EV general discussion

[scarry]

The Boss has an LC200 which is around 3 years old - top spec and immaculate. He was just offered $10K more than he paid for it - as a trade in for a 300. He declined. It was in for a scheduled service and the Sales Manager came out to see him when he picked it up.

Same here,although ours is not top spec.Been asked more than once.
Have a look at Hi Ace prices second hand,absolutely rediculous.

Going to order a Hi Lux for work,still 4 to 6 months wait[bigsad]
Need a Hi Ace as well,in stock,which is surprising.

Neighbour picked up a Ford Wildtrack,paid a huge premium to jump the queue.[bighmmm]
He actually is not that happy with it,doesn't pull the van anything like as well as his previous tug,an 11 yr old stock LC200 wagon.

Around here,most of the second hand and new car yards here are pretty full,the only one that is generally empty is the Tesla yard.

[Tins]

There is also the question of who will be the winners on the electric car market and who will pull out? No one wants a vehicle that the manufacturer no longer exists to support. I would not want to bet on who will still be here in 10 years. While perhaps not such a factor in new vehicle sales it is showing real evidence of impacting the used market. This then further impacts values

Already a major factor in China.


Tesla recent price reduction has really hits used values hard across the market. This is then impacting the leasing companies who booked a value based on what was already a difficult market. Their risk committees were already nervous. There are some big losses based on predicted values and new real market values when these vehicles come back from the user and have to be sold

Bigger than many think. Ford AU learned this when they blinked and dropped prices on the then EF in the face of diminishing sales due to the success of Holden's VT. The lease companies lost big on prospective resales. Contrary to popular myth, this is what killed the AU, as in those days nearly 80% of Falcodore sales were to lease companies for company cars, and they had had their fingers burnt.

[scarry]

As EV's get older,and tech advances,no doubt their resale values will plummet substantially.

The diminishing range of the battery, due to age,and cost of a replacement battery won't help resale either.

[NavyDiver]

I may have rode my bike past yesterday? Didn't pay attention clearly [biggrin]

My new silly car is in Port Phillip Bay today. The Port Fairy Chemo Express run 20 Oct is looking very much simpler now!

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:420072/zoom:10)

[350RRC]

...................

........... Contrary to popular myth, this is what killed the AU.......



Jack Nassar killed the AU when he made the 'Captain's Pick' of the original front grill.

After time there was an option offered, but it was too late.

DL

[NavyDiver]

As EV's get older,and tech advances,no doubt their resale values will plummet substantially.

The diminishing range of the battery, due to age,and cost of a replacement battery won't help resale either.

Apparently a Common EV model is now the same price a standard ICE!!!

"Tesla Prices Fall Below Average US Car Costs, Model 3 On Par With Toyota Corolla" The story (IF True) is " The entry-level Model 3 costs nearly $9,000 less than the average price of a car in the US.
" Link to yarn https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-prices-fall-below-average-us-car-costs-model-3-on-par-with-toyota-corolla/ar-AA1hWfjw

It was always going to happen. I thought it would be a few more years!

Edit. Re "The diminishing range of the battery, due to age,and cost of a replacement battery won't help resale" The failed battery from the Tesla here is repaired and in another car now I understand!
The remove and replace the battery was a LOT quicker than I though it would be for that brand.

Given they can. It is almost inevitable that Auto Electrical shops will be able to do it already.

Nissa Leaf have been out for 10 years now. Several stores in the USA are replacing them!

Just saw a interesting pic of range of thier batteries

https://assets-global.website-files.com/60ce1b7dd21cd5b42639ff42/641b25b360fbbaced46d40c4_LEAF.webp

Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement Guide for EV Owners (recurrentauto.com) (https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement#:~:text=You%E2%80%99ll%20first%20sched ule%20an%20appointment%20with%20your%20local,and%2 0reattach%20it%20safely%20with%20the%20proper%20ca bles.)

My car is not worse after 50,000 ( It was NEVER great :) )
Still safe to 200km range at highway speeds. It only ever got its alleged WTPL 250 if crawling :)

[4bee]

I may have rode my bike past yesterday? Didn't pay attention clearly [biggrin]

My new silly car is in Port Phillip Bay today.

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:420072/zoom:10)


Don't you know that Salt Water can bugger up engines etc? [bighmmm] [bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Don't you know that Salt Water can bugger up engines etc? [bighmmm] [bigrolf]

It may have done that to the Ship Des. It's still sitting off Ocean Grove[bawl][bawl][bawl]

Dozens of ships waiting their turn to load or unload. Hoping to have it before Next Friday so I still have a chance that Melb Ports will work thought the flotilla of ships out there!

[Homestar]

The Port is one of the major hurdles to getting a car now. The Dmax took 6 weeks from sitting on the ship waiting to be unloaded to taking delivery. Hope yours is much shorter - it seems to be the luck of the draw.

[4bee]

It may have done that to the Ship Des. It's still sitting off Ocean Grove[bawl][bawl][bawl]

Dozens of ships waiting their turn to load or unload. Hoping to have it before Next Friday so I still have a chance that Melb Ports will work thought the flotilla of ships out there!


It may have been quicker to unload in Adelaide & drive back to Vic.

You must have old shipmate buddies who can, in their civvie jobs, change things. Nudge nudge wink wink.:rulez:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Apparently a Common EV model is now the same price a standard ICE!!!

"Tesla Prices Fall Below Average US Car Costs, Model 3 On Par With Toyota Corolla" The story (IF True) is " The entry-level Model 3 costs nearly $9,000 less than the average price of a car in the US.
" Link to yarn https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/tesla-prices-fall-below-average-us-car-costs-model-3-on-par-with-toyota-corolla/ar-AA1hWfjw

It was always going to happen. I thought it would be a few more years!

Edit. Re "The diminishing range of the battery, due to age,and cost of a replacement battery won't help resale" The failed battery from the Tesla here is repaired and in another car now I understand!
The remove and replace the battery was a LOT quicker than I though it would be for that brand.

Given they can. It is almost inevitable that Auto Electrical shops will be able to do it already.

Nissa Leaf have been out for 10 years now. Several stores in the USA are replacing them!

Just saw a interesting pic of range of thier batteries

https://assets-global.website-files.com/60ce1b7dd21cd5b42639ff42/641b25b360fbbaced46d40c4_LEAF.webp

Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement Guide for EV Owners (recurrentauto.com) (https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement#:~:text=You%E2%80%99ll%20first%20sched ule%20an%20appointment%20with%20your%20local,and%2 0reattach%20it%20safely%20with%20the%20proper%20ca bles.)

My car is not worse after 50,000 ( It was NEVER great :) )
Still safe to 200km range at highway speeds. It only ever got its alleged WTPL 250 if crawling :)
You do know that Nissan Leafs don't have active battery cooling? And that their batteries can really only last a few years in hot climates? And that all decent EV's have active cooling/heating of the batteries and very very good management? So in general they last long time.

I have mixed feelings about the leaf. They were kind of the first mass produced "normal" EV. But their battery tech lead people to believe that batteries suffer massive degradation and only last a few years. Which enabled this kind of thinking.

[Tins]

If this fire at Luton airport turns out to have started with an EV this debate will change big time.

Note: I'm not saying it did, nobody knows yet. But it will impact the market. Even if not, there were many EVs there and the potential of thermal runaways is great.
Fire rips through car park at Luton Airport - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446)

[Tombie]

Chatting with an owner, perhaps you can confirm…

Tesla Model 3 Long Range.

Owner says he was told / recommended to use 80-90% charge to help preserve the battery life. Supercharging is hard on the battery and shortens this life if used regularly and a 7kwh is the preferred option?

In 3 years and nearing 100,000km he’s down 15% below the claimed range (according to dash) and in reality gets less than that with 400-425km the normal (quoted 629km)

This vehicle is used regularly for runs to his shack up here near Whyalla from Adelaide, so for those runs is charged to 100% and he’s getting close to not making it on a single charge. Eg, once he gets to the shack he’s on charge overnight before he heads into town. His solution is a small 4cyl runabout for when he gets here.

He loves the power, handling and comfort. And back home it’s perfect for him - he has an 18kwh array and 3 Tesla batteries on his house so no charge issues.

My question: Are people really willing to accept spending such money on a vehicle that is <80% capable of its claim and then within 5 years is even less capable again?

People went mental when phones started losing charge capacity. These current EVs don’t even seem to start with the capability claimed and slide quite notably from there.

I’m also puzzled how one of the big statistics companies quotes (USD) a Tesla annual maintenance cost about 15-20% higher than the average of other similar sized vehicles? Besides a check over, maybe some greasing, battery coolant service etc. what’s the annual cost?

Sure, tyres, what else? And at end of warranty kms allow a full suspension replacement - that’s just wear and tear and should be done…

[NavyDiver]

Chatting with an owner, perhaps you can confirm…

Tesla Model 3 Long Range.

Owner says he was told / recommended to use 80-90% charge to help preserve the battery life. Supercharging is hard on the battery and shortens this life if used regularly and a 7kwh is the preferred option?

In 3 years and nearing 100,000km he’s down 15% below the claimed range (according to dash) and in reality gets less than that with 400-425km the normal (quoted 629km)

This vehicle is used regularly for runs to his shack up here near Whyalla from Adelaide, so for those runs is charged to 100% and he’s getting close to not making it on a single charge. Eg, once he gets to the shack he’s on charge overnight before he heads into town. His solution is a small 4cyl runabout for when he gets here.

He loves the power, handling and comfort. And back home it’s perfect for him - he has an 18kwh array and 3 Tesla batteries on his house so no charge issues.

My question: Are people really willing to accept spending such money on a vehicle that is <80% capable of its claim and then within 5 years is even less capable again?

People went mental when phones started losing charge capacity. These current EVs don’t even seem to start with the capability claimed and slide quite notably from there.

I’m also puzzled how one of the big statistics companies quotes (USD) a Tesla annual maintenance cost about 15-20% higher than the average of other similar sized vehicles? Besides a check over, maybe some greasing, battery coolant service etc. what’s the annual cost?

Sure, tyres, what else? And at end of warranty kms allow a full suspension replacement - that’s just wear and tear and should be done…

Might be right or maybe not. A study I read found no impact of Fast or Snail-paced charging on most aspects of Battery Charging. The 80% rule is a guide for longevity in the clearly not so great current tech only happily. A slightly newer style in a BYD is not impacted due to the chemistry changes I was told.

The truth is batteries can burn in the current tech and old school tech as well[thumbsupbig] Next Gen are not a issue at buring if damaged abused or faulty [bigsmile]
Want to cosider the flip side? "On average, 213,000 cars catch fire every year in the United States, which is about 600 car fires per day (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=7a50cfd0cb74a5f1JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2Ng&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=5217ba2a2278111cJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2Nw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1). The vast majority of these fires are sparked by mechanical or electrical problems (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=9391828b74db6350JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2OA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=fc92f8f865bb390dJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2OQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1). In 2021, there were around 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported in the United States (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=652b1f763df1ccbfJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3MA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3RhdGlzdGEuY29tL3N0YXRpc3RpY3 MvMzc3MDA2L25tYmVyLW9mLXVzLWhpZ2h3YXktdmVoaWNsZS1m aXJlcy8&ntb=1)2 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=867c57f94ad3e64eJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3MQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3RhdGlzdGEuY29tL3N0YXRpc3RpY3 MvMzc3MDA2L25tYmVyLW9mLXVzLWhpZ2h3YXktdmVoaWNsZS1m aXJlcy8&ntb=1). Passenger cars averaged 117,400 fires annually between 2013 and 2017 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b433fc92f23aa7c5JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3Mg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2FyYW5kZHJpdmVyLmNvbS9uZXdzL2 E0MDE2Mzk2Ni9jYXJzLWNhdGNoaW5nLWZpcmUtbmV3LXlvcmst dGltZXMtcmVhbC1zdGF0aXN0aWNzLw&ntb=1)3 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=c8b1f8640b1eca8cJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3Mw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2FyYW5kZHJpdmVyLmNvbS9uZXdzL2 E0MDE2Mzk2Ni9jYXJzLWNhdGNoaW5nLWZpcmUtbmV3LXlvcmst dGltZXMtcmVhbC1zdGF0aXN0aWNzLw&ntb=1). From 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths, 1,300 injuries, and $1.1 billion in property (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ba7ae070c5cc10a5JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9jbGVhbnRlY2huaWNhLmNvbS8yMDE5LzA2Lz AzLzUwMC1nYXMtY2FyLWZpcmVzLXBlci1kYXktY2FuLXdlLXBs ZWFzZS1nZXQtc2VyaW91cy1hYm91dC1lbGVjdHJpYy1jYXItYm F0dGVyeS1maXJlcy8&ntb=1)..."

Saw a car on fire while riding around on Sunday. It was put out happily.

My car is still rolling about 10km south of Anglesea. The Melb Ports must be very very busy! [bigwhistle] Must cost a PACKET for all the ships waiting out there! Bet we get to pay for that of course [bawl]

[Tins]

Want to cosider the flip side? "On average, 213,000 cars catch fire every year in the United States, which is about 600 car fires per day (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=7a50cfd0cb74a5f1JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2Ng&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=5217ba2a2278111cJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2Nw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1). The vast majority of these fires are sparked by mechanical or electrical problems (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=9391828b74db6350JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2OA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=fc92f8f865bb390dJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY2OQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2Fyc21ldHJpYy5jb20vZWxlY3RyaW MtY2FyLWZpcmUtc3RhdGlzdGljcy8&ntb=1). In 2021, there were around 174,000 highway vehicle fires reported in the United States (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=652b1f763df1ccbfJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3MA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3RhdGlzdGEuY29tL3N0YXRpc3RpY3 MvMzc3MDA2L25tYmVyLW9mLXVzLWhpZ2h3YXktdmVoaWNsZS1m aXJlcy8&ntb=1)2 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=867c57f94ad3e64eJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3MQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc3RhdGlzdGEuY29tL3N0YXRpc3RpY3 MvMzc3MDA2L25tYmVyLW9mLXVzLWhpZ2h3YXktdmVoaWNsZS1m aXJlcy8&ntb=1). Passenger cars averaged 117,400 fires annually between 2013 and 2017 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b433fc92f23aa7c5JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3Mg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2FyYW5kZHJpdmVyLmNvbS9uZXdzL2 E0MDE2Mzk2Ni9jYXJzLWNhdGNoaW5nLWZpcmUtbmV3LXlvcmst dGltZXMtcmVhbC1zdGF0aXN0aWNzLw&ntb=1)3 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=c8b1f8640b1eca8cJmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3Mw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuY2FyYW5kZHJpdmVyLmNvbS9uZXdzL2 E0MDE2Mzk2Ni9jYXJzLWNhdGNoaW5nLWZpcmUtbmV3LXlvcmst dGltZXMtcmVhbC1zdGF0aXN0aWNzLw&ntb=1). From 2014 to 2016, an estimated 171,500 highway vehicle fires occurred in the United States, resulting in an annual average of 345 deaths, 1,300 injuries, and $1.1 billion in property (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ba7ae070c5cc10a5JmltdHM9MTY5Njk4MjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTY3NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=how+many+car+fires+in+us&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9jbGVhbnRlY2huaWNhLmNvbS8yMDE5LzA2Lz AzLzUwMC1nYXMtY2FyLWZpcmVzLXBlci1kYXktY2FuLXdlLXBs ZWFzZS1nZXQtc2VyaW91cy1hYm91dC1lbGVjdHJpYy1jYXItYm F0dGVyeS1maXJlcy8&ntb=1)..."



Want to consider that those fires are relatively easily extinguished, and are rarely caused by spontaneous combustion, while the exact opposite is true of EVs.

[Tombie]

Demurrage here is currently $35,000USD per day for a ship that isn’t being actively loaded/unloaded having arrived inside its Laycan and exceeds its load/discharge window.

[Tins]

On the subject of fires, there are quite a few vids of a Tesla which slid in off a boat ramp. The car is burning merrily.... underwater. I can't link to them due to language, but a simple "Tesla fire underwater" goggle should find one.

There is talk that very many multistory car parks are going to ban EVs from entry. That will also impact the market.
No wonder Tesla dropped prices..... [bigwhistle]

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/iE0_v_Kj2Zg'si=aACVNUzsbe_TX7Kr

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/hs5euxp12sA'si=4LblqDqpitbpZnAJ

[scarry]

There is talk that very many multistory car parks are going to ban EVs from entry. That will also impact the market.
No wonder Tesla dropped prices..... [bigwhistle]

Our Insurance broker recently mentioned Insurance companies will just walk away as well,they won't insure buildings,carparks,or whatever, with multiple EV chargers.

[NavyDiver]

It may have been quicker to unload in Adelaide & drive back to Vic.

You must have old shipmate buddies who can, in their civvie jobs, change things. Nudge nudge wink wink.:rulez:

It was at Port Kembla NSW. It would have been quicker for me to run up there and Drive back [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

John posted so I had a look. Seems it was a Mercedes

http://Luton firehttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12618033/started-London-Luton-car-park-fire-moment.html


It was driving not charging or parked apparently. PIC 49!
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/10/11/08/76417221-12617669-image-a-43_1697010934403.jpg

German Tech? Might be "Mercedes-Benz is using NCM 811 lithium-ion cells (cathode active material consists of nickel, cobalt and manganese in a ratio of 8:1:1) in pouch cells or hard-case/prismatic type. There can be 10 or 12 modules (90 and 108 kWh versions). The overall architecture is 400-volt."

As said this many times. This is OLD school compared to what QuatumScape, Toyota and the biggest almost but not solid state Chinese brand have all got on the road in testing now!
It may or may not be better than the battery on charge under me right now [bigrolf]

[101RRS]

This maybe a problem for the Japanese Navy in the future - with battery technology advancing, they have decided to stay conventional and the new Taigei class of submarine is powered by Lithium Ion batteries instead of the traditional lead acid batteries normally used.

The results are enhanced silent operations, better speeds and sprints, longer underwater endurance, and significantly greater overall performance when compared with more conventional undersea submarines.

They have tried to mitigate the fire risk which is deadly to submarines - but the risk must still be high.

[JDNSW]

Yes, but there are major risks to many military machines from fuel and ordnance. Consider the number of warships lost over the years due to ordnance malfunctions, including submarines, or aircraft lost due to in flight fires whether due to enemy action or not.

OK, batteries are an additional risk, certainly, but the improved performance may well be considered worth it.

[NavyDiver]

Morning Cherry misfire? Not on Ports Vic Schedule at all?
Ship movements | Victorian Ports Corporation (Melbourne) (https://www.vicports.vic.gov.au/operations/pages/ship-movements.aspx)
32K per day cost is an ouch! Thank you for the Number.

Perhaps there is a just in case emergency docking list[biggrin]


Fires on ships, subs planes any where are NOT good. The necessity to have Lithium with a liquid catalyst battery like most of us are wearing on our wrist and carrying in our phones is clearly normally very low risk? Happily it is changing fast soon. And Charging Very Fast soon[biggrin][thumbsupbig]

I did see some statistics on fire risk which were incredibly boring despite the sensational reporting of any fires from almost any source or type or cause. That was why I have RFX Flow Batteries at work. I was paranoid perhaps[bigrolf]

[ramblingboy42]

when I was learning to fly , much mention was made of thermal runaway in aeroplane batteries. Seems general aviation has got the better of this in over 100yrs of aeroplane production. I have never heard of a lead-acid battery having a thermal runaway in a motor vehicle , but guess it does. Up until a few years ago, the vast number of electric vehicles mostly industrial, but still , many hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of them used and still use lead-acid batteries. No problems. Why the problems with the new tech? Why are they having thermal runaways leading to fires?

[Tins]

. Why the problems with the new tech? Why are they having thermal runaways leading to fires?

I dunno if you are familiar with an 18650 lithium cell. It looks a little like a AA batt, but slightly bigger. Couple of years ago I was attempting to replace three of these in a 12v drill battery ( note to self, do this when sober ) and I shorted two of them.... The energy in these things has to be seen to be believed. First they became too hot to touch, so I grabbed some tongs and threw them outside. They then burst into flames and burned until there was nothing left. It was bloody scary. Two cells could have burned my house down. Water does NOT extinguish them, rather like phosphorous in that sense. Multiply this by the number of cells in an EV batt.

In Richard Hammond's rather famous accident in the Rimac, the battery cascade fire burned for five DAYS. They just keep reigniting.

People can talk about "cooling" all they like, but if one of these things becomes compromised stand well back and watch it burn.

From 4:20

https://youtu.be/gj3KqgPNeiY'si=XPLEhYq1PJpe97ww

[NavyDiver]

when I was learning to fly , much mention was made of thermal runaway in aeroplane batteries. Seems general aviation has got the better of this in over 100yrs of aeroplane production. I have never heard of a lead-acid battery having a thermal runaway in a motor vehicle , but guess it does. Up until a few years ago, the vast number of electric vehicles mostly industrial, but still , many hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of them used and still use lead-acid batteries. No problems. Why the problems with the new tech? Why are they having thermal runaways leading to fires?

The Lithium Liquid catalyst is the problem. It can be unstable. It is " liquid electrolyte composed of lithium salts dissolved in a solvent, such as ethylene carbonate or propylene carbonate"

We all know how flammable some of those parts can be!

There is some less flammable types and also newer semi solid state out now and real solid state which do not have those flammable compounds! The key in safety is usually in the Charge rate possible. My car cannot go over 50Kw P hour even if plugged into 350kWh chargers. BYD is similar with "50kWh (Battery) versions can accept up to 70kW of DC charging, while models fitted with the bigger extended battery can take 80kW."

The about to be here "CATL launches 500 Wh/kg condensed matter battery" it MAY be "CATL has designed a "fully nano-crystallized lithium iron phosphate cathode material to create a super electronic network, which facilitates the extraction of lithium ions and the rapid response to charging signals.""Fast ion ring" technology has been deployed on the graphite electrodes, creating more metaphorical freeway lanes and shortening travel distances for the lithium ions as they travel toward and away from the active surfaces. And a new "superconducting electrolyte formula" reduces viscosity, helping ions move charge more rapidly.
CATL says the battery will charge from 0-80% in 10 minutes, unlocking up to 400 km (249 miles) of driving range in a single, very quick stint on a fast charger. That's at normal temperatures; take things down below freezing to -10 °C (14 °F), and an 80% charge using built-in battery heating will take you 30 minutes. The company says that low temperatures won't affect the battery's ability to deliver its full power to the wheels if needed."


It is not Solid state! Close[biggrin] The car sitting out side Port Phillip heads can charge at "135kW" That will make the charging almost 3 times faster than my current XS Ev at fast DC chargers! My Coffee breaks will have to be a LOT shorter[thumbsupbig]

as stated- they cannot tow my boat yet!!! :(

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Chatting with an owner, perhaps you can confirm…

Tesla Model 3 Long Range.

Owner says he was told / recommended to use 80-90% charge to help preserve the battery life. Supercharging is hard on the battery and shortens this life if used regularly and a 7kwh is the preferred option?

In 3 years and nearing 100,000km he’s down 15% below the claimed range (according to dash) and in reality gets less than that with 400-425km the normal (quoted 629km)

This vehicle is used regularly for runs to his shack up here near Whyalla from Adelaide, so for those runs is charged to 100% and he’s getting close to not making it on a single charge. Eg, once he gets to the shack he’s on charge overnight before he heads into town. His solution is a small 4cyl runabout for when he gets here.

He loves the power, handling and comfort. And back home it’s perfect for him - he has an 18kwh array and 3 Tesla batteries on his house so no charge issues.

My question: Are people really willing to accept spending such money on a vehicle that is <80% capable of its claim and then within 5 years is even less capable again?

People went mental when phones started losing charge capacity. These current EVs don’t even seem to start with the capability claimed and slide quite notably from there.

I’m also puzzled how one of the big statistics companies quotes (USD) a Tesla annual maintenance cost about 15-20% higher than the average of other similar sized vehicles? Besides a check over, maybe some greasing, battery coolant service etc. what’s the annual cost?

Sure, tyres, what else? And at end of warranty kms allow a full suspension replacement - that’s just wear and tear and should be done…

So a few points.

What is indicated on the range thing is some weird EPA thing which might be affected by operation. Use the one in energy monitor for a more realistic estimate.

If your friend really thinks he's had 15% degradation after 100k (and that's more than is normal) then perhaps he could consider doing the battery test in service mode. If he's seeing a reduction in range I'd be suggesting the most likely outcome is he's "enjoying the power" or has done something to mess with the aerodynamics (roof rack, wheels etc).

Either way.. he has the NMC battery. They don't recommend charging it to 100% unless you need the range. If you do then charge before you leave and don't worry about it. Just don't charge it to 100 and leave it sitting for a week. As to the charging speed - people supercharge all the time. Unless you are doing it continually I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the public chargers in QLD are "only" 50kwh which isn't that fast. This sounds a lot like someone who dislikes EV's looking for problems. [happycry]

I'm not super familiar with SA, but a quick look on the map indicates it's about 400k. Which frankly the defender would have to be filled to do a return trip. I note that there isn't a lot of public fast chargers along the way but it must have been noted as the RAA I see has planned 6 fast charger sites along the route. Hopefully it sounds like he'll be able to stop for a leg stretch and get all the power he needs along the way.


Have a read of this. Personally I'm not too worried. I don't regularly test the limits of my cars range, so if it does have a little degradation I'm not worried. Mine has the LFP battery anyway which isn't supposed to degrade much. By then I will have saved so much on fuel and servicing I don't think I'll be worried. If people are really wanting to test the range of their 10year old EV.. perhaps thats a fringe case. By then I expect chargers will be common.

A Study on Real-Life Tesla Battery Deterioration | NimbleFins (https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration)

As to the servicing costs.. I've no idea. There aren't really any scheduled services. There is a guy on one of the groups who is an uber driver.. he's up to 220k or something like that and has spent a couple hundred on cabin filters and some minor sundries. He reports the factory brake pads sill have over half thickness. Again.. it would appear that is one of the big advantages of Tesla is low service costs. The only thing I can think of against that is the tyres are pretty expensive, but probably pretty similar compared to other like vehicles.

As to replacing all the suspension after 4 years.. maybe if you are a high mileage person but it sounds a bit extreme. I guess if you drive a lot.. like any other car.

[Tins]

So, the strategy is "don't fill it up, and don't enjoy the power"? Got it.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So, the strategy is "don't fill it up, and don't enjoy the power"? Got it.
I thought it was "If you need to fill it or supercharge it then just do it and don't worry".

I'd like to add on "But if you want to enjoy the power then maybe don't whinge about the range".

Sounds just like any vehicle?

Me personally.. I'm not that worried about EV batteries. I'm more concerned about all the 10 YO discoveries I see that are being basically written off because no one can figure out WTF is causing some crazy electrical fault. Personally I'd be more outraged about that.

[scarry]

I'm more concerned about all the 10 YO discoveries I see that are being basically written off because no one can figure out WTF is causing some crazy electrical fault. Personally I'd be more outraged about that.

Or the many that have engine failures and are not viable to repair….[bigsad]

[Homestar]

I thought it was "If you need to fill it or supercharge it then just do it and don't worry".

I'd like to add on "But if you want to enjoy the power then maybe don't whinge about the range".

Sounds just like any vehicle?

Me personally.. I'm not that worried about EV batteries. I'm more concerned about all the 10 YO discoveries I see that are being basically written off because no one can figure out WTF is causing some crazy electrical fault. Personally I'd be more outraged about that.

Land Rovers with Electrical faults? - never heard of such a thing! [emoji56]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Or the many that have engine failures and are not viable to repair….[bigsad]
Exactly!

Personally I would 100% rather have a 10 YO Tesla than a 10 YO discovery/rangie/defender (new one).

[Homestar]

I’m probably with you on that one. I certainly wouldn’t buy a 10 year old Land Rover. My Land Rovers are 38 and 47 years old - that comes with plenty of other challenges but Electronics aren’t one of them. [emoji16]

[Tins]

10 yo Tesla?? I think I'd take a petrol Disco over a Roadster or a very early Model S, which is what you'd get. But that's just me.

But, I'm on record here saying that I won't be buying an EV, or a current model LR, any of them, so I guess it's moot.

[Tins]

I’m probably with you on that one. I certainly wouldn’t buy a 10 year old Land Rover. My Land Rovers are 38 and 47 years old - that comes with plenty of other challenges but Electronics aren’t one of them. [emoji16]

I would definitely consider a 2013 Deefer except for the stupid money they cost.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I’m probably with you on that one. I certainly wouldn’t buy a 10 year old Land Rover. My Land Rovers are 38 and 47 years old - that comes with plenty of other challenges but Electronics aren’t one of them. [emoji16]
I'm fortunate "TOUCH WOOD" that my 18 YO one doesn't have too many electrical gremlins. [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

If this fire at Luton airport turns out to have started with an EV this debate will change big time.

Note: I'm not saying it did, nobody knows yet. But it will impact the market. Even if not, there were many EVs there and the potential of thermal runaways is great.
Fire rips through car park at Luton Airport - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073446)
BMW and not EV it seems John

"Fire officials have confirmed a diesel-powered car was the cause of a blaze that may have damaged up to 1500 vehicles at a multi-storey car park at London’s Luton Airport.
The first calls regarding the fire were received by Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service at 8:47pm on Tuesday, October 10, with the parking structure in turn experiencing a significant structural collapse."

Debate will not change [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] our bias is ours Sir

[JDNSW]

No Sprinklers?

[DiscoDB]

BMW and not EV it seems John

"Fire officials have confirmed a diesel-powered car was the cause of a blaze that may have damaged up to 1500 vehicles at a multi-storey car park at London’s Luton Airport.
The first calls regarding the fire were received by Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service at 8:47pm on Tuesday, October 10, with the parking structure in turn experiencing a significant structural collapse."

Debate will not change [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] our bias is ours Sir

Allegedly it was a Range Rover not BMW.

No doubt the story will change 6 more times yet….

[RANDLOVER]

I thought it was "If you need to fill it or supercharge it then just do it and don't worry".

I'd like to add on "But if you want to enjoy the power then maybe don't whinge about the range".

Sounds just like any vehicle?

Me personally.. I'm not that worried about EV batteries. I'm more concerned about all the 10 YO discoveries I see that are being basically written off because no one can figure out WTF is causing some crazy electrical fault. Personally I'd be more outraged about that.

For comparison EV's have incredible acceleration due to instant torque, so not oranges and apples if comparing Veron Vs Tesla Plaid, but to get that sort of performance out of an ICE car all sorts of mechanical wizardry is required, so you end up with something like a Bugatti Veyron which does 0-60mph in 2.6 secs slightly slower than a Plaid IIRC.

A full-speed, 250-mph run in the Veyron would only last 15 minutes and would cost more than $42,000.Technically, you’d only make it 12 minutes, because the 26.4-gallon fuel tank would be empty at that point. However, even if you had enough road—the Veyron can do 253 mph, meaning it covers 4.21 miles a minute. You would need 50.6 miles of road to keep your foot buried for 12 minutes. But the Veyron’s tires wouldn’t last. They’re only good enough for running at 250 mph for about 15 minutes. After that, Bugatti would need to swap them for a new set, which reportedly will set you back a whopping $42,000. 22 Fascinating Facts You Didn’t Know About Bugatti – Robb Report (https://robbreport.com/motors/cars/bugatti-facts-2871870/)

[NavyDiver]

This is interesting for several reasons

"The all-new cab-forward truck’s three battery packs offer a total capacity of 621 kilowatt-hours.

Mercedes-Benz Trucks has revealed a new generation of its all-electric long-haul truck dubbed the eActros 600, which can be seen as a direct competitor to the rumored short-range version of the Tesla Semi.
Featuring a cab-forward design typical of European trucks, the eActros 600 is based on an 800-volt electric architecture that accommodates two electric motors with a continuous output of 400 kilowatts (536 horsepower) and three lithium iron phosphate (LFP) battery packs that offer a total capacity of 621 kilowatt-hours."

Charging at 1mw is included for future proofing ( Despite the LFP being a bit more upto date yet still not quiet as fast as next years crop)

"Charging the batteries can be done via the CCS2 connector at rates of up to 400 kW but Mercedes-Benz says that the truck is also capable of accepting up to one megawatt (1 MW) of DC power from a compatible source and that the vehicles will be retrofittable with the proper connector and components once the so-called megawatt charging system (MCS) technology becomes available and is standardized."

The Interest is the One Megawatt charging for three reasons for me.

1- Solid state type cars would be charged as fast or faster than a current Landerover fuel loading for petrol or diesel
2- If EU/Germany replace all trucks and cars with this capacity the massive storage for the massive real time demand on top of the double/quadrupling or more for real total power demands is only going to occur with all Solar, Wind and a huge jump in Nuclear power is put in place to enable it. Add Home and work Heatpumps for heating, cooling and hot water to the extra demand :)
3- Warranty and life expectancy will not make many happy.

(Mercedes-Benz (https://insideevs.com/mercedes-benz/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) eActros 600, its maker says that the entire vehicle is covered by a 12-month warranty with unlimited miles, while the electric powertrain is covered under warranty for a maximum of 36 months or 223,693 miles (360,000 km). The high-voltage batteries benefit from the longest warranty period, with a maximum of 72 months, 447,387 miles (720,000 km), or 1,800 charging cycles, whichever comes first.)

Link to yarn (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/mercedes-benz-eactros-600-truck-unveiled-with-massive-lfp-battery/ar-AA1i6w4I?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=aef39db9c3e749c49c320e40bd1cf062&ei=8)

[Tombie]

We have a big electric prime mover here at the moment.
Will be on display to the public over the weekend.

It’s new task - hauling from Carapatena to our port.

Massive battery packs, dropped and swapped at each end of the journey.

[Tins]

Unconfirmed, but it seems that the Luton airport fire may have started with, drumroll, a Range Rover Sport Hybrid. UK taloids are blaming the Evoke self immolation thing; well, they would, wouldn't they?

Cause of the fire in the Glasgow airport car park remains unknown.

Meanwhile, several Tesla fires at dealerships are being blamed on radicals... Funny, I thought radicals approved of EVs. Maybe I'm too old to keep up.

[Homestar]

We have a big electric prime mover here at the moment.
Will be on display to the public over the weekend.

It’s new task - hauling from Carapatena to our port.

Massive battery packs, dropped and swapped at each end of the journey.

So around 250 to 300KM each way? Do you know any details - would be interested to see it.

[Tombie]

So around 250 to 300KM each way? Do you know any details - would be interested to see it.

I’ll get you some.

This was the public article a while ago. Get to see it in the flesh now [emoji41]

Australian miner to trial world's first electric "triple" road train with swappable battery (https://thedriven.io/2023/04/18/australian-miner-to-trial-worlds-first-electric-triple-road-train-with-swappable-battery/)

OZ Minerals To Trial Triple Road Train Powered By Electric Semi – Energy And Mines (https://energyandmines.com/2023/04/oz-minerals-to-trial-triple-road-train-powered-by-electric-semi/)

[RANDLOVER]

Electrification is certainly progressing, as the last I saw on electric trucks was from the same company, but for a logging truck which is only a double trailer not a triple like a road train....Electric vehicle logging truck launches for Green Triangle trial in South Australia - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-02-28/electric-logging-vehicle-green-triangle-trial-south-australia-ev/102032258)

[NavyDiver]

this is about the car not the political part so excuses me if this is not your cup of tea


A EV drove a guy to hospital after dozens of 7.62 rounds from Ak47s hit the car! That is one seriously lucky person!!!

"Even though the Tesla's tires were flattened, the driver said the Model 3 Performance (https://insideevs.com/news/659943/kia-ev6-gt-drag-races-tesla-model-3-performance-it-is-really-close/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) dual-motor AWD system managed to keep the car on the road. He realized he was seriously wounded, so he pushed the accelerator to reach the hospital, reaching speeds of up to 112 miles per hour.Fortunately for him, the diesel truck – a Toyota Hilux or Isuzu D-Max, according to what he recalls – wasn't able to keep up with the Tesla, and he managed to get away.
He arrived at the Barzilai Hospital in Beer Sheva despite the fact one of the tires had disintegrated completely, according to the story. Looking at the photos of the car shared on social media, it's a miracle that he is still alive"

There is a video in the link!



https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1iaQk9.img?w=768&h=432&m=6


https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/driver-flees-hamas-gunfire-with-help-from-tesla-model-3-performance-report/ar-AA1iaxK3?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=3feff0bcd5e6493a9b31d1b20c6fa5f2&ei=14

[V8Ian]

[bighmmm]

https://youtu.be/zlRC4SsOr_s'si=Su4ReQ6XJuc_pDrW

[Arapiles]

[bighmmm]

https://youtu.be/zlRC4SsOr_s'si=Su4ReQ6XJuc_pDrW


Talking about car shows ..... I'll be at the Tokyo Motor Show the week after next.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Chatting with an owner, perhaps you can confirm…

Tesla Model 3 Long Range.

Owner says he was told / recommended to use 80-90% charge to help preserve the battery life. Supercharging is hard on the battery and shortens this life if used regularly and a 7kwh is the preferred option?

In 3 years and nearing 100,000km he’s down 15% below the claimed range (according to dash) and in reality gets less than that with 400-425km the normal (quoted 629km)

This vehicle is used regularly for runs to his shack up here near Whyalla from Adelaide, so for those runs is charged to 100% and he’s getting close to not making it on a single charge. Eg, once he gets to the shack he’s on charge overnight before he heads into town. His solution is a small 4cyl runabout for when he gets here.

He loves the power, handling and comfort. And back home it’s perfect for him - he has an 18kwh array and 3 Tesla batteries on his house so no charge issues.

My question: Are people really willing to accept spending such money on a vehicle that is <80% capable of its claim and then within 5 years is even less capable again?

People went mental when phones started losing charge capacity. These current EVs don’t even seem to start with the capability claimed and slide quite notably from there.

I’m also puzzled how one of the big statistics companies quotes (USD) a Tesla annual maintenance cost about 15-20% higher than the average of other similar sized vehicles? Besides a check over, maybe some greasing, battery coolant service etc. what’s the annual cost?

Sure, tyres, what else? And at end of warranty kms allow a full suspension replacement - that’s just wear and tear and should be done…

Did a longer drive in our car yesterday. May I ask that you as your mate to look at the energy monitor screen, and click "rated" and since charge? That should show where the power is going.

If there isn't any update in there then do the battery check in service menu.

Of course the easiest thing is to spray the FUD!

[V8Ian]

Allegedly it was a Range Rover not BMW.

No doubt the story will change 6 more times yet….
Allegedly a diesel Range Rover. Supposedly caught on dash cam, early in the incident.
187333

187334
If the claims and photos are to be believed, it could be a hybrid battery fire.

[Homestar]

[bighmmm]

https://youtu.be/zlRC4SsOr_s'si=Su4ReQ6XJuc_pDrW

Jeep's are a huge scam but suckers seem to fall for that one as well.

[NavyDiver]

Jeep's are a huge scam but suckers seem to fall for that one as well.

Add Nickle, Graphite and a staggering amount of copper. Not just for EVs of course. On a share spruiking site topic on my favorite Poo to money hydrogen stock I added I had not seen before today

" "the EU's Renewable Energy Directive explicitly
necessitates that 42% of industrial hydrogen must be green by 2030, with a goal of reaching 60% by 2035.
Additionally, the directive underscores that 1% of all fuels used in 2030 must be Renewable Fuels of Non-Biological origin." from a PV1 report link (https://www.aspecthuntley.com.au/docserver/02725478.pdf?fileid=02725478&datedir=20231016&edt=MjAyMy0xMC0xNiswOTo0MToxNis0ODArMTM4MDU2OCthbm RyZXd3ZXN0K3JlZGlyZWN0K2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmFzcGVjdGh1 bnRsZXkuY29tLmF1L2ltYWdlc2lnbmFsL2Vycm9ycGFnZXMvcG RmdGltZW91dC5odG1sK2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmFzcGVjdGh1bnRs ZXkuY29tLmF1L2ltYWdlc2lnbmFsL2Vycm9ycGFnZXMvcGRmZG VsYXllZC5qc3A=)" It has "Nearly half a trillion euros are needed to kickstart the hydrogen economyClean hydrogen presents tremendous opportunities for investors, but technological and regulatory uncertainty presents a challenge"

As the fight between anti Nuclear and pro nuclear power Germany and France is an ongoing boxing match the massive amount of Power required for their electrolysis plans may make charging a car in the EU rather expensive!

How much Hydrogen is existing use?

On Jeeps. My one drive of a super duper unable to get over a small grass lump still makes me laugh every time I drive past that spot[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

On EVs a Massive spike followed by a massive fall was all to do with hand outs given then taken away :)

"German EV Sales Plummet In September 2023 After Incentive Cuts (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/german-ev-sales-plummet-in-september-2023-after-incentive-cuts/ar-AA1if4Yy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=89735ded8f1d4432a6cfe2dd499e3db5&ei=7)" Link (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/german-ev-sales-plummet-in-september-2023-after-incentive-cuts/ar-AA1if4Yy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=89735ded8f1d4432a6cfe2dd499e3db5&ei=7)

Ying and Yang?

EDIT some of my nuclear miners use ISR ( In Situ Recovery some times called In-situ leaching (ISL))

A rumor has it that tech is about to start in some other mining sectors including one or two list. Thats is not really just a rumor :)

ISR mining is MUCH cheaper than huge conventional open pit mines. I doesn't work everywhere as it requires a certain geology.

Edit 2 Giant Lithium miner blocked from buying an Australian asset by a person here (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/lithium-giant-albemarle-abandons-4-230027694.html)

other share holders my not be as happy with knocking back a 100% gain from the rejected offer!

[NavyDiver]

Big News Trend setters[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

"Victorian electric car owners win High Court challenge against controversial tax" Victorian electric car owners win High Court challenge against controversial tax - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-18/high-court-judgement-on-victorian-ev-drivers-tax/102989942)
Do I get my money back now[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Can that crew take the Vic gov to High court re Doctors, Dentists, Physios....... and Payroll tax next?

[cjc_td5]

Big News Trend setters[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

"Victorian electric car owners win High Court challenge against controversial tax" Victorian electric car owners win High Court challenge against controversial tax - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-18/high-court-judgement-on-victorian-ev-drivers-tax/102989942)
Do I get my money back now[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Can that crew take the Vic gov to High court re Doctors, Dentists, Physios....... and Payroll tax next?

So it looks only the Feds can levy a user tax like that?
So the Feds need to abolish all fuel excise and levy a per km rate on ALL vehicles in OZ, to make it fair for everyone.... EVs are getting a "free ride" on our roads at the moment....

[NavyDiver]

So it looks only the Feds can levy a user tax like that?
So the Feds need to abolish all fuel excise and levy a per km rate on ALL vehicles in OZ, to make it fair for everyone.... EVs are getting a "free ride" on our roads at the moment....

I didn't mind paying Chris. The roads here are shocking. A HUGE pothole nearby is close to ripping the front end out of small and medium tire sized transport!

It is the Constitution not me that choose that point which has also impacted on Petrol /road and EV taxes!

If I get a refund of the illegal Victorian tax I promise to buy some fill to fix that bloody hole myself[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[Tombie]

Did a longer drive in our car yesterday. May I ask that you as your mate to look at the energy monitor screen, and click "rated" and since charge? That should show where the power is going.

If there isn't any update in there then do the battery check in service menu.

Of course the easiest thing is to spray the FUD!

I’ll ask him, no worries.

He likes the car, when he’s in the City it’s his primary choice.
He even likes its highway comfort / quiet.

It’s just the range anxiety that’s of concern to him as time goes on.

I’m assuming a lot of it is environmental- we get seriously strong head winds for the run down the gulf each day, in an ICE vehicle it’s an easy 10-15% increase in fuel burn for that leg. Easily offset by a top up if required at PtAA. Not so easy in EVs at the moment.

We are definitely at the edge of EV range (currently) from Adelaide though.

FUD? Really?

[Homestar]

We are definitely at the edge of EV range (currently) from Adelaide though.


Some would say the edge of nowhere. [emoji56].

In the High Court ruling, good call IMO. It does mean the current fuel excise should be axed long term though and a fairer system bought in. I don’t think we need to get in a twist about how long that takes as wide spread EV usage in Australia is still decades away.

[Arapiles]

EVs are getting a "free ride" on our roads at the moment....

Well, no - since fuel excise goes into the government's overall income and isn't directly linked to financing roads.

[4bee]

Some would say the edge of nowhere. [emoji56].

In the High Court ruling, good call IMO. It does mean the current fuel excise should be axed long term though and a fairer system bought in. I don’t think we need to get in a twist about how long that takes as wide spread EV usage in Australia is still decades away.

No need to be ****ing nasty. :bat: Adelaide is an excellent city in which to live. I'm referring to your original post before it was edited.

[4bee]

I didn't mind paying Chris. The roads here are shocking. A HUGE pothole nearby is close to ripping the front end out of small and medium tire sized transport!

It is the Constitution not me that choose that point which has also impacted on Petrol /road and EV taxes!

If I get a refund of the illegal Victorian tax I promise to buy some fill to fix that bloody hole myself[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]


GOOD FOR YOU. A couple of 1/2 bags of Dolomite rubble should do it. + a good Tamper downer.[bigrolf]

[Homestar]

No need to be ****ing nasty. :bat: Adelaide is an excellent city in which to live. I'm referring to your original post before it was edited.

I wasn't referring to Adelaide - I quite like it - it's on the way to nowhere, not at the edge of it. Think about where Tombie lives... [bigwhistle] I'll cop an earful from him now, but that's fine as well. [biggrin]

[Tombie]

I wasn't referring to Adelaide - I quite like it - it's on the way to nowhere, not at the edge of it. Think about where Tombie lives... [bigwhistle] I'll cop an earful from him now, but that's fine as well. [biggrin]

I like the edge of nowhere…

Flinders, Gawler Ranges, Melrose, Wilmington, Pt Lincoln, Tumby, Streaky Bay…

Some of the most amazing places are just a stones throw away…

And I’m 200mtrs from the beach [emoji41]

[jon3950]

I like the edge of nowhere…

Flinders, Gawler Ranges, Melrose, Wilmington, Pt Lincoln, Tumby, Streaky Bay…

Some of the most amazing places are just a stones throw away…

And I’m 200mtrs from the beach [emoji41]

Every time I spend 3 days driving to the start of my holiday I find myself in furious agreement with you.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/tTmeNizYWG4'si=dJZ-qYVW5loxy33U

[scarry]

James May Explains the Model S' Terrible Flaw... | James May Explains the Model S' Terrible Flaw... | By DRIVETRIBE (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=7217459398280876)

Hopefully they have listened to customers,and modified the later models of the vehicle.

[NavyDiver]

Some days I think the sun will never stop shining on me! EV battery essential is Graphite despite being called Lithium[biggrin] A Hydrogen stock that pumps out 1 tonne of Hydrogen and 2 tonnes of Graphite is my smile today! Russia has made me a LOT via the other energy source I like a LOT.

Analysis:China's graphite curbs will accelerate plans around alternatives - CNA (https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/analysischinas-graphite-curbs-will-accelerate-plans-around-alternatives-3862201)

A gift to at least 2 companies I hold[biggrin][biggrin] "China's move on Friday to curb exports of graphite, a key electric vehicle battery material, will only accelerate efforts to develop alternative sources and materials, but that will take time, industry executives and analysts said.
China, the world's largest graphite producer and exporter, will require export permits as of Dec. 1 for some graphite products, including spherical graphite used by automakers. It refines more than 90 per cent of the world's graphite into the material used in almost all EV battery anodes, which is the negatively charged portion of a battery."

[Captain_Rightfoot]

https://youtu.be/tTmeNizYWG4'si=dJZ-qYVW5loxy33U

Listening to a guy lecturing from the seat of an old volvo is always fraught.. but he has noticed industry trends.

Basically legacy manufacturers were forced into EV's at gun point by Tesla. So they did half a job and it's costs them a lot to build them so they've priced them sky high. Which was fine when there were only a few options. And now the chinese are here and no one wants to buy their insanely priced EV's.

We're seeing this in Australia. Hyundai released the Ioniq twins. Tesla cut prices and they have gone from conducting ballots to see who can buy one to dipping their toes into the world of discounting. Ford have just released the Mustang with cray cray pricing. When EV's were new and a few people wanted them at whatever the cost this kind of business plan worked. But alas those days are over. They are either going to have to be content with selling in niche volumes, cut their prices to be competitive in the market place, or just give up and hope the whole EV thing just goes away.

EV's are hitting the mainstream. It looks like it's going to be Tesla and the chinese from here on.

In reality Legacy is done. If there is a brand you've always wanted to buy from don't leave it too long!


https://youtu.be/CFibm96jz5g'si=ARyNFPvkyKRW_6e_

[Tombie]

Some days I think the sun will never stop shining on me! EV battery essential is Graphite despite being called Lithium[biggrin] A Hydrogen stock that pumps out 1 tonne of Hydrogen and 2 tonnes of Graphite is my smile today! Russia has made me a LOT via the other energy source I like a LOT.

Analysis:China's graphite curbs will accelerate plans around alternatives - CNA (https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/analysischinas-graphite-curbs-will-accelerate-plans-around-alternatives-3862201)

A gift to at least 2 companies I hold[biggrin][biggrin] "China's move on Friday to curb exports of graphite, a key electric vehicle battery material, will only accelerate efforts to develop alternative sources and materials, but that will take time, industry executives and analysts said.
China, the world's largest graphite producer and exporter, will require export permits as of Dec. 1 for some graphite products, including spherical graphite used by automakers. It refines more than 90 per cent of the world's graphite into the material used in almost all EV battery anodes, which is the negatively charged portion of a battery."

Graphite is ~30% of the average EV battery.
Still need the Cu, Li2CO3, Mn, Co and Ni in significant quantities [emoji41]

[Tins]

Listening to a guy lecturing from the seat of an old volvo is always fraught.. but he has noticed industry trends.

He posted today from a L322. Does that make him more or less fraught? What an absurd observation.




EV's are hitting the mainstream. It looks like it's going to be Tesla and the chinese from here on.





Meanwhile, Chines EV makers are going bankrupt. Britain is winding back it's net zero guff. So we'll see.

[Tins]

Graphite is ~30% of the average EV battery.
Still need the Cu, Li2CO3, Mn, Co and Ni in significant quantities [emoji41]

With all the environmental consequences that involves. Not to mention child slavery.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

He posted today from a L322. Does that make him more or less fraught? What an absurd observation.

Meanwhile, Chines EV makers are going bankrupt. Britain is winding back it's net zero guff. So we'll see.

Re the youtuber.. he might be ok.. but the internet is a funny place. "Second hand car dealer doesn't like EV's" seems like a good title. That is of course not to say he's not wrong, but "EV's are in some way rubbish" does seem to be a constant theme of his past videos.

One thing he did say that surprised me was about the cost of EV charging in the UK. I'm really no expert in this. I fired up plug share and looked at the charging situation in London. Fast chargers everywhere, and they mostly seemed to be less than .30 a kwh. BP pulse was 12p with a subscription, and 25p contactless. Tesla superchargers seem to be similar to here.. 67p.

I checked and UK petrol/diesel prices are 150-170 ish.

Compare Petrol and Diesel Prices | Fuel Prices UK | Cheapest Petrol and Diesel Prices | Fleet News (https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/costs/fuel-prices/)

So even if you can't charge at home it doesn't look like the statement that EV's cost more to charge than ICE is really backed up. Even if your ev used 2kw or 3kwh (worst case) to the litre it would seem it would very much be worst case for the energy costs to be in the same ball park.

[NavyDiver]

187476
90% of the worlds refined Graphite followed by a Sunny day and spoiled my weekend or is that spoilt rotten by ??? EV CCS charger popping up in Port Fairy opened today. Smug mug me did not need any. 96% to 98% first ever Fast charge this far off the well beaten EV track for this black duck or anyone. Dad in pic was most confused.
One of the Graphite NVX up 16% and my favorite poo yarn HZR only 7.14%. NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!!!

The new car is still floating out side PF heads. Planning a raid next week to Pick it up if the sun is hidden for a day or two.


The Child labor mess is DRC and only one of those John. Several battery types are NOT using that bit any more!

DRC is an amazing case study- I would love to visit. Hope corruption can be eliminated and a peaceful life can occur for them!

[Tombie]

Not quite, Mozambique and several other nations are being damaged (socially and environmentally) due to the chase for these elements.

Just doesn’t rank in the western world.

[NavyDiver]

Not quite, Mozambique and several other nations are being damaged (socially and environmentally) due to the chase for these elements.

Just doesn’t rank in the western world.


Yes- Sorry. that is a mess too. Child slavery/labor is a shocker! Add slavery to that as well!

Back to EV News "(Reuters) -The U.S. Justice Department has sought documents and issued subpoenas to Tesla as it scrutinizes the automaker's driver assistance system Autopilot and vehicle driving range, among other issues, the company said on Monday.
Tesla said in a regulatory filing it has received requests for information "including subpoenas, from the DOJ. These have included requests for documents related to Tesla’s Autopilot and FSD features" and other requests "associated with personal benefits, related parties, vehicle range and personnel decisions.""

EJ may or may not be upset. [biggrin]

[Tins]

Not quite, Mozambique and several other nations are being damaged (socially and environmentally) due to the chase for these elements.

Just doesn’t rank in the western world.

The child slave labour in the cobalt mines in the Congo is well known, if only people looked.

[Tombie]

The child slave labour in the cobalt mines in the Congo is well known, if only people looked.

It is, what isn’t so commonly known is the corruption by local officials.
Things like having rivers dammed at the local request effectively cutting off water downstream to several villages (Mozambique)

[Tins]

It is, what isn’t so commonly known is the corruption by local officials.
Things like having rivers dammed at the local request effectively cutting off water downstream to several villages (Mozambique)

Funny how this stuff is precisely what people protested about oil companies doing many decades ago, but modern day evangelists turn a blind eye to when it suits them.

[NavyDiver]

Funny how this stuff is precisely what people protested about oil companies doing many decades ago, but modern day evangelists turn a blind eye to when it suits them.

Large Story on Fishing/food and Indonesian Nickel processing over the last week John. ABC story link incase you missed it (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/the-rush-for-electric-vehicles-is-changing-lives-for-better-and-worse-in-indonesias-nickel-industry/ar-AA1iCNnD)


One of the Best and most Enviromental clean Rare Earths Processors is an Aussie. Misinformation by a very dirty Processors and funding for ANTI types is happily moving some of it back from Malaysia to Australia[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Indonesia news was not happy with E-J!! "Tesla Sideswipes Indonesia's EV Supply Chain Dream" Tesla decided to put its plant in Malysia rather than in Indonesia! I wonder if they might have as much trouble as Lynas corp did with that??

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Funny how this stuff is precisely what people protested about oil companies doing many decades ago, but modern day evangelists turn a blind eye to when it suits them.
No cobalt or nickel in my battery. [bigwhistle]

EDIT: But there is both in the car - when my phone is in there.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

if you go to drive.com.au right now - on their news page they have 6/30 of the stories about Toyotas electrification. The stories are "we've been building EV's forever" and "everyone else's EV's are rubbish and ours will be better". Intermixed with more EV concept cars. This seems like marketing have been tasked with dissuading people from "making the jump" to other brands.

Uh oh.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROtRiO5rECk

[Tins]

No more lifts from you, James.


https://youtu.be/Tm3gvN3oSrM'si=MYTvdZDPutSMtNBc

[Tins]

No cobalt or nickel in my battery.



You sure about that? I guess yours could be LFP, but the majority are not.


The company also notes that in the coming years, [B]its absolute cobalt demand will increase, because the production growth of batteries and vehicles is forecasted to outpace the overall rate of cobalt reduction on a per-cell basis.*



As for the phone, I suppose mine does as well, and my cordless tools. All in all I guess I would have about 1/100th of 1% of ONE EV batteries worth of cobalt in my entire home/garage. And absolutely none in my cars. The only batts in them are lead acid.

* Source: (https://insideevs.com/news/587455/batteries-tesla-using-electric-cars/#:~:text=Battery%20cell%20chemistry&text=The%20three%20main%20cathode%20types,lithium% 20iron%20phosphate%20(LFP))

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You sure about that? I guess yours could be LFP, but the majority are not.

*



As for the phone, I suppose mine does as well, and my cordless tools. All in all I guess I would have about 1/100th of 1% of ONE EV batteries worth of cobalt in my entire home/garage. And absolutely none in my cars. The only batts in them are lead acid.

* Source: (https://insideevs.com/news/587455/batteries-tesla-using-electric-cars/#:~:text=Battery%20cell%20chemistry&text=The%20three%20main%20cathode%20types,lithium% 20iron%20phosphate%20(LFP))
Actually.. the two biggest selling EV's in the country are the BYD Atto 3 and the Model 3 RWD and Model Y RWD and they are all LFP. In the tesla it's only the longrange and performance ones that are NMC.

Personally I really like having LFP as you don't have to sweat charging them to 100%. In fact - Tesla advise you to do that weekly. They are also supposed to be very low degradation.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/o3aSy6NVvrQ'si=ajj9bmWHR3QFPO6y

[Tins]

Actually.. the two biggest selling EV's in the country are the BYD Atto 3 and the Model 3 RWD and Model Y RWD and they are all LFP. In the tesla it's only the longrange and performance ones that are NMC.

Personally I really like having LFP as you don't have to sweat charging them to 100%. In fact - Tesla advise you to do that weekly. They are also supposed to be very low degradation.

BYD are gaining such a good reputation in China.....


https://youtu.be/9zK6wxAt_EA'si=vYU63dr1nBh9CPpG


https://youtu.be/qKa8mVOe5so'si=ljz1zzLybpK-f6p-


https://youtu.be/-B5sIm_JmB4'si=kWlLYdMM6bBo3_LP

[RANDLOVER]

Jeep's are a huge scam but suckers seem to fall for that one as well.

Now it seems to be official Jeep distributor pledges to address concerns over complaints handling procedures - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-27/sc-jeep-man/103024156)



The ACCC investigated Jeep importer and distributor Stellantis Australia
The company has given a court-enforceable undertaking to improve how it handles customer complaints
Ashton Wood, who famously destroyed his family's Jeep, was "surprised" to learn the importer was still having issues.

[Tins]

I suppose this one will be called "fraught" cos he's sitting in an MG.


https://youtu.be/2q21RfuXeHw'si=V9o32KBk3jnBIN3j

[Homestar]

I suppose this one will be called "fraught" cos he's sitting in an MG.


https://youtu.be/2q21RfuXeHw'si=V9o32KBk3jnBIN3j

That’s not the greatest video I have to say and is just scare mongering. Claims on the title are wrong as well - in his opening sentence he says 90% of EV makers could go bankrupt because of this buy the title suggests they already have.

Re car parks - I think plenty will be looking at this at the moment and their Insurers. The company next door to ours has recently banned EV’s parking on the property against the wall of the factory. There’s 2 Teslas that now have to park on the street where 200 trucks a day navigate a very tight bit of road and bits of mirrors are scattered along the gutter. But of a knee jerk reaction IMO - There’s an old Corvette that a guy drives there a couple of days a week and that’s leaked petrol onto the driveway more than once - I think that’s more likely to go up than the EV’s…

[Tins]

Take it or leave it...


https://youtu.be/8dDEuU2gR3A'si=xY_ST88VBX0P8MZ6

[Tins]

That’s not the greatest video

Fair enough. He's just a bloke with an opinion.... but he often quotes stats that are of interest.
FWIW, I share them because they may have things that are of interest.



There’s an old Corvette that a guy drives there a couple of days a week and that’s leaked petrol onto the driveway more than once - I think that’s more likely to go up than the EV’s…

Perhaps, but that's just poor maintenance, which a whole other can of worms when considering EVs. Most people have nfi about potential poor maintenance issues with EVs as they age.

[Homestar]

Fair enough. He's just a bloke with an opinion.... but he often quotes stats that are of interest.
FWIW, I share them because they may have things that are of interest.




Perhaps, but that's just poor maintenance, which a whole other can of worms when considering EVs. Most people have nfi about potential poor maintenance issues with EVs as they age.

That’s very true - and given so many think EV’s are ‘maintenance free’ - can only imagine what the brakes and suspension will be like a few years outside their warranty when they don’t want to pay the OEM to service them any more.

[vnx205]

Take it or leave it...


https://youtu.be/8dDEuU2gR3A'si=xY_ST88VBX0P8MZ6

I think that given their low credibility, it might be better to leave it until their claims are verified by more credible sources.

Redacted - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/redacted-bias/)

187550

[vnx205]

Take it or leave it...


https://youtu.be/8dDEuU2gR3A'si=xY_ST88VBX0P8MZ6

I think that given their low credibility, it might be better to leave it until their claims are verified by more credible sources.

Redacted - Bias and Credibility - Media Bias/Fact Check (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/redacted-bias/)

187550

[NavyDiver]

This is interesting. Reducing Prices and repair cost for Tesla

Two years ago, Hertz pledged to order 100,000 Tesla EVs by the end of 2022 (https://insideevs.com/news/543058/tesla-100000-hertz-rental-fleet/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). The company now has around 35,000 Tesla vehicles in its fleet – far shy of its original target. And judging by what was said on the third-quarter earnings call, Hertz doesn't plan to hit that target too soon. CEO Stephen Scherr said, "our in-fleeting of EVs will be slower than our prior expectations."
The rental car company posted lower-than-expected margins for the previous quarter, and Scherr said EV repairs and Tesla (https://insideevs.com/tesla/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) price cuts affecting the resale value of Hertz's EVs by about one-third were the two main causes.


Resale or trade in value for mine is 32k - It cost 42K. Fairly happy with 75% after 53000km on the clock now. New cheap Chinese cars are still at the value end of this market. The MG XS is base 41K top 55k an MG4 is about the same price range

[Captain_Rightfoot]

BYD are gaining such a good reputation in China.....


https://youtu.be/9zK6wxAt_EA'si=vYU63dr1nBh9CPpG


https://youtu.be/qKa8mVOe5so'si=ljz1zzLybpK-f6p-


https://youtu.be/-B5sIm_JmB4'si=kWlLYdMM6bBo3_LP

Thank the dear lord that the internet doesn't car when a Land Rover catches fire!.

I was walking around town one day and a Freelander spontaneously started combusting and people couldn't even be bothered peeing on it.

[Saitch]

Not to mention 'SHC'!

'Spontaneous Human Combustion'!

[4bee]

Thank the dear lord that the internet doesn't car when a Land Rover catches fire!.

I was walking around town one day and a Freelander spontaneously started combusting and people couldn't even be bothered peeing on it.


Nor would I when one considers the difference in Firefighting Equipment & a Bloke's impediment.


Why would anyone risk a Barbecued Todger,certainly not me & I doubt many of you would who are more suited to a Pedal powered Kiddy Car fire? [bigrolf]

[scarry]

HUGE NEWS! Toyota CEO Shocking WARNING To All EV Makers! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/wPas5xJTTUY'si=RPmrHCmwhgH_d86A)

[Tins]

Thank the dear lord that the internet doesn't car when a Land Rover catches fire!.

.

So, two wrongs make a right in your book? They don't in mine.

BTW, the Diesel Evoque sponcom saga gets lots of coverage. Thing is though, they are easy to extinguish, and so far haven't locked their occupants inside a mobile crematorium, as some Teslas appear to have.

[Arapiles]

I was at the Tokyo Motor Show yesterday (which is officially now the Tokyo Mobility Show, but everyone ignores that and continues calling it the Motor Show) and BYD had a very large stand that was actually one of the most popular and crowded of the stands there - which suggests trouble for the Japanese manufacturers in the near future. On the basis of what was there yesterday the Japanese companies are way behind on EVs and not really in the running. Honda, for example, had a spiffy Honda-white petrol generator that they had set up to charge an electric delivery van - but I had a closer look and it was just my red Honda generator with a coat of white paint and why would the van need to be recharged remotely .... In contrast the Japanese parts manufactuers are all over batteries and had all sorts of tech on show. There was also one group that were doing EV conversions of 60 series Land Cruisers, another on Fiat Bambinos - range 23km presumably. I'll post some photos next week.

Edit: was a 60 series Land Cruiser, not an 80.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

HUGE NEWS! Toyota CEO Shocking WARNING To All EV Makers! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/wPas5xJTTUY'si=RPmrHCmwhgH_d86A)
Blah blah blah.. more Toyota FUD. What do you do if you've been caught out and don't have what the market wants to buy? Fire up the FUD hose and try and spray as many as you can in the hope that you won't continue to bleed customers while you try and catch up.

Toyota have been inundating the local press with "Please wait.. don't buy an EV now!" articles over the last little while.

I thought this was a particularly desperate attempt.

The car Toyota wants to kickstart electric sales in Australia | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/the-car-toyota-wants-to-kickstart-electric-sales-in-australia)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So, two wrongs make a right in your book? They don't in mine.

BTW, the Diesel Evoque sponcom saga gets lots of coverage. Thing is though, they are easy to extinguish, and so far haven't locked their occupants inside a mobile crematorium, as some Teslas appear to have.
I park my cars under my house. If a car catches fire the house is done. I can assure you - the way that freelander burned it would make no difference. ICE cars spontaneously catching fire it not really a new thing. It's massively common. It's just not newsworthy. Unlike EV fires.. which are world press worthy.

But by all means spray the FUD!

EV's pose less fire risk than ICE cars (1/20th!). Yes when they go they can be harder to stop. It was one of the reasons why I was happy to have an LFP battery which aren't predisposed to "thermal runaway" events. Everything is a risk in life.

Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher (https://theconversation.com/electric-vehicle-fires-are-very-rare-the-risk-for-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles-is-at-least-20-times-higher-213468#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20report%20notes%20Nati onal,miles%20(30.6%20million%20kilometres).)

[scarry]

Blah blah blah.. more Toyota FUD. What do you do if you've been caught out and don't have what the market wants to buy?


They haven't and never will be.
The biggest manufacturers are not stupid,they know the global new vehicle market better than anyone else.

Lets just wait and see what happens,not listen to keyboard warriors that think they know but generally have no idea what the manufacturers are actually doing.

The manufacturers that are already getting caught out are those,mainly European,that were beating their chests about going to all EV by a certain date.
The backflips are already starting.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

They haven't and never will be.
The biggest manufacturers are not stupid,they know the global new vehicle market better than anyone else.

Lets just wait and see what happens,not listen to keyboard warriors that think they know but generally have no idea what the manufacturers are actually doing.

The manufacturers that are already getting caught out are those,mainly European,that were beating their chests about going to all EV by a certain date.
The backflips are already starting.
I disagree. The biggest manufacturers have been caught by surprise by EV's. Yes the europeans in particular - but also the Japanese who are just starting to feel the pain.

Certainly if you look at how hard Toyotas marketing people are working on this they are very concerned. Not sure about the engineering side.

[scarry]

I disagree. The biggest manufacturers have been caught by surprise by EV's. Yes the europeans in particular - but also the Japanese who are just starting to feel the pain.

Certainly if you look at how hard Toyotas marketing people are working on this they are very concerned. Not sure about the engineering side.

We will have to agree to disagree.....[biggrin]

[Tins]

I park my cars under my house. If a car catches fire the house is done. I can assure you - the way that freelander burned it would make no difference. ICE cars spontaneously catching fire it not really a new thing. It's massively common. It's just not newsworthy. Unlike EV fires.. which are world press worthy.

I have worked in the automotive and transport industries all of my adult life and I have never seen a car or truck spontaneously combust. Plenty of fires, all of them caused by some failure of system, usually poor maintenance or physical damage. Of course, these can happen to anything.


But by all means spray the FUD!

Believe that if you like. All I'm doing is passing on information for you to take or leave. I am on record on this forum as having no skin in this game, as there is absolutely no chance of me buying an EV OR a Land Rover product from the last decade. Even the last of the real Defenders. Stupid prices stop me on that last one. I am also on record here as saying that, taken in isolation, EVs are great urban cars. But I can't take them in isolation. They are absolutely impractical for my purposes, and their environmental credentials are pure fabrication. I despise anything that attracts huge subsidies for an item only the better heeled can afford to buy at the expense of those who cannot, and impose massive imposts on essential infrastructure. I do not give a toss if you like them or not. Buy as many as you like. But it's you that seems to feel the need to defend your choices.


EV's pose less fire risk than ICE cars (1/20th!). Yes when they go they can be harder to stop. It was one of the reasons why I was happy to have an LFP battery which aren't predisposed to "thermal runaway" events. Everything is a risk in life.

Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher (https://theconversation.com/electric-vehicle-fires-are-very-rare-the-risk-for-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles-is-at-least-20-times-higher-213468#:~:text=The%20Tesla%20report%20notes%20Nati onal,miles%20(30.6%20million%20kilometres).)

That article is a maze of statistical gibberish. Such articles, for and against, abound. This claim


Despite these incidents, electric vehicle battery fires are rare. Indeed, the available data indicate the fire risk is between 20 and 80 times greater for petrol and diesel vehicles.

is not backed up except by EVFiresafe data, which of course is unbiased. Which is it, 20 or 80?? Or neither? It is a rather large discrepancy in an article purported to be factual.

Like I said, buy what you like. I would prefer if you didn't ask me to pay for a portion of the purchase, or subsequent recharging. But you do.

[Tins]

Hmm. Cadogen covers this as well, but obviously I can't link to that.


https://youtu.be/_6dFS2huPH4'si=vKQw6aJta71_UzJT

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/3LMeqKJQSSc'si=N9KzuMtkC25LGJoN

[RANDLOVER]

You sure about that? I guess yours could be LFP, but the majority are not.

*



As for the phone, I suppose mine does as well, and my cordless tools. All in all I guess I would have about 1/100th of 1% of ONE EV batteries worth of cobalt in my entire home/garage. And absolutely none in my cars. The only batts in them are lead acid.

* Source: (https://insideevs.com/news/587455/batteries-tesla-using-electric-cars/#:~:text=Battery%20cell%20chemistry&text=The%20three%20main%20cathode%20types,lithium% 20iron%20phosphate%20(LFP))

Oh, no, there goes your house/garage insurance if insurers enforce the same rules, they are alleging to have in mind for parking garages due to EV fires.

[Tins]

This is long, and it's part two. I have skimmed sections. The parts I have watched contain no expletives. If I have missed one I apologise.
I find it interesting due to the problems encountered in the UK, where there is a far greater coverage of charging stations than here.



https://youtu.be/dBYK9A1pHBY'si=UDCGHSBTO-fLUuHg

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I

Like I said, buy what you like. I would prefer if you didn't ask me to pay for a portion of the purchase, or subsequent recharging. But you do.

Just for my interest - were you ok with us paying tradies to buy diesel utes?

Attention Required! | Cloudflare (https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2021/06/11/utes-tax-write-offs)

And are you ok with the cost burdon and illness and death caused by pollution? I can't be bothered trawling for it but it's significant.

Air pollution in NSW causes 603 premature deaths and costs $4.8bn a year, study finds | Sydney | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/mar/15/air-pollution-in-nsw-causes-603-premature-deaths-and-costs-48bn-a-year-study-finds#:~:text=7%20months%20old-,Air%20pollution%20in%20NSW%20causes%20603%20prema ture%20deaths%20and,bn%20a%20year%2C%20study%20fin ds&text=Air%20pollution%20in%20New%20South,a%20long%2 Dterm%20government%20study.)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is long, and it's part two. I have skimmed sections. The parts I have watched contain no expletives. If I have missed one I apologise.
I find it interesting due to the problems encountered in the UK, where there is a far greater coverage of charging stations than here.



https://youtu.be/dBYK9A1pHBY'si=UDCGHSBTO-fLUuHg

I only watched a little bit of it too - but seems like the usual FUD. Let's compare one of the cheapest to run diesel cars with one of the most expensive short range EV's - and then let's charge it at the most expensive places and whine about how long it takes. They were a bit light on details, but it would appear the Taycan used just under 19kwh/100 - which is around 6 more than a model Y (and probably even more than a model 3 which would have been equivalent).

But let's reinforce the haters! Farm the clicks.

[Homestar]

I only watched a little bit of it too - but seems like the usual FUD. Let's compare one of the cheapest to run diesel cars with one of the most expensive short range EV's - and then let's charge it at the most expensive places and whine about how long it takes. They were a bit light on details, but it would appear the Taycan used just under 19kwh/100 - which is around 6 more than a model Y (and probably even more than a model 3 which would have been equivalent).

But let's reinforce the haters! Farm the clicks.

There you go again - anyone that doesn't love EV's is automatically a hater.

So far from the truth it's no funny - I like EV's, but I don't see the practicality of them beyond affluent city dwellers and can't work out how we're all going to be able to charge them if we all had one (As an Electrical Engineer so please don't post any garbage about this) - so I'm a hater?

Give me strength...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There you go again - anyone that doesn't love EV's is automatically a hater.

So far from the truth it's no funny - I like EV's, but I don't see the practicality of them beyond affluent city dwellers and can't work out how we're all going to be able to charge them if we all had one (As an Electrical Engineer so please don't post any garbage about this) - so I'm a hater?

Give me strength...

So we've posted a video saying that EV's cost more to drive than a diesel car. It's in the UK but this is an Australian forum.

I live in Queensland. The rough charging prices are as follows.

Tesla 70c (peak but less off peak)
BP Pulse 55c
Queensland Electric super highway 30c with 20% off for RACQ members. Ultra rapid 210kwh is 60c (again with 20% off).

My model Y uses around 13 kwh per 100k.

So lets say I pay 50c which is probably more than I actually would but let's go with that. So it's going to cost me $6.50 per 100k. Probably I'm going to use the QESH stations at 30c once I run out of home electrons so it's more likely going to be $3.90 minus the RACQ discount.

So If you can tell me what medium large SUV drive for less than that in fuel costs in QLD I'll retract my FUD statement! In fuel costs alone you'd be really working to manage to get an EV to cost more than an ICE car.

Posting a video saying "Ev's cost more to fuel than ICE cars" is just FUD which someone who's not familiar with EV's might not be able to unpack. Is the purpose of this forum to educate and inform or just dump on something you don't like?

For the record my defender at 12 l/100 and 2.25 pl is $27 per hundred. Is that a fair comparison? Probably not. But it's just as stupid as comparing a Porsche Taycan to a BMW 5 series diesel.

[Tins]

But let's reinforce the haters! Farm the clicks.

He's presenting accurate findings as pertain to him. But don't let that get in the way of defending your choices.

In the conclusion vid the Taycan cost more than double the Beemer for the journey, took more than six hours longer, and didn't actually finish.

[Tins]

Costly to buy and maintain, difficult to insure, anxiety-inducing and
hazardous to run and park, and rapidly depreciating in value: what’s not to
like?

Read it here. (https://maseratiguyorg.files.wordpress.com/2023/11/ev_follies.pdf)

[scarry]

Those that think the Japs are "behind" in the EV race are dreaming,they are just going about business differently,and not following the sheep,racing to produce EVs, that many don't want,for whatever reason.

It would also be interesting to know how many EVs would have been sold without government subsidies,over the last few years.

Evs should have been market driven,not Govt mandated or subsidised.

Toyota’s EV policy will only make it stronger - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyotas-ev-policy-will-only-make-it-stronger-143193/?fbclid=IwAR3tAsHeA1eNXHkxyEfGdPtCOz29NpI6rUva-zOEkTpXQms2f5gW_TIpF-I)

EV market could become the ‘next big flop’: Economist | Fox Business (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ev-market-next-big-flop-economist?intcmp=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR32APWj1ykGAiTQJUmfVOpMsJ05OLXtgp0fMEKTQ UnwM8wIaK2OPWcTRXg)

[Arapiles]

Those that think the Japs are "behind" in the EV race are dreaming,they are just going about business differently,and not following the sheep,racing to produce EVs, that many don't want,for whatever reason.

It would also be interesting to know how many EVs would have been sold without government subsidies,over the last few years.

Evs should have been market driven,not Govt mandated or subsidised.

Toyota’s EV policy will only make it stronger - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyotas-ev-policy-will-only-make-it-stronger-143193/?fbclid=IwAR3tAsHeA1eNXHkxyEfGdPtCOz29NpI6rUva-zOEkTpXQms2f5gW_TIpF-I)

EV market could become the ‘next big flop’: Economist | Fox Business (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ev-market-next-big-flop-economist?intcmp=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR32APWj1ykGAiTQJUmfVOpMsJ05OLXtgp0fMEKTQ UnwM8wIaK2OPWcTRXg)


First, "Japs" is a racist term and I'm surprised that you think that it's OK to use.

Second, I don't know if your comment was aimed at me because of my post about the Tokyo Mobility Show, but let me set you straight on a few things:

1. I've lived in and out of Japan for the last 34 years - at one point I'd spent more of my adult life in Japan than Australia;

2. I speak Japanese and went to Uni here;

3. I was an adviser to several large Japanese car-companies in my area of professional expertise, and also to several European makers operating in Japan - so I know the market and the companies in a way that I suspect few non-Japanese would: certainly not the Australian car journalists who are largely clueless;

4. I've been to multiple Tokyo Motor Shows, beginning in 1991 - I'm in Japan at present, primarily to go to the Motor Show, which I went to on Monday. I'll probably go again tomorrow.

So, in my honest opinion - the Japanese car companies are ****ed. Unlike other years there was nothing of particular interest on any of their stands. There was nothing that pointed to any thinking about the future. Three even had "sky cars", basically large drones, which will never be a thing and suggest that they had no other ideas. The most popular thing on the Honda stand wasn't even a car, it was a mocked-up fueselage of a Honda Jet - the queue to sit in that was up to 75 minutes. The foreign journalists get carted around on days that are closed to the public so have no idea what the Japanese public are interested in. From my observations, they were interested in the new GTR, the new MX-5 / RX-9 (looked like an RX to me, and nothing like an MX-5), the Honda/Sony collaboration and interestingly, the new Toyota Century SUV, which is Toyota's take on a Bentagya. Even more interestingly, I haven't even seen it mentioned in any foreign coverage of the show. And the Japanese public were really, really interested in the BYD stand - it was 6 people deep around every vehicle. And the presenters on the BYD stand I spoke to were multi-lingual when I don't think I spoke to a single person on any of the Japanese stands that could converse in English.

There were also some broader issues that point to systemic issues in Japan - prior to going to the show the TMS website said that you could buy tickets at the gate - which is what I've done every other time I've gone. It also said that the gates opened at 9.00am. When I got there it turned out that you couldn't buy tickets at the gate and I had go on-line on my phone and buy them - and then get a physical ticket from a 7-11 (cf, why couldn't I show them an electronic one or QR code, which is standard pretty much everywhere these days) which promptly closed when myself and about a hundred Japanese attendees tried to do so. And the gates didn't open at 9.00am, they opened at 10.00am. It was a complete ****ing shemozzle. There would've been 5,000 people lined up there at 10.00am.

I had dinner the following night with an older Japanese friend who's very connected and I basically told him the above and he just winced. He, and a lot of other Japanese, are very worried about Japan's direction at present and the fact that Toyota is so far behind in what's looking to be the future is of huge concern to them. It seems to me that it's a re-run of Japan's previous disastrous backings-of-the-wrong technology: for example, Betamax/Laserdisc/minidisc instead of VHS and their Japan-only phone tech vs GSM. The Japanese call it the Galapagos syndrome. So, if Europe turns all electric, and the EU comes to terms with the Chinese EV manufacturers, who are vastly more cost-competitive than any of the Japanese makers, what exactly will Toyota be selling? Betamax cars?

[RANDLOVER]

Those that think the Japs are "behind" in the EV race are dreaming,they are just going about business differently,and not following the sheep,racing to produce EVs, that many don't want,for whatever reason.

It would also be interesting to know how many EVs would have been sold without government subsidies,over the last few years.

Evs should have been market driven,not Govt mandated or subsidised.

Toyota’s EV policy will only make it stronger - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyotas-ev-policy-will-only-make-it-stronger-143193/?fbclid=IwAR3tAsHeA1eNXHkxyEfGdPtCOz29NpI6rUva-zOEkTpXQms2f5gW_TIpF-I)

EV market could become the ‘next big flop’: Economist | Fox Business (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ev-market-next-big-flop-economist?intcmp=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR32APWj1ykGAiTQJUmfVOpMsJ05OLXtgp0fMEKTQ UnwM8wIaK2OPWcTRXg)

The "market" is exactly what got us into this climate predicament in the 1st place and at least one of the purveyors of fossil fuel spookily predicted global warming way back in the 70's and I'd be surprised if the other "fossil fool" companies didn't have similar knowledge just like "big tobacco". Exxon scientists accurately predicted global warming from burning fossil fuels. : NPR (https://www.npr.org/2023/01/12/1148376084/exxon-climate-predictions-were-accurate-decades-ago-still-it-sowed-doubt#:~:text=Race-,Exxon%20scientists%20accurately%20predicted%20glo bal%20warming%20from%20burning%20fossil%20fuels,co ntinued%20climate%2Ddenying%20policy%20efforts.)

[simonmelb]

I disagree - leaving the transformation to emissions free transport must be lead / incentivised by governments, just like large public infrastructure projects like efficiency nationwide train systems.

Am currently in Italy having travelled for 4 weeks through Germany and Switzerland. The large number of compact EV / small family cars is very noticeable, as are chargers at most supermarket car parks and charges in the street for onsite parking.

Many of these I suspect wouldn’t be profitable without subsidies. And subsidies are needed to counteract the still in place even bigger fossil fuel subsidies and cash cow oil companies!

Photo I took outside your typical ~300 Yo brewery in Swabian part of Germany 😊


Those that think the Japs are "behind" in the EV race are dreaming,they are just going about business differently,and not following the sheep,racing to produce EVs, that many don't want,for whatever reason.

It would also be interesting to know how many EVs would have been sold without government subsidies,over the last few years.

Evs should have been market driven,not Govt mandated or subsidised.

Toyota’s EV policy will only make it stronger - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/toyotas-ev-policy-will-only-make-it-stronger-143193/?fbclid=IwAR3tAsHeA1eNXHkxyEfGdPtCOz29NpI6rUva-zOEkTpXQms2f5gW_TIpF-I)

EV market could become the ‘next big flop’: Economist | Fox Business (https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/ev-market-next-big-flop-economist?intcmp=fb_fnc&fbclid=IwAR32APWj1ykGAiTQJUmfVOpMsJ05OLXtgp0fMEKTQ UnwM8wIaK2OPWcTRXg)

[simonmelb]

More very typical chargers in Aldi car park and side of st near Essen, Germany.

[3toes]

Just watching the news here and there is a story on house fires. Seems that there is an average of 2 fires a week in London alone caused by bicycle batteries

They also quoted the numbers of resulting deaths but I missed that number. Deaths probably not directly comparable to Australia as here most houses have stairs beside front door which is where the bicycle will have been stored. This resulting in a fire trap for occupants as their escape route is blocked and stairs are on fire

[Tins]

More very typical chargers in Aldi car park and side of st near Essen, Germany.

I'm sure, given the coming winter, with people unable to heat their homes due to questionable energy policies, the folks in Germany can take comfort in the knowledge that the more well to do can have such ready access to car chargers.

[Saitch]

First, "Japs" is a racist term and I'm surprised that you think that it's OK to use.

Second, I don't know if your comment was aimed at me because of my post about the Tokyo Mobility Show, but let me set you straight on a few things:

1. I've lived in and out of Japan for the last 34 years - at one point I'd spent more of my adult life in Japan than Australia;

2. I speak Japanese and went to Uni here;

3. I was an adviser to several large Japanese car-companies in my area of professional expertise, and also to several European makers operating in Japan - so I know the market and the companies in a way that I suspect few non-Japanese would: certainly not the Australian car journalists who are largely clueless;

4. I've been to multiple Tokyo Motor Shows, beginning in 1991 - I'm in Japan at present, primarily to go to the Motor Show, which I went to on Monday. I'll probably go again tomorrow.

So, in my honest opinion - the Japanese car companies are ****ed. Unlike other years there was nothing of particular interest on any of their stands. There was nothing that pointed to any thinking about the future. Three even had "sky cars", basically large drones, which will never be a thing and suggest that they had no other ideas. The most popular thing on the Honda stand wasn't even a car, it was a mocked-up fueselage of a Honda Jet - the queue to sit in that was up to 75 minutes. The foreign journalists get carted around on days that are closed to the public so have no idea what the Japanese public are interested in. From my observations, they were interested in the new GTR, the new MX-5 / RX-9 (looked like an RX to me, and nothing like an MX-5), the Honda/Sony collaboration and interestingly, the new Toyota Century SUV, which is Toyota's take on a Bentagya. Even more interestingly, I haven't even seen it mentioned in any foreign coverage of the show. And the Japanese public were really, really interested in the BYD stand - it was 6 people deep around every vehicle. And the presenters on the BYD stand I spoke to were multi-lingual when I don't think I spoke to a single person on any of the Japanese stands that could converse in English.

There were also some broader issues that point to systemic issues in Japan - prior to going to the show the TMS website said that you could buy tickets at the gate - which is what I've done every other time I've gone. It also said that the gates opened at 9.00am. When I got there it turned out that you couldn't buy tickets at the gate and I had go on-line on my phone and buy them - and then get a physical ticket from a 7-11 (cf, why couldn't I show them an electronic one or QR code, which is standard pretty much everywhere these days) which promptly closed when myself and about a hundred Japanese attendees tried to do so. And the gates didn't open at 9.00am, they opened at 10.00am. It was a complete ****ing shemozzle. There would've been 5,000 people lined up there at 10.00am.

I had dinner the following night with an older Japanese friend who's very connected and I basically told him the above and he just winced. He, and a lot of other Japanese, are very worried about Japan's direction at present and the fact that Toyota is so far behind in what's looking to be the future is of huge concern to them. It seems to me that it's a re-run of Japan's previous disastrous backings-of-the-wrong technology: for example, Betamax/Laserdisc/minidisc instead of VHS and their Japan-only phone tech vs GSM. The Japanese call it the Galapagos syndrome. So, if Europe turns all electric, and the EU comes to terms with the Chinese EV manufacturers, who are vastly more cost-competitive than any of the Japanese makers, what exactly will Toyota be selling? Betamax cars?

I'm not gainsaying anything here, Arapiles, but it's ironic that 'Betamax' v 'VHS' is mentioned. 'Beta' was far superior to 'VHS' and it was only the marketing (and the good old US of A) that made VHS more popular.

[Tins]

'Beta' was far superior to 'VHS' and it was only the marketing (and the good old US of A) that made VHS more popular.

Hmm....


https://youtu.be/hWl9Wux7iVY'si=fmrZgt5-IMKw34U9

[Saitch]

Double Hmmm.
What Is the Difference Between Betamax and VHS?
– Kodak Digitizing (https://kodakdigitizing.com/blogs/news/what-is-the-difference-between-betamax-and-vhs#:~:text=Well%2C%20basically%2C%20Betamax%20was %20better,VHS%20by%20about%20two%20years).

[NavyDiver]

Double Hmmm.
What Is the Difference Between Betamax and VHS?
– Kodak Digitizing (https://kodakdigitizing.com/blogs/news/what-is-the-difference-between-betamax-and-vhs#:~:text=Well%2C%20basically%2C%20Betamax%20was %20better,VHS%20by%20about%20two%20years).

It was an interesting fight and transition. Now the Video shops some of whom had both Betamax and VHF moved to CD, VCD, DVD then Blue Ray are all deader than the Dodo as well.

Back to EV news. My long delayed new car is sitting outside Port Phillip heads with 6 other car carriers has landed and left. May be a Monday pick up.

Rego, Insurance and more changes. The almost former mg XS EV did Port fairy- Hamiliton return with almost nothing left.

Back in Melbourne after its last long drive slowed by a 30-minute fast charge or 2[bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

He's presenting accurate findings as pertain to him. But don't let that get in the way of defending your choices.

In the conclusion vid the Taycan cost more than double the Beemer for the journey, took more than six hours longer, and didn't actually finish.
See that's really deceptive. You know it's not right but you defend it. That's what FUD is at it's core.

You can't prove my example of what conditions are like here is wrong, because it's not wrong. EV's are massively cheaper to fuel in Australia. Even if you can't charge at home.

As I sit here.. our tesla has done 6500k. It's cost $350 in electricity this far (all at home). I reckon that's less than a third of what our 1.4l golf was costing us. Insanity.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

First, "Japs" is a racist term and I'm surprised that you think that it's OK to use.

Second, I don't know if your comment was aimed at me because of my post about the Tokyo Mobility Show, but let me set you straight on a few things:

1. I've lived in and out of Japan for the last 34 years - at one point I'd spent more of my adult life in Japan than Australia;

2. I speak Japanese and went to Uni here;

3. I was an adviser to several large Japanese car-companies in my area of professional expertise, and also to several European makers operating in Japan - so I know the market and the companies in a way that I suspect few non-Japanese would: certainly not the Australian car journalists who are largely clueless;

4. I've been to multiple Tokyo Motor Shows, beginning in 1991 - I'm in Japan at present, primarily to go to the Motor Show, which I went to on Monday. I'll probably go again tomorrow.

So, in my honest opinion - the Japanese car companies are ****ed. Unlike other years there was nothing of particular interest on any of their stands. There was nothing that pointed to any thinking about the future. Three even had "sky cars", basically large drones, which will never be a thing and suggest that they had no other ideas. The most popular thing on the Honda stand wasn't even a car, it was a mocked-up fueselage of a Honda Jet - the queue to sit in that was up to 75 minutes. The foreign journalists get carted around on days that are closed to the public so have no idea what the Japanese public are interested in. From my observations, they were interested in the new GTR, the new MX-5 / RX-9 (looked like an RX to me, and nothing like an MX-5), the Honda/Sony collaboration and interestingly, the new Toyota Century SUV, which is Toyota's take on a Bentagya. Even more interestingly, I haven't even seen it mentioned in any foreign coverage of the show. And the Japanese public were really, really interested in the BYD stand - it was 6 people deep around every vehicle. And the presenters on the BYD stand I spoke to were multi-lingual when I don't think I spoke to a single person on any of the Japanese stands that could converse in English.

There were also some broader issues that point to systemic issues in Japan - prior to going to the show the TMS website said that you could buy tickets at the gate - which is what I've done every other time I've gone. It also said that the gates opened at 9.00am. When I got there it turned out that you couldn't buy tickets at the gate and I had go on-line on my phone and buy them - and then get a physical ticket from a 7-11 (cf, why couldn't I show them an electronic one or QR code, which is standard pretty much everywhere these days) which promptly closed when myself and about a hundred Japanese attendees tried to do so. And the gates didn't open at 9.00am, they opened at 10.00am. It was a complete ****ing shemozzle. There would've been 5,000 people lined up there at 10.00am.

I had dinner the following night with an older Japanese friend who's very connected and I basically told him the above and he just winced. He, and a lot of other Japanese, are very worried about Japan's direction at present and the fact that Toyota is so far behind in what's looking to be the future is of huge concern to them. It seems to me that it's a re-run of Japan's previous disastrous backings-of-the-wrong technology: for example, Betamax/Laserdisc/minidisc instead of VHS and their Japan-only phone tech vs GSM. The Japanese call it the Galapagos syndrome. So, if Europe turns all electric, and the EU comes to terms with the Chinese EV manufacturers, who are vastly more cost-competitive than any of the Japanese makers, what exactly will Toyota be selling? Betamax cars?

Thanks for the objective take. Remember this thread is actually "People who hate EV's yelling at people".

I really do think any objective look at the situation.. the Japanese car industry has really really missed the boat on this. I honestly think they have only recently realised this too.

Their dedicated EV platforms aren't due to really come on line until later this decade. So they've got to survive the onslaught of the Chinese until then. Somehow they've got to keep making enough money to develop new platforms, new supply chains, new factories ETC. And what's more - when they do "pivot' their cars are going to have to be competitive not with cars we have now, but where the competition is then. And they have to be able to make them profitably.

Yes they have a lot of assets, but much of that is in producing things that are declining in demand. So they also have to feed their debt in the meantime.

I've no doubt that the smaller Japanese manufacturers will be subsumed into other organisations, and it's likely the car industry will need government support.

So in the meantime - all they have got is to spray FUD to try and buy time.

[Homestar]

Thanks for the objective take. Remember this thread is actually "People who hate EV's yelling at people".

I really do think any objective look at the situation.. the Japanese car industry has really really missed the boat on this. I honestly think they have only recently realised this too.

Their dedicated EV platforms aren't due to really come on line until later this decade. So they've got to survive the onslaught of the Chinese until then. Somehow they've got to keep making enough money to develop new platforms, new supply chains, new factories ETC. And what's more - when they do "pivot' their cars are going to have to be competitive not with cars we have now, but where the competition is then. And they have to be able to make them profitably.

Yes they have a lot of assets, but much of that is in producing things that are declining in demand. So they also have to feed their debt in the meantime.

I've no doubt that the smaller Japanese manufacturers will be subsumed into other organisations, and it's likely the car industry will need government support.

So in the meantime - all they have got is to spray FUD to try and buy time.

Seems you’re the only one yelling. I’ve said time and again I don’t hate EV’s yet you tar me with the same brush - EV hater - just because I disagree they are viable for the majority.

More like EV lovers yelling at the world.

[Tombie]

EV owners. The new Vegan [emoji56]

FUD - an EV owners equivalent of “Boomer” [emoji48]

[Arapiles]

I'm not gainsaying anything here, Arapiles, but it's ironic that 'Betamax' v 'VHS' is mentioned. 'Beta' was far superior to 'VHS' and it was only the marketing (and the good old US of A) that made VHS more popular.

Oh, absolutely, and you'd be astonished by how advanced my Japanese phones were - in 2001 I had a 3G(+) phone with an e-SIM, these little embedded programmes which they called "Applis" but which are now called "Apps", a virtual assistant (which true to form, was simply annoying), high resolution camera and video, and I remember my TMT colleagues in Europe being gobsmacked by it. But it was using the Japanese standard, which only worked in Japan and so they were never sold overseas.

[RANDLOVER]

Double Hmmm.
What Is the Difference Between Betamax and VHS?
– Kodak Digitizing (https://kodakdigitizing.com/blogs/news/what-is-the-difference-between-betamax-and-vhs#:~:text=Well%2C%20basically%2C%20Betamax%20was %20better,VHS%20by%20about%20two%20years).

That link is light on facts, and I don't see how a smaller tape could hold longer recordings and Betamax vs. VHS Tapes: What is the Difference? (foreverstudios.com) (https://foreverstudios.com/betamax-vs-vhs/) seems to agree, also I'd heard the US porn industry preferred VHS which killed Betamax, and I still like to think that as VHS was cheaper. Also, I think by the time "Titanic" came out people were using DVD's. Actually, not much in it, released on VHS 1 Sept 1998 and on DVD 31 Aug 1999. There was also a Betamax to VHS adaptor but not the other way around due to the size difference, same with NATO vs Russian 7.62 ammo.

Now to get this thread back on track, EV's were available in the days of VHS that is mid 90's in California mostly....Who Killed the Electric Car? (2006) - IMDb (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0489037/)

[vnx205]

This is long, and it's part two. I have skimmed sections. The parts I have watched contain no expletives. If I have missed one I apologise.
I find it interesting due to the problems encountered in the UK, where there is a far greater coverage of charging stations than here.



https://youtu.be/dBYK9A1pHBY'si=UDCGHSBTO-fLUuHg

So they have established that an expensive EV that sells in small numbers is not the best choice for a trip the length of the UK.

So what! Perhaps there are a handful of people who regularly do a 900 mile trip in the UK who will find their test useful.

For the millions of people in the UK who will never do that, it is hardly relevant.

What are the chances of that pair doing a much more useful comparison involving the sort of trips that the vast majority of people do?

Are they likely to do a similar distance but involving traffic lights, roundabouts and intersections, and doing just a dozen or two miles each day?

Many more people would benefit from such a comparison.

Otherwise their conclusion is no more helpful than proving that a Suzuki Swift can't fit seven passengers while towing a 3,500 kg boat or that a Kenworth prime mover won't fit in the average suburban garage.

Why are so many people contriving tests that simple establish that EVs are not great for some of the things that a small number of people need to do?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So they have established that an expensive EV that sells in small numbers is not the best choice for a trip the length of the UK.

So what! Perhaps there are a handful of people who regularly do a 900 mile trip in the UK who will find their test useful.

For the millions of people in the UK who will never do that, it is hardly relevant.

What are the chances of that pair doing a much more useful comparison involving the sort of trips that the vast majority of people do?

Are they likely to do a similar distance but involving traffic lights, roundabouts and intersections, and doing just a dozen or two miles each day?

Many more people would benefit from such a comparison.

Otherwise their conclusion is no more helpful than proving that a Suzuki Swift can't fit seven passengers while towing a 3,500 kg boat or that a Kenworth prime mover won't fit in the average suburban garage.

Why are so many people contriving tests that simple establish that EVs are not great for some of the things that a small number of people need to do?

That channel is all about a guy who hates EV's yelling at the world that they are rubbish. The occupants of this thread who also hate EV's frantically repost it, while spraying as much FUD as possible.

I've already explained the reality of charging locally (QLD) but we choose not to deal with reality here. No apology, no response. Whatever. I hope no one who actually wants to reasonably understand EV's listens here!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Seems you’re the only one yelling. I’ve said time and again I don’t hate EV’s yet you tar me with the same brush - EV hater - just because I disagree they are viable for the majority.

More like EV lovers yelling at the world.

Actually - I just don't like people saying things that are untrue. There is a lot of it in this thread.

There is a lot of "I've never owned an EV but trust me I know they are useless/catchfire/environmental disasters/too expensvie/ugly/too small/too big/not enough rage" etc etc.

The reality is lots of people have lots of different needs. For many an EV may be a perfectly suitable thing. Use your empathy, Luke! I do not agree that everyone in Australia needs to have a diesel 4x4 as their primary transport. Let us not forget that up until recently, most vehicles in Australia were passenger cars and everyone managed just fine.

You should also realise that I for one can recognise that not everything EV is ideal and perfect, and they are not nearly suitable for all people or all uses. And it's going to be a long time until that's the case. Just like a Land Rover defender has some really really big positives and negatives.

[Homestar]

Actually - I just don't like people saying things that are untrue. There is a lot of it in this thread.

There is a lot of "I've never owned an EV but trust me I know they are useless/catchfire/environmental disasters/too expensvie/ugly/too small/too big/not enough rage" etc etc.

The reality is lots of people have lots of different needs. For many an EV may be a perfectly suitable thing. Use your empathy, Luke! I do not agree that everyone in Australia needs to have a diesel 4x4 as their primary transport. Let us not forget that up until recently, most vehicles in Australia were passenger cars and everyone managed just fine.

You should also realise that I for one can recognise that not everything EV is ideal and perfect, and they are not nearly suitable for all people or all uses. And it's going to be a long time until that's the case. Just like a Land Rover defender has some really really big positives and negatives.

While you might not agree everyone needs a diesel 4x4 - don’t you think it’s their choice the same as you chose an EV? If an EV suits someone’s needs and budget they’ll buy one, same as a 4x4. Given the numbers of each being sold at the moment then I think most WANT a 4x4? This may well change in years to come but you can’t force people to like something just because you do and no Gubment would be dumb enough to mandate anything in Aus that would take away this choice - it would be political suicide.

[NavyDiver]

While you might not agree everyone needs a diesel 4x4 - don’t you think it’s their choice the same as you chose an EV? If an EV suits someone’s needs and budget they’ll buy one, same as a 4x4. Given the numbers of each being sold at the moment then I think most WANT a 4x4? This may well change in years to come but you can’t force people to like something just because you do and no Gubment would be dumb enough to mandate anything in Aus that would take away this choice - it would be political suicide.
Had a bit of a WOW when a hard core hunter and old Patrol Driver who camps and has a long-distance holiday drive at least once year. The Patrol is parked and moved to 3rd party Fire and theft only. He has a huge grin as the FBT salary sacrifice, some idiot suggested he consider that. He is now ev cruising in a BYD atto 3! He has had more deer, rabbits and roos in the back of his patrol than most people will ever see! Suspect the ATTO 3 may carry a lot [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

He is a BIG gent.

[Tombie]

This was an interesting Ted Talk.
I’ve fact checked some of it, it’s not far off.

The Contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles | Graham Conway | TEDxSanAntonio - YouTube (https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk'si=Gwx16wLUkyUkg-FX)

[NavyDiver]

This was an interesting Ted Talk.
I’ve fact checked some of it, it’s not far off.

The Contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles | Graham Conway | TEDxSanAntonio - YouTube (https://youtu.be/S1E8SQde5rk'si=Gwx16wLUkyUkg-FX)

"NOTE FROM TED: This talk only reflects the speaker's personal views and interpretation. Several claims in this talk lack scientific support. We've flagged this talk because it falls outside the content guidelines TED gives TEDx organizers. TEDx events are independently organized by volunteers. The guidelines we give TEDx organizers are described in more detail here: http://storage.ted.com/tedx/manuals/t.. (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbHRmZGJoM0ZUSnNTaHFKSmtIMWx4YW ZPRzRId3xBQ3Jtc0ttVjFxYlZMVGxTQTVDV2VEdm9IbjQ2TEMt V3NVMWtZTHVlWHdBSVpUZGFScnI5azY1OTFHWkFHYWRhN3ZfQV VHRzlMT2V3VlEzNTd1TllLaHJfTWhqaFlJbXpIYlNPblRDY2py RFoxNzhnN081ZDhHRQ&q=http%3A%2F%2Fstorage.ted.com%2Ftedx%2Fmanuals%2F tedx_content_guidelines.pdf&v=S1E8SQde5rk)"

Of interest to me is some groups who really think reducing population is the best way. As long as that population is some one else of course[biggrin]

The Horse C02 thing was a hoot.

Back to my rotten new car. Phone call from dealer last Friday after the ship was finally in port 7 days before unloading my car. Phone call on Monday saying I would get a call on Wednesday ( Melb Cup holiday in Melb Tuesday )

No calls so I called. No Answer. Tried again a few times before guessing Bloody OPTUS[thumbsupbig]

Drove to Ringwood to be told the car is with them as are a lot of others. It apparently takes 3 hours each to program the cars. Not going to occur yesterday. Advised I was leaving Friday and would appreciate it by then. Email saying its ready Next Monday is not making me smile[bighmmm]

When ordered several months ago I was one of the first to order and put a deposit down. That several must have been given out over the last week is seeming[bighmmm]

First world problem.

The video at about minute 11 noted several items such as new battery technology. Sodium just made it into some, Solidstate is so close I can see examples driving about now! (Not in OZ)

His ending statement "the Future is Electric" could have an amendment. The Future Electric will be Nuclear power or incredibly expensive and part time only.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/FpraaPWV6oc'si=_qmbtdD3Opkvq-XZ

[Tins]

For the millions of people in the UK who will never do that, it is hardly relevant.



The relevance is in the number of people the Taycan driver encountered who were also having huge issues with charging, in the course of a normal day, in a country that is way ahead of us in their infrastructure roll out.

[Tins]

That channel is all about a guy who hates EV's yelling at the world that they are rubbish.



That's tripe, as you'd know if you actually watched the channel. He, like many, don't want to have your choices foisted on him through idiotic gubments chasing fairytales and green votes. Pretty much how I feel.
If you took the time to actually read what is posted here, rather than confect your FUD nonsense, you would see that most of us see good in EVs in their place. That place is not here with me. That's my choice.

[NavyDiver]

EJ may be grumpy

Tesla's Growth Nearly Stalls, Other EV Registrations Double In U.S.: September 2023 SalesSales volume continues to increase year-over-year to around 100,000 units a month.In September, new all-electric car registrations in the United States continued to increase, although the rate of year-over-year expansion recently decreased.
According to the registration data from Experian (via Automotive News (https://www.autonews.com/retail/ev-market-share-robust-pace)), the total number of battery electric car (BEV) registrations during the first nine months of 2023 amounted to 852,904, which is about 61 percent more than a year ago and about 7.4 percent of the total market (up from 5.2 percent at this same time in 2022).



Not surprised. The Tesla disruption has been impressive - will it be long term is the question.

[Tins]

Cadogan's take on the Kia EV9 is pretty funny. He's not my favourite commentator, and obviously I can't link to him.

[Tins]

Actually - I just don't like people saying things that are untrue. There is a lot of it in this thread.



That's an interesting statement, coming as it does from someone who accuses anyone who disagrees with you an "EV hater", disseminating "FUD", and by using strawman argument to deflect.

I am on record as stating I do not hate EVs, and also that the links I provide are of an FYI nature. Take them or leave them. But you choose to attack the messenger.

EVangelists are impossible to debate.

[sashadidi]

This is interesting. Reducing Prices and repair cost for Tesla

Two years ago, Hertz pledged to order 100,000 Tesla EVs by the end of 2022 (https://insideevs.com/news/543058/tesla-100000-hertz-rental-fleet/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). The company now has around 35,000 Tesla vehicles in its fleet – far shy of its original target. And judging by what was said on the third-quarter earnings call, Hertz doesn't plan to hit that target too soon. CEO Stephen Scherr said, "our in-fleeting of EVs will be slower than our prior expectations."
The rental car company posted lower-than-expected margins for the previous quarter, and Scherr said EV repairs and Tesla (https://insideevs.com/tesla/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) price cuts affecting the resale value of Hertz's EVs by about one-third were the two main causes.


Resale or trade in value for mine is 32k - It cost 42K. Fairly happy with 75% after 53000km on the clock now. New cheap Chinese cars are still at the value end of this market. The MG XS is base 41K top 55k an MG4 is about the same price range we had talk with medical assurance (insurance) people here in NZ BYD and telsa premiums are going up due to expensive repairs etc as bodywork like bumpers etc with all their inbuilt sensors are so expensive,he mentioned a client had a bent suspension arm on a Byd, no single parts at this stage so you only have the option at this stage of literally replacing that whole suspension unit, rods brakes ,mounts etc with 2 month wait and $6000 plus...so no easy simple repairs and tied with expensive sensor components etc
Will ask him next month again when he comes in interesting though.. possible high hidden costs for owners..

[sashadidi]

Not sure if this was posted before .
It appears the cyber truck doesn't as yet seem to have its traction control off road set up too well....

Early days perhaps?


https://youtu.be/u7W6a3thYm8'si=A3ID-vQukO5fy9GA

[Tins]

Tell me this guy hates EVs and is just spreading FUD.

Funny, I carry jumper leads if this happens to me.. or someone else.


https://youtu.be/tLbZt8gV5pM'si=XfJe484kwwQDQ_ux

[Tins]

Tell me this guy hates EVs and is just spreading FUD.

Funny, I carry jumper leads if this happens to me.. or someone else.

If I bought a new, say, Kia petrol or diesel I would want around 5 years out of the battery. Walk out, turn the key, drive off.

Still, he can keep warm while he watches nett flicks. Happy daze.

[Homestar]

EJ may be grumpy

Tesla's Growth Nearly Stalls, Other EV Registrations Double In U.S.: September 2023 Sales

Sales volume continues to increase year-over-year to around 100,000 units a month.

In September, new all-electric car registrations in the United States continued to increase, although the rate of year-over-year expansion recently decreased.
According to the registration data from Experian (via Automotive News (https://www.autonews.com/retail/ev-market-share-robust-pace)), the total number of battery electric car (BEV) registrations during the first nine months of 2023 amounted to 852,904, which is about 61 percent more than a year ago and about 7.4 percent of the total market (up from 5.2 percent at this same time in 2022).



Not surprised. The Tesla disruption has been impressive - will it be long term is the question.

The writings been on the wall for some time that Tesla will likely go tits up at some point in the next 5 years - if/how how soon remains to be seen. Their early business model was never based on selling cars but carbon credits. As other OEM's reduced the amount they needed as they bring their own EV offerings online this has hurt Telsas revenue and they now need to have the cars make them a profit - which they still don't currently do and as most car manufactures know is bloody hard to do at the best of times. I'm sure there will be some Gubment money pointed their way like the rest of the industry at some point but while they were leaders in the industry I don't see them staying that way or being viable longer term. Just my opinion of course.

[Tins]

The writings been on the wall for some time that Tesla will likely go tits up at some point in the next 5 years - if/how how soon remains to be seen. Their early business model was never based on selling cars but carbon credits. As other OEM's reduced the amount they needed as they bring their own EV offerings online this has hurt Telsas revenue and they now need to have the cars make them a profit - which they still don't currently do and as most car manufactures know is bloody hard to do at the best of times. I'm sure there will be some Gubment money pointed their way like the rest of the industry at some point but while they were leaders in the industry I don't see them staying that way or being viable longer term. Just my opinion of course.

I've said a number of times, if not on this thread then certainly on the Forum, that I consider EVs to be a cul-de-sac. They are a solution search of a problem, have far too much impact on the infrastructure to be sustainable and are about as friendly to the environment as the Exxon Valdez. The production and ultimate disposal of them far outweigh any alleged "savings" they may provide. Even in countries which sensibly use nuclear generation the grid needs huge investment to cope with them.

Interesting point re carbon credits. Tesla, in particular, used Obama era subsidies to become what they are. Without those Tesla would not exist at all. There would be no business case for them. But one can hardly blame Musk et al from taking advantage of gubment stupidity.

I disagree that Tesla will fail though. SpaceX has made amazing advances in hydrogen tech. I see a hydrogen Tesla in the future. That would be interesting. If it happens, of course.

If all the reports of the major manufacturers rethinking their EV plans are true, and also the claims of massive insurance hikes on EVs, then I wouldn't want to be counting on the resale a few years down the track, which will no doubt be in the thinking of the lease companies right now.

Hmm. I wonder whatever happened to 's much speculated Project Titan. It's been ten years since that was mooted. It was very real, with large hirings, notably of car company engineers, including from Tesla. Say what you like about , if any company had the technical, not to mention financial, resources to pull it off it's them. And they haven't. Perhaps they can also see the writing on the wall.

I don't care if people wish to drive an EV. I'm sure they are lovely when they work, and you don't fill the tank and don't use the admittedly amazing performance. What I DO care about is, just like solar panels on your roof ten years ago, the people who can afford to get them expect, through gubment mandate, those who cannot to help pay for them. If the things are so good, let them compete in the market with everyone else. Pay full price for the car, and the fuel? What a novel concept.

[Homestar]

Tell me this guy hates EVs and is just spreading FUD.

Funny, I carry jumper leads if this happens to me.. or someone else.


https://youtu.be/tLbZt8gV5pM'si=XfJe484kwwQDQ_ux

So a stone caused a small hole in the headlight that then let water in frying the headlight - which caused the car to stop working completely. That's a design to be proud of... [bigrolf]

Nearly $2,000 AU to fix - ouch...


https://youtu.be/clVvNINoKrY'si=YCg52PXXgpG7UbRf

[scarry]

So a stone caused a small hole in the headlight that then let water in frying the headlight - which caused the car to stop working completely. That's a design to be proud of... [bigrolf]

Nearly $2,000 AU to fix - ouch...

Are you sure that is not a JLR ïnnovation they copied......?[bigrolf]

[Tins]

Stone chipped headlight. Never happen in Oz.... Funny though, it does. The polycarbonate headlight on my BA had a hole in it for years. Didn't stop the car. I guess Ford missed an opportunity on that one. Oh, and when it stops lighting up, maybe twice in ten years, H4 globes are available EVERYWHERE. As are batteries.

BTW, my schadenfreude does not mean I hate EVs. In case anyone was wondering.

[Tins]

Are you sure that is not a JLR ïnnovation they copied......?[bigrolf]

Yep. The JLR service people are not "enthusiastic", as he claims the Tesla ones are.

[NavyDiver]

Ship sat out side unable to land for two week. Calls after than are funny. One was could I drive to Melbourne to sign transfer of registration. Not my car or was it?

They registered someone else's car to me[biggrin] Signed then to today and got a text from vic road about me selling/transfering a car I have never seen[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

My Niece suggested I am a bit GAUNT probably due to my running as I eat like a horse. Pic is my dad who I stole from his retirement digs for a day trip. Point Lonsdale Ringwood and back. The GAUNT one is me[biggrin]

The colour was my kids choice!!! Better than my black Disco and MG EXev?

The 150ish km I drove the New mg4 gave me a few nice bits. The regenerative Braking works with the very good adaptive cruise control. It didn't with the prior one. Rear wheel drive was of course better. The wheel slip with the significant torque in the XS front wheel drive will not be missed.

I do not mind being GAUNT. If I was a showoff I could show the BIG bits [thumbsupbig] Sholders and Chest and six pack- I was not being rude[bigrolf]

PS It showed about 500km range when I hoped in. Its down to 250 which is still as much as the car I left in Ringwood showing which never ever got that far[bigwhistle]
PS2. The dealer called me on the way back as they forgot to ask me to sign the documents to transfer the XS to them. Does that mean I own 3 cars today[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

When solid state and the whisper of Hydrogen and Landcruiser get louder it might be a race for more than just me[bigrolf]


187767

PPS I was very surprised by an Engineer advising me he has chosen the same car as me. He is much smarter than I am.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

That's tripe, as you'd know if you actually watched the channel. He, like many, don't want to have your choices foisted on him through idiotic gubments chasing fairytales and green votes. Pretty much how I feel.
If you took the time to actually read what is posted here, rather than confect your FUD nonsense, you would see that most of us see good in EVs in their place. That place is not here with me. That's my choice.

So no reply on the FUD "Ev's are more expensive to fuel" yet?

Or "All EV's are full of cobalt" FUD?

Maybe if you keep at it some will believe you. Me.. I do make an effort to objectively look at things.

I'm not that fussed on being forced to breath known carcinogens either.

Diesel | Cancer Council (https://www.cancer.org.au/cancer-information/causes-and-prevention/workplace-cancer/diesel#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20risk%20of,most%20l ikely%20to%20be%20exposed.)

[Homestar]

So no reply on the FUD "Ev's are more expensive to fuel" yet?

Or "All EV's are full of cobalt" FUD?

Maybe if you keep at it some will believe you. Me.. I do make an effort to objectively look at things.

I'm not that fussed on being forced to breath known carcinogens either.

Diesel | Cancer Council (https://www.cancer.org.au/cancer-information/causes-and-prevention/workplace-cancer/diesel#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20risk%20of,most%20l ikely%20to%20be%20exposed.)

I don’t recall those exact questions being asked but yeah if that have then fine to call them out but you cry FUD on everything that’s bought up that you think is anti EV even when it’s the truth.

“The boy who cried FUD” [emoji6]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don’t recall those exact questions being asked but yeah if that have then fine to call them out but you cry FUD on everything that’s bought up that you think is anti EV even when it’s the truth.

“The boy who cried FUD” [emoji6]
FUD sprayers don't like being called out!

Tell the truth, educate people accordingly and people can make their own mind up.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Tell me this guy hates EVs and is just spreading FUD.

Funny, I carry jumper leads if this happens to me.. or someone else.


https://youtu.be/tLbZt8gV5pM'si=XfJe484kwwQDQ_ux

Meanwhile I've heard multiple reports of people with discoveries and Range Rovers who get cascading whacky faults when 12v batteries aren't right. One gent I know was told by LR he needed a new gearbox. He saw another Brisbane LR specialist who also told him that he needed a new gearbox. In desperation he phoned another LR specialist who told him to "replace the battery". Which saved him a 13k gearbox replacement. I guess that's ok.

Meanwhile one guy in the UK has had a battery fail and the car has told him it needs to be replace. And because people on this thread go looking to reinforce their views there is always someone you can find who will have had something bad to say. In this case scouring the UK looking for horror stories.

Meanwhile I know now 9 people with Teslas personally (and know them well). They've all had their car delivered within the last two years. And the only single "tesla please come and fix it" was one who picked a car up and it had a slow rear window. Which they came and fixed no questions.

The only thing with my car in nearly six months is they sent me a notification in the app that a speaker grill might warp which won't look the best and we'd like to come and replace it so you have a great experience. Arranged in the app and they turned up at home replaced it and was gone in 10 minutes flat. And the other one was perfect I thought..

Man I'll roll those odds any time compared to LR.

[Tins]

I'm not that fussed on being forced to breath known carcinogens either.

Diesel | Cancer Council (https://www.cancer.org.au/cancer-information/causes-and-prevention/workplace-cancer/diesel#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20risk%20of,most%20l ikely%20to%20be%20exposed.)

Best you get rid of the Defender 110 then, and, according to your conscience, best you have it crushed. Can't be passing it on through the market, can you?

[Homestar]

FUD sprayers don't like being called out!

Tell the truth, educate people accordingly and people can make their own mind up.

As an Electrical Engineer all I’ve ever told is the truth. With facts, science and physics - bloody inconvenient for you I’m sure but you can’t dodge them - if you don’t want to hear it or call it out as FUD then there’s nothing else I can do - people are making their minds up - and you seem to get upset this is mostly falling on the ICE side of the fence. If you get upset by this and want to go stick your head back in the sand and pray to Electric Jesus, I’m not stopping you. It is you who’s the FUD sprayer, not I.

Do you have 30 years of Electrical experience with Power systems, generators and power distribution networks? Oh that’s right - that’s me… [emoji6]

[Tins]

Right now I guess all the major car companies are "FUD sprayers" as well. It's all there for those who can be bothered to look. Even Tesla dropped prices, and likely will again. Sounds like FUD to me.

[Tins]

Speaking of diesel and carcinogens. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12700479/NRMA-diesel-powered-electric-car-charging-station-outback-NT-Erldunda.html#:~:text=Since%202017%2C%20EV%20owner s%20have,a%2010%20per%20cent%20discount.)

[scarry]

Speaking of diesel and carcinogens. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12700479/NRMA-diesel-powered-electric-car-charging-station-outback-NT-Erldunda.html#:~:text=Since%202017%2C%20EV%20owner s%20have,a%2010%20per%20cent%20discount.)

Cadogan does a cracker on that piece of infrastructure.

He has all the facts and figures worked out for those EV pioneers,travelling out that way.[bigrolf]

Can't throw up the link due to language.

[4bee]

Ship sat out side unable to land for two week. Calls after than are funny. One was could I drive to Melbourne to sign transfer of registration. Not my car or was it?

They registered someone else's car to me[biggrin] Signed then to today and got a text from vic road about me selling/transfering a car I have never seen[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

My Niece suggested I am a bit GAUNT probably due to my running as I eat like a horse. Pic is my dad who I stole from his retirement digs for a day trip. Point Lonsdale Ringwood and back. The GAUNT one is me[biggrin]

The colour was my kids choice!!! Better than my black Disco and MG EXev?

The 150ish km I drove the New mg4 gave me a few nice bits. The regenerative Braking works with the very good adaptive cruise control. It didn't with the prior one. Rear wheel drive was of course better. The wheel slip with the significant torque in the XS front wheel drive will not be missed.

I do not mind being GAUNT. If I was a showoff I could show the BIG bits [thumbsupbig] Sholders and Chest and six pack- I was not being rude[bigrolf]

PS It showed about 500km range when I hoped in. Its down to 250 which is still as much as the car I left in Ringwood showing which never ever got that far[bigwhistle]
PS2. The dealer called me on the way back as they forgot to ask me to sign the documents to transfer the XS to them. Does that mean I own 3 cars today[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

When solid state and the whisper of Hydrogen and Landcruiser get louder it might be a race for more than just me[bigrolf]


187767

PPS I was very surprised by an Engineer advising me he has chosen the same car as me. He is much smarter than I am.


BLIMEY! Are your jeans a bit loose or were you just happy to see Karen?

BTW, as you know, there are Engineers & Engineers. He may have been a Sewer Engineer.

[Tins]

The colour was my kids choice!!! Better than my black Disco and MG EXev?



If it does turn out to be yours, James, I'm sure you'll get enjoyment out of it, and the colour, well it's different.

But calling it an MG is an absolute travesty.

[scarry]

But calling it an MG is an absolute travesty.

A bit like calling an Epoke a Range Rover,but not as bad.

[Tins]

Imagine it was your shop behind this...

187798

[NavyDiver]

Charged my new one today. Did over 400km. Off to Bendigo tomorrow for a bike ride. "Charging for 58mins, 47.31kWh @ $0.45/kWh $21.29"

I had hoped or informed it would charge at 140 kWh? My bad. It was only a 50kWh charger today. When I get back I'll visit the 350 kWh at Torquay RACV which is near by.

Rear wheel drive is better and the cruise control is much better. Turning of the lane keeping stuff as it scares the pants of me at times it did not need to [thumbsupbig]

Two sailors and a cool 73 year old blindman on bikes- Sounds like the start of a good joke.[bigwhistle]

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/aLtkTp4GVuE'si=bdHQ5Sn7xmu74rNK

[Tins]

Victoria. February. El Nino. 40+°. Strong northerly. TFB. I am not allowed to start my lawnmower, or an angle grinder.

But you are allowed to charge your EV. Start at about 1:20 if the tech stuff is too much FUD.


https://youtu.be/3PHbIaT-TtM'si=bcQDaCofqA3abu6X

[DiscoDB]

You seem to going for Troll status there Tins! [emoji849]

Timely reminder though that charging Lithium-Iron batteries at home can lead to a house fire. E-scooters and e-bikes should never be left to charge overnight or when unattended.

Most EV manufacturers are following China’s lead to move to LFP batteries which are much safer.

EV fires are already very rare when compared to ICE fires, and as the industry moves to safer technology we can expect to see occurrences even less frequent.

But no doubt the consequence can be much higher.

Some good data being tracked by EV FireSafe.

https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_01aa449ee5074086a55cb42aa7603f40.pdf

https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_c25fd371dc4b43849a09d37fa53089f7.pdf

And no - you shouldn’t charge an EV in the bush during fire season. Stick to using proper charging stations. [emoji48]

[NavyDiver]

You seem to going for Troll status there Tins! [emoji849]

Timely reminder though that charging Lithium-Iron batteries at home can lead to a house fire. E-scooters and e-bikes should never be left to charge overnight or when unattended.

Most EV manufacturers are following China’s lead to move to LFP batteries which are much safer.

EV fires are already very rare when compared to ICE fires, and as the industry moves to safer technology we can expect to see occurrences even less frequent.

But no doubt the consequence can be much higher.

Some good data being tracked by EV FireSafe.

https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_01aa449ee5074086a55cb42aa7603f40.pdf

https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_c25fd371dc4b43849a09d37fa53089f7.pdf

And no - you shouldn’t charge an EV in the bush during fire season. Stick to using proper charging stations. [emoji48]

The is a warning out for an Old battery type "Fresh warning of fire risk from recalled home batteries as hot summer loomsThe Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, which just last month issued a fresh warning of “serious risk of injury or death,” says about 8,000 of the affected range of LG manufactured batteries were installed in homes across Australia, with around 6,000 “not yet located.”"

Fresh warning of fire risk from recalled home batteries as hot summer looms - One Step Off The Grid (https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/fresh-warning-of-fire-risk-from-recalled-home-batteries-ahead-of-hot-summer/)


John and I like campfires mor than car fires I hope :)

[Tins]

You seem to going for Troll status there Tins! [emoji849]

Timely reminder though that charging Lithium-Iron batteries at home can lead to a house fire. E-scooters and e-bikes should never be left to charge overnight or when unattended.

Most EV manufacturers are following China’s lead to move to LFP batteries which are much safer.

EV fires are already very rare when compared to ICE fires, and as the industry moves to safer technology we can expect to see occurrences even less frequent.

But no doubt the consequence can be much higher.

Some good data being tracked by EV FireSafe.

https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_01aa449ee5074086a55cb42aa7603f40.pdf

https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_c25fd371dc4b43849a09d37fa53089f7.pdf

And no - you shouldn’t charge an EV in the bush during fire season. Stick to using proper charging stations. [emoji48]

As long as what I post is a true reflection I will wear that epithet with pride.. There is plenty of BS spruiked by the EVangelists. Nothing wrong with a little counter point.

[Tins]

Err, not really......


https://youtu.be/5Fd6C_Tjb5E'si=6eClT9xysfPleoNV

[NavyDiver]

I like this. If you parked your car all day at a servo bowser, I think a tow truck would remove us! Wish all chargers had a big charge for the few but noticeable selfish EV drivers [bigrolf] I think $1 per minute should be $100 per minute after 30 minutes wasting everyone's time[bigwhistle]

"Much like a daycare may sting you for being late to pick up your kids, [B]Tesla will penalise you for being late picking up your car.
The company is rolling out a Supercharger Congestion Fee at its US locations, which at certain locations will replace idle fees.
Electric vehicle (EV) owners will be slugged US$1.00 (A$1.52) for every minute a vehicle remains plugged in at a busy Supercharger when its battery is above 90 per cent.
Owners will receive an alert in the Tesla app and will be given a five-minute grace period to disconnect their vehicle"

[Homestar]

Err, not really......


https://youtu.be/5Fd6C_Tjb5E'si=6eClT9xysfPleoNV

Oh lordy.....

[Tins]

Imagine a family surrounded by acrid white smoke from the beginnings of a battery fire...... Gran in the back... Tech unsavvy folk in the front.


https://youtu.be/Q_Ces3OaOyc'si=rh81E04TmvymublA


https://youtu.be/bMf78i_WN20'si=zvbnqNtWMrvJN2AD

[Tins]

I like this. If you parked your car all day at a servo bowser, I think a tow truck would remove us! Wish all chargers had a big charge for the few but noticeable selfish EV drivers [bigrolf] I think $1 per minute should be $100 per minute after 30 minutes wasting everyone's time[bigwhistle]

"Much like a daycare may sting you for being late to pick up your kids, [B]Tesla will penalise you for being late picking up your car.
The company is rolling out a Supercharger Congestion Fee at its US locations, which at certain locations will replace idle fees.
Electric vehicle (EV) owners will be slugged US$1.00 (A$1.52) for every minute a vehicle remains plugged in at a busy Supercharger when its battery is above 90 per cent.
Owners will receive an alert in the Tesla app and will be given a five-minute grace period to disconnect their vehicle"

Well, that's an enticement to purchase one if ever I saw it.

Although I wish there was a similar scheme for people who leave their car at the pump, go in to pay, and then decide to do their shopping whilst in there.

[RANDLOVER]

Ship sat out side unable to land for two week. Calls after than are funny. One was could I drive to Melbourne to sign transfer of registration. Not my car or was it?

They registered someone else's car to me[biggrin] Signed then to today and got a text from vic road about me selling/transfering a car I have never seen[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

My Niece suggested I am a bit GAUNT probably due to my running as I eat like a horse. Pic is my dad who I stole from his retirement digs for a day trip. Point Lonsdale Ringwood and back. The GAUNT one is me[biggrin]

The colour was my kids choice!!! Better than my black Disco and MG EXev?............

I think the colour suits it and you might even find it is "Electric Blue".

[RANDLOVER]

Imagine a family surrounded by acrid white smoke from the beginnings of a battery fire...... Gran in the back... Tech unsavvy folk in the front...................

Lots of safety experts recommend a Safety Glass Breaker Emergency Hammer Belt Cutter Car House (evaculife.com.au) (https://evaculife.com.au/product/glass-breaker-safety-glass-car-window-belt-cutter-type-1/) even for ICE vehicles.

[3toes]

The local supermarket here enforced a 2 hour parking limit and that includes the electric charging point

They have been fineing people who overstay on basis the charging point is for use while you shopping no different to any other car parking space. This seems fair

Did feel sorry for the those who got fined for being there after hours when they were not open and overstayed the time limit

[scarry]

Down at the local electrical wholesaler,they did a bit of a renovation and re did the lines in the car park.This was done at least six months ago.

The most convenient car park spot is now for charging EVs only.

But there is no charger there,so it is used as normal,for anyone that wants to park there.[bigrolf]

[Tins]

Lots of safety experts recommend a Safety Glass Breaker Emergency Hammer Belt Cutter Car House (evaculife.com.au) (https://evaculife.com.au/product/glass-breaker-safety-glass-car-window-belt-cutter-type-1/) even for ICE vehicles.

Except that mobs like Tesla are going laminated. That little tool won't break a laminated window.

[Tins]

I think the colour suits it and you might even find it is "Electric Blue".

Until it's fire engine red......


Just kiddin', James.

[4bee]

Lots of safety experts recommend a Safety Glass Breaker Emergency Hammer Belt Cutter Car House (evaculife.com.au) (https://evaculife.com.au/product/glass-breaker-safety-glass-car-window-belt-cutter-type-1/) even for ICE vehicles.

Good idea. I have had two but never used in anger. Maybe they are dodgy ?[bigrolf]

[Tombie]

Just buy a spring loaded centre punch.
Far more effective.

[Arapiles]

Just buy a spring loaded centre punch.
Far more effective.

Or one of these:


https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/411HrQ3aUxL._AC_SL1000_.jpg

[Colmoore]

Or one of these:


https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/411HrQ3aUxL._AC_SL1000_.jpg

🤣 akin to the force we use on a slap to kill a mosquito

[Arapiles]

🤣 akin to the force we use on a slap to kill a mosquito

Really? My understanding is that bike thieves use these to smash U-bolts.

Edit:

Like this:

[620] Ramset vs. 1/2” Hardened Steel Shackle (TriMax Max 40 Motorcycle Lock) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj5rnYZwKYc)

And this:

[557] "World&#39;s Toughest Motorcycle Lock" vs. Ramset - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wimo09WV-rY)

[NavyDiver]

Battery balancing surprise yesterday. Plugged in to see the FAST and watched slow. Battery Banks out of whack are a known issue.

BMS systems are interesting. The BMS in the Prior EV was not as involved as this new one.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv5cvrsbsU4

BYD version is possibly a bit better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa8PMZ_nw4I&amp;t=325s


The Charge rate on the ULTRA Fast Charger "350-475kW"

My car slowed it to less than 50kW. IF I had been charging at home via the cars 2kW or the 7kW charge it would have occurred without me noticing.

I would like to be able to schedule this. Yesterday I was not in a hurry. If I was on a long trip I could be caught with an unwanted extra time to do it.

[Colmoore]

Really? My understanding is that bike thieves use these to smash U-bolts.

Edit:

Like this:

[620] Ramset vs. 1/2” Hardened Steel Shackle (TriMax Max 40 Motorcycle Lock) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zj5rnYZwKYc)

And this:

[557] "World&#39;s Toughest Motorcycle Lock" vs. Ramset - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wimo09WV-rY)

My mosquito analogy wasn’t comment on lack of power, actually quite the opposite: we generally use 100’s of times additional force when slapping a fly/mozzie; mostly because it’s more satisfying (except when they land in the region of your groin 🥺🤣)

The Ramset gun is very heavy in comparison with a spring actuated punch, which will do the same thing to toughened glass, not to mention you need dry charges and the noise inside a vehicle would be hideous

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Battery balancing surprise yesterday. Plugged in to see the FAST and watched slow. Battery Banks out of whack are a known issue.

BMS systems are interesting. The BMS in the Prior EV was not as involved as this new one.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv5cvrsbsU4

BYD version is possibly a bit better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa8PMZ_nw4I&amp;t=325s


The Charge rate on the ULTRA Fast Charger "350-475kW"

My car slowed it to less than 50kW. IF I had been charging at home via the cars 2kW or the 7kW charge it would have occurred without me noticing.

I would like to be able to schedule this. Yesterday I was not in a hurry. If I was on a long trip I could be caught with an unwanted extra time to do it.

Tesla recommend to charge LFP to 100 weekly. I'm sure there is cell balancing in play - but everything I've read is it's more because LFP batteries operate in a very small voltage range, so they can't just use voltage to give an estimated battery percentage. So they kind of keep track of incomings and outgoings which may drift in time. So what they are trying to prevent is cars stopping with say 15% indicated charge.

By charging to 100 they are calibrating the BMS. LFP don't mind being fully charged hence the recommendation.

There is chatter that if you aren't too worried about the accuracy of the battery gauge you can probably leave it a bit longer.

We don't drive that much so we'll probably leave it a little longer and just charge regularly to 75. Whenever I have charged to 100% the KW put in has matched the battery gauge precisely. So I don't think it's out much if at all. When the sun is out I just plug it in and tell it to charge slowly to a max of 75. If we are doing a big trip I'll give it a 100% the night before.

[spudfan]

A teething problem no doubt
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/jeep-recalls-wrangler-4xe-for-fire-risk-asks-owners-not-to-charge-battery/ar-AA1kGrFC

[Homestar]

Tesla recommend to charge LFP to 100 weekly. I'm sure there is cell balancing in play - but everything I've read is it's more because LFP batteries operate in a very small voltage range, so they can't just use voltage to give an estimated battery percentage. So they kind of keep track of incomings and outgoings which may drift in time. So what they are trying to prevent is cars stopping with say 15% indicated charge.

By charging to 100 they are calibrating the BMS. LFP don't mind being fully charged hence the recommendation.



Yep, exactly right. We set our BESS systems to usually charge to 90% on each cycle which can be 4 or 5 times a day depending on the site. We have an exercise clock set internally in the BMS to take this to 100% once every 2 weeks - it will run the Gen until the BMS drops into float then resets the battery percent to 100. They do drift due to small errors in the calculations with current in and out over time. They can get 10 or 15% out in a month or so if left to only go to 90%.

[Tins]

Another teething problem.


https://youtu.be/liPm6OKPsB0'si=NAQvA81qqN4RHI3n

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Another teething problem.


https://youtu.be/liPm6OKPsB0'si=NAQvA81qqN4RHI3n

An almost every day occurrence for Diesel trucks. [bigsmile] It didn't look like that was overly easy to extinguish...

9News - Latest news and headlines from Australia and the world (https://www.9news.com.au/videos/truck-fire-shuts-down-m-1-motorway/cjlct805g00330hqradvqrslu)

[PhilipA]

Maybe for very old dunger diesel trucks but not brand new ones.
Regard PhilipA

[Homestar]

Yes, both ICE and EV vehicle catch fire, for me it’s more about how hard an EV fire is to put out, how much hotter it burns and how toxic the smoke is.

Can’t imagine this has helped Janus’s business as both Janus and Cement Australia have been on the front foot spruiking this thing recently. Bet they go quiet for a bit now although I see the truck in question is still on Janus’s website - they probably should have pulled that part of their site for a bit…

[PhilipA]

Do you guys realise that this is the second Janus truck that has gone up.
Cadogan has the details.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Anyone who thinks a diesel truck would burn like that is kidding themselves.

[NavyDiver]

Anyone who thinks a diesel truck would burn like that is kidding themselves.

hmmm- Diesel superphosphate truck fire[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] or world trade centre bomb? IT was a big bang John!

back to ev ing[biggrin] Queenscliff, Ballarat now to Port Fairy. Reversing course in a few days. Suspect I drove an electric car past 20ish or more Wind Farms. I attempted to measures several HV transmission lines again. Not anti electric clearly in a EV! The price of our power is NOT cheaper due to free wind or free sunshine! The twits who claimed it would be should be standing with flags at each of those huge windmills. Or a DUNCE hat on!

We are lucky in our small state to have almost short HV transmission line distances!! The $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ I drove past today are paid for by[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]


The new MG is like the prior one not even remotely close to its range statement of 470KM. It may be in the city. It does last twice as long as the prior one and OMG Charging if needed and it wasn't in Marybough, Avoca, Beaufort and Port Fairy. The Charge points are growing faster than rabbits at the moment. All except Ballarat are 50kWh. All good until the next gen arrives in 2025 and beyond! The US based Solid State battery company jumped 14% last night. Note it is $60 less than I sold them for! Not a investment tip!

My current cheap EV can charge are 170ish kWh. The solid state battery may be 10 time that! Not enough time to get a coffee IF the charge capacity is available!

Car got a 1500 km service in Ballarat. It was a free check! The Next service is 40,000 km! Should I be worried [thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

hmmm- Diesel superphosphate truck fire[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] or world trade centre bomb? IT was a big bang John!

The new MG is like the prior one not even remotely close to its range statement of 470KM.

Sure,but that tuck was only carrying cement.

If the MG range is that bad compared with the specs,isn't it false advertising?

Not long ago a guy took i think it was Mitsubishi to court as he could not get the specified fuel usage out of his new vehicle and won.

It was an ICE vehicle though.[bighmmm]

[Tins]

hmmm- Diesel superphosphate truck fire[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] or world trade centre bomb? IT was a big bang John!





Made some pretty big holes in some stone in QLD using Nitropril and some gelignite, James. Thing is, you could do pretty much anything to the stuff with little risk. Needs a detonator to set it off, and most folk don't carry those in their Kenworths.

it should also be noted that it wasn’t the diesel that went bang, James.

[Homestar]

My current cheap EV can charge are 170ish kWh. The solid state battery may be 10 time that! Not enough time to get a coffee IF the charge capacity is available!



Might be in a handful of locations but forget it out of the city - that's more power for 1 charger than most towns consume. I just did a job where there was 16,750KVA of generation installed (16 x 20' contanerised generators which were consuming around 3,000 litres of diesel an hour between them) - so less than 10 chargers worth at say 1,500KW for these super duper solid state batteries if they were all being used together.

We were running the towns of Charlton, Wycheproof, Boort, Wedderburn, St Arnaud, Donald and surrounds with them during a 66KV maintenance outage with these gens - Donald and St Arnaud were drawing around 1,600KW most of the day - 2 decent towns - same as 1 charger going full boar... There isn't capacity anywhere on this system to install even one charger above around 350KW. I just can't see what difference solid state batteries will make as their charging speed will be limited by the chargers - which is limited by the network. I can also assure you there are no plans to upgrade any of these lines to cope with EV's either as there is no return on investment and the networks are privately owned.

It goes back to what I've been saying for ages - where is the power coming from for this 'EV Revolution' - and even if it can be made, how is it going to get where it's needed? We're not talking about millions of dollars to make this work but 100's of Billions. Project Energy connect - which would be a drop in the ocean compared to what would be required to bring EV's to everyone is going to nudge 3 billion and that's just one backbone upgrade for the renewables that's coming, nothing to get any extra power to towns, just so we can start switching off the coal and getting the power from new locations back to the terminal stations.

Sorry, rant over - I'm sure someone will call me an EV hater again for pointing out inconvenient pesky facts...

[Tins]

Sorry, rant over - I'm sure someone will call me an EV hater again for pointing out inconvenient pesky facts...

Not facts, Gav. FUD, remember?

[DiscoDB]

If the MG range is that bad compared with the specs,isn't it false advertising?


I guess you would have to prove that the range quoted was not to the stated standard. For example MG actually state the range for the MG Excite 64 is 450km (WLTP) ‡ (and on the website they even add the words “up to” to cover their butt).

‡Range based on Worldwide Harmonised Light-Duty Vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP) static laboratory combined average city and highway cycle test, which measures, energy consumption, range and emissions in passenger vehicles, designed to provide figures closer to real-world driving behaviour. Actual driving results will vary depending on various factors such as driving style, type of journey, environment, battery age and condition, use of vehicle features, operating, and climate conditions.

It is the same test cycle used for ICE’s but really is a meaningless test if you want to know the actual drivable range. I personally believe they should just quote the energy consumption per 100km.

So NavyDiver - what energy usage per 100km are you achieving when you do your country driving?

[Tins]

Just so you can see that I'm aware that diesel trucks can burn. Former employer had this. A faulty repair caused a fuel leak, possibly directly onto the turbo but I don't know that for certain. Note the condition of the fuel tank.

BTW, the cab was damaged but not destroyed. It was sold.

187960187961

[scarry]

Might be in a handful of locations but forget it out of the city - that's more power for 1 charger than most towns consume. I just did a job where there was 16,750KVA of generation installed (16 x 20' contanerised generators which were consuming around 3,000 litres of diesel an hour between them) - so less than 10 chargers worth at say 1,500KW for these super duper solid state batteries if they were all being used together.

We were running the towns of Charlton, Wycheproof, Boort, Wedderburn, St Arnaud, Donald and surrounds with them during a 66KV maintenance outage with these gens - Donald and St Arnaud were drawing around 1,600KW most of the day - 2 decent towns - same as 1 charger going full boar... There isn't capacity anywhere on this system to install even one charger above around 350KW. I just can't see what difference solid state batteries will make as their charging speed will be limited by the chargers - which is limited by the network. I can also assure you there are no plans to upgrade any of these lines to cope with EV's either as there is no return on investment and the networks are privately owned.

It goes back to what I've been saying for ages - where is the power coming from for this 'EV Revolution' - and even if it can be made, how is it going to get where it's needed? We're not talking about millions of dollars to make this work but 100's of Billions. Project Energy connect - which would be a drop in the ocean compared to what would be required to bring EV's to everyone is going to nudge 3 billion and that's just one backbone upgrade for the renewables that's coming, nothing to get any extra power to towns, just so we can start switching off the coal and getting the power from new locations back to the terminal stations.

Sorry, rant over - I'm sure someone will call me an EV hater again for pointing out inconvenient pesky facts...

No hater and no rant,it is reality.

Many don’t seem to understand how much power they consume when charging.

[NavyDiver]

Might be in a handful of locations but forget it out of the city - that's more power for 1 charger than most towns consume. I just did a job where there was 16,750KVA of generation installed (16 x 20' contanerised generators which were consuming around 3,000 litres of diesel an hour between them) - so less than 10 chargers worth at say 1,500KW for these super duper solid state batteries if they were all being used together.

We were running the towns of Charlton, Wycheproof, Boort, Wedderburn, St Arnaud, Donald and surrounds with them during a 66KV maintenance outage with these gens - Donald and St Arnaud were drawing around 1,600KW most of the day - 2 decent towns - same as 1 charger going full boar... There isn't capacity anywhere on this system to install even one charger above around 350KW. I just can't see what difference solid state batteries will make as their charging speed will be limited by the chargers - which is limited by the network. I can also assure you there are no plans to upgrade any of these lines to cope with EV's either as there is no return on investment and the networks are privately owned.

It goes back to what I've been saying for ages - where is the power coming from for this 'EV Revolution' - and even if it can be made, how is it going to get where it's needed? We're not talking about millions of dollars to make this work but 100's of Billions. Project Energy connect - which would be a drop in the ocean compared to what would be required to bring EV's to everyone is going to nudge 3 billion and that's just one backbone upgrade for the renewables that's coming, nothing to get any extra power to towns, just so we can start switching off the coal and getting the power from new locations back to the terminal stations.

Sorry, rant over - I'm sure someone will call me an EV hater again for pointing out inconvenient pesky facts...
Rant on. Fully agree the sods claiming they are doing LOTS when its not even a Scratch on what is needed now and a fly speck on the real need for Heat pumps and other electrification required. My Nuclear stocks are all telling me what the rest of the world is doing. 20lbs 3 years ago. $40lbs 2 years ago and USD$60 Dec 2022 now over $80lbs and not stopping!

NOT Investments advise. I may build off grid soon as the unaccountability of many such as todays BIG Battery $$$$$$$$ for a few people for a few hours only made me think of Grumpy Old or Current affair rant myself [biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

Yes, both ICE and EV vehicle catch fire, for me it’s more about how hard an EV fire is to put out, how much hotter it burns and how toxic the smoke is.


I thought this was true as well - especially when it comes to the total heat involved, but this research from Korea shows the peak heat output and total heat output is very similar between a BEV and ICE fire. It is really only Fuel Cell vehicles which released more total heat, but they peak lower.

https://pure.ulster.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/110820518/1_s2.0_S0306261922017548_main.pdf

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231201/1df03dc6cf3b063e4837a64dc406c683.jpg

What they found was the battery pack itself only accounted for a small % of the total heat being released, approximately 15% in total, and it is actually the remainder of the car which releases most of the energy.

[3toes]

Interesting development here in the UK. It appears that in most cases to install an electric vehicle charging point you have to up grade the sun station. The sub station upgrade was coming in at an average of £500k. This number is from charging industry so take it as you will. Seems that stumping up for this cost was putting companies off installing a lot of charging points as they would never be able to make a profit. So new rule is that this cost is now passed back into the overall costs of everyone who uses electricity not the company that wants to install the charging point. They still have to pay for the infrastructure to get the power from the sub station to the charging point though.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/CihLQcdHayI'si=zLm0Te2i5NuD9nu3

[Tins]

I wonder how the Koreans would add this to their graph.


https://youtu.be/cUVZR7OIelk'si=BhZY1YBPOYQxMk4n

[DiscoDB]

I wonder how the Koreans would add this to their graph.



They would probably recommend not parking your EV in salt water. [emoji849]

The aim of the study was to understand the fire safety issues which will provide input to first responders, fire safety engineers, and structural engineers.

So if an EV is on fire and you can submerge it fully in water, then what the study results do show is you can remove 85% of the total heat being generated and would just be left with the battery in a thermal runaway. The rest of the car won’t re-ignite and you have now contained the fire.

But do avoid using salt water to fight the fire.

[DiscoDB]

Interesting use of fire fighting technology developed for the oil and gas industry to contain an EV fire:

Cobra & EV Fires - YouTube (https://youtu.be/zbzfUok4Ujo)

Handling of Lithium-ion fires - Cold Cut Systems AB (https://www.coldcutsystems.com/handling-of-lithium-ion-fires/)

Electric Vehicle - Cold Cut Systems AB (https://www.coldcutsystems.com/use-case/electric-vehicle/)

Thermal runaway EV battery fires controlled with water cutting tech | Auto Express (https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/consumer-news/360108/thermal-runaway-ev-battery-fires-controlled-water-cutting-tech)

[Arapiles]

I wonder how the Koreans would add this to their graph.


https://youtu.be/cUVZR7OIelk'si=BhZY1YBPOYQxMk4n

Interesting, but I guess logical, that two of the vehicles came out of the water intact but sans batteries, despite the heat of the battery fire.

[Arapiles]

I'm glad that we didn't instal these batteries:

Consumers urged to immediately check for recalled LG solar batteries after Government safety warning notice | ACCC (https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/consumers-urged-to-immediately-check-for-recalled-lg-solar-batteries-after-government-safety-warning-notice)

One of the main reasons we haven't added batteries to our house yet is that none of the battery systems available tick all the boxes - these were one of the options available.

Ironically, I'm now getting ads for Tesla house batteries on this page ...

[DiscoDB]

I'm glad that we didn't instal these batteries:

Consumers urged to immediately check for recalled LG solar batteries after Government safety warning notice | ACCC (https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/consumers-urged-to-immediately-check-for-recalled-lg-solar-batteries-after-government-safety-warning-notice)

One of the main reasons we haven't added batteries to our house yet is that none of the battery systems available tick all the boxes - these were one of the options available.

Ironically, I'm now getting ads for Tesla house batteries on this page ...

At the risk of going off topic, but have you looked into Redflow’s ZBM3 batteries? They use a water based electrolyte with no risk of thermal runaway.

ZBM3 Battery – Redflow (https://redflow.com/zbm3-battery)

[Arapiles]

At the risk of going off topic, but have you looked into Redflow’s ZBM3 batteries? They use a water based electrolyte with no risk of thermal runaway.

ZBM3 Battery – Redflow (https://redflow.com/zbm3-battery)

Choice sponsored a very large battery test from 2016 to 2022: as they said in relation to the Redflow batteries:

The Redflow battery is another interesting non-lithium battery, being a 'flow' battery that uses a pumped zinc bromide electrolyte liquid to store and release charge. Unfortunately, the tested samples have suffered several electrolyte leaks or contamination and the battery was replaced five times over the course of the trial.
Redflow identified manufacturing and transport issues as the cause of these problems and have modified procedures since then, and expect the problem will be avoided in future. Due to the various replacements of test samples, the final sample went through only 800 cycles by the end of the trial, ending with a capacity of 93% of the original level.

Replaced 5 times .... no way I'd be buying them. Although it's not ideal from a green perspective, for back-up I'd currently go with a house switch and an ICE generator.

[Homestar]

Yeah, I don’t believe the Redflow batteries are production ready yet. I’m sure they’ll get better but there’s a lot going on with them.

[scarry]

Another teething problem.

They were lucky it wasn't carrying Petrol or Avgas.

As i have said before,insurance companies will just walk away from these sorts of risks.

[DiscoDB]

Choice sponsored a very large battery test from 2016 to 2022: as they said in relation to the Redflow batteries:

The Redflow battery is another interesting non-lithium battery, being a 'flow' battery that uses a pumped zinc bromide electrolyte liquid to store and release charge. Unfortunately, the tested samples have suffered several electrolyte leaks or contamination and the battery was replaced five times over the course of the trial.
Redflow identified manufacturing and transport issues as the cause of these problems and have modified procedures since then, and expect the problem will be avoided in future. Due to the various replacements of test samples, the final sample went through only 800 cycles by the end of the trial, ending with a capacity of 93% of the original level.

Replaced 5 times .... no way I'd be buying them. Although it's not ideal from a green perspective, for back-up I'd currently go with a house switch and an ICE generator.

That was the zcell which I think was being manufactured in Mexico. ZMB3 is the 3rd generation and they shifted production to Thailand, but I haven’t seen any reports on the ZMB3 - it only went into commercial production recently. I do like the concept of being able to renew the electrolyte.

I did look into getting a natural gas generator at one stage when we were experience a lot of power outages, but happy with my petrol generator to just keep the fridge going.

[DiscoDB]

As i have said before,insurance companies will just walk away from these sorts of risks.

Well the old underwriting maxim that still applies today is there is no such thing as a bad risk, just a bad price!

EV fires is an interesting area for insurance as the consequences tend to be as bad, so it is all about likelihood and at present EV’s win on that front. But because of the fear and uncertainty, they can charge a much higher premium, and so the returns can be even higher.

The one group of cars which is proving to be a higher likelihood of a fire is Hybrids. They seem to have all the downsides of ICE fire risks which then ignites the EV battery. PHEV’s will present some challenges yet.

[Arapiles]

That was the zcell which I think was being manufactured in Mexico. ZMB3 is the 3rd generation and they shifted production to Thailand, but I haven’t seen any reports on the ZMB3 - it only went into commercial production recently. I do like the concept of being able to renew the electrolyte.

I did look into getting a natural gas generator at one stage when we were experience a lot of power outages, but happy with my petrol generator to just keep the fridge going.

It's a pity that you can't just pull up to a pump, drain the discharged battery fluid from your car, top up with new liquid battery and drive away ...

[Arapiles]

I did look into getting a natural gas generator at one stage when we were experience a lot of power outages, but happy with my petrol generator to just keep the fridge going.

Ditto - if we lose power this summer I'll most likely just use the Honda 3kw generator to run the fridge and a fan or cooler. Last heatwave we all slept comfortably on the new part of the house with the solar passive construction and concrete floors that stay the same temp all year round with just a Ryobi fan going.

[4bee]

Made some pretty big holes in some stone in QLD using Nitropril and some gelignite, James. Thing is, you could do pretty much anything to the stuff with little risk. Needs a detonator to set it off, and most folk don't carry those in their Kenworths.

it should also be noted that it wasn’t the diesel that went bang, James.




I bet he won't recharge that rig in his bedroom along side his scooter, after this. [bigrolf] [bigrolf]:rulez:

[4bee]

They were lucky it wasn't carrying Petrol or Avgas.

As i have said before,insurance companies will just walk away from these sorts of risks.


Either that, or we will ALL be paying exorbitant premiums whether you even own one of these or not.
[bigsad]

[NavyDiver]

Might be in a handful of locations but forget it out of the city - that's more power for 1 charger than most towns consume. I just did a job where there was 16,750KVA of generation installed (16 x 20' contanerised generators which were consuming around 3,000 litres of diesel an hour between them) - so less than 10 chargers worth at say 1,500KW for these super duper solid state batteries if they were all being used together.

We were running the towns of Charlton, Wycheproof, Boort, Wedderburn, St Arnaud, Donald and surrounds with them during a 66KV maintenance outage with these gens - Donald and St Arnaud were drawing around 1,600KW most of the day - 2 decent towns - same as 1 charger going full boar... There isn't capacity anywhere on this system to install even one charger above around 350KW. I just can't see what difference solid state batteries will make as their charging speed will be limited by the chargers - which is limited by the network. I can also assure you there are no plans to upgrade any of these lines to cope with EV's either as there is no return on investment and the networks are privately owned.

It goes back to what I've been saying for ages - where is the power coming from for this 'EV Revolution' - and even if it can be made, how is it going to get where it's needed? We're not talking about millions of dollars to make this work but 100's of Billions. Project Energy connect - which would be a drop in the ocean compared to what would be required to bring EV's to everyone is going to nudge 3 billion and that's just one backbone upgrade for the renewables that's coming, nothing to get any extra power to towns, just so we can start switching off the coal and getting the power from new locations back to the terminal stations.

Sorry, rant over - I'm sure someone will call me an EV hater again for pointing out inconvenient pesky facts...

Not one issue with your thoughts at all Sir![thumbsupbig]

All of the places you mention are poorly serviced by the grid. A black out in South West for a few hours three days ago was not seen by many! It took the alarms for lots of vulnerable people offline as well as all vaccine and normal fridges and freezers.

I suspect sadly this issue is not just an occasional issue with the Un science-based experiment we are seeing in Australia.

On EVs specific- MG4 has hit 3000 km in a week. Not happy with the 1percent stuff ups in tech in 'Lane Keeping' Turn it off and it still adds steering in an interesting to alarming manner. Chatting with a Merc ECQ driver in Ballarat showed me it is not just ME! It seems to be about 400 km range at 100kph. The Merc ecq was not 650!!!

Home again after 3 weeks of Dementia assistance. He got to pick up the new one. Now parked in Ballarat which is both good and horrible at times for him. New car is Called Dementia blue replacing the Chemo express shorter range one.

A black out noted between Maryborough and Avoca last night despite all the wind. I am not anti wind! It's good to be home. Noted several times I cannot fit nearly as much in my EV as my Disco! Left my bike in Queenscliff. It moved to Ballarat to late for my return today.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/pP5pD8ALuls'si=MspVPFKT5JlfUsfK

[Tins]

They would probably recommend not parking your EV in salt water. [emoji849]


But do avoid using salt water to fight the fire.

Yes, well it was a joke.....

Although Floridians found that salt water can come to them if the winds are strong enough.


https://youtu.be/MocjA8G2saI'si=lbFBIdBiT9Qz90eW


And, people are going to drive their EV/PHEV off roaders to places like Fraser.

[NavyDiver]

Yes, well it was a joke.....

Although Floridians found that salt water can come to them if the winds are strong enough.


https://youtu.be/MocjA8G2saI'si=lbFBIdBiT9Qz90eW


And, people are going to drive their EV/PHEV off roaders to places like Fraser.

I saw an EV off Fraser John Had a chat via an underwater telephone as well [biggrin]

"The RAN Oberon Class
Oberon Class - The First Australian Submarine SquadronThe “Oberon” class was one of the most advanced type of conventional submarines in any navy, combining high speed with great underwater endurance. They were attack submarines, with both anti-surface and anti-submarine capabilities. Designed specifically for silent running, they were amongst the quietest operational submarines in the world, including nuclear submarines.  They were therefore extremely difficult to detect and were ideally suited to operations on an enemy’s “doorstep”."

They had a "480 cell battery"

Lead acid and bloody heavy[biggrin]

[Tins]

They had a "480 cell battery"

Lead acid and bloody heavy[biggrin]

Well, various navies learned a long time ago that mixing seawater with sub batteries was not a good thing, and took steps to prevent it. Of course, keeping water outside of submarines is a good idea. Kinda the point, really. But damaged subs, say in WWII, might have been able to manage small leaks as long as the air remained breathable. Chlorine gas is not something you want to breathe.

Kudos, though, James. I think the word claustrophobia was invented for submariners, astronauts, and tank crews.

[NavyDiver]

Well, various navies learned a long time ago that mixing seawater with sub batteries was not a good thing, and took steps to prevent it. Of course, keeping water outside of submarines is a good idea. Kinda the point, really. But damaged subs, say in WWII, might have been able to manage small leaks as long as the air remained breathable. Chlorine gas is not something you want to breathe.

Kudos, though, James. I think the word claustrophobia was invented for submariners, astronauts, and tank crews.

Try Night Diving John In the Dark down deep you never ever know[bigrolf]

[Tins]

Try Night Diving John In the Dark down deep you never ever know[bigrolf]

I move we add diving to running in the swear filter.

[Saitch]

Try Night Diving John In the Dark down deep you never ever know[bigrolf]

A Dutch bloke, who I became friendly with in the 80s, (He was a Jag/Landie mechanic [biggrin]) said part of his night dive training was done under ice.
A hole was cut in the ice, for access and he had to navigate to a pre-defined spot and then make his way back to the hole!

[NavyDiver]

A Dutch bloke, who I became friendly with in the 80s, (He was a Jag/Landie mechanic [biggrin]) said part of his night dive training was done under ice.
A hole was cut in the ice, for access and he had to navigate to a pre-defined spot and then make his way back to the hole!

I dragged a drowning diver out of the water when he missed the fact we were under a ship when he panicked and tried the quick exit once[biggrin][biggrin] The shortest route via steel hull was not the way to go at all! Ice Diving - Brrrrrrrrrrrr[bigwhistle]

Back to EVs- Eletric jesus issue? Insurance and repairs question[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]
"[B]DeLorean enthusiasts, body shop technicians, and insurance agents all weigh in on Tesla's stainless steel truck.

Elon Musk has delivered on his promise to get the Tesla Cybertruck (https://insideevs.com/news/698764/tesla-cybertruck-delivery-specs-power-range-price/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) into production. The wedge-shaped, Syd Mead meets Giorgetto Giugiaro design is out in the world, albeit with some design concessions from the concept version to make the whole package work. It might not go as far as originally promised, it’s more expensive than he originally said it would be (https://insideevs.com/news/698701/tesla-cybertruck-official-price/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed), but the Cybertruck still looks very close to the concept Musk surprised us with back in 2019—stainless steel body panels and all. Those stainless steel body panels might be one of the truck’s biggest draws, but could they be its Achilles heel?"

[Tins]

This should interest the caravanners.


https://youtu.be/0oLeKRNsSn4'si=POtUNurnmT3iic5p

[NavyDiver]

More bad news for Eletric Jesus "The German rental car giant says the reduced residual value, and high repair costs as the reasons why it's dropping Teslas.

The Tesla Model 3 (https://insideevs.com/tesla/model-3/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) and Model Y’s price cuts sure have been a boon to regular consumers. In many places, all across the world, the Model 3 and Model Y top the EV sales charts (https://insideevs.com/news/689106/tesla-outsold-its-next-19-competitors-combined-in-us-h1-2023/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) because it’s such a good deal. It offers aspirational luxury at a price that’s only a little bit more than mainstream brands. But, not everyone’s happy with Tesla’s price cuts. According to a report from Bloomberg, German-based rental car company Sixt has announced that it’s phasing out Tesla electric rental cars from its fleets because of reduced resale costs."

Just had a quick look at Sixt Australia. Seem to have BYD and Tesla. None available in Melbourne for a while. In Sydney the BYD was 100ish per day and a Model 3 150ish per day. Moving dates to Jan and back to Melbourne had both the BYD and Model 3 the same 150ish per day? Odd.

On the resale cost I am still thinking the 32 k or my prior drive from a 42k purchase price was fairly good with 55000km on the clock.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

No hater and no rant,it is reality.

Many don’t seem to understand how much power they consume when charging.
I don't use nearly as much charging my EV as I do running my ducted AC.

At the moment my car looks like it will use about as much as a non heated pool a year.

AFAIK.. no one in here is panicking over people with pools or ducted AC.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Might be in a handful of locations but forget it out of the city - that's more power for 1 charger than most towns consume. I just did a job where there was 16,750KVA of generation installed (16 x 20' contanerised generators which were consuming around 3,000 litres of diesel an hour between them) - so less than 10 chargers worth at say 1,500KW for these super duper solid state batteries if they were all being used together.

We were running the towns of Charlton, Wycheproof, Boort, Wedderburn, St Arnaud, Donald and surrounds with them during a 66KV maintenance outage with these gens - Donald and St Arnaud were drawing around 1,600KW most of the day - 2 decent towns - same as 1 charger going full boar... There isn't capacity anywhere on this system to install even one charger above around 350KW. I just can't see what difference solid state batteries will make as their charging speed will be limited by the chargers - which is limited by the network. I can also assure you there are no plans to upgrade any of these lines to cope with EV's either as there is no return on investment and the networks are privately owned.

It goes back to what I've been saying for ages - where is the power coming from for this 'EV Revolution' - and even if it can be made, how is it going to get where it's needed? We're not talking about millions of dollars to make this work but 100's of Billions. Project Energy connect - which would be a drop in the ocean compared to what would be required to bring EV's to everyone is going to nudge 3 billion and that's just one backbone upgrade for the renewables that's coming, nothing to get any extra power to towns, just so we can start switching off the coal and getting the power from new locations back to the terminal stations.

Sorry, rant over - I'm sure someone will call me an EV hater again for pointing out inconvenient pesky facts...
So.. if what you say is true then what do we do? Like how do we handle this?

As you say our governments chose to sell a lot of this infra off. And now private business only have interests in maximum profits.

Do we just call the whole thing off and ban EV's? In which case the power providers just say "oh well" and keep on doing what they are doing.

I'm of the opinion that there are only two real options. The governments have to force companies to do the provision (not popular). Or present the companies with a problem and force them to fix it by customer demand. Electricity providers have an opportunity to sell more power. This seems to be the way it's going.

So what would you have us do?

[scarry]

I don't use nearly as much charging my EV as I do running my ducted AC.

At the moment my car looks like it will use about as much as a non heated pool a year.

AFAIK.. no one in here is panicking over people with pools or ducted AC.

Many won't be in that situation,how many K's a week do you do,and is it being charged from the grid?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Many won't be in that situation,how many K's a week do you do,and is it being charged from the grid?
In 6 months we have done about 7500. I guess on track for 15k a year. I'm really trying to avoid short trips in the Defender as I know it's not good for it so putting them on the Tesla or the push bikes. Defender got driven on Friday and it had been on charge stationary for 32days. So the Tesla is getting basically all the family miles. I have only visited petrol stations when we did our Simpson trip in September since we got the other car. [thumbsupbig]

When you say "is it being charged off the grid?". I try to charge it when the solar is going. We only get paid 5c a kwh for it so I try and use the car to mop up all the excess. Of course - the car has to be home at the right time and we have to have sunny days. In winter it was harder because of lower output, but now we're into summer we seem to be keeping it going no problems on the solar. Occasionally we have charged not on solar. I'd be only guessing on proportions. Probably 2/3 solar.

Personally I think it's important to remember that even when "charged off the grid" there are a lot of renewables in our grid already. If you charge during the day you can see the voltage really rises when it's sunny. So if you charge during the day you're charging off solar - even if it's other peoples solar that they aren't being paid much for. :( As I type this we are sitting on 246 V.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If grid operators were worried about stability and availability of power they would be pushing hard for V2G - thereby harnessing all those EV batteries that in time will be available.

At the moment though they are stonewalling them. Because at the moment they are managing ok - and they make money selling power so why bother. If I read it correctly they are basically saying "A bidirectional charger will cost you a motza, and we won't pay you for your power so you go for it if you want". LOL.

If they were serious they'd be encouraging EV uptake, with special encouragement for V2G capable EV's. And then giving people chargers which they control and offering customers a special deal. If they did that.. our car is home most nights peak so It wouldn't worry me if you took some KWH out of it and you could put them back once the demand was off!

It's hard to see grid operators adapting unless a gun is pointed firmly at their temple.

https://www.energex.com.au/contact-us/faq/faq-results?form=main&query=%21padrenull&profile=_default&num_ranks=10&scope=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.energex.com.au&f.Category%7CfaqSubCategory=electric+vehicles&f.Category%7CfaqCategory=Solar%2C+batteries+%26+EV s&sort=title&sort=title&collection=Main-Site_FAQs&f.personalisation%7Cpersonalisation=seq-only&f.Category%7CfaqSubSubCategory=