EV general discussion

[Tins]

It’s not in the interest of the car companies to make ICE cars heavier. The emission laws and consumption figures all work against them. They work in percentages that are tiny to comply and the goal posts keep shifting. This is why we get electric power steering and plastic everything. Having to also meet safety regulations adds to the complications of compliance. EVs don’t have to meet emissions standards because they are measured at the tailpipe, and not at the place where the energy is produced. The idea that they are more environmentally friendly is a nonsense. But that’s the message that gubment sells, so they can promote their Net Zero agenda. And we must comply

I am also on record here saying that I am not anti EV if I was a city denizen that didn’t want to go out of town and could afford the infrastructure to charge the thing it would sell itself. But I am not, and I strenuously oppose having to pay subsidies to those who are, all for a green agenda that I totally disagree with.
The greatest emissions that a car produces are during its manufacture. I don’t own anything newer than 2000, so I have done my bit. If I cared. But I don’t. The idea that a Tesla or BYD is somehow better for the planet than my TD5 is idiotic. It’s created less emissions from the day of manufacture than a brand new model Y. I have no empirical evidence to support that statement but it’s fairly common knowledge that the batteries are environmentally disastrous, and that doesn’t include the awful gases they produce when they burn, which they do. And the country that produces the vast majority of them clearly doesn’t give a toss about the environment. So the whole green argument is moot.
I think I’m glad I have less in front of me than behind. I don’t think I would like the brave new world.

[DoubleChevron]

I'm not really intersted in a debate on what type of vehicle is better for the environment. They are all bad in there own way. And I'm a car nutter.... I don't dislike EV's ... But the stupidity around them drives me insane.

I don't think the weight really matters where pollution standard come in. The plastic everywhere is because its cheaper to produce. The main reason for cars being heavier, is they are far, far, far stronger. In an accident a car is eons better than anything made last century. They are all standard to look like generic blobs, as this is the easiest way to meet the pedestrian safety standards. If I look under the nose of the poogoe here made in 2007 .... the massive aluminium cross members and structural components are deeply impressive. The big crash members and structures to spread on offset front hit across the entire body are quite impressive.

The bodies of cars are so strong, my wifes little poogoe 2 door, I can feel it lift a rear wheel wwaaayyyy up into the air as I enter the local supermarket through a deep drain ... (I cross it at an angle so it doesn't beach the car out).

I don't think there has been much improvement in the last decade though. No its concentrating on stupid crap where the car intrudes on the driver. I flatly refuse to own any crapbox that tries to steer or brake the car for me... I don't mean EVs when I say this, I mean any modern crapbox that thinks it knows better than me ... the driver.

seeya
Shane L.

[NavyDiver]

I'm not really intersted in a debate on what type of vehicle is better for the environment. They are all bad in there own way. And I'm a car nutter.... I don't dislike EV's ... But the stupidity around them drives me insane.

I don't think the weight really matters where pollution standard come in. The plastic everywhere is because its cheaper to produce. The main reason for cars being heavier, is they are far, far, far stronger. In an accident a car is eons better than anything made last century. They are all standard to look like generic blobs, as this is the easiest way to meet the pedestrian safety standards. If I look under the nose of the poogoe here made in 2007 .... the massive aluminium cross members and structural components are deeply impressive. The big crash members and structures to spread on offset front hit across the entire body are quite impressive.

The bodies of cars are so strong, my wifes little poogoe 2 door, I can feel it lift a rear wheel wwaaayyyy up into the air as I enter the local supermarket through a deep drain ... (I cross it at an angle so it doesn't beach the car out).

I don't think there has been much improvement in the last decade though. No its concentrating on stupid crap where the car intrudes on the driver. I flatly refuse to own any crapbox that tries to steer or brake the car for me... I don't mean EVs when I say this, I mean any modern crapbox that thinks it knows better than me ... the driver.

seeya
Shane L.

I sort of agree. I love some aspects especially the exceptionally good adaptive cruise control in both high and low traffic and speed situations- It was terrifying get to know and trust it. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

For high-stress, repetitive tasks like staying centered in a well-marked lane on a freeway or maintaining a precise follow-distance, the ADAS systems (Lane Keeping and ACC) are often better and more consistent. They reduce fatigue and reaction time.


For navigating complex urban environments, handling poor infrastructure, or responding to unpredictable situations, our driver's judgment and adaptability remain superior.


The best solution is the collaboration: The systems serve as an essential safety net and fatigue reducer, but the human must remain the ultimate decision-maker and supervisor.


My foots always covering the brake and I get to concentrate on steering and watching the situation ahead much better. I think we all may have seen once or twice the impacts on fatigue on driving and anything that helps in that is fine with this black duck [thumbsupbig]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My TD5 has done 180k in 20 years. That's entirely down to it's role as a trip car. If it was a daily as well I'm guessing it would be at least twice that. Given I'd like to keep that car going longer I'm happy with that and I am grateful that we are in a position to have an EV for all the junk family miles.

Frankly the cost of maintenance of the defender is just horrifying. So far in 2.5 years of EV ownership - I've rotated the tyres front to back twice. Also, I spend about $150 on power each year. I've spent literally tens of thousands in operating costs on the defender.

I don't delude myself or hopefully anyone that EV's are "good for the environment". The best we can hope for is "less bad". But as has been noted the best outcome is to drive what you have. But sometimes people need to change car.

If you want true climate friendly transport. Walk, cycle, catch public transport.

[DoubleChevron]

My TD5 has done 180k in 20 years. That's entirely down to it's role as a trip car. If it was a daily as well I'm guessing it would be at least twice that. Given I'd like to keep that car going longer I'm happy with that and I am grateful that we are in a position to have an EV for all the junk family miles.

Frankly the cost of maintenance of the defender is just horrifying. So far in 2.5 years of EV ownership - I've rotated the tyres front to back twice. Also, I spend about $150 on power each year. I've spent literally tens of thousands in operating costs on the defender.

I don't delude myself or hopefully anyone that EV's are "good for the environment". The best we can hope for is "less bad". But as has been noted the best outcome is to drive what you have. But sometimes people need to change car.

If you want true climate friendly transport. Walk, cycle, catch public transport.

How is a defender horrifying to upkeep. Given your milage, fuel usage is little... nothing will really wear out. You might service it ever 2 years. It won't rot out exhausts (diesel)... You might need to replace the tires every 8 years and its battery every 5 years..... Your upkeep is effectively "nothing". Much like the limited use cars I have here. The ****box range rover costs me bugger all to upkeep as its not doing any vast milage.

Very confusing. You are comparing a 20year old car to a 2.5 year old car too. One that's not used for any of the heavy duty tasks the other car takes on. Lets see a comparison when the EV hits 20years of age and 180,000kms :) (which really is barely run in for a vehicle like a defender).

I honestly can't understand what you would have spent money on with the defender.... It'll still probably wear its orignal brake rotors even. Its had probably 18 oil changes, 4 sets of tires and 4 batteries in that time ... and not much else ...

BTW: Your EV has probably depreciated more in 2.5 years than the defender has in 20years .... I wouldn't be suprised if the defender is actually increasing in value.

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

How is a defender horrifying to upkeep. Given your milage, fuel usage is little... nothing will really wear out. You might service it ever 2 years. It won't rot out exhausts (diesel)... You might need to replace the tires every 8 years and its battery every 5 years..... Your upkeep is effectively "nothing". Much like the limited use cars I have here. The ****box range rover costs me bugger all to upkeep as its not doing any vast milage.

Very confusing. You are comparing a 20year old car to a 2.5 year old car too. One that's not used for any of the heavy duty tasks the other car takes on. Lets see a comparison when the EV hits 20years of age and 180,000kms :) (which really is barely run in for a vehicle like a defender).

I honestly can't understand what you would have spent money on with the defender.... It'll still probably wear its orignal brake rotors even. Its had probably 18 oil changes, 4 sets of tires and 4 batteries in that time ... and not much else ...

BTW: Your EV has probably depreciated more in 2.5 years than the defender has in 20years .... I wouldn't be suprised if the defender is actually increasing in value.

seeya
Shane L.

On my last trip we tripped over 185k. So I went back to 170k. Which is three years for me. Depending on trips. Regular maintenance has been 23100. Servicing, tyres, windscreen. All the usual stuff to stay on the road. This included a massive bill for a complete brake renewal, clutch renewal, various suspension bushes that was done just before the last trip. I do some stuff myself and which is mostly consumables which is oil etc which is probably not counted in that.

If you were including upgrades you would have to add another 4500 for replacing all the batteries and dual battery system and tow controller and wiring (batteries were 8 years old), 3400 for Koni Raid. Plus it was a couple of k for ECU and performance upgrades (sports exhaust!!). If you went back another couple of k to 168 you'd have 4k for an ashcroft ATB.

And all this excludes the $2200 for the airconditioning repairs. I've excluded that because that work is not finished because the stupid thing is not really working.

And It's currently at the specialist sorting a monumental fuel leak. "while your there change the pump". I expect that will be another 2k or more as the tank is rusty and might need some repairs. Damn LRA don't put great coatings on. :( It's got the original starter and alternator.. I'm nervously monitoring.

So we've had a couple of hard years. Lots of repairs that were just because the car is 20 years old.

Once we gave up on the grenadier there has been a few solid upgrades because we intend to keep the car.

If I'm honest I've heard our maintenance described as "premium maintenance". Because we really try to stay on top of it. Anything that even remotely looks to be departing specification is fixed. Because we only use it on trips, we try and make sure it's in 100% shape. Its not helping that parts now seem to have gotten much more expensive. Anyway - we take it out there and it goes like a rocket surrounded by modern cars. One of the NSW Toyota 4wd club trainers we had on our last trip described its performance as "Seriously impressive". We can do stuff in sand that no one else seems to be able to do. The specialist describes it as the best TD5 they see now.

So a friend of mine runs a lotus parts/engineering shop. He said that people who own V8 Esprit should budget 25k a year for maintenance. You won't spend it every year, but some years won't be great. I'm thinking the defender for us is probably a 10k maintenance a year car. Maybe a bit more if we don't have a few good years. Here is hoping.

I take on board that it's probably not depreciating much if at all. But that only helps if you sell it.

So yes, having an EV that so far has cost virtually $0 in maintenance and running has been a relief.

EDIT: in that 15k there has been two trips Brisbane to Birdsville, four desert crossings, and one trip to fraser for a couple of weeks. Probably only 2k in Brisbane.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPI1-tkUTGrGuIiLcJ7LfgVtWAojYnWPFwqWQHggAR1et0oMcqpINN7 VEat3kXqz79U4CNKSULdMevd_VsP1KUJpfPLwdVdEC4Ym-LPQzaa9a-1UfOEwSATQT5iTn1w7a_5qdi9gcCWmpbKxxrrOWgR=w3162-h2372-s-no?authuser=0

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ooops.. I forgot 3.2k for gullwing windows which I fitted myself. [bigsmile]

Sensational upgrade that. One of the best I've done.

[101RRS]

I'm not anti-ev,

Of course you are [bighmmm]

[RANDLOVER]

The electricity grid is getting greener every day as people install solar panels and so are the batteries....BMW Australia launches EV battery recycling program | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/bmw-australia-launches-ev-battery-recycling-program)

[NavyDiver]

The electricity grid is getting greener every day as people install solar panels and so are the batteries....BMW Australia launches EV battery recycling program | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/bmw-australia-launches-ev-battery-recycling-program)

Its still as shakey as ever with our dependance on Promises that are not going to happen. I clearly like both solar and batteries. [biggrin] The failure to allow the most energy dense power options here to contribute and avoid the need to spend trillions on expensive massive storage to deal with the more than a few minutes of sun shine or low wind and the giant in the Country - State to state and even localized connection/Interconnection failures is going to hurt.

Off to the All Energy gig in Melbourne to chat about the other issue biting- Those with batteries and solar getting ****e installations that do not supply any power if the Grid is off.

Almost put a laugh at that one. A sparky mate didn;t know his 10,000watt Goodwee Inverter and 30kWh and solar was wired as a dumb normal invert until I suggested he turn off the grid input! That was funny and is not fixed![biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

The chat about cost of maintenance is a choice we can have or not. Loved my Disco just not the empty my wallet impact to enjoy the 100,000s km I took it on [thumbsupbig]

I am still amazed my car is yet to have its second service[bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The chat about cost of maintenance is a choice we can have or not. Loved my Disco just not the empty my wallet impact to enjoy the 100,000s km I took it on [thumbsupbig]

I am still amazed my car is yet to have its second service[bigrolf]

Honestly, I think the people in here are so conditioned by the constant need for expensive heavy maintenance that they don't really see that it's even not possible to have it. "Everything is expensive.. it's just maintenance". The 4x4's we own are mechanically complex and require a lot of maintenance.

I've been on all the Tesla pages for a few years now. Tesla have sold a lot of cars in the last few years, many of which have done pretty substantive k's. I literally can't think of a ranty post by someone who has failed to proceed for any reason. Can't remember a single "my battery is toast" post. My motor is cooked. My electronics have let the smoke out. I really can't.

I'm sure the other EV's are good too. I've been on the BYD pages too and I also can't remember any big fail to proceeds. They probably have a few more niggles than tesla but no big ones.

Meanwhile I'm just keeping on spending the money in the hope we have some good years ahead where I spend less than 10k on maintenance a year. [bigwhistle] I literally cannot see why anyone who doesn't actively use the cars capability on a regular basis would run a 4x4. I do not understand why whole families would run them as their entire fleet when all they ever do is tow an occasional box trailer and drive around town. Sure if you really need a 4x4, but for the rest of us it's just insanity.

Owning one for a few years you realise the world keeps spinning. It's just a car with a battery.

[Tins]

I flatly refuse to own any crapbox that tries to steer or brake the car for me... I don't mean EVs when I say this, I mean any modern crapbox that thinks it knows better than me ... the driver.

seeya
Shane L.

That part is one of the main reasons, other than financial, that would keep me out of anything new. I drove a 2023 Isuzu D-Max, and I swear it was trying to kill me. But they were chasing the NCAP 5 rating, and the only way for a dual cab ute to get that is with electronic nannying. If I had to drive one of those the first thing I'd do is burrow into the settings and disable them all, which kinda defeats the point.

BTW, I thought I was clear about manufacturers having to meet all legislations, which obviously include safety as well as emissions. They wouldn't worry too much about adding weight for safety if they had a freer rein on engines.

[Tins]

Of course you are [bighmmm]

I think that you need to justify that statement, given that it no doubt also applies to me.

[Tins]

I literally cannot see why anyone who doesn't actively use the cars capability on a regular basis would run a 4x4. I do not understand why whole families would run them as their entire fleet when all they ever do is tow an occasional box trailer and drive around town. Sure if you really need a 4x4, but for the rest of us it's just insanity.



Unless, of course, their budget doesn't run to multiple vehicles. Or, like me, they no longer use the car every day to go to their place of employment. Not everyone can afford to keep a "trip vehicle", insured and registered, when they are not using it. "Insanity" is subjective.

[DoubleChevron]

On my last trip we tripped over 185k. So I went back to 170k. Which is three years for me. Depending on trips. Regular maintenance has been 23100. Servicing, tyres, windscreen. All the usual stuff to stay on the road. This included a massive bill for a complete brake renewal, clutch renewal, various suspension bushes that was done just before the last trip. I do some stuff myself and which is mostly consumables which is oil etc which is probably not counted in that.

If you were including upgrades you would have to add another 4500 for replacing all the batteries and dual battery system and tow controller and wiring (batteries were 8 years old), 3400 for Koni Raid. Plus it was a couple of k for ECU and performance upgrades (sports exhaust!!). If you went back another couple of k to 168 you'd have 4k for an ashcroft ATB.

And all this excludes the $2200 for the airconditioning repairs. I've excluded that because that work is not finished because the stupid thing is not really working.

And It's currently at the specialist sorting a monumental fuel leak. "while your there change the pump". I expect that will be another 2k or more as the tank is rusty and might need some repairs. Damn LRA don't put great coatings on. :( It's got the original starter and alternator.. I'm nervously monitoring.

So we've had a couple of hard years. Lots of repairs that were just because the car is 20 years old.

Once we gave up on the grenadier there has been a few solid upgrades because we intend to keep the car.

If I'm honest I've heard our maintenance described as "premium maintenance". Because we really try to stay on top of it. Anything that even remotely looks to be departing specification is fixed. Because we only use it on trips, we try and make sure it's in 100% shape. Its not helping that parts now seem to have gotten much more expensive. Anyway - we take it out there and it goes like a rocket surrounded by modern cars. One of the NSW Toyota 4wd club trainers we had on our last trip described its performance as "Seriously impressive". We can do stuff in sand that no one else seems to be able to do. The specialist describes it as the best TD5 they see now.

So a friend of mine runs a lotus parts/engineering shop. He said that people who own V8 Esprit should budget 25k a year for maintenance. You won't spend it every year, but some years won't be great. I'm thinking the defender for us is probably a 10k maintenance a year car. Maybe a bit more if we don't have a few good years. Here is hoping.

I take on board that it's probably not depreciating much if at all. But that only helps if you sell it.

So yes, having an EV that so far has cost virtually $0 in maintenance and running has been a relief.

EDIT: in that 15k there has been two trips Brisbane to Birdsville, four desert crossings, and one trip to fraser for a couple of weeks. Probably only 2k in Brisbane.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczPI1-tkUTGrGuIiLcJ7LfgVtWAojYnWPFwqWQHggAR1et0oMcqpINN7 VEat3kXqz79U4CNKSULdMevd_VsP1KUJpfPLwdVdEC4Ym-LPQzaa9a-1UfOEwSATQT5iTn1w7a_5qdi9gcCWmpbKxxrrOWgR=w3162-h2372-s-no?authuser=0

Oh, your paying someone to service it .... Yeah, I'd think something like a massive fuel leak as a "shrug the shoulders" and spend an hour under it with $20 of fuel line replacing the 20year old lines ... so its good for another 20years.

Suspension bushes .... I did the ****box a while back. Its bugger all really ... less than a few hundred dollars and a weekend of tinkering and its good for another 150,000kms. I'd try to spend a premium and buy the best quality rubber bushes I could find.

Aftermarket stuff I'd avoid, initially it sounds good, but in the long term it costs a lot of money. Eg: duel battery system. Now the damn car is more difficutl to service and I'm upkeeping two batteries, two lots of wiring and battery isolating system. Its all great if it gets used, I found I never used the damn thing when I fitted a 2nd battery to the ****box, so I removed it and all the extra wiring (I used a traxide system which is brilliant).

A clutch at 180,000kms would be normal service work IMO if you tow or do heavy offroad work. If its just used as a "car" you will probably wear out the car before the clutch :)

See how my thinking is different 'cos I quite enjoy the tinkering/servicing bit myself. Its a different mindset... its almost like mental therapy rather than a stress (​unless its the primary driver, then every single hold up or break down is a big stress).

Its mind blowing that you would think something simple like a defender is a $10,000 a year upkeep type vehicle ... especially when its rarely used. I wouldn't have spent $10,000 servicing every car I own ... for everything they have needed in the last 20years. And I've never heard of anyone saying Citroens, poogoes and Range Rovers are cheap vehicles to run. Just amazing.

Can I service the defender for you? I'll do it cheap, lets say $8500 a year [bigrolf] [bigrolf]

seeya
Shane L.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Unless, of course, their budget doesn't run to multiple vehicles. Or, like me, they no longer use the car every day to go to their place of employment. Not everyone can afford to keep a "trip vehicle", insured and registered, when they are not using it. "Insanity" is subjective.
Understood and I acknowledge that and I'm grateful that I can keep a trip car.

It should also be noted this situation was in part enabled because the Defender was the cheapest 4x4 on the market by a massive margin when we bought it. 46k Drive away.

Now all the basic 4x4's are very expensive with manufacturers trying (successfully in toyotas case) to charge more for less.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Oh, your paying someone to service it .... Yeah, I'd think something like a massive fuel leak as a "shrug the shoulders" and spend an hour under it with $20 of fuel line replacing the 20year old lines ... so its good for another 20years.

Suspension bushes .... I did the ****box a while back. Its bugger all really ... less than a few hundred dollars and a weekend of tinkering and its good for another 150,000kms. I'd try to spend a premium and buy the best quality rubber bushes I could find.

Aftermarket stuff I'd avoid, initially it sounds good, but in the long term it costs a lot of money. Eg: duel battery system. Now the damn car is more difficutl to service and I'm upkeeping two batteries, two lots of wiring and battery isolating system. Its all great if it gets used, I found I never used the damn thing when I fitted a 2nd battery to the ****box, so I removed it and all the extra wiring (I used a traxide system which is brilliant).

A clutch at 180,000kms would be normal service work IMO if you tow or do heavy offroad work. If its just used as a "car" you will probably wear out the car before the clutch :)

See how my thinking is different 'cos I quite enjoy the tinkering/servicing bit myself. Its a different mindset... its almost like mental therapy rather than a stress (​unless its the primary driver, then every single hold up or break down is a big stress).

Its mind blowing that you would think something simple like a defender is a $10,000 a year upkeep type vehicle ... especially when its rarely used. I wouldn't have spent $10,000 servicing every car I own ... for everything they have needed in the last 20years. And I've never heard of anyone saying Citroens, poogoes and Range Rovers are cheap vehicles to run. Just amazing.

Can I service the defender for you? I'll do it cheap, lets say $8500 a year [bigrolf] [bigrolf]

seeya
Shane L.
FYI The lines were fixed in 2016. The tank is corroded and i believe it's leaking around the pump. It's common for that brand of tank. A new fuel pump is nearly $1000 alone for an oem one. Should I put the old one back knowing it's original and probably will fail in the next few years resulting in me being stranded somehwere? I say no.

I applaud people doing their own maintenance. Bravo. I don't have the time or the facilities to do the big stuff. I do what I can.

If I was prepared to let the condition slide and go for "reactive" maintenance it would be cheaper for sure.

Also FYI it's getting rarer and rarer to see these cars still working. More is the shame. The whole 2.5 weeks out back I only saw one other defender at about Roma I think.

[DoubleChevron]

FYI The lines were fixed in 2016. The tank is corroded and i believe it's leaking around the pump. It's common for that brand of tank. A new fuel pump is nearly $1000 alone for an oem one. Should I put the old one back knowing it's original and probably will fail in the next few years resulting in me being stranded somehwere? I say no.

I applaud people doing their own maintenance. Bravo. I don't have the time or the facilities to do the big stuff. I do what I can.

If I was prepared to let the condition slide and go for "reactive" maintenance it would be cheaper for sure.

I'd leave the original pump there ... and if I was concerned carry a spare with me. You see, I don't trust any of the after market parts as far as I could kick them. Do you do beach driving? its interesting that the fuel tank would corrode in a country like australia! Most cars of its vintage have plastic fuel tanks.

$1000 for a fuel pump is nuts, you aren't confusing the diesel injection pump with the lift pump in the tank? If they aren't known for dying with age, there is no way in a million years I'd pay that [bighmmm]

To put htis into perspective, my father just purchased an old Citroen CX. Now you could spend tens of thousands of dollars "restoring" it in a vain attempt to make it reliable. Me? I'll spend about $100 of electrical connections. I know for a fact the main failure point on the cars is there wiring. So I'll spend a few weekends replacing every spade terminial on every relay housing around the battery and every electrical connection under the bonnet. This above any "restoring" will leave you with the most reliable 40year old car you could hope for. Like the defender the actual mechanical bits are very, very dependable if not messed with and "upgraded". Oh.... you haven't fitted an "upgraded" large capicty fuel tank by chance :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'd leave the original pump there ... and if I was concerned carry a spare with me. You see, I don't trust any of the after market parts as far as I could kick them. Do you do beach driving? its interesting that the fuel tank would corrode in a country like australia! Most cars of its vintage have plastic fuel tanks.

I replaced the factory plastic tank with a Long Ranger 132l tank when the car was near new. The extra 50l capacity has been exceptionally handy.

The $1000 fuel pump is the VDO original that LR use. I can get a $400 aftermarket one but like you - no way.

By beach driving I think we're up to about 7 months on fraser so far. Part of that maintenance budget was reapplying all the underbody coatings which had worn off, and a replacement ERPS which had failed. Yes, my car is a 20 year old rust free defender. Apart from the tank. [bawl]