iW4U?si=dc71UvGVappuDk_K

[NavyDiver]

Land Rover is launching its first fully electric Range Rover in 2025, with a waiting list already topping 62,000 reservations globally.
Here’s a breakdown of what’s coming in the electric Land Rover lineup:
⚡ Range Rover Electric (2025)

Launch Timeline: Expected to debut in late 2025, with reservations opening soon.

Design: Nearly identical to the current combustion model, but with EV-specific touches like a closed grille and copper accents.

Performance Testing: Undergoing extreme climate tests in the Arctic and UAE deserts to ensure off-road capability and durability.

Features:


Near-silent electric propulsion

Zero tailpipe emissions

Advanced torque management for off-road performance

Water wading capability up to 850mm


? Defender Sport (Electric Freelander Successor)

Positioning: A smaller, all-electric version of the Defender, designed to replace the Discovery Sport and compete with models like the BMW iX3.

Design: Boxy and upright, with rugged styling and a new platform tailored for EVs.

Purpose: Targets a high-volume segment to boost JLR’s profitability amid industry challenges.

? EV Conversion Kits for Classic Defenders

Electrogenic Kit: Converts classic Land Rover Defenders to electric in just one day, replacing the engine with a high-torque motor for improved off-road performance


62000 people on the waiting list apparently.

I think I will wait for a while myself The KIT might be interesting IF/When it get Solid state!

lr-l460kmiw-au-en (https://forms.rangerover.com/rr-au-en/servlet/SmartForm.html?formCode=lr-l460kmiw-au-en&variant=RangeRover&_gl=1*1vh5syt*_gcl_au*MTA3NDIwOTMwNS4xNzYxMDEyNTM0 *FPAU*MTA3NDIwOTMwNS4xNzYxMDEyNTM0*_ga*ODI1NjQwODY uMTc2MTAxMjUyOQ..*_ga_EP68L37Y5G*czE3NjEwMTI1Mjgkb zEkZzEkdDE3NjEwMTI3MTAkajQ1JGwwJGgxMzQwNzkwMjg.*_f plc*bkJFRU9lTXlTSERCYU1iSVBHTHdxS1B2bFdPJTJGVFdKaT NnNDljOUVhdG52ZzlCbEdYR1VPejFPYTI0WmIlMkZ0emNrcmVF VzhxJTJGMDNBQnIlMkZLWFdrMFZRVkM3ZnVTa0w2Y2J1NEU0YW tGdHJJRXY0QmRqVTEzSUFaJTJGeURYSHR0dyUzRCUzRA..)

[Arapiles]

Well... actually quite a lot of people want electric bikes. But they don't want the type that you might see with a registration plate and legally riding on the road.

Our bike paths are being engulfed by all types of weird stuff. They aren't legal motorbikes. They aren't legal push bikes. They are legal to own, but the only place they can be legally operated is private property.

Of course, our bike paths are being swamped by them.

Speaking as a cyclist, the unregistered electric motorbikes are a real problem, but I suspect that there won't be any action taken on them in Victoria until someone is killed.

[RANDLOVER]

I nearly took out two rocket cyclists the other day, turning across traffic into my mate's place, I saw two in the distance, and thought plenty of time,, so I looked over my shoulder for any coming the other way as it is a bike path, when I looked back they were almost upon me!

[V8Ian]

It's beyond a joke, I saw one (scooter) in Ipswich the other day, passing 60 kph traffic on the left. No helmet, no high vis, no brains and no chance of stopping if a car was to turn left.

[101RRS]

Speaking as a cyclist, the unregistered electric motorbikes are a real problem, but I suspect that there won't be any action taken on them in Victoria until someone is killed.

They have been killed, a pedestrian was killed in Hastings a few months back.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Speaking as a cyclist, the unregistered electric motorbikes are a real problem, but I suspect that there won't be any action taken on them in Victoria until someone is killed.

We are ground zero in QLD. Anything goes. Like literally anything. If you can buy it on the internet get on it and come and ride our bike paths. This rattled past me last week.


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMRIfjxUYV1ComnyLmGiIbzVRchn10k9HuxwzqrlUNIIK xlQpJYqQNeQYdNiKoLbmcnvtKRM7jpRg-390Mnd_XwBL0IdhqNhlRGLhYpTL_vkJD7o-z8xfbisP1EFsbIWpIaXnyV7U7PzcKxLAIZJVBd=w1920-h1080-s-no?authuser=0

[Captain_Rightfoot]

They have been killed, a pedestrian was killed in Hastings a few months back.
The hospitals are being flooded by these things. Pedestrians killed. That's one of the things that has pushed the rule changes, enquiries etc in QLD. All the doctors demanding action.

Mind you .. the complete inaction by QPS at enforcing the existing laws is a large part of the problem. We've done a good job of convincing people to do what they can get away with regardless of the rules.

[123rover50]

We are ground zero in QLD. Anything goes. Like literally anything. If you can buy it on the internet get on it and come and ride our bike paths. This rattled past me last week.

We drive on the LHS in OZ. Is that in another country or can scooters drive on whatever side they like ?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMRIfjxUYV1ComnyLmGiIbzVRchn10k9HuxwzqrlUNIIK xlQpJYqQNeQYdNiKoLbmcnvtKRM7jpRg-390Mnd_XwBL0IdhqNhlRGLhYpTL_vkJD7o-z8xfbisP1EFsbIWpIaXnyV7U7PzcKxLAIZJVBd=w1920-h1080-s-no?authuser=0

Looks like I wrote in the wrong place. Try again. Can scooters ride on whatever side of the road they like? Looks like you are both on the RHS.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Looks like I wrote in the wrong place. Try again. Can scooters ride on whatever side of the road they like? Looks like you are both on the RHS.
it's a two way bike path.. that's looking backwards. It's a rearview camera. I'm on the left and he's overtaking me on the right. But that's not the point!

He's riding an electric moped on a shared path.

The rules that the state has in place is things ridden on bike paths.. the primary source of power has to be the human. If it does have motor assist it needs to cut out at 25kph (unless it's a PMD/scooter). That's the stated intent of the law. But if you don't enforce the laws then you just end up where people are riding electric motorbikes on our off road bike tracks and separated paths.

I'm pretty sure that for many people, both walking and riding there is a real attraction to being away from high speed motorised traffic. I'm sure the police have better things to do, but if something isn't done these facilities will very likely just become race tracks for all manner of electric things. We're even starting to see some petrol powered things creeping back onto off road facilities as people have realised it's the wild west.

From what I've seen in general it's only the clueless newbies that ride their unregistered motorbikes on the road in traffic as that's a shore way of being pulled by a cop. The smart ones know bike paths and shared paths are enforcement free so you can go your hardest there.

[RANDLOVER]

I think they are also being used for crime as my brother saw a gardener put a battery powered backpack blower down to go for lunch and a guy on a high powered scooter picked it up and zoomed off up the bike path.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The RULEZ!

Bikes.

While we're off on a tangent... apparently prior to 2021 the law stated that people selling electric bikes in Aus had to prove, or be able to prove that their bikes complied with the Australian standards. In short the motor was limited to 250w and can only be activated by pedalling (no throttles). There are a few little quirks, like old standards that limit power more and allow throttles, and NSW who has allowed up to 500W which is not really done anywhere else.

Anyway in 2021 the federal government changed the law so that the requirement to prove a device was compliant was removed. No-one knows why but all this "mess" is down to that. So now importers are selling bikes which don't meet the standards. They aren't illegal to sell, or to own, but they are illegal to use anywhere other than private property.

I got passed by one of these he other day. 850w, no speed limiter. Buy on line.. no worries. Not even a mention that they aren't legal to operate in public spaces.

2026 Amflow PL Carbon 800Wh Electric Mountain Bike | DJI Avinox Motor
– PedL E-Bikes & E-Scooters (https://www.pedl.com.au/products/amflow-pl-carbon-800wh-electric-mountain-bike-dji-avinox-motor-dual-suspension-oled-display)

Personal Mobility Devices.

In the interest of brevity.. lets call these scooters. Now this varies wildly by state but let's break them down into two classes. Hire scooters which are generally fairly tightly controlled. And private scooters.

Queensland led the way with these making their operation legal in public space if they met a number of conditions. Limiting power and max speed. And then for various reasons - in 2023 they removed pretty much all limitations on the devices and made it just like cars - the operator is responsible to ensure that they don't go over 25kph on bike paths, and 12kph on footpaths/shared paths. So you can buy a 4kw scooter and it's all up to the operator to not go too fast. And we know how that's going.

This one is a relatively common sight. Up to 105kph. Dual wheel drive, 4 kh of power. At least they kind of allude that it might not be legal.

Kaabo Wolf King GTR Electric Scooter | Electric Kicks (https://www.electrickicks.com.au/products/kaabo-wolf-king-gtr?variant=44594897649903&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping&utm_source=google&campaign_id=20448009327&ad_id=&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Performance%20Max%20%7C%20Low%20Mediu m%20%7C%20ALL&utm_content=&utm_term=&gclid=CjwKCAjw3tzHBhBREiwAlMJoUqHietpnGHKPKg_SsFos CfMSxO5FHHhiCJnMG8tW89g1ZYSgYMAVQBoC2KwQAvD_BwE&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=20457491464&gbraid=0AAAAACvY3DxwZ5-6K6-j0GUjGlxWHln2p)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

How it's actually going... kids riding electric things on shared paths at 50kph and over. Sure! one less car.


https://youtu.be/etWteMnHU7I?si=clsBFQDDZAle0q-i


https://youtu.be/eHMCa4nJ-Xk?si=SAoGZhCZlFUCmKOF

[austastar]

[QUOTE=RANDLOVER;3255694 a guy on a high powered scooter picked it up and zoomed off up the bike path.[/QUOTE]

Hi,
J.A.T.O.? ?

Cheers

[NavyDiver]

How it's actually going... kids riding electric things on shared paths at 50kph and over. Sure! one less car.


https://youtu.be/etWteMnHU7I?si=clsBFQDDZAle0q-i


https://youtu.be/eHMCa4nJ-Xk?si=SAoGZhCZlFUCmKOF


Great to see the kids getting to school not via the car drop off types. The separate bike and walking paths as well- Nice. Re the 50kph bit. A few bike types can push racing bikes along at that speed. I am more a 20-30kph bike type[biggrin]

What's your beast of a machine?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Great to see the kids getting to school not via the car drop off types. The separate bike and walking paths as well- Nice. Re the 50kph bit. A few bike types can push racing bikes along at that speed. I am more a 20-30kph bike type[biggrin]

What's your beast of a machine?
I have many bikes. In one of the videos I'm on our Giant Ebike (legal). I try not to ride it all the time though as I need the exercise. In the other video I was on either a road bike or the gravel bike.

[NavyDiver]

This is a very very big change. This is too fast for any current EV in Austrlia. That suggest to me that cars and UTES I hope that charge as fast as filling my Disco with diesel will be following fast given the huge cost this will involve. [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]




Huge EV charging boost coming to Australia - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/huge-ev-charging-boost-coming-to-australia-150683/)

BYD 1MW charger will slash charging time to equivalent of ICE from 2026The NewsEV recharging times will be slashed to the equivalent of petrol refuelling when BYD (https://www.carsales.com.au/byd/?__source=editorialArticle&driver_crosssell=editorial.in.article.link) introduces its one megawatt DC Flash Chargers (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/byd-launches-mighty-1mw-charger-148922/?__source=editorialArticle&driver_crosssell=editorial.in.article.link) to Australia next year.

The Key Details

BYD to build mega-fast DC chargers in Australia in 2026


Will be part of Denza dealer network


First 1000kW rechargeable likely to be Denza Z9 GT


Global BYD boss Wang Chuanfu has directly driven introduction of 1MW .......

[DoubleChevron]

This is a very very big change. This is too fast for any current EV in Austrlia. That suggest to me that cars and UTES I hope that charge as fast as filling my Disco with diesel will be following fast given the huge cost this will involve. [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]




Huge EV charging boost coming to Australia - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/huge-ev-charging-boost-coming-to-australia-150683/)

BYD 1MW charger will slash charging time to equivalent of ICE from 2026The News

EV recharging times will be slashed to the equivalent of petrol refuelling when BYD (https://www.carsales.com.au/byd/?__source=editorialArticle&driver_crosssell=editorial.in.article.link) introduces its one megawatt DC Flash Chargers (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/byd-launches-mighty-1mw-charger-148922/?__source=editorialArticle&driver_crosssell=editorial.in.article.link) to Australia next year.

The Key Details



BYD to build mega-fast DC chargers in Australia in 2026

Will be part of Denza dealer network

First 1000kW rechargeable likely to be Denza Z9 GT

Global BYD boss Wang Chuanfu has directly driven introduction of 1MW .......












It will be interesting to see how this works out for them. The chargers appear to be so tiny profit margins I can't see it being viable (imagine the grid connection to install 1/2 dozen 1MW charges. You are going to need a six million watt grid connection. Maybe at an aluminium smelter they might find this ??

I really do hope they manage this though. You only really need them in the middle of suburbia where the electric cars live (and there is no off street parking).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It will be interesting to see how this works out for them. The chargers appear to be so tiny profit margins I can't see it being viable (imagine the grid connection to install 1/2 dozen 1MW charges. You are going to need a six million watt grid connection. Maybe at an aluminium smelter they might find this ??

I really do hope they manage this though. You only really need them in the middle of suburbia where the electric cars live (and there is no off street parking).

FYI EV's are actually pretty good highway cars. The yanks have freeways everwhere and Teslas in particular are excellent on the highway. Effortless. Far far better than a defender. [bighmmm]

They won't be for everyone but if we have charging facilities on the highway network ev's might be an option for many people.

I've done some looking.. there are few instances where there are no towns that couldn't be within range of a standard range Tesla for instance. At least not until you get really west of Brisbane.

[DoubleChevron]

FYI EV's are actually pretty good highway cars. The yanks have freeways everwhere and Teslas in particular are excellent on the highway. Effortless. Far far better than a defender. [bighmmm]

They won't be for everyone but if we have charging facilities on the highway network ev's might be an option for many people.

I've done some looking.. there are few instances where there are no towns that couldn't be within range of a standard range Tesla for instance. At least not until you get really west of Brisbane.

I've got no doubt. There real "usage case" is in heavy traffic areas and short distances. I would expect big heavy electric cars would be excellent highway cruisers. I just can't see anyone of than the few really keen lunies that love electric cars using them for distance travel though. A bit like the lunies like me using old classic cars for distance travel ... its just dumb for the majority to attempt :)

seeya
shane L.

[NavyDiver]

I've got no doubt. There real "usage case" is in heavy traffic areas and short distances. I would expect big heavy electric cars would be excellent highway cruisers. I just can't see anyone of than the few really keen lunies that love electric cars using them for distance travel though. A bit like the lunies like me using old classic cars for distance travel ... its just dumb for the majority to attempt :)

seeya
shane L.

Fully agree with the current Tech. My nutty solid state battery play in the USA jumped another 25%. on friday NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!!!! I am putting my ute on hold for a year as that, the 1000 kWh charging network plan and other rapid changes is moving the dial from nuts to real world option. My last big 4wd specific drive in my disco from Esperance to Balladonia was rather remote.

https://www.adventures.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/esperance-to-eyre-highway.jpeg

I will wait Until my Disco EV replacement can do that and more for my next one. The prior golden Disco (RIP [bawl][bawl][bawl]) with its two fuel tanks, would be my goal range for real play time touring fun[thumbsupbig]


Next time I do that run I will make sure no bloody bush fires are going to make the Drive and 18 hour GET ME out of here event [bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I've got no doubt. There real "usage case" is in heavy traffic areas and short distances. I would expect big heavy electric cars would be excellent highway cruisers. I just can't see anyone of than the few really keen lunies that love electric cars using them for distance travel though. A bit like the lunies like me using old classic cars for distance travel ... its just dumb for the majority to attempt :)

seeya
shane L.
Well.. they they aren't really heavy. The equivalent BMW is an X3 and it's about 50kg heavier than a model y. More when you put fuel in it.

Are they Big (sorry Benny Hill moment)? Well a Model Y is significantly shorter than a Falcon.. let alone a wagon. I guess they certainly are large cars.

I'm afraid they are just really good highway cars because that's what the people that developed them do. Cars are usually a product of their development environment.

[DoubleChevron]

Well.. they they aren't really heavy. The equivalent BMW is an X3 and it's about 50kg heavier than a model y. More when you put fuel in it.

Are they Big (sorry Benny Hill moment)? Well a Model Y is significantly shorter than a Falcon.. let alone a wagon. I guess they certainly are large cars.

I'm afraid they are just really good highway cars because that's what the people that developed them do. Cars are usually a product of their development environment.

I just googled ... the model Y is about 2tons empty (slightly less with less motors/smaller battery). Very, very, very heavy for a small passenger sedan. Why would you compare it to a moderately heavy duty 4wd that probably has a full chassis, two heavy duty diffs, a transfer case ... etc.. to a small passenger sedan.

Now, highway cruisers, that is my forte. I live in the past. I have here an old Citroen CX. For its time, very fast, compared to a tesla very slow. This car weighs about 1300kgs empty. Can cruise at speeds upto 220km/h with supreme ease (it is what it designed for).

Now blasting down the autobarns for hours at a time at 180 -> 200km/h .... (which it loves) will return incredible comfort, staggering stability (height and load sensitive suspension, it always sits level). It could travel easily at these speeds for hours and fill up the tank in 5 minutes at a petrol station.
A tesla ... um ... it will easily do the speed. Your range will evaporate... It wind drag as speed increases will suck massively in an electric throw-away. you have stupid giant clown wheels with crappy rubber band tires (and no spare). It's ride is bone jarring in comparison ... You will be watching the charge indicator slowly going insane at these very reasonable cruising speeds. It is the complete opposite of the stress free drive above car. In my old ****box, you'll be cruising relaxed in your armchair recliner at 200km/h. One finger tip resting on the steering wheel, the car feels to push itself into the road harder the faster you go, a small flick of your little finger and a movement of the other finger resting on the steering wheel and your into the fast lane to get past the tesla owner desperately looking at the charge gauges going slower ... and slower ... and slower .... So relaxed, there is tons of hydraulic pressure holding the road-wheels where the steering is pointing them ... so you are just guiding her down the road with a finger on the steering wheel.
Isn't life easy ... no worrying about charging, no planning endless routes praying a charger will work when you get there ... hoping its not in some deserted parking lot behind a shop somewhere.... hoping you can get the app working on your hopefully charged phone so you can maybe get some charge into the car.

Actually, you know traveling in a tesla distances sounds so relaxing I might just buy an electric campervan. What a dream vacation!!!

archive.md (https://archive.md/id5Wt)

A great read (actually the camper looks awesome).

seeya
Shane L.

[Tins]

VW has “paused “ production of that van.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I just googled ... the model Y is about 2tons empty (slightly less with less motors/smaller battery). Very, very, very heavy for a small passenger sedan. Why would you compare it to a moderately heavy duty 4wd that probably has a full chassis, two heavy duty diffs, a transfer case ... etc.. to a small passenger sedan.

Now, highway cruisers, that is my forte. I live in the past. I have here an old Citroen CX. For its time, very fast, compared to a tesla very slow. This car weighs about 1300kgs empty. Can cruise at speeds upto 220km/h with supreme ease (it is what it designed for).

Now blasting down the autobarns for hours at a time at 180 -> 200km/h .... (which it loves) will return incredible comfort, staggering stability (height and load sensitive suspension, it always sits level). It could travel easily at these speeds for hours and fill up the tank in 5 minutes at a petrol station.
A tesla ... um ... it will easily do the speed. Your range will evaporate... It wind drag as speed increases will suck massively in an electric throw-away. you have stupid giant clown wheels with crappy rubber band tires (and no spare). It's ride is bone jarring in comparison ... You will be watching the charge indicator slowly going insane at these very reasonable cruising speeds. It is the complete opposite of the stress free drive above car. In my old ****box, you'll be cruising relaxed in your armchair recliner at 200km/h. One finger tip resting on the steering wheel, the car feels to push itself into the road harder the faster you go, a small flick of your little finger and a movement of the other finger resting on the steering wheel and your into the fast lane to get past the tesla owner desperately looking at the charge gauges going slower ... and slower ... and slower .... So relaxed, there is tons of hydraulic pressure holding the road-wheels where the steering is pointing them ... so you are just guiding her down the road with a finger on the steering wheel.
Isn't life easy ... no worrying about charging, no planning endless routes praying a charger will work when you get there ... hoping its not in some deserted parking lot behind a shop somewhere.... hoping you can get the app working on your hopefully charged phone so you can maybe get some charge into the car.

Actually, you know traveling in a tesla distances sounds so relaxing I might just buy an electric campervan. What a dream vacation!!!

archive.md (https://archive.md/id5Wt)

A great read (actually the camper looks awesome).

seeya
Shane L.

BMW X3

Height from
1660 mm

Width from
1920 mm

Length from
4755 mm


Weight 1865 for the 2WD petrol one.


Tesla Model Y

Height from
1611 mm

Width from
1978 mm

Length from
4750 mm




Weight 1788kg.

So the main reason I compared them is because they are as similar in dimensions as two cars can ever be. I mean the BWM will be much smaller inside, but that's another story. Anyway the EV is lighter so I don't see why you'd describe it as heavy because it's similar or lighter than equivalent ICE vehicles.

Plus all the weight is very low down which has lots of advantages.

[Tombie]

My search shows 1921kg for the std range Model Y. And 1992kg for the long range version…

Weight is fine, COG is good…. It still doesn’t help physics of cornering on a non-banked surface [emoji41] anything heavy is going to want to go straight.

Tesla is now an also ran in the EV race. The others are streaking ahead and will no doubt eclipse them in short order.

That’s seems to be one of the financial risks with EVs. Like PCs they evolve so quickly that the models by year help depreciate themselves.

Still, they’re a good alternative for those they suit, with the usage case etc aligned. As an urban 2nd vehicle (or for those whose sense of adventure is limited to going across town) they are a value proposition for those with Solar set ups suited to charging at home.

[DoubleChevron]

My search shows 1921kg for the std range Model Y. And 1992kg for the long range version…

Weight is fine, COG is good…. It still doesn’t help physics of cornering on a non-banked surface [emoji41] anything heavy is going to want to go straight.

Tesla is now an also ran in the EV race. The others are streaking ahead and will no doubt eclipse them in short order.

That’s seems to be one of the financial risks with EVs. Like PCs they evolve so quickly that the models by year help depreciate themselves.

Still, they’re a good alternative for those they suit, with the usage case etc aligned. As an urban 2nd vehicle (or for those whose sense of adventure is limited to going across town) they are a value proposition for those with Solar set ups suited to charging at home.

Tesla has put a huge amount of R&D into making them as light weight as possible. Because EV's are heavy. A sensible comparison is a standard camry. a passenger sedan, without all the hybrid junk and batteries, they weigh about 1.5tons. Which is still heavy for a passenger sedan of that size. All cars are getting much heavier over time.

The battery makes all EV's center of gravity great ... but is a huge liability in a coutnry like australia where road debris could damage it. I've hit a rock that has destroyed a front wheel on one of my cars before.... it certainly would have taken out an EV battery, the car would have hung up on it.

I'm not anti-ev, I'm just anti-stupidity, and claiming EV's aren't heavier than normal proper cars is just stupid. Making normal cars as heavy/inefficent/unreliable as an EV seems to be what the manufacturers are trying to do over the last few years. Which just appears bizzare to me.