EV general discussion

[PhilipA]

BIG NEWS
The first EV ute is being released by LDV.
I expect it will take over from Toyota Hilux immediately, if not sooner. (sarc)

LDV eT60 - is the first Aussie electric ute right for you? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl3uA-ED8j8)
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

BIG NEWS
The first EV ute is being released by LDV.
I expect it will take over from Toyota Hilux immediately, if not sooner. (sarc)

LDV eT60 - is the first Aussie electric ute right for you? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl3uA-ED8j8)
Regards PhilipA

Was that the brand that rusted on patrol - Beach surf club (https://thehonestmechaniccolorado.com/ldv-t60-problems/)? Answered myself- YES run away now![biggrin]

2wd only, Range is woeful- 2nd rate effort which is not on my shopping list [thumbsupbig]

[Tins]

Hard to say which is worse, the presentation or the subject matter, but this is difficult to watch. Food for thought if you live in a cyclone region:


https://youtu.be/lQxY2s-oIak

[PhilipA]

It is often stated that EVs have fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles so the opportunity for problems is less.
This video by Vlogger Watch JR go shows what can go wrong on a 9 year old Tesla.
Not to mention the 3or more water pumps, electric power steering ,12 volt battery.
Water pumps are often a troublesome thing on ICE cars so maybe on a Tesla also.
This ABANDONED Tesla Wont Move An INCH And The HOA Is ANGRY... Should I Buy It? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRGpxYR3ooo)
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

It is often stated that EVs have fewer moving parts than ICE vehicles so the opportunity for problems is less.
This video by Vlogger Watch JR go shows what can go wrong on a 9 year old Tesla.
Not to mention the 3or more water pumps, electric power steering ,12 volt battery.
Water pumps are often a troublesome thing on ICE cars so maybe on a Tesla also.
This ABANDONED Tesla Wont Move An INCH And The HOA Is ANGRY... Should I Buy It? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRGpxYR3ooo)
Regards PhilipA

Cut the losses and put a Barra in it.

[NavyDiver]

Cut the losses and put a Barra in it.

Fishy :)

https://fishingbooker.com/blog/media/2022/03/Barramundi-fishing-3.jpg

[Tins]

Fishy :)

https://fishingbooker.com/blog/media/2022/03/Barramundi-fishing-3.jpg

"Yeah, well the Barramundi is a bloody big fish"..... Mick Dundee.

[NavyDiver]

"Yeah, well the Barramundi is a bloody big fish"..... Mick Dundee.

I was going to grumble about a ICE bus broken down blocking a road for several hours yesterday but the fish seemed more on the Barra theme John[thumbsupbig]

A bloody big fish is for me a LOT bigger- now I am bragging Think Salt water sashimi at well over 60KG- I do dream of 200kg[thumbsupbig] I let all sharks go so PB may be over that already [thumbsupbig]

PS after Mario's comment on my smelly noisy dirty two stroke I think I have an answer Unlike a American option it looks like a doable swap but the current battery tech and lack of fuel cell tech would make my boat inshore only

EVOY
[B]Breeze™ 120+ HP

https://www.evoy.no/wp-content/uploads/elementor/thumbs/web_outdoor_crop2-1-pp33f2y19cn6rocajgfq5johtgos0ofut78il4jj7k.png
Evoy electric and powerful outboard motor systems (https://www.evoy.no/evoy-outboard-electric-boat-motor/)
Motor is great- Battery tech is not YET offshore range wise for this black duck. Motors from Norway - Love to visit

[Tombie]

Ouch!!!! Way heavier than my engines and that’s without battery packs (and 2 motors in my case).

I’ll stick with the planned 4st upgrades, they’re so quiet it doesn’t bother me. Plus my 200km range helps [emoji6]

[PhilipA]

BTW, in the latest "Road Ahead" by the NRMA They advise that they have commissioned 2 rescue vehicles with generators to charge out of range EVs enough to get to the next charger.

One will be in Wollongong and I cannot remember the other but have a feeling Goulbourne.

I threw it away in disbelief when they tested an EV towing a box trailer and stated that it only lost 25% range and opined that yes that an EV can tow but maybe not a caravan because of the air resistance.
haven't they read any USA or UK tests where they lose over 50% of range towing anything larger than abox trailer? Hoovie lost over 50% towing a car trailer with a Ford Lightning.
My D2 loses about 30% towing my Coromal 505 offroad van from about 10.5 to 13.5 L per 100Km.
I hope no dewy eyed City-zen goes out and buys one for their occasional caravan towing. Law Suits all around.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

BTW, in the latest "Road Ahead" by the NRMA They advise that they have commissioned 2 rescue vehicles with generators to charge out of range EVs enough to get to the next charger.

One will be in Wollongong and I cannot remember the other but have a feeling Goulbourne.

I threw it away in disbelief when they tested an EV towing a box trailer and stated that it only lost 25% range and opined that yes that an EV can tow but maybe not a caravan because of the air resistance.
haven't they read any USA or UK tests where they lose over 50% of range towing anything larger than abox trailer? Hoovie lost over 50% towing a car trailer with a Ford Lightning.
My D2 loses about 30% towing my Coromal 505 offroad van from about 10.5 to 13.5 L per 100Km.
I hope no dewy eyed City-zen goes out and buys one for their occasional caravan towing. Law Suits all around.
Regards PhilipA

Can't find it ATM but there's a pic going around of a Musk special on the side of the road with the portable genset from his caravan charging it up. Irony, much? Saving the planet? Still, I'll bet it can accelerate faster than my OKA, so that's ok then.

[NavyDiver]

Who'''s next? Chinese EVs drive Stellantis''' Jeep off the road | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/whos-next-chinese-evs-drive-stellantis-jeep-off-road-2022-11-28/)

Most cars we know have been flat footed plus it seems. Noted Landrover- Jag brakes on for everything due to computer chips!

world is changing quickly in some places. Surprised to see BMW in front of VW.

https://graphics.reuters.com/AUTOS-CHINA/STELLANTIS/znpnbenzbpl/chart.png

[NavyDiver]

Got a email today. Bright red warning my car will be de registered! Seemed a bit threatening to me so I called Vic roads to cheack if the due date for paying was still 2/1/2023?

It is the due date. My thoughts or feed back that the threat from them is very inappropriate was agreed with by Jeff from Vicraods. Jeff did not have any process to receive or escalate the feedback/complaint. He suggested I can write to them

I may have some fun escalating this to stop the ministry of silly walks winning [thumbsupbig]

Edit- Mia Culpa- it is due now- Date on another vicroads document said "Your invoice must be paid by 28/11/2022 to avoid penalties."
the 2/1/2023 is the delayed warning date!













Notice of Intention to Suspend Vehicle Registration EV#####
























Dear James ######,

This is your final opportunity to pay your road-user charge for vehicle EV###### to avoid suspension.

As the operator of a zero or low emission vehicle (ZLEV), you are subject to the new distance-based road-user charge. You need to pay your road-user charge.





What do you need to do?





You need to pay your road-user charge by 02 January 2023.

If you fail to comply, your vehicle’s registration will be suspended on 03 January 2023.

You can make your payment by:
· signing up for a myVicRoads account and submitting online, or
· visiting a (COVIDSafe) VicRoads Customer Service Centre with your odometer photo.





Your right to lodge an objection to this decision





If you are dissatisfied with the decision to suspend the registration of your vehicle because the Secretary considers that you have paid your road-user charge within the required time you may lodge an objection.

The objection must be made to the Secretary to the Department of Transport in writing and must state fully and in detail the grounds for objection. Objections can be sent to internalreview@roads.vic.gov.au (internalreview@roads.vic.gov.au).

You have 28 days from the date of this notice in which to lodge an objection. Lodging an objection does not automatically pause the suspension. As the objector you bear the onus of proving your case. In deciding your objection, the Secretary may seek additional information from you.





What to do if the suspension takes effect





If the suspension takes effect, you may avoid the cancellation of the registration and have the suspension lifted by paying the road-user charge before 25 January 2023.

If you fail to take any action, the registration of the vehicle may be cancelled.





Relevant legislation





Part 3 – Suspension and cancellation of registration, and Part 4 – Objections and reviews, of the Zero and Low Emission Vehicle Distance-based Charge Act 2021.

For more information on the ZLEV road-user charge or Customer Service Centre locations, visit www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/road-user-charge (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/road-user-charge).

Please disregard this reminder if you have paid your road-user charge in the last 7 days.

Yours sincerely

Director - Customer Service Delivery
Delegate of the Secretary to the Department of Transport






















[B]Get in touch





file:///C:/Users/james/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png dtf.vic.gov.au (https://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/)


file:///C:/Users/james/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png vicroads.vic.gov.au (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/)


file:///C:/Users/james/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.png 13 11 71 (tel:131171)

[4bee]

I'm not sure who is really going to cash in on the most on the EV surge.

the average mugwump is being led to believe that if everybody drives EV's then some sort of green salvation will happen to the planet.

that is just sheer and pure bull**** perpetrated by the contributors to EV production.

remember from basic school science....energy is neither created nor destroyed.....the ICE car makes it's energy under its bonnet and dumps out it's exhaust....the EV makes it's energy from factories and electricity generating sources and still dumps it's waste from chimneys into the atmosphere.

the manufacturing footprint is massive and really no greener , just shifted sideways , to be seen from a different view.

As my old boss used to say, there is always a cost to somebody "You can't get summat for nothing

[4bee]

Got a email today. Bright red warning my car will be de registered! Seemed a bit threatening to me so I called Vic roads to cheack if the due date for paying was still 2/1/2023?

It is the due date. My thoughts or feed back that the threat from them is very inappropriate was agreed with by Jeff from Vicraods. Jeff did not have any process to receive or escalate the feedback/complaint. He suggested I can write to them

I may have some fun escalating this to stop the ministry of silly walks winning [thumbsupbig]

Edit- Mia Culpa- it is due now- Date on another vicroads document said "Your invoice must be paid by 28/11/2022 to avoid penalties."
the 2/1/2023 is the delayed warning date!













Notice of Intention to Suspend Vehicle Registration EV#####























Dear James ######,

This is your final opportunity to pay your road-user charge for vehicle EV###### to avoid suspension.

As the operator of a zero or low emission vehicle (ZLEV), you are subject to the new distance-based road-user charge. You need to pay your road-user charge.





What do you need to do?





You need to pay your road-user charge by 02 January 2023.

If you fail to comply, your vehicle’s registration will be suspended on 03 January 2023.

You can make your payment by:
· signing up for a myVicRoads account and submitting online, or
· visiting a (COVIDSafe) VicRoads Customer Service Centre with your odometer photo.





Your right to lodge an objection to this decision





If you are dissatisfied with the decision to suspend the registration of your vehicle because the Secretary considers that you have paid your road-user charge within the required time you may lodge an objection.

The objection must be made to the Secretary to the Department of Transport in writing and must state fully and in detail the grounds for objection. Objections can be sent to internalreview@roads.vic.gov.au (internalreview@roads.vic.gov.au).

You have 28 days from the date of this notice in which to lodge an objection. Lodging an objection does not automatically pause the suspension. As the objector you bear the onus of proving your case. In deciding your objection, the Secretary may seek additional information from you.





What to do if the suspension takes effect





If the suspension takes effect, you may avoid the cancellation of the registration and have the suspension lifted by paying the road-user charge before 25 January 2023.

If you fail to take any action, the registration of the vehicle may be cancelled.





Relevant legislation





Part 3 – Suspension and cancellation of registration, and Part 4 – Objections and reviews, of the Zero and Low Emission Vehicle Distance-based Charge Act 2021.

For more information on the ZLEV road-user charge or Customer Service Centre locations, visit www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/road-user-charge (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/road-user-charge).

Please disregard this reminder if you have paid your road-user charge in the last 7 days.

Yours sincerely

Director - Customer Service Delivery
Delegate of the Secretary to the Department of Transport






















[B]Get in touch





file:///C:/Users/james/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png dtf.vic.gov.au (https://www.dtf.vic.gov.au/)


file:///C:/Users/james/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.png vicroads.vic.gov.au (https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/)


file:///C:/Users/james/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image004.png 13 11 71 (tel:131171)


















How dare they threaten folk? They must have excellent hearing. [bigrolf]

[Tins]

They must have excellent hearing.

I've been in James' EV. Bloody hell, you'd think they'd fit quieter tyres... Or driver, for that matter[smilebigeye]


Funny how us ICE driving plebs don't receive such high minded threats.

[4bee]

I've been in James' EV. Bloody hell, you'd think they'd fit quieter tyres... Or driver, for that matter[smilebigeye]


Funny how us ICE driving plebs don't receive such high minded threats.


That'd be the Driver then, he insists on singing those olde Sea Shanties from his days of yore.[bighmmm]

[Tins]

That'd be the Driver then, he insists on singing those olde Sea Shanties from his days of yore.[bighmmm]

I can't see James as a Yo Ho Ho sort of guy... Besides, given what he did in his days of yore he'd have to bubble, rather than sing.

[4bee]

I can't see James as a Yo Ho Ho sort of guy... Besides, given what he did in his days of yore he'd have to bubble, rather than sing.

It all helps especially when the Rum issue is all gone. I know I know, the RN dropped this some years ago & it was probably not a thing in the RAN when said Matelot was bubbling & gurgling.

[Tins]

It all helps especially when the Rum issue is all gone. I know I know, the RN dropped this some years ago & it was probably not a thing in the RAN when said Matelot was bubbling & gurgling.

Did the RAN do a rum issue? I know the RN used to, but I fort our lot were stuck with warm beer.

[4bee]

Did the RAN do a rum issue? I know the RN used to, but I fort our lot were stuck with warm beer.


Apparently not.

[JDNSW]

Getting back on to EVs rather than rum or the Navy......

My son phones me several times a day. This afternoon he started talking about EVs. An EV would make sense for him as a commuting vehicle. His typical round trip is 130km/day, currently in a diesel I30 - which he is quite happy with. To move the whole family, as when coming here for Christmas, he has a D2 seven seater. His wife has a Getz and his eldest daughter a Nissan Micra, both very second hand.

He is very interested in going electric, but sees several problems.

1. He would have to charge at night. This concerns him, as with a recently installed house battery to go with his solar, they are now getting power bills of zero or less, and he would prefer to keep it that way. He works at the National Library, and there is no way of charging there.

2. He has never paid more than $10,000 for a car - which leaves the choice of EVs pretty slim to put it mildly. He wanted me to tell him prices were coming down. Obviously, they aren't.

I think his situation exemplifies the problems with EVs for many people.

[RANDLOVER]

I'm not sure who is really going to cash in on the most on the EV surge.

the average mugwump is being led to believe that if everybody drives EV's then some sort of green salvation will happen to the planet.

that is just sheer and pure bull**** perpetrated by the contributors to EV production.

remember from basic school science....energy is neither created nor destroyed.....the ICE car makes it's energy under its bonnet and dumps out it's exhaust....the EV makes it's energy from factories and electricity generating sources and still dumps it's waste from chimneys into the atmosphere.

the manufacturing footprint is massive and really no greener , just shifted sideways , to be seen from a different view.

ICE vehicles are very inefficient with a lot of energy being converted into heat, also they can't really recover energy used in braking also converting this to heat. EV's however are only going to get greener as the power grid becomes more renewable.

[PhilipA]

I commend this scientific discussion on the BMW Hydrogen car to forum memebers who believe that hydrogen is the future for cars.
One of the interesting things is that the hydrogen if liquid will boil off if the car is not used so it is forbidden to garage the car!
This will apply to every type of hydrogen car that stores it in liquid form. And really liquid form is the only way if you look at the video.
BMW's Hydrogen V12 Engine Is A Hilarious Engineering Stunt - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouW9_jyZck)
Regards PhilipA

[ramblingboy42]

quote..Did the RAN do a rum issue? I know the RN used to, but I fort our lot were stuck with warm beer.

when I was a grunt I found out that that RAINF had a rum ration and questioned my CSM who took appropriate action and had said ration issued to the diggers. We usually carried it the 84mm ammo cases and the CSM or QM issued it out on exercises or special occasions such as Anzac Day and Long Tan Day.

......but for a long time the diggers never got it.....who got it? I can guess.....

[NavyDiver]

I had one Splice the Main Brace- Canadian from UK stock in a very odd bond store- It was 100 year old plus when I was 17 years old [thumbsupbig]!
All ships including Australian seem to have one "1945 HMS Urania"
Splice the mainbrace - HMS Urania - Naval Historical Society of Australia (https://navyhistory.org.au/splice-the-mainbrace-hms-urania/)

She was a oil burner like HMAS Vampire tech. Battery or hydrogen would be much easier[biggrin]

[Narangga]

Is Tesla's total dominance of the electric vehicle market coming to an end? (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/30/is-teslas-total-dominance-of-the-electric-vehicle-market-coming-to-an-end/)

[scarry]

Is Tesla's total dominance of the electric vehicle market coming to an end? (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/30/is-teslas-total-dominance-of-the-electric-vehicle-market-coming-to-an-end/)

Definitely,once the big players get their act together.The biggest companies know the new vehicle market the best,they didnt get to where they are,just by falling out of bed.They also have the best resources,some maybe a bit behind with Ev's,but i am sure they will be ready to go,once,Ev's take off,if they ever do.

[p38arover]

Here's a Melbourne company partnering with a UK company to convert Land Rovers and other vehicles to electric. Says they are booked up with orders until 2024.

Australian EV conversion startup merges with UK firm to turn classic cars electric | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/01/jaunt-motors-zero-ev-merger-fellten-to-convert-classic-cars-vehicles-electric)

Classic electric vehicles for adventure — Jaunt (https://www.jauntmotors.com/)

and

Fellten - Electricity. Engineered. (https://www.fellten.com/)


https://youtu.be/hHP8GCZ0Suo

[RANDLOVER]

quote..Did the RAN do a rum issue? I know the RN used to, but I fort our lot were stuck with warm beer.

when I was a grunt I found out that that RAINF had a rum ration and questioned my CSM who took appropriate action and had said ration issued to the diggers. We usually carried it the 84mm ammo cases and the CSM or QM issued it out on exercises or special occasions such as Anzac Day and Long Tan Day.

......but for a long time the diggers never got it.....who got it? I can guess.....

When I was in the army we noticed how we would get coffee in summer and cordial in winter with our meals. One day while I was at the mess collecting smoko for the guys in our Series Land Rover run about, I saw one of the sergeants loading a case of biscuits into his car when we were getting jam sandwiches.

[Narangga]

I commend this scientific discussion on the BMW Hydrogen car to forum memebers who believe that hydrogen is the future for cars.
One of the interesting things is that the hydrogen if liquid will boil off if the car is not used so it is forbidden to garage the car!
This will apply to every type of hydrogen car that stores it in liquid form. And really liquid form is the only way if you look at the video.
BMW's Hydrogen V12 Engine Is A Hilarious Engineering Stunt - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AouW9_jyZck)
Regards PhilipA

Or else

The days of the hydrogen car are already over (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/01/the-days-of-the-hydrogen-car-are-already-over/)

[RANDLOVER]

Or else

The days of the hydrogen car are already over (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/01/the-days-of-the-hydrogen-car-are-already-over/)

I see your or else and raise you another reason hydrogen cars won't really be viable unless we have very abundant renewable energy for it's manufacture and that reason is efficiency. This is explained by Saul Griffith in his book "The Big Switch" the audio version of which can be heard for free here, The Big Switch Audio Edition (rewiringaustralia.org) (https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/thebigswitch/audio) the relevant part is chapter 4 from approx the 37th to the 47th minute. A diagram can also be seen of this namely Figure 4.6 which shows,
all electric is about 83% used for driving and 17 % waste whereas green hydrogen is 37% used for driving and 63% waste.

[NavyDiver]

Or else

The days of the hydrogen car are already over (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/01/the-days-of-the-hydrogen-car-are-already-over/)

This was very interesting- Multiple Hydrogen, Battery and ICE buses with details studied. (https://open.spotify.com/episode/2Bv3BzLiWVhABaCRVEM8OC'si=304e5a95443042db)

Some interesting change of plans in the ratio - plan to have 70% Battery buses changed to 70% Hydrogen for a reason I suspect very important and that I note IF trying to get to a tight wad freebie EV charger- They are getting very very busy and cannot do more than a number per day. That makes a fuel fill up and go for Hydrogen the go to for the transit operator in this pod cast.

They may be a bit hippy yet the data is good information.

Warning
Skip the first minute of the pod cast- they play the most annoying canned music I have ever heard[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Is Tesla's total dominance of the electric vehicle market coming to an end? (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/30/is-teslas-total-dominance-of-the-electric-vehicle-market-coming-to-an-end/)

Given Tesla only make any profit from selling green credits to other OEM's, and not from selling EV's - once the opposition start making EV's on mass and no longer require the credits, Tesla's business model goes tits up. Is anyone really surprised that Electric Jesus is selling so many of his shares?

[PhilipA]

You know Hydrogen buses are not a new idea.
I have posted before a long time ago that I used to be friends with the CEO of BOC which is now Air Liquide.
He told me that the worst decision and biggest disaster of his career was getting involved with the Perth trial of hydrogen powered ICE buses, waaaay back in the 20th century.
Apparently the overriding problem was that the buses required pure Hydrogen which was a very rare and expensive commodity. The usual Hydrogen was commercial grade which was 95% or so pure and this completely stuffed up the bus operating system.
I wonder how pure the new "green" hydrogen will be after storage and whether fuel cells will be as picky as previously. My non specialist feeling is that it will be, judging on some of the stuff I have read on Hydrogen fuel cells.
Regards PhilipA

[101RRS]

That research may be all valid, but the issues raised have not manifested itself in the ACT Government Fleet of 20 Hyundai hydrogen cell vehicles and the other two on the road in the ACT. The ACT Govt Fleet has been in use for 18 months.

[NavyDiver]

Horses for Courses of course [thumbsupbig]


Odd the poms are so keen on developing- supporting Hydrogen Hilux? No mater as options BEV, HEV, FCEV & PHEV are all rolling the right way- PHEV do not rock my boat[biggrin]

The US bus example is interesting. The right tool for the job is key. Here I think large long range FCEV will be the key to changes. Especially for those who tow heavy or long range. The Tesla truck hype is funny to watch. Still chuckle thinking of 500 odd trucks lined up waiting to charge![bigwhistle]


"Toyota Motor Manufacturing UK is heading up the consortium, which is being backed by £5.7 million (around $7 million) of industry funding and £5.6 million from the U.K. government. Thatcham Research, D2H, ETL and Ricardo are also involved in the project.
Although the initiative is being led by TMUK, Toyota said “technical support” would come from Toyota Motor Europe R&D.
“Within the scope of the funding bid, initial prototype Hilux vehicles will be produced at Burnaston during 2023,” it added. “Once successful performance results have been secured, the intention is to prepare the vehicle for small series production.”

Honda and BMW"

Toyota secures funding to develop hydrogen fuel cell version of Hilux (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/02/toyota-secures-funding-to-develop-hydrogen-fuel-cell-version-of-hilux.html)


EDIT Toyota above Honda and BMW below. A leak became a bit of a flood :)



Hydrogen-electric Honda CR-V announced for North America (https://www.drive.com.au/news/hydrogen-electric-honda-cr-v-announced-for-north-america/)

 BMW iX5 Hydrogen at the Research and Innovation Centre’s pilot plant in Munich (https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/bmw-group-commences-production-of-small-series-hydrogen-powered-model/)

[JDNSW]

Given Tesla only make any profit from selling green credits to other OEM's, and not from selling EV's - once the opposition start making EV's on mass and no longer require the credits, Tesla's business model goes tits up. Is anyone really surprised that Electric Jesus is selling so many of his shares?

A look at the world's motor industry over the last hundred and twenty years would suggest that Tesla relying on subsidies is perfectly normal, especially for a new company. Just for a few examples - how long is it since the US government bailed out nearly all US car manufacturers? Would Holden have ever actually made a a profit (or even existed) without protection and subsidies? Remember British Leyland?

It is quite likely that the only car company in the world actually capable of operating without subsidy and/or protection today is Toyota - and I suspect that even that capability is a bit shaky if looked at too closely!

[PhilipA]

Ah the joy of an old broken Tesla.
Pretty extreme example but what could happen to some poor sod who buys an old Tesla.

Is My Cheap Tesla SCRAP?! Everything Important Is BROKEN - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdMaQyRJneo)

Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

What the war and other factors are doing to energy sources in Europe.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11494991/Switzerland-BAN-electric-cars-roads-power-shortages.html?ito=facebook_share_article-facebook_preferred-
related&fbclid=IwAR1NEDcX6bZwcBMQZ3fp_8Ah4XXmPTnEdDvyyOnT0 SoLuZaqZ24vHMHnd5Q

[4bee]

When I was in the army we noticed how we would get coffee in summer and cordial in winter with our meals. One day while I was at the mess collecting smoko for the guys in our Series Land Rover run about, I saw one of the sergeants loading a case of biscuits into his car when we were getting jam sandwiches.


That figures rand so I won't even mention Peter Brock's casual visit to the then TAA's Bedarra Island by yacht & left with a few cases of nice wine according to staff there it seemed to be gratis. Oh ****, I just did.[bigrolf]
The bar was an open bar for guests so there was no control of "lost" stock.

[PhilipA]

Here is another video from Hoovie on his experience with a Ford F150Lightning.
Range almost halved at 32F.

WINTER battery performance on my Ford Lightning EV Pickup is another DISASTER. Range cut IN HALF??? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8gH52gKejE)
Regards PhilipA
I can just imagine the trendy skiers at Thredbo trying to get back to Canberra for a charge in their EV.

[Tins]

I can just imagine the trendy skiers at Thredbo trying to get back to Canberra for a charge in their EV.

Thredbo? Canberra? Love to see how they'd get on from Hotham....

[NavyDiver]

Here is another video from Hoovie on his experience with a Ford F150Lightning.
Range almost halved at 32F.

WINTER battery performance on my Ford Lightning EV Pickup is another DISASTER. Range cut IN HALF??? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8gH52gKejE)
Regards PhilipA
I can just imagine the trendy skiers at Thredbo trying to get back to Canberra for a charge in their EV.

Fully agree with the shocking results IF i leave AC on in my silly MG trying to do longer MELB- Port Fairy with few charge options!

Current lithium battery tech and my one is a good 20% range hit or a bit more! I have to turn AC on for defrosting windscreen at times and always turn it off again ASAP.

Range hit in our ICE exists in cold, speed and towing yet not really a problem with 800km starting range for my D3 at least[thumbsupbig] You just pay for the extra fuel we use.

Thredbo to Canberra would challenge my short assed car if I put AC on 213km is my 0% mark at normal highway speeds. Some fanatics on youtube (who may be salesmen?) with EV MG's suggest they can do 300km plus- I believe them [B]IF they moved at 60kph or slower and did not use AC or start/stop a lot[biggrin]

I have not seen a Significant range change with sub 10degree trips over winter. Noting I a very close to the range edge in summer or winter in the 30,000km Chemo Express car[biggrin]

The roll out of high speed charge places is good yet I assume they will be overwhelmed given the increased number of EVs appearing Saw a polestar for the first time on a road this morning.

The 100% hydrogen issue you mentioned in a prior post was applicable to rather old tech fuel cells. The differences between to 10 year old fuel cell buses and the new FCEV in the US- California example was significant. Some 2010 FCEV buses from Canada did stop with older technology and very high hydrogen prices (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-transit-s-90m-hydrogen-bus-fleet-to-be-sold-off-converted-to-diesel-1.2861060)


Hydrogen prices Optimistic? "As electric and gas utilities contemplate investing in low-carbon hydrogen and the technology to produce it, the high price of today's supplies and equipment — and the potential for cost declines — are major considerations.
At the CERAWeek by IHS Markit conference, hydrogen experts and stakeholders expressed confidence that the cost curve will indeed bend in the coming years. The March 2 panel on low-carbon hydrogen production and technologies offered a detailed breakdown of the forces behind the price trend. Norwegian electrolyzer-maker Nel ASA in January announced a goal of producing green hydrogen at $1.50 per kilogram by 2025. Malaysian oil and gas giant Petroliam Nasional Bhd., or Petronas, is targeting hydrogen production costs from the nation's hydropower and solar resources in a range of $1/kg to $2/kg, Petronas Technology Ventures CEO Mahpuzah Abai said during the panel.
"

Still suspect A Nifty WA company will be the best Hydrogen option as power prices are proving highly variable. The Victorian Bass straight GAS fields are a very good example as is a WA coal mine and Gas and electricity high prices which are already up 15-20% here and that's not about to stop!

Proof is needed of course. Big inefficient yank tanks have never been economical ICE or BEV

[NavyDiver]

Electric trucks could reduce peak hour traffic and climate emissions if they were exempt from curfews, transport experts say
I would say more than a few would appreciate a EV garbage truck at 4am [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Illegal apparently [bigwhistle] Electric trucks could reduce peak hour traffic and climate emissions if they were exempt from curfews, transport experts say - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-06/qld-ev-electric-vehicle-strategy-trucks-volvo-emissions/101665874?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)

Have to chuckle at stupid some times

[Narangga]

"Key turning point:" Express freight giant makes biggest order for electric trucks in Australia (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/06/express-freight-giant-makes-biggest-order-for-electric-trucks-in-australia/)

[Narangga]

Here is another video from Hoovie on his experience with a Ford F150Lightning.
Range almost halved at 32F.

WINTER battery performance on my Ford Lightning EV Pickup is another DISASTER. Range cut IN HALF??? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8gH52gKejE)
Regards PhilipA
I can just imagine the trendy skiers at Thredbo trying to get back to Canberra for a charge in their EV.


Thredbo? Canberra? Love to see how they'd get on from Hotham....

But isn't that the joy of skiing? Being at the top of the slope and freewheeling down hill? [tonguewink]

[Tins]

But isn't that the joy of skiing? Being at the top of the slope and freewheeling down hill? [tonguewink]

Everyone has to get to the bottom at some point, wet and freezing.. And overdressed.

[NavyDiver]

Everyone has to get to the bottom at some point, wet and freezing.. And overdressed.

Are you meaning driving down John? Skiing down has almost everyone stripping or un zipping at the least. Never ever freezing when actually skiing[biggrin]

The point I assume was EV regenerative braking in EV would add a LOT of charge by the time you got off a mountain[biggrin] the ICE types just pay for brake pad wear and tear [bigrolf] One quote I found was "Heading down the mountains from the supercharger at Tenaya Lodge, I was averaging -21WHr/mi over the previous 30 miles."

Up the hill may have been over 21Whr used of course- especially if my AC was on [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

Here is another recent article on hydrogen cars.
It is interesting to me that noone seems to mention boil off and that the tanks will be empty pretty quickly from "boil off" if not driven.
An interesting aside is that it is governments who are mainly funding the research and it is Toyota GB who are working with funding from the UK government.
"We are from the government and are here to help you."
Toyota's New Hydrogen-Powered Pickup Is a Testbed for Sustainable Future Trucks (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyotas-new-hydrogen-powered-pickup-is-a-testbed-for-sustainable-future-trucks)

Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

The point I assume was EV regenerative braking in EV would add a LOT of charge by the time you got off a mountain

Nowhere near as much as it used going up, unless of course the laws of thermodynamics are in fact merely guidelines. Hint: they aren't.


the ICE types just pay for brake pad wear and tear

I agree, there are lots of poor drivers out there, ICE or not. I'll bet there are a lot of EV drivers who overuse their brakes as well.


Up the hill may have been over 21Whr used of course- especially if my AC was on

Which brings us back to the point of EV performance at low temperatures.

[NavyDiver]

Nowhere near as much as it used going up, unless of course the laws of thermodynamics are in fact merely guidelines. Hint: they aren't.



I agree, there are lots of poor drivers out there, ICE or not. I'll bet there are a lot of EV drivers who overuse their brakes as well.



Which brings us back to the point of EV performance at low temperatures.

On the money with all- Note that regen is DC to DC charge so faster than my sad sack 7kWh AC to Dc used mostly if the sun is shining or midnight to 6am if I must

My Disco is off for a Hume Freeway joy ride- Mel-Sydney return Full load of 7 young types a Party BUS [thumbsupbig]

Interesting to consider it will be 2+ tanks. If the the EV was a 7 seater- (its not yet!). Currently 'Free' fast charging in NSW would make the trip cost about $0 or even if paid for a lot less than my Disco! NRMA Electric Car Fast Charger Stations | Australia EV Network Map (https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/electric-vehicles/charging-network)

My shocker MG every 200ish km for an hour charge would make it a slow trip. A 500km plus EV versions would make it a meal break very low cost trip. Still spins me out that my Disco costs a LOT to service and the MG is yet to have its 2nd service. I did drop in to Ritta ladies and Gents yesterday to get a replacement seat belt part.

They are so busy you have to book a few weeks head for a service! The end of the world is not here yet :)

I do not think anyone think current battery tech is perfect yet neither is the actual cost of EVs. The new FBT free bit and salary sacrificing will see a lot more sold as stocks allow[thumbsupbig]

$30,000 odd tax savings is a BIG incentive. The Luxury car tax bit is a PITA as it will limit the best EV's from the tax incentives.

Tax dodge moving from a UTE to other options [biggrin]
[B]Electric vehicles are better than a ute for dodging tax

EVs can now take pride of place alongside the Ford Ranger, Toyota HiLux, Isuzu D-MAX and other big utility vehicles as a favourite way for Australians to sidestep the taxman. (Cut from AFR!)

[Tins]

Giving people tax "savings" is just another form of subsidy, which only means that those who can't take advantage of that have to pay for those who can. " Let them eat cake ".

[4bee]

On the money with all- Note that regen is DC to DC charge so faster than my sad sack 7kWh AC to Dc used mostly if the sun is shining or midnight to 6am if I must

My Disco is off for a Hume Freeway joy ride- Mel-Sydney return Full load of 7 young types a Party BUS [thumbsupbig]

Interesting to consider it will be 2+ tanks. If the the EV was a 7 seater- (its not yet!). Currently 'Free' fast charging in NSW would make the trip cost about $0 or even if paid for a lot less than my Disco! NRMA Electric Car Fast Charger Stations | Australia EV Network Map (https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/electric-vehicles/charging-network)

My shocker MG every 200ish km for an hour charge would make it a slow trip. A 500km plus EV versions would make it a meal break very low cost trip. Still spins me out that my Disco costs a LOT to service and the MG is yet to have its 2nd service. I did drop in to Ritta ladies and Gents yesterday to get a replacement seat belt part.

They are so busy you have to book a few weeks head for a service! The end of the world is not here yet :)

I do not think anyone think current battery tech is perfect yet neither is the actual cost of EVs. The new FBT free bit and salary sacrificing will see a lot more sold as stocks allow[thumbsupbig]

$30,000 odd tax savings is a BIG incentive. The Luxury car tax bit is a PITA as it will limit the best EV's from the tax incentives.

Tax dodge moving from a UTE to other options [biggrin]
[B]Electric vehicles are better than a ute for dodging tax

EVs can now take pride of place alongside the Ford Ranger, Toyota HiLux, Isuzu D-MAX and other big utility vehicles as a favourite way for Australians to sidestep the taxman. (Cut from AFR!)

They are so busy you have to book a few weeks head for a service! The end of the world is not here yet :)

[bigrolf] Shouldn't this be in my post re GP appointments?:Rolling::BigCry:

[Tins]

Currently 'Free' fast charging in NSW would make the trip cost about $0 or even if paid for a lot less than my Disco!



That part simply isn't true. Sure, you won't be out of pocket on the day, but somebody will. Everyone who pays a power bill is paying for your trip, because you can bet your house that the power generators aren't giving it away.

Once EVs reach a tipping point things will change. Anyone who thinks that they will be getting 'free' personal transport in the future is out of their mind. Meanwhile, the poor folk have to pay $2.20 a litre for diesel, or walk. They can't afford to buy an EV which they will have to throw away in ten years when it is obsolete. They were encouraged to buy diesels, not more than 10-15 years ago. But the folk who can lease, or take a car in a package, they're ok, right? Who cares about pensioners?

"Let them eat cake". The Guillotine was invented because of that attitude. Let's hope we don't get that far, eh James? [bigwhistle]

[cjc_td5]

With the new FBT excemptions coming in, we're looking seriously at updating the wife's S3 to an EV. Most travel is 10kms each way to work every day, but the fortnightly trips to Perth for the day (400km return trip) are the killer... We were serious about a Volvo x40 EV, but the highway range is only around 350km, down from 440km in urban driving. As much as we'd like to update, an EV is just not suitable for regional travel.

Looks like it may be a BMW 330e as a PHEV that can can at least cover enough needs. Or a Mitsubishi Outlander (which are truly ugly so have no chance...)

[NavyDiver]

That part simply isn't true. Sure, you won't be out of pocket on the day, but somebody will. Everyone who pays a power bill is paying for your trip, because you can bet your house that the power generators aren't giving it away.

Once EVs reach a tipping point things will change. Anyone who thinks that they will be getting 'free' personal transport in the future is out of their mind. Meanwhile, the poor folk have to pay $2.20 a litre for diesel, or walk. They can't afford to buy an EV which they will have to throw away in ten years when it is obsolete. They were encouraged to buy diesels, not more than 10-15 years ago. But the folk who can lease, or take a car in a package, they're ok, right? Who cares about pensioners?

"Let them eat cake". The Guillotine was invented because of that attitude. Let's hope we don't get that far, eh James? [bigwhistle]t

Some one always pays John. I can get power for free from a few places - I know someone is paying!

Why do you think you through away in 10 years? Several of our oldest Landrovers have a nifty new life with battery power now sir[biggrin]

Fully appreciate cost at present are high John. That the second hand market will get a heap of 3ish year old still under warranty EVs due to ex lease cars via the FBT rulz change will bring prices for the masses soon mate. Let them eat Roo, venison, rabbits, pippies, crayfish mate or warrigal greens for free. Cakes are high sugar[bigrolf]

[Tins]

Some one always pays John.

Yep. Those who can least afford it.


Why do you think you through away in 10 years?

Nothing. My newest car is 17 years old. My newest LR is 22. My OKA is 30. I have only ever owned one new car, and I don't intend to buy another.



will bring prices for the masses soon mate

Unless they also bring 5 minute fills, availability of refuelling pretty much anywhere, ability to be home serviced and repaired they are no bloody use to me.

If I lived and travelled only in a city, and I could be absolutely assured that the batteries were not made with cobalt mined by child slaves, and I knew that my use would not be at the cost of others ( $$$, or grid problems ) I would have one in a heartbeat if I could afford one. But I don't, I hate cities, and I can't be assured of those things, and I can't afford one, so I won't be getting one. I don't see why I have to subsidise yours. Not you, personally, James, anyone's.

I think EVs are amazing, in their natural environment. If the grid can sustain them, then I'm all for them as city cars, preferably when they move on from lithium, which is a very limited resource in todays terms. But, I look on the EV industry's promises to save us all with the same suspicion that I use in assessing pre election promises from politicians. I'm surprised they don't kiss babies.

Like "renewable energy", I think EVs should stand on their own unsubsidised feet.

[NavyDiver]

Yep. Those who can least afford it.

Like "renewable energy", I think EVs should stand on their own unsubsidised feet.

The highest tax payer are? Hint not the poor people John[biggrin] Note of course old cars can be both economical and expensive My current D3 ice engine and prior D3 gear box fails go a little way to demonstrate that to myself at least.

Subsidies are interesting. Billions or trillions of Subsidies in coal, gas, oil of course [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] We all think think EVs should stand on their own unsubsidised feet which is why some of us are happy they will be cheaper due to NOT being subject to the extra taxes UTES are already largely exempt from [biggrin]

PS Extra taxes are almost always paid by poor for luxury cars? NOT.

The sin taxes are of course avoidable like your smart choice sir (alcohol, tobacco...)

Hydrogen-powered Toyota HiLux prototypes to be built in the UK (https://www.drive.com.au/news/hydrogen-toyota-hilux-prototypes-built-in-uk/)FCEV Hilux in the news again Why in the UK? Governments and state government compete to attract jobs. Trillions of $$$ is waiting for a large scale long term investment (stated by Brookfield renewable trust (https://bep.brookfield.com/)) That is a Billionaires play ground or really your super funds money looking for a safe long term investment that will not be a stranded asset in medium/longer term which is the case with oil, gas and coal.

Disco driving into Sydney as I type $420 in fuel cost so far in the tank. Some tired young types promised to bring my car back for fishing and diving needed next week for Xmas stash- Crayfish, sea urchin, sea cucumbers , snapper, king fish and green lip abalone on my to get xmas list- My EV is not there yet :)

[PhilipA]

Subsidies are interesting. Billions or trillions of Subsidies in coal, gas, oil of course [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

mate you keep on saying this but it is just not true.
What is holding up the economy right now?
It is tax revenue from oil, gas,coal, and iron ore royalties and taxation revenue.
Literally hundreds of billions of dollars a year and never been higher than now.
This is the only thing that enables the various State and Federal Governments to waste untold billions on renewable and EV subsidies.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

t

Some one always pays John. I can get power for free from a few places - I know someone is paying!

Why do you think you through away in 10 years? Several of our oldest Landrovers have a nifty new life with battery power now sir[biggrin]

Fully appreciate cost at present are high John. That the second hand market will get a heap of 3ish year old still under warranty EVs due to ex lease cars via the FBT rulz change will bring prices for the masses soon mate. Let them eat Roo, venison, rabbits, pippies, crayfish mate or warrigal greens for free. Cakes are high sugar[bigrolf]

Unfortunately I can't see prices of new EV's becoming affordable any time soon - second hand units will be cheaper but who's going to buy them out of warranty given the replacement battery cost when needed - not me that's for sure.

Lithium is still going up and forecasts show this will continue until mid decade then another year or two lag in production before we start to see the costs of battery packs coming down and a year or 2 after that before they fall below current levels so there's only one way new EV pricing is going for the next 5 to 6 years and with everything else going up as fast as it is and families starting to feel the pinch from rising interest rates - I can't see EV's being taken up by any masses - they will continue to be for those well off people that want to feel good about themselves. Sales will continue to grow yes, but mass take up isn't happening any time soon.

And all of that is BEFORE anyone works out how to charge them all - I'll flogged that dead horse enough, I'll just sit back and wait until the world catches up and figures this out as well.

[NavyDiver]

[bigwhistle]

mate you keep on saying this but it is just not true.
What is holding up the economy right now?
It is tax revenue from oil, gas,coal, and iron ore royalties and taxation revenue.
Literally hundreds of billions of dollars a year and never been higher than now.
This is the only thing that enables the various State and Federal Governments to waste untold billions on renewable and EV subsidies.
Regards PhilipA
Bit confused where you find billions on renewable and Ev subsidies Significantly more taxpayer funds in Utes and oil than those Philip. not historical billions+++ just current [bigrolf]


"Additional $250m pledge for Australia’s two remaining oil refineries" i should be quiet perhaps as " new report from investment bank Morgan Stanley (https://www.monexsecurities.com.au/insights/news/au-market-news/latest-2-asx-shares-to-be-upgraded-by-brokers-to-buy-today/) suggests shareholders in Australian fuel giant Ampol (https://www.ampol.com.au/), one of the two recipients of the bailout, could also reap the benefits of corporate welfare — potentially receiving as much as $900 million in cash payouts over the next few years."[bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]


"Chevron has previously been in the ATO’s crosshairs over its tax arrangements, [B]many gas companies also have very large deductions available due to the gigantic amounts of money they have poured into developing new fields in Australia."

"Alan Kohler: Australia is placing its recovery hopes on the trays of utes — and it’s idiotic" Link to that funny one! (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2021/06/11/utes-tax-write-offs/) "The biggest item in the federal budget in May was the $18.1 billion in business tax write-offs for capital expenditure" Mr Kohler touches on EVs in that one

History is even kinder to Huge Multinationals
Try April 2013 "Holden takes $2.1bn toll on taxpayers" "[B]Price we pay: Holden’s government funding equates to about $2200 for each locally made vehicle rolling off the company’s production line since 2001."

US states "U.S. direct subsidies to the fossil fuel industry are estimated at roughly $20.5 billion per year (http://priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2017/10/OCI_US-Fossil-Fuel-Subs-2015-16_Final_Oct2017.pdf), including $14.7 billion from federal subsidies and $5.8 billion from state subsidies. When externalities such as health, environmental, and climate factors are included, it is estimated the United States subsidizes fossil fuels to the tune of $649 billion per year (https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2019/05/02/Global-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-Remain-Large-An-Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509). Eliminating fossil fuel subsidies would save taxpayer dollars while simultaneously reducing greenhouse gas emissions." Link (https://www.eesi.org/papers/view/fact-sheet-proposals-to-reduce-fossil-fuel-subsidies-2021) Might be overstatement as it tries to include health costs from the smelly stuff our non EV Landrovers make It is both carcinogenic and loads of C02 of course. Had to put it that was as several subsidized very cool EV Landies are here who travel with out emissions perhaps.

The subsidies come even from me as I filled up my Disco before it left to terrorize Sydney last night. Traffic report was not kind to several sleepy vic on their ongoing NSW raid[biggrin]

Fully agree one US type car which is also made in China, Has got a lot of US $$$. As does his space ship and flame throwers perhaps. Just kidding on the flame throwers.[thumbsupbig]


https://youtu.be/GbH3_feTpAw

EDIT - Appreciate Vic is likely to via rebooted SEC for wind and solar not Nuclear sadly yet, likely to be in the government power game again. Not at all sure that's a good idea myself!

Edit 2- the irony of "[B]many gas companies also have very large deductions available due to the gigantic amounts of money they have poured into developing new fields in Australia" could be in GRUMPY sods or current affairs of course. Our gas bill is up 40% and going higher!!!

What our taxes get for taxpayers is some times a PITA [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

Unfortunately I can't see prices of new EV's becoming affordable any time soon - second hand units will be cheaper but who's going to buy them out of warranty given the replacement battery cost when needed - not me that's for sure.

Lithium is still going up and forecasts show this will continue until mid decade then another year or two lag in production before we start to see the costs of battery packs coming down and a year or 2 after that before they fall below current levels so there's only one way new EV pricing is going for the next 5 to 6 years and with everything else going up as fast as it is and families starting to feel the pinch from rising interest rates - I can't see EV's being taken up by any masses - they will continue to be for those well off people that want to feel good about themselves. Sales will continue to grow yes, but mass take up isn't happening any time soon.

And all of that is BEFORE anyone works out how to charge them all - I'll flogged that dead horse enough, I'll just sit back and wait until the world catches up and figures this out as well.

Your right it will take time to see price parity. Lithium and graphite are in my investment spotlight - mostly LOTS of Graphite due to WA Hydrogen [biggrin]

Charging is going to be the main reason I want hydrogen as did that Bus company I posted. Prices at the upper end on the other hand are very interesting MUSK mobile mod Y is 120ish I hear. More change from that than a middle upper level ICE BMW. Merc.....

I guess I can be a guinea pig in 8 years trying to see if I can swap to solid state batteries or even better options which may be here then if we still have the two feel good cars here.

Inflation is biting everyone hard. Not a thing to celebrate at all.

BIG NEW. Telsa app just told me I might be able to pay to charge my silly MG! It is even asking me for my credit card. I'll update next long drive I take via Colac IF and I mean IF it works. Just checked. Knox PVT hospital would allow me to pay $0.22 per kWh. I cannot see any other in Vic at all. NSW looks barren as well which seems odd as I think it was them that kick the can on Tesla.

Off to KNOX for fun[thumbsupbig]

[JDNSW]

...... many gas companies also have very large deductions available due to the gigantic amounts of money they have poured into developing new fields in Australia."

.....

Are you suggesting that the companies should not be able to claim depreciation on expenditure to explore for and develop something that produces profits? Perhaps worth bearing in mind that a large proportion of this expenditure was committed, if not actually spent, years ago - as one example, I am aware of one gas field, now in the planning stages, was discovered over forty years ago. The capital used for development is in many cases borrowed. Of course you can argue that since the price of gas has increased, this should cover the development cost.

But this ignores the fact that if the contract with the government did not allow for extra profit if the price goes up, the developer would expect a subsidy (or equivalent) if the price went down; which is at present a real risk if Australia were to cease production of gas, or the world turns away from it during the life of the field (consider that Bass Strait gas fields have lasted around fifty years and are still producing). If the deal offered to explorers did not include the possible upside as well as the risks, the exploration and development simply would not have happened.

(The price of domestic gas is a different issue - WA was able to make sure this was not a problem, the other states and the Commonwealth have something to answer for.

[4bee]

The highest tax payer are? Hint not the poor people John Note of course old cars can be both economical and expensive My current D3 ice engine and prior D3 gear box fails go a little way to demonstrate that to myself at least.

Subsidies are interesting. Billions or trillions of Subsidies in coal, gas, oil of course [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] We all think think EVs should stand on their own unsubsidised feet which is why some of us are happy they will be cheaper due to NOT being subject to the extra taxes UTES are already largely exempt from [biggrin]

PS Extra taxes are almost always paid by poor for luxury cars? NOT.

The sin taxes are of course avoidable like your smart choice sir (alcohol, tobacco...)

[B]Hydrogen-powered Toyota HiLux prototypes to be built in the UK (https://www.drive.com.au/news/hydrogen-toyota-hilux-prototypes-built-in-uk/)

FCEV Hilux in the news again Why in the UK? Governments and state government compete to attract jobs. Trillions of $$$ is waiting for a large scale long term investment (stated by Brookfield renewable trust (https://bep.brookfield.com/)) That is a Billionaires play ground or really your super funds money looking for a safe long term investment that will not be a stranded asset in medium/longer term which is the case with oil, gas and coal.

Disco driving into Sydney as I type $420 in fuel cost so far in the tank. Some tired young types promised to bring my car back for fishing and diving needed next week for Xmas stash- Crayfish, sea urchin, sea cucumbers , snapper, king fish and green lip abalone on my to get xmas list- My EV is not there yet :)

Are you taking orders?[biggrin] No, not the Basil Fawlty ones.



FWIW I'll even let you plug into the Power & you can't say fairer than that, guvnor.

[NavyDiver]

Are you suggesting that the companies should not be able to claim depreciation on expenditure to explore for and develop something that produces profits? Perhaps worth bearing in mind that a large proportion of this expenditure was committed, if not actually spent, years ago - as one example, I am aware of one gas field, now in the planning stages, was discovered over forty years ago. The capital used for development is in many cases borrowed. Of course you can argue that since the price of gas has increased, this should cover the development cost.

But this ignores the fact that if the contract with the government did not allow for extra profit if the price goes up, the developer would expect a subsidy (or equivalent) if the price went down; which is at present a real risk if Australia were to cease production of gas, or the world turns away from it during the life of the field (consider that Bass Strait gas fields have lasted around fifty years and are still producing). If the deal offered to explorers did not include the possible upside as well as the risks, the exploration and development simply would not have happened.

(The price of domestic gas is a different issue - WA was able to make sure this was not a problem, the other states and the Commonwealth have something to answer for.

Fully agree WA took a good possition on Gas extracted from WA for WA. Not suggesting other states or federal types were as smart nor suggesting taxpayers subsidies for anyone taken with out providing first use of our resources for you

Exploration for oil and gas hand outs are rather generous right now if you look "Minister for Resources and Water Keith Pitt has announced the Coalition Government has entered three grant agreements worth a combined $19.4 million to support gas exploration in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Sub-Basin (https://www.minister.industry.gov.au/ministers/pitt/media-releases/government-getting-job-gas-exploration)."

My point is not about normal tax deductions- Did not suggest that at all[thumbsupbig] Phillip tossed the comment in I responded to Proof is $$$$$$ not odd claims
Kn
EDIT Mr Musk is chuckling at me. NO fast charging for non Telsa EV Knox charging is paid parking and pay for a[B] tesla slow charger you can have for free at a near by shopping center[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Are you taking orders?[biggrin] No, not the Basil Fawlty ones.

Sir Yes Sir


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQAXX08A-s

[PhilipA]

An interesting article by a Wellington bus driver on EV buses.
Electric Buses – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/12/13/electric-buses/)

Regards PhilipA

[JDNSW]

........
Exploration for oil and gas hand outs are rather generous right now if you look "Minister for Resources and Water Keith Pitt has announced the Coalition Government has entered three grant agreements worth a combined $19.4 million to support gas exploration in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Sub-Basin (https://www.minister.industry.gov.au/ministers/pitt/media-releases/government-getting-job-gas-exploration)."
.....

The NT government thinks that this is necessary to get anyone to explore there. Not being up to date with the geology in the area, I can't really offer an opinion, although from what I know, I certainly would not spend any of my money exploring there.

But the NT government is probably not looking at the probability of exploration success (although I have no doubt someone has shown them some very optimistic possibilities), but is really more interested in economic activity, treating it the same as a lot of the things they subsidise.

Of course, I would not even suggest that the idea came from some of their pushy mates.

[NavyDiver]

An interesting article by a Wellington bus driver on EV buses.
Electric Buses – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/12/13/electric-buses/)

Regards PhilipA

He is very different to me Phillip He states
"Having to recharge the bus takes time out of my rest break – I lose at least 10 minutes that I would otherwise spend relaxing with a cuppa and stretching my legs on a fine day."

I ran a good ten km several times while charging, got a few nice meals, Drinks and read a book once or twice [biggrin]

His range anxiety is a issue for a psychologist[bigwhistle]I cannot fit a game of golf in at RACV Torquay as its a fast charger Alas or good? I am a shocking golfer [bigrolf][bigrolf]

[vnx205]

It may well be that that is the opinion of that Wellington bus driver.
However other drivers may have a different opinion.
It is also worth remembering that anything on "Watt's Up With That" needs to be treated with suspicion unless confirmed by more trustworthy sources.
182491

[PhilipA]

It is also worth remembering that anything on "Watt's Up With That" needs to be treated with suspicion unless confirmed by more trustworthy sources.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/alternate-energies/182491d1671008820t-ev-general-discussion-2022-12-14-20.02.52-mediabiasfactcheck.com-e44193584337.jpg (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/alternate-energies/182491d1671008820-ev-general-discussion-2022-12-14-20.02.52-mediabiasfactcheck.com-e44193584337.jpg)
You have not attributed your quote. Please follow forum guidelines.
As a comment, playing the man means you lose.

Regards PhilipA

[Narangga]

New NSW funding round to focus on bigger and faster EV charging stations (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/14/new-nsw-funding-round-to-focus-on-bigger-and-faster-ev-charging-stations/)

[Narangga]

The NT government thinks that this is necessary to get anyone to explore there. Not being up to date with the geology in the area, I can't really offer an opinion, although from what I know, I certainly would not spend any of my money exploring there.

But the NT government is probably not looking at the probability of exploration success (although I have no doubt someone has shown them some very optimistic possibilities), but is really more interested in economic activity, treating it the same as a lot of the things they subsidise.

Of course, I would not even suggest that the idea came from some of their pushy mates.

It's not actually the NT Government John as the link was to the Feb 22 announcement by the Commonwealth minister (previous coalition government) of their input of 19.4million. If they do that and then something happens it has a greater impact on the NT economy.

"Minister for Resources and Water Keith Pitt has announced the Coalition Government has entered three grant agreements worth a combined $19.4 million to support gas exploration in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Sub-Basin.

Development and investment in the Beetaloo could be a game-changer for the Northern Territory, creating up to 6,000 jobs by 2040, supporting industrial diversification and providing stable tax and royalty streams for years to come,” Minister Pitt said."

There have been companies out there exploring for years (probably decades) and part of the reason the Northern Gas Pipeline was built by Jemena (Tennant Creek to Mt Isa) was because it was probable that someon across the Beetaloo would want to tap into it. An internet search for the Beetaloo sub-basin will return results from a number of companies or joint ventures that have been out there exploring already.

[vnx205]

Watts Up with That - Media Bias/Fact Check (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/watts-up-with-that/)

182494

Happy now?

[JDNSW]

It's not actually the NT Government John as the link was to the Feb 22 announcement by the Commonwealth minister (previous coalition government) of their input of 19.4million. If they do that and then something happens it has a greater impact on the NT economy.

"Minister for Resources and Water Keith Pitt has announced the Coalition Government has entered three grant agreements worth a combined $19.4 million to support gas exploration in the Northern Territory’s Beetaloo Sub-Basin.

Development and investment in the Beetaloo could be a game-changer for the Northern Territory, creating up to 6,000 jobs by 2040, supporting industrial diversification and providing stable tax and royalty streams for years to come,” Minister Pitt said."

There have been companies out there exploring for years (probably decades) and part of the reason the Northern Gas Pipeline was built by Jemena (Tennant Creek to Mt Isa) was because it was probable that someon across the Beetaloo would want to tap into it. An internet search for the Beetaloo sub-basin will return results from a number of companies or joint ventures that have been out there exploring already.

I am well aware that companies are exploring there, and have been for years. But that does not mean that there is a good chance of discovering anything that is able to be profitably produced. You need to recognise that resource exploration necessarily involves exploring in places where success is low probability - if you do enough of these the idea is that sooner or later there will be a discovery that pays for all the unsuccessful exploration by being very profitable. But whether governments should be putting up money to support this in a specific area is very much another question. And this is regardless of whether it is territory or Federal.

[Narangga]

Yes I take your point John.

Industry says gas from the Beetaloo Basin could solve Australia'''s energy crisis. Some energy analysts question that claim - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-20/beetaloo-basin-gas-solution-to-national-energy-crisis-questioned/101249492)

All companies express that it's a big amount of gas but until it is acutally flowing through a piepeline...

Exploration and appraisals continue to show encouraging results. Industry analysis suggests that most exploration will be finalised by 2023 and the Australian Government is working to support accelerated final investment decisions by 2025 or earlier. - NTG website

Interestingly Sun Cables 17 - 20 GW solar farm is virtually next door.

[PhilipA]

Happy now?
So you would rather believe some crackpot woke site with no credibility than the actual account of a real person who has actually experienced what it is like to drive an electric bus for a living?

Good luck to you. I have this bridge shaped like a coathanger to sell, Interested?
Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Steady on a little people, the Xmas period sillies are starting to show around here.

Let’s have nice discussions and debates.

[Tins]

He is very different to me Phillip He states
"Having to recharge the bus takes time out of my rest break – I lose at least 10 minutes that I would otherwise spend relaxing with a cuppa and stretching my legs on a fine day."

I ran a good ten km several times while charging, got a few nice meals, Drinks and read a book once or twice [biggrin]

His range anxiety is a issue for a psychologist[bigwhistle]I cannot fit a game of golf in at RACV Torquay as its a fast charger Alas or good? I am a shocking golfer [bigrolf][bigrolf]

You've never driven a bus, have you James?

[NavyDiver]

You've never driven a bus, have you James?

"Its Everybody 'fault'" 1989?

Among our worst disasters

At 10:27am on Thursday, December 28, 1989 an earthquake measuring 5.6 on the Richter scale struck Newcastle.
It remains one of Australia's worst natural disasters (https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2014/12/23/4153765.htm), claiming 14 lives, hospitalising 160 people and causing $4 billion in damage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4PH6FoG7jU).


Newcastle earth quake- Some IDIOT suggested we support the fund raiser concert for it. Yep I did!

60 sailors paid me. Transport dept O.I.C. and I chatted about the bus. They gave me the keys saying I had to drive as they had paid to go.

That was a bus full of very ****ed sailors. Freeway was jammed plus. People getting off the bus to run ahead to go behind trees or find a pub to carry a carton or several back to the bus[bigwhistle]

Its about an hour from Sydney to Newcastle- I think I was driving for three plus hours both ways[bigrolf][bigrolf] All the rotten transport "MT" people- everyone last of them was on the bus laughing, drinking and having a ball[bawl][bawl][bawl]

We did raise a bit of cash happily. I got a beer very late that night back on a South Head Naval base[thumbsupbig]

Not a regular bus drive John. A few other events had me driving again [biggrin]

EDIT- EV stuck in traffic for several hours last night- GRRR yet noticed this morning charge level was 24km loss of range despite the several hour stuck in a traffic jam. I wonder in hindsight how the buss to Newcastle fuel consumption was?

EDIT 2

Solid state battery breakthrough could slash EV costs and recharging time (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/13/solid-state-battery-breakthrough-could-slash-ev-costs-and-recharging-time/)
Edit 3 [biggrin] Cannot find the link- VW suggest more than 1/2 its cars will be EV by 2026! Sounds like a lot more EVs to me? Not another edit. Noticed 5 BYD evs today! Never seen one before! I seldom see another MGEV. I have seen one or two only.

BYD are clearly making waves!

[Tins]

This might be amazing, but I know I'm not ready for it..


https://youtu.be/9nF0K2nJ7N8

[Tins]

"Its Everybody 'fault'" 1989?

Among our worst disasters

At 10:27am on Thursday, December 28, 1989 an earthquake measuring 5.6 on the Richter scale struck Newcastle.
It remains one of Australia's worst natural disasters (https://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2014/12/23/4153765.htm), claiming 14 lives, hospitalising 160 people and causing $4 billion in damage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4PH6FoG7jU).


Newcastle earth quake- Some IDIOT suggested we support the fund raiser concert for it. Yep I did!

60 sailors paid me. Transport dept O.I.C. and I chatted about the bus. They gave me the keys saying I had to drive as they had paid to go.

That was a bus full of very ****ed sailors. Freeway was jammed plus. People getting off the bus to run ahead to go behind trees or find a pub to carry a carton or several back to the bus

Its about an hour from Sydney to Newcastle- I think I was driving for three plus hours both ways[bigrolf][bigrolf] All the rotten transport "MT" people- everyone last of them was on the bus laughing, drinking and having a ball[bawl][bawl][bawl]

We did raise a bit of cash happily. I got a beer very late that night back on a South Head Naval base[thumbsupbig]

Not a regular bus drive John. A few other events had me driving again [biggrin]

EDIT- EV stuck in traffic for several hours last night- GRRR yet noticed this morning charge level was 24km loss of range despite the several hour stuck in a traffic jam. I wonder in hindsight how the buss to Newcastle fuel consumption was?

EDIT 2

[B]Solid state battery breakthrough could slash EV costs and recharging time (https://thedriven.io/2022/12/13/solid-state-battery-breakthrough-could-slash-ev-costs-and-recharging-time/)


Edit 3 [biggrin] Cannot find the link- VW suggest more than 1/2 its cars will be EV by 2026! Sounds like a lot more EVs to me? Not another edit. Noticed 5 BYD evs today! Never seen one before! I seldom see another MGEV. I have seen one or two only.

BYD are clearly making waves!

I don't know about any of that. What I do know is that bus driving, contrary to popular opinion, can be a mentally taxing job, with little opportunity to rest and clear the mind of all the abuse and frustration one has been subjected to in the course of an often 10 hour shift. I personally have been abused and physically assaulted by motorists, cyclists, drunken teenage mobs, general passengers, and allegedly innocent bystanders.
Drivers are not encouraged to go for a "run", as the average bus is not very secure, and also the driver could suffer an injury while "running" and be unable to complete his/her duties.
I don't think those 10 minutes the Wellington guy was talking about would be too much to ask for.
BTW, the Volvanias we drove could easily complete a day's work without refuelling. They could do two days or more, but nightly refuelling was company policy.

Oh, and the drunken revellers? Yep, been there, done that. Many, many times. Still, Oaks Day had its moments[bigwhistle]

[Narangga]

Steady on a little people, the Xmas period sillies are starting to show around here.

Let’s have nice discussions and debates.

Mango Season...

[PhilipA]

Not strictly about EVs but a good presentation on alternative battery technology, mainly Zinc Bromide which looks very promising for large scale storage. About aussie companies also Redflow and Gelion.

137 Year Old Battery Tech May Be The Future of Energy Storage - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wsSRq-bEm0)
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Could this be the first of many for the upcoming expected hard European Winter and energy shortages?

https://www.drive.com.au/news/switzerland-considers-ev-bans-during-power-shortages/

[Tins]

Could this be the first of many for the upcoming expected hard European Winter and energy shortages?

https://www.drive.com.au/news/switzerland-considers-ev-bans-during-power-shortages/

Given that similar measures are being taken in California I'm not sure the article is blaming the right people.

[NavyDiver]

I don't know about any of that. What I do know is that bus driving, contrary to popular opinion, can be a mentally taxing job, with little opportunity to rest and clear the mind of all the abuse and frustration one has been subjected to in the course of an often 10 hour shift. I personally have been abused and physically assaulted by motorists, cyclists, drunken teenage mobs, general passengers, and allegedly innocent bystanders.
Drivers are not encouraged to go for a "run", as the average bus is not very secure, and also the driver could suffer an injury while "running" and be unable to complete his/her duties.
I don't think those 10 minutes the Wellington guy was talking about would be too much to ask for.
BTW, the Volvanias we drove could easily complete a day's work without refuelling. They could do two days or more, but nightly refuelling was company policy.

Oh, and the drunken revellers? Yep, been there, done that. Many, many times. Still, Oaks Day had its moments[bigwhistle]]]

Suspect the 10min comment I made or running/walking/stretching legs while charging tossed some PTSD tyoe issues at you re bus driving I am sorry John.

Abuse of bus, truck or just vanilla road ragers is appalling

Love my RFX flow batteries Phillip. Saved my bacon several times [thumbsupbig]

Mangoes, Cherries and more season - not crayfish, abalone and sea urchin for me sadly as going under the knife for a minor touch up again tomorrow.

I have tried to go Diving every day for the last week but failed- Its bloody windy out sea ward and I have no wish to sink my boat. I am fine getting deep and wet myself[biggrin] Just not next week post cosmetic surgery [bigrolf]- Its a little hernia patch job really.


Saw two more BYD this morning. Must have been a very big ship load recently!

Saw "Rivian pulls out of Mercedes-Benz van deal (https://www.autocar.co.nz/rivian-pulls-out-of-mercedes-benz-van-deal/)" NZ version of the yarn.

Tojo hilux concept in Thailand (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/toyota-hilux-ev-concept-revealed-in-thailand) Very little detail of course[bighmmm]


Other Tojo news is mildly more interesting[bigwhistle] "Toyota is expected to outline adjustments to its electric-vehicle strategy to key suppliers early next year, as it races to narrow the gap on price and performance with industry leaders Tesla and BYD, two people with knowledge of the work said.
(https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/toyota-may-delay-some-ev-programs-report-says)
The automaker is expected to detail the EV plan changes through early 2026, communicating the adjustments to major suppliers, the people said on condition of anonymity as the information is confidential. (https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/toyota-may-delay-some-ev-programs-report-says)

"

What might be much more interesting is the race in battery and Hydrogen gen sets in my book. 720 electrical chat re 5kWH roll out flexabl solar panels is cool yet I know the output of my current PV still means several hours + sunshine to charge my 2 10kWh redflow flow batteries or my quirky little MG ev.

Look away now John!
Just kidding mate!

Five new BEV buses in Cairns are a part of "The introduction of the new buses in north Queensland supports the state government’s commitment that every new bus in southeast Queensland will be zero-emission from 2025 (https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/142130/kinetic-launches-new-battery-electric-buses-in-cairns-queensland/), with regional implementation to begin between 2025 and 2030. It also supports Kinetic’s commitment to achieve net zero emissions (https://www.intelligenttransport.com/transport-news/140278/melbournes-zero-emissions-bus-trial-electric-buses/) by 2035." (Cairns is clearly NOT south east QLD)

Bus drivers in QLD comments welcome!!

[NavyDiver]

EV Cupra spotted yesterday. Spanish -VW type. They allegedly have a 500km range

Battery is 2 times as big as mine price is has a 5 in front [bigwhistle]

A Lifestyle and Sports Car Brand with a Passion for Racing | CUPRA (https://www.cupraofficial.com.au/?idcmp=sea:10_BRAND_EXACT:GOOGLE:CUPRA:cupra:NA:NA :cupra&dns=true&&keyword=cupra&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpeyz6of_-wIVEgByCh22tgtPEAAYASAAEgLITfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

[Narangga]

EV Cupra spotted yesterday. Spanish -VW type. They allegedly have a 500km range

Battery is 2 times as big as mine price is has a 5 in front [bigwhistle]

A Lifestyle and Sports Car Brand with a Passion for Racing | CUPRA (https://www.cupraofficial.com.au/?idcmp=sea:10_BRAND_EXACT:GOOGLE:CUPRA:cupra:NA:NA :cupra&dns=true&&keyword=cupra&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpeyz6of_-wIVEgByCh22tgtPEAAYASAAEgLITfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

Cupra Born Australian pricing confirmed - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/cupra-born-aussie-pricing-confirmed/)

511km


using 77 kWh of batteries :eek:

[spudfan]

Cannot see many being able to afford this
Everrati Launches EV Conversion For Range Rover Classic And Defender (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/lifestyle/shopping/everrati-launches-ev-conversion-for-range-rover-classic-and-defender/ar-AA15oCXV?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f3f8d0f976f64af3ba64944b5db79e1c)

[Narangga]

Nissan leading vehicle-to-grid charge in South Australia | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/nissan-leading-vehicle-to-grid-charge-in-south-australia)

[Homestar]

Cupra Born Australian pricing confirmed - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/cupra-born-aussie-pricing-confirmed/)

511km


using 77 kWh of batteries :eek:

While I'm sure I'll be accused of being an EV hater again - those numbers don't add up. I got to around 400KM with my calculations and if you extrapolate the data from the 62KWh version you get 420KM as a best case scenario, but the 77KWh version is heavier so my calcs sound pretty close. Stick the AC on and knock 100KM off that.

It really annoys me that the OEM's are fudging the figures - they aren't doing the industry any favors by doing this.

CUPRA Born 150 kW - 58 kWh price and specifications - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/car/1516/CUPRA-Born-150-kW---58-kWh)

[ramblingboy42]

the industry has always fudged its fuel endurance figures, just like the tyre industry eg cooper tyres , the oil industry latest adds have your car making more power. liars liars liars

[superquag]

IF. you can afford these.... then choppering in a diesel gen-set every evening while out in the boonies ... will be chump-change.[bigwhistle]

[p38arover]

There's also this mob in Malbourne:

Classic electric vehicles for adventure — Jaunt (https://www.jauntmotors.com/)

[Tins]

IF. you can afford these.... then choppering in a diesel gen-set every evening while out in the boonies ... will be chump-change.[bigwhistle]

It's ok. Choppers run on wind power....

[Narangga]

While I'm sure I'll be accused of being an EV hater again - those numbers don't add up. I got to around 400KM with my calculations and if you extrapolate the data from the 62KWh version you get 420KM as a best case scenario, but the 77KWh version is heavier so my calcs sound pretty close. Stick the AC on and knock 100KM off that.

It really annoys me that the OEM's are fudging the figures - they aren't doing the industry any favors by doing this.

CUPRA Born 150 kW - 58 kWh price and specifications - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/car/1516/CUPRA-Born-150-kW---58-kWh)

I would call you a realist... even though most manufacturers aren't as has been highlighted below.


the industry has always fudged its fuel endurance figures, just like the tyre industry eg cooper tyres , the oil industry latest adds have your car making more power. liars liars liars

[Tins]

While I'm sure I'll be accused of being an EV hater again -

Any opinion contrary to the current zeitgeist will see you attached with a label. You're either with us or agin us. Ask me how I know[bigwhistle].

I, for one, do not hate EVs. In fact I think they are amazing within certain parameters. However, I'm rarely convinced by evangelism in any form, and that's how I look on most debates on "alternative" energies of any kind. If they are as good as we are supposed to believe, why do they need subsidies?

[NavyDiver]

While I'm sure I'll be accused of being an EV hater again - those numbers don't add up.


Other views are and should be welcome Sir!

Cut from another thread alternate view such as "[B]Toyota Still Isn't All In on EV Adoption" "Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda (https://jalopnik.com/toyota-still-isnt-all-in-on-ev-adoption-1849601175) who the Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223'mod=hp_lista_pos2) reports is still on the fence about going all-in on EVs. While most automakers have been laying out their future EV plans, Toyota has seemed to remain committed (https://jalopnik.com/toyota-isnt-quite-ready-to-boost-ev-output-1849704163) to hybrids and hydrogen. Toyoda says that EVs shouldn’t be the only path forward. Hybrids and hydrogen, he believes, are great alternatives, especially as EV prices remain high — something Toyota pointed out. Toyoda says that he has tried to convince both industry and government officials of this and described the efforts as tiring."

Mr Toyoda is not alone "Executives at both Nissan and Mazda have voiced scepticism on whether or not jumping all-in on EVs was too rushed or the right answer. Nissan CEO Makoto Uchida admitted the company may have been too aggressive with the first gen of the Leaf; Mazda has taken a more blatant and sceptical stance regarding EVs"

Mr Tesla spooked investors yesterday as we (https://twitter.com/ReutersBiz/status/1606058248590589953'ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1606058248590589953%7Ctwgr% 5E14c3e69283081fb558ece776168cc6addd100ec5%7Ctwcon %5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2022-12-23%2Fasx-markets-business-live-news-date-year%2F101769156)ll

"Tesla investors were spooked overnight because the electric car maker decided to double its price discounts on some US models for North American customers.
[B]It started offering discounts of $US7,500 on Model 3 and Model Y vehicles delivered in the US this month.
It's good for car buyers, but Tesla investors are worried its a sign of lower demand as economies slow down. "

Santa reindeer power is not for all of us of course :)

[NavyDiver]

Any opinion contrary to the current zeitgeist will see you attached with a label. You're either with us or agin us. Ask me how I know[bigwhistle].

I, for one, do not hate EVs. In fact I think they are amazing within certain parameters. However, I'm rarely convinced by evangelism in any form, and that's how I look on most debates on "alternative" energies of any kind. If they are as good as we are supposed to believe, why do they need subsidies?

As a former Altar boy I still find sermons extremely boring unless we get a right of reply John, A few cool honestly non kiddy fiddler Priest types and nuns I know mostly agree with the many contradictions I found with them. My Aunt is excluded as I have to pretend its all cool [bighmmm]

Evangelist for or against religion including C02 and EVs can be a PITA[biggrin] Excuse me if I am being flippant or offensive please.

A gin post in C affairs "naughty bits" could be photo shopped to the PRO or Con EV types perhaps? Like you I think some attributes of your cool beast are amazing. We all have strengths and weakness. EV, BEV, FECV and Hybrid types have the same issues

Over posting excuse- Three long weeks until I am medically permitted to run again is driving me nuts. Excuse me over posting- R&R with my feet up has never been my thing. [thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

The writing's on the wall, folks! The reign of the internal combustion engine is coming to an end! With the EV space filling up with high-performance cars from Porsche, Tesla, and others, it's time to face the cruel reality! Even Dodge has taken the plunge now, which is a hard pill to swallow because it was single-handedly keeping the "no replacement for displacement" momentum going all these years. Many people who have always preferred internal combustion engines are unhappy about this shift. However, Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis seems unfazed by the scenario and is quite convinced that nothing will stop this change. He is prepared to "crash the party and do it differently than everybody else", and the Dodge Daytona SRT EV Concept is proof of that. It's still refreshing to see a CEO who isn't afraid to take risks and innovate, even in the face of criticism. With that much confidence, even purists and Mopar fans who are already skeptical and sad about the end of ICE-powered cars might have to change their minds about the muscle EV. But, there is also that nudging question: Will the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT survive the market? Will The Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust In The The Dodge Charger Daytona SRT EV Win Over The Purists?


(https://www.topspeed.com/the-fratzonic-chambered-exhaust-on-the-ev-charger-daytona-srt-concept-will-it-win-over-purists/?utm_source=syndication)Edit- above was cut from a new where a US police departments was not happy with the change from V8 cars to EV versions. It was not just PRO or anti [thumbsupbig]

[JDNSW]

I wonder if we will see the same diehard internal combustion engine enthusiast companies keeping on like we saw the steam enthusiasts (Stanley, Doble) in the 1920s?

[Narangga]

Very likely John.

Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle)

[Tins]

The writing's on the wall, folks!


(https://www.topspeed.com/the-fratzonic-chambered-exhaust-on-the-ev-charger-daytona-srt-concept-will-it-win-over-purists/?utm_source=syndication)

Really? Toyota doesn't think so: Toyota Chief Says ‘Silent Majority’ Has Doubts About Pursuing Only EVs - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223)

[NavyDiver]

Really? Toyota doesn't think so: Toyota Chief Says ‘Silent Majority’ Has Doubts About Pursuing Only EVs - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223)

I posted that John [biggrin] Really- and that cut was from an news item where the US police suggesting the beast of a Dodge EV is not wanted to replace the V8 dodge police cars - Honest[thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

Really? Toyota doesn't think so: Toyota Chief Says ‘Silent Majority’ Has Doubts About Pursuing Only EVs - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223)

I think many know pursuing only EV’s is a huge risk,as they will never suit every vehicle owner.

As I have said before,Toyota know the world new vehicle market better than anyone else,that is why they are in the position they are now in,with vehicle sales almost double the next in the line.
The bigger companies also have the advantage of adapting to what the market wants,quicker than the smaller ones.

The smaller ones,LR is a good example,will probably struggle with all the changes that are now happening,or going to happen in the next few years.
Tesla may be in the same boat,once the big manufacturers start selling EV’s,to the masses,if they ever do,they will be huge competition.

[Tins]

The car was traveling at about 55 miles per hour when it shifted into the far left lane on Interstate 80 and braked abruptly, slowing down to about 20 miles per hour. A series of vehicles traveling at normal highway speeds ended up crashing into that Tesla and then one another as a result. Four ambulances were called to the scene, and two lanes of traffic were closed for an hour and a half as the vehicles and their passengers were removed.

Tesla driver blames eight-car pileup on Full Self-Driving (https://apple.news/ATGRpuyL9SnWfLZPXUpceQg)

[4bee]

So you would rather believe some crackpot woke site with no credibility than the actual account of a real person who has actually experienced what it is like to drive an electric bus for a living?

Good luck to you. I have this bridge shaped like a coathanger to sell, Interested?
Regards PhilipA


The sale price would depend on how many & whose flags are flying on it.

[4bee]

The writing's on the wall, folks! The reign of the internal combustion engine is coming to an end! With the EV space filling up with high-performance cars from Porsche, Tesla, and others, it's time to face the cruel reality! Even Dodge has taken the plunge now, which is a hard pill to swallow because it was single-handedly keeping the "no replacement for displacement" momentum going all these years. Many people who have always preferred internal combustion engines are unhappy about this shift. However, Dodge CEO Tim Kuniskis seems unfazed by the scenario and is quite convinced that nothing will stop this change. He is prepared to "crash the party and do it differently than everybody else", and the Dodge Daytona SRT EV Concept is proof of that. It's still refreshing to see a CEO who isn't afraid to take risks and innovate, even in the face of criticism. With that much confidence, even purists and Mopar fans who are already skeptical and sad about the end of ICE-powered cars might have to change their minds about the muscle EV. But, there is also that nudging question: Will the Dodge Charger Daytona SRT survive the market? Will The Fratzonic Chambered Exhaust In The The Dodge Charger Daytona SRT EV Win Over The Purists?


(https://www.topspeed.com/the-fratzonic-chambered-exhaust-on-the-ev-charger-daytona-srt-concept-will-it-win-over-purists/?utm_source=syndication)Edit- above was cut from a new where a US police departments was not happy with the change from V8 cars to EV versions. It was not just PRO or anti [thumbsupbig]


I think I'll stick with my 4 year old Mazda CX-3 2 litre Muscle Car & will need the lolly to pay for Funeral Directors.
Fees :Rolling::burnrubber:

[Narangga]

Ram 1500 Revolution EV pickup concept revealed at CES | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ram-1500-revolution-ev-pickup-concept-revealed-at-ces)

[Arapiles]

I, for one, do not hate EVs. In fact I think they are amazing within certain parameters. However, I'm rarely convinced by evangelism in any form, and that's how I look on most debates on "alternative" energies of any kind. If they are as good as we are supposed to believe, why do they need subsidies?


So, if mainstream energy is so good why do they need A$11.6 billion in subsidies in just one year?

Australian fossil fuel subsidies surge to $11.6 billion in 2021-22 - The Australia Institute (https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australian-fossil-fuel-subsidies-surge-to-11-6-billion-in-2021-22/)

Note too that most of these subsidies are to the benefit of large coal, oil and gas companies.

[reefmagnet]

So, if mainstream energy is so good why do they need A$11.6 billion in subsidies in just one year?

Australian fossil fuel subsidies surge to $11.6 billion in 2021-22 - The Australia Institute (https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australian-fossil-fuel-subsidies-surge-to-11-6-billion-in-2021-22/)

Note too that most of these subsidies are to the benefit of large coal, oil and gas companies.Probably in order to upgrade infrastructure in preparation for the expected uptick in EV sales. Catch 22.

[Narangga]

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss

[NavyDiver]

35,000km now on MG ev and one service [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

The replacement engine in my D3 has not gone 1/3 than and I am not going to think about the cost!!!

[PhilipA]

Just don't go to Mt Hotham.
On refection I reckon many innercity EV owners will also be ski enthusiasts (Dahhhling) and that NRMA mobile battery charging unit in Goulburn will get a workout next winter.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Just don't go to Mt Hotham.
On refection I reckon many innercity EV owners will also be ski enthusiasts (Dahhhling) and that NRMA mobile battery charging unit in Goulburn will get a workout next winter.
Regards PhilipA
Land slide some where in mountains is causing a bit of grief[bigwhistle]

183044 Esky in back made for a yummy lunch today from a coastal run to someone else's boat. Fast charger at Ocean grove
out of order let me skip to racv Torquay to charge up a bit for home.

Re Cold and batteries getting up big mountains might use a bit of power. Honestly once up the down hill recharge via regenerative braking might make home a lot easier.

Your correct my quirky one is hardly a long distance touring beast. [thumbsupbig] Fantastic for Port Fairy Chemo express transport which is very happily done with now.

Suspect I will be handing the MG over to the kids early mid /later this year IF a Disco level option becomes available. I mean mostly with Solid state batteries /hydrogen fuel cell 4wd tow capable not my short range pita :)

[Narangga]

35,000km now on MG ev and one service [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

The replacement engine in my D3 has not gone 1/3 than and I am not going to think about the cost!!!



Land slide some where in mountains is causing a bit of grief[bigwhistle]

183044 Esky in back made for a yummy lunch today from a coastal run to someone else's boat. Fast charger at Ocean grove
out of order let me skip to racv Torquay to charge up a bit for home.

Re Cold and batteries getting up big mountains might use a bit of power. Honestly once up the down hill recharge via regenerative braking might make home a lot easier.

Your correct my quirky one is hardly a long distance touring beast. [thumbsupbig] Fantastic for Port Fairy Chemo express transport which is very happily done with now.

Suspect I will be handing the MG over to the kids early mid /later this year IF a Disco level option becomes available. I mean mostly with Solid state batteries /hydrogen fuel cell 4wd tow capable not my short range pita :)

Mutually inclusive events me thinks [thumbsupbig]

[JDNSW]

So, if mainstream energy is so good why do they need A$11.6 billion in subsidies in just one year?

Australian fossil fuel subsidies surge to $11.6 billion in 2021-22 - The Australia Institute (https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/australian-fossil-fuel-subsidies-surge-to-11-6-billion-in-2021-22/)

Note too that most of these subsidies are to the benefit of large coal, oil and gas companies.

Perhaps worth pointing out that the majority of these "subsidies" are concessions that are not specific to any particular industry, with the main one being the fuel rebate for excise on diesel, which is, for example, also available for primary production. Most of the other "subsidies" are provided by state and territory governments to support their income stream from royalties and political support by providing employment.

[Graeme]

Excise on diesel and petrol is a public road user charge so has to be refunded when the fuel is used for non-road purposes. It isn't a concession at all.

[JDNSW]

Basically, yes, although there are restrictions on what type of use can claim.

[NavyDiver]

Excise on diesel and petrol is a public road user charge so has to be refunded when the fuel is used for non-road purposes. It isn't a concession at all.

It doesn't have to be but is given back[bighmmm] It is a tax so it could be charged to all. A bit like Medicare levy? Almost all of us pay it regardless of if we see the Doctors or not[biggrin]


Back on my short ranged sod of a thing- Oddly seen more than a dozen in the last two weeks. Prior to that I had seen just one other MG XS EV.

Back off topic again. Fresh Bluefin Sushi was great- Disco set to tow tug for a early start to tow some lures on Thursday[thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

Range Rover Sport PHEV Is Too Heavy To Cope With Moose Test (https://www.motor1.com/news/630033/range-rover-sport-moose-test/?fbclid=IwAR1Jg90m4-f6CI2UM-Juhvy9-oJUJcYcxOjUsVqzGlNGycIi3q2J9EgCZRA)

[RANDLOVER]

I think I'll stick with my 4 year old Mazda CX-3 2 litre Muscle Car & will need the lolly to pay for Funeral Directors.
Fees :Rolling::burnrubber:

Watch out for the paint work deteriorating on your Mazda as I've seen quite a few up here with the clear coat going to pieces. I'm not sure if we get more sun up here in Qld or it is the higher temps and or humidity.

[JDNSW]

It doesn't have to be but is given back[bighmmm] It is a tax so it could be charged to all. A bit like Medicare levy? Almost all of us pay it regardless of if we see the Doctors or not[biggrin]

......

If you take that view, then applying similar thinking, for example, to road tolls, you are subsidising roads that are not tolled, or applying it to income tax, you are subsidising those with no income. And, of course, this is correct.

But trumpeting it as if the fuel excise rebate is specific to petroleum production is particularly specious, seeing the amounts quoted appear to include all mining, the vastmajority of which is not connected to petroleum production.

[RANDLOVER]

Excise on diesel and petrol is a public road user charge so has to be refunded when the fuel is used for non-road purposes. It isn't a concession at all.

...and therein lies the problem, they've factored in the damage mining vehicles would do to roads, but not the damage they are doing to the atmosphere.

[JDNSW]

...and therein lies the problem, they've factored in the damage mining vehicles would do to roads, but not the damage they are doing to the atmosphere.

Completely missing the historical and legal background to excise. Damage to roads or the atmosphere never had anything to do with excise.

Excise (on anything) was originated as a tax that was relatively easy to collect on luxury (or at least non-essential) goods originally restricted to alcohol, later to tobacco products. It has the advantage of public support and having relatively few collection points (manufacturers and importers).

When motoring started to represent a significant part of the economy by about 1920, excise was introduced on petrol, as motoring was the exclusive domain of the wealthy and the excise would not affect most voters.

When diesel trucks started to appear in the late 1930s, with petrol excise by then a major income stream for the Commonwealth, it was extended to diesel - but diesel was already being extensively used in manufacturing, agriculture and other industry, so the rebate scheme was part of this. This excise income (at this stage still mostly from petrol) was used to justify demands for Commonwealth road funding, but there was never any legislated tie between excise and road funding as far as I know.

It is only in the last few decades that excise (for tobacco) increases have been justified by pointing to the damage caused. But these increases have really only happened as the Commonwealth struggles to maintain revenue in the face of decreased rates of smoking.

[4bee]

Watch out for the paint work deteriorating on your Mazda as I've seen quite a few up here with the clear coat going to pieces. I'm not sure if we get more sun up here in Qld or it is the higher temps and or humidity.

Thanks Rand, both I suspect, but they have a 5year warranty & I seem to recall that is covered but I'll have another shufti. Roof, Doors & bonnet are still metal but some other panels are certainly "clipon" panels..

A fair % of the panels seem to be plastic so whether the colour is bonded in who knows?[bigsad]

[Narangga]

A Mazda MX-30 rotary will be revealed this week | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/a-mazda-mx-30-rotary-will-be-revealed-this-week)

Mazda confirms return of rotary engine | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site (https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/mazda-confirms-return-n-of-rotary-engine/news-story/ce9a78aa279da937a53fa204265afc58)

[RANDLOVER]

Completely missing the historical and legal background to excise. Damage to roads or the atmosphere never had anything to do with excise.....................excise was introduced on petrol, as motoring was the exclusive domain of the wealthy and the excise would not affect most voters....

I was thinking more holistically, and with fuel prices the way they are, I fear motoring is once again going to be the domain of the wealthy.

[Narangga]

Interesting...

Nothing is off the table: Toyota's Aussie bZ battery electric blitz - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/nothing-is-off-the-table-toyotas-aussie-bz-battery-electric-blitz/)

[Narangga]

Massive 15 tonne battery arrives to power Fortescue's electric truck ambitions (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/13/massive-15-tonne-battery-arrives-to-power-fortescues-electric-truck-ambitions/)

[NavyDiver]

Massive 15 tonne battery arrives to power Fortescue's electric truck ambitions (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/13/massive-15-tonne-battery-arrives-to-power-fortescues-electric-truck-ambitions/)

Like and loath it. So complex and not able to fit in my boat [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Suspect solid state will make that almost a waste of time myself[bigwhistle]

Charging was in the news with a 90 minute wait listed as a issue with country trips! [bigrolf]

[Homestar]

Massive 15 tonne battery arrives to power Fortescue's electric truck ambitions (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/13/massive-15-tonne-battery-arrives-to-power-fortescues-electric-truck-ambitions/)

Just been reading about this - based on their figures (and not allowing for driving to and from the charging station) it will reduce it's availability by around 6.5% - It will be interesting to see if that's a number they can live with given the uptime requirements of a diesel truck like this has to be over 98% for a company to even consider the purchase of one. 94% availability on a machine like this would see it sent back to the OEM quicker than you can say "That's a large hole in the ground"

Maybe that's where it all has to go to and this is the start but the sceptic in me says it won't pan out quite like the Engineers think, but I do honestly wish them luck - it's an impressive bit of kit and there's obviously put a shed load of effort into it.

[NavyDiver]

Just been reading about this - based on their figures (and not allowing for driving to and from the charging station) it will reduce it's availability by around 6.5% - It will be interesting to see if that's a number they can live with given the uptime requirements of a diesel truck like this has to be over 98% for a company to even consider the purchase of one. 94% availability on a machine like this would see it sent back to the OEM quicker than you can say "That's a large hole in the ground"

Maybe that's where it all has to go to and this is the start but the sceptic in me says it won't pan out quite like the Engineers think, but I do honestly wish them luck - it's an impressive bit of kit and there's obviously put a shed load of effort into it.


Fully agree the sheer number of BMSs configured to work jointly must have been a major achievement. Load balancing and charging balancing the array of cells may be a bit of a miracle if it works as planned. "eight sub-packs, each with 36 modules, all individually cooled and each with its own management system." leaves a lot of possible faults would be my main concern with the lithium cells liquid catalyst.

The ACDC fast charge in 30 minutes is extraordinary !!! " “a massive achievement” and several firsts for an electric mining haul truck battery, including the ability to fast-charge in 30 minutes and capacity to regenerate power as it drives downhill."

I wonder if the regenerate power limit on most EV's is overcome as that would be cool! Given the size IF the recharging unit is on the truck or it has a super capacitor to take the likely "massive" regenerate power. Most EV charging limits mean a lot of regenerative braking power is lost currently.

[Homestar]

Biggest problem with haul trucks is they come UP fully loaded and go down EMPTY - so regen braking although important, won't be anywhere near what is needed to haul an extra 270 tonnes up the hill each trip. Then there's the infrastructure needed - 1 prototype with a 1.5MVA charger is one thing - to be able to charge multiples gets hard once you get past more than a few - even FMG's biggest solar farm wouldn't cope with too many at once so the will need to increase the solar capacity dramatically as well - something I'm sure they are all over and will do though.

[dirvine]

Why is it that EV's dont have solar panels on their roof. Surely as we are told the sun is a free energy source, so slick panels and a MMPT converter would be a small weight penalty to pay for free charging. What am I missing?

[cjc_td5]

Why is it that EV's dont have solar panels on their roof. Surely as we are told the sun is a free energy source, so slick panels and a MMPT converter would be a small weight penalty to pay for free charging. What am I missing?A EV when driving is using say 10-20x the amount of electricity that any panels could produce. So you'd drive for say 2 hours, then park and recharge for the next 40 (sunlight) hours?

[Narangga]

Like and loath it. So complex and not able to fit in my boat [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Suspect solid state will make that almost a waste of time myself[bigwhistle]

Charging was in the news with a 90 minute wait listed as a issue with country trips! [bigrolf]

They've obviously invested in this to make it happen but no doubt would love it to be solid state when available - as we all would.

[Narangga]

Just been reading about this - based on their figures (and not allowing for driving to and from the charging station) it will reduce it's availability by around 6.5% - It will be interesting to see if that's a number they can live with given the uptime requirements of a diesel truck like this has to be over 98% for a company to even consider the purchase of one. 94% availability on a machine like this would see it sent back to the OEM quicker than you can say "That's a large hole in the ground"

Maybe that's where it all has to go to and this is the start but the sceptic in me says it won't pan out quite like the Engineers think, but I do honestly wish them luck - it's an impressive bit of kit and there's obviously put a shed load of effort into it.

Can't fault what you say but remember: What Twiggy wants - Twiggy gets.[wink11]

[Homestar]

Can't fault what you say but remember: What Twiggy wants - Twiggy gets.[wink11]

Apart from a large power cable running to Singapore - I see Sun Cable has gone belly up, so his 15% share has vapourised.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ooops.. may have ordered an around town one.

[dirvine]

A EV when driving is using say 10-20x the amount of electricity that any panels could produce. So you'd drive for say 2 hours, then park and recharge for the next 40 (sunlight) hours?

No not saying only use solar. But there is a lot of roof and boot space facing the sky. Even if you just parked the car for a few hours while having lunch or down at the beach would be better than nothing surely! Some people (like my partner) dont use their car during the week so it could be charging for nothing and not causing the electricity suppliers overloads etc. Or is it as I suspect, a lot of BS and they are not cheap to run and the sun is not the answer. Maybe they should have a windmill on top so it charges as they drive. Or arn't they efficient either? We hear so much about wind and solar being the cheap alternative and it seems you have just destroyed the myth because they are slow and inefficient and are not the long term answer. I wonder what is?

[Tins]

I'll just leave this here...

Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car | Comment | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-ive-pulled-the-plug-on-my-electric-car-dwgs9l9hl)


"Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car".

As I watch my family strike out on foot across the fields into driving rain and gathering darkness, my wife holding each child’s hand, our new year plans in ruins, while I do what I can to make our dead car safe before abandoning it a mile short of home, full of luggage on a country lane, it occurs to me not for the first time that if we are going to save the planet we will have to find another way. Because electric cars are not the answer.

I can’t even roll it to a safer spot because it can’t be put in neutral. For when an electric car dies, it dies hard. And then lies there as big and grey and not-going-anywhere as the poacher-slain bull elephant I once saw rotting by a roadside in northern Kenya. Just a bit less smelly.

Two out of three roadside chargers are broken or busy at any one time
Not that this is unusual.
Since I bought my eco dream car in late 2020, in a deluded Thunbergian frenzy, it has spent more time off the road than on it, beached at the dealership for months at a time on account of innumerable electrical calamities, while I galumph around in the big diesel “courtesy cars” they send me under the terms of the warranty.
But this time I don’t want one. And I don’t want my own car back either.

I have asked the guys who sold it to me to sell it again, as soon as it is fixed, to the first mug who walks into the shop. Because I am going back to petrol while there is still time.
And if the government really does ban new wet fuel cars after 2030, then we will eventually have to go back to horses. Because the electric vehicle industry is no readier to get a family home from Cornwall at Christmas time (as I was trying to do) than it is to fly us all to Jupiter. The cars are useless, the infrastructure is not there and you’re honestly better off walking.

Even on the really long journeys. In fact, especially on the long journeys. The short ones they can just about manage. It’s no wonder Tesla shares are down 71 per cent. It’s all a huge fraud. And, for me, it’s over.

Yet the new owner of my “preloved” premium electric vehicle, fired with a messianic desire to make a better world for his children, will not know this. He will be delighted with his purchase and overjoyed to find there are still six months of warranty left, little suspecting that once that has expired — and with it the free repairs and replacement cars for those long spells off road — he will be functionally carless.

He will be over the moon to learn that it has “a range of up to 292 miles”. No need to tell him what that really means is “220 miles”. Why electric carmakers are allowed to tell these lies is a mystery to me. As it soon will be to him.

Although for the first few days he won’t worry especially. He’ll think he can just nip into a fuel station and charge it up again. Ho ho ho. No need to tell him that two out of three roadside chargers in this country are broken or busy at any one time. Or that the built-in “find my nearest charge point” function doesn’t work, has never worked, and isn’t meant to work.

Or that apps like Zap-Map don’t work either because the chargers they send you to are always either busy or broken or require a membership card you don’t have or an app you can’t download because there’s no 5G here, in the middle of nowhere, where you will now probably die.
Or that the Society of Motor Manufacturers said this week that only 23 new chargers are being installed nationwide each day, of the 100 per day that were promised (as a proud early adopter, I told myself that charging would become easier as the network grew, but it hasn’t grown, while the number of e-drivers has tripled, so it’s actually harder now than it was two years ago).

There are, of course, plus sides to electric ownership. Such as the camaraderie when we encounter each other, tired and weeping at yet another service station with only two chargers, one of which still has the “this fault has been reported” sign on it from when you were here last August, and the other is of the measly 3kWh variety, which means you will have to spend the night in a Travelodge while your stupid drum lazily inhales enough juice to get home.

Together, in the benighted charging zone, we leccy drivers laugh about what fools we are and drool over the diesel hatchbacks nonchalantly filling up across the way (“imagine getting to a fuel station and knowing for sure you will be able to refuel!”) and talk in the hour-long queue at Exeter services about the petrol car we will buy as soon as we get home.

We filled up there last week on the way back from Cornwall, adding two hours to our four-hour journey, by which time Esther wasn’t speaking to me. She’s been telling me to get rid of the iPace since it ruined last summer’s holidays in both Wales and Devon (“If you won’t let us fly any more, at least buy a car that can get us to the places we’re still allowed to go!”).

But I kept begging her to give me one last chance, as if I’d refused to give up a mistress, rather than a dull family car. Until this time, a couple of miles from home, when a message flashed up on the dash: “Assisted braking not available — proceed with caution.” Then: “Steering control unavailable.”

And then, as I inched off the dual carriageway at our turnoff, begging it to make the last mile, children weeping at the scary noises coming from both car and father: “Gearbox fault detected.” CLUNK. WHIRRR. CRACK.

And dead. Nothing.
Poached elephant.
I called Jaguar Assist (there is a button in the roof that does it directly — most useful feature on the car) who told me they could have a mechanic there in four hours (who would laugh and say, “Can’t help you, pal. You’ve got a software issue there. I’m just a car mechanic. And this isn’t a car, it’s a laptop on wheels.”)
So Esther and the kids headed for home across the sleety wastes, a vision of post-apocalyptic misery like something out of Cormac McCarthy, while I saw out 2022 waiting for a tow-truck. Again.

But don’t let that put you off.
I see in the paper that electric car sales are at record levels and production is struggling to keep up with demand. So why not buy mine? It’s clean as a whistle and boasts super-low mileage. After all, it’s hardly been driven . . ."

[scarry]

I'll just leave this here...

Why I’ve pulled the plug on my electric car | Comment | The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-ive-pulled-the-plug-on-my-electric-car-dwgs9l9hl)




DId you notice the brand?[biggrin]

I still think once the Japs and Koreans start manufacturing them,in huge numbers,if they ever do,their reliability will be way ahead of Tesla and the other pretenders.

The Japs are not stupid,look at Toyota's current dominance in the world new vehicle market,they obviously know the market better than any one else.
Other Japanese and Korean manufacturers are not far behind.

[NavyDiver]

DId you notice the brand?[biggrin]

I still think once the Japs and Koreans start manufacturing them,in huge numbers,if they ever do,their reliability will be way ahead of Tesla and the other pretenders.

The Japs are not stupid,look at Toyota's current dominance in the world new vehicle market,they obviously know the market better than any one else.
Other Japanese and Korean manufacturers are not far behind.

Saw that article - Clearly not happy! My one is not able to do its WTPL range - I have never stuffed it and run out of power over 30000km :)

Just saw KIA ev6 information

"When you purchase you Kia EV, you have the opportunity to purchase the scheduled services in advance through our Kia Service Plan program[S].

You can purchase 3 years, 5 Years or 7 Years of servicing at the time of the vehicle purchase & control your future spending by paying for all your services in advance.


3 Year

$594
5 Year

$1,089
7 Year

$1,584


"

My Disco costs me the seven year price more than yearly :( Hand brake squeal about to cost me a bit more :(


Not sure why that gent mucked up so much? Suspect a number of issues. The Jaguar I saw seems very very nice- Much nicer than my cheap and cheerful daily drive.

A forum I watch with Jaguar owners is not very active here. IF they had problems I suspect it would be very active [biggrin]

Jaguar - AEVA Forums (http://forums.aeva.asn.au/viewforum.php?f=65&sid=3ed95b6d79ebecc19efa60fa60f3476d)

[Tins]

DId you notice the brand?[biggrin]



I did. I also posted here a while back that Toyota don't believe EVs are the future. What do they know that the others don't? They're not in the habit of backing losers. They also have a working hydrogen powered ICE.

[scarry]

I did. I also posted here a while back that Toyota don't believe EVs are the future. What do they know that the others don't? They're not in the habit of backing losers. They also have a working hydrogen powered ICE.

I think they are hedging their bets both ways,EV and ICE,and possibly hydrogen.Anyone who thinks they are not working on them,and dont have the tech,are dreaming.
They are just not using the tech at the moment.They have done this with ICE vehicles for many decades,and still do it in todays market.

Europe is not a huge market for them,so they are probably sitting back and watching the market,not following the sheep,just waiting to see what happens.
Once they believe Ev's will sell well,and will continue to sell well,i bet they will be onto it.

A few years ago,they realised Hybrids were a big seller,and quickly became a world leader in their sales.
Over 75% of hybrids sold in Aus are Tojo's.

[Narangga]

Apart from a large power cable running to Singapore - I see Sun Cable has gone belly up, so his 15% share has vapourised.

No - he didn't get what he wanted regarding the next investment round for Sun Cable and so wouldn't put in his $60 Million. That left them $60 Million short which made the board decide to put it into voluntary administration, effectively sidelining him.

[Narangga]

Ooops.. may have ordered an around town one.

Meaning?

[Narangga]

I did. I also posted here a while back that Toyota don't believe EVs are the future. What do they know that the others don't? They're not in the habit of backing losers. They also have a working hydrogen powered ICE.


Interesting...

Nothing is off the table: Toyota's Aussie bZ battery electric blitz - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/nothing-is-off-the-table-toyotas-aussie-bz-battery-electric-blitz/)

I rest my case Your Honour! [smilebigeye]

[Tombie]

DId you notice the brand?[biggrin]

I still think once the Japs and Koreans start manufacturing them,in huge numbers,if they ever do,their reliability will be way ahead of Tesla and the other pretenders.

The Japs are not stupid,look at Toyota's current dominance in the world new vehicle market,they obviously know the market better than any one else.
Other Japanese and Korean manufacturers are not far behind.

Although… Toyotas dominance is being challenged by, of all brands, Volkswagen.

On pure revenue the People’s Car is outstripping Toyota.

Toyotas 2 primary markets are Home and USA. Currently they are being ‘hunted’ by US domestic brands and losing just a little ground each year.

It will be interesting to see how these players all go in the developing market.

I’m not convinced of any EV benefits to the planet or the average punter. I think the early adopters are having a bit of a win purely due to shorter term gain. There is no way this trend will continue as power prices skyrocket, taxes will be imposed to cover lost excises and infrastructure costs start getting shared.


Meanwhile, another trip to Adelaide confirms that EVs are currently metro only solutions for day to day use. Sure with very careful planning they may make the occasional, very relaxed, long range travel. Today though - 42°c, full AC blasting would have made the journey impossible to complete in under 5 hours (it’s 378km plus any ‘in town’ side trips)

[Tins]

I rest my case Your Honour! [smilebigeye]

Not so fast, my learned friend. I take it you read this?

Toyota Chief Says ‘Silent Majority’ Has Doubts About Pursuing Only EVs - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223)

Toyota are in a position where they can easily keep a foot in both camps. They are most definitely NOT doing a VW and putting all their eggs in the EV basket. Personally, I'd take an article from a biased org such as EV Central with a pinch of salt. Do you seriously believe that Toyota gives a fig about what a corrupt enterprise such as Green Peas thinks?

[Narangga]

Not so fast, my learned friend. I take it you read this?

Toyota Chief Says ‘Silent Majority’ Has Doubts About Pursuing Only EVs - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223)

Toyota are in a position where they can easily keep a foot in both camps. They are most definitely NOT doing a VW and putting all their eggs in the EV basket. Personally, I'd take an article from a biased org such as EV Central with a pinch of salt. Do you seriously believe that Toyota gives a fig about what a corrupt enterprise such as Green Peas thinks?

I have the same opinion of the WSJ - but I agree that Mr Toyoda does have two feet, which is what my quoting of the EV Central article intended. [thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Although… Toyotas dominance is being challenged by, of all brands, Volkswagen.

On pure revenue the People’s Car is outstripping Toyota.

Toyotas 2 primary markets are Home and USA. Currently they are being ‘hunted’ by US domestic brands and losing just a little ground each year.

It will be interesting to see how these players all go in the developing market.

I’m not convinced of any EV benefits to the planet or the average punter. I think the early adopters are having a bit of a win purely due to shorter term gain. There is no way this trend will continue as power prices skyrocket, taxes will be imposed to cover lost excises and infrastructure costs start getting shared.


Meanwhile, another trip to Adelaide confirms that EVs are currently metro only solutions for day to day use. Sure with very careful planning they may make the occasional, very relaxed, long range travel. Today though - 42°c, full AC blasting would have made the journey impossible to complete in under 5 hours (it’s 378km plus any ‘in town’ side trips)

I would say challenged by 'Volkswagen Group' - which encompasses 10 brands overall I think compared to Toyota which is basically Toyota and Lexus. If you take just actual badged VW's it's not even close but as a global OEM then yes, they are pulling away from Toyota.

[NavyDiver]

Not so fast, my learned friend. I take it you read this?

Toyota Chief Says ‘Silent Majority’ Has Doubts About Pursuing Only EVs - WSJ (https://www.wsj.com/articles/toyota-president-says-silent-majority-has-doubts-about-pursuing-only-evs-11671372223)

Toyota are in a position where they can easily keep a foot in both camps. They are most definitely NOT doing a VW and putting all their eggs in the EV basket. Personally, I'd take an article from a biased org such as EV Central with a pinch of salt. Do you seriously believe that Toyota gives a fig about what a corrupt enterprise such as Green Peas thinks?

Having a foot in all camps for Toyota John? Its Pirus hybrid was a fist of kind really, The hydrogen is clearly a small sales volume at present yet again a first. ICE development and some very quiet solid state battery with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ spent already

"https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-hybrids-to-adopt-solid-state-battery-tech-by-2025-report/" vehicle range is on track to adopt solid-state battery technology by 2025, according to the Japanese marque's Chief Scientist and Research Centre CEO Gill Pratt. "

It always is a few years away [bawl][bawl]

The quirky car I have was paid for by hype plus on a solid state SPAC which may be a 2025 at scale option. "QuantumScape expects commercial production from 2025" NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!

Samsung dito and Home - Solid Power (https://www.solidpowerbattery.com/).

A rumour or specualtion that Tojo will buy out Panasonic for the battery wars seems more than possibility.

As always devil is in the details "Toyota and research partner Panasonic currently have the lead in patents related to the technology, Nikkei Asia (https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Toyota-secures-huge-lead-in-solid-state-battery-patents) reported Thursday. Along with Tokyo-based research firm Patent Consult, Nikkei studied patent applications for solid-state battery tech in ten countries and territories filed from 2000 through the end of March of this year.

Toyota was the clear leader with 1,331 known patents, followed by Panasonic with 445 patents. In comparison, the third-place company—Idemitsu Kosan—holds 272 patents, according to the report.

"


It a mad world in the batty battery sector with trillions spent to date![biggrin]

[101RRS]

Just as an aside, the Tesla 3 is now the highest selling medium sized sedan in Australia (outright not the EV sector) replacing the 20 year reign of the Toyota Camry.

[PhilipA]

As someone I think on here recently pointed out Tesla has umpteen thousand at grass in China while there is a six month wait for Camrys.

Those mugs who took delivery of model 3s then , must be seething at the price reduction this month! This was worldwide .
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Meaning?
Tesla SUV. Not for off road use.

[Narangga]

Tesla SUV. Not for off road use.

Y?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Y?
Yep.. base model RWD with the special FBT tax deal.

[Narangga]

Electric ute conversions: Roev fills 2023 order book for Hilux and Ranger (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/17/electric-ute-conversions-roev-fills-2023-order-book-for-hilux-and-ranger/)

Australia's SEA in $1 billion deal to electrify 8,500 Hilux and Landcruisers for miners (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/18/australias-sea-in-1-billion-deal-to-electrify-8500-hilux-and-landcruisers-for-miners/)

[Narangga]

Yep.. base model RWD with the special FBT tax deal.

Yes the FBT being removed is certainly an incentive. Enjoy!

[Narangga]

Tritium secures record EV charger order from BP | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tritium-secures-record-ev-charger-order-from-bp)

bp are saying 600 in Australia. They have 1400 locations. 43% coverage of their outlets at face value. :thumbsdown:

I also note the vast difference in production rates from US compared to Australia. So much for local manufacturing industry...

[NavyDiver]

WTPL grumpy? They should not be allowed to lie! Oddly a MG4 was one of the best in not lying.

My quirky one could have been taken back as no way it will do a highway speed WLTP

Did not take it back as I could make do. Narangga helpful post is needed given the rate of growth for EV (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/271840-ev-general-discussion-post3179302.html#post3179302)s.



Real World Range Test, Efficiency, And Charging Costs For 10 Euro EVs (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/real-world-range-test-efficiency-and-charging-costs-for-10-euro-evs/ar-AA16uPbv?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=bd874646f3af41e1be34b0fb881b380f)

"ConclusionsLet's start with a given. The MG 4 costs 33,990 euros whereas the BMW i7 is 150,400 euros – almost four and a half times more. Why do we point out this huge difference in price? These are obviously two very different vehicles in different categories, but our goal is to offer precise figures for a variety of models that can be considered both in context to specific categories, and across the electric automotive spectrum. Also, a big price, big batteries, and big range don't always translate to big efficiency in the electric world.
This can come in handy when you find yourself evaluating the purchase of a new EV; understanding how weight, power, dimensions, and other characteristics – not just battery capacity – factor into range and efficiency."
While all of this is interesting. None of it deals with 4wd, long distance we have or towing a caravan, trailer or boat!
Are we there yet? Shut up and wait James [biggrin]

[disco gazza]

How easy is it to charge an electric car on a long journey and what does it cost? I found out by driving 350 miles in a Volvo C40 - Bristol Live (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/how-easy-charge-electric-car-8038662?fbclid=IwAR1KJEBeRSsaUlXnnZVbSi5oytSWJqSXH pQEulyK1b7G0TVLZO-rvEfs7bg)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Can I say.. the fast charging situation in areas off the coast is really changing incredibly quickly around south east queensland. I expect the coverage is going to continue to grow really rapidly over the next few years. The next challenge is going to be increasing capacity (IE the number of chargers).

[NavyDiver]

Can I say.. the fast charging situation in areas off the coast is really changing incredibly quickly around south east queensland. I expect the coverage is going to continue to grow really rapidly over the next few years. The next challenge is going to be increasing capacity (IE the number of chargers).

I did the Numbers once assuming we all drove a EV* It was not pretty with the current tech for long weekends. 29 dec yarn is interesting


"More than 33,000 electric vehicles were sold in Australia in 2022, according to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries – almost double the number sold in 2021.

Thorne says many car-charging sites have been underused so far because drivers have charged their vehicles at home or at their holiday destination. Many drivers now want to take their cars further.
" link (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/15/summer-holidays-see-people-queuing-to-charge-electric-cars-for-first-time-in-australia)
still a small amount of Total sales in 2022 (https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-australia-by-month)

Off to Ballarat in mine after lunch. The fast charges there make that pretty easy. IF or more likely when EV sales are more than 50% of new car sales it will be fair less certain an hour for a full charge in my case will be possible at the current charger numbers.

Victoria is really slow in rolling out in many areas. I appreciate 'user pays' and am happy to pay.

Off topic a little. Gent at Ritta Landrover mentioned EU power prices may mean charging EV in much of the EU might be costing as much as running a small 4 cylinder ICE car.

New Zealand is the place to be according to the IEA[thumbsupbig]

Trends in charging infrastructure – Global EV Outlook 2022 – Analysis - IEA (https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2022/trends-in-charging-infrastructure) report has "Electric car sales continue to break records, but mineral supply constraints are looming"

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I did the Numbers once assuming we all drove a EV* It was not pretty with the current tech for long weekends. 29 dec yarn is interesting


"More than 33,000 electric vehicles were sold in Australia in 2022, according to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries – almost double the number sold in 2021.

Thorne says many car-charging sites have been underused so far because drivers have charged their vehicles at home or at their holiday destination. Many drivers now want to take their cars further.
" link (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/15/summer-holidays-see-people-queuing-to-charge-electric-cars-for-first-time-in-australia)
still a small amount of Total sales in 2022 (https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-australia-by-month)

Off to Ballarat in mine after lunch. The fast charges there make that pretty easy. IF or more likely when EV sales are more than 50% of new car sales it will be fair less certain an hour for a full charge in my case will be possible at the current charger numbers.

Victoria is really slow in rolling out in many areas. I appreciate 'user pays' and am happy to pay.

Off topic a little. Gent at Ritta Landrover mentioned EU power prices may mean charging EV in much of the EU might be costing as much as running a small 4 cylinder ICE car.

New Zealand is the place to be according to the IEA[thumbsupbig]

Trends in charging infrastructure – Global EV Outlook 2022 – Analysis - IEA (https://www.iea.org/reports/global-ev-outlook-2022/trends-in-charging-infrastructure) report has "Electric car sales continue to break records, but mineral supply constraints are looming"

I think we always have to assume that there is going to be a lag between demand and provision. It's just how it is. There is like 60k EV's out of a vehicle fleet of 15 million at the moment.

[Narangga]

Can I say.. the fast charging situation in areas off the coast is really changing incredibly quickly around south east queensland. I expect the coverage is going to continue to grow really rapidly over the next few years. The next challenge is going to be increasing capacity (IE the number of chargers).

And then install them in the Antipodes... :dbcry:

[Narangga]

I think we always have to assume that there is going to be a lag between demand and provision. It's just how it is. There is like 60k EV's out of a vehicle fleet of 15 million at the moment.

The latest EV figure is 70K and as of 31 Jan 2021 ABS say 20.1 million vehicles. Hence the lag you have mentioned. Fortunately fuel companies like bp & Ampol are starting to install them in their servo's.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The latest EV figure is 70K and as of 31 Jan 2021 ABS say 20.1 million vehicles. Hence the lag you have mentioned. Fortunately fuel companies like bp & Ampol are starting to install them in their servo's.
Cross fingers hey. I thing the coverage will sort but it will need to be backed by capacity.

[Narangga]

Cross fingers hey. I thing the coverage will sort but it will need to be backed by capacity.

Might take a while according to this - Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle)

However if the 'fuel' companies start making a profit out of EV chargers...

[cjc_td5]

Take the midway service centres on Forrest Hwy between Perth and Bunbury for example. They are only around ten years old and were literally built in a rural paddock beside the highway. They provide their own water and had to construct electricity supply to the site. I very much doubt they constructed any more electricity capacity than they needed then/now. To pivot this development to EV charging is going to cost someone mega $$$ in terms of upgrade of electricity supply to the site. The food establishments are there and distances are perfect for an EV top up on a trip south, but I cannot see how it could be economical for them...?

[PhilipA]

Easy.
subsidies by using motor club subscription ( nearly all members have ICE cars) or your taxes at work to support virtue seekers with lots of money .
regards PhilipA

[Narangga]

Take the midway service centres on Forrest Hwy between Perth and Bunbury for example. They are only around ten years old and were literally built in a rural paddock beside the highway. They provide their own water and had to construct electricity supply to the site. I very much doubt they constructed any more electricity capacity than they needed then/now. To pivot this development to EV charging is going to cost someone mega $$$ in terms of upgrade of electricity supply to the site. The food establishments are there and distances are perfect for an EV top up on a trip south, but I cannot see how it could be economical for them...?

Call for caravan parks to boost EV charging - caravancampingsales.com.au (https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/call-for-caravan-parks-to-boost-ev-charging-139138/)

Middy's Electrical in Darwin have a 25kW charger (pay via Everty). As per my earlier post - if someone can make a buck out of it they will appear.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Call for caravan parks to boost EV charging - caravancampingsales.com.au (https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/call-for-caravan-parks-to-boost-ev-charging-139138/)

Middy's Electrical in Darwin have a 25kW charger (pay via Everty). As per my earlier post - if someone can make a buck out of it they will appear.

I'm confident that there is a buck to be made to. People are selling electricity for probably 2 - 3 times what it's costing them. The problem is the chargers are expensive and there just aren't enough EV's to make it worth while at this stage.

It's the demand lag I've referenced. When the first ICE cars were sold you bought your fuel in cans from chemists. Petrol stations were some time later.

Fortunately for many they can do most if not all their charging at home. We've owned our city runabout car for 7 years - which is the car the EV is replacing. Now that longer range EV's are becoming the norm everything has changed. In that whole we've owned the city car I doubt we would have needed to charge outside the home more than a handful of times. Like probably every other year.

The nissan Leaf.. as great as it was has given the whole world EV range anxiety. That needs to be pass too.

[NavyDiver]

Call for caravan parks to boost EV charging - caravancampingsales.com.au (https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/call-for-caravan-parks-to-boost-ev-charging-139138/)

Middy's Electrical in Darwin have a 25kW charger (pay via Everty). As per my earlier post - if someone can make a buck out of it they will appear.

My thoughts on any charger under 100kW is other than at home or motel, caravan park, shopping centre is they are redundant already. 350kW are about the current tech base line. EV Charging guide: Home and public charging, power levels and plugs explained (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/ev-charging-guide-home)


Noting my tiny 42kWh battery is just over an hour from empty on a 50kWh 80% is quick. The last bit if much slower with current lithium tech!

The solid state charge will be a game changer for the charge time! QS explains this better than I can

Limits of current tech
183410

White Paper: Fast-Charging Performance | QuantumScape (https://www.quantumscape.com/resources/blog/white-paper-a-deep-dive-into-quantumscapes-fast-charging-performance/)

183411 [B]NOT Investment advice (and yes I do hold[bigwhistle])


Our little electric engines are getting bigger and more efficient quickly. At least a few of my 80/90s warships had electric propulsion.

Stealth is a key driver then and now[biggrin] I could hear ships over 100km away some times [thumbsupbig]

STADT's electric propulsion tech to power NATO warships - Naval Today (https://www.navaltoday.com/2023/01/20/stadts-electric-propulsion-tech-to-power-nato-warships/)

[Narangga]

I'm confident that there is a buck to be made to. People are selling electricity for probably 2 - 3 times what it's costing them. The problem is the chargers are expensive and there just aren't enough EV's to make it worth while at this stage.

It's the demand lag I've referenced. When the first ICE cars were sold you bought your fuel in cans from chemists. Petrol stations were some time later.

Fortunately for many they can do most if not all their charging at home. We've owned our city runabout car for 7 years - which is the car the EV is replacing. Now that longer range EV's are becoming the norm everything has changed. In that whole we've owned the city car I doubt we would have needed to charge outside the home more than a handful of times. Like probably every other year.

The nissan Leaf.. as great as it was has given the whole world EV range anxiety. That needs to be pass too.

Yes I pass on that one...

[Narangga]

‘Everyone wants a piece’: Are electric vehicles Australia’s opportunity of a lifetime? (https://www.smh.com.au/national/everyone-wants-a-piece-are-electric-vehicles-australia-s-opportunity-of-a-lifetime-20230119-p5cdq4.html)

[Tins]

Trust the Italians to make an EV desirable... This is a town car I would have:


https://youtu.be/ZoIqF2he5bA

[goingbush]

Trust the Italians to make an EV desirable... This is a town car I would have:

Give me a standard Fiat 500-E , dont need to be paying extra for the Abarth name and scorpion logos .

As for the fake engine sound, I toyed with that idea on my landy and took it off soon after .


https://youtu.be/eVh6W_PqkJo

[Narangga]

[QUOTE=Tins;3180048]Trust the Italians to make an EV desirable... This is a town car I would have:

Wouldn't carry much home from Bunnings. [bigwhistle]

[Tins]

[QUOTE=Tins;3180048]Trust the Italians to make an EV desirable... This is a town car I would have:

Wouldn't carry much home from Bunnings. [bigwhistle]

It'd carry the pack of screws I went there for....

[Tins]

Give me a standard Fiat 500-E , dont need to be paying extra for the Abarth name and scorpion logos .



As a FIAT bloke from 1977 I always wanted an Abarth...

[Narangga]

[QUOTE=Narangga;3180168]

It'd carry the pack of screws I went there for....

[tonguewink]

[NavyDiver]

"Palladium has dropped to around $1,700 an ounce (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news/electric-vehicles-throw-palladium-s-mega-rally-into-reverse/ar-AA16MRaW?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=12c6ca374f864201a794e12dcd2b7835)."

it was being stolen as it was much more expensive! "Catalytic converters are part of a modern car’s exhaust system, fitted to reduce harmful emissions. They are stolen because of the precious metals inside them: palladium, platinum and rhodium. Hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius, Honda Jazz Hybrid and Lexus RX are particularly affected (https://www.motoringresearch.com/advice/stop-catalytic-converter-theft/#:~:text=Catalytic%20converters%20are%20part%20of% 20a%20modern%20car%E2%80%99s,Jazz%20Hybrid%20and%2 0Lexus%20RX%20are%20particularly%20affected.)"

Side effect of more EVs is unexpected but foreseeable just not by me Regards Mr Slow[bigwhistle]

[Narangga]

"Palladium has dropped to around $1,700 an ounce (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/news/electric-vehicles-throw-palladium-s-mega-rally-into-reverse/ar-AA16MRaW?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=12c6ca374f864201a794e12dcd2b7835)."

it was being stolen as it was much more expensive! "Catalytic converters are part of a modern car’s exhaust system, fitted to reduce harmful emissions. They are stolen because of the precious metals inside them: palladium, platinum and rhodium. Hybrid cars such as the Toyota Prius, Honda Jazz Hybrid and Lexus RX are particularly affected (https://www.motoringresearch.com/advice/stop-catalytic-converter-theft/#:~:text=Catalytic%20converters%20are%20part%20of% 20a%20modern%20car%E2%80%99s,Jazz%20Hybrid%20and%2 0Lexus%20RX%20are%20particularly%20affected.)"

Side effect of more EVs is unexpected but foreseeable just not by me Regards Mr Slow[bigwhistle]

So you're saying that something is mined, refined and manufactured and put into use. Then it is removed from use, the things used in manufacturing are removed and are then reused? Isn't that usually called RECYCLING? :wasntme:

[NavyDiver]

So you're saying that something is mined, refined and manufactured and put into use. Then it is removed from use, the things used in manufacturing are removed and are then reused? Isn't that usually called RECYCLING? :wasntme:

Recycling is great mate- having your exhaust stolen to be recycled is possibly not everyone's happy dayz [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

IP68 sealed[biggrin] It has been spotted in left and right drive but we may be last to see it.

Crab walk- swimming and more.
BYD reveals luxury electric SUV (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-reveals-luxury-electric-suv-brand)Go to the 4th minute to see the swim[biggrin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oEd9rJJ19s

Only 4WD I saw swimming other than mine, was a pajero- it sunk after swimming a bit [biggrin]Swimming in the very fast river crossings I have been in a few times might be very very bad of course[biggrin]

[Narangga]

Recycling is great mate- having your exhaust stolen to be recycled is possibly not everyone's happy dayz [biggrin]

[tonguewink]

[Narangga]

IP68 sealed[biggrin] It has been spotted in left and right drive but we may be last to see it.

Crab walk- swimming and more.
BYD reveals luxury electric SUV (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-reveals-luxury-electric-suv-brand)Go to the 4th minute to see the swim[biggrin]

Only 4WD I saw swimming other than mine, was a pajero- it sunk after swimming a bit [biggrin]Swimming in the very fast river crossings I have been in a few times might be very very bad of course[biggrin]

IP68 - my Defender definitely wasn't going through water that deep a few times [biggrin]

Similar looking to the Kia EV9 but that is not an off-roader.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

IP68 sealed It has been spotted in left and right drive but we may be last to see it.

Crab walk- swimming and more.
[B]BYD reveals luxury electric SUV (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/byd-reveals-luxury-electric-suv-brand)

Go to the 4th minute to see the swim[biggrin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oEd9rJJ19s

Only 4WD I saw swimming other than mine, was a pajero- it sunk after swimming a bit [biggrin]Swimming in the very fast river crossings I have been in a few times might be very very bad of course[biggrin]

Can you imagine the service department on Monday!!??. I want to claim warranty! Where is the car? At the bottom of the ocean!

[Narangga]

Can you imagine the service department on Monday!!??. I want to claim warranty! Where is the car? At the bottom of the ocean!

But Google maps said there was a fast charger there [bigsad]

[NavyDiver]

But Google maps said there was a fast charger there [bigsad]

Salt water fueled battery

Salt water torpeado battery I used/ fired worked very well. Still in use. Not the Bottom of the ocean. About 10 metres down when cruising fast was cool.

still in use now via ones like [B]V616: Seawater-activated battery for A244 torpedoes

It is "Magnesium-silver chloride " as were my ships torpeado battery a long time ago[biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

Telsa can be hot[bigwhistle] Burns the battery of Tesla Model S, serious difficulties in "taming" the flames of the electric car (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/burns-the-battery-of-tesla-model-s-serious-difficulties-in-taming-the-flames-of-the-electric-car/ss-AA16Vxsc?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f0a782b0a9fd436ebedded2a246cc9d0#image=1)


That battery fires can be a PITA is not a surprise of course. Big pond fuel oil fires I trained with were amazingly hard to put out without AFFF. That is of course now known to be very carcinogenic[bawl][bawl][bawl]

Back to the car https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA16Vspy.img?w=800&h=415&q=60&m=2&f=jpg

[NavyDiver]

When I was a kids I think I recall some being very anti Ford, Holden, Toyota......Even Landrovers get the odd shellacking.

Driving a quirky Chinese EV MG XS happened mostly as I knew I was going to do a lot of miles helping chemotherapy. It clearly not a 4wd long range 4wd beast[biggrin]

For what it is I like it. More comfortable in many ways than many of the cars I have owned. Clearly cheaper to run than my Disco IF notes limitations are excused [biggrin]

"Chinese EVs from Xpeng, BYD, and MG are common sights on the streets of Oslo, Norway.
This article comes to us courtesy of EVANNEX (https://evannex.com/), which makes and sells aftermarket Tesla accessories. The opinions expressed therein are not necessarily our own at InsideEVs (https://insideevs.com/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed), nor have we been paid by EVANNEX to publish these articles. We find the company's perspective as an aftermarket supplier of Tesla accessories interesting and are happy to share its content free of charge. Enjoy!Posted on EVANNEX on January 31, 2023, by Charles MorrisChinese electric vehicles are making their way into European markets at large. Xpeng announced its first deliveries to Norway (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/xpengs-g3-electric-suv-is-on-its-way-to-norway/) in October 2020. Around the same time, John Voelcker, a seasoned auto reviewer, drove the company’s P7 electric sedan (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/xpeng-p7-review-the-companys-making-headlines-but-how-is-the-car/), and pronounced it pretty darn good—it had “perhaps 75 percent of the features and capability of a Tesla,” and at the time, carried about 50 percent of the price tag. (That may no longer be the case, thanks to Tesla (https://insideevs.com/tesla/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)’s recent price cuts, but the Chinese brands’ prices are still tempting.)
"

Not sure china will take over the car world.

Things do change rather fast in the car industry here of course. It may be all about the money for some. Quality, capability and longevity are keys attributes I think may see this all turn on its head again inside a few years.

[Narangga]

"Too early and too risky": Toyota confirms go-slow on electric vehicles in Australia (https://thedriven.io/2023/02/01/too-early-and-too-risky-toyota-confirms-go-slow-on-electric-vehicles-in-australia/)

Only Toyota vehicles welcome to use their chargers - Oh What a Feeling [bigsad]

[NavyDiver]

"Too early and too risky": Toyota confirms go-slow on electric vehicles in Australia (https://thedriven.io/2023/02/01/too-early-and-too-risky-toyota-confirms-go-slow-on-electric-vehicles-in-australia/)

Only Toyota vehicles welcome to use their chargers - Oh What a Feeling [bigsad]
"See: Toyota faces disaster unless new CEO performs miracle pivot to electric vehicles (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota-faces-disaster-unless-new-ceo-performs-miracle-pivot-to-electric-vehicles/)"
was the bottom line[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Almost funny when you put it that way.

Dealers with chargers are bit common here. None share access and none have after hours for those they allow to use them [bighmmm]

Back to toyota link

Below the graph is



"What these numbers reflect is that technology shifts don’t happen in a linear fashion and that once certain market thresholds are reached, growth can accelerate dramatically. In the case of Germany and the UK, EV share was below 5% for ten years but once that share reached 5-10%, it then grew rapidly to a 33% in just 2 years."

Australia at 5% is a few years from that statistic possibly.

Check the Science thread for an almost impossible amazing recycling option for almost everything to ethanol and much more .

I personally find this more than interesting as "Ethanol has five times higher volumetric energy density (6.7 kWh/L) than hydrogen (1.3 kWh/L) and can be used safely in fuel cells for power generation."

A direct swap for all petrol stations perhaps? [bigwhistle]

[Narangga]

"See: Toyota faces disaster unless new CEO performs miracle pivot to electric vehicles (https://thedriven.io/2023/01/30/toyota-faces-disaster-unless-new-ceo-performs-miracle-pivot-to-electric-vehicles/)"
was the bottom line[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Almost funny when you put it that way.

Dealers with chargers are bit common here. None share access and none have after hours for those they allow to use them [bighmmm]

Back to toyota link

Below the graph is



"What these numbers reflect is that technology shifts don’t happen in a linear fashion and that once certain market thresholds are reached, growth can accelerate dramatically. In the case of Germany and the UK, EV share was below 5% for ten years but once that share reached 5-10%, it then grew rapidly to a 33% in just 2 years."

Australia at 5% is a few years from that statistic possibly.

Check the Science thread for an almost impossible amazing recycling option for almost everything to ethanol and much more .

I personally find this more than interesting as "Ethanol has five times higher volumetric energy density (6.7 kWh/L) than hydrogen (1.3 kWh/L) and can be used safely in fuel cells for power generation."

A direct swap for all petrol stations perhaps? [bigwhistle]

I missed that the good ship Toyota was going to have a new skipper.

Yes I have already referenced technology adaption trends- Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle)

On the numbers Australia is barely at 3%

And to think Holden went E85 but the industry stuck with E10. https://www.drive.com.au/news/2011-holden-commodore-ve-series-ii-gets-flex-fuel-e85-compatibility/

[Homestar]

Yeah, 3.3% or something like that of new car sales last year, but up 65% on the previous year so growing quickly. I think Australia won't quite have the same graphing in coming years as other countries though as there are a lot of differences in the AU market compared to anywhere in the Northern Hemisphere. Tiny population density and rusted on 'good ol boys' driving Hilux's and Rangers are a couple of the biggest that come to mind.

For example - I live 35 minutes from the City, it is a large town (15th highest by population in Vic) and there are only a few EV's that I've seen regularly - and guess how many public charging stations we've got - go one - we must be heaps in a large town with a pretty centralized population - perfect place for EV's as they fit the bill for commuting, etc from here - yep - just one.... At the Hungry Jacks, which isn't even in the main shopping area of town - If that's where a town of 30,000 people is at, 35 minutes from the CBD - that is fairly wealthy overall - I can't see a rise to any meaningful number any time soon. I also don't know a single person who is considering an EV as their next vehicle - not one. It's a conversation that is often discussed but the answers are very familiar to us.

Not sure what the answer is - I don't think it's a mass uptake of EV's though, that just doesn't seem to be resonating with the masses at the moment and the more it gets shved down peoples throats the more they will push back on it.

[NavyDiver]

I missed that the good ship Toyota was going to have a new skipper.

Yes I have already referenced technology adaption trends- Technology adoption life cycle - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle)

On the numbers Australia is barely at 3%

And to think Holden went E85 but the industry stuck with E10. https://www.drive.com.au/news/2011-holden-commodore-ve-series-ii-gets-flex-fuel-e85-compatibility/
About to post in General Chat Science. Very very cool I think

[NavyDiver]

2500 rivian sold and they can IF they add a night shift get to 70,000 per year!

Then 6% of the workers sacked? Rivian is laying off 6 percent of its employees — again (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/rivian-is-laying-off-6-percent-of-its-employees-again/ar-AA170hrk)


Life is tough in the Auto industry EV or not!

Noted a very new Deefer parked in a disabled parking spot today. I almost took a photo- Knowing a "Disabled Parking Shame" page would see it I walked past twice without doing it [tonguewink]

Edit- as my daily post limit reached [biggrin]

"But the most important feature by far is the portable, renewable energy unit that will be used to charge the Ariya Pole to Pole expedition vehicle (https://insideevs.com/news/631310/nissan-ariya-pole-to-pole-expedition-video/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) in the polar regions. The towable prototype includes a packable, lightweight wind turbine and solar panels that will harness the high winds and long daylight hours to provide charge for the EV's battery when Chris and Julie Ramsey stop to rest.
Nissan previously said a second modified Ariya will act as a support vehicle, so we can assume it will tow the generator, which hasn't been shown yet. "We are doing something that has never been attempted before, a world-first, and ultimately that is what makes it so exciting," said"

The really big news is "The Nissan Ariya (https://insideevs.com/nissan/ariya/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) will also feature some unusual amenities onboard, such as a specially integrated espresso machine with a good supply of sustainable coffee and a drone that can launch directly from the utility unit on the roof."

Good coffee? I will be watching this one [bigrolf]

Its "Nissan Ariya Pole To Pole Expedition SUV To Use Towable Generator (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/nissan-ariya-pole-to-pole-expedition-suv-to-use-towable-generator/ar-AA16ZMjX?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=06bb5a61b2924f6198ae0cc5cb6a441d)"

[Narangga]

BYD Atto 3 charges up at a Tesla Supercharger in Australia (https://thedriven.io/2023/02/03/byd-atto-3s-charges-at-a-tesla-supercharger-in-australia/)

[spudfan]

What Mazda think of the EV future
This is a quote from the article in the link"
"As more and more EVs are produced, batteries and related materials will become more scarce. Having a whole host of EVs traveling on city commutes while carrying a heavy, 350-mile-range battery pack may not seem so wise if you really think about it."
Mazda's USA CEO Says Longer-Range EVs Aren't Sustainable (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/mazda-s-usa-ceo-says-longer-range-evs-aren-t-sustainable/ar-AA174eSU?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f0fa27ff0feb4a6a8404099d4c7fd40d)
And on a different topic, it seems charging your EV might not be as straight forward as you would like!
GM Tells Chevy Bolt EV Owner It's “Not Responsible” For Fast Charging At Non-Approved Public Stations
[UPDATE] GM Tells Chevy Bolt EV Owner It's “Not Responsible” For Fast Charging At Non-Approved Public Stations (https://insideevs.com/news/650743/chevy-bolt-recalled-battery-no-fast-charge/)
Trouble here waiting on a replacement battery for an EV
Kona EV not charging after battery recall
Kona EV not charging after battery recall | Hyundai Kona Forum (https://www.hyundaikonaforum.com/threads/kona-ev-not-charging-after-battery-recall.4991/)

[NavyDiver]

BYD Atto 3 charges up at a Tesla Supercharger in Australia (https://thedriven.io/2023/02/03/byd-atto-3s-charges-at-a-tesla-supercharger-in-australia/)

Colac Telsa charges are alway empty while I spend an hour on the slow ones to get me to a fast one :rulez::rulez::rulez:

On the topic I see "After a recall-related battery replacement, this Bolt EV is no longer able to DC fast charge.Chevrolet is recalling every 2017-2022 Bolt EV and 2022 Bolt EUV to replace their batteries due to an issue that has resulted in several fires (https://insideevs.com/news/533020/chevrolet-bolt-ev-fire-georgia/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). For one owner, that recall process might be causing additional headaches. The owner alleges that after getting the new pack, his 2021 Bolt EV no longer supports DC fast charging. This person has taken it back to the dealer at least twice, and the technicians claimed that the chargers he was using were actually the problem.
The owner then went onto the Chevy Bolt EV Owners Facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/chevyboltevowners/permalink/3352717838373152/'mibextid=Nif5oz) in hopes of finding a solution. Chevrolet (https://insideevs.com/chevrolet/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) also responded to him on Facebook. In part, the automaker’s social media team said:


"After discussing the situation, the dealership informed us that after diagnosing the vehicle, they determined that the vehicle works when using a GM Approved charger at both your home, and at a certified GM dealership. Please know, as this situation is only happening when attempting to use public chargers, GM is not responsible for charging concerns when using non-GM approved public charging stations."
This wasn't what the owner wanted to hear. He claimed to have tested the Bolt on three brands of chargers from five different locations. This included charge points at Electrify America and EV Go – a company that General Motors has a partnership with."

That is interesting[bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Not bagging Musk. his billions lost must hurt more than a UK Diver who is not a peado might [biggrin]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

What Mazda think of the EV future
This is a quote from the article in the link"
"As more and more EVs are produced, batteries and related materials will become more scarce. Having a whole host of EVs traveling on city commutes while carrying a heavy, 350-mile-range battery pack may not seem so wise if you really think about it."
Mazda's USA CEO Says Longer-Range EVs Aren't Sustainable (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/mazda-s-usa-ceo-says-longer-range-evs-aren-t-sustainable/ar-AA174eSU?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f0fa27ff0feb4a6a8404099d4c7fd40d)
And on a different topic, it seems charging your EV might not be as straight forward as you would like!
GM Tells Chevy Bolt EV Owner It's “Not Responsible” For Fast Charging At Non-Approved Public Stations
[UPDATE] GM Tells Chevy Bolt EV Owner It's “Not Responsible” For Fast Charging At Non-Approved Public Stations (https://insideevs.com/news/650743/chevy-bolt-recalled-battery-no-fast-charge/)
Trouble here waiting on a replacement battery for an EV
Kona EV not charging after battery recall
Kona EV not charging after battery recall | Hyundai Kona Forum (https://www.hyundaikonaforum.com/threads/kona-ev-not-charging-after-battery-recall.4991/)

If you like Mazdas I suggest you buy one now while you still can. [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

About to post in General Chat Science. Very very cool I think
Toyota have had their Oh No moment and are now frantically doing all they can to try and delay the inevitable.

It's as ever super complex. I'm not sure if Toyota will survive. Mortal wounding seems inevitable.

One thing is for sure, I'm pretty certain Toyota and the Japanese car industry will look back probably at the 2010's as the zenith.

[Narangga]

Colac Telsa charges are alway empty while I spend an hour on the slow ones to get me to a fast one :rulez::rulez::rulez:

Don't hold your breath. Due to the erratic nature of the comments and actions of the founder (:eek2:) who knows when it will happen. :spudnikwhat:

[JDNSW]

"Tesla was incorporated in July 2003 by Martin Eberhard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Eberhard) and Marc Tarpenning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning) as Tesla Motors."

I have not heard anything about either of these for years, and I am not sure which one you are talking about. Maybe you are talking about the "white knight" who saved the company in 2004 with a cash injection? There has certainly been a lot of erratic comments and actions (as well as court cases etc) from him,but he was not the founder of the company.

[simonmelb]

Not in Euroa - the Tesla fast charging station up there is usually around 1/2 full when I’ve seen it a few times this Year. On Saturday only 1 spot free.

Anyway - does get me thinking every time I see it, should I even consider spending $120K on a new diesel Grenadier?!


Colac Telsa charges are alway empty while I spend an hour on the slow ones to get me to a fast one :rulez::rulez::rulez:

On the topic I see "After a recall-related battery replacement, this Bolt EV is no longer able to DC fast charge.

Chevrolet is recalling every 2017-2022 Bolt EV and 2022 Bolt EUV to replace their batteries due to an issue that has resulted in several fires (https://insideevs.com/news/533020/chevrolet-bolt-ev-fire-georgia/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). For one owner, that recall process might be causing additional headaches. The owner alleges that after getting the new pack, his 2021 Bolt EV no longer supports DC fast charging. This person has taken it back to the dealer at least twice, and the technicians claimed that the chargers he was using were actually the problem.
The owner then went onto the Chevy Bolt EV Owners Facebook group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/chevyboltevowners/permalink/3352717838373152/'mibextid=Nif5oz) in hopes of finding a solution. Chevrolet (https://insideevs.com/chevrolet/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) also responded to him on Facebook. In part, the automaker’s social media team said:

"After discussing the situation, the dealership informed us that after diagnosing the vehicle, they determined that the vehicle works when using a GM Approved charger at both your home, and at a certified GM dealership. Please know, as this situation is only happening when attempting to use public chargers, GM is not responsible for charging concerns when using non-GM approved public charging stations."

This wasn't what the owner wanted to hear. He claimed to have tested the Bolt on three brands of chargers from five different locations. This included charge points at Electrify America and EV Go – a company that General Motors has a partnership with."

That is interesting[bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Not bagging Musk. his billions lost must hurt more than a UK Diver who is not a peado might [biggrin]

[Xtreme]

There's three EV charging stations in the private school parking area across the road from me. Only ever seen one car hooked up so far, although I don't walk past there very often.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

"Tesla was incorporated in July 2003 by Martin Eberhard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Eberhard) and Marc Tarpenning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning) as Tesla Motors."

I have not heard anything about either of these for years, and I am not sure which one you are talking about. Maybe you are talking about the "white knight" who saved the company in 2004 with a cash injection? There has certainly been a lot of erratic comments and actions (as well as court cases etc) from him,but he was not the founder of the company.
And people Forget there is a whole board of directors who are also in charge of the company, and 80k workers.

Meanwhile people will happily say "I'll never buy a Tesla because of musk". Which is fine. But they will then buy a competing product from another manufacturer and not make any attempt to verify the sanity or otherwise of their board of directors. The problem is someone needs to take Musks phone off him.

[Homestar]

And people Forget there is a whole board of directors who are also in charge of the company, and 80k workers.

Meanwhile people will happily say "I'll never buy a Tesla because of musk". Which is fine. But they will then buy a competing product from another manufacturer and not make any attempt to verify the sanity or otherwise of their board of directors. The problem is someone needs to take Musks phone off him.

No, the problem is Musk is a complete fruit loop and a rip off merchant IMO.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No, the problem is Musk is a fruit loop rip off merchant.
And the management at BMW/Mercedes/VW were ok with gassing monkeys to prove their diesels didn't kill people. The current CEO of hyundai has been convicted of massive bribery of politicians. Hyundai was ok with dumping ships into poor companies for disposal through whatever means. Let's not mention dieselgate. Are we ok with that?

I could go on... The only difference is Musk is a public figure that everyone knows about.

[Homestar]

And the management at BMW/Mercedes/VW were ok with gassing monkeys to prove their diesels didn't kill people. The current CEO of hyundai has been convicted of massive bribery of politicians. Hyundai was ok with dumping ships into poor companies for disposal through whatever means. Let's not mention dieselgate. Are we ok with that?

I could go on... The only difference is Musk is a public figure that everyone knows about.

Where did I say I love any of those retards either? Just because you love electric Jesus and have been hoodwinked by his BS it doesn’t mean we all have to.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Where did I say I love any of those retards either? Just because you love electric Jesus and have been hoodwinked by his BS it doesn’t mean we all have to.
Lol. So who are you going to buy a car off? Who are you going to buy anything off? I reckon there is ample dirt on all of them. Including JLR. Who's on the JLR Board? Do you even know?

My point no one actually meaningfully does any investigation about who they are buying stuff from. They just know they hate EM. Meanwhile they buy whatever off all manner of companies blissfully unaware...

Completely illogical.

Meanwhile if it wasn't for Tesla we'd still be looking at the Nissan Leaf saying "no one wants that rubbish.. batteries fail every few years.. range anxiety etc etc". Tesla has materially forced the commencement of electrification of the whole car industry by holding a very large gun at their heads. A good few of them probably won't make it either.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Where did I say I love any of those retards either? Just because you love electric Jesus and have been hoodwinked by his BS it doesn’t mean we all have to.
I was going to buy a Subway for lunch? Should I? It turns out that their tuna might not have tuna, and their spokeman had some not very nice allegations against him.

I'm pretty hungry? Should I ignore that just this one time? Or now that I know should I shun the business forever? I mean if one of the directors of Tesla does something to twitter in his private life.. I guess I should forever hate on the company of which he is on the board of, with several other people who I don't know anything about? Never mind the 80,000 people that work for Tesla.. are they all evil too?

I mean I don't know if you've noticed, that virtually all companies have a nutcase involved with them somehow.

A fishy business? Getting to the bottom of Subway's tuna controversy (https://www.newfoodmagazine.com/article/156461/a-fishy-business/)

The rise and very steep fall of Subway: Jared Fogle pedophile scandal and controversy over tunagate | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11628649/The-rise-steep-fall-Subway-Jared-Fogle-pedophile-scandal-controversy-tunagate.html)

[Homestar]

What car would I buy? That’s a good question - and after 18 months of looking I actually haven’t found one available new that I like or would buy to be honest.

I have a company car, an old Jag and 2 old Land Rovers and I’m actually looking for a new car to suit my needs (will still be a company car but I’m being allowed to choose something within the set budget) so I actually have been doing a lot of research- not just into the cars but the companies as well.

I wouldn’t buy anything from the VW stable or associated stables due to the arseholedness. I can’t get a Toyota of any description in any reasonable length of time even though that is works preferred choice so they are currently out as well, which sort of leaves me scratching my head a bit to be honest as I can’t seem to find anything that fits the bill.

All that aside I don’t like electric Jesus because more than anything else he’s a straight out lier and deceives people into investing in his nutty ideas - I don’t see and can’t work out for the life of me why anyone supports or likes him - he just makes my skin crawl and rather than you point out anything to the contrary you just say they should take his mobile off him and others are just as bad? Is that the only defence of him there is?

I’d quit while I’m ahead to be honest, if you can assist me with an idea of a vehicle I should buy then I’m all ears.

Requirements are:-
Not a dual cab as I want something comfy to drive and won’t make my kidneys bleed - I haven’t found one yet that I can live with in this regard.
Diesel - as work supplies this from their 30K litre tank so pay lots less than you or I do.
Can tow 2 tonne easily - needs to tow my 1,700kg Van without struggling.
Budget is $80K

At one point it had to be a commercial vehicle but they are moving away from this stipulation now so it opens things up a bit.

As to what I’d buy if it was my money - I just haven’t found a new car I like enough to come up with an answer to that one.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

What car would I buy? That’s a good question - and after 18 months of looking I actually haven’t found one available new that I like or would buy to be honest.

I have a company car, an old Jag and 2 old Land Rovers and I’m actually looking for a new car to suit my needs (will still be a company car but I’m being allowed to choose something within the set budget) so I actually have been doing a lot of research- not just into the cars but the companies as well.

I wouldn’t buy anything from the VW stable or associated stables due to the arseholedness. I can’t get a Toyota of any description in any reasonable length of time even though that is works preferred choice so they are currently out as well, which sort of leaves me scratching my head a bit to be honest as I can’t seem to find anything that fits the bill.

All that aside I don’t like electric Jesus because more than anything else he’s a straight out lier and deceives people into investing in his nutty ideas - I don’t see and can’t work out for the life of me why anyone supports or likes him - he just makes my skin crawl and rather than you point out anything to the contrary you just say they should take his mobile off him and others are just as bad? Is that the only defence of him there is?

I’d quit while I’m ahead to be honest, if you can assist me with an idea of a vehicle I should buy then I’m all ears.

Requirements are:-
Not a dual cab as I want something comfy to drive and won’t make my kidneys bleed - I haven’t found one yet that I can live with in this regard.
Diesel - as work supplies this from their 30K litre tank so pay lots less than you or I do.
Can tow 2 tonne easily - needs to tow my 1,700kg Van without struggling.
Budget is $80K

At one point it had to be a commercial vehicle but they are moving away from this stipulation now so it opens things up a bit.

As to what I’d buy if it was my money - I just haven’t found a new car I like enough to come up with an answer to that one.

I think a key thing I get from that is the linkage between buying a car and seeing it being supportive of EM. I don't like him but I don't necessarily think buying a Tesla means I support him in anyway. It's kind of like when people say "You ride a bike.. why do you people always...". The answer is just because I ride a bike doesn't mean I'm in any way responsible for the actions of anyone else. Nor do I have insights into why they behave that way. It's called outgroup thinking or something like that.

I worked for years as a Oracle database person. The owner of Oracle, Larry Ellison. Not my kind of person. Probably far worse than EM. At least with EM you know what he's doing. Anyway.. what do you do. Oracle is a big company. Yes probably Ellison got a tiny fraction of the money - but personally I don't see the link. I sure as hell can't be vetting every company to work out whether all the investors in it are above board.

But as this thread is about EV's. I support EV's for applications that are suitable for them. In EV's the only choice you have is Tesla, Hyundai (who are bringing in a handful of cars a year), or one of the Chinese brands which are unknowns in so many ways. There are a few other manufacturers selling adapted ICE cars but that's not my thing.

As to what car you should buy.. no idea. :D Your budget is nearly twice what I paid for my defender.. but you don't get much for that any more. Proper EV replacements for offroad vehicles are likely some years away.

[NavyDiver]

I think a key thing I get from that is the linkage between buying a car and s Proper EV replacements for offroad vehicles are likely some years away.
I hope not

2025 is my time limit putting up with the short range one and use of My Disco for the 4wd and towing. I do not like paying twice for rego and insurance! Solid state or hydrogen is my only hopes. It would be nice to actually know.

I am unable to buy a brand mentioned often for reasons I just could not lower myself to do it. My thoughts only of course, People can do as they please.

Ford is ramping up options. Landrover might pull a swifty. Korea is a possibility, Nikola went awol for the badger[tonguewink] "Toyota has unveiled the 2022 bZ4X Concept SUV that provides an insight into the marque’s future that will see its electrified portfolio [B]expand to 70 models globally by 2025."
just might surprise us[bighmmm]


The Indian Kerfuffle going on might bite Landrovers plans.[bigsad]

Claims that "The Rivian R1T will arrive in Australia after Rivian launches in Europe in 2023" might give an option yet I am not in the plan for that myself.

Range and charge/ refueling is still a long way off in so much of our huge country.

Such is Life

[Narangga]

"Tesla was incorporated in July 2003 by Martin Eberhard (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Eberhard) and Marc Tarpenning (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Tarpenning) as Tesla Motors."

I have not heard anything about either of these for years, and I am not sure which one you are talking about. Maybe you are talking about the "white knight" who saved the company in 2004 with a cash injection? There has certainly been a lot of erratic comments and actions (as well as court cases etc) from him,but he was not the founder of the company.

Yes that is correct John - and who I am talking about.

[JDNSW]

Yes that is correct John - and who I am talking about.

That is what I guessed - but he is not the founder of the company.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes that is correct John - and who I am talking about.
See this is the thing. People are aware of EM of course. But Tesla has a whole board of management. And under that obviously an army of managers and engineers. I'm sure people like to credit EM for everything Tesla do. In reality the most likely outcome is EM is more likely to be someone who is informed at a board level. He probably has input into some very high level decisions with the rest of the board. He's also selling down his stake in the company.

I find it the hight of irrationality to dismiss the work of 80k people because one of them i lives publicly and you don't like their actions (which are largely taken in their private capacity and are not the actions of Tesla the company and the board). Can we not see that differentiation?

As I've noted before, without the actions of that 80k people (of which we only know one) we would still be looking at a Nissan Leaf and saying "that's a bit rubbish.. the batteries only last a few years. EV's are not the answer". The car industry has had electrification forced upon it by Tesla at gunpoint. Many will not survive.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I hope not

2025 is my time limit putting up with the short range one and use of My Disco for the 4wd and towing. I do not like paying twice for rego and insurance! Solid state or hydrogen is my only hopes. It would be nice to actually know.

I am unable to buy a brand mentioned often for reasons I just could not lower myself to do it. My thoughts only of course, People can do as they please.

Ford is ramping up options. Landrover might pull a swifty. Korea is a possibility, Nikola went awol for the badger[tonguewink] "Toyota has unveiled the 2022 bZ4X Concept SUV that provides an insight into the marque’s future that will see its electrified portfolio [B]expand to 70 models globally by 2025."
just might surprise us[bighmmm]


The Indian Kerfuffle going on might bite Landrovers plans.[bigsad]

Claims that "The Rivian R1T will arrive in Australia after Rivian launches in Europe in 2023" might give an option yet I am not in the plan for that myself.

Range and charge/ refueling is still a long way off in so much of our huge country.

Such is Life

So, the things I've learnt about EV's. Even the insanely big batteries they have only hold a tiny tiny amount of energy compared to fossil fuel. In EV's, everything is about efficiency. It's the biggest factor.

Some fun facts.

- Real Landrover Defender drag .59.
- New Discovery thing .40
- Rivian EV 4x4 .30 (although there is debate about the veracity of this claim).
- Most good EV's .23.

The aerodynamic properties of modern EV's are a revelation. There were cars at those numbers in the past, but certainly not large scale production cars that were essentially normal cars.

On top of aerodynamic efficiency, there are other factors like motor efficiency and weight but I don't think these are big players.

Anyway the upshot of that is that it's going to be very very difficult to make an EV 4x4 really efficient. So that means really big battery packs and expensive running. The batteries in the rivian are 105 kWh, 135 kWh, and 180 kWh. Compare this with a most of the normal EV's which are typically 60-80 for the ones with over 400k of range.

Anyway the upshot is it's going to be a few years before battery density and cost fall to a point where they are going to be in your budget. I'm certainly not saying never, but I feel confident to say it won't be 2025. You've just got to hope that Tesla keeps pushing things. [bigrolf]

Article on the aerodynamics of rivian.

Rivian R1T Low Drag Coefficient Claims Analyzed In Virtual Wind Tunnel (https://insideevs.com/news/611642/rivian-r1t-aerodynamics-drag-coefficient-simulatiion/)

Article on 4x4 aero efficiency.

Range and Aerodynamics in Converted EV's (https://www.electriccarconverts.com/insights/range-and-aerodynamics-in-converted-evs-and-a-reality-check-against-production-electric-cars/)

Youtube on energy density which I think is pretty good.
Why Gas Engines Are Far From Dead - Biggest EV Problems - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Hatav_Rdnno)

[NavyDiver]

While this might fit in Hydrogen as a car and truck where involved I think EV thread fits.
Known for years the Hindenburg was both tragic and often misused to blame hydrogen. Fire, the Crash and falling did kill people of course sadly

A Film "The Glass Onion" does the same to Hydrogen Like it despite the slag of at Hydrogen [thumbsupbig] (Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj5ibYSz8C0))



This is very cool. Headline is [B]Truck carrying Hydrogen explodes! What it clearly shows is the controlled burn of Hydrogen as two jets and the uncontrolled burn of the crashed truck and car.

Had the truck been carrying LPG or Petrol the outcome would have been tragic. I think it a great example of hydrogen safety myself!

Truck carrying hydrogen fuel explodes after crash, shuts down US-23 in Delaware County (https://www.10tv.com/article/news/local/vehicle-carrying-hydrogen-fuel-explodes-crash-us-23-delaware-county/530-cc78396e-489c-4926-bbb9-66c50558d17a)

The claim "When the truck and the Toyota collided, the containers ignited and caused the truck to catch on fire. The Orange Township Fire Department said the flames melted traffic lights and caused damage to utility lines" is possibly upside down. Suspect the fire may have been car or truck which started the Hydrogen which is clearly the jets straight up in the air nice and safely!

No one died happily.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

While this might fit in Hydrogen as a car and truck where involved I think EV thread fits.
Known for years the Hindenburg was both tragic and often misused to blame hydrogen. Fire, the Crash and falling did kill people of course sadly

A Film "The Glass Onion" does the same to Hydrogen Like it despite the slag of at Hydrogen [thumbsupbig] (Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj5ibYSz8C0))



This is very cool. Headline is [B]Truck carrying Hydrogen explodes! What it clearly shows is the controlled burn of Hydrogen as two jets and the uncontrolled burn of the crashed truck and car.

Had the truck been carrying LPG or Petrol the outcome would have been tragic. I think it a great example of hydrogen safety myself!

Truck carrying hydrogen fuel explodes after crash, shuts down US-23 in Delaware County (https://www.10tv.com/article/news/local/vehicle-carrying-hydrogen-fuel-explodes-crash-us-23-delaware-county/530-cc78396e-489c-4926-bbb9-66c50558d17a)

The claim "When the truck and the Toyota collided, the containers ignited and caused the truck to catch on fire. The Orange Township Fire Department said the flames melted traffic lights and caused damage to utility lines" is possibly upside down. Suspect the fire may have been car or truck which started the Hydrogen which is clearly the jets straight up in the air nice and safely!

No one died happily.
Well there is two types of hydrogen fuelled vehicles.

First type burns the hydrogen in an adapted petrol engine. Downside with this is you need a lot of hydrogen and it is pretty low density and needs very strong tanks to hold it. So there would be little space left over for the occupants. There is also some debate about emissions from hydrogen engines, particularly NOX :D

The second type uses a hydrogen fuel cell. They are essentially EV's with a small battery. The fuel cell seems to make better use of the hydrogen so they don't need to store nearly as much. These are the hydrogen cars that are "available" now. The packaging is still not at all efficient compared to an ev or even a normal petrol car. The really big issue with these is that by the time you've generated the electricity to produce the hydrogen, compressed it, then sent it through a fuel cell to make power to run the motors.. all those steps result in a process that isn't very efficient. IE of the original electricity not much of it is actually used to drive the car. Unlike an EV where most of it does. Unless you have truly truly abundant green power this is a distraction.

The upside with hydrogen is that any leaks disappear up into the atmosphere very very quickly. Unlike liquid fuel which tends to form big puddles under the vehicle. I guess it's only an issue if one of the tanks explodes.. but they are supposed to be **very** strong. I think with the hindenberg the problem was the bags contained the hydrogen burned.

I see fire as one of the peripheral issues of hydrogen. There are a great many other far more significant reasons why it's a really silly idea though.

[Homestar]

I think there will have to be a mix of battery and hydrogen EV’s going forward though. While I agree converting electricity to hydrogen and back again is inefficient it does have the advantage of being moved to areas where electrical infrastructure won’t allow much in the way of EV charging - think pretty much any rural town - their grids don’t have much spare capacity and as someone that works in the industry - they aren’t going to get upgraded either as the cost would push electricity prices up 10 fold then no one would be able to afford to charge their EV’s anyway.

There’s no perfect solution if we all want to keep driving around as much as we do. EV’s good for city and commuter work and hydrogen for longer distances or further out.

[Tins]

The Hindenburg disaster was in 1937. A lot can change in 85 years, including government regulations.

There are a lot of powerful, high profile companies in the business of transport, passenger and goods, and mining infrastructure who have definitely. not written off hydrogen ICEs.

This video discusses Cummins' approach. Is the presenter right in his assessment? Who knows at this point. Like I said, a lot can, and probably will, change.


https://youtu.be/SL1ukYK4_DY

[NavyDiver]

This is just good fun[biggrin]

Doubt any or many of us will ever get one of these three
The beasts V the quiet and deadly- No a smelly quiet but deadly [thumbsupbig]



https://www.youtube.com/watch'time_continue=299&v=TYRpzBKdDJI&embeds_euri= https%3A%2F%2Fwww.carscoops.com%2F&feature=emb_log o

[NavyDiver]

Costs up- EV cost money as well of course ( Unless I am charging at home when sun is shining like now )

[B]"On Monday, 13 February 2023, our 50kW public fast chargers will increase in price from 40c per kWh to 45c per kWh.


Our 350kW ultra-fast chargers will not change, remaining at 60c per kWh.

This is the first price increase we have made since 2020 and is reflective of the increased cost of energy."

Another few charging types increased costs a bit as well.



Mean while back in the Disco price is about $2 per litre so at 10lt per km cost is about $20 for fuel only. ( it costs a bit more with the boat on)
My short quirky Ev is perhaps17kWh so $7.65 ish for fuel only.

Not going to talk about the main cost pain with my Disco[bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

Costs up- EV cost money as well of course ( Unless I am charging at home when sun is shining like now )

[B]"On Monday, 13 February 2023, our 50kW public fast chargers will increase in price from 40c per kWh to 45c per kWh.


Our 350kW ultra-fast chargers will not change, remaining at 60c per kWh.

This is the first price increase we have made since 2020 and is reflective of the increased cost of energy."

Another few charging types increased costs a bit as well.



Mean while back in the Disco price is about $2 per litre so at 10lt per km cost is about $20 for fuel only. ( it costs a bit more with the boat on)
My short quirky Ev is perhaps17kWh so $7.65 ish for fuel only.

Not going to talk about the main cost pain with my Disco[bigwhistle]







Watch it change soon though - when they put an excise like charge on power for EVs to cover roads etc..

If we take that $2.00 per litre for 10 litres theres $4.60 in excise in there

Now take the $0.45 / And add the same charge and its $15.47 for your quirky EV

[NavyDiver]

Watch it change soon though - when they put an excise like charge on power for EVs to cover roads etc..

If we take that $2.00 per litre for 10 litres theres $4.60 in excise in there

Now take the $0.45 / And add the same charge and its $15.47 for your quirky EV

I am paying the Ev Road use tax - whoops excise[thumbsupbig] here in Vic. Agree we all need nice roads unless off road Sir [thumbsupbig]

Edit- There is a ongoing high court challenge about state tax and that which might change that. It might need to be a federal tax[bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Costs up- EV cost money as well of course ( Unless I am charging at home when sun is shining like now )

[B]"On Monday, 13 February 2023, our 50kW public fast chargers will increase in price from 40c per kWh to 45c per kWh.


Our 350kW ultra-fast chargers will not change, remaining at 60c per kWh.

This is the first price increase we have made since 2020 and is reflective of the increased cost of energy."

Another few charging types increased costs a bit as well.



Mean while back in the Disco price is about $2 per litre so at 10lt per km cost is about $20 for fuel only. ( it costs a bit more with the boat on)
My short quirky Ev is perhaps17kWh so $7.65 ish for fuel only.

Not going to talk about the main cost pain with my Disco[bigwhistle]






I didn't mention this in the spray above about efficiency. But an EV ute if it looses the efficiency with aero .. the gap to petrol might not be that big. I think The Tesla I have on order is around 15kwh/100 (They are some of the most efficient). Which at my electricity rate (20c per kwh)is only about $3 per 100k. Less if I charge off solar. My Defender is about 12/100 which is about $25 per hundred. [bigsad]

Some of the big 4x4 and vans can be up to nearly 30kwh/100 at that rate is more like $6. But if you are doing fast charging out of the home.. at like .66.. that's $19.8 per 100.

Something to think about.

[Tins]

Watch it change soon though - when they put an excise like charge on power for EVs to cover roads etc..

If we take that $2.00 per litre for 10 litres theres $4.60 in excise in there

Now take the $0.45 / And add the same charge and its $15.47 for your quirky EV

That's the thing so many people overlook. Right now there are financial incentives to get people into the things. Does anyone seriously believe that various govts will forego revenue indefinitely? That London will continue to exempt EVs from the Congestion Tax? That EVs will continue to be charged at a discounted rate anywhere in the world? That big electricity generators will continue to upgrade the grids out of the goodness of their hearts? And yes, as Mike says, who will pay for the roads?

All those who could afford the initial outlay for home solar a decade ago got all sorts of financial benefits at the expense of those who could not. The same thing is happening here, only this time it's far worse for the poorer in our society for who a new car purchase, any new car purchase, is a dream. And I know something for sure, and that is there's no way I'd buy a second hand Tesla.

[Tombie]

I didn't mention this in the spray above about efficiency. But an EV ute if it looses the efficiency with aero .. the gap to petrol might not be that big. I think The Tesla I have on order is around 15kwh/100 (They are some of the most efficient). Which at my electricity rate (20c per kwh)is only about $3 per 100k. Less if I charge off solar. My Defender is about 12/100 which is about $25 per hundred. [bigsad]

Some of the big 4x4 and vans can be up to nearly 30kwh/100 at that rate is more like $6. But if you are doing fast charging out of the home.. at like .66.. that's $19.8 per 100.

Something to think about.

The figure you’re quoting? Is that from Tesla?
Looking at the number you’re talking Model 3 RWD?
Add 20% minimum with HEVAC running.. so that’s 18kwh/100km

Based on all real world testing done - quoted range is about 20-25% less with the HEVAC on during a mild day.

I remember when we looked at Tesla, we pushed them to confirm their Long Range vehicle would actually make it to Adelaide from home. They were confident - right up until I pushed for with the AC running on a summers day over 25°c?

Silence, and then the response “there’s a charger at Clare”.

Even their longest range vehicle cannot make it 400km with the AC on. And that’s with a brand new battery. After a few years we cannot make it even with the AC off.

[4bee]

Costs up- EV cost money as well of course ( Unless I am charging at home when sun is shining like now )

[B]"On Monday, 13 February 2023, our 50kW public fast chargers will increase in price from 40c per kWh to 45c per kWh.


Our 350kW ultra-fast chargers will not change, remaining at 60c per kWh.

This is the first price increase we have made since 2020 and is reflective of the increased cost of energy."

Another few charging types increased costs a bit as well.



Mean while back in the Disco price is about $2 per litre so at 10lt per km cost is about $20 for fuel only. ( it costs a bit more with the boat on)
My short quirky Ev is perhaps17kWh so $7.65 ish for fuel only.

Not going to talk about the main cost pain with my Disco[bigwhistle]








I could see that was going to happen eventually with my V8 D 1.5 facelift, so got rid while it was still drive able. Up to that point it was a great vehicle. A week's fuel was then about A$100. With the CX3 it is about that for a Month or better. D1. Would have needed 4x New tyres, Engine a bit noisy & could have been a loose Top Hat or 2 etc etc but enjoyed her since '95. [bigsad]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The figure you’re quoting? Is that from Tesla?
Looking at the number you’re talking Model 3 RWD?
Add 20% minimum with HEVAC running.. so that’s 18kwh/100km

Based on all real world testing done - quoted range is about 20-25% less with the HEVAC on during a mild day.

I remember when we looked at Tesla, we pushed them to confirm their Long Range vehicle would actually make it to Adelaide from home. They were confident - right up until I pushed for with the AC running on a summers day over 25°c?

Silence, and then the response “there’s a charger at Clare”.

Even their longest range vehicle cannot make it 400km with the AC on. And that’s with a brand new battery. After a few years we cannot make it even with the AC off.

Interesting post. All EV's suffer on the highway. Most of the reviews I've seen are around 15 but I assume that's based on a mixed cycle. On a pure highway drive, particularly if you are pushing it doesn't surprise me it gets to 18.

Check the range variation on this real world based site.

Tesla Model Y (2022-2023) price and specifications - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/car/1743/Tesla-Model-Y)

[Tombie]

Interesting post. All EV's suffer on the highway. Most of the reviews I've seen are around 15 but I assume that's based on a mixed cycle. On a pure highway drive, particularly if you are pushing it doesn't surprise me it gets to 18.

Check the range variation on this real world based site.

Tesla Model Y (2022-2023) price and specifications - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/car/1743/Tesla-Model-Y)

Thanks for that… where’s the Hot weather figures?

It’s glass roofed, even a mild day in AU will have the AC on.

[Tins]

Thanks for that… where’s the Hot weather figures?

It’s glass roofed, even a mild day in AU will have the AC on.

Highway Mild Weather 320Km..... so from my place to Sydney requires 2 charging stops. Not my idea of " real world ". My D2 can do that trip with a splash and dash at Marulan. With the AC on, and the headlights ( always I drive mitt lights ).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Thanks for that… where’s the Hot weather figures?

It’s glass roofed, even a mild day in AU will have the AC on.
It's a euro site. I don't think the heat knocks them around nearly as much as the cold. What does kill range is high speed highway.

I think if it gets really hot they do use power to cool the batteries.

[Narangga]

Now let the wait begin... [bigsad]

[RANDLOVER]

Now let the wait begin... [bigsad]

Which EV have you ordered?

[spudfan]

This headline caught my eye. Norway: Plug-In Car Sales Collapsed By 80% In January 2023
Seems they are going to tax cars based on weight and vat will be applied to EV's over a certain price. Looks people only want to be "green" when they are subsidised to do it.
Norway: Plug-In Car Sales Collapsed By 80% In January 2023 (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/norway-plug-in-car-sales-collapsed-by-80-in-january-2023/ar-AA17fjoE?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6206bd6dec294f029e4fa4b08a8cfb0f)

[Narangga]

Which EV have you ordered?

One that will be delivered in June or July [bigwhistle]



Kia Niro EV S. Like the good Captain (Rightfoot) availing myself of the FBT exemption.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

One that will be delivered in June or July [bigwhistle]



Kia Niro EV S. Like the good Captain (Rightfoot) availing myself of the FBT exemption.
Nice. They are a neat car. Underrated IMHO. The facelift is a good upgrade too.

[NavyDiver]

Saw my first BMW EV this morning. Not entirely certain which one. Pure battery one as no engine air intake at all. At a guess I have seen 200% or more this year already than the entire of last year.

The FBT exemption will be taken up by a lot of people I think. Leased cars are back on the market in 3 years meaning the second hand market will be fatter than its currently slim volumes.

Not for Every one yet John!

BMW Electric Cars: Latest Info & Overview | BMW Australia (https://www.bmw.com/en-au/discover/electromobility/electric-cars.html)

[Tins]

Looks people only want to be "green" when they are subsidised to do it.


Good lord! Surely not!

Some people have been saying that for about a decade or so.

[Tins]

Not for Every one yet John!



No, James, but everyone still has to pay for it whether they like it or not.

[NavyDiver]

That's the thing so many people overlook. Right now there are financial incentives to get people into the things. Does anyone seriously believe that various govts will forego revenue indefinitely? That London will continue to exempt EVs from the Congestion Tax? That EVs will continue to be charged at a discounted rate anywhere in the world? That big electricity generators will continue to upgrade the grids out of the goodness of their hearts? And yes, as Mike says, who will pay for the roads?

All those who could afford the initial outlay for home solar a decade ago got all sorts of financial benefits at the expense of those who could not. The same thing is happening here, only this time it's far worse for the poorer in our society for who a new car purchase, any new car purchase, is a dream. And I know something for sure, and that is there's no way I'd buy a second hand Tesla.

After buying 2 Second hand D3s with a bloody motor fail in the current one I hear you What is interesting on Longevity of batteries is Toyota Prius promise to be a $3K replacement cost (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/cheaper-toyota-hybrid-batteries-promised-128517/).

Not suggesting Tesla can do that. The Giga factories being built will bring battery prices down and 2025 will add significantly better battery tech we have looked at. (I own some of them so It might be a very bad investment [bigrolf])

I do not like the Model 3 display - do not tell my wife!![thumbsupbig]

On an entirely other front GOOGLE ingrates to my one and many many others. The Meta BING and google AI integration soon will be very interesting.

My ev is not one pedal driving. The Tesla largely is. Both have a brake pedal. I have to use mine to stop fully.

A EV electronic guru here has hacked his/hers to provide one pedal and higher braking setting to a MG. Not at all sure what that does to the warranty of course. He/She is confident it is not an issue!

Software hacks to our computer type Landrovers are not uncommon. Flash to ECU chips is a hack.

I suspect issues with hacks via AI will add a layer of complexity to both EV and ICE fairly soon.

Some may be very good. The issue might not be so simple of course. [B]The Mistakes by the "BARD" cost shareholders 100 billion $USD (https://fortune.com/2023/02/08/google-bard-ai-mistake-ad-stock-price-market-cap/).

Quantum computing anyone [biggrin]