EV general discussion

[Tombie]

Until they take a few kwh and next day you cannot drive where you planned.

This entire concept of V2G is ludicrous. With Nuke base load it would be conceivable, with renewables (which they really aren’t as the minerals mined aren’t growing back any time soon) in their current form just can not keep us powered.

New gen chargers are incredibly high current, the grid will not cope if the uptake is forced. Its billions to get the grid up to speed, and then there now constant source. Slices of silica won’t be enough.

Comparing pool ownership to vehicle ownership is straw man at best, almost everyone has a car, only a small percentage have a pool. Nobody is mandating a pool! And a pool only pulls ~10a or less when the pumps on.

Local EV evangelist with a model 3 made me laugh.
He just got it, and so happy is he, he went and fitted $25k of solar and battery to charge it.

Quotes $38.00 for a return trip to Adelaide which has 2 charge stops for safety margin and 15min at each. The catch - he covers an extra 100km to follow the chargers.

Then tells me he’s so happy with the savings on fuel - and mocks my diesel consumption, all whilst paying off a Tesla and $25k of solar/battery system.

On the other hand - I generate solar and get $0.52c/kwh and get cash back every quarter. My cash back is about his solar payments. By the time he’s paid it off, he will need a new battery!

Electric grid on Nuke and ultra fast charge cells (no REEs) will be a game changer - until then EV owners are just ****ing the planet remotely and not locally.

[4bee]

Until they take a few kwh and next day you cannot drive where you planned.

This entire concept of V2G is ludicrous. With Nuke base load it would be conceivable, with renewables (which they really aren’t as the minerals mined aren’t growing back any time soon) in their current form just can not keep us powered.

New gen chargers are incredibly high current, the grid will not cope if the uptake is forced. Its billions to get the grid up to speed, and then there now constant source. Slices of silica won’t be enough.

Comparing pool ownership to vehicle ownership is straw man at best, almost everyone has a car, only a small percentage have a pool. Nobody is mandating a pool! And a pool only pulls ~10a or less when the pumps on.

Local EV evangelist with a model 3 made me laugh.
He just got it, and so happy is he, he went and fitted $25k of solar and battery to charge it.

Quotes $38.00 for a return trip to Adelaide which has 2 charge stops for safety margin and 15min at each. The catch - he covers an extra 100km to follow the chargers.

Then tells me he’s so happy with the savings on fuel - and mocks my diesel consumption, all whilst paying off a Tesla and $25k of solar/battery system.

On the other hand - I generate solar and get $0.52c/kwh and get cash back every quarter. My cash back is about his solar payments. By the time he’s paid it off, he will need a new battery!

Electric grid on Nuke and ultra fast charge cells (no REEs) will be a game changer - until then EV owners are just ****ing the planet remotely and not locally.


I cannot stand Mockers/Smart arses, can you not spike a tyre or two, or even put a heavy bridging piece? between + & Neutral?[bigrolf] As my underwater friend would say when ducking for cover, "Just Joking":Rolling::Thump:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Until they take a few kwh and next day you cannot drive where you planned.

This entire concept of V2G is ludicrous. With Nuke base load it would be conceivable, with renewables (which they really aren’t as the minerals mined aren’t growing back any time soon) in their current form just can not keep us powered.

New gen chargers are incredibly high current, the grid will not cope if the uptake is forced. Its billions to get the grid up to speed, and then there now constant source. Slices of silica won’t be enough.

Comparing pool ownership to vehicle ownership is straw man at best, almost everyone has a car, only a small percentage have a pool. Nobody is mandating a pool! And a pool only pulls ~10a or less when the pumps on.

Local EV evangelist with a model 3 made me laugh.
He just got it, and so happy is he, he went and fitted $25k of solar and battery to charge it.

Quotes $38.00 for a return trip to Adelaide which has 2 charge stops for safety margin and 15min at each. The catch - he covers an extra 100km to follow the chargers.

Then tells me he’s so happy with the savings on fuel - and mocks my diesel consumption, all whilst paying off a Tesla and $25k of solar/battery system.

On the other hand - I generate solar and get $0.52c/kwh and get cash back every quarter. My cash back is about his solar payments. By the time he’s paid it off, he will need a new battery!

Electric grid on Nuke and ultra fast charge cells (no REEs) will be a game changer - until then EV owners are just ****ing the planet remotely and not locally.
V2G is not ludicrous! It's benefit is for covering small peaks. There is plenty of time to make them up over night.

My solar is like 6 years old. I didn't get the rort rate which finished 2011.

As to charge rates.. my car is charging as we speak at 5a while I wait for the sun to really go. Rarely do I ever charge anyhwhere near the max.

And pools.. there are 7 in my street alone and only one EV. There are currently 3.1 million backyard pools in Aus and 100k electric cars. It's going to be years until EV's outnumber pools. All the houses in my street have AC. Yet no one is worried that AC or pools will kill the grid.

[scarry]

Yet no one is worried that AC or pools will kill the grid.

Where you are, the AC units generally only run for a few months,if that ,of the year.Some may run them all year round,but when it is not extremely hot or cold,they cycle and don't use much power at all.

And as you know the main reasons for blackouts in QLD, during periods of hot weather are the number of AC units that are being used.

As said,pool pumps consume bugga all power,and don't run continually.

Charging an EV once or twice a week,or every day if it used for work,and clocks up quite a few K's,is going to use a heap more power than any pool pump and AC.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Where you are, the AC units generally only run for a few months,if that ,of the year.Some may run them all year round,but when it is not extremely hot or cold,they cycle and don't use much power at all.

And as you know the main reasons for blackouts in QLD, during periods of hot weather are the number of AC units that are being used.

As said,pool pumps consume bugga all power,and don't run continually.

Charging an EV once or twice a week,or every day if it used for work,and clocks up quite a few K's,is going to use a heap more power than any pool pump and AC.
So, if as you say the grid is groaning in hot periods ... when everyone is running their AC.. yet they don't use too much power?

So how is it ok for a pool to use 3000 kwh a year, and not an EV? I'm really confused why you'd say that. It doesn't make any sense at all. I'm telling you - we do about 15k a year which is bang on the national average and we'll use about 3000 kwh this year. Some people might do more. Some people might do less.

The average swimming pool will cost between $660 and $1,000 to run annually – consuming between 2,000 and 3,000 kilowatt hours of electricity. That’s about $23 each week! This cost takes into account the ongoing cost of your pool pump, but does not include heating – that’s going to be extra!

How Much Energy Does A Swimming Pool Use? - Canstar Blue (https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/how-much-energy-does-a-swimming-pool-use/)

[scarry]

So, if as you say the grid is groaning in hot periods ... when everyone is running their AC.. yet they don't use too much power?

So how is it ok for a pool to use 3000 kwh a year, and not an EV? I'm really confused why you'd say that. It doesn't make any sense at all. I'm telling you - we do about 15k a year which is bang on the national average and we'll use about 3000 kwh this year. Some people might do more. Some people might do less.

The average swimming pool will cost between $660 and $1,000 to run annually – consuming between 2,000 and 3,000 kilowatt hours of electricity. That’s about $23 each week! This cost takes into account the ongoing cost of your pool pump, but does not include heating – that’s going to be extra!

[URL="https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/how-much-energy-does-a-swimming-pool-use/"]How Much Energy Does A Swimming Pool Use? - Canstar Blu/URL]

Average figures are just a guess,often way,way off the mark.Variations in the energy different domestic pool set ups would use would be huge.

Anyway,looks like you will have to stay confused[bigrolf]

[Tombie]

You’re using averages again - the peaks will come when there are EVs - that are used DAILY, then come home and plug in for the night (so little to no solar assist).

This applies to MOST of Australia, not the few northern parts where sunlight is plentiful after the normal day is done.

ACs and Pools when they cut in are lazy, just a few amps of demand. EVs with decent chargers are pulling 20-50amp. Some are proposing going 175a charging - that’s 17 pool pumps all running at once.

Even a low spec EV charging at 25a is ~3 pools at once.
That means only another 900k of EVs and we’re drawing the same current as ALL pools running at once! Imagine that on Wednesday night, over 30° outside, everyone’s AC on… can you say Brown/Black Out!

There’s a reason grid base load is high when everyone gets home now, imagine it when everyone comes home, throws on the AC, kicks the pool on so they can have a swim and then plugs in the good old EV ready for the morning!

As for getting the high FIT, I paid for that privilege- arrays were $15k back then. Fortunately its ROI was 3 years.

Once the pressure is on to radically upgrade the grid, and the price is disclosed, watch the prices climb - power distribution isn’t cheap, and we will all pay for it in spades. Those who can least afford it (and likely won’t own a car under 15 years old) will get ****ed over twice - their home energy bills will skyrocket (already are) and their fuel bills will likely follow (less demand, less volume, higher prices).

It’s easy to sit back and say it’s progress, if you’re in a position like me and my wife, however for those on lower incomes, this is going to push them over the edge financially. On costs will show up in support services, petty crime increases, reduced standard of living for many and other side effects.

Like renewables, once the true cost is realised and subsidies are revoked, only then will the true position be fully understood.

In the meantime, the early adopters can enjoy the benefits.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You’re using averages again - the peaks will come when there are EVs - that are used DAILY, then come home and plug in for the night (so little to no solar assist).

This applies to MOST of Australia, not the few northern parts where sunlight is plentiful after the normal day is done.

ACs and Pools when they cut in are lazy, just a few amps of demand. EVs with decent chargers are pulling 20-50amp. Some are proposing going 175a charging - that’s 17 pool pumps all running at once.

Even a low spec EV charging at 25a is ~3 pools at once.
That means only another 900k of EVs and we’re drawing the same current as ALL pools running at once! Imagine that on Wednesday night, over 30° outside, everyone’s AC on… can you say Brown/Black Out!

There’s a reason grid base load is high when everyone gets home now, imagine it when everyone comes home, throws on the AC, kicks the pool on so they can have a swim and then plugs in the good old EV ready for the morning!

As for getting the high FIT, I paid for that privilege- arrays were $15k back then. Fortunately its ROI was 3 years.

Once the pressure is on to radically upgrade the grid, and the price is disclosed, watch the prices climb - power distribution isn’t cheap, and we will all pay for it in spades. Those who can least afford it (and likely won’t own a car under 15 years old) will get ****ed over twice - their home energy bills will skyrocket (already are) and their fuel bills will likely follow (less demand, less volume, higher prices).

It’s easy to sit back and say it’s progress, if you’re in a position like me and my wife, however for those on lower incomes, this is going to push them over the edge financially. On costs will show up in support services, petty crime increases, reduced standard of living for many and other side effects.

Like renewables, once the true cost is realised and subsidies are revoked, only then will the true position be fully understood.

In the meantime, the early adopters can enjoy the benefits.
The max amperage on single phase is 32a. In QLD they are trying to limit this to 20a. People with three phase chargers at home would be quite rare. Most cars limit AC charging anyway. The teslas are 11kwh max.

15000k a year = 42k a day. We have averaged about 8kwh a day, which includes charging losses. if you have a 10 amp pool pump on 230v that's 2.3kwh a hour. Lets say I charge like that.. I can have a topped up car in 3:50 minutes a day. If I set it to 5A which is the minimum I can do, I'd have it topped up in 8h. The car has good functionality to set charging schedules so can easily be done in the wee hours.

The only time we don't have enough power is at evening peak. So a car charged over night is of no concern. If they wan't to stop EV's charging at peak, they will mandate it or offer sweat deals to encourage off peak usage.

Yes I'm using average. Yes some people will drive more. But some people will drive less.

No matter which way you cut it our EV power use is at worst a pool. Our AC is 20a and we can run that all day if it's hot. If you're really worried about forced grid upgrades maybe you should be campaigning against AC and pool usage. Perhaps more efficient building design?

EDIT: If the EV transition is done well there is a chance it could make power cheaper (Well the power companies will probably just pocket higher profits). We just have to actually have a think about it. It's about managing load so that you get the maximum use out of infrastructure. Unfortunately no one wants to think about this at this juncture due to not many EV's.

[Homestar]

The max current on single phase is limited by the supply to the house not any regs.

I have a 50amp single phase supply feeding my phase changer to run a 12HP lathe. My house supply is 50amp so this is what limits the circuit I can put in.

I just don’t use the kettle when I start the lathe… [emoji16]

[Tins]

There are already homeless camps on the Brisbane River. And don't go thinking the people there are no hopers. Lots have jobs, but they are unable to cope with the idiotic inflationary policies already. So it's a case of "I'm alright, Jack"? People who have done it hard ( for this country ) get to pay for YOUR choices. I should know. I lived on a carer's pension for five years, and then came out at the end of two people's lives to a world where jobs were non existent due to covid, and now I'm 70, and so I cannot afford a Tesla, or even solar on my roof. But I pay for yours. And for what?
Virtue signalling only gets you so far.

[Tombie]

Peak load is fine, beyond that - those hours the sun isn’t up - when the coal is gone, when the NG is gone and there isn’t a Nuke generator in sight - what will the majority be using for power?

And local transformers - they’re starting to hit their limits. Have been for a while now - they aren’t cheap, and will need replacement before they’re overloaded.

Been through this on a smaller scale at work recently - transformer and circuits at maximum - to install a split system required the old shower blocks heater to be disconnected permanently.

Also had to coordinate with SAPN for the new Eyre HV upgrade through site. The cost is obscene [emoji12] the work’s totally necessary though as current link is at maximum.

It’s going to be one VERY expensive future, and the environment won’t be any better off for it, and that’s truly saddening.

[NavyDiver]

Peak load is fine, beyond that - those hours the sun isn’t up - when the coal is gone, when the NG is gone and there isn’t a Nuke generator in sight - what will the majority be using for power?

And local transformers - they’re starting to hit their limits. Have been for a while now - they aren’t cheap, and will need replacement before they’re overloaded.

Been through this on a smaller scale at work recently - transformer and circuits at maximum - to install a split system required the old shower blocks heater to be disconnected permanently.

Also had to coordinate with SAPN for the new Eyre HV upgrade through site. The cost is obscene [emoji12] the work’s totally necessary though as current link is at maximum.

It’s going to be one VERY expensive future, and the environment won’t be any better off for it, and that’s truly saddening.
Tossing using Carbon into the mix perhaps? This might offend some sorry!
Using tech for human like breast milk in the very cool Wendy Zukerman "Science V" tonight had yeast in the picture. I am very pleased to be optimistic on how we can fix IF science is helped not hindered by anti-types. I am still kicking myself for not recording an economic term for adding extra lanes to roads which in time slow the traffic flow as traffic increases to overwhelm the capacity! Overloaded is a given! Why I love u308 in my retirement plans. Energy density is clearly shown on the periodic scale Ok Osmium is not the one I mean[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1U7QR6AalBM

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There are already homeless camps on the Brisbane River. And don't go thinking the people there are no hopers. Lots have jobs, but they are unable to cope with the idiotic inflationary policies already. So it's a case of "I'm alright, Jack"? People who have done it hard ( for this country ) get to pay for YOUR choices. I should know. I lived on a carer's pension for five years, and then came out at the end of two people's lives to a world where jobs were non existent due to covid, and now I'm 70, and so I cannot afford a Tesla, or even solar on my roof. But I pay for yours. And for what?
Virtue signalling only gets you so far.

I'm sorry things aren't going well for you and the country but I'm unsure what this has got to do with electric vehicles?

Here is a list of some of the things the government is spending our taxes on to sponsor fossil fuels. 57 Billion.

$57.1b: Record Breaking Fossil Fuel Subsidies Following Climate Election - The Australia Institute (https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/57-1b-record-breaking-fossil-fuel-subsides-following-climate-election/)

2.1 Billion to subsidise private business to keep refineries open.

Refineries get $2b handout to stay open (https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/refineries-get-2b-handout-to-stay-open-20210516-p57sf3)

[Homestar]

So.. if what you say is true then what do we do? Like how do we handle this?

As you say our governments chose to sell a lot of this infra off. And now private business only have interests in maximum profits.

Do we just call the whole thing off and ban EV's? In which case the power providers just say "oh well" and keep on doing what they are doing.

I'm of the opinion that there are only two real options. The governments have to force companies to do the provision (not popular). Or present the companies with a problem and force them to fix it by customer demand. Electricity providers have an opportunity to sell more power. This seems to be the way it's going.

So what would you have us do?

So which part of my post do you think I'm lying about? As to what we do - I'm all ears as no one is even trying to handle this once the numbers are bantered about. Why do you think it's either an all or nothing proposition? This is part of what makes me scratch my heads about the whole EV thing - most EV owners seem to think it's either an EV or nothing and those that don't want one or can't make them work are the spawn of Satan for some reason. We don't need to call EV's off - they'll find an equilibrium in the system between who wants them and where they can operate effectively due to infrastructure limitations - which will of course change from year to year, but don't expect there to be many choices for supercharging outside the main transport corridors. There will be odds and sods here any there but in so many places there just isn't the power available to install them.

The math shows the whole saga has decades yet to play out even if your the most committed EV believer, so who knows what the final mix will be between ICE, EV's, Hydrogen and whatever else throws it's hat into the ring in the meantime.

As to forcing the companies into these things - who's paying? All well and good you have the money to buy an EV and pay your electricity bill and not think about or have any financial issues, but what about the millions who can't? Just say '**** them - it's for their own good' and let power prices go up an order of magnitude because you and your rich mates want to drive anywhere in the country and have a supercharger available? - I've got news for you...

I know you don't believe me but when you've sat in a room full of Network Engineers trying to thrash this out and put numbers around it - let me know, because I have.

[Homestar]

No matter which way you cut it our EV power use is at worst a pool. Our AC is 20a and we can run that all day if it's hot. If you're really worried about forced grid upgrades maybe you should be campaigning against AC and pool usage. Perhaps more efficient building design?


Well something we can agree on - there are far better ways of reducing our carbon footprint other than jumping in an EV. Building regs in Australia are horrible and the energy ''efficiency'' - I use the term loosely - are about the worst of any developed nation. Fixing this issue with new housing would help more than everyone jumping in EV's that's for sure - but again - this will come at a cost the Government would be unwilling to risk unpopularity for.

I put $3K of insulation in my roof 2 years ago and have cut down heating and cooling bills by over 60% - probably more as we've used the AC around 3 times in total for only a few hours each evening since doing so. Heater also hardly got used this Winter. By far a better investment than spending the same money on AC in the first place.

[Homestar]

I'm sorry things aren't going well for you and the country but I'm unsure what this has got to do with electric vehicles?



Um - you posted earlier that the government should force the Networks to upgrade their assets so EV's can be charged quickly anywhere. It's the non EV drivers that will pay for this - Tins has a valid point IMO.

[Tins]

I'm unsure what this has got to do with electric vehicles?

If you read the post and Tombie's post before it that should be bloody obvious. I'm paying for YOUR choices. People will have to pay so you can supercharge your EV on the Nullabor. Nobody subsidises BP to run a fuel station out there. They built them because the market demanded them. And once built, they don't need subsidies to run them. They only need the roads to enable supply, not bloody great HT towers. Oh, that's right, your EV doesn't pay for the roads either; but my Disco does. You want everything but expect to pay for nothing.


Here is a list of some of the things the government is spending our taxes on to sponsor fossil fuels. 57 Billion.

$57.1b: Record Breaking Fossil Fuel Subsidies Following Climate Election - The Australia Institute (https://australiainstitute.org.au/post/57-1b-record-breaking-fossil-fuel-subsides-following-climate-election/)

2.1 Billion to subsidise private business to keep refineries open.

Refineries get $2b handout to stay open (https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/refineries-get-2b-handout-to-stay-open-20210516-p57sf3)

None of that would be necessary at all if the Western Governments just left the market alone. Fossil fuels have never needed subsidies until James Hansen, Michael Mann and Al Gore became rich.

There is no business case for EVs or "renewables" without subsidy.

[NavyDiver]

Edit the whole saga of a room full of Network Engineers trying to thrash this out and put numbers around it

188103
Suspect you're the 99% [thumbsupbig]

Once EVs get the range via any of the options you mention it's a different story. Price and Cost are the key economic drivers.

One of the key drivers of cost is scale. The history and the evolution of Ford and most things lead to its success or failure.

The plans "French start-up emerges from stealth mode with plan to build huge battery gigafactory by 2023Verkor aims to build 16GWh facility in France to reduce Europe's dependence on imported lithium-ion batteries" They missed (https://verkor.com/en/ambition/#verkor2)?


The battery startup Britishvolt. With the looming UK ban on sales of internal combustion engine cars after 2035, Huge demand for batteries was guaranteed. The problem was actually building the batteries (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/29/britishvolt-38bn-battery-factory-green-industry). It swings over to Australia??? "Recharge Industries, which is owned by New York fund Scale Facilitation Partners, has entered an agreement to buy Britishvolt's business and assets.
[B]Britishvolt was put into administration after running out of money." HUGE Miss hand balled to us?

Is the Recharge Industries on track? Our Business | Recharge Industries (https://www.rechargeindustries.com/business)
Cannot call Recharge a Hit or Miss yet! Very nice pictures of hopes (https://www.rechargeindustries.com/economic) or is it dreams?

Meanwhile Korea, China, Japan and US are steaming ahead at scale Add Germany via "Giga Berlin or [B]Gigafactory 4)"
the "Giga Fest" celebration of completion was held in October 2021-On 22 March 2022, the factory was officially opened.

I did have a list of giga factories five years ago. Lots of very hot air and bucket loads of cash or cash burn. It was a long list. Only some delivered of course.


PS USER pays is fine with me.

[NavyDiver]

If you read the post and Tombie's post before it that should be bloody obvious. I'm paying for YOUR choices. People will have to pay so you can supercharge your EV on the Nullabor. Nobody subsidises BP to run a fuel station out there. They built them because the market demanded them. And once built, they don't need subsidies to run them. They only need the roads to enable supply, not bloody great HT towers. Oh, that's right, your EV doesn't pay for the roads either; but my Disco does. You want everything but expect to pay for nothing.



None of that would be necessary at all if the Western Governments just left the market alone. Fossil fuels have never needed subsidies until James Hansen, Michael Mann and Al Gore became rich.

There is no business case for EVs or "renewables" without subsidy.

We all get to pay for roads you (we) drive on John. re "business case for EVs or "renewables" Solar at work had no subsidies and paid for itself very quickly. The cost saving just not servicing my Disco over the 55,000 km of my cheap and quirky prior ev is in my view a clear economic win for me[thumbsupbig]

My hunting mates pay packet is sort of subsidized via FBT exemption on Salary Sacrifice (S.S) of his new EV. He did comment I should have told him about S.S. a long time ago.

S.S is not just for EVs and has been a long-used tax planning tool!

"Fossil fuel subsidies have been described as "any government action that lowers the cost of fossil fuel energy production, raises the price received by energy producers, or lowers the price paid by energy consumers." "fossil fuel industry benefits from subsidies of $11m every minute, according to analysis by the International Monetary Fund."

Not knowing how much things cost may have us playing in glass houses tossing stones? Government subsidies can be a good thing "if" directed to create or maintain wealth. Government subsidies for White elephants are not good things [biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

Well something we can agree on - there are far better ways of reducing our carbon footprint other than jumping in an EV. Building regs in Australia are horrible and the energy ''efficiency'' - I use the term loosely - are about the worst of any developed nation. Fixing this issue with new housing would help more than everyone jumping in EV's that's for sure - but again - this will come at a cost the Government would be unwilling to risk unpopularity for.

I put $3K of insulation in my roof 2 years ago and have cut down heating and cooling bills by over 60% - probably more as we've used the AC around 3 times in total for only a few hours each evening since doing so. Heater also hardly got used this Winter. By far a better investment than spending the same money on AC in the first place.

Definitely agree with this. And with Victoria phasing out gas and forcing new housing to use reverse cycle air conditioning to keep the house warm in winter, electric cooktops, and electric water heaters, this must put more load on the grid per household than an EV will add.

We did take up the VIC government’s energy efficiency upgrade program to replace the 50 halogen lights throughout the house with LED. This reduced our daily energy usage by around 5kwhr, enough power to run a typical EV around 12,000km a year.

It is possible to transition to EV’s without putting more load on the grid when coupled with other energy savings at home, and if charged daily most charging could be done off peak.

[Homestar]

Definitely agree with this. And with Victoria phasing out gas and forcing new housing to use reverse cycle air conditioning to keep the house warm in winter, electric cooktops, and electric water heaters, this must put more load on the grid per household than an EV will add.

We did take up the VIC government’s energy efficiency upgrade program to replace the 50 halogen lights throughout the house with LED. This reduced our daily energy usage by around 5kwhr, enough power to run a typical EV around 12,000km a year.

It is possible to transition to EV’s without putting more load on the grid when coupled with other energy savings at home, and if charged daily most charging could be done off peak.

It's not the average daily loads for EV owners that will present a hurdle - there is capacity for home charging in the evenings already if you look at the likely uptake of EV's in regional and rural Victoria - (Bugger all) - off peak electric hot water loads have been reducing steadily over the years - and is about half what it used to be so there's no reason off peak charging even in regional locations can't be a thing. The biggest issue will be sticking in superchargers everywhere to allow EV's to more rapidly travel to these places and back. Even in Victoria which is a tiny state compared to most others would mean at least one charge to get to and from a lot of places and having a spare 300 plus KW in some of these towns (let alone multiples) isn't something the grid was ever designed for.

If we assume a user pays model then we're back to looking at taxing EV's to pay for this - which is something I don't agree with and I don't even drive one.

Not saying I have the answers, I'm just in a position where I see the issues in more detail than most.

[Homestar]

188103
Suspect you're the 99% [thumbsupbig]



You give me too much credit - I'm the kid in the back picking his nose adding nothing but listening and taking in everything.

188104

[Tombie]

Definitely agree with this. And with Victoria phasing out gas and forcing new housing to use reverse cycle air conditioning to keep the house warm in winter, electric cooktops, and electric water heaters, this must put more load on the grid per household than an EV will add.

We did take up the VIC government’s energy efficiency upgrade program to replace the 50 halogen lights throughout the house with LED. This reduced our daily energy usage by around 5kwhr, enough power to run a typical EV around 12,000km a year.

It is possible to transition to EV’s without putting more load on the grid when coupled with other energy savings at home, and if charged daily most charging could be done off peak.

Many did, and I too went LED in much of my property.

Sadly, medical research suggests the low CRI and tendency towards a bluer light are now having health impacts on people (and animals where it’s used for street lighting).

Seems humans are destined to **** themselves up in a never ending cycle [emoji41]

[DiscoDB]

It's not the average daily loads for EV owners that will present a hurdle - there is capacity for home charging in the evenings already if you look at the likely uptake of EV's in regional and rural Victoria - (Bugger all) - off peak electric hot water loads have been reducing steadily over the years - and is about half what it used to be so there's no reason off peak charging even in regional locations can't be a thing. The biggest issue will be sticking in superchargers everywhere to allow EV's to more rapidly travel to these places and back. Even in Victoria which is a tiny state compared to most others would mean at least one charge to get to and from a lot of places and having a spare 300 plus KW in some of these towns (let alone multiples) isn't something the grid was ever designed for.

If we assume a user pays model then we're back to looking at taxing EV's to pay for this - which is something I don't agree with and I don't even drive one.

Not saying I have the answers, I'm just in a position where I see the issues in more detail than most.

I think the solution is we need 80-90% of EV charging to be done at home and off peak. For most metropolitan car usage this is very doable.

Rapid public charging should be limited to those that need it and priced accordingly. I am sure the state or federal government could add a rapid charging premium rate on all public chargers to collect money for grid upgrades (like collecting fuel excise “allegedly” for road upgrades). Home charging up to 7kW should be exempt from this.

Regional transport needs to stay on fossil fuel, and I expect will be for at least another 20-30+ years. It is the metropolitan use of cars where the biggest positive impact can be made.

And V2G/V2H can make a big difference. In my neighbourhood, over 50% of the cars are parked up at home every day and probably get used less than 30-60mins per day just for short local trips. If the second car was an EV this is a huge potential battery bank that could be used to store solar generated power during the day (including power from the grid) and to then tap into for peak power in the evening.

Why have a fixed house storage battery of 5-15kWh connected to solar when you can have a mobile battery of 30-60kWh which can also power your home for days. No more power blackouts at home.

The opportunities that the electric future will create is exciting and we can get 80-90% of the benefits without getting rid of fossil fuel. We can continue to see total energy usage across Australia continue to come down from its peaks whilst renewable energy generation grows (which is what the ultimate aim is all about - getting us off fossil fuels to give the future generations a fighting chance of survival) and we can do all of this whilst still enjoying the weekend.

And the first step is to not ban ICE’s but to encourage a move to hybrids with at least a 15kWh battery that has V2G/V2H capability. You can have your new ICE (as a PHEV) but the battery needs to be on a smart charger that can export power if needed.

[DiscoDB]

Many did, and I too went LED in much of my property.

Sadly, medical research suggests the low CRI and tendency towards a bluer light are now having health impacts on people (and animals where it’s used for street lighting).

Seems humans are destined to **** themselves up in a never ending cycle [emoji41]

Some halogen lights are probably not much better, but we kept the dimmable halogen lights in the TV room. They are in the warm light range and seems to help make the transition to sleep better.

Amazing how we live longer but have more health impacts.

[scarry]

Seems humans are destined to **** themselves up in a never ending cycle [emoji41]

I thought we were the smartest on the planet?[bawl]

[DiscoDB]

I thought we were the smartest on the planet?[bawl]

I thought that was the dolphins.

So long and thanks for all the fish - Hitchhiker's Guide (HD) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/N_dUmDBfp6k?feature=shared)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Um - you posted earlier that the government should force the Networks to upgrade their assets so EV's can be charged quickly anywhere. It's the non EV drivers that will pay for this - Tins has a valid point IMO.
I think that was one of the options. I said I thought it wouldn't be necessary and it would work out. You know that power companies don't give power to EV owners right? They get to sell more power

Another example.. Telstra used to be owned by the Government. It did what we wanted it to do. We just told it. And then we sold it.. and we couldn't get it to build a broadband network because they are a private company and why would they?

So we had to build Telstra2 as I call it.. or the NBN. It will likely be the same with power networks. In QLD however the state owns the network still so they can be asked to do what is required. I'm not sure of the ownership status in other states.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So which part of my post do you think I'm lying about? As to what we do - I'm all ears as no one is even trying to handle this once the numbers are bantered about. Why do you think it's either an all or nothing proposition? This is part of what makes me scratch my heads about the whole EV thing - most EV owners seem to think it's either an EV or nothing and those that don't want one or can't make them work are the spawn of Satan for some reason. We don't need to call EV's off - they'll find an equilibrium in the system between who wants them and where they can operate effectively due to infrastructure limitations - which will of course change from year to year, but don't expect there to be many choices for supercharging outside the main transport corridors. There will be odds and sods here any there but in so many places there just isn't the power available to install them.

The math shows the whole saga has decades yet to play out even if your the most committed EV believer, so who knows what the final mix will be between ICE, EV's, Hydrogen and whatever else throws it's hat into the ring in the meantime.

As to forcing the companies into these things - who's paying? All well and good you have the money to buy an EV and pay your electricity bill and not think about or have any financial issues, but what about the millions who can't? Just say '**** them - it's for their own good' and let power prices go up an order of magnitude because you and your rich mates want to drive anywhere in the country and have a supercharger available? - I've got news for you...

I know you don't believe me but when you've sat in a room full of Network Engineers trying to thrash this out and put numbers around it - let me know, because I have.
See .. I literally don't know why everyone in here is panicking. We've got just over 100k EV's on the road. And 3 million pools in Australia as I mentioned earlier.. which we seem to be able to power no problems.

It's going to be years until there are as many EV's as pools. We sell 1 million cars in Aus each year. Even if we went to 50% EV tomorrow it's not going to happen for 6 years. And clearly 50% ev's is some time off. If I was going to take a punt I'd be suggesting 10.

Which is why I believe that the power networks for these cars will work itself out. IMHO there will be charging controls to either stop or discourage people from charging during peak, and we will likely incentivise people to charge at favourable times. Strangely.. just like we do now with pools. It's going to be ok.

After owning a EV for 6 months now.. it's really no big deal. It's just a car with a battery. As to affordability.. I'm unconcerned about that.. it's already working out. We just need more choice. I have no delusions. Petrol/diesel is going to be around for a long time.

I can't see any way that governments are going to take ICE cars off owners. They may try and discourage them though, long term.

[4bee]

You give me too much credit - I'm the kid in the back picking his nose adding nothing but listening and taking in everything.

188104 Are you also one of those bloody kids that once the nose is picked they then wipe snot balls down the wall or on your short Melange pants?[bighmmm][bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

4000km clocked up now. (MG4 ev) I had thought 400ish would be the highway speed range. It is over 300 but not stretching to 400 at 110 or highway speeds. Melb - Ballarat return yesterday was about 280km. I had 25% left in the tank when I got back "Range of up to 435km (WLTP)‡" is possible at low speeds! AC was on.

Clearly not as advertised or my interpretation of "Range of up to 435km". The "‡" means come in spinner.[biggrin]

Two years till 'E' day in my thoughts. 'E' day for me will be:

Sub 10 minute charge possible
Tow capacity to 3.5 tonnes
'Real' range of 800 or so.
Reliable
Repairable
The same very LOW Maintenace requirements of my current EV


Ok I want a lot[biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

4000km clocked up now. (MG4 ev) I had thought 400ish would be the highway speed range. It is over 300 but not stretching to 400 at 110 or highway speeds. Melb - Ballarat return yesterday was about 280km. I had 25% left in the tank when I got back "Range of up to 435km (WLTP)‡" is possible at low speeds! AC was on.

Clearly not as advertised or my interpretation of "Range of up to 435km". The "‡" means come in spinner.[biggrin]


If you want the WLTP range you just have to set the cruise control to follow this speed profile:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231212/16a38e89cee0c77947c121efd9eb88c3.jpg

[emoji41]

[NavyDiver]

If you want the WLTP range you just have to set the cruise control to follow this speed profile:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231212/16a38e89cee0c77947c121efd9eb88c3.jpg

[emoji41]
Now I get it thanks. Silly me travels at the speed limit. :)

[DiscoDB]

Now I get it thanks. Silly me travels at the speed limit. :)

WLTP is truly meaningless to be used to determine “range”. “Range” implies long distance driving and the WLTP doesn’t test for this.

For EV’s they really should also have a published range for cruising at 110kph.

So how many kWh do you use per 100km when doing 110kph?

Sounds like you are using around 17kWh/100km giving a range of up to 375km for country driving.

[DiscoDB]

And you can forget about claiming MG published misleading range information. The High Court today ruled in favour of Mitsubishi in their appeal over the case that fuel consumption labels are misleading and deceptive.

This was the case where a Triton owner took Mitsubishi to court because his vehicle was using up to 36.8% more fuel than the official fuel consumption label. He won in VCAT, and then in the Victorian Supreme Court, but lost when Mitsubishi appealed to the High Court.

Basically gives car companies and dealers the right to continue to publish misleading and deceptive consumption figures.

[NavyDiver]

And you can forget about claiming MG published misleading range information. The High Court today ruled in favour of Mitsubishi in their appeal over the case that fuel consumption labels are misleading and deceptive.

This was the case where a Triton owner took Mitsubishi to court because his vehicle was using up to 38% more fuel than the official fuel consumption label. He won in VCAT, and then in the Victorian Supreme Court, but lost when Mitsubishi appealed to the High Court.

Basically gives car companies and dealers the right to continue to publish misleading and deceptive consumption figures.

Not stopping peoples from knowing who tells porkies and who is honest happily.

A EV diving record attempt was NOT by me Upcoming[B] Lancia Ypsilon has made a splash, quite literally, as the electric hatchback was revealed undisguised… having plunged into a French river.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBK9nXQXgAES5gN?format=jpg&name=small


https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/oops-lancia-s-new-electric-car-makes-a-splashy-debut/ar-AA1lprjF?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=a980bcefa5ef429ba2221a1dda0741d5&ei=9

[DiscoDB]

The things they do for publicity.

And it didn’t self combust in the process…..[emoji849]

[DiscoDB]

Not stopping peoples from knowing who tells porkies and who is honest happily.


Looking forward to seeing the full results from the real world fuel consumption and emissions testing program.

Real-World Testing delivering for motorists - Australian Automobile Association (https://www.aaa.asn.au/newsroom/real-world-testing-delivering-for-motorists/)

This is the worst offender so far (but they haven’t tested the Mitsubishi Triton yet):

2022 Toyota RAV4 | Real-World Testing Program (https://realworld.org.au/vehicles/2022-toyota-rav4/)

The mistake the Triton owner made was going after a car company, and not the government for mandating unrealistic fuel consumption testing.

[vnx205]

Only 13% more than the lab test. That is much better than I would have expected.

If that is the worst, then I don't know what we are worried about.

[DiscoDB]

Certainly nothing to worry about. Just proves that the mandated testing is not what you can expect - no surprise there.

On the Urban Real-World cycle the RAV4 used 7.8l/100km against the combined cycle lab value of 6.0. Offical figures can mean very little in the real world if not used the same way as the lab test.

But they have only tested 9 cars so far out of a planned 200. A prior study on 30 cars showed the average difference was 23%. Similar to the complaints we read about EV range when used in the real world.

NavyDivers results with his MG4 shows about a 14% difference - but that is comparing country driving with most of the trip at 110kph against a WLTP test at an average of 46.5kph.

So will be interesting when they get to EVs.

Oh and as we have learnt from NavyDiver, the RAV4’s equivalent kWh/100km energy usage was more like 60kWh/100km of potential energy. What an energy waster! Just flipping the narrative. [emoji48]

[vnx205]

I didn't realise they had tested so few. Surely there will be some with a much greater discrepancy than 14%.

23% is closer to the difference I would have expected.

So by the time they finish testing, 14% may be one of the better results rather than the worst.

[4bee]

4000km clocked up now. (MG4 ev) I had thought 400ish would be the highway speed range. It is over 300 but not stretching to 400 at 110 or highway speeds. Melb - Ballarat return yesterday was about 280km. I had 25% left in the tank when I got back "Range of up to 435km (WLTP)‡" is possible at low speeds! AC was on.

Clearly not as advertised or my interpretation of "Range of up to 435km". The "‡" means come in spinner.[biggrin]

Two years till 'E' day in my thoughts. 'E' day for me will be:

Sub 10 minute charge possible
Tow capacity to 3.5 tonnes
'Real' range of 800 or so.
Reliable
Repairable
The same very LOW Maintenace requirements of my current EV


Ok I want a lot[biggrin]


Indeed you do, but not unrealistic requirements on a Vehicle that cost $20 million or maybe a tad less.[tonguewink]

[DiscoDB]

I didn't realise they had tested so few. Surely there will be some with a much greater discrepancy than 14%.

23% is closer to the difference I would have expected.

So by the time they finish testing, 14% may be one of the better results rather than the worst.

It is a 4 year testing program and they have only just started. Good job if you can get it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

4000km clocked up now. (MG4 ev) I had thought 400ish would be the highway speed range. It is over 300 but not stretching to 400 at 110 or highway speeds. Melb - Ballarat return yesterday was about 280km. I had 25% left in the tank when I got back "Range of up to 435km (WLTP)‡" is possible at low speeds! AC was on.

Clearly not as advertised or my interpretation of "Range of up to 435km". The "‡" means come in spinner.[biggrin]

Two years till 'E' day in my thoughts. 'E' day for me will be:

Sub 10 minute charge possible
Tow capacity to 3.5 tonnes
'Real' range of 800 or so.
Reliable
Repairable
The same very LOW Maintenace requirements of my current EV


Ok I want a lot[biggrin]

My MY has a WLTP of 455. I've done enough highway runs now. 400 with AC on seems the range to empty. Heaps for me.

[Tombie]

And you can forget about claiming MG published misleading range information. The High Court today ruled in favour of Mitsubishi in their appeal over the case that fuel consumption labels are misleading and deceptive.

This was the case where a Triton owner took Mitsubishi to court because his vehicle was using up to 36.8% more fuel than the official fuel consumption label. He won in VCAT, and then in the Victorian Supreme Court, but lost when Mitsubishi appealed to the High Court.

Basically gives car companies and dealers the right to continue to publish misleading and deceptive consumption figures.

I’ve been 1 of 2 drivers (husband and wife) driving the same vehicle, on the same route, same weather conditions.

My wife’s average fuel consumption is usually lower than mine by 1-2l/100km.

The only thing those labels are good for is a comparison. Even then, only when stock standard, no CD altering accessories.

[DiscoDB]

My MY has a WLTP of 455. I've done enough highway runs now. 400 with AC on seems the range to empty. Heaps for me.

Your results are very consistent with the official US EPA range (393km) which is considered the more accurate test cycle for outer suburban and regional driving.

If NavyDiver’s MG4 was tested to the US EPA test cycle the official range would probably be around 375km.

[NavyDiver]

could it be?


"The luxury SUV will use an 800-volt architecture for high-speed charging. It will also be capable of wading through waist-deep water.

The first-ever all-electric Range Rover is in the works, and the British carmaker released the first teaser images of the big zero-emission SUV today. We’re talking about the big Range Rover (https://www.motor1.com/features/625140/2022-best-luxury-vehicle-land-rover-range-rover/) here, not the smaller Range Rover Sport, just to be clear, although the latter will reportedly also get a battery-powered version sometime next year (https://insideevs.com/news/585185/2023-range-rover-sport-phev-ev/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)." "The British marque says its first fully electric model is anticipated to be the quietest and most refined car it ever made, and that it will be capable of wading through up to 33.4 inches (850 millimeters) deep water. That's just as capable as the Land Rover Defender.In other words, the luxurious battery-powered Range Rover should retain its off-road prowess even in all-electric guise, although we’re skeptical that owners actually take their $100,000+ four-wheeled barges on off the beaten track that often.
Besides being capable of wading through waist-deep water, the upcoming Range Rover EV will feature “a unique active road noise cancellation configuration and sound design” which should help reduce unwanted noise that would otherwise be covered by the combustion engine."

No range or towing capacity which without knowing if they are old school battery Lithium Liquid Catalyst or solid state is not long enough or fast enough[thumbsupbig]

They are almost certainly old school as they are a year ahead of my watch list schedule for Solid state. It would be nice to be surprised of course[thumbsupbig]

Link https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/all-electric-range-rover-here-s-our-first-look/ar-AA1lrAMu?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=DCTS&cvid=4a0dd37f6d024044bbd2e9e1899aff5a&ei=10

[Homestar]

could it be?


"The luxury SUV will use an 800-volt architecture for high-speed charging. It will also be capable of wading through waist-deep water.

The first-ever all-electric Range Rover is in the works, and the British carmaker released the first teaser images of the big zero TAILPIPE emission SUV today. We’re talking about the big Range Rover (https://www.motor1.com/features/625140/2022-best-luxury-vehicle-land-rover-range-rover/) here, not the smaller Range Rover Sport, just to be clear, although the latter will reportedly also get a battery-powered version sometime next year (https://insideevs.com/news/585185/2023-range-rover-sport-phev-ev/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)." "The British marque says its first fully electric model is anticipated to be the quietest and most refined car it ever made, and that it will be capable of wading through up to 33.4 inches (850 millimeters) deep water. That's just as capable as the Land Rover Defender.In other words, the luxurious battery-powered Range Rover should retain its off-road prowess even in all-electric guise, although we’re skeptical that owners actually take their $100,000+ four-wheeled barges on off the beaten track that often.
Besides being capable of wading through waist-deep water, the upcoming Range Rover EV will feature “a unique active road noise cancellation configuration and sound design” which should help reduce unwanted noise that would otherwise be covered by the combustion engine."

No range or towing capacity which without knowing if they are old school battery Lithium Liquid Catalyst or solid state is not long enough or fast enough[thumbsupbig]

They are almost certainly old school as they are a year ahead of my watch list schedule for Solid state. It would be nice to be surprised of course[thumbsupbig]

Link https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/all-electric-range-rover-here-s-our-first-look/ar-AA1lrAMu?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=DCTS&cvid=4a0dd37f6d024044bbd2e9e1899aff5a&ei=10

Fixed it for you. :)

[Arapiles]

I’ve been 1 of 2 drivers (husband and wife) driving the same vehicle, on the same route, same weather conditions.

My wife’s average fuel consumption is usually lower than mine by 1-2l/100km.

The only thing those labels are good for is a comparison. Even then, only when stock standard, no CD altering accessories.


My wife's fuel consumption is typically 25% higher than mine ... and that's using a logbook to measure fill to fill with litres used and kms travelled. As you might guess, we have different driving styles ....

[Arapiles]

4000km clocked up now. (MG4 ev) I had thought 400ish would be the highway speed range. It is over 300 but not stretching to 400 at 110 or highway speeds. Melb - Ballarat return yesterday was about 280km. I had 25% left in the tank when I got back "Range of up to 435km (WLTP)‡" is possible at low speeds! AC was on.


Could be worse: the BMW i3 range-extender (PHEV) version had a small ICE to recharge the battery when the battery ran out, but apparently it couldn't supply enough kWh to keep the battery topped up at highway speeds. So, if you were a long way from home and not near a charging point you could drive home slowly ...

[scarry]

My wife's fuel consumption is typically 25% higher than mine ... and that's using alogbook to measure fill to fill with litres used and kms travelled. As you might guess, we have different driving styles ....

Same here,probably around 15%,and I am sure the brake wear is more as well[bighmmm]
In fact I can see exactly how she has been driving it as you can go into a recorded graph on the main infotainment screen of fuel usage averaged at intervals of I think every 2 minutes or so.
Also it is interesting to check the graph after it has been in for a service.

[spudfan]

Some sense at last...
BMW Boss Defends Decision To Stick With Combustion Engines
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/bmw-boss-defends-decision-to-stick-with-combustion-engines/ar-AA1lufNN?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=414170b575f04610a4abe4ae317869db&ei=70

[vnx205]

Some sense at last...
BMW Boss Defends Decision To Stick With Combustion Engines
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/bmw-boss-defends-decision-to-stick-with-combustion-engines/ar-AA1lufNN?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=414170b575f04610a4abe4ae317869db&ei=70

That same article says "That's not to say BMW is favoring combustion engines to the detriment of EVs. For this year, the company has set an objective for zero-emission vehicles to account for 15 percent of total deliveries. By the end of the decade, the Munich-based marque projects one in two cars it will sell isn't going to have an ICE."

So BMW accepts the reality of the situation.

[Arapiles]

Same here,probably around 15%,and I am sure the brake wear is more as well[bighmmm].

Yep, and front tyres go regularly.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/WYh-0c1Dofc'si=iiXYr3f59iW1A23v

[scarry]

By the end of the decade, the Munich-based marque projects one in two cars it will sell isn't going to have an ICE.".[/FONT][/COLOR]

The end of the decade is a long way away.
Almost every vehicle manufacturer has continually changed their ideas and outlooks in relation to EVs in the last two years.

Although some have stuck with going to just EVs,so it will be interesting to see if they do backflips as well,once their sales volumes drop off.

[NavyDiver]

Not here - not true solid state. still a better effort than most!!

"an average speed of 52.13 miles per hour during the roadtrip that took place in cold weather (28.4°-10.4° F).Nio has demonstrated the real-life range of its new 150-kilowatt-hour Ultra Long Range battery by completing a 648-mile (1,044-kilometer) journey in China on a single battery charge.
A Nio ET7 (https://insideevs.com/nio/et7/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) electric sedan fitted with the semi-solid state battery and driven by Nio CEO and founder William Li and Senior Vice President of Nio Power Dr. Fei Shen covered the distance in 14 hours (12.4 hours excluding breaks) using 97 percent of battery power. The EV's average energy consumption was 212.4 Wh/mile (13.2 kWh/100 kilometers) during the trip, 92% of which was covered in NOP+ (Navigate-on-Pilot) semi-autonomous mode. " Link (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/nio-et7-with-150-kwh-semi-solid-state-battery-drives-648-miles-on-a-single-charge/ar-AA1lKK13?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=e5092f3807464b0dba277da5f610d5d5&ei=11)

My car 1% grump with auto lane keep and autonmus braking is not ev related. I know a person with a very new Merc that she hates for the same reason. Finding a lot of examples. My main issue is IF i turn this off in the settings it has to be done every time I get in my car. It resets to the settings which is a real PITA and possibly take it back issue for me!


https://www.youtube.com/watch'si=OGw5rtuuazMX2Tix&v=jfsrP5HGOlw&feature=yo utu.be

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/maXP086bPn4'si=DRASCks5k2Y1wqDH

[scarry]

Audi puts big EV push on the back burner | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/audi-puts-big-ev-push-on-the-back-burner/?fbclid=IwAR0KgM1ETw6rkRz4xVpsYZlolqaN1FOgOGgTWBDl COztvZNgEImHSig_9fo)

Ford US is doing the same

[Homestar]

https://youtu.be/maXP086bPn4'si=DRASCks5k2Y1wqDH

Looking at this objectively the report that it started at the back of the house and the car wasn't in the garage doesn't look credible but at the same time there's nothing to show that an EV started the fire.

I find this guy is a little too anti EV for me to be honest but I'll give him credit for not stating he thought it was an EV fire but he does insinuate this. Based on the circumstantial evidence it does look to be the case but there's no way of knowing if the car set the garage alight or the other way around.

I can't see a reason other than the EV being to blame for trying to divert attention away from it though - that just brings more attention.

Regardless of this I wouldn't charge an EV in a garage the same as I wouldn't put a home battery setup in my garage. Having said that I don't even charge my power tool batteries unless I'm home and I do that on a steel bench on a concrete floor. I don't even leave anything turned on at the power point switch either apart from the fridge and the Foxtel box.

[Tins]

Audi puts big EV push on the back burner | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/audi-puts-big-ev-push-on-the-back-burner/?fbclid=IwAR0KgM1ETw6rkRz4xVpsYZlolqaN1FOgOGgTWBDl COztvZNgEImHSig_9fo)

Ford US is doing the same

They’ll go broke if they don’t. New car sales are already in freefall in the US as Middle America can’t afford the ordinary ones, let alone the much higher priced EV.

[Tins]

Looking at this objectively the report that it started at the back of the house and the car wasn't in the garage doesn't look credible but at the same time there's nothing to show that an EV started the fire.

I find this guy is a little too anti EV for me to be honest but I'll give him credit for not stating he thought it was an EV fire but he does insinuate this. Based on the circumstantial evidence it does look to be the case but there's no way of knowing if the car set the garage alight or the other way around.

I can't see a reason other than the EV being to blame for trying to divert attention away from it though - that just brings more attention.

Regardless of this I wouldn't charge an EV in a garage the same as I wouldn't put a home battery setup in my garage. Having said that I don't even charge my power tool batteries unless I'm home and I do that on a steel bench on a concrete floor. I don't even leave anything turned on at the power point switch either apart from the fridge and the Foxtel box.

Yes, he’s far more anti than, say, me. But he’s on a plane with me about net zero.

you’re dead right about how the silly attempts at deflection only serve to make people suspicious. That stuff used to work when we only had the MSM for information. Seems like some people still do.
I don’t pretend to have anything like your knowledge of electrical systems. I was interested in your approach to charging tools. I might just adopt it myself.

[PhilipA]

I guess it's like Janus saying that a single battery caused the fire in the Cement truck.
Well, yes but. The truck was totally destroyed by the resulting runaway.
Regards PhilipA

[RANDLOVER]

If you read the post and Tombie's post before it that should be bloody obvious. I'm paying for YOUR choices. People will have to pay so you can supercharge your EV on the Nullabor. Nobody subsidises BP to run a fuel station out there. They built them because the market demanded them. And once built, they don't need subsidies to run them. They only need the roads to enable supply, not bloody great HT towers. Oh, that's right, your EV doesn't pay for the roads either; but my Disco does. You want everything but expect to pay for nothing.



None of that would be necessary at all if the Western Governments just left the market alone. Fossil fuels have never needed subsidies until James Hansen, Michael Mann and Al Gore became rich.

There is no business case for EVs or "renewables" without subsidy.

Nobody gets to choose where their tax dollars go, it is all for the "greater good".

Solar panels are the cheapest way of producing electricity, especially in sunny Australia which is why no one is building coal fired power stations here. They are so cheap that even if one wants to maximize the solar harvested by building tracking panels it is cheaper to just put in more panels, so says Saul Griffith who invented such a tracking system amongst many other patents he holds. You can listen to the free pod cast of his book read for you by legendary Australians here...The Big Switch Audio Edition (rewiringaustralia.org) (https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/thebigswitch/audio)

[RANDLOVER]

Audi puts big EV push on the back burner | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2023/12/19/audi-puts-big-ev-push-on-the-back-burner/?fbclid=IwAR0KgM1ETw6rkRz4xVpsYZlolqaN1FOgOGgTWBDl COztvZNgEImHSig_9fo)

Ford US is doing the same

I see your car maker's going on the back burner and raise you a whole country going on the front foot....Canada says all cars and trucks must be zero-emission by 2035, leaving the auto industry unhappy - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-20/canada-zero-emissions-vehicles-2035-transport-industry-climate/103249176) I think a lot of Ford USA components are made in Canada since the old NAFTA days and the zero-emission push is to give manufacturers certainty in the EV market.

[Tombie]

I see your car maker's going on the back burner and raise you a whole country going on the front foot....Canada says all cars and trucks must be zero-emission by 2035, leaving the auto industry unhappy - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-20/canada-zero-emissions-vehicles-2035-transport-industry-climate/103249176) I think a lot of Ford USA components are made in Canada since the old NAFTA days and the zero-emission push is to give manufacturers certainty in the EV market.

That’s the same country that will gaol you for telling your kid they aren’t transgender under child abuse. The same country that’s so “woke” it’s unbelievable.

I wouldn’t put any stock in their government- they’ve lost the plot on many things and this is just posturing.

[RANDLOVER]

That’s the same country that will gaol you for telling your kid they aren’t transgender under child abuse. The same country that’s so “woke” it’s unbelievable.

I wouldn’t put any stock in their government- they’ve lost the plot on many things and this is just posturing.

You could be right as from the same article I quoted "Canada has missed every emissions-reduction target it has ever set.Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says fighting climate change is one of his Liberal government's top priorities.
The country's environment commissioner last month said the government's emissions-reduction plan was flawed and would not reach the target of cutting greenhouse gas output by 40 to 45 per cent below the 2005 level by 2030."

[Tins]

I see your car maker's going on the back burner and raise you a whole country going on the front foot....Canada says all cars and trucks must be zero-emission by 2035, leaving the auto industry unhappy - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-20/canada-zero-emissions-vehicles-2035-transport-industry-climate/103249176) I think a lot of Ford USA components are made in Canada since the old NAFTA days and the zero-emission push is to give manufacturers certainty in the EV market.
Are you seriously holding Canada up as a shining example of the way forward ?

[Tins]

3212292 (tel:3212292)[/URL]]Nobody gets to choose where their tax dollars go, it is all for the "greater good".
Yes we do. They call them “elections “, and we have them periodically. You may have noticed a few interesting results overseas recently.


Solar panels are the cheapest way of producing electricity, especially in sunny Australia which is why no one is building coal fired power stations here. They are so cheap that even if one wants to maximize the solar harvested by building tracking panels it is cheaper to just put in more panels, so says Saul Griffith who invented such a tracking system amongst many other patents he holds. You can listen to the free pod cast of his book read for you by legendary Australians here...The Big Switch Audio Edition (rewiringaustralia.org) (https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/thebigswitch/audio)
Nobody is building coal powered generators in this country because legislators have made it uneconomic to do so. Legislators can change.

[scarry]

The country's environment commissioner last month said the government's emissions-reduction plan was flawed and would not reach the target of cutting greenhouse gas output by 40 to 45 per cent below the 2005 level by 2030."

I bet this is the same for most Governments and countries around the world,with emission reduction targets.

Noting some are probably experts at fudging figures.

[NavyDiver]

I bet this is the same for most Governments and countries around the world,with emission reduction targets.

Noting some are probably experts at fudging figures.
Great fudging figures- Daihatsu [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] will it survive?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It's hot here in QLD. Like really hot.

Last night the missus walks into the lounge "Why is is dark in here?".

Quick look our voltage monitor and we are down at 190V in the house. No we were not charging our car but we sure were using our AC. And so it would appear was everyone else.

Personally if I was really worried about the grid stability - I'd be more worried about our reliance on AC. Many of our big power users like pools, and car charging can be encouraged to be done off peak. Things like AC and cooking can't really be time shifted. People need to use them when they get home.

Solar keeps us afloat when it's charging but we need to look solidly at encouraging more climate efficient houses, better local electricity grids to cope with when everyone is running it - and grid scale storage to supplement during evening peak.

Perhaps we could even encourage people to use their car batteries to support the local grid instead. :o

[Tombie]

Define grid scale storage, then show me where this should be kept?

That stupid Tesla battery built not far from here can keep a very limited number of properties running for 8 minutes.
When you see the footprint it dominates, now scale up to support more than 100,000 homes for more than 8 minutes - and that’s massive.

And those hot nights, where the AC is on all night - that’s a flat battery on the EV in the morning. Because that base load supply isn’t coming back any time soon under those conditions (at least not until everyone’s solar arrays kick off again in the morning).

[DiscoDB]

Define grid scale storage, then show me where this should be kept?

That stupid Tesla battery built not far from here can keep a very limited number of properties running for 8 minutes.
When you see the footprint it dominates, now scale up to support more than 100,000 homes for more than 8 minutes - and that’s massive.

And those hot nights, where the AC is on all night - that’s a flat battery on the EV in the morning. Because that base load supply isn’t coming back any time soon under those conditions (at least not until everyone’s solar arrays kick off again in the morning).

Ideally that would be provided by 2 million grid connected EVs which could keep 10 million homes powered for 1-4hrs during blackouts.

The SA big battery is only the equivalent to around 5,000 EVs and is really only intended to provide stability to the grid for minutes to give time for additional generators to come on line.

The Portland Aluminium Smelter provides the same benefit by being able to instantly tap down taking base load off the grid which provides the stability during the time it takes generators to spin up.

There is a 320MW gas power plant near where I am which is just for peak power demand but takes 10-15 minutes to come on line.

Grid connected EVs (and house solar storage batteries) certainly can be beneficial to managing peak power demand and bridge this time it takes for gas generators to come on line. And given most EVs spend most of their time parked up at home - why not put this capacity to use.

[Homestar]

Will be interesting to see where Germanys EV sales go now incentives have gone - reuters.com (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/germany-end-e-vehicle-subsidy-programme-2023-12-16/#:~:text=BERLIN%2C%20Dec%2016%20(Reuters),revised% 202024%20budget%20this%20week).

[p38arover]

Great fudging figures- Daihatsu [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] will it survive?

Toyota own Daihatsu so it may.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Define grid scale storage, then show me where this should be kept?

That stupid Tesla battery built not far from here can keep a very limited number of properties running for 8 minutes.
When you see the footprint it dominates, now scale up to support more than 100,000 homes for more than 8 minutes - and that’s massive.

And those hot nights, where the AC is on all night - that’s a flat battery on the EV in the morning. Because that base load supply isn’t coming back any time soon under those conditions (at least not until everyone’s solar arrays kick off again in the morning).

Those "Big Batteries" despite their name are not really "grid scale storage". They are more for covering momentary loses of power to ensure grid stability. Very useful things but not in large numbers.

There are lots of different options. Pumped hydro is currently the front runner but the whole idea of this is there will be many complementary methods of storage. Last I heard was someone had worked out there were roughly 4500 sites around Aus that could be suitable for pumped hydro.

I guess the point is the power companies are showing zero interest in this because it's just not what they do. They just want to sell coal power because it's easy and it's what they have now and someone else paid to build them long time ago. They don't care about the price of electricity as long as they are making money.

As a country though the cost of energy is very important. It's a competitive advantage/disadvantage for us. Renewables and proper storage will reduce the cost and increase our national competitiveness. Hence I think this stuff really needs to be taken out of their hands and done in the national interest. You can't expect privately owned power companies to do this kind of thing as their only priority is making money. Oh well.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Grid connected EVs (and house solar storage batteries) certainly can be beneficial to managing peak power demand and bridge this time it takes for gas generators to come on line. And given most EVs spend most of their time parked up at home - why not put this capacity to use.

Exactly.. it's insanity that we aren't working on this right now. V2G is not about running the whole grid over night it's about short term peak loads.

The insanity is this storage capacity has already been paid for (by someone else). You've just got to come up with a framework to utilise it that gives the owners some compensation as well.

But again - private companies have no interest in this. The will only act in the national interest if they are forced to.

[Tombie]

Those "Big Batteries" despite their name are not really "grid scale storage". They are more for covering momentary loses of power to ensure grid stability. Very useful things but not in large numbers.

There are lots of different options. Pumped hydro is currently the front runner but the whole idea of this is there will be many complementary methods of storage. Last I heard was someone had worked out there were roughly 4500 sites around Aus that could be suitable for pumped hydro.

I guess the point is the power companies are showing zero interest in this because it's just not what they do. They just want to sell coal power because it's easy and it's what they have now and someone else paid to build them long time ago. They don't care about the price of electricity as long as they are making money.

As a country though the cost of energy is very important. It's a competitive advantage/disadvantage for us. Renewables and proper storage will reduce the cost and increase our national competitiveness. Hence I think this stuff really needs to be taken out of their hands and done in the national interest. You can't expect privately owned power companies to do this kind of thing as their only priority is making money. Oh well.

I’m aware of this! I’m pointing out to get to “grid scale” is hundreds/thousands of hectares of land consumed by storage units.

Pumped hydro, well, I was deeply involved in a project (we have a few of those 4,500 suitable sites). Had plenty of meetings of all types with the AER, power networks, the wholesalers. Worked on the modelling for behind/in front of meter options. Worked on route to market upgrades including stakeholder engagement with landowners. Worked with the design team on the storage dams, on the high density concrete structures required, even had a plan to float solar on top of the holding dam to reduce evaporation and add power to the pumping operation.

Project shelved - simply doesn’t stack up. The economics are horrendous, water usage is borderline criminal due to losses. The time for the dam to fill before first use was nearly 10 months!



As for grid stability well isn’t it quite cute currently.

LPMA, Castalloy, LBB, and several others all ramp down during high power demand periods.

It buffers the grid, sure, and the government quietly pays the agreed penalties to each group for the inconvenience.
The compensation hourly is quite extraordinary and has to cover lost productivity, refractory damage, reduced asset life due to increased process variability and cycling.

Another subsidy to the renewable grid that isn’t openly known. [emoji41]

[DiscoDB]

The National Energy Market is certainly a strange one, and one which large power consumers and generators could potentially manipulate to make money - the same way stock markets can be manipulated.

I have no doubt that private investors will be actively looking at how they could use V2G to make money. The spot market for short duration energy can be highly profitable if you have the ability to either load shed quickly or put extra energy back into the grid for short duration blocks of time.

And a big part of it is about preventing coal power plants from tripping as the start up times are significant.

Major electricity traders will jump on it but I personally feel Power Generation and Distribution should have never been privatised, but at the same time I wouldn’t trust short term focused governments getting this right either.

We probably really need long term ethical based investors getting behind this, and some strong governance to protect the end consumers. Certainly a tricky area to get the policy right.

[NavyDiver]

The National Energy Market is certainly a strange one, and one which large power consumers and generators could potentially manipulate to make money - the same way stock markets can be manipulated.

I have no doubt that private investors will be actively looking at how they could use V2G to make money. The spot market for short duration energy can be highly profitable if you have the ability to either load shed quickly or put extra energy back into the grid for short duration blocks of time.

And a big part of it is about preventing coal power plants from tripping as the start up times are significant.

Major electricity traders will jump on it but I personally feel Power Generation and Distribution should have never been privatised, but at the same time I wouldn’t trust short term focused governments getting this right either.

We probably really need long term ethical based investors getting behind this, and some strong governance to protect the end consumers. Certainly a tricky area to get the policy right.

It's tricky as its several distinctly separate parts. The hardest part to understand is more is not the only key. It the correct balance to meet demand as it surges and drops off. IF and I mean IF it was possible to have two to several weeks storage

"Australian Energy Update 2023" might give some guidance.

https://www.energy.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-09/2021-22_aeu_energy_flows.png

Sailing records about "Doldrums" or seasonal changes are interesting to consider for the "Its Easy" types[bigwhistle] The 32% of 'renewable' power in 2021-2022 is fantastic. Issue is its not always available at peak demand and the low hanging fruit is already in place. The cheap and fast wind, solar...... is already in place and the massive constraints of:

Poor state to state interconnections.
10,000km of unfunded HV transmission lines
No possibility of short, medium term Entire grid scale back up


Other countries have woken up that the existing infrastructure can be recycled using nuclear energy.[bigwhistle] A quick google of Melbourne suggested "The city receives only 48.6 clear days annually, making it the cloudiest capital city in Australia, and it has 180 overcast days annually, with 54 more cloudy days than Queenscliff to the south of the city, and 19 more than Mount Buller to the north."

It clear as [biggrin]. My solar is kicking in 1.5kwh at the moment. My EV is taking 7kwh[bighmmm] At the risk of making a political bit trust the new Vic SEC 1 billion of our money promises already shown to be MIA is singing loud and clear on that topic.

Back to EVs. RACV review of a BYD dolphin had range then IF open road less 100km range[bighmmm] MY sub 400km range with more than 6000km traveled in the last few weeks Promises "435km range#####" is a bit like the SEC? I am being nasty to MG. Its much closer than the new Vic SEC[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Other EV news. Ballarat EV charging stations were smashed by 'party' people. Only a few were working yesterday. Noted 2 security cameras covering. Hope the new year is quietly paid for by those people.
50kWh charging places in soooo many country towns now. Maryborough, Avoca, Ararat, Beaufort, Camperdown, Ocean Grove, Queensclife ......They are often in pairs. If two charge the charge rate is usually 1/2 each [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Not a problem really until we get solid state next year. Then fast charging may be 1000kWh per hour or 5 minutes IF infrastructure was nuclear [bigrolf] It's not here of course. We are far too smart?


Hope you all had great NYE.

[DiscoDB]

There is an app for iPhone which allows you to watch the NEM spot market in real time - PocketNEM. It is quite fascinating to watch.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240102/e6637eaa1ad50e4e2fe4df20a4b0c5c8.jpg

At times power generators will actually pay for consumers to take power to avoid shutting down. You can even see notifications for when AEMO intervenes.

So it can even be in the generators interest to have distributed “virtual” storage farms by way of hundreds of thousands of EVs that can be slowly charged when there is excess power and later discharged to meet short term peak power demands.

A study from the UK shows that V2G can help avoid billions in infrastructure upgrades by helping to level out these peaks and troughs.

Case study (UK): Electric vehicle-to-grid (V2G) charging | Ofgem (https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/case-study-uk-electric-vehicle-grid-v2g-charging)

Of course the EV owners should be fairly compensated for this - the same as residential solar should be compensated when feeding the grid.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I’m aware of this! I’m pointing out to get to “grid scale” is hundreds/thousands of hectares of land consumed by storage units.

Pumped hydro, well, I was deeply involved in a project (we have a few of those 4,500 suitable sites). Had plenty of meetings of all types with the AER, power networks, the wholesalers. Worked on the modelling for behind/in front of meter options. Worked on route to market upgrades including stakeholder engagement with landowners. Worked with the design team on the storage dams, on the high density concrete structures required, even had a plan to float solar on top of the holding dam to reduce evaporation and add power to the pumping operation.

Project shelved - simply doesn’t stack up. The economics are horrendous, water usage is borderline criminal due to losses. The time for the dam to fill before first use was nearly 10 months!



As for grid stability well isn’t it quite cute currently.

LPMA, Castalloy, LBB, and several others all ramp down during high power demand periods.

It buffers the grid, sure, and the government quietly pays the agreed penalties to each group for the inconvenience.
The compensation hourly is quite extraordinary and has to cover lost productivity, refractory damage, reduced asset life due to increased process variability and cycling.

Another subsidy to the renewable grid that isn’t openly known. [emoji41]
Hey just for my curiosity - was the "criminal water losses" more or less than the average coal fired power station of 158 mega litres.

These guys estimated that coal fired power stations use enough water for 5 million people nationally. Those criminal water losses must be really something.

EDIT: link won't work but there you go.

403 Forbidden (https://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-black-coal-industry-uses-enough-water-for-over-5-million-people-98731/#:~:text=NSW%20and%20Queensland%20coal%2Dfired,equ ivalent%20to%20one%20million%20litres).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There is an app for iPhone which allows you to watch the NEM spot market in real time - PocketNEM. It is quite fascinating to watch.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240102/e6637eaa1ad50e4e2fe4df20a4b0c5c8.jpg

At times power generators will actually pay for consumers to take power to avoid shutting down. You can even see notifications for when AEMO intervenes.

So it can even be in the generators interest to have distributed “virtual” storage farms by way of hundreds of thousands of EVs that can be slowly charged when there is excess power and later discharged to meet short term peak power demands.

A study from the UK shows that V2G can help avoid billions in infrastructure upgrades by helping to level out these peaks and troughs.

Case study (UK): Electric vehicle-to-grid (V2G) charging | Ofgem (https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/case-study-uk-electric-vehicle-grid-v2g-charging)

Of course the EV owners should be fairly compensated for this - the same as residential solar should be compensated when feeding the grid.

That is exceptionally cool.

Shame the power companies don't allow end users to be able to buy/sell into the market with instant power pricing. I guess.. it's not to their advantage..

[DiscoDB]

That is exceptionally cool.

Shame the power companies don't allow end users to be able to buy/sell into the market with instant power pricing. I guess.. it's not to their advantage..

The power companies don’t decide this or manage this - that is the role of the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO).

AEMO | Who we are (https://aemo.com.au/about/who-we-are)

How does the Australian electricity market work? - What's Watt (https://whatswatt.com.au/how-does-the-electricity-market-work/)

Private companies can register to be participants in the NEM.

But it would be cool if you could be a micro-trader and buy and sell direct into the NEM bypassing the energy providers.

[RANDLOVER]

The National Energy Market is certainly a strange one, and one which large power consumers and generators could potentially manipulate to make money - the same way stock markets can be manipulated.....

Here in Qld price manipulation is being alleged in a class action law suit QLD Electricity Class Action (qldenergyclassaction.com.au) (https://www.qldenergyclassaction.com.au/)



May 2016
in May 2016 - The Queensland Productivity Commission recommended that the Government require CS Energy and Stanwell to develop and adhere to a voluntary Code of Conduct in respect of their rebidding behaviour.
FULL REPORT BY THE QUEENSLAND PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION (https://qpc.blob.core.windows.net/wordpress/2017/06/EPI-Final-Report.pdf)


September 2017
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) conducted an extensive inquiry into this issue.
PRELIMINARY REPORT BY THE ACCC (https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Retail%20Electricity%20Inquiry%20-%20Preliminary%20report%20-%2013%20November%202017.pdf)


Throughout 2017
In 2017, intense media scrutiny on Stanwell and CS Energy artificially increasing prices finally pushed the State government to issue a direction (https://yhejitl3sl24wn203q4vn14z-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/Stanwell-Annual-Report-2016-17-Tabled.pdf#page=13) that their 'bidding games' need to stop.


July 2018
In July 2018, The Grattan Institute published a report concluding that Stanwell and CS Energy "game" the system by using their market power to create artificial scarcity of supply and so force prices up.
FULL REPORT BY THE GRATTAN INSTITUTE (https://grattan.edu.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/905-Mostly-working.pdf)


December 2018
AER concluded in its December 2018 report that Stanwell and CS Energy "…appeared to have exercised market power at times in the past five years."
FULL REPORT BY AER (https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/Wholesale%20electricity%20market%20performance%20r eport%20-%20December%202018_0.pdf)


July 2019
In July 2019, when media attention was elsewhere, the Queensland Government removed their previous direction regarding "bidding games", leaving Queenslanders and Queensland businesses once again vulnerable to energy price spikes and related job losses.

[Tombie]

The power companies don’t decide this or manage this - that is the role of the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO).

AEMO | Who we are (https://aemo.com.au/about/who-we-are)

How does the Australian electricity market work? - What's Watt (https://whatswatt.com.au/how-does-the-electricity-market-work/)

Private companies can register to be participants in the NEM.

But it would be cool if you could be a micro-trader and buy and sell direct into the NEM bypassing the energy providers.

It could be and it could be detrimental.

We monitor energy pricing live on site - and make decisions to idle plants when pricing jumps (production loss $ vs cost).

I’ve seen power prices spike in the realm of $15k mWh. I wouldn’t want to be using at that point!

[Tombie]

Biggest renewables in Aus.

And today we’re drawing everything in!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240103/1c65235406d844ed14b90c4dae91cd1c.jpg

[DiscoDB]

The spot price movements are amazing. $16,600/MWh is the maximum the market is currently capped at, but can also go below zero to -$1,000/MWh.

You will often see the coal plants in Victoria go negative during the day when renewables max out and the coal plants back off to their minimum load. Have even seen renewables sold at negative pricing as AEMO decides who supplies based on the lowest spot price so this keeps the appearance of some “competition”.

Of course not all energy is traded at spot pricing - a portion of the base load is on fixed contracts.

I fully support the idea of keeping Coal as the base load, and the Aluminium industry has been a key enabler underpinning base load power generation in Victoria.

The idea though that an essential service can be traded to maximise profit doesn’t always sit well - but then you see the claims that the QLD government owned generators allegedly manipulating the market and you shake your head.

[NavyDiver]

"QuantumScape has posted its Q3 2023 report, and A0 prototype testing has delivered results that were better than expected."
"The company states that although its commercial target for its solid-state cells remains at 80% energy retention through 800 charge cycles, one prospective automotive customer found much better results testing the A0 cells."

Smaller, lighter, higher energy density Significantly faster charging with no risk of fires[biggrin]

"Those labs completed over 1,000 full cycle equivalents and achieved over 95% discharge energy retention using test conditions of C/3 charge and C/2 discharge with QuantumScape’s standard temperature and pressure conditions, and 100% depth of discharge. In the Q3 report, QuantumScape patted itself on the back for this encouraging result, but isn’t shopping for yachts any time soon – there is still plenty of room for improvement. Per the company:
We emphasize that this is the best-performing cell and we have work to do on aspects such as reliability. Nonetheless, this is an exceptional result. We are not aware of any automotive-format lithium-metal battery that has shown such high discharge energy retention over a comparable cycle count, at room temperature and modest pressure, regardless of C-rate. We believe that no competing electrolyte — solid or liquid — has demonstrated sufficient stability with lithium metal to achieve this, and that this result sets a new high-water mark for lithium-metal battery performance."

"QuantumScape’s Q3 report states that the company’s single-layer solid-state cells have now achieved between 1,500 to 2,000 cycles with approximately 80% discharge energy retention with zero externally applied pressure. For comparison, QS states that 500 to 1,000 charge-discharge cycles represents the key life cycle threshold for most consumer electronics applications."


NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE. There are others racing to get hard core (Solid State)[thumbsupbig]

[Arapiles]

Yes we do. They call them “elections “, and we have them periodically. You may have noticed a few interesting results overseas recently.

Nobody is building coal powered generators in this country because legislators have made it uneconomic to do so. Legislators can change.

Actually, it's because they're uneconomic and banks won't lend money to build them, even with the Coalition's offer of subsidies: the number-crunching reveals that they'd never earn enough to break even let alone pay back the banks. The banks aren't ideologically driven, like the insurers in relation to climate change, they look at the hard numbers and allocate their funds accordingly.

As I've said before, coal mines and coal-powered power stations have been regarded internationally as "stranded assets" for several decades now. As a result they're "unbankable".

I should note that this is an area I have some professional expertise in as I worked in Asia and Europe on a number of project financings for large oil, gas and renewables projects (e.g. in Sakhalin and the North-West Shelf) and more recently did it as a subject in my Masters.

[PhilipA]

They would be financed if State or Federal governments guaranteed the loan. Funny thats how they used to be built in the "bad old days" of State Governments taking responsibility for providing a public service.
In addition if they were guaranteed payments to provide backup services when solar and wind do not work. This is the case in UK so don't say it is not possible.
It is ideology that prevents new coal power stations and many countries in the World are building new ones. how many in China? If you argue that nobody is building them how come coal production is going up?
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

They would be financed if State or Federal governments guaranteed the loan. Funny thats how they used to be built in the "bad old days" of State Governments taking responsibility for providing a public service.
In addition if they were guaranteed payments to provide backup services when solar and wind do not work. This is the case in UK so don't say it is not possible.
It is ideology that prevents new coal power stations and many countries in the World are building new ones. how many in China? If you argue that nobody is building them how come coal production is going up?
Regards PhilipA

Ying and yang Phillip.

"Japanese power company and LNG importer, Kansai Electric, scrapped plans to build a liquefied natural gas power plant in Wakayama.The company originally started looking into the construction of the LNG thermal power plant with a capacity of 3.7 GW back in 1995.
“In the 1990s, our company promoted the Wakayama power plant construction project to cope with the substantial growth in the demand for electrical power; however due to factors such as decline in demand, in 2004, the construction was suspended,” Kansai Electric (Kepco) said in a statement"

Thats a "Loss of about $858 million"
" The company instead is now focused on developing /operating greener options,like nuclear and hydrogen.[thumbsupbig]

On the flip side German is adding dirty coal a bit "government announced (https://www.euractiv.com/section/coal/news/germany-extends-emergency-coal-capacity-for-another-winter/?utm_source=Euractiv&utm_campaign=5a416aa971-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_24f4b280c0-63203c2dbc-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D) the continuation of this policy, meaning 1.9GW of lignite coal-fired capacity will still be added to Germany’s 45GW of coal power plant"

IF the German coalition government survives a year, I will be surprised[bigwhistle] The difference is very clear between Japan and German to me.

MG4 update- The car is back with the dealer mostly so the issues are logged officially. It is a deal breaker for me with Auto lane keeping trying to kill me or really scare me into being hyper vigilant 100% of the time. It's not just EV's the newer smart stuff is not smart enough.

The automatic adaptive cruise control is fantastic. Any car trying to drive us off the road or into oncoming traffic with "lane keeping assistance" does not pass the pub test:bat:

Tesla is having worse issues with 2,000,000 odd cars being recalled.

It's really a software update to my car and other current high tech cars required to allow me to turn off things [B]or make them better.

The similar issues with Mercedes "issues with Mercedes lane keep assist" and other tech functions are easy to find. Landrover complaints are not hard to find either.
"I have a new 2023 RRSport and am interested in others opinions on the Lane Keep Assist functionality. I have had many vehicles with this option and two other current vehicles currently to compare this with. I feel that, when using the cruise and having the lane keep assist option activated, that the vehicle is very aggressive in the way it helps steer towards the center of the lane. Even on straight roads, I test letting the car drift slightly to one side or the other and it is very jerky, not gradual, as it brings the vehicle back into the lane. My wife actually yelled at me the other day as she was trying to sleep as it is not a smooth movement. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP/yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7 I doubt there is any way to adjust the sensitivity of this but is a feature I always order on my cars….and is one I rarely use now on this one. Rather frustrated with this. Curious to see if anyone else feels the same (https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/2023-rrsport-aggressive-lane-keep-assist.359357/)"

I fully agree with a response to above "I don’t use it because I feel like it resists my decisions about steering a little too much. That makes me feel like I don’t have control. Like if I am overriding the cars effort to pull me away from a line, it strongly opposes me. Hope that makes sense."

The loan car is a 2017 Nissan x trail. Interesting yet no thanks.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The power companies don’t decide this or manage this - that is the role of the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO).

AEMO | Who we are (https://aemo.com.au/about/who-we-are)

How does the Australian electricity market work? - What's Watt (https://whatswatt.com.au/how-does-the-electricity-market-work/)

Private companies can register to be participants in the NEM.

But it would be cool if you could be a micro-trader and buy and sell direct into the NEM bypassing the energy providers.
I have a relative who was (maybe still is) one of those guys who sits in darkened rooms watching screens trading electricity.

I understand that in SA they were allowing people to sell back to the grid at the spot price. Or maybe it was just a trial.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It seems I have to sign up for the right power company.

Households playing the wholesale power market potentially slashing bills — but not without risk - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-04/australian-households-tap-spot-power-market-as-prices-plunge/103058544)

[Arapiles]

That is exceptionally cool.

Shame the power companies don't allow end users to be able to buy/sell into the market with instant power pricing. I guess.. it's not to their advantage..


Actually, you can play in the power market if you want to, but you need to know what you're doing and/or be prepared to cop a loss on the chin:

Power prices: Households cash in on solar energy boom (afr.com) (https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/we-turn-everything-on-we-can-households-cash-in-on-solar-boom-20240102-p5eunq)

Edit: removed the link already in the post above.

[Arapiles]

They would be financed if State or Federal governments guaranteed the loan. Funny thats how they used to be built in the "bad old days" of State Governments taking responsibility for providing a public service.
In addition if they were guaranteed payments to provide backup services when solar and wind do not work. This is the case in UK so don't say it is not possible.
It is ideology that prevents new coal power stations and many countries in the World are building new ones. how many in China? If you argue that nobody is building them how come coal production is going up?
Regards PhilipA


Actually, the Coalition offered subsidies for coal powered generation and I don't think that anyone actually took them up on it. And that was after changing the clean energy council's rules to allow them to finance coal plants.

The allegations about China building heaps of new coal plants have been kicking around the internet for a few years now, but an investigation showed that few of the announced ones have actually been built and few of those actually built are operating - because it's not economic to do so.

[Xtreme]

https://www.aulro.com/app/data/1459/20240104_Wind_Turbines.jpg

[PhilipA]

So all the old small ones are stranded assets. ( just like coal fired power stations?)
I can recall driving from Las Vegas across the mountains to the California coast in about 1987 and passing hundreds of small wind generators which were defunct and just sitting there, the operator having gone broke.
Regards PhilipA

[3toes]

Those small wind farms were built due to subsidies being offered. A bit far back in the memory banks but it was an attempt to kick start what would today be seen as green energy. At the time it was about ‘energy security’. Unfortunately there was something about the subsidies being for building without a requirement to generate any power. Took the subsidies which far exceeded the build cost and closed down. Probably a simplification of what happened

[NavyDiver]

Not at all, a lot more will die or suffer in the process.

Where do you think the Graphene comes from? Want to hear stories of the atrocities that go on in that region? The corruption and loss of lives? A good friend is one of the Process bosses and the **** that goes on, the corrupt local leaders and their disregard for life of their people is mind blowing. And why? Because they can manipulate the mines to change things like river flows, dams etc that result in ALL the water to downstream villages drying up.

Yes, that’s the true face of this wonderful push to be environmentally sound. At least those dead villagers are good for carbon sequestered into the ground.

Mining more to build more to pollute less is madness. Less emissions would occur simply be reducing new vehicle production and insisting on current ones being up to code on emissions controls they already have.

Do that whilst developing real solutions like Green H. Then allow new vehicles to be built based on that tech.

You think I’m short sighted? Batteries are short sighted.

You’re absolutely correct - adapt or die.

Adapt to the sensible realisation that finite space and resources demands finite populations and emissions. They aren’t mutually exclusive as many seem to think.

Adapt to changing weather conditions that aren’t going away anytime soon.

There is another way[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] For Graphene I mean. Batteries fit some applications like your watch, phone..........[biggrin] Mining in several developing nations is a Shocker plus. Not arguing with that!

Back to my MG

Several Software updates on it. The acronyms used baffled the staff. I got a few of them. BMS was easy. One seems to have made the Lane Keeping assist a lot subtler. It did 'not' allow my settings to remain. Turn the car off and it reverts to what MG wanted not what I want:rulez::rulez::rulez:

Its not going to be just me. " The Federal Government is planning to introduce compulsory lane keep technologies from 2024 (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/the-australian-government-proposes-mandatory-lane-keeping-assist-for-new-cars)"

I'll be doing several hundred KM again in a week or two. Be interesting to see what the other updates do.

Once A.I. is integrated in our cars perhaps it will be ???????

The rapid integration of AI in business is amazing to watch. Suspect it will be as revolutionary as computers or the internal combustion engine changes.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Those small wind farms were built due to subsidies being offered. A bit far back in the memory banks but it was an attempt to kick start what would today be seen as green energy. At the time it was about ‘energy security’. Unfortunately there was something about the subsidies being for building without a requirement to generate any power. Took the subsidies which far exceeded the build cost and closed down. Probably a simplification of what happened
It seems to happen too with mines. I've seen heaps around the country where clearly whoever was operating them seems to just walk off and leaves the place as it was. In some cases with toxic chemicals everywhere.

[Arapiles]

It seems to happen too with mines. I've seen heaps around the country where clearly whoever was operating them seems to just walk off and leaves the place as it was. In some cases with toxic chemicals everywhere.

It's not uncommon for mines to be placed on "care and maintenance" if the price of the mineral or metal that they're producing at that mine falls to a price where it's not economic to continue - most likely with small scale underground mines where the margins are slim.

[NavyDiver]

"Tesla recalls 1.6 million electric vehicles in ChinaThe cars reportedly have problems with their automatic assisted steering and door latch controls."

I think that's now 3.6 million recalled[bigwhistle] BYD now out selling Tesla might not be the key player now? The first good Solid state battery might be the one to watch?

[JDNSW]

......

Its not going to be just me. " The Federal Government is planning to introduce compulsory lane keep technologies from 2024 (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/the-australian-government-proposes-mandatory-lane-keeping-assist-for-new-cars)"

I'll be doing several hundred KM again in a week or two. Be interesting to see what the other updates do.

.......

I drove a couple of hundred kilometres yesterday. Only about 10% of it had marked lanes. Wouldn't the money spent on this sort of thing be better spent on road improvements? (Oh, I forgot - road improvements cost governments money, extra gadgets only cost car buyers!)

[PhilipA]

Several Software updates on it. The acronyms used baffled the staff. I got a few of them. BMS was easy. One seems to have made the Lane Keeping assist a lot subtler. It did 'not' allow my settings to remain. Turn the car off and it reverts to what MG wanted not what I want:rulez::rulez::rulez:

At least my Everest has a button on the end of the indicator stalk to turn it off and it stays off on start up.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

At least my Everest has a button on the end of the indicator stalk to turn it off and it stays off on start up.
Regards PhilipA

Fully agree Phillip. Almost happy that it's only a Software fix which will occur as hundreds of grumpy people do not advertise well for any car sales[thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

At least my Everest has a button on the end of the indicator stalk to turn it off and it stays off on start up.
Regards PhilipA

Same for my Dmax - one button on/off - settings are kept. They have only done this with the latest model apparently after numerous complaints about it resetting every startup and being a pain to turn off through the menu.

Try a new Hilux out if you want really badly implemented driver assist - or even worse, a Haval... What gets me is the Rav4 is done really well - my partner has one, but they don't seem to have copied the software for the Hilux and it's bloody aweful.

[NavyDiver]

"(Reuters) -Tesla has lowered driving-range estimates across its lineup of electric vehicles as a new U.S. government vehicle-testing regulation takes effect with the goal of ensuring that automakers accurately reflect real-world performance.
Tesla has historically issued range estimates that overstate what its cars can deliver, prompting widespread complaints from customers, according to some automotive testing experts and a Reuters investigation last year."

Wish our government would do the same to all of the fibbers[thumbsupbig]

This bit is not reasonable at all "Reuters reported in July that the automaker, about a decade ago, rigged the algorithm that controls in-dash range estimates in Tesla vehicles to give rosy projections of how far owners can drive before needing to recharge. The story also found the automaker created a secret team in 2022 to suppress thousands of driving-range complaints and cancel owners' range-related service appointments." Link (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/companies/tesla-lowers-range-estimates-as-u-s-regulators-tighten-vehicle-test-rules/ar-AA1mK5LG?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=05386023037347519e8c4692396b734f&ei=14) I would say more but it might be too political!

[NavyDiver]

Evie Network price increases

The suns shining into my car for free now

Price change details

Effective January 18th, 2024, our charging prices will be adjusted as follows:


[B]22kW chargers: 35c to 50c per kWh.

50kW fast chargers: 50c to 58c per kWh.

150kW super-fast chargers: 60c to 68c per kWh.

350kW ultra-fast chargers: 65c to 73c per kWh.

[TonyC]

"(Reuters) -Tesla has lowered driving-range estimates across its lineup of electric vehicles as a new U.S. government vehicle-testing regulation takes effect with the goal of ensuring that automakers accurately reflect real-world performance.
Tesla has historically issued range estimates that overstate what its cars can deliver, prompting widespread complaints from customers, according to some automotive testing experts and a Reuters investigation last year."

Wish our government would do the same to all of the fibbers[thumbsupbig]

Why to you blame the car maker for this?

Car makers are required to test cars, ICE and EV, to a Government test. That test doesn't reflect feeway driving, which is were EVs struggle.

My Subaru doesn't come close to it's test numbers either.

This issue needs to be aimed at government, not car makers.

Tony

[scarry]

Why to you blame the car maker for this?

Car makers are required to test cars, ICE and EV, to a Government test.


Tony

With ICE vehicles in Aus,the car manufacturer supplies the vehicle to whoever tests them.This is done in a specialist laboratory,audited and controlled by the overseeing Govt body.
The manufacturer will do their own tests,but these are not the rated published figures.

EVS could be tested differently,possibly by the manufacturer?

[Tins]

Love 'em or not, doesn't matter. I have to wonder how long insurers are going to put up with $5000 blankets, countless firefighters, half a dozen appliances, and escorted transport to an isolated place in a yard. This one looks like a JLR product.


https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY'si=c6hDUygHniVnxy3i

[Tins]

In a ULEZ no less.. (https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/11/critical-incident-declared-electric-bus-fire-london-20096842/)

[Tins]

In a ULEZ no less.. (https://metro.co.uk/2024/01/11/critical-incident-declared-electric-bus-fire-london-20096842/)


https://youtu.be/DV5c379D66M'si=KBOLe9mOZTe5R67m

[NavyDiver]

Why to you blame the car maker for this?

Car makers are required to test cars, ICE and EV, to a Government test. That test doesn't reflect feeway driving, which is were EVs struggle.

My Subaru doesn't come close to it's test numbers either.

This issue needs to be aimed at government, not car makers.

Tony

Fully agree. It should be illegal! That is a government/regulator fault. The Lexus I had prior to my Landrover speedo showed 100kph when the car was doing 90-92! Our stupid government/regulator rulz says 10% below is OK:bat::bat::bat::bat::bat:


The fault is clear. The truth is we allow it by not demanding truthful and honest in so many areas. I am a grumpy old man[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[Tombie]

Fully agree. It should be illegal! That is a government/regulator fault. The Lexus I had prior to my Landrover speedo showed 100kph when the car was doing 90-92! Our stupid government/regulator rulz says 10% below is OK:bat::bat::bat::bat::bat:


The fault is clear. The truth is we allow it by not demanding truthful and honest in so many areas. I am a grumpy old man[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

If you’re going to go down that rabbit hole be careful.

Every tyre manufacturer uses nominal sizes, one brand will have the speedo close to accurate, another may be out 8%.

Who has to comply there?

At the end of the day the ICE consumption test is just an indicator, if you compare vehicles and one is lower, it should use less fuel. Just don’t use the number itself as gospel.

Same with appliance energy / water use ratings.

[NavyDiver]

If you’re going to go down that rabbit hole be careful.

Every tyre manufacturer uses nominal sizes, one brand will have the speedo close to accurate, another may be out 8%.

Who has to comply there?

At the end of the day the ICE consumption test is just an indicator, if you compare vehicles and one is lower, it should use less fuel. Just don’t use the number itself as gospel.

Same with appliance energy / water use ratings.

Understand that bit. Tyre size changes impacted on the speedo of a car imported from Japan as a case point. It was my cousin's car. He thought my LADA towing a boat was doing over 120Kph ++++[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

We have enough smart people to let car manufactures tell us the truth or not misinform us when blind Freddy can see its waffle.

The same goes in many areas of course. My red line is allowing dishonestly misinforming us by business taking a LOT of money from us for products that do not do what is promised.

Rabbit holes need avoidance [thumbsupbig]

[Tins]

Speaking of rabbit holes....


The Lexus I had prior to my Landrover speedo showed 100kph when the car was doing 90-92!

I think you will find that nearly all newer cars are built this way. I was once told that it was in fact a mandate, but I have no evidence of this. However, it is one of the reasons people scream "SPEEDING" when a heavy vehicle is involved. Speedos in modern prime movers are usually accurate, because they can be calibrated for different axle ratios and tyre sizes, so when they say 100 they mean 100. Nearly 10% faster than the car that says 100 when it means 92.

[NavyDiver]

Speaking of rabbit holes....



I think you will find that nearly all newer cars are built this way. I was once told that it was in fact a mandate, but I have no evidence of this. However, it is one of the reasons people scream "SPEEDING" when a heavy vehicle is involved. Speedos in modern prime movers are usually accurate, because they can be calibrated for different axle ratios and tyre sizes, so when they say 100 they mean 100. Nearly 10% faster than the car that says 100 when it means 92.

Both the new cars I have had over the last four years are on the button John. (MG XSev and MG 4 ev) My Disco was very good unless I put the MTs on [biggrin]. One more post here then I am offline. It's almost stressful being successful[bigrolf]

VW kicking but with Solid state from the company that paid for both my cars!!

Volkswagen’s battery-focused in-house subsidiary, Power Co, has been working with California-based QuantumScape to develop solid-state batteries. As with so many others working on the same tech, the problem has not been designing and making a battery that works — that’s the easy part. The problem has been creating a battery that can work, repeatedly, for years of service.

QuantumScape’s design gets around that problem, in part, by doing away with the lithium anode altogether. That battery design has just been put through a grueling test by Volkswagen and Power Co — one thousand charge cycles; that’s a full recharge and discharge, enough to take a car with a 500km electric range for 500,000km. And the battery survived. In fact, it not only survived, it still had 95 per cent of its original charge capacity left. For context, most electric car lithium-ion batteries are only warrantied to retain around 80 per cent capacity after 160,000km.

Has Volkswagen just cracked the solid-state battery conundrum? – The Irish Times (https://www.irishtimes.com/motors/2024/01/11/has-volkswagen-just-cracked-the-solid-state-battery-conundrum/) NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

I’ll say no - I don’t believe any company about ‘groundbreaking new tech’ until there’s something in production being used and independently tested. Doubly so for battery and solid state tech as most are just trying to hype things up to get extra investment dollars.

I don’t believe 1000 charge cycles either - that’s either theoretical or done under lab conditions in a very short time so won’t replicate years of really world discharging and recharging. Happy to be proven wrong when these are in cars and doing great after 10 years - get back to me then.

And being VW I call double BS so that’s quadruple BS as far as I see it.

[Tins]

I’ll say no - I don’t believe any company about ‘groundbreaking new tech’ until there’s something in production being used and independently tested. Doubly so for battery and solid state tech as most are just trying to hype things up to get extra investment dollars.

I don’t believe 1000 charge cycles either - that’s either theoretical or done under lab conditions in a very short time so won’t replicate years of really world discharging and recharging. Happy to be proven wrong when these are in cars and doing great after 10 years - get back to me then.

And being VW I call double BS so that’s quadruple BS as far as I see it.

Yep. And VW are desperate atm. They are in very deep trouble financially for a number of self inflicted reasons.

[scarry]

Speaking of rabbit holes....



I think you will find that nearly all newer cars are built this way. I was once told that it was in fact a mandate, but I have no evidence of this. However, it is one of the reasons people scream "SPEEDING" when a heavy vehicle is involved. Speedos in modern prime movers are usually accurate, because they can be calibrated for different axle ratios and tyre sizes, so when they say 100 they mean 100. Nearly 10% faster than the car that says 100 when it means 92.


It is often worse than that,many long haul trucks seem to sit on at least an actual of 105 Km/hr,so they are doing close to 13Km/hr more than someone sitting on 100 Km / hr,not realising they are actually doing something like 92Km/hr.
My brothers Mitsy Sport,stock OEM tyres,is doing an actual of 92Km/hr at 100Km/hr on the Speedo.

All stupidity and dangerous,in this day and age,surely we can get a speedo to read accurately,just like my other brother’s stock Disco 1,it reads spot on.

[NavyDiver]

Yep. And VW are desperate atm. They are in very deep trouble financially for a number of self inflicted reasons.
Not a VW cheer squad[thumbsupbig] Others tested the Solid-state battery and found the same. DYOR of course. LAST POST PLAYING [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

sorry

[PhilipA]

It is often worse than that, many long haul trucks seem to sit on at least an actual of 105 Km/hr,so they are doing close to 13Km/hr more than someone sitting on 100 Km / hr,not realising they are actually doing something like 92Km/hr.
I understand from long ago that some truckies put smaller diameter tyres on when the tachymeter is programmed. simple then to change to larger tyres.
I have been around MANY trucks doing 105 or sometimes a little more as determined by my GPS not car speedo.
Strangely some of the worse offenders seem to be Australia Post trucks. I don't know if they are subbies or company owned but it seems strange.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

I understand from long ago that some truckies put smaller diameter tyres on when the tachymeter is programmed. simple then to change to larger tyres.
I have been around MANY trucks doing 105 or sometimes a little more as determined by my GPS not car speedo.
Strangely some of the worse offenders seem to be Australia Post trucks. I don't know if they are subbies or company owned but it seems strange.
Regards PhilipA

Yep - way back when the truck tyre fitters would come into our yard, fit tiny tyres to the drives then we’d run the truck on the chassis dyno and program the ECU to 100KPH the. They’d stick the normal tyres back on - it would give then about a dollar 15 on the GPS while the speedo still read 100. Fun Police put the kibosh on that one - well the real Police actually…

[Tins]

Where I worked before there were three Freightliners and two Scanias. None of them did the same road speed, but all of them did the same indicated speed, dollar one on the limiter. But there wasn't much in it. My R730 was the slowest, but it was by far the quickest [bigwhistle]. The other Scania, R620, was the fastest. Sneaky bloke got some Scania mech with a laptop to alter the ratios. Still, mine did 99c and his did a dollar four. He used to chuckle as he drew away slowly, but smiled on the other side of his face come a hill. Funny thing though... none of us ever actually killed anyone.

[Tins]

Not sure about the translation... but his English is better than my Mandarin


https://youtu.be/DR5BOl8aglI'si=6OLzMqstf3dbcU59

[Tins]

Car rental giant Hertz dumps Teslas.. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/01/11/hertz-sells-tesla-electric-cars-drivers-stick-with-petrol/?WT.mc_id=e_DM261546)

[NavyDiver]

Car rental giant Hertz dumps Teslas.. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/01/11/hertz-sells-tesla-electric-cars-drivers-stick-with-petrol/?WT.mc_id=e_DM261546)

Cheap used cars[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[Tins]

Cheap used cars[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Yep. 20,000 of them. gunna do wonders to the already depressed used car market in the US. Possibly affect Tesla stock valuation as well, given Hertz was originally looking at getting 100,000 of the things.

[NavyDiver]

Yep. 20,000 of them. gunna do wonders to the already depressed used car market in the US. Possibly affect Tesla stock valuation as well, given Hertz was originally looking at getting 100,000 of the things.

New price Model Y in USA is $43,990 - $52,490 USD
Here is the Hetz used ones List https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-tesla/model-y.htm?geoZip=&geoRadius=0

Is a 2022 with 79,819 miles cheap at $33500USD
(128456KM
)

Of interest that's about the same 10K ish price change on my 2020 mg XS 42K to 32K in AUD with 50K KM on it.

Doesn't seem cheap John?

[Tins]

New price Model Y in USA is $43,990 - $52,490 USD
Here is the Hetz used ones List https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-tesla/model-y.htm?geoZip=&geoRadius=0

Is a 2022 with 79,819 miles cheap at $33500USD
(
128456KM
)

Of interest that's about the same 10K ish price change on my 2020 mg XS 42K to 32K in AUD with 50K KM on it.

Doesn't seem cheap John?

Free wouldn't be cheap enough for me, James. You know that......[bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

What they’re advertised at and what they fetch are 2 different things.

There are stacks of used Teslas on Carsales from $38K for a 2021 model 3 and it’s been there for ages. Was $48K a few months back. Has 114KKM on it so is seen as high mileage - We just sold a 7YO Hilux at work with 160KKM on it for $42K

Hands up who can say ‘Depreciation’? 🤪

[Tombie]

It is often worse than that,many long haul trucks seem to sit on at least an actual of 105 Km/hr,so they are doing close to 13Km/hr more than someone sitting on 100 Km / hr,not realising they are actually doing something like 92Km/hr.
My brothers Mitsy Sport,stock OEM tyres,is doing an actual of 92Km/hr at 100Km/hr on the Speedo.

All stupidity and dangerous,in this day and age,surely we can get a speedo to read accurately,just like my other brother’s stock Disco 1,it reads spot on.

You can only get a speedo to be accurate (without intervention) by:

Factory sets tyre to be used and calibrates accordingly
Owner then sticks to Using only the factory fitted tyre
Recalibrating it for tread wear through its life.

[Arapiles]

I understand from long ago that some truckies put smaller diameter tyres on when the tachymeter is programmed. simple then to change to larger tyres.
I have been around MANY trucks doing 105 or sometimes a little more as determined by my GPS not car speedo.
Strangely some of the worse offenders seem to be Australia Post trucks. I don't know if they are subbies or company owned but it seems strange.
Regards PhilipA


Actually, GPS isn't particularly accurate about speed across the ground - someone on a speeding charge in the UK tried that a few years back and the court didn't accept it.

[scarry]

You can only get a speedo to be accurate (without intervention) by:

Factory sets tyre to be used and calibrates accordingly
Owner then sticks to Using only the factory fitted tyre
Recalibrating it for tread wear through its life.

Tyre wear and different brands,but same size,and type, are maybe with in 1 to 2% maximum difference in rolling diameter.Which is stuff all,still very close.
Still no where near the rediculous 6 to 8% or even more difference in speedo readings,from actual, in most new vehicles today,brand new,OEM tyre.
Then add tyre wear,different brand, as you say,it could get slightly worse.

I have always found the GPS speed read out on the Garmin street finder i have in the work van to be extremely accurate.
In fact most of the time i drive by it,not the vehicles speedo,which reads around 5% under consistently.

[TonyC]

The ADRs requires a speedo to read between 0 and 10% high.

So a car maker, playing it safe, it's no surprise speedos generally read 5% high.

Our Subaru speedo reads 4-5% high, but the speed output on the OBD port is bang on.

Tony

[Tombie]

Having said all the above - on a D3/4/RRS it’s easy to go into the CCF and make your speedometer read accurately.

[TonyC]

Having said all the above - on a D3/4/RRS it’s easy to go into the CCF and make your speedometer read accurately.

Hi Mike,

Does this change both the speedo and odo, or just the speedo?

Tony

[Homestar]

A bit of a wake up call in the colder parts of the USA at the moment - Electric vehicle owners face huge challenges amid Chicago cold snap – NBC Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/electric-vehicle-owners-face-huge-challenges-amid-chicago-cold-snap/3328085/)

And so much for 'cheaper to run' - https://www.drive.com.au/news/evie-hikes-prices-up-to-40-per-cent/ Using a 150KW charger would now be the same price as running something like a Mazda 3 or equivalent - except the EV costs twice as much to start with so those needing to use public charging aren't clawing back any of the purchase cost any more. Something the EV brigade were touting as one of the biggest benefits... [bigwhistle]

[101RRS]

And so much for 'cheaper to run'

On the news last night. A media organisation got two 7 series BMWs, a EV and a petrol. Both all fuelled/charged up.

Then started from Melbourne and drove to Sydney.

The ICE BMW used $119 of 98 octane and the EV BMW used $132 of fast charging and took over 2 hours longer than the ICE to complete the journey. Some chargers were out of order but no petrol pumps were.

Conclusion - EVs might be great around town but are still not the cost and time effective option for intra/inter state travel.

[Homestar]

Even if you wanted to the options aren't looking any better than they were some time ago and now Chargepoint are shutting down their chargers in Australia - https://www.drive.com.au/news/us-owned-electric-car-charging-network-pulls-the-plug-on-australia/

And Tritium are pulling out of manufacturing in Australia now that subsidies have dried up - Tritium: Electric vehicle charging company battles to keep its operations in Brisbane (https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/brisbane-based-charging-company-tritium-loses-its-spark-20231026-p5efel)

Someone show me some good news on the EV front - it all seems to be turning to **** everywhere.

[scarry]

And more

LOL, Tesla Charging Station In Chicago Becomes A Graveyard Due To Freezing Temperatures (https://www.bitchute.com/video/sfox5EAdd45r/?fbclid=IwAR1Qnm0Ericl50l_BuQymksi_CzPLaXXDEnYwRfw zAvbM6sosJS42OYA-sg)

[Old Farang]

Actually, GPS isn't particularly accurate about speed across the ground - someone on a speeding charge in the UK tried that a few years back and the court didn't accept it.
A bit ambiguous without the rest of the story. With a clear veiw of at least 3 satellites, the update is measured in milliseconds, even without an augumented signal. (DGPS) If you are inside a tunnel all bets are off!

[NavyDiver]

On the news last night. A media organisation got two 7 series BMWs, a EV and a petrol. Both all fuelled/charged up.

Then started from Melbourne and drove to Sydney.

The ICE BMW used $119 of 98 octane and the EV BMW used $132 of fast charging and took over 2 hours longer than the ICE to complete the journey. Some chargers were out of order but no petrol pumps were.

Conclusion - EVs might be great around town but are still not the cost and time effective option for intra/inter state travel.

Call it for crap myself ". It took just under 1 hour and 10 minutes for the i7 to get from 2 per cent through to 100 per cent. I could have pulled it off the charger early, but didn’t want to run the risk of running out of battery."

At 80% it would have been 1/2 that time and enough for the drive to Melbourne[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Not suggesting its quick with the current tech batteries.

No way I would want a almost 3 tonne car again[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

Too cold to charge?

"Uranium Payable metal in concentrate t 943 833 813 825 986 1,811 1,760 3% 1,127 683 1,275 481 895 1,376 1,399 (2)%" whoops thats BHP

Try

"As temperatures in this Chicago suburb plummeted to under zero this week for the first time in ages, the situation seemed to have become dire, with owners having to tow their Teslas out on flatbeds because chargers weren’t working, and their EVs had run out of juice. The TV station didn't mince words: “Public charging stations have turned into car graveyards,” reporters said, while calling depleted EVs “dead robots.” A barrage of similar stories (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/electric-vehicles-dead-robots-in-the-chicago-cold/) emerged out of this report, with several major publications echoing this voice."

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1n8IVW.img?w=534&h=300&m=6

[Homestar]

All through the North of the USA and also Canada are finding this out at the moment. A work colleague used to live in Canada and his friends there have been sending him pics of dead Teslas all over the place and charging stations full of them. Tow trucks are working overtime moving them about.

I bet there’s gunna be a quite a few for sale shortly and the second hand market will be flooded with them.

All hail our electric future! 🤣

[NavyDiver]

All through the North of the USA and also Canada are finding this out at the moment. A work colleague used to live in Canada and his friends there have been sending him pics of dead Teslas all over the place and charging stations full of them. Tow trucks are working overtime moving them about.

I bet there’s gunna be a quite a few for sale shortly and the second hand market will be flooded with them.

All hail our electric future! 🤣
No fuel in Kalgoorlie, Coolgardie, as tens of thousands of customers remain without power across WA's Goldfields, Wheatbelt


Not sure if EVs or ICE work with no power[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Hand pumps and jerry cans excluded [thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

At least ICE vehicle operate in cold climates - something the owners of EV’s should have been warned about - is there anything in the fine print saying charging may be difficult in cold weather?

I really think the concept has taken a hit up North in the USA - will be interesting to see EV sales figures in those States in the coming year.

[Tombie]

No fuel in Kalgoorlie, Coolgardie, as tens of thousands of customers remain without power across WA's Goldfields, Wheatbelt


Not sure if EVs or ICE work with no power[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Hand pumps and jerry cans excluded [thumbsupbig]

When SA went dark for 4 days, local service stations were running Gensets to keep on pumping.

For added security, many in this town now keep tanks full(ish) or hold reserves in drums.

Ironically?, we also have battery reserves (utilising solar on van etc) to keep instant HWS system running. As well as utilising boat fuel tanks as storage for keeping the good old Honda EU22i running when required.

[Saitch]

At least ICE vehicle operate in cold climates - something the owners of EV’s should have been warned about - is there anything in the fine print saying charging may be difficult in cold weather?

I really think the concept has taken a hit up North in the USA - will be interesting to see EV sales figures in those States in the coming year.

Perhaps a lot of the 'Evironmentally Conscious', driven buyers are being a bit too reliant on climate change?

[Tins]

Perhaps a lot of the 'Evironmentally Conscious', driven buyers are being a bit too reliant on climate change?

They will probably spin it to show that their approach must be working.

Silver lining I guess is that all those frozen Teslas are not impacting the grid atm, so ordinary folk can keep their heaters on.

[NavyDiver]

They will probably spin it to show that their approach must be working.

Silver lining I guess is that all those frozen Teslas are not impacting the grid atm, so ordinary folk can keep their heaters on.

Do you have electric heating John? I do. Heat pumps rock.



Below is from Novated lease car lease calculator SEM - Flare HR (https://www.flarehr.com/novated-lease-car-lease-calculator-sem?utm_term=novated%20lease%20cars%20for%20sale&utm_campaign=FlareHR+%7C+HQ+TermsPHRASE&utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=ppc&sf_source=Paid&sf_subsource=Bing&sf_description=Bing-Ads_Novated-Calculator&msclkid=08ae343ae4c81bf1916d5191fbd23d56&utm_content=Novated%20Lease%20MA) The 10k savings are No FBT and significantly reduced servicing costs I guess.

Fully appreciate the cost of the battery is still to high and still not solid state which will be my next if FCEV Landrover is not here yet. [bigrolf]

Save on average $6,000 on a internal combustion engine vehicle and $10,000 on an eligible electric vehicle

[4bee]

With ICE vehicles in Aus,the car manufacturer supplies the vehicle to whoever tests them.This is done in a specialist laboratory,audited and controlled by the overseeing Govt body.
The manufacturer will do their own tests,but these are not the rated published figures.

EVS could be tested differently,possibly by the manufacturer?



Have given up on all this fancy schmancy testing crap. Seems you cannot believe the "TEST" figures from any one of the crooks.

('im & 'er) could see the writing (or wrorting) on the wall, got shot of the '95 D1 facelift Discovery & replaced it with a Mazda CX3 Sport. 2 litre donk. 5 year warranty. Out now, but apart from the usual servicing not had one problem,( he says touching wood.)

Grabbed the trade in of $1000,( worth more [bigsad]) & not now subject to exorbitant fuel price increases & we fill up about 3 wk intervals & spend about the same as filling the Discovery for one week & doing the same KMs.

Lovely car except the interior is the usual Crap Black [bigsad], still, 'er indoors loves it ( more than me I suspect.)

The only problem I can see is, & you've seen images of blokes being driven to their final resting place in a favourite Series 1 with their muddy boots hanging out or over the tailgate & wrapped in a Blue Tarp.

At a pinch it could still be the CX3 Boot for me although it may be a tad tight WTF!, or a trailer but first off I would need a Tow Ball fitted to Maz.

[4bee]

When SA went dark for 4 days, local service stations were running Gensets to keep on pumping.

For added security, many in this town now keep tanks full(ish) or hold reserves in drums.

Ironically?, we also have battery reserves (utilising solar on van etc) to keep instant HWS system running. As well as utilising boat fuel tanks as storage for keeping the good old Honda EU22i running when required.

ICE still requires (in most cases)an electric pump to stick the fuel in at the local Servo..

Jerries
Always find a couple of ex Army 20 litre Jerries in my well ventilated shed, mainly for the rideon & as car reserve & Genset.

[Arapiles]

Just discovered that my new employer allows you to salary-package e-bikes .... I'm thinking of one of these:

They are actually a car replacement in most instances.

[Arapiles]

All through the North of the USA and also Canada are finding this out at the moment. A work colleague used to live in Canada and his friends there have been sending him pics of dead Teslas all over the place and charging stations full of them. Tow trucks are working overtime moving them about.

I bet there’s gunna be a quite a few for sale shortly and the second hand market will be flooded with them.

All hail our electric future! 🤣

There appear to be two issues: owners not taking into account reduced range because of the cold so arriving at the charger with under 10% charge and second not knowing that if it's cold the battery has to be heated up before it will charge - the Teslas will do this as you drive to the charging station but you have to tell it to. If you don't, when you get there and plug in it won't start taking on a charge at all until it gets to the right temperature, so you can add an hour or two to charging time, which then affects other users.

[Tins]

I'll let you make of this what you will.


https://youtu.be/TgfV_nDhWUc'si=TBvZYW-ShL3gwUXC

[spudfan]

‘If you turn up the heat on cold days, the range reduces’ – TD hits out as Bus Éireann admits battery problems with electric buses pilot (p.s. TD =MP)

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/if-you-turn-up-the-heat-on-cold-days-the-range-reduces-td-hits-out-as-bus-%C3%A9ireann-admits-battery-problems-with-electric-buses-pilot/ar-BB1h3iXX

[DiscoDB]

It is ironic that as EVs are much more efficient at converting energy into motion, and ICEs are so inefficient, that the ICE is impacted less by external factors (like cold weather, towing, and high speed).

In real terms an ICE still wastes 60-80% of the energy consumed - most of it lost as heat, and so the impacts of cold weather, towing, and high speed is proportionally less on an ICE compared to an EV.

So whilst it is true an EV becomes less efficient under certain conditions, an ICE is less efficient under all conditions - we just accept that most of the energy is wasted. And we have become so used to this, most of us will even disable the auto stop/start function when stationary and idling.

Don’t get me wrong - I am a big time energy waster and would happily own a V8 4WD. Privilege has its benefits. But I can appreciate the irony that EVs are so much more efficient under normal conditions that we are quick to criticise their performance under extreme conditions where the energy usage is more like - dare I say it - an ICE.

[Tombie]

ICE still requires (in most cases)an electric pump to stick the fuel in at the local Servo..

Jerries
Always find a couple of ex Army 20 litre Jerries in my well ventilated shed, mainly for the rideon & as car reserve & Genset.

It does. And the local servos have gensets to allow this.

(Or I go to the mine/port and fuel from their tank)

[Tombie]

It is ironic that as EVs are much more efficient at converting energy into motion, and ICEs are so inefficient, that the ICE is impacted less by external factors (like cold weather, towing, and high speed).

In real terms an ICE still wastes 60-80% of the energy consumed - most of it lost as heat, and so the impacts of cold weather, towing, and high speed is proportionally less on an ICE compared to an EV.

So whilst it is true an EV becomes less efficient under certain conditions, an ICE is less efficient under all conditions - we just accept that most of the energy is wasted. And we have become so used to this, most of us will even disable the auto stop/start function when stationary and idling.

Don’t get me wrong - I am a big time energy waster and would happily own a V8 4WD. Privilege has its benefits. But I can appreciate the irony that EVs are so much more efficient under normal conditions that we are quick to criticise their performance under extreme conditions where the energy usage is more like - dare I say it - an ICE.

You’re 100% right.

What I and many I discuss it with also dislike about an EV (the major dislike) is:

When I buy an ICE vehicle, and let’s assume I’ll keep it 10 years, it states the following:

Fuel consumption ~X litres / 100km
Fuel tank size (usable) - Y litres

Very quickly that can be converted to real world averages. So 10l/100km avg and 80 litre usable is 800 odd (avg) and an owner will know how it’s impacted by head winds, towing etc very quickly.

Even as that engine wears over time, these fuel figures really don’t change.

Then there’s an EV -
Range is quoted (always a lie)
Battery capacity is quoted

Quickly and owner can work it out, however they need to factor in a cold/hot day, HVAC consumption etc.

All good - kinda!


What doesn’t happen to the ICE owner is the equivalent of somebody coming along each year, bashing the bottom of the tank in by 10 litres (example only) and saying “your vehicle now only has a 70 litre tank this year”

A phone battery degrading over 12-18 months by 5-10% is frustrating enough. That can be augmented by slightly inconvenient power bricks. Cannot do such with an EV.

[Old Farang]

It does. And the local servos have gensets to allow this.

(Or I go to the mine/port and fuel from their tank)
Hello Tombie,

Somewhere I noticed that you have mentioned a Honda EU22i generator. Can you please tell me what you can run on it when there is a complete black out? Cheers

[DiscoDB]

You’re 100% right.

What I and many I discuss it with also dislike about an EV (the major dislike) is:

When I buy an ICE vehicle, and let’s assume I’ll keep it 10 years, it states the following:

Fuel consumption ~X litres / 100km
Fuel tank size (usable) - Y litres

Very quickly that can be converted to real world averages. So 10l/100km avg and 80 litre usable is 800 odd (avg) and an owner will know how it’s impacted by head winds, towing etc very quickly.

Even as that engine wears over time, these fuel figures really don’t change.

Then there’s an EV -
Range is quoted (always a lie)
Battery capacity is quoted

Quickly and owner can work it out, however they need to factor in a cold/hot day, HVAC consumption etc.

All good - kinda!


What doesn’t happen to the ICE owner is the equivalent of somebody coming along each year, bashing the bottom of the tank in by 10 litres (example only) and saying “your vehicle now only has a 70 litre tank this year”

A phone battery degrading over 12-18 months by 5-10% is frustrating enough. That can be augmented by slightly inconvenient power bricks. Cannot do such with an EV.

Yes - over time an EV’s battery degrades by 1.5-2% a year - but still uses energy more efficiently albeit with reduced range. Perfectly suitable for 80% of the cars used around metro areas, and when the batteries hit 80% capacity after 10-15 years (possibly even 20 years if looked after) could always be replaced and repurposed as house batteries.

Of course with an ICE we are still carrying and using more fuel which 60% of the energy will never be used for propulsion. So add 20% more battery capacity to offset this degradation (but try to avoid using frequently) and you are still ahead on energy usage.

The ICE also has other downsides, but still has plenty of other benefits as well which the EV can’t compete with (yet). The manufacturers calling for a mixed fuel strategy have it right, and the US and China will keep ICEs in the mix for many decades to come. Good thing for us is in Australia we will see more options than say Europe.

Meanwhile EV and battery technology will continue to improve. Within a decade the technology will change a lot and it will almost be a no-brainer to have at least one EV in our personal fleets.

Now a twin turbo V6 petrol hybrid (PHEV), with a 50km EV range and V2L/V2H capability in a 4WD (either dual cab ute or 5 door wagon) would interest me today.

Being able to do short trips around town on battery only, having the power boost in hybrid mode when accelerating or over-taking, an on-board battery that can be charged off the grid (or ideally used for home solar storage) that is able to power the house for a day, or ability to go off-grid camping for weeks, would be a very nice technology mix.

Then in 10 years time you upgrade the battery to solid state to get 100km EV range, and hope petrol is still affordable when you need the extended range.

[Homestar]

Hello Tombie,

Somewhere I noticed that you have mentioned a Honda EU22i generator. Can you please tell me what you can run on it when there is a complete black out? Cheers

The most important thing is that an EU22 will run my coffee machine. [emoji106]

Beyond that I’m not too fussed. [emoji4]

[DiscoDB]

Hello Tombie,

Somewhere I noticed that you have mentioned a Honda EU22i generator. Can you please tell me what you can run on it when there is a complete black out? Cheers

Good guide here: Generator Sizing Guide (https://generatorstore.com.au/generator-sizing-guide/)

I use the EU22i to run a 385L fridge/freezer, a seperate small portable 65L freezer, lighting, and a pedestal fan during outages in summer.

What I like about the unit is it is fairly quiet.

[Homestar]

Good guide here: Generator Sizing Guide (https://generatorstore.com.au/generator-sizing-guide/)

I use the EU22i to run a 385L fridge/freezer, a seperate small portable 65L freezer, lighting, and a pedestal fan during outages in summer.

What I like about the unit is it is fairly quiet.

That's a perfect use case. Being serious, yes a couple of fridges/freezers as they draw bugger all, some lighting if needed, chargers/computer and a couple of fans would be fine of a 2200. Can also run a microwave if needed or a coffee machine as mentioned - but not all at the same time. My Breville Coffee machine maxes it out. The microwave hits it quite hard too but you'd be able to run your fridges and a microwave at the same time. They are easy to move around as well - the 3KVA Honda is significantly bigger and needs to be on wheels so for most essential items, the 2200 is the go IMO.

[Tombie]

Hello Tombie,

Somewhere I noticed that you have mentioned a Honda EU22i generator. Can you please tell me what you can run on it when there is a complete black out? Cheers

As per other responses, we have a cut over switch on the main board. Conveniently next to the boat.

Tap an extended run time hose to the boat tank…

Then switch house power over and run just the following:
(We have 2 EU22s so pair them if we want more)

Single generator:
- 400l fridge freezer
- TV
- Internet
- 1x ceiling fan
- Instant gas HWS

If we run both linked we can add one of the AC units

[Old Farang]

Thanks for all the replies. I should have been more clear in asking!

I am a qualified industrial electrician and marine engineer and have been around generators all my life. From 32 volt up to 6kV, both as an electrician and chief engineer on ships and oil rigs, and project engineer in the oilfields. I originally served a 5 year apprenticeship as an electrical fitter / armature winder in the days when we repaired everything from electric shavers to big AC motors from the mines. A lot of my working life has been on big variable speed DC drives long before the advent of inverter AC drives.

I asked because of all the misleading rubbish posted by sellers of small generators that do not know the basic difference between KvA and kW's. I just want a small generator as a back up exactly as has been posted, for my house. I tend to believe what Honda claim, as against the endless other ones advertised, plus the reliability. At more than double the price of some of them I would like to be sure that I am not just paying for a nameplate. Cheers

[Tombie]

The Yamaha unit is another good unit

[Homestar]

I’ve used Honda and Yamaha in various Hire fleets - nothing wrong with either but the Hondas are a little more robust. The Yamaha’s were more likely to come back with cosmetic damage and I think the Hondas are a tad quieter. We only use Hondas now, but you couldn’t go wrong with either. They are expensive yes but not overhyped IMO.

They only look expensive because of an all the garbage on the market these days building to a price and not quality.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

A bit of a wake up call in the colder parts of the USA at the moment - Electric vehicle owners face huge challenges amid Chicago cold snap – NBC Chicago (https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/electric-vehicle-owners-face-huge-challenges-amid-chicago-cold-snap/3328085/)

And so much for 'cheaper to run' - https://www.drive.com.au/news/evie-hikes-prices-up-to-40-per-cent/ Using a 150KW charger would now be the same price as running something like a Mazda 3 or equivalent - except the EV costs twice as much to start with so those needing to use public charging aren't clawing back any of the purchase cost any more. Something the EV brigade were touting as one of the biggest benefits... [bigwhistle]

Those calculations are wrong.. at least for me. Even if I "fill" at the most expensive fast charger, and budget on using more than I usually do.. that's 15KWH/100 *.73 = 10.95. Diesel is cheap at the moment - around $2 in my local area. So divide that by 2 and my ICE car would have to use less than 5.4l/100. Consider something as big as a MY and in the absolute worst case for the EV and best case for the ICE you're probably only going to come out similar.

In the real world I tend to use more like 13 kwh/100, and in 7 months of owning the car I've never needed to charge outside the home. So we're about to pass 10,000k at probably 10c/kwh. [thumbsupbig]

I haven't been to a petrol station (or fast charger) since I returned from Birdsville in early October. So the reality is our EV is robbing boring round town miles from the defender, which is $24 per hundred. [thumbsupbig]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I've registered for an Origin deal where if I connect my charger to controlled load I'll pay $8c per kwh. It will mean they will turn my charger off between 5 and 9, but I never charge then anyway. I won't be able to negate solar per se.. but I think it might be better off. So the worst I'll pay is 8c/kwh.

Following on from the above calculation at 15 kwh per hundred, means I'm paying $1.20 per hundred in the EV as opposed to $24 per hundred for the Defender.

EDIT: and whatever you do don't mention the defender maintenance costs. My 10k EV service is moving the tyres front to back. [bigsad]

[Arapiles]

When SA went dark for 4 days, local service stations were running Gensets to keep on pumping.

For added security, many in this town now keep tanks full(ish) or hold reserves in drums.

Ironically?, we also have battery reserves (utilising solar on van etc) to keep instant HWS system running. As well as utilising boat fuel tanks as storage for keeping the good old Honda EU22i running when required.


The Japanese house manufacturers - which include Toyota, by the way - have long sold houses with integrated solar panels, batteries and cars (since it'd always been the case there that you could run the house off the car batteries if you needed to: I'd presumed that was the case here too, but apparently not).

What they found during Fukushima, when the supply lines disintegrated and there was no fuel for ICE vehicles (or heating), was that it was actually the EVs that were more resilient because they were charging them off the roof-top solar and/or house batteries and so they still had transport. That's why a lot of Japanese started going fully solar/electric.

[Arapiles]

As per other responses, we have a cut over switch on the main board. Conveniently next to the boat.

Tap an extended run time hose to the boat tank…

Then switch house power over and run just the following:
(We have 2 EU22s so pair them if we want more)

Single generator:
- 400l fridge freezer
- TV
- Internet
- 1x ceiling fan
- Instant gas HWS

If we run both linked we can add one of the AC units


Yep, a islanding switch is in my planning list too. I've got a Honda EU30i. I presume that it'll run the fridges, some fans and a portable evaporative cooler. On really, really hot days when the power goes off we find that the concrete floors stay cool, so we sleep on them on camping mats with a battery fan going, and the kids happily sleep when it's still 30C+ outside.

Edit: EU30i, not EU30is.

[Homestar]

The Japanese house manufacturers - which include Toyota, by the way - have long sold houses with integrated solar panels, batteries and cars (since it'd always been the case there that you could run the house off the car batteries if you needed to: I'd presumed that was the case here too, but apparently not).

What they found during Fukushima, when the supply lines disintegrated and there was no fuel for ICE vehicles (or heating), was that it was actually the EVs that were more resilient because they were charging them off the roof-top solar and/or house batteries and so they still had transport. That's why a lot of Japanese started going fully solar/electric.

So EV’s will be better after the apocalypse then? That’s cool, I’ll wait until then to buy one. [emoji56]

[NavyDiver]

So EV’s will be better after the apocalypse then? That’s cool, I’ll wait until then to buy one. [emoji56]
Never say never. Fully understand why may do not or cannot use the current ev battery types. [thumbsupbig]


Why electric vehicles struggle in extreme cold - BBC Reel (https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0h5tmjx/why-electric-vehicles-struggle-in-extreme-cold)

This link video explains issue with cold and offered a few ideas on what to do and what not to do.

The slower chemical reaction in Lithium Iron impact on range (25%) and charging speeds was interesting.

My main gripe is range reduction at normal high way speeds. I can drive Melb- Port fairy without charging now. Thats better. What's not is "Range of up to 435km (WLTP)‡" is a lot further than 290ish km to here.

The remaining 10% the other day was not in my view fantastic.

This site suggests solid state are better in cold (https://blog.upsbatterycenter.com/do-solid-state-batteries-like-cold-weather/) "Do Solid-State Battery Electrolytes Like Low Temperatures?

Solid batteries seem set to beat liquid-electrolyte lithium-ion across this dimension. That’s because the solid version does not become sluggish, or freeze in cold weather as liquid electrolyte does. Whereas the ions in lithium-ion batteries slow down considerably, resulting in slower charging and recharging, and reduced capacity.
The commonest lithium-ion battery electrolyte is a lithium-ion salt in an organic solvent. However, solid-state (https://blog.upsbatterycenter.com/impact-of-toyotas-solid-state-batteries/) alternatives open up a wider range of options, including ceramics, polymers, and sulfides. None of these freeze or become sluggish in cold winters, meaning solid-state batteries continue to perform well in icy weather.
But unfortunately this does not mean that these revolutionary batteries are completely immune from winter cold. This is because solid batteries contain more than just electrolytes. They also have temperature-sensitive electrodes (https://blog.upsbatterycenter.com/bipolar-battery-dual-purpose-electrodes/). And moreover, their solid electrolytes become fragile, and that needs more work to resolve too."

Personally I want to see real world result not just claims of course.

FCEV results are a bit better still a big hit "Toyota is reporting impressive ranges for its test fleet. The test vehicles were tested in extreme heat and cold conditions. The company claims there are no major problems with its hydrogen fuel cells (https://managenergy.tv/does-hydrogen-fuel-cell-have-a-future/) vehicles and considers them to be the best option for long-range applications. Further research is needed to confirm that the technology can withstand heavy-duty applications.One study compared hydrogen-powered buses with battery-electric buses in extreme weather conditions. The study found that battery-electric buses lost upto 37 percent of their range when temperatures dropped below five degrees Celsius. In the same conditions, hydrogen-powered buses lost only 23.7%. The study team used data collected from eight US transit agencies, including four that had hydrogen fuel cell buses and four which used battery electric (https://managenergy.tv/what-type-of-batteries-do-electric-bikes-use/) buses." Link (https://managenergy.tv/do-hydrogen-fuel-cells-work-in-cold-weather/#google_vignette)

Of interest runners can run faster when its cooler[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

My biggest hurdle to ever owning an EV is how I'd charge it. Street parking at home and street parking at work. Council are already cracking down on extension leads in trees and across footpaths and we've all been sent a letter saying there will be heavy fines for anyone caught doing this due to public safety concerns. So, short of stopping on my way home from work for a couple of hours to recharge (Fat chance) then I'm walking... I know many in similar situations, so even if we wanted to - how would we make them work?

While I'm probably in the minority there are 100,000 of people in inner city and suburbia in the same situation. In England people are getting chargers put o their front fence and hoping a parking spot in the street is available in front of it when they get home - punch ons have occurred already about 'you're in my spot' issues.

The future's looking so good...

[grey_ghost]

I have probably said this before, and I realise that everyone has different circumstances.

Home - I have solar BUT I can’t pump into the grid as the local infrastructure can’t handle it.
So I either have to buy a home battery system (more money) OR charge during the day when I am at work… Hmm

Winter - we get frosts on a regular basis during winter. Maybe 10-15 a year. The type of frost that means you can’t open your car door..

Work - street parking only. Leave home at 6:30am (still dark in winter). Get home 6:30pm (already dark in winter).

Daily commute - approximately 130km a day if I only go to work and back without any other side trips.

Yearly km - for the last 20 years I have done between 40,000-50,000km a year, NOT including camping trips.

In my situation I can’t see a current EV working, especially considering my home setup.

But I really don’t think that I am on my own - I live approximately 70km from the Melbourne CBD… It’s not like I live in Silverton NSW.

Our local infrastructure is rubbish (no mail delivery, no gas, no street lights, no footpaths, no solar into the grid). We have regular power outages.

I just can’t see how our infrastructure can cope with all of this extra electricity to run EVs…

Let alone route planning and range anxiety. I have never seen all chargers working in our local town. I have never seen all chargers at any given facility - working either..,

[scarry]

I just can’t see how our infrastructure can cope with all of this extra electricity to run EVs… .,


It can’t,without major upgrades.
And that is decades of work,yet alone building whatever to produce the huge amount of power that is needed.

[Arapiles]

[bighmmm]
I have probably said this before, and I realise that everyone has different circumstances.

Home - I have solar BUT I can’t pump into the grid as the local infrastructure can’t handle it.
So I either have to buy a home battery system (more money) OR charge during the day when I am at work… Hmm

Winter - we get frosts on a regular basis during winter. Maybe 10-15 a year. The type of frost that means you can’t open your car door..

Work - street parking only. Leave home at 6:30am (still dark in winter). Get home 6:30pm (already dark in winter).

Daily commute - approximately 130km a day if I only go to work and back without any other side trips.

Yearly km - for the last 20 years I have done between 40,000-50,000km a year, NOT including camping trips.

In my situation I can’t see a current EV working, especially considering my home setup.

But I really don’t think that I am on my own - I live approximately 70km from the Melbourne CBD… It’s not like I live in Silverton NSW.

Our local infrastructure is rubbish (no mail delivery, no gas, no street lights, no footpaths, no solar into the grid). We have regular power outages.

I just can’t see how our infrastructure can cope with all of this extra electricity to run EVs…

Let alone route planning and range anxiety. I have never seen all chargers working in our local town. I have never seen all chargers at any given facility - working either..,


On our farm we were using horses for ploughing and harvesting up until the end of WW2. Not all step-changes occur evenly or quickly, but they do occur.

The funny thing about it is that in my mothers lifetime she'll see our farm go from having no electricity to generating its own electricity to being connected to a grid to going back to mostly generating its own power, because distributed generation is actually more resilient than the networks we've built.

[scarry]

This was in the media.

Blind Freddy could see it was going to happen.
I think they will eventually take over many vehicle models,not just EVs.


Elon Musk, Tesla's CEO, highlighted the formidable strength of Chinese electric automakers, warning that without trade barriers, they could dominate globally. He specifically cited BYD's surpassing Tesla's EV sales and expanding into Europe, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East. This development, coupled with Tesla's projected lower growth in 2023, signals a major shift in the EV market dynamics.

[Tins]

This was in the media.

Blind Freddy could see it was going to happen.
I think they will eventually take over many vehicle models,not just EVs.


Elon Musk, Tesla's CEO, highlighted the formidable strength of Chinese electric automakers, warning that without trade barriers, they could dominate globally. He specifically cited BYD's surpassing Tesla's EV sales and expanding into Europe, Southeast Asia, and the Middle East. This development, coupled with Tesla's projected lower growth in 2023, signals a major shift in the EV market dynamics.

I just hope their export models are less incendiary than the domestic ones.....

[V8Ian]

Musk is looking for legislation that enables him to rip his customers off. Fast charging, an expensive, extra, recurring subscription. What else will be extra, every year?
BMW have gone down this route, heated seats and many other options only available as an extra anual cost. Seems nobody ticks the blinker box.

[Tombie]

Musk is looking for legislation that enables him to rip his customers off. Fast charging, an expensive, extra, recurring subscription. What else will be extra, every year?
BMW have gone down this route, heated seats and many other options only available as an extra anual cost. Seems nobody ticks the blinker box.

BMW has retracted it. [emoji41]

[Tombie]

It can’t,without major upgrades.
And that is decades of work,yet alone building whatever to produce the huge amount of power that is needed.

No rush, in a mining forum, the amount of minerals needed will require so many new mines to open up they cannot even remotely begin to meet the forecasted demand.

[scarry]

No rush, in a mining forum, the amount of minerals needed will require so many new mines to open up they cannot even remotely begin to meet the forecasted demand.

Good point,i wonder how many have thought of that?

What about finding the people to actually do the work?

Workers, no matter what the industry, are extremely difficult to find now,particularly ones that actually know what they are doing in their particular field.

[V8Ian]

BMW has retracted it. [emoji41]
The blinker option? [wink11][bigrolf]

[Homestar]

[bighmmm]


On our farm we were using horses for ploughing and harvesting up until the end of WW2. Not all step-changes occur evenly or quickly, but they do occur.



And all that changed and the world we live in is ALL because of the internal combustion engine. Love it or hate it we’d still be in the dark ages without it. There isn’t a single other invention that has changed the world so much or allowed us the freedom and leisure that we are afforded now - period.

ICE has never had the doubters, sceptics or science proving it is a dumb idea like EV’s has. Your farm has changed dramatically over only a few generations - thank ICE for that, EV’s themselves wouldn’t exist without ICE vehicles.

Again I’ll get labeled as an EV hater but I’m not, they have a great role to play in a mix of different power options in the future but I can’t stomach anyone that uses this argument - it just doesn’t add up.

Sorry - rant over.

[scarry]

The blinker option? [wink11][bigrolf]

No need to tick that box as they forget to top up the fluid anyway.[bigrolf]

[Homestar]

The blinker option? [wink11][bigrolf]

I didn’t even think they came with blinkers…

[Xtreme]

I didn’t even think they came with blinkers…

In my experience, most people who buy EV's already have 'blinkers' themselves! :o

[RANDLOVER]

I have come across a few entitled Tesla drivers who think as they are saving the planet, they can hog the righthand lane on the freeway and one who thought speed limits didn't apply to him, I watched him zoom along for miles of rolling hills on the way to my place one night.

[Tombie]

I have come across a few entitled Tesla drivers who think as they are saving the planet, they can hog the righthand lane on the freeway and one who thought speed limits didn't apply to him, I watched him zoom along for miles of rolling hills on the way to my place one night.

Umm……[emoji3166]

If he was Zooming that quick, wouldn’t you have lost sight of him very quickly?

Or were you zooming also? (Tic)

I know when I’m zooming, nothing behind me is visible in about 90 seconds [emoji41]

[Arapiles]

And all that changed and the world we live in is ALL because of the internal combustion engine. Love it or hate it we’d still be in the dark ages without it. There isn’t a single other invention that has changed the world so much or allowed us the freedom and leisure that we are afforded now - period.

ICE has never had the doubters, sceptics or science proving it is a dumb idea like EV’s has. Your farm has changed dramatically over only a few generations - thank ICE for that, EV’s themselves wouldn’t exist without ICE vehicles.

Again I’ll get labeled as an EV hater but I’m not, they have a great role to play in a mix of different power options in the future but I can’t stomach anyone that uses this argument - it just doesn’t add up.

Sorry - rant over.


You don't like horses? They were big manly ones, if that helps.

[Homestar]

You don't like horses? They were big manly ones, if that helps.

All good - I like horses. I eat McDonalds…

[NavyDiver]

I have come across a few entitled Tesla drivers who think as they are saving the planet, they can hog the righthand lane on the freeway and one who thought speed limits didn't apply to him, I watched him zoom along for miles of rolling hills on the way to my place one night.


Edit a few entitled Tesla drivers who think as they are saving the planet, they can hog the righthand lane on the freeway and one who thought speed (High Speed and far too slow speed) limits didn't apply to him /Her, He, She, It, I, They, Us, Moi [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

I had 20 odd cars behind me for a while until an overtaking place got me past a VIP at 65 in a 100kph road. That kind of tail is not my favorite place[bigwhistle]
Another 1000km+ of low cost yet not making the [B]Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure (WLTP)
range[bighmmm]
Hit the Western end of the Great Ocean road on the way home. Big head spin as Loch Ard Gorge steps are no longer. Apparently a million plus people on old wooden stairs was not considered safe[wink11] It was well hidden and had to ask a tour guide to see if I was going nuts. Had my kids down on the beach not that long ago. I would need my boat to get them their now.

[Arapiles]

All good - I like horses. I eat McDonalds…

Oh, and in that case you like cats.

[Tins]

I wonder where these (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/) will end up? This is but one location, btw.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

My biggest hurdle to ever owning an EV is how I'd charge it. Street parking at home and street parking at work. Council are already cracking down on extension leads in trees and across footpaths and we've all been sent a letter saying there will be heavy fines for anyone caught doing this due to public safety concerns. So, short of stopping on my way home from work for a couple of hours to recharge (Fat chance) then I'm walking... I know many in similar situations, so even if we wanted to - how would we make them work?

While I'm probably in the minority there are 100,000 of people in inner city and suburbia in the same situation. In England people are getting chargers put o their front fence and hoping a parking spot in the street is available in front of it when they get home - punch ons have occurred already about 'you're in my spot' issues.

The future's looking so good...
This is a real problem. EV's offer less benefits over ICE if you can't charge at home. And it's OK to say "It's not going to work for me at this point".

At this point though it's ok to focus on people who can charge at home. There are 10.9 million dwellings in Australia and 21.3 million vehicles. Even if only half the houses are suitable for home charging, that's probably 10 million vehicles that would have access to home charging. At the moment there is still less than 200,000 EV's on Australia's roads. Let's focus on the easy wins.

It's likely in years to come that there will be more options for people who can't charge at home.

[Homestar]

This is a real problem. EV's offer less benefits over ICE if you can't charge at home. And it's OK to say "It's not going to work for me at this point".

At this point though it's ok to focus on people who can charge at home. There are 10.9 million dwellings in Australia and 21.3 million vehicles. Even if only half the houses are suitable for home charging, that's probably 10 million vehicles that would have access to home charging. At the moment there is still less than 200,000 EV's on Australia's roads. Let's focus on the easy wins.

It's likely in years to come that there will be more options for people who can't charge at home.

Well said - if only there was that much sense going around (on both sides) of this conversation.

[V8Ian]

https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw'si=HA6H2sIkbsynJFM5

[prelude]

hear hear. Harry has put the finger on most issues with EV's. I guess these are the cowboy years of EV's. Just like the ICE has had. It took a long long time before 6 digit tamper proof ODOmeters came around and even mandatory. We need this exact legislation for batteries. When an ICE has been trashed it usually shows in the engine, not so with a BEV. On the other hand, with warranty's as they are you will find out soon enough so... maybe?

Most governments will not be in any hurry though since that would mean the net result would be that BEV's are just not a good deal, for your pocket or environment (and no I am not just talking CO2, I should make that my signature: when I talk about environment I do not just mean CO2 :P)

-P

[Homestar]

Didn’t know if this should be here or in funny pics. [emoji56]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240212/9ad0fd841252d838e3219a890c659b29.jpg

[Tins]

Didn’t know if this should be here or in funny pics. [emoji56]

Both!! That's going straight to the pool room

[Tins]

I know he's a bit too anti, but this one is interesting. Should have happened years ago.


https://youtu.be/gXwFL20EB5M'si=FSpTiLp39b5jrVY0

[prelude]

If anyone is looking for the sheet mentioned in Harry's video:

TB test results - Google Sheets (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=1865415711)

Has some nice real life data in it regarding EV's.

-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I know he's a bit too anti, but this one is interesting. Should have happened years ago.


https://youtu.be/gXwFL20EB5M'si=FSpTiLp39b5jrVY0

I didn't bother watching it. Anyone who thinks EV's are "zero emission" is delusional anyway.

What we really need people to do is to stop driving everywhere. Live locally, catch PT, ride, walk. Unfortunately we've poured soo many resources into making cars irresistible that no surprise, we're not getting enough volunteers for the better choices. Yes this won't work for everyone but it's early days yet.

So EV's are better than ICE. That's what we're going for. EV's unlike ICE will continue to get lower emissions as our grid becomes more renewable. That's why the longer we delay the transition the harder it's going to be to hit targets, and the more likely hood that we will have to take measures to actively discourage ICE at some point (sorry).

As an example - I live in a big city. There are lots of transport options. In general the three drivers in this household can use one car. If I need to go to the shops and the car is away I just take the ebike. When I'm in the office I ride. Short trip to the shops for bread and milk.. even the wife now takes the ebike as it's quicker. My kid rides to school (9k return, more if sport) every day. Anyway the upshot is our EV is doing all the city driving. In 8 months of ownership it's never needed to be charged out of the house, and the defender sits at home on charge. It's done 400k since I got back from the Simpson in early Oct - including a week in bribie and a trip to MR. That's right - I haven't been to a servo since we passed through Toowoomba on the way home nearly five months ago, and it's still got half a tank left.

I know this won't work for everyone - often for reasons that are real and not easily changed. But I'm also convinced that many people could try somewhat harder. I acknowledge that that's not a popular opinion, but we're going to have to confront it sometime. In the meantime we need to make it attractive to make better choices.

[Homestar]

Yay, let's all live in the city and make the crowding and pollution worse!!! [biggrin] Couldn't think of anything worse myself but each to their own. If we all have to face this inevitable future people speak of let's just hope they put a bus service in (Electric of course) to the millions of Australians that don't have one, let alone multiple public transport options. When I was younger I lived in a Country town that had one bus a day go to the biggest local town (1/2 hour away) and one back. It left at 7.30am and got back at 5.30pm - not ideal to do the shopping run. 40 years later that town has tripled in size and guess what - it still has the same bus service - once a day in and out. I'd imagine this story could be repeated countless times across Australia. Cities get all the money and the Country is left with bugger all - much less per person than any spending that happens in any Capital City. That bus by the way is a smoke belching 20 year old clapped out POS with some guy that's 5 years past retirement is driving until one or both die.

Sorry, short rant over but you see my point - what options do so many have apart from ICE? Not just those without driveways but those that live in Rural areas, don't have public transport, don't have much money - I know whole areas where if you see a car newer than 10 years old you think it's been stolen - we're leaving too many behind in this mad rush IMO.

As for zero emissions - the media is bad for perpetuating this myth - just google zero emission EV and see how many Muppets there are on Youtube sprouting this garbage.

[DiscoDB]

Not sure I would call it a myth, more of a misunderstanding on the meaning.

The term Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) first came into accepted usage in 1990 when the California Air Resources Board defined a Zero Emissions Vehicle as one which produces zero emissions when driven to meet tailpipe standards for air quality, and as part of these regulations they defined battery electric vehicles as being zero emission vehicles.

Of course the issue is today it’s meaning when used in advertising implies more than just zero emissions at the tailpipe.

Interesting most government bodies today still refer to electric vehicles as being Zero Emissions Vehicles, it seems they just don’t like it when car manufacturers use the same term when advertising.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yay, let's all live in the city and make the crowding and pollution worse!!! [biggrin] Couldn't think of anything worse myself but each to their own. If we all have to face this inevitable future people speak of let's just hope they put a bus service in (Electric of course) to the millions of Australians that don't have one, let alone multiple public transport options. When I was younger I lived in a Country town that had one bus a day go to the biggest local town (1/2 hour away) and one back. It left at 7.30am and got back at 5.30pm - not ideal to do the shopping run. 40 years later that town has tripled in size and guess what - it still has the same bus service - once a day in and out. I'd imagine this story could be repeated countless times across Australia. Cities get all the money and the Country is left with bugger all - much less per person than any spending that happens in any Capital City. That bus by the way is a smoke belching 20 year old clapped out POS with some guy that's 5 years past retirement is driving until one or both die.

Sorry, short rant over but you see my point - what options do so many have apart from ICE? Not just those without driveways but those that live in Rural areas, don't have public transport, don't have much money - I know whole areas where if you see a car newer than 10 years old you think it's been stolen - we're leaving too many behind in this mad rush IMO.

As for zero emissions - the media is bad for perpetuating this myth - just google zero emission EV and see how many Muppets there are on Youtube sprouting this garbage.
Everyone in living in the city might make crowding worse, but it's likely to result in less pollution. As in my example - if I lived in a remote area I'm quite confident my family would have to do a lot more driving than we do and would have a higher co2 footprint. But I digress.

Honestly.. this is the issue. People think EV's the end of the world. Which .... they are just cars with batteries instead of ICE. And as I've said over and over. Don't worry about people in the bush, or that have needs for cars that can't be filled by electric cars. Now is not the time. We've got 18 million vehicles on our road, and the manufacturers are sending us 100k EV's a year at the moment. Let's jot that down. 18,000,000/100000 = 180 years. :D Don't stress and let's just try to go for the low hanging fruit first. ICE cars are going to be around long time.

Fun fact for you BTW.. over two thirds of Australians live in capital cities.

So one of my neighbours.. they live 100m from me. He lines up five cars outside his house every day (They have two garages but both are full). Both parents and every kid has a car. The little one they just bought them a highlux to learn to drive on (bless them). Of their five cars, four of them are 4x4's with one Nissan hatchback. All of their cars look shiny and new. None of them show any evidence of ever being used off road. Personally I think their car requirements are all about life choices. I'm pretty sure that probably 4/5 of them could be EV's and even then the only 4x4 thing I've seen evidence of them doing is towing a trailer occasionally (which could probably be done with an EV!). Judging by the property they are living in - cost is not an EV adoption barrier for them. And that's without questioning why every house inhabitant needs a vehicle.

Another neighbour just a few metres away chose to send their kids to a school across town. For which there is no PT. So one of the parents is basically a school shuttle driver for multiple hours a day. Choices.. choices.

This is the kind of thing that I see everywhere in the city. People making life choices to drive. So if that's how they want to play it, let's help them to choose an EV next time. And let's just stop stressing that we're going to take anybody's ICE car off them at any point in the near future.

[JDNSW]

And to offset this picture, consider my son's situation. They have a household of Mum, Dad, four kids, 13-25. Four working, one looking for work. Town has virtually zero public transport, three of the workers are part time and often or largely work outside normal hours. Dad, working normal hours, has a 120km round trip commute. (Same applies for most medical appointments for anyone in the family, and some of the work by two of the others.)

The family cars are a diesel I30, a diesel seven seat Disco 2, a Nissan Micra, a small four door Toyota? and a small two door Toyota (can't think for sure what those two are).

While I have discussed with my son several times getting an EV, and it would make sense for his commute, there are two problems with this solution. Firstly, none of their cars cost more than $10,000, most well under. It will be years before you can buy a worthwhile EV for this sort of money. Secondly, he has now been allowed to work from home two days a week - this has reduced his commuting costs by more than the savings that would be made from an EV.

[Tins]

Interesting most government bodies today still refer to electric vehicles as being Zero Emissions Vehicles, it seems they just don’t like it when car manufacturers use the same term when advertising.

There is no way the Govt or its agencies would have taken a stand unless there had been complaints.

Notwithstanding the origin of the term, current usage is obvious. Seems the punters don't like being lied to.

[DiscoDB]

The car manufacturers are just required to ensure it is clear they are referring to zero emissions when driving.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240222/60076d6f9253e438e48c7c6b5c11f73f.jpg

It’s only the ads which failed to make the qualifier that have been required to withdraw the ad, or could face action by the ACCC.

The legislative terminology still defines zero emissions vehicles as vehicles which emit no emissions when driving, and automakers just need to align with this.

An example of the sort of complaints that can be raised and upheld in favour of the car manufacturer:

https://adstandards.com.au/sites/default/files/reports/0343-21.pdf

Ford zero emission driving claim ‘not’ misleading (https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/ford-zero-emission-driving-claim-not-misleading)

And an example where it was found to be misleading:

BMW pulled up by Advertising Standards Authority over EV 'zero emission' claims (https://www.driving.co.uk/news/business/bmw-pulled-up-by-advertising-standards-authority-over-ev-zero-emission-claims/)

[4bee]

Everyone in living in the city might make crowding worse, but it's likely to result in less pollution. As in my example - if I lived in a remote area I'm quite confident my family would have to do a lot more driving than we do and would have a higher co2 footprint. But I digress.

Honestly.. this is the issue. People think EV's the end of the world. Which .... they are just cars with batteries instead of ICE. And as I've said over and over. Don't worry about people in the bush, or that have needs for cars that can't be filled by electric cars. Now is not the time. We've got 18 million vehicles on our road, and the manufacturers are sending us 100k EV's a year at the moment. Let's jot that down. 18,000,000/100000 = 180 years. :D Don't stress and let's just try to go for the low hanging fruit first. ICE cars are going to be around long time.

Fun fact for you BTW.. over two thirds of Australians live in capital cities.

So one of my neighbours.. they live 100m from me. He lines up five cars outside his house every day (They have two garages but both are full). Both parents and every kid has a car. The little one they just bought them a highlux to learn to drive on (bless them). Of their five cars, four of them are 4x4's with one Nissan hatchback. All of their cars look shiny and new. None of them show any evidence of ever being used off road. Personally I think their car requirements are all about life choices. I'm pretty sure that probably 4/5 of them could be EV's and even then the only 4x4 thing I've seen evidence of them doing is towing a trailer occasionally (which could probably be done with an EV!). Judging by the property they are living in - cost is not an EV adoption barrier for them. And that's without questioning why every house inhabitant needs a vehicle.

Another neighbour just a few metres away chose to send their kids to a school across town. For which there is no PT. So one of the parents is basically a school shuttle driver for multiple hours a day. Choices.. choices.

This is the kind of thing that I see everywhere in the city. People making life choices to drive. So if that's how they want to play it, let's help them to choose an EV next time. And let's just stop stressing that we're going to take anybody's ICE car off them at any point in the near future.

Except if you are a bad'un/hoon & have it confiscated for the Crusher.


"we're leaving too many behind in this mad rush IMO".



And you can see them left by the roadside or Outback as one drives past. Heaps of rusting metal.

Ok Ok, I know what you meant.[smilebigeye]

[4bee]

And to offset this picture, consider my son's situation. They have a household of Mum, Dad, four kids, 13-25. Four working, one looking for work. Town has virtually zero public transport, three of the workers are part time and often or largely work outside normal hours. Dad, working normal hours, has a 120km round trip commute. (Same applies for most medical appointments for anyone in the family, and some of the work by two of the others.)

The family cars are a diesel I30, a diesel seven seat Disco 2, a Nissan Micra, a small four door Toyota? and a small two door Toyota (can't think for sure what those two are).

While I have discussed with my son several times getting an EV, and it would make sense for his commute, there are two problems with this solution. Firstly, none of their cars cost more than $10,000, most well under. It will be years before you can buy a worthwhile EV for this sort of money. Secondly, he has now been allowed to work from home two days a week - this has reduced his commuting costs by more than the savings that would be made from an EV.

At last, a Real Life Story. Thanks John.[bigsmile1]

[Homestar]

Everyone in living in the city might make crowding worse, but it's likely to result in less pollution. As in my example - if I lived in a remote area I'm quite confident my family would have to do a lot more driving than we do and would have a higher co2 footprint. But I digress.

Honestly.. this is the issue. People think EV's the end of the world. Which .... they are just cars with batteries instead of ICE. And as I've said over and over. Don't worry about people in the bush, or that have needs for cars that can't be filled by electric cars. Now is not the time. We've got 18 million vehicles on our road, and the manufacturers are sending us 100k EV's a year at the moment. Let's jot that down. 18,000,000/100000 = 180 years. :D Don't stress and let's just try to go for the low hanging fruit first. ICE cars are going to be around long time.

Fun fact for you BTW.. over two thirds of Australians live in capital cities.

So one of my neighbours.. they live 100m from me. He lines up five cars outside his house every day (They have two garages but both are full). Both parents and every kid has a car. The little one they just bought them a highlux to learn to drive on (bless them). Of their five cars, four of them are 4x4's with one Nissan hatchback. All of their cars look shiny and new. None of them show any evidence of ever being used off road. Personally I think their car requirements are all about life choices. I'm pretty sure that probably 4/5 of them could be EV's and even then the only 4x4 thing I've seen evidence of them doing is towing a trailer occasionally (which could probably be done with an EV!). Judging by the property they are living in - cost is not an EV adoption barrier for them. And that's without questioning why every house inhabitant needs a vehicle.

Another neighbour just a few metres away chose to send their kids to a school across town. For which there is no PT. So one of the parents is basically a school shuttle driver for multiple hours a day. Choices.. choices.

This is the kind of thing that I see everywhere in the city. People making life choices to drive. So if that's how they want to play it, let's help them to choose an EV next time. And let's just stop stressing that we're going to take anybody's ICE car off them at any point in the near future.

No issues with anything you say here but that’s not the issue. The issue is that it seems every Gubment and almost every OEM is scrambling over each other trying to force them down our throat and love them which translates into crowds of Muppets all over the internet telling us the same thing. If those ****wits back off the whole situation would be much easier to accept. I don’t care who owns one but I do care about all the people (and there are lots of them) that tell me I should be driving one and that I’m out of touch, a Boomer, a Luddite or any amount of other slurs because I don’t want one.

They will absolutely work for a percentage of the population who will buy them, love them and make them work without issue but don’t tell the rest of - City Slickers or not, that they need to go buy one. Not you, I’m talking about the media, Gubment, car manufacturers etc.

It should be a choice that shouldn’t be criticised either way. As I’ve said countless times I’m not anti EV and I love all tech, but the physics of everyone owning one don’t add up and there’s still too many heads stuck in the sand to see this.

[Tins]

No issues with anything you say here but that’s not the issue. The issue is that it seems every Gubment and almost every OEM is scrambling over each other trying to force them down our throat and love them which translates into crowds of Muppets all over the internet telling us the same thing. If those ****wits back off the whole situation would be much easier to accept. I don’t care who owns one but I do care about all the people (and there are lots of them) that tell me I should be driving one and that I’m out of touch, a Boomer, a Luddite or any amount of other slurs because I don’t want one.

They will absolutely work for a percentage of the population who will buy them, love them and make them work without issue but don’t tell the rest of - City Slickers or not, that they need to go buy one. Not you, I’m talking about the media, Gubment, car manufacturers etc.

It should be a choice that shouldn’t be criticised either way. As I’ve said countless times I’m not anti EV and I love all tech, but the physics of everyone owning one don’t add up and there’s still too many heads stuck in the sand to see this.

I was in the middle of writing a long post when I read this. Says what I want to say just fine. Thanks, Gav.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No issues with anything you say here but that’s not the issue. The issue is that it seems every Gubment and almost every OEM is scrambling over each other trying to force them down our throat and love them which translates into crowds of Muppets all over the internet telling us the same thing. If those ****wits back off the whole situation would be much easier to accept. I don’t care who owns one but I do care about all the people (and there are lots of them) that tell me I should be driving one and that I’m out of touch, a Boomer, a Luddite or any amount of other slurs because I don’t want one.

They will absolutely work for a percentage of the population who will buy them, love them and make them work without issue but don’t tell the rest of - City Slickers or not, that they need to go buy one. Not you, I’m talking about the media, Gubment, car manufacturers etc.

It should be a choice that shouldn’t be criticised either way. As I’ve said countless times I’m not anti EV and I love all tech, but the physics of everyone owning one don’t add up and there’s still too many heads stuck in the sand to see this.

I'm glad you're starting to understand my opinion on this. [bigsmile1]

We are a long way from forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to. As I've said over and over I understand that there is a very solid portion of Austrlians for whom an EV is at this point unsuitable - or for whom there would be some adjustment required to own one.

As I've stated two thirds of Australians live in major capital cities. What if 50% could own one?

The answer to that is WHO CARES! The supply of EV's is so small relative to our 18 million vehicles. Even if we bought 100% EV's this year it's going to take 18 years to replace all the vehicles. And that of course doesn't account for attrition etc.

So my position is - if an EV isn't right for you that's fine. If you don't like EV's because you just like burning stuff that's fine too! I genuinely don't care because it doesn't matter and why make people unhappy.

My position is - if you genuinely think you need a new car (best environmental outcome is probably to drive what you have) then you should have access to resources to help you make a decision based on facts and not FUD. If people can make an EV work for them then please do. Because every ICE car we put on our roads is a commitment to continue with that for the life of the vehicle.

This all comes down to behaviour change. We do need people to transition to EV if we're going to meet our climate targets. For the health and well being of our cities we need people to back off on SUV ownership too as it's not helping.

So the best way of doing this is to encourage people to make the right choices by making them the best choice if that makes sense. I think in years to come you'll find that people will choose EV's not on idealogical grounds - but simply because it's the most pragmatic choice.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

And to offset this picture, consider my son's situation. They have a household of Mum, Dad, four kids, 13-25. Four working, one looking for work. Town has virtually zero public transport, three of the workers are part time and often or largely work outside normal hours. Dad, working normal hours, has a 120km round trip commute. (Same applies for most medical appointments for anyone in the family, and some of the work by two of the others.)

The family cars are a diesel I30, a diesel seven seat Disco 2, a Nissan Micra, a small four door Toyota? and a small two door Toyota (can't think for sure what those two are).

While I have discussed with my son several times getting an EV, and it would make sense for his commute, there are two problems with this solution. Firstly, none of their cars cost more than $10,000, most well under. It will be years before you can buy a worthwhile EV for this sort of money. Secondly, he has now been allowed to work from home two days a week - this has reduced his commuting costs by more than the savings that would be made from an EV.
Hey that's to be applauded. Keeping what you have is good. Small cars are good. Driving less is best!

There will be affordable usable EV's in the next few years - there aren't many at the moment.

[Old Farang]

As I've stated two thirds of Australians live in major capital cities. What if 50% could own one?

The answer to that is: an immediate melt down of the power grid!

Not sure about the eastern states, but here in WA a couple of hot days brings the grid to its knees! Leave out fires, floods and climate change, which is already having an affect!

[prelude]

I am pretty sure there is a use for EV's in certain situations. I think there was a market for that for many decades already, though nobody wanted a lead acid powered vehicle (though I think they could have been a bit more zippy using modern inverter technology). I do agree though that there is "never" (as in not before I am eligible for my pension) going to be enough resources to get 100% electric vehicles on the road usefully. The power grid in my very western, very densely populated and very modern country has never bee so unreliable in my living memory and prices have never been this high (accounting for inflation).

As an aside, I do not get it really. We have all been forced out of the most recyclable light source (incandescent) to bloody LED's which use around a tenth of the power so we should have massive amounts of power surplus but in stead we are all bouncing into the power stations rev-limiters?

As for driving less. The government down here is completely incompetent, as they all are, since during covid it was proven that working from home is feasible at least for a large group of workers. But, covid rules are gone and the traffic jams are through the roof once again. I would think with more people working from home there would be less traffic and indeed, IF Co2 is your greatest concern somehow then make people travel less. Not by limiting their movement but by fining business if they let their workers drive to a location where they do not NEED to be. It seems that many a company just wants everyone back in their fancy office which is on an expensive location where it does not need to be, in the middle of a city where parking is impossible etc etc. I the employee do not have any power over that. I reckon that would do WAY more than just pushing that EV stuff.

-P

[NavyDiver]

China ev power used to recharge existing EV transport was 6 Terawatt hours, Tesla 4 terawatt hours + UK/EU slower and we are tiny still.


About minute 26 for those numbers in link at bottom.

While EV growth will remain subdued until the new solid state batteries arrive next year (Quantumscape roll out may be first in 2025 (https://www.quantumscape.com/)) Panasonic and CAYTL chasing hard. Yesterday I saw "CATL, BYD, others unite in China for solid-state battery breakthrough (https://kr-asia.com/catl-byd-others-unite-in-china-for-solid-state-battery-breakthrough)



IF QS 2025 time frame is correct, I flip my current New little EV for a Beast I can tow my boat with and charge in 5 minutes very soon! That needs 350kWh chargers or better! Around here and at home I can still find 7kWh chargers. They are fine for overnight charging of course. Anyone remember records, tape, CD, Blueray, minidisk, USB music players[biggrin][biggrin] evolution is happening fast in front of us now!https://hotcopper.com.au/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png

EV, AI Data Centre's, Electric arc furnace and simply giving many billions of people who have almost no reliable power supplies will more than quadruple current total world power demands. [B]The only way to achieve that is Nuclear Power.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/25xilKWUx25XdTtDBCXrOr'si=48c1d34d5e0d4571

[Tins]

As for driving less. The government down here is completely incompetent, as they all are, since during covid it was proven that working from home is feasible at least for a large group of workers.

-P

Yes... except that for so many people the mental healthy issues caused by social isolation will have ramifications for decades. So, as a solution it is not ideal.

Funny, the pilot strike in Aus in 1989 showed big mobs that interstate conferences could, even in those low tech times, be held by video. Didn't take long for the execs etc to get back on planes afterwards.

[Tins]

In case you missed it ( I did ), Apple has ditched its Project Titan after 10 years. They apparently also ditched their goals to have a 100% EV fleet by 2026.

[scarry]

In case you missed it ( I did ), Apple has ditched its Project Titan after 10 years. They apparently also ditched their goals to have a 100% EV fleet by 2026.

Following the recent trends of others.
I wonder if Jag will be EV only by 2025,as per their announcement?
Their sales are pretty dismal anyway,so i can’t see going to only EV would be any benefit at all.

[Tins]

Following the recent trends of others.
I wonder if Jag will be EV only by 2025,as per their announcement?
Their sales are pretty dismal anyway,so i can’t see going to only EV would be any benefit at all.

Said it on here a few years back. They're heading into a cul de sac. Crazy burning bridges IMO. All those decades of R&D wasted.

[NavyDiver]

In case you missed it ( I did ), Apple has ditched its Project Titan after 10 years. They apparently also ditched their goals to have a 100% EV fleet by 2026.

What's 10 billion between ????? thats roughly what apple put in to the Self Driving fail[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Add the 2 billion ish fine the other day by EU over music streaming and a multi day share price hole and its an ouch for your super fund[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[Tins]

What's 10 billion between ????? thats roughly what apple put in to the Self Driving fail[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Add the 2 billion ish fine the other day by EU over music streaming and a multi day share price hole and its an ouch for your super fund[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

It's like the $70 Billion Goggle dropped on the Gemini debacle. Drop in the ocean to , who measure their value in $ Trillions.

[NavyDiver]

It's like the $70 Billion Goggle dropped on the Gemini debacle. Drop in the ocean to , who measure their value in $ Trillions.

LOOK AFTER THE PENNIES AND THE POUNDS WILL LOOK AFTER THEMSELVES[bigwhistle]

[Tins]

You were saying????

Ouch! (https://splash247.com/mol-and-allianz-take-volkswagen-to-court-over-sinking-of-felicity-ace-car-carrier/)

Does VW still have any money to pay for this? And will shipping companies keep carrying EVs? Insurers keep underwriting them?

[prelude]

Perhaps I am missing something, the hype-train no doubt, but aren't solid-state batteries STILL just lithium, but with a solid electrolyte? I guess they will do less of the explody thing and yes they might have a higher energy density as well but It still requires the same massive amount of lithium... that we don't have and are not going to have for the foreseeable future.

This new battery still does nothing (not much) to solve the problem of producing all that stuff in time? Also, it does very little to nothing concerning the environmental impacts of using lithium.

-P

[Tins]

Indeed. And the "advantages" seem to be less capacity loss per cycle. So, your fuel tank still gets smaller, only not quite so fast. Oh, and reportedly reduced fire risk... I'm not jumping for joy yet. Neither are the kids chained to the mines.

[NavyDiver]

Two bits of news. First in new school using the current flawed battery tech.
2024 Range Rover Electric teased as pre-orders open

800V architecture, 850mm wading depth, V8-like performance and silent drive confirmed for first Range Rover EV Jaguar Land Rover (https://www.carsales.com.au/land-rover/?__source=editorialArticle&driver_crosssell=editorial.in.article.link) (JLR) Australia has started taking pre-orders for the upcoming 2024 Range Rover Electric (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/jlr-confirms-range-rover-ev-on-way-126311/?__source=editorialArticle&driver_crosssell=editorial.in.article.link) as the first pre-production prototypes hit the road for real-world testing.
Underpinned by the Modular Longitudinal Architecture (MLA platform), the Range Rover Electric is said to be the “quietest and most refined Range Rover ever created” and it will offer similar performance and off-road capability to the established V8 variants.
A key component of the real-world development will be extreme weather testing in Sweden and Dubai, where the big luxury off-roader will be subject to temperatures approaching -40 degrees at one end of the scale and up to 50 degrees at the other.
Engineers say they’re eager to ensure the “robustness of the electric drive system, including its underfloor, battery durability, chassis integrity and vehicle dynamics” can survive in even the most extreme climates and conditions.

Oder NOT placed[thumbsupbig] untill news 2 gets into them[thumbsupbig]

Second is WIDE and game changing coming for me to tow my boat and soon to add caravan paid for via investments in this tech.

Hit a 350kWh charger yesterday. It would in 5 minutes give 400km range when I have my quantumscape, SDI, CYTAL or Panasonic solid states :) My MG is old school tec and could only take 150kWh. A quick phone call had it charged over 50% in Taylors lake. I had just driven from Port Fairy to Ballarat and did need a little kick to get home.


SDI 2027[B]Battery heavyweights reaffirm commitment to solid-state technology

Only weeks after Chinese battery and car manufacturers united as part of a government-led initiative to commercialize solid-state battery technology, South Korea’s Samsung SDI has confirmed its readiness to start mass production of its all-solid-state battery technology with an energy density of 900 Wh/L South Korea’s Samsung SDI is moving toward mass production of its all-solid-state battery technology with an energy density of 900 Wh/L. This week, the company is unveiling a technology roadmap at the InterBattery show in Seoul.
The document will demonstrate that every aspect of its plan for mass producing all solid-state batteries in 2027 is well on track, from development production line project launch to supply chain management, Samsung SDI said in a statement. link (https://www.pv-magazine.com/2024/03/06/battery-heavyweights-reaffirm-commitment-to-solid-state-technology/)





According to remarks from Gill Pratt, Toyota's chief scientist and head of the Toyota Research Institute, we're going to see such a battery from the automaker by 2025. (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/toyota-solid-state-battery-ev/#google_vignette)


From SDI Link "CATL, BYD and Toyota, Samsung’s solid-state technology is based on sulfide-based solid electrolytes, which have the highest lithium ion conductivity compared to other solid state electrolytes. All solid-state batteries developed by Samsung SDI stand out for their anode-less configuration which is said to offer improved performance compared to devices featuring lithium metal anode and solid electrolyte."



3rd bit may suggest the decline of EV is over blown [bigrolf] The American electric vehicle (EV) sector is undergoing a significant transformation. Recent trends indicate concerns about a potential slowdown in EV adoption, but the reality is quite the opposite. EV sales have reached historic milestones, with the data reflecting a natural progression toward market maturity—not a stall.
In the third quarter of 2023, electric and plug-in hybrid vehicle sales in the U.S. showcased the strongest year-on-year growth since late 2021 and maintained a robust 60% annual growth rate (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/q3-2023-ev-sales/) over the past six quarters. This culminated in a historic moment in 2023: U.S. BEV car sales exceeded 1 million sales (https://www.strategyand.pwc.com/de/en/industries/automotive/electric-vehicle-sales-review-2023-q4.html) in a single year for the first time.

More energy, 1/3 size and weight. I could be wrong of course. Only a trillion or two investments in this tech over the last ten years


Silicon/Graphite anode is a maybe. Hazer graphite ??? [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]2025!
LINK (https://www.quantumscape.com/technology/)

[Homestar]

So with just over 1% of the vehicles on the road in the USA being EV’s they’re reaching market maturity? Hmmm.

[DiscoDB]

I think the quote was “a natural progression toward market maturity”.

Market maturity is when sales reach equilibrium and the rate of growth is minimal. With EV sales at 7-8% of new cars in the US, I can imagine EV’s to hit equilibrium in the US at around 20% in the next 5-10 years.

By then this would be a mature market for the US - at least for the next 10-20 years or so, and would fall short of the projections of 30% by 2030. California will be the exception to this and is well on track to exceed 30% of sales before 2030.

Hybrids are the market which is showing the most growth and has a way to go before it too starts to approach market maturity. For EVs to surpass the sales of PHEVs will need a major shift in battery technology, which may happen sooner than we think.

[4bee]

I am pretty sure there is a use for EV's in certain situations. I think there was a market for that for many decades already, though nobody wanted a lead acid powered vehicle (though I think they could have been a bit more zippy using modern inverter technology). I do agree though that there is "never" (as in not before I am eligible for my pension) going to be enough resources to get 100% electric vehicles on the road usefully. The power grid in my very western, very densely populated and very modern country has never bee so unreliable in my living memory and prices have never been this high (accounting for inflation).

As an aside, I do not get it really. We have all been forced out of the most recyclable light source (incandescent) to bloody LED's which use around a tenth of the power so we should have massive amounts of power surplus but in stead we are all bouncing into the power stations rev-limiters?

As for driving less. The government down here is completely incompetent, as they all are, since during covid it was proven that working from home is feasible at least for a large group of workers. But, covid rules are gone and the traffic jams are through the roof once again. I would think with more people working from home there would be less traffic and indeed, IF Co2 is your greatest concern somehow then make people travel less. Not by limiting their movement but by fining business if they let their workers drive to a location where they do not NEED to be. It seems that many a company just wants everyone back in their fancy office which is on an expensive location where it does not need to be, in the middle of a city where parking is impossible etc etc. I the employee do not have any power over that. I reckon that would do WAY more than just pushing that EV stuff.

-P

Lets see how it goes doing the Darian Gap one day, like the good olde boys did way back. [bighmmm][bawl]

[Tins]

Lets see how it goes doing the Darian Gap one day, like the good olde boys did way back. [bighmmm][bawl]

Aah, an incentive! Belt and Road, anyone?

[Tins]

This vid is a little annoying, taking too long to get to the real point, but he has some interesting news re his EV. This is not a cheap car, it's a Porsche.


https://youtu.be/77Yo4LpksWM'si=TLbMVza7fVkfWnxu

[Homestar]

For EVs to surpass the sales of PHEVs will need a major shift in battery technology, which may happen sooner than we think.

According to the actual science, battery tech improvements seem to be heading at an incremental level, not great leaps.

Based on how batteries work I’m sceptical there will be an improvement in one hit that was like when we first saw lithium hit the market.

Mind you - I would LOVE to be proved wrong on this one, we can’t keep up at work with large batteries (60 to 125KWH BESS units for building sites) but I’ve got my realists hat on at the moment.

[DiscoDB]

According to the actual science, battery tech improvements seem to be heading at an incremental level, not great leaps.

Based on how batteries work I’m sceptical there will be an improvement in one hit that was like when we first saw lithium hit the market.

Mind you - I would LOVE to be proved wrong on this one, we can’t keep up at work with large batteries (60 to 125KWH BESS units for building sites) but I’ve got my realists hat on at the moment.

Fully agree - I expect it will be 2030 before that rate of incremental improvement on current battery technology reaches a point where EVs become a viable alternative for the majority of passenger vehicles - not just those that can live with the current limitations.

This also lines up with when we may see Solid State batteries are commercialised, but by then the current battery tech may be as good anyway. So still win-win.

What I do know is a lot of very smart people with well funded R&D projects are working on this.

By 2030 the EV market will be a mature market, but probably limited to 20% of new car sales in Australia and the US, and it won’t be until 2040 we see any real growth to start significantly displacing ICE and PHEV sales.

Expect to hear the phrase “slow start fast finish” more when it comes to how people sell the transition away from fossil fuels for transportation.

[Tombie]

Thailand was an eye opener after a 5 year hiatus.

Grab (Uber type service) is huge and I would estimate 50% of them were EV.

Given electricity prices are dirt cheap, CFPS are everywhere, distances travelled are short and the consistent climate means no Cold issues - I’d say they are a perfect use case.

Not a lot of Public charge points to be found, as said, most run local only. Doing 150km before taking a break and having food whilst they charge at home.

[spudfan]

Over here a 5 seat 2.0 litre petrol PHEV will cost you €150 road tax per year because it is considered a "green" option due to the batteries in it.
A 3.0 litre diesel with 8 seats will cost you €2,400 road tax per year yet you will get more milage from it than the 2.0 litre PHEV in petrol mode.
The battery range given for the 2.0 litre phev is stated between 50-60 km which one motoring journalist said was "optimistc".
Modern diesel are exceptionally clean due to all of the emissions control systems fitted to them. Makes them complicated but I think over all they are "greener" than the PHEV which I think is a gimmick.
On another note, issues have been reported with Chinese built electric BYD vehicles. Some issues like the scratches and mould could happen to any manufacturer during transit but the warping under the weight of roof racks seems to indicate a design flaw.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/byd-s-quality-problems-hit-international-markets-report/ar-BB1jMnBY?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=65920ae244664635a2eb7b523fcbc8f6&ei=34

[Tins]

On another note, issues have been reported with Chinese built electric BYD vehicles.

Oh really? You surprise me.😎 There are reports almost daily about Chines EVs, from BYD to Tesla, far too many to attempt to list them here.

The Tesla ones mainly concern price cutting due to very slow sales, although fires are also reported. The BYD and other big Chines brand cars, not so much. Sure, they are discounting, or even closing their doors, but the horror stories of build quality and outright life threatening design issues abound.

BYD is apparently going to build a factory in Mexico. Perhaps quality will improve.....😆 Although, with the increasingly likely change in the White House come November I'm not sure it's a good move, strategically. At least, not if they're hoping on easier access to the US market. If you believe goggle then maybe they want to to take advantage of the bullish predictions on sales in Brazil. Given China is building large sectors of the power distribution infrastructure there maybe they've got some "advantages". Still, Brazil has massive hydro power, so it could work well, at least in São Paulo.

Whether they build them in Ciudad Juárez orChongqing, I'm not touching one. There are quite literally square miles of land taken up with estimated hundreds of thousands of abandoned, brand new EVs in China. Who knows how they will offload those?

[spudfan]

From BBC news. Seems the fifth largest smartphone maker is to launch it's own electric car in a few weeks.

[Tins]

Hmm... Not strictly EV related, but it's mostly EVs doing it currently. Bloke in the US had his insurance cost increased by around 20%, based on data his Chevy Volt sent to GM, who then on-sold the data to the insurers via LexisNexis. Tesla has been accused of the same practice. Bloke in question is a 65 yo businessman with a good driving record.

I can't possibly link to the vid I am referencing.

Bear in mind, there's a huge Bill they are trying to force through over there. Hidden away in that Bill is the little snippet that all new cars after 2026 will require a remote kill switch.... Who gets to control that? Social Credit Score, coming to a car near you.

And Xiaomi are going to make cars? Great. Huawei next?

[4bee]

Couldn't find a suitable thread to put the below pic in, so starting a new one that anything EV related can go in.

Was wondering when I parked behind this Tesla what it may be towing...151476

You if he/she reverse a bit hard & jams that ball under your bumper or what goes for a bumper these days. [bighmmm] [bigrolf]

[4bee]

Hmm... Not strictly EV related, but it's mostly EVs doing it currently. Bloke in the US had his insurance cost increased by around 20%, based on data his Chevy Volt sent to GM, who then on-sold the data to the insurers via LexisNexis. Tesla has been accused of the same practice. Bloke in question is a 65 yo businessman with a good driving record.

I can't possibly link to the vid I am referencing.

Bear in mind, there's a huge Bill they are trying to force through over there. Hidden away in that Bill is the little snippet that all new cars after 2026 will require a remote kill switch.... Who gets to control that? Social Credit Score, coming to a car near you.

And Xiaomi are going to make cars? Great. Huawei next?



or Gladys Sym Choon. google it. She also introduced Fireworks but they don't mention that.[bighmmm]Gladys Sym Choon | Adelaidia (https://adelaidia.history.sa.gov.au/people/gladys-sym-choon)

[Tins]

Was wondering when I parked behind this Tesla what it may be towing...

A generator, perhaps?