EV general discussion

[Tins]

or Gladys Sim Choon. google it.

Yeah, well, Adelaide.....

[vnx205]

.... ....
There are quite literally square miles of land taken up with estimated hundreds of thousands of abandoned, brand new EVs in China. Who knows how they will offload those?

This article casts some doubt on that frequently heard claim.

The Real Story of That Chinese EV Graveyard Isn'''t What You Were Told (https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-real-story-of-that-chinese-ev-graveyard-isnt-what-you-were-told)

[Tins]

This article casts some doubt on that frequently heard claim.

The Real Story of That Chinese EV Graveyard Isn'''t What You Were Told (https://www.thedrive.com/news/the-real-story-of-that-chinese-ev-graveyard-isnt-what-you-were-told)

Yes. Read that. Read a whole lot more as well. Seems there are "fact checkers" everywhere. Everyone has an agenda. But there are too many pics, too many articles, to dismiss it on the basis of one written by a self confessed fanboy.

[DiscoDB]

Certainly not a pretty story - China has lots of abandoned cars, cities, bicycles - you name it.

Bloomberg did a story on this as well confirming the fields of abandoned cars are from failed ride share companies that bought cheap, subsidised, and low quality early versions of EV cars that when they went bust have no value today.

Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/)

I don’t see it as an anti or pro EV story - it just an example of the subsidised waste you will see in China. When they go all in - they do things big.

China's E.V. Graveyards Are an Indictment of Subsidies (https://reason.com/2023/08/23/chinas-e-v-graveyards-are-an-indictment-of-government-policy/)

[NavyDiver]

Charging is a interesting evolution. This might be a LOOK AT ME story for a company!

"Researchers say the new tech is 8-10 times more power-dense than conventional wireless charging coils.

Imagine pulling up in a garage or parking lot in your nearly depleted EV, and having no pesky charging cables to fiddle with, no payment systems to navigate, and no charging apps to download. Just park and walk away. Researchers are taking wireless charging seriously, and one U.S. lab has achieved a breakthrough: 96% efficiency in a 100kW wireless charging test."


https://youtu.be/hozLKumo3Kw'si=8-2PCc_WB8YDVLGI

[Tins]

I don’t see it as an anti or pro EV story -

Neither do I. I only mentioned it because I was wondering which country would wind up with them. Pretty easy to dump them on the poorer nations looking to get on the EV bandwagon. No Western country would accept them, but African or Latin American ones might. Neat little add on to the Belt and Road stuff already happening there.

Sure, I'm cynical. But they have form. And China's economy ain't as robust as they'd have you think. Lotsa stuff going wrong there.

[NavyDiver]

Chinese Comercail property blues John[bigwhistle]

Its all about massive smooth continuous torque [bigrolf] I will not buy a tesla[bigwhistle]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl-wz50yAHo

[Tins]

I will not buy a tesla[bigwhistle]



And I won't buy a Lamborghini. Although I confess to coveting a couple of Ferraris.

Seriously though, where can you use the performance of either of them? On the weekend, up here, I see Teslas, Lambos, McLarens, Ferraris, even a Pagani once ( didn't think you could get those here ), all crawling along with the other tourists, with the people struggling to get out ( possibly not the font seat passengers in the Model S ) once they are lucky enough to find somewhere to park. All confined to heavily policed speed limits. It's ludicrous. They can't even admire themselves in the shop windows up here. There's the odd Caterham, which makes far more sense. Unless it's raining. In Sassafras.

If they want attention, they should get a Series. Or an OKA. Everyone looks at those.

[DiscoDB]

Neither do I. I only mentioned it because I was wondering which country would wind up with them. Pretty easy to dump them on the poorer nations looking to get on the EV bandwagon. No Western country would accept them, but African or Latin American ones might. Neat little add on to the Belt and Road stuff already happening there.

Sure, I'm cynical. But they have form. And China's economy ain't as robust as they'd have you think. Lotsa stuff going wrong there.

I guess there is a market for exporting low km / good condition secondhand cars out of China. But sounds like you wouldn’t even be able to give these ones away.

A lot of the early domestic sold EVs in China that were picked up on the cheap by ride-hailing companies only had a 100km range. Plus second hand EVs typically can’t be shipped, and so would need to be transported by road or rail. So could end up in Russia or North Korea is someone is prepared to pay for the transportation cost.

My guess is they will eventually be recycled - especially for the steel.

[TonyC]

And I won't buy a Lamborghini. Although I confess to coveting a couple of Ferraris.

Seriously though, where can you use the performance of either of them? On the weekend, up here, I see Teslas, Lambos, McLarens, Ferraris, even a Pagani once ( didn't think you could get those here ), all crawling along with the other tourists, with the people struggling to get out ( possibly not the font seat passengers in the Model S ) once they are lucky enough to find somewhere to park. All confined to heavily policed speed limits. It's ludicrous. They can't even admire themselves in the shop windows up here. There's the odd Caterham, which makes far more sense. Unless it's raining. In Sassafras.

If they want attention, they should get a Series. Or an OKA. Everyone looks at those.

My thoughts exactly.
I did seriously price out out a Westfield many moons ago, now I would just buy a MX5.
Or I could get the Haflinger registered again, for that open air motoring feel 🙂 Not to mention getting attention 😇

Tony

[DiscoDB]

A good article on how China has managed to dominate the EV market. As with all things in China, it started decades ago and was well thought out in advance.

And Tesla’s rise is intertwined in this story. Some would say it has been a symbiotic relationship.

How did China come to dominate the world of electric cars? | MIT Technology Review (https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/)

[Tins]

The whole China thing is a perfect example of how subsidies distort markets. An extreme one, I grant you, but nevertheless. Governments of any stripe have many, many things they should be doing. Manipulating markets isn't one of them. They demonstrate over and over again that they are no good at it.

[Tins]

My thoughts exactly.
I did seriously price out out a Westfield many moons ago, now I would just buy a MX5.
Or I could get the Hafinger registered again, for that open air motoring feel 🙂 Not to mention getting attention 😇

Tony

Gotta love Haffies. Bloke I know has two beautifully restored Pinzgauer 6x6. They get attention as well.

[Tins]

A good article on how China has managed to dominate the EV market. As with all things in China, it started decades ago and was well thought out in advance.

And Tesla’s rise is intertwined in this story. Some would say it has been a symbiotic relationship.

How did China come to dominate the world of electric cars? | MIT Technology Review (https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/02/21/1068880/how-did-china-dominate-electric-cars-policy/)

IOW, the same way they came to dominate every other market. Subsidies, underpaid labour, and the manufacturing scale made possible by the vast population wanting to join the affluent West ( good luck with that if you are a poor Chinese ). Plus a reputation for ruthlessness in business.

Have to wonder if it will last. Big companies are withdrawing. Well, appearing to. Even thick skinned Apple doesn't enjoy the "sweat shop" accusations.

[TonyC]

Gotta love Haffies. Bloke I know has two beautifully restored Pinzgauer 6x6. They get attention as well.

He also has 2 Haffies, one LWB, one SWB and a P38A.

Tony

Apologies for sidetracking the EV thread😇

[scarry]

I know some of you don't really like Sky News,but this is interesting.
Without the $20M subsidy,i suppose they wouldn't be here.

New electric truck fleet under scrutiny - YouTube (https://youtu.be/CzZVn2ftqGs'si=hZMJ-2foHunEmNii)

[Homestar]

Charging is a interesting evolution. This might be a LOOK AT ME story for a company!

"Researchers say the new tech is 8-10 times more power-dense than conventional wireless charging coils.

Imagine pulling up in a garage or parking lot in your nearly depleted EV, and having no pesky charging cables to fiddle with, no payment systems to navigate, and no charging apps to download. Just park and walk away. Researchers are taking wireless charging seriously, and one U.S. lab has achieved a breakthrough: 96% efficiency in a 100kW wireless charging test."


https://youtu.be/hozLKumo3Kw'si=8-2PCc_WB8YDVLGI

I’ll call BS on the 96% efficiency for the wireless charging - I’ll wait for some independent testing before I believe they have anything close.

[prelude]

Also, I don't want to know how strong of an electric field you need to produce to get that much power across. People with pacemakers better not be near it.

-P

[Old Farang]

China has a huge fleet of electric buses and have been using a charging system called "opportunity" charging stations. Some of them are using wireless under the floor equipment, some retractable pentgraphs, at each stop and starting point.
Not sure about their super capacitors though!

China takes the lead in adopting the all-electric bus equipped with supercapacitors. — Electronic Components Franchised Distributor - Military Certified Manufacturer | ES Components (https://www.escomponents.com/blog/2017/10/11/china-takes-the-lead-in-adopting-the-all-electric-bus-equipped-with-supercapacitors)

[Tins]

They'll be harnessing lightning next.

[NavyDiver]

I’ll call BS on the 96% efficiency for the wireless charging - I’ll wait for some independent testing before I believe they have anything close.

I did mention it was a LOOK AT ME one [biggrin][biggrin]

[Homestar]

I did mention it was a LOOK AT ME one [biggrin][biggrin]

Yeah, it’s all hype and BS to drag in investment dollars. Electric Jesus is the best at this fraud but others aren’t far behind him.

[Tins]

China has a huge fleet of electric buses and have been using a charging system called "opportunity" charging stations. Some of them are using wireless under the floor equipment, some retractable pentgraphs, at each stop and starting point.
Not sure about their super capacitors though!



China is also the world leader in electric bus fires...

[prelude]

China is also the world leader in electric bus fires...

Made me spill my tea early in the morning, good on ya mate! [bigrolf]

-P

[PhilipA]

I actually saw a Tesla model 3 towing a teardrop camper/caravan on the Geelong ring road a couple of weeks ago.
He/she was a mobile road block doing 75-80 in a 100 zone.
My guess was he/she was desperately looking for a charger.
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

I actually saw a Tesla model 3 towing a teardrop camper/caravan on the Geelong ring road a couple of weeks ago.
He/she was a mobile road block doing 75-80 in a 100 zone.
My guess was he/she was desperately looking for a charger.
Regards PhilipA

Nah,probably trying to save fuel,i mean power,and the world[bigrolf]

[Tins]

I actually saw a Tesla model 3 towing a teardrop camper/caravan on the Geelong ring road a couple of weeks ago.


Lol. Don't think those BPs would be much help.

[101RRS]

Yesterday I spotted the usual Camry Hybrid taxi going through a drive through - what was unusual was that the petrol engine was running on LPG. Not seen a Hybrid converted to LPG before.

Garry

[NavyDiver]

I actually saw a Tesla model 3 towing a teardrop camper/caravan on the Geelong ring road a couple of weeks ago.
He/she was a mobile road block doing 75-80 in a 100 zone.
My guess was he/she was desperately looking for a charger.
Regards PhilipA

Geelong has a lot of fast CCS charging, so unless she is very very silly, I doubt your guess.

Electric Jesus has about 6 at the Easten side of Geelong and 2 fast CCS chargers at the pool on the western side of Gelong Add RACV at Torquay which was my go-to before the several dozen more that have popped up over the last 12 months. Colac, Camperdown Warrnambool and Port Fairy even now!!

Just came back from Blues Train at Queens cliff. 250+ km and no need to use any paid charging this weekend. Solar on now.

Many mobile roadblocks 20-30kmph under the speed limits not in the left-hand lane yesterday and on the way back today. It is against the road rulz here in Vic to do that. Two side by side on the eastern freeway in middle and right-hand lane as I did the speed limit in the left-hand land 10 minutes ago [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

A huge crash here on Friday night by that very special type who speeds though red lights. One or two Ambulances and a dozen police cars blocked the road for hours make me suspect significant injury or worse. Both cars were total write offs. It's crazy out their. Too many VIPs Phillip

[Tins]

Yesterday I spotted the usual Camry Hybrid taxi going through a drive through - what was unusual was that the petrol engine was running on LPG. Not seen a Hybrid converted to LPG before.

Garry

Belt AND braces.

[TonyC]

Yesterday I spotted the usual Camry Hybrid taxi going through a drive through - what was unusual was that the petrol engine was running on LPG. Not seen a Hybrid converted to LPG before.

Garry

There used to be lots of Toyota Prius taxis on gas in Melbourne.
Given a Prius gets about 4L/100 in traffic, and a bit worse on the open road, it would take a lot of Ks to to get a ROI

Tony

[Tins]

There used to be lots of Toyota Prius taxis on gas in Melbourne.
Given a Prius gets about 4L/100 in traffic, and a bit worse on the open road, it would take a lot of Ks to to get a ROI

Tony

Taxis do a lot of Ks. Bought a five yo EF once that had 800,000 on it. Dunno how many heads it had had though...... Drove it for years. great car to take to work.

[PhilipA]

I was thinking about Navydivers reply to my sighting of a model 3 towing at a very slow speed.
I see a couple of flaws in his argument.
The tesla charging port is at the rear of the car so he would have to unhitch for every charge.'
Now I can tell you how difficult it is to find a parking spot where you can gain front access to the caravan to rehitch and how people just park in front of you.
EVs typically lose 50% of range towing. Now this was a big teardrop not the usual small bed on wheels so lets be generous and say 40% range loss. It was a hot day so anyone sensible would have the aircon on.
if the Tesla model 3 was a long range it starts with 500Km maximum range. With adults and luggage and aircon on maybe 450 (generous) or even less.
Add the trailer and so range maybe range of 250KM.
So he will have to stop every 250Km unhitch , park the caravan, charge for say 50 minutes , rehitch and go.
Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Regards PhilipA

Welcome to the Brave New World. Who said anything about fun? Das ist verboten.

[Homestar]

We just delivered a 150KVA generator and large fuel cell to a premises that has just taken possession of 5 new electric delivery trucks which they’re really excited by - until their Electrician told them their supply isn’t up to charging them so we’ll have a gen there burning diesel to charge them each night for at least 2 months while they spend another $100K getting that small oversight fixed. 🤣

This green future is great! (For our budget) [emoji16]

[scarry]

We just delivered a 150KVA generator and large fuel cell to a premises that has just taken possession of 5 new electric delivery trucks which they’re really excited by - until their Electrician told them their supply isn’t up to charging them so we’ll have a gen there burning diesel to charge them each night for at least 2 months while they spend another $100K getting that small oversight fixed. 🤣

This green future is great! (For our budget) [emoji16]

I was getting some gear at an electrical wholesaler we don’t use very often.
There is a huge sign out the front ‘EV charging here”,and a parking bay allocated to EV charging only,which is right at the front and the most convenient for any customer,which is odd.It should be the furtherest one away,out of the way to let customers pick up gear quickly.So that is also a stuff up.
Anyway,seems the building mains need up graded,and the owner doesn’t want to do it as it is a huge expensive job.

[Homestar]

Had to edit out some names but the first truck for the evening charging off the gen.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=189387&stc=1

189387

[DiscoDB]

Had to edit out some names but the first truck for the evening charging off the gen.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/alternate-energies/189387-ev-general-discussion-sustainable.jpg

189387

I thought Kings Transport have been running a small fleet of EV trucks since 2017.

Kings Transport - Trailer Magazine (https://www.trailermag.com.au/kings-transport/)

They certainly seem to be proud of them from the posts they make on FB and LinkedIn.

Kings Transport & Logistics | Monash VIC (https://www.facebook.com/KingsTransport)

Kings Group claims largest privately funded commercial EV fleet in Australia (https://thedriven.io/2023/08/03/kings-group-claims-largest-privately-funded-commercial-ev-fleet-in-australia/)

Driving Towards Sustainability: Kings Transport's Green Initiatives in Freight Transport
Kings Transport | 4 Aug 2023
Driving Towards Sustainability: Kings Transport's Green Initiatives in Freight Transport (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/driving-towards-sustainability-kings-transports)

[Homestar]

They could well be proud of them but there’s no where to charge these ones at this depot currently that’s for sure. [emoji16]

[DiscoDB]

Sometimes a case of one step forward, two steps back.

I see they posted they intend to install more charging points at depots, so look to be committed to the long run.

One of the early adopters of the Australian converted trucks produced by SEA-Electric here in Victoria.

100% Electric Commercial Vehicles | SEA Electric | Zero Emissions Vehicle (https://www.sea-electric.com/)

Looks like they have moved on to leasing the Foton T5 now. Woolworths also are trialling the smaller model for home deliveries.

T5 Electric Truck - Foton Mobility Distribution Australia (https://www.fotonmobility.com.au/t5-electric-truck)

[NavyDiver]

"Nationals MP Keith Pitt says Chris Bowen’s EV plans for Australia are “not reality”.
Mr Pitt told Sky News Australia that there are reports of EVs being “valueless” when going to trade them in."

Not suggesting MP K Pitt is wrong. My trading $32 k after 50,000+ km on my MG XS was ok in my thoughts.

Saw a beautiful 2011 Jaguar. Cost $220,000 hand build and it was very very nice. A 5K trading offer for it was refused.

The new owner said its one and oil burner and used 7 litres per 100 km on its trips from Brisbane to the Western Districts of Vic.


That level of depreciation would hurt normal people. The prior owner is apparently a known speedster who may do it is a nice WRX in flight mode at times now and may be in his 80s [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

Look on Carsales. There were several 2019 Teslas Model 3s from 36K a couple of days ago. All strangely were private sales and some had several extras and most moderate miles.
My first thought is that dealers will not touch.
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoDB]

Look on Carsales. There were several 2019 Teslas Model 3s from 36K a couple of days ago. All strangely were private sales and some had several extras and most moderate miles.
My first thought is that dealers will not touch.
Regards PhilipA

How weird - people trying to sell their cars privately on Car Sales. Clearly something wrong with them. 🤪

[Tombie]

In the UK EV sales have slowed and lots of previous models still in yards.

Higher end EVs aren’t getting anywhere near enough.

Normally by end of lease a vehicle can fetch decent money to move onto the next lease. In reality they are getting less than the payout figure for the lease.


As mentioned multiple times by a few - EV has its place.
It is NOT the complete solution and unlikely to ever be in a sensible world. However, the odds of this world being sensible under the current global political Muppets and the Greenwashing that is currently endemic means it’s anyone’s guess what the transport solution is going to really be.

[DiscoDB]

As mentioned multiple times by a few - EV has its place.
It is NOT the complete solution and unlikely to ever be in a sensible world. However, the odds of this world being sensible under the current global political Muppets and the Greenwashing that is currently endemic means it’s anyone’s guess what the transport solution is going to really be.

I think the truth is the world has hit an unsustainable population level on many fronts now, and attempts to course correct are 20-30 years too late. All they are really going to achieve is to slow down the inevitable.

As consumers, all we can do is enjoy what we can whilst we can.

As you say, no one truly knows what the solution will be (or wants to admit what it will really take to make a difference). Gee some don’t even want to acknowledge there is a problem that needs a solution.

Meanwhile, I do like the technology changes we are seeing. But yet to find the perfect replacement for the D3/D4 - so will do my bit by keeping the D3 on the road. An EV (or PHEV) with V2L capability would be a nice third car to support my own unsustainable living.

[Tombie]

Agree….

I do disagree there is a problem that needs a solution (sarcasm)…

If the human species wants to remain the dominant on the planet there may well be an issue, however there’s nothing to say it will be, or should be… [emoji56]

If society keeps going the way it is, the problem will solve itself and the planet will keep going right up until good old Sol goes nova. Then it will all be forgotten [emoji12]

[PhilipA]

How weird - people trying to sell their cars privately on Car Sales. Clearly something wrong with them.

No they were probably offered less than the advertised price by a dealer or no dealer would buy them.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

This is interesting. "WATCH: Ford Lightning, Rivian R1T, And Tesla Cybertruck Battle On Same Off-Road Climb"
The tesla is very ugly![biggrin]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeazDyOH7O4

[Tins]

With the all out push by the current US administration, I'd expect different stats.

189723


[Source: EV Ownership Ticks Up, but Fewer Nonowners Want to Buy One (https://news.gallup.com/poll/643334/ownership-ticks-fewer-nonowners-buy-one.aspx) ]

[NavyDiver]

UK EV prices and range in cold weather.

Lexus is a shocker given the Price and its claim to be premium[bighmmm] Both the Lexus in the test were more than 30% under there WTLP range suggested.

My MG4 is a bit under the higher specked one used in this test. This one was about 29% under its WTLP range. I loved the guy suggesting the BMW I5 which missed its WTLP by 25% was close[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

VW two cars with almost identical specs except one had a Heat Pump option at 1000pounds!!! The suggested pay back time being 80,000 km for that option will not be a huge selling item for VW[bigrolf]

Still waiting for my tow tug[bawl]



https://youtu.be/c10Ck84QgEI'si=t4iVZAwQkQaunxKn

[NavyDiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngAvbnCpn2A

Cool yet expensive

[Tins]

Can't speak to the veracity of the reports, and can't link to the vids, but reports are that Tesla has initiated mass layoffs at their Gigafactory in Austin Texas. The reports also point to large numbers of unsold CyberTrucks outside the complex ( I'm unsurprised ). Tesla is compelled to give two months "notice". They didn't, but will have to pay salaries and benefits until mid June. Probably cheaper than continuing to make things people do not want.

I guess Tesla could shift manufacture of the CyberTruck to China, and they can join all the BYDs and SAICs cluttering up the docks in Belgium and Germany, without homes to go to. BYD and SAIC are sending massive car carriers to the European ports, and Turkey as well, when the cars have no buyers. I wonder when they will start getting turned away.

[Tins]

How weird - people trying to sell their cars privately on Car Sales. Clearly something wrong with them. 🤪

Nothing at all to do with the lousy trade in offers of course.

[NavyDiver]

Can't speak to the veracity of the reports, and can't link to the vids, but reports are that Tesla has initiated mass layoffs at their Gigafactory in Austin Texas. The reports also point to large numbers of unsold CyberTrucks outside the complex ( I'm unsurprised ). Tesla is compelled to give two months "notice". They didn't, but will have to pay salaries and benefits until mid June. Probably cheaper than continuing to make things people do not want.

I guess Tesla could shift manufacture of the CyberTruck to China, and they can join all the BYDs and SAICs cluttering up the docks in Belgium and Germany, without homes to go to. BYD and SAIC are sending massive car carriers to the European ports, and Turkey as well, when the cars have no buyers. I wonder when they will start getting turned away.

Eletric Jesus will save them [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Its 1400 or 10% of the company staff being laid off. That means they had 140,000 staff[wink11][wink11][wink11]

It is just a car company despite the true believers in Musk[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

"As of 2023,
Tesla (https://www.licarco.com/news/how-many-tesla-gigafactories#) has seven factories located all over the world. Fremont Factory is the first manufacturing site for the Texas-based EV maker.
Gigafactory (https://www.licarco.com/news/how-many-tesla-gigafactories#) Mexico is the last officially announced production-site."

Question for me will be which one of the 8 gets the biggest cuts? Germany has the highest power costs[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[Tins]

Don't care about Musk one way or the other, although I like what he's doing with SpaceX, making NASA look like amateurs. But the US MSM detest him since he brought free speech to tweeter, and they are circling like vultures.

The 10% figure is global, and Tesla would easily have that number of employees if you include China, where everybody seems to be losing their job, at least in the EV sector. Also, seems some very senior execs are off to "spend more time with their families".

Tesla is touted as the most valuable car company on the planet.... Not sure how that is calculated, however if they are struggling then the cracks in the industry are definitely showing. All those BYDs piling up on the wharves in Belgium and Germany, oh and Italy apparently, are there to keep the figures up in China. People aren't buying them in Europe any more than they are in the US. Lucky we're RHD or they'd try to offload them on us.

[Tins]

Guess the answer is don't crash...


https://youtu.be/CxwbjwIVrdc'si=fhkHXUxSpkE9TgNY

[Arapiles]

Eletric Jesus will save them [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Its 1400 or 10% of the company staff being laid off. That means they had 140,000 staff[wink11][wink11][wink11]



So - 14,000 staff being laid off, 2 directors gone, they broke industrial laws in Germany by not giving notice of the redundancies and they've apparently cancelled the Tesla 2 model. Just a flesh wound.

[DiscoDB]

Some really big cuts starting to happen across a lot of companies.

It feels like big business (and consumers) in the US know something bad is coming and are acting quick.

The List of Layoffs Sweeping the US: Amazon, Tesla, Google, IBM (https://www.businessinsider.com/layoffs-sweeping-us-these-are-companies-making-cuts-2024)

List of Layoffs Sweeping US: Hasbro, Amazon, More (https://www.businessinsider.com/layoffs-sweeping-the-us-these-are-the-companies-making-cuts-2023)

Layoffs rise to the highest for any February since 2009, Challenger says (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/07/layoffs-rise-to-the-highest-for-any-february-since-2009-challenger-says.html)

[NavyDiver]

Some really big cuts starting to happen across a lot of companies.

It feels like big business (and consumers) in the US know something bad is coming and are acting quick.

The List of Layoffs Sweeping the US: Amazon, Tesla, Google, IBM (https://www.businessinsider.com/layoffs-sweeping-us-these-are-companies-making-cuts-2024)

List of Layoffs Sweeping US: Hasbro, Amazon, More (https://www.businessinsider.com/layoffs-sweeping-the-us-these-are-the-companies-making-cuts-2023)

Layoffs rise to the highest for any February since 2009, Challenger says (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/07/layoffs-rise-to-the-highest-for-any-february-since-2009-challenger-says.html)

Economic cycles - Not my push bike[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[PhilipA]

You have to remember that in the USA home loans are fixed for the loan period, so people who got their mortgage in low interest times are laughing.

However it is consumer loans that have risen enormously so this affects new car sales disproportionately, particularly expensive cars.
Many USA citizens look predominantly at their monthly repayments and these have risen enormously.
And of course the chickens are coming home to roost on EV residuals so leases are now much more expensive and insurance is also going through the roof.
Regards Philip A

[ramblingboy42]

STOP THE ROT .....SACK THE LOT

google that and read deeply....breathe deeply too

[NavyDiver]

It's going to get louder[biggrin][biggrin] Can I just play LOUD music????? My Anti Sub sonar type hearing likes quiet [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

‘Quiet’ cars such as electric and hybrid vehicles must now legally make a warning sound at low speeds to help people who are blind or vision impaired stay safe, it has been announced today.
[B]Federal Transport Minister Catherine King announced the new Australian Design Rule (ADR) on Friday, with it set to be mandated on all new electric, hybrid and hydrogen cars – as well as trucks and buses – when travelling under 25km/h by no later than November 2025
PLAY IT LOUD[biggrin]<strong>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWWDKZ-kydE

[PhilipA]

Tritium collapses in another blow for Australian manufacturing. The Australian 19/4/2024
As they say "go woke go broke"
Regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

As they say "go woke go broke"
Regards PhilipA

It's not clear if it's only the 3 or 4 Australian companies that have appointed receivers or if the US company is also in trouble, other than in relation to its Nasdaq listing.

And if they've gone broke globally it's because of poor reliability and outdated products, not however "woke" would apply to electrical engineering.

[DiscoDB]

It's not clear if it's only the 3 or 4 Australian companies that have appointed receivers or if the US company is also in trouble, other than in relation to its Nasdaq listing.

And if they've gone broke globally it's because of poor reliability and outdated products, not however "woke" would apply to electrical engineering.

Maybe Philip was referring to the fact that Tritium is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

Something that was frowned upon back in the day before companies became more aware of social injustice.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240420/8555809e9af574b193b245521029cfd1.jpg

Sad to hear of an Aussie manufacturing company collapsing. Hopefully they find way to continue.

[PhilipA]

Well I am just a simple soul.
I was really referring to their choice of business to be in.
To many including me it is becoming clear that EVs will never reach the penetration that rosy projections were based on. Witness Ford, GM and even Tesla.
It is now becoming (to me) apparent that issues such as insurance cost, repair cost, residuals, and good old range anxiety are becoming more worrying for potential buyers.
This will affect the revenue of recharge stations so orders for stations will become much smaller than anticipated once the Government and fleet demand is satisfied.
if the throughput of EVs charging declines due to the need to charge high rates to amortise the enormous investment , then I expect in the next few years many of the owners of the EV chargers will have cash flow problems as well.
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoDB]

You can’t be too critical of an Australian company founded by 3 engineering students over 20 years ago that lead them to be pioneers in an emerging market and be the second largest global supplier of fast chargers. Not many can say they backed themselves like this.

They may have been caught by being too ambitious and expanding too fast, but this is the sort of innovation and opportunities we want to see in Australia.

Let’s hope they will find a new buyer, and keep the Brisbane team running.

[Arapiles]

Maybe Philip was referring to the fact that Tritium is an Equal Opportunity Employer.

Something that was frowned upon back in the day before companies became more aware of social injustice.

I've been in the workforce for over 40 years and I can't think of a single company or firm that I worked for that said that it "frowned upon" equal opportunity, particularly given that it's been a legal requirement since at least the 1970s (and in some States, earlier than that). And I think that you'll find that concerns about social injustice have a very, very long history and aren't a recent phenomenon. It that wasn't the case then, for example, the English courts wouldn't've developed their Equity jurisdiction - and that dates back to the 13th Century.

[Arapiles]

You can’t be too critical of an Australian company founded by 3 engineering students over 20 years ago that lead them to be pioneers in an emerging market and be the second largest global supplier of fast chargers. Not many can say they backed themselves like this.

They may have been caught by being too ambitious and expanding too fast, but this is the sort of innovation and opportunities we want to see in Australia.

Let’s hope they will find a new buyer, and keep the Brisbane factory running.


True, but the Brisbane factory closed last year and manufacturing was shifted to the US.

[DiscoDB]

True, but the Brisbane factory closed last year and manufacturing was shifted to the US.

They were already in trouble when they announced the factory closure just in November last year. Prior to that they were aiming to have both the US and Brisbane factories running.

Still something like 200 based in Brisbane with the R&D team. Have corrected my comment - thanks.

In hind sight they may have been better to move manufacturing to somewhere like Thailand rather than set up shop in the US.

[Homestar]

So - 14,000 staff being laid off, 2 directors gone, they broke industrial laws in Germany by not giving notice of the redundancies and they've apparently cancelled the Tesla 2 model. Just a flesh wound.

I'd be more worried about the 40% drop in share price this year and the 15% drop in sales they've experienced recently. While I don't think they'll go under they do need to get a new model released to the global market to replace the Model 3 which is really starting to show it's age IMO. You can't make one good product and expect it to be the only think you do forever. The Cyber truck sure isn't going to help with given it's market is so small so not sure what or when they plan to get their **** together again.

[NavyDiver]

This is the start of it? My BOLD

"The tests were conducted in a range of temperatures, travelled across significant altitude changes and had an average speed of about 80km/h. Low temperatures, hills and high speeds dramatically decrease an EVs (https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advice/what-is-an-electric-car-86051) range.
These semi-solid state cells use a combination of liquid and solid electrolytes to hold energy.
Fully solid state batteries use a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid or gel used in conventional units.
Solid state batteries are smaller, faster to charge and more energy dense than current lithium-ion batteries.
The report out of China said the Nio ET7 used a monster 150kWh battery, but it weighed only 20kg more than the brandÂ’s current 100kWh lithium-ion battery. "

Full yarn Chinese brand confirms EV major breakthrough (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/chinese-brand-confirms-ev-major-breakthrough/ar-AA1npXqJ?ocid=msedgntp&pc=EDBBAN&cvid=df1f0818fae34632c6b4585ba6aef305&ei=8)

[DiscoDB]

Interesting take on why Tesla is struggling. Sales data shows Democrats probably don’t like the CEO and many have stopped buying his cars.

Tesla Learns Hard Lesson: Go Anti-Woke, Go Broke (https://gizmodo.com.au/2024/04/tesla-learns-hard-lesson-go-anti-woke-go-broke/)

It seems many are realising that Electric-Jesus is not the messiah, he is just a very naughty boy!

[grey_ghost]

Every single Cyber Truck ever built (4,000) have been recalled due to an issue with the accelerator… Years behind schedule, more expensive than promised and still built a bucket of… Oh and you can’t wash them either - due to corrosion, and not covered by warranty. The Elon fans have been sold up the river yet again. [emoji6]

[Tins]

Interesting take on why Tesla is struggling. Sales data shows Democrats probably don’t like the CEO and many have stopped buying his cars.

By that rather flawed logic the MAGA crowd should be snapping them up.

[DiscoDB]

By that rather flawed logic the MAGA crowd should be snapping them up.

It is just sales data. Seems the MAGA crowd remain more anti-EVs based on the same data. Republicans buying Teslas are reported to have increased, but not enough to offset the losses.

Electric-Jesus may be trying to win them over but doubt it will work. Just look at his idea of a “truck”. Perhaps if he offered a V8 hybrid then he may start to win them over.

The reality is consumers now have more choice and if you can’t stomach what the CEO stands for, you buy elsewhere. Electric-Jesus can’t afford to alienate his largest customer base.

[JDNSW]

It would be interesting to know if the sales of Fords were affected by Henry's support for Nazis in the 1930s. I have never seen any discussion of this, although I was not aware of his support for Hitler until fairly recently, so I suspect it was not widely known at the time. (Admittedly, this was nearly twenty years before I became very interested in cars!)

[DiscoDB]

Could have - especially if there was social media at the time. Although it may have also helped sales in the red states.

Same with GM who also allegedly supported the Nazis during the war, but then again so did BMW and Volkswagen and they remain popular. Maybe Electric-Jesus is onto something. [emoji12]

Ford and GM are very popular with Republicans, but not very popular with Democrats who are more likely to buy small Japanese cars.

Vehicles And Voting: What Your Car Might Say About How You’ll Vote - Forbes Wheels (https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/what-your-car-might-say-about-how-you-vote/)

[Tins]

Well, the “elites’ “ support for the horrific “science “ of eugenics, something Hitler took to its logical conclusion, has been widely reported. The list of VIP types that openly advocated that particular horror makes for interesting reading. Pretty much all Hollywood ( the more things change huh ), world leaders and public figures, including Shaw, Keynes, and Lawrence, Churchill fffs, Kellogg and Woodrow Wilson supported this progressive agenda. You mention Ford. Michigan, the home of Ford Motor Company, was the first state to attempt to pass legislation compelling castration of “degenerates “.
Personally I consider Musk to be a beacon of freedom, especially in that company. There are still many elements that consider eugenics to be a wasted opportunity, some not far from Pennsylvania Avenue.

[101RRS]

Last weekend I saw a Tesla 3 towing a caravan of about 18' in length - was in the country not in the city either. I know that Teslas have good range and efficiency but I am sure towing an 18foot van would really make range anxiety kick in.

Garry

[PhilipA]

I don't if a scam , but there was a 2021? Tesla Model 3 twin motor listed at $33K last night on Facebook Marketplace.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Last weekend I saw a Tesla 3 towing a caravan of about 18' in length - was in the country not in the city either. I know that Teslas have good range and efficiency but I am sure towing an 18foot van would really make range anxiety kick in.

Garry

Bet the van has a genset.

[Homestar]

And this is in one of the best developed EV areas on the planet.


https://youtu.be/5MXzxHc0dWo'si=JeKnOrXHn3j2m_cc

[NavyDiver]

And this is in one of the best developed EV areas on the planet.


https://youtu.be/5MXzxHc0dWo'si=JeKnOrXHn3j2m_cc

If you think thats bad the EU is worse perhaps? My bold being the kicker of doom?

"Electric car charging stations have not kept pace with the increasing number of electric cars (https://www.dw.com/en/european-ports-swamped-with-cars-amid-china-ev-offensive/a-68912413) on the road, European automakers said on Monday.A report by the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association (ACEA) said electric vehicle (EV) sales had grown three times faster than the number of EV charging points installed in its 27 nations since 2017.
[B]ACEA said the European Union will need 8.8 million charging by 2030, which would mean installing 22,000 points every week — eight times the current rate.
The European Commission, however, estimates that the bloc will need 3.5 million charging points by 2030.
The report added that EV infrastructure was key in motivating more people to buy electric cars, all of which is vital in achieving the EU target of reaching carbon neutrality by 2050."

[Homestar]

It's where the power is coming from as well to run all the new chargers. A company we work with that does big shopping centre Charging stations is running into roadblocks on several major sites as the supply authorities are rejecting their applications as the local area is at capacity and adding 3MW for a dozen chargers can't be done without upgrade to the Zone sub - we're talking an 8 figure sums to upgrade one single 22KV line to a single shopping centre to allow this which of course has stopped the job dead in it's tracks. This is on top of the 7 figure sum to actually put the dozen chargers in.

Bonkers money so a few wealthy people can charge their cars while their shopping.

[NavyDiver]

On the brighter side perhaps

QS web site has this "As an intermediate step between the A0 and the QSE-5 B0 prototypes planned for later this year, Alpha-2 cells feature the main functionality of the QSE-5 and are an opportunity for customers to test key performance parameters and prototype-level reliability. While Alpha-2 prototypes are being tested in customer labs, QuantumScape is working to integrate those component-level improvements into the planned QSE-5 cells, which will consist of 24 layers and use electrolyte-separators produced using the faster Raptor equipment and process.
“The Alpha-2 shipments represent an important milestone on our path to commercialization,” said Dr. Siva Sivaram, president and CEO of QuantumScape. “Customer feedback is the most critical input in the product development cycle as it provides insight into areas that need improvement and strengthens collaboration. The faster we can get new product iterations into customers’ hands, the faster we get to production. We are very encouraged by the initial Alpha-2 performance results and excited about the first QSE-5 cells we expect to manufacture later this year.”"

ALPHA 2 details

"Alpha-2 prototypes integrate many of the company’s significant component improvements made over the last year. The six-layer Alpha-2 prototype is more energy-dense than the earlier 24-layer A0 prototype. This is primarily due to higher-loading cathodes (i.e., packed with more active material) and more efficient packaging that optimizes the materials and space within the cell. The packaging improvements include tighter internal margins, thinner current collectors, and a slimmer design, all of which are integral to the final product." Link QuantumScape - QuantumScape Begins Customer Shipments of Alpha-2 Prototypes, a Key Goal for 2024 (https://ir.quantumscape.com/resources/press-releases/news-details/2024/QuantumScape-Begins-Customer-Shipments-of-Alpha-2-Prototypes-a-Key-Goal-for-2024/default.aspx)

Suggesting later 2024 we get the first shipments of the "QSE-5 B0 prototypes planned for later this year"

"QSE-5 cells, which will consist of 24 layers and use electrolyte-separators produced using the faster Raptor equipment and process."

They are building the giga factory for them now.

NOT SHARE MARKET ADVICE :)

[Old Farang]

It's where the power is coming from as well to run all the new chargers. A company we work with that does big shopping centre Charging stations is running into roadblocks on several major sites as the supply authorities are rejecting their applications as the local area is at capacity and adding 3MW for a dozen chargers can't be done without upgrade to the Zone sub - we're talking an 8 figure sums to upgrade one single 22KV line to a single shopping centre to allow this which of course has stopped the job dead in it's tracks. This is on top of the 7 figure sum to actually put the dozen chargers in.

Bonkers money so a few wealthy people can charge their cars while their shopping.
And isn't that what you, and myself if I may add, have been saying all along. But not to worry, the grid can go 75% renewable right now according to some experts! Just need old Tesla to be reincarnated and show us how!

[Tins]

Bonkers money so a few wealthy people can charge their cars while their shopping.

I'll bet the insurers will add their "little" bit on top of that as well.

[prelude]

It's where the power is coming from as well to run all the new chargers. A company we work with that does big shopping centre Charging stations is running into roadblocks on several major sites as the supply authorities are rejecting their applications as the local area is at capacity and adding 3MW for a dozen chargers can't be done without upgrade to the Zone sub - we're talking an 8 figure sums to upgrade one single 22KV line to a single shopping centre to allow this which of course has stopped the job dead in it's tracks. This is on top of the 7 figure sum to actually put the dozen chargers in.

Bonkers money so a few wealthy people can charge their cars while their shopping.

Yes, this is no joke... I may have mentioned it before on here, so forgive the early onset of dementia if so :)

in an area of just 20km2 I have heard dozens of stories already regarding capacity.


My little brother has bought a house last year and intended to get rid of the gas heater but after much debate he was not able to upgrade his 1x25A connection to more than 3x25A, effectively only going from a single phase to 3 phase. 3x35A (which would be needed for an instant hot water unit) was just not going to happen.
A mate of mine has a kid that plays soccer, he sees other parents regularly and one of them got a new EV since the company forced it on him basically. He noticed he was charging his car on the electric charger in de parking lot of the sport complex. When asked why "I get bumped into being a business user/account by the power company if I use more than 17000kw per anum and that costs so much that it is cheaper to charge here"
That same mate works at a government owned and operated sewage treatment plant and they recently installed 2.7megawatt's of solar in a disused field. The power company has already told them that they are limited to 1.7 since they can't handle it. Since the power company can operate the inverters (switching banks off, which is a requirement with large installations) they can't even use the surplus power to charge their EV's
My car mechanic just moved places and the new location has 50kw of solar on the roof, from a time that nobody looked at what they were doing. In order to facilitate the large currents that he can put back into the grid he has a 3x80A connection which costs a fortune. We were looking into lowering the connection to the grid and switching the solar to batteries instead. He has already been warned that he CAN downgrade, but won't be able/allowed to upgrade back "ever" (ie. foreseeable future).
And to top it all off, a combination of the two above; a local school (so that is again public money) spend a fortune to fill their roofs with solar, stupidly/naively thinking that they were doing "the right thing" and when time came to hook it up the power company simply said: we don't have the excess capacity in the grid for this, at all, you can not switch it on. This means that the investment is rotting away, there is no solar power to charge their EV's with AND since they could not get the larger hook up to the grid the EV chargers they installed can't even be used since that would blow the mains to the entire school.


These are all stories from people that I know first hand and I have even worked on the electrical setup of half of them, not hearsay. This entire fiasco is beginning to look like a very VERY expensive pink elephant...

Then again, I broke my foot (yeah I know, dumb :P) and my bookkeeper took my out for dinner in his EV renault thingy. As a passenger I am ok with them ;)

Cheers,
-P

[V8Ian]

189990

[NavyDiver]

Yes, this is no joke... I may have mentioned it before on here, so forgive the early onset of dementia if so :)

in an area of just 20km2 I have heard dozens of stories already regarding capacity.


My little brother has bought a house last year and intended to get rid of the gas heater but after much debate he was not able to upgrade his 1x25A connection to more than 3x25A, effectively only going from a single phase to 3 phase. 3x35A (which would be needed for an instant hot water unit) was just not going to happen.
A mate of mine has a kid that plays soccer, he sees other parents regularly and one of them got a new EV since the company forced it on him basically. He noticed he was charging his car on the electric charger in de parking lot of the sport complex. When asked why "I get bumped into being a business user/account by the power company if I use more than 17000kw per anum and that costs so much that it is cheaper to charge here"
That same mate works at a government owned and operated sewage treatment plant and they recently installed 2.7megawatt's of solar in a disused field. The power company has already told them that they are limited to 1.7 since they can't handle it. Since the power company can operate the inverters (switching banks off, which is a requirement with large installations) they can't even use the surplus power to charge their EV's
My car mechanic just moved places and the new location has 50kw of solar on the roof, from a time that nobody looked at what they were doing. In order to facilitate the large currents that he can put back into the grid he has a 3x80A connection which costs a fortune. We were looking into lowering the connection to the grid and switching the solar to batteries instead. He has already been warned that he CAN downgrade, but won't be able/allowed to upgrade back "ever" (ie. foreseeable future).
And to top it all off, a combination of the two above; a local school (so that is again public money) spend a fortune to fill their roofs with solar, stupidly/naively thinking that they were doing "the right thing" and when time came to hook it up the power company simply said: we don't have the excess capacity in the grid for this, at all, you can not switch it on. This means that the investment is rotting away, there is no solar power to charge their EV's with AND since they could not get the larger hook up to the grid the EV chargers they installed can't even be used since that would blow the mains to the entire school.


These are all stories from people that I know first hand and I have even worked on the electrical setup of half of them, not hearsay. This entire fiasco is beginning to look like a very VERY expensive pink elephant...

Then again, I broke my foot (yeah I know, dumb :P) and my bookkeeper took my out for dinner in his EV renault thingy. As a passenger I am ok with them ;)

Cheers,
-P

Off grid kit and export controls system would have fixed each or most of those issues? My (prior) work was scheduled to be doubled the amount that could be exported. We used 90% saving a lot more than export cents deliberately.

The EXPORT limits are only a issue if you cannot use your own. The School my kids used to go to were confronted by the same issue you highlighted. 5kWh export limit!!! We put 40 kWh on the school and they use all of it 95% of the time exept weekend where it is throttled to export limit. The Hybrid inverters can do that out of the box now easily now.
What is a hybrid inverter — Clean Energy Reviews (https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/what-is-a-hybrid-inverter)

Back to EV. Looked at a VW Xc40 and C40 this morning. They could tow my boat :) I won't as the solid state from a business largely backed by VW will be commencing production later this year. Add the road noise notes on reviews was not impressive to my hears :)

[akelly]

this thread never fails to deliver the biggest load of bull**** on this website. And that's saying something.

[prelude]

this thread never fails to deliver the biggest load of bull**** on this website. And that's saying something.

I guess that comes with this subject. There seems to be a direct relationship when I gauge other sites on the web ;)

@NavyDiver

I can imagine a few solutions to that as well but since the export power limitations have caught people out here (naively thinking that anything goes) hybrid inverters were never considered in most cases. Sure, they could probably try and get those but now that the info is out most people won't want to buy the older style :)

Also, my guess is that oz gets a bit more sun-hours a year then we get so have more solar could be beneficial since you wont be putting out the max very often. I mean, with 2.7mw of solar where your limit is 1.7mw you would get to the max early and stay that for longer without al the ups and downs due to changing light conditions. I GUESS that is plus? not sure. I mean, since this is about charging ev's I know I can vary the voltage over my batteries from solar and they will happily charge quicker or slower without issues seemingly. But I am not sure how that relates to EV chargers, I guess they simply want X amount of current from the grid and are not suitable for this style of charging?

-P

[NavyDiver]

I guess that comes with this subject. There seems to be a direct relationship when I gauge other sites on the web ;)

@NavyDiver

I can imagine a few solutions to that as well but since the export power limitations have caught people out here (naively thinking that anything goes) hybrid inverters were never considered in most cases. Sure, they could probably try and get those but now that the info is out most people won't want to buy the older style :)

Also, my guess is that oz gets a bit more sun-hours a year then we get so have more solar could be beneficial since you wont be putting out the max very often. I mean, with 2.7mw of solar where your limit is 1.7mw you would get to the max early and stay that for longer without al the ups and downs due to changing light conditions. I GUESS that is plus? not sure. I mean, since this is about charging ev's I know I can vary the voltage over my batteries from solar and they will happily charge quicker or slower without issues seemingly. But I am not sure how that relates to EV chargers, I guess they simply want X amount of current from the grid and are not suitable for this style of charging?

-P

A good mate with a BIG Wedding /Winery browns out the entire area due to the power supply outside his sort of rural site. [thumbsupbig] The Wedding /Winery now has a big diesel gen set to power several power hungry cooking and AC units on a off grid circuit as the Grid cannot do it. Its a simple fact that most or many people have similar wires restricting both what they can use at their house, farm or business due to the grid supply and solar export restrictions. "Electricity bills set to rise as Australian Energy Regulator sets new network transmission cost (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-30/electricity-bills-rising-as-energy-regulator-increases-costs/103784950?utm_source=abc_news_app&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_campaign=abc_news_app&utm_content=other)

"

A fox type news service has a much more entertaining version of above. The entertaining or total waffle is an opinion of course. Excuse me if my thoughts or opinions upset people. Thats not my objective at all. Debate is fine. Nasty is no fun at all. I have done all the fighting I ever with to do for the rest of my life happily.



Back to EV- Electric Jesus "Tesla Axing Its Supercharger Team Puts The Entire Industry In The Dark"
I used a Tesla superduper charger just once. It was a lot slower than another one not so far away and cost 3 times as much for the power. [bigwhistle]

'IF' as it seems likely that his halo has fallen off now, that may be an interesting area to watch. Same issue will stop electric farm equipment taking hold. Bodes well for copper perhaps.

[Homestar]

One thing most don't seem to understand is that superchargers will automatically limit their current to a level depending on how many chargers in the group are being used at one time. If a stand of 10 chargers has all 10 being used then it's likely the max you'd get out of one would be under 100KW as the subs feeding them are generally around 1MW max - some I've seen are half this as that's all the power that's available so it's common at peak times to have very slow charging off the supercharger network.

And who knows how many more they'll actually put in now there is no one in that department to do anything.

[NavyDiver]

One thing most don't seem to understand is that superchargers will automatically limit their current to a level depending on how many chargers in the group are being used at one time. If a stand of 10 chargers has all 10 being used then it's likely the max you'd get out of one would be under 100KW as the subs feeding them are generally around 1MW max - some I've seen are half this as that's all the power that's available so it's common at peak times to have very slow charging off the supercharger network.

And who knows how many more they'll actually put in now there is no one in that department to do anything.

The new Port Fairy 50kWh ev charger with two plugs than can be used concurrently, halve the charge rates when both are in use. Well, planned and clearly more expensive places such as "167 Tarcombe St, Euroa VIC 3666, Australia" has a expensive 'power reservoir' and some solar boost or maintain the charge rates. Thats not perfect either! The Mobile Phone reception at that site was PITA to start charging It says that they are all broken today! "RACV Euroa (2) 350kW DC Ultra Rapid Chargers (CCS2 / CHAdeMO). These charges are temporarily curtailed to a max output of 100kW across the two stations. (2) 50kW DC Fast Chargers (CCS2 / CHAdeMO). [B]These chargers are currently out of order. Both on Chargefox network. On highway side of Shell, opposite McDonalds McCafe Express ordering sign"

That would be as big an issue as reliability of the chargers is clearly not rock solid. The Ballarat RACV ones got vandalized New Years eve. all but one were still broken last time I was in Ballarat.

[Homestar]

The new Port Fairy 50kWh ev charger with two plugs than can be used concurrently, halve the charge rates when both are in use. Well, planned and clearly more expensive places such as "167 Tarcombe St, Euroa VIC 3666, Australia" has a expensive 'power reservoir' and some solar boost or maintain the charge rates. Thats not perfect either! The Mobile Phone reception at that site was PITA to start charging It says that they are all broken today! "RACV Euroa (2) 350kW DC Ultra Rapid Chargers (CCS2 / CHAdeMO). These charges are temporarily curtailed to a max output of 100kW across the two stations. (2) 50kW DC Fast Chargers (CCS2 / CHAdeMO). [B]These chargers are currently out of order. Both on Chargefox network. On highway side of Shell, opposite McDonalds McCafe Express ordering sign"

That would be as big an issue as reliability of the chargers is clearly not rock solid. The Ballarat RACV ones got vandalized New Years eve. all but one were still broken last time I was in Ballarat.

Seems to be a common issue globally that charging networks are pretty unreliable - apart from Teslas, and who knows where that one is going now.

[prelude]

I thinks Tesla had the benefit of being the first, both in putting EV's in the market as well as rolling out the chargers. When they rolled around asking for a huge electrical connection the power companies would usually shrug and say, ok fine, we have that spare capacity over there for you. If they didn't they'd probably have a discussion as the where the nearest place would be that could handle it.No biggy.

However, now that everyone want more power the grid is already severely lopsided and overburdened it has become increasingly difficult to to make that work...

I await the european summer and am looking forward to see what the route du soleil looks like this year. There used to be huge traffic jams at the shell petrol station in luxembourg for fuel since that was the first cheap spot to fill up and a couple of years ago you would get massive waiting lines at the EV chargers. The amount of EV's had risen but I doubt that the chargers have increased by a a lot in those hotspots on the tollroads. Even if they did, I don't think it feasible to get multiple megawatts in capacity at a petrol station easily :)

-P

[simonmelb]

And over 4600 EVs from China (mostly MGs) have just been unloaded from the ship into the port of Bristol. - being sold for under. GPB 10k ea 😳 so the UK and Eu car manufacturers are a tad worried about things!


I thinks Tesla had the benefit of being the first, both in putting EV's in the market as well as rolling out the chargers. When they rolled around asking for a huge electrical connection the power companies would usually shrug and say, ok fine, we have that spare capacity over there for you. If they didn't they'd probably have a discussion as the where the nearest place would be that could handle it.No biggy.

However, now that everyone want more power the grid is already severely lopsided and overburdened it has become increasingly difficult to to make that work...

I await the european summer and am looking forward to see what the route du soleil looks like this year. There used to be huge traffic jams at the shell petrol station in luxembourg for fuel since that was the first cheap spot to fill up and a couple of years ago you would get massive waiting lines at the EV chargers. The amount of EV's had risen but I doubt that the chargers have increased by a a lot in those hotspots on the tollroads. Even if they did, I don't think it feasible to get multiple megawatts in capacity at a petrol station easily :)

-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

And over 4600 EVs from China (mostly MGs) have just been unloaded from the ship into the port of Bristol. - being sold for under. GPB 10k ea 😳 so the UK and Eu car manufacturers are a tad worried about things!
Haven't been on here for a while. Haven't needed to drive the defender. 600km since we got back from the Simpson at the start of Oct. Including a trip to bribie and MR. All our miles that can't be done on a bike go on the EV.

I don't get the people in this thread.

"Ev's are too expensive so are rubbish"

Nooo

"Ev's are too cheap they must be junk"

The grid can't handle it ... they the power companies will have to spend money to make this work. Imagine how much money a supermarket could make if they didn't have to build shops and employ people so they could sell stuff? If they have to put in more capacity it's because they will be selling more power! Which is what they do to earn money. FFS.

Meanwhile I think this will be a good answer for some. Thanks emissions standards.

Could this cheap Japanese EV work in Australia? Mitsubishi eK X electric car being assessed for possible Aussie launch, but what's the BYD Dolphin, MG4 rival actually like to drive? - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/could-this-cheap-japanese-ev-work-in-australia-mitsubishi-ek-x-electric-car-being-assessed)

[Homestar]

The grid can't handle it ... they the power companies will have to spend money to make this work. Imagine how much money a supermarket could make if they didn't have to build shops and employ people so they could sell stuff? If they have to put in more capacity it's because they will be selling more power! Which is what they do to earn money. FFS.



Spoken like someone that has zero idea about what's involved - which sadly is the majority. Do you think Engineers looks for ways NOT to do things? "Just make more power and get it to where it's needed" - One of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time. If it would lead to making more money, they might actually look at it, but the return on investment is woeful. Money makes the world go around - there isn't any in EV Charging - if there was do you think Tritium would have gone bust or would Tesla have sacked it's entire Charging division?

Supply Authorities aren't going near this without someone paying up front as if they don't get their money then, they never will and none of them would even have the money to do what's being asked - you're talking 100's of BILLIONS of dollars and decades of work. The EV charging network won't expand to be able to cover everyone going to EV's or even a fraction of the Population. If you can home charge, EV's make perfect sense, but again, this just won't work for the majority.

One example I posted earlier - cost to run 1MW upgrade 3KM to a shopping center for a 12 spot charging station was quoted at $14,500,000. If you had 50% utilsation (it's probably more like 10% but I'm being generous) of those 12 spots selling the power at retail prices your payback is just over 11 years - not something I'd put my money into.

Not sure how many times people have to point some of these things but the EV zealots just stick their heads in the sand and ignore the truth - as you say FFS...

[Tins]

And over 4600 EVs from China (mostly MGs) have just been unloaded from the ship into the port of Bristol. - being sold for under. GPB 10k ea 😳 so the UK and Eu car manufacturers are a tad worried about things!

Yes, well, there are already thousands of the things sitting on wharves in Germany, Belgium, Italy and Turkey, with no buyers and no proper infrastructure. It won't be long before they start turning the ships away, and China is building more car carriers! Car carriers aren not easily converted to carry other freight. Maybe California could buy some to accommodate their homeless. If they cared, that is.

[NavyDiver]

Those who don't like batteries in except in their cars, phones, watches ........ may love this hospital ban on EV parking[biggrin] Electric car driver turned away from hospital car park (bbc.com) (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c90zjne2v0jo)

The valid power transmission line comment by a man who knows what he is talking about makes me smile [biggrin] Not as much as my share portfolio and superfund[thumbsupbig]

EVs do need thought and planning. Our power grids require a lot more than the bravado often seen by some [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[prelude]

I often wondered about the power reductions vs increases we as a society have managed over the last say decade. Since environmentalists have shoved LED lights down our throat I guess we have reduced power consumption by anything from 50% to 90% for lighting. Not sure how much of the power consumption is actually light though. But lets take an average household and assume they had 10 bulbs, 60 watts each on at night and replaced those with 6 watt LED for simplicities sake. In stead of 600 watts you now consume 60. That means you have 540 watts to spend "elsewhere". Again assuming 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of darkness you would have at most 5.4kw to spare and extra capacity on the grid since we used to consume that but no longer do the grid was up to that. That means that with the average consumption of an EV of 200 watts and up per kilometer, you would be able to charge 30km of range with that excess of power (charging is not 100% efficient so I deducted a bit for that).

I am pretty sure that won't be enough for most people to commute to work (and back). If I add to that, that up here in europe AC's were a luxury item or limited to offices up till fairly recently and you get a good picture of the insane amount of power we are needing... extra. We need to get off gas it seems, we have abundance in natural gas here but the gubberment has shut that down as per next month afaik. That means that people are not only cooling their houses in summer, which we did not used to do, but warming them in winter with electricity which needs to be generated but more importantly distributed and we still have not charged a single EV ;)

No, EV charging is not an easy problem and it will certainly not be fixed in the short term nor will it be cheap. If we ignore artificial pricing of fuel, most countries tax it heavily like down here for instance the total amount going to the state is like 70-80%, EV charging has already become more expensive than petrol or diesel and with the price hikes in electricity due to grid upgrade costs and the added unreliability of "green" options (relatively speaking! not saying that they are totally unreliable!) I believe that the EV "revolution" is more like an evolution and one that has quite some warts and all. No, new battery tech will not solve this problem in the least and at most cause more problems since they would charge EVEN FASTER (but we cant).

Not trying to be a censored here :) But I agree with Homestar that the challenges are highly downplayed and misunderstood.

Cheers,
-P

[Homestar]

Well those that think the charging network is going to get much bigger may want to rethink this. For the time being I think it will stay as it is. With Tritium going tits up (apparently the Global leader) I'm not sure who will step in to take on this (Obviously unprofitable) void.

And I've just heard from a major supplier here in Australia that their pipeline of new charger installations from Tesla has been cancelled effective immediately so they will get to finish the projects that were underway but for the time being, no new Tesla charging stations in Australia - I'm assuming this will be mirrored around the globe given Tesla no longer have a charging division. The effect of this will be felt by many and the experience in this industry will be watered down as people go off and find other work to do, so if/when these things get back on track the industry will have to start from a point much further back that it currently is.

So, looks like those requiring charging away from home will have to take pot luck with the current unreliable network and hope not too many more buy EV's or we'll see a replication of the massive hours long queue's you see in 'Murica.

Not sure how anyone could put a positive spin on all of this but I'm betting someone will try. I'm not happy about any of this by the way, or trying to gloat as contrary to what some think here I'm not an EV hater and these issues directly effect myself and the company I work for as we were involved in a small part of this supply chain. Not a big part but I know plenty that were entrenched in the industry who are now facing having to find other work.

[PhilipA]

So I had a look at Tesla Superchargers in the Central Coast. There is one general one at Tuggerah Supercentre on the top floor of the carpark with 5 chargers. I would imagine that if all were in use it would throttle the charge rate.
There are a few "destination Chargers "at Bells of Kilcare ( very expensive B&B and restaurant) and a couple of others at The Entrance.
So the coverage on the Central Coast is terrible. This according to Google.

I was looking as Model 3s are getting pretty cheap, with one "performance" for sale in Sydney for 32K and several around for 36K upwards , nearly all private sales as it seems dealers do not want to touch them. So the real sales prices may be much less.
I cannot put a level 2 charger in as I live in a retirement village with single phase.
I have an acquaintance who is a Musk 'Fan boy" with a Model 3 Long Range who is retired in a retirement village and has solar, so charges at home for free. Looks like a pretty slim target market up here. He paid upwards of 80K for his. Constantly tells us of his derring doo including stealing power when on trips.
Regards Philip A

[Homestar]

I live in a town of 35,000 people 1/2 hour North West of the Melbourne CBD - we have 1 public charger in the entire town - and it's been broken for over a year. In fact I just checked on line and it's not even listed any more. So if you own an EV and want to come and visit me, make sure you can get back to a charger before doing so. [biggrin]

Slim pickings when you move out of the City. There are chargers spaced close enough together to get between them but each site seems to mainly have just 1 x 50KW or 1 x 25KW charger so if you roll in and someone has just started a charge already, you're in for an even longer wait.

[Tins]

Slim pickings when you move out of the City. There are chargers spaced close enough together to get between them but each site seems to mainly have just 1 x 50KW or 1 x 25KW charger so if you roll in and someone has just started a charge already, you're in for an even longer wait.

There's a local supermarket affiliated fuel site near me ( no charger ) that is small. For some reason they get bulk fuel deliveries via B-Double. When this happens the site is closed. The wait time is less than there is at most charging sites I've seen.
A popular local bakery/caff had a Tesla charger in their carpark.. until they relocated. Virtue signalling wasn't worth the cost of relocating the charger, apparently.

[Homestar]

Those who don't like batteries in except in their cars, phones, watches ........ may love this hospital ban on EV parking[biggrin] Electric car driver turned away from hospital car park (bbc.com) (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c90zjne2v0jo)

The valid power transmission line comment by a man who knows what he is talking about makes me smile [biggrin] Not as much as my share portfolio and superfund[thumbsupbig]

EVs do need thought and planning. Our power grids require a lot more than the bravado often seen by some [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

This cracked me up in the linked article. - Fair Charge, a campaign group for electric vehicles, described it as “misinformation erroneously shaping public policy”.

The zealot EV campaigners have spread misinformation of their own to the highest levels of Government and to the Public - Hypocrisy at its finest. It's obviously fine for them to do it but heaven help us that someone turns their tactics back on them.

[Tins]

The zealot EV campaigners have spread misinformation of their own to the highest levels of Government and to the Public - Hypocrisy at its finest. It's obviously fine for them to do it but heaven help us that someone turns their tactics back on them.

Always the way. They have nothing to argue with so they just shout down any contrary views, and then add slurs.

[NavyDiver]

This cracked me up in the linked article. - Fair Charge, a campaign group for electric vehicles, described it as “misinformation erroneously shaping public policy”.

The zealot EV campaigners have spread misinformation of their own to the highest levels of Government and to the Public - Hypocrisy at its finest. It's obviously fine for them to do it but heaven help us that someone turns their tactics back on them.
So much waffle in so many places. A Decoupled Pod cast suggesting if three EV home chargers were in a single street the power infrastructure may be overwhelmed. Netherlands report I think?

The same issue on Steroids in Wind and solar connections which are both too much at times and too little at other.

Planning or LACK of it is added to be zeolots on all sides of electrification. Coffee planned to chat with a sparky in two hours about this[biggrin] The Heat Pumps, Induction Cook tops, Airconditioning and EVs are load that may not have been allowed for perhaps in some of our homes and businesses connections?

On EV only. Melbourne, Ballarat to Port Fairy and school run with no charging stops saw 6% left last night. I considered that carefully over a beer at the Stump. :) 320ish and a bit more. My first Disco could do 1000+ with the long range tank full of $$$$$$$ diesel of course. The beer and dinner was $47. The 50kWh charge was $33

I could work out the cost for the several times I did the same trip in my Disco.

[Homestar]

So much waffle in so many places. A Decoupled Pod cast suggesting if three EV home chargers were in a single street the power infrastructure may be overwhelmed. Netherlands report I think?

The same issue on Steroids in Wind and solar connections which are both too much at times and too little at other.

Planning or LACK of it is added to be zeolots on all sides of electrification. Coffee planned to chat with a sparky in two hours about this[biggrin] The Heat Pumps, Induction Cook tops, Airconditioning and EVs are load that may not have been allowed for perhaps in some of our homes and businesses connections?

On EV only. Melbourne, Ballarat to Port Fairy and school run with no charging stops saw 6% left last night. I considered that carefully over a beer at the Stump. :) 320ish and a bit more. My first Disco could do 1000+ with the long range tank full of $$$$$$$ diesel of course. The beer and dinner was $47. The 50kWh charge was $33

I could work out the cost for the several times I did the same trip in my Disco.

The move away from gas is a whole other issue. We can't do it at our place as I only have a 32amp supply for the whole house. While this is heaps and has been for the last 23 years I've lived there we recently renovated the kitchen and looking at Induction cooktops the one I wanted draws 30.9 amps (full load current with 3 elements going) which wouldn't happen everyday, but would happen so that basically taps out my entire supply - when I would need to use my electric oven at the same time (13 amps) and maybe wanting to boil a kettle (8 amps) so not something I would want to manage my way around so a new gas stovetop it was.

Just looking at your numbers to Port Fairy - yes, much cheaper than the Disco I'm sure but if you want to compare something a little closer my partner did a run to Warnambool and back last week for work in her Hybrid (Rav4). Averaged 5.6 litres per hundred so for the trip to Port Fairy and say $2 a litre it would have cost around $36 for the trip using dinosaur squeezing's - but she'd still have more than half a tank left and can turn around and drive home - which is what she did and still had fuel in the tank when she got back. I'm sure your EV has many benefits for you and I'm not wanting to rag on it but if you're looking at it from a fuel cost perspective only the calculations are similar for a Hybrid without the range anxiety.

[NavyDiver]

The move away from gas is a whole other issue. We can't do it at our place as I only have a 32amp supply for the whole house. While this is heaps and has been for the last 23 years I've lived there we recently renovated the kitchen and looking at Induction cooktops the one I wanted draws 30.9 amps (full load current with 3 elements going) which wouldn't happen everyday, but would happen so that basically taps out my entire supply - when I would need to use my electric oven at the same time (13 amps) and maybe wanting to boil a kettle (8 amps) so not something I would want to manage my way around so a new gas stovetop it was.

Just looking at your numbers to Port Fairy - yes, much cheaper than the Disco I'm sure but if you want to compare something a little closer my partner did a run to Warnambool and back last week for work in her Hybrid (Rav4). Averaged 5.6 litres per hundred so for the trip to Port Fairy and say $2 a litre it would have cost around $36 for the trip using dinosaur squeezing's - but she'd still have more than half a tank left and can turn around and drive home - which is what she did and still had fuel in the tank when she got back. I'm sure your EV has many benefits for you and I'm not wanting to rag on it but if you're looking at it from a fuel cost perspective only the calculations are similar for a Hybrid without the range anxiety.

The Medical Centre blew off with my several lazer printers all restarting again and again until a smart sparky found they were the issue years later after spending a motza on stuff I didn't need once the problem was found. Hybids are fine. My tight wad backside still wants to leave the ONES WHO WILL NOT BE NAMED -Ok I have to now Spanner monkeys :), Appreciate it is always do it your way not as told by evangelist's types :)

[prelude]

What I already mentioned recently is that fuel, aka dyno juice (though it's actually dead plankton right? :P), is taxed into oblivion in most countries in the world. It's all nice and well that you pay less for electric charging at the moment but I am pretty sure it will not stay that way.

If the government loses billions in tax income from lack of fuel sales, they will get it somewhere else. You are not seriously suggesting they would just let you live cheaper right? :) Yes yes, solar could help but one of many things that could happen is: tax increase on solar panels, tax increase on home batteries, tax increase on kw/h from the grid or just a tax increase on your beer... you can bet that it will come out of your pocket :)

I have been looking into helping a mate of mine get off the grid (he has 50KW of solar on his roof). I am particularly knowledgeable of victron stuff since I have done the electrics on a number of yachts but they have some nice gear where you can set the max current from shore/generator (or in your case the grid) and if it hits that, it will start using extra from batteries. That could be a consideration for those with small single phase grid connections. It's a very expensive solution just for a induction hob though :)

Cheers,
-P

[Tins]

Said many times I'll never buy an EV. OK, so I lied. I win the lottery I'm getting one of these things. And taking it to Wombat.


https://youtu.be/2Cnt73jHJFI'si=aiQVou-9J6XlLp_4

[Homestar]

Coll indeed but the first time one of these falls out of the sky and kills someone it will be game over unless you have a pilots license and the aircraft is fully certified by (Insert countries aviation authority here) so won't be any different from any other light aircraft. Forget about ever being able to have them fly over a populated area like a city as well - can you imagine if/when one killed someone on ground...

[Tins]

Coll indeed but the first time one of these falls out of the sky and kills someone it will be game over unless you have a pilots license and the aircraft is fully certified by (Insert countries aviation authority here) so won't be any different from any other light aircraft. Forget about ever being able to have them fly over a populated area like a city as well - can you imagine if/when one killed someone on ground...

Don't see them as being much different to an ultralight as far as regs go (https://www.casa.gov.au/aircraft/sport-aviation/types-sport-aircraft-and-activities#LightSportAircraft). And I sure wouldn't want to fly over a city.

[Xtreme]

I'd love to fly over/around places like the Simpson Desert in one of those.

[Arapiles]

They'll need to shield the rotors - anyone walking up to one is going to get cut in half.

[101RRS]

They'll need to shield the rotors - anyone walking up to one is going to get cut in half.

No different to any light plane or the tail rotor on a helicopter.

[Arapiles]

No different to any light plane or the tail rotor on a helicopter.

Different axes to those - it's like the blades of a helicopter but at waist height.

[Homestar]

This is quite humorous IMO. Muricans turning their backs on Euro EV's and at the same time Europe turning their backs on Murican EV's. Obviously behind the headlines there's more going on and that seems to be the massive uptick in sales of PHEV's so it will be interesting to see where the trend goes over the next 12 to 24 months. For my situation and many like me a PHEV would make sense and covers off the many issues a straight EV has for so many. We have a straight Yota Hybrid at the moment but will see what PHEV prices and sales are like when it comes time to change it.

Volvo’s US EV Sales Crater 69% In Q1 | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/volvos-us-ev-sales-crater-69-in-q1/)

Volvo shines in European EV market as Tesla deliveries drop (https://autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/volvo-shines-in-european-ev-market-as-tesla-deliveries-drop/)

[NavyDiver]

This is quite humorous IMO. Muricans turning their backs on Euro EV's and at the same time Europe turning their backs on Murican EV's. Obviously behind the headlines there's more going on and that seems to be the massive uptick in sales of PHEV's so it will be interesting to see where the trend goes over the next 12 to 24 months. For my situation and many like me a PHEV would make sense and covers off the many issues a straight EV has for so many. We have a straight Yota Hybrid at the moment but will see what PHEV prices and sales are like when it comes time to change it.

Volvo’s US EV Sales Crater 69% In Q1 | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/volvos-us-ev-sales-crater-69-in-q1/)

Volvo shines in European EV market as Tesla deliveries drop (https://autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/volvo-shines-in-european-ev-market-as-tesla-deliveries-drop/)

Away from home charging is getting very congested. Especially where at multiplug sites many are broken like in Ballarat and ones at Airport west where over 1/2 have been broken for several months now. RACV sights run by chargefox. Ballarat were vandalized New years eve I think! The Business Model for Charging is clearly NOT a money spinner!!!!

While waiting I saw my fist EV delivery truck. 190130NSW plates here in Vic.

The Driver said he had to charge daily! It might be this one T5 Electric Truck - Foton Mobility Distribution Australia (https://www.fotonmobility.com.au/t5-electric-truck)

The charge time is a shocker! Not on my shopping list!

Add the delays to access charging and doubt it will be a hot item here unless depot with charging and limited range needed. The one in my pic is a IKEA delivery vehicle.

[Homestar]

Away from home charging is getting very congested. Especially where at multiplug sites many are broken like in Ballarat and ones at Airport west where over 1/2 have been broken for several months now. RACV sights run by chargefox. Ballarat were vandalized New years eve I think! The Business Model for Charging is clearly NOT a money spinner!!!!

While waiting I saw my fist EV delivery truck. 190130NSW plates here in Vic.

The Driver said he had to charge daily! It might be this one T5 Electric Truck - Foton Mobility Distribution Australia (https://www.fotonmobility.com.au/t5-electric-truck)

The charge time is a shocker! Not on my shopping list!

Add the delays to access charging and doubt it will be a hot item here unless depot with charging and limited range needed. The one in my pic is a IKEA delivery vehicle.

I can neither confirm nor deny that some of these exact trucks are being charged off a diesel generator every night at the moment... [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

I can neither confirm nor deny that some of these exact trucks are being charged off a diesel generator every night at the moment... [bigwhistle]

Feel good greenwashing type business clearly not confirmed and I bet would loudly deny the allegations [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well.. as I forecast some time ago. The grid operators are offering EV owners sweet deals to not charge during peaks or when the grid is under stress.

I've got it set up and it's working. Seems pretty clever. Its an app that talks to the car, so is independent of So I think it's now costing me 8c/kwh. So about $1.30 per hundred travelled. I never charged in peak anyway.

This way the grid survives, and the power companies sell more power. I expect much further work in this space in the years to come. A number of companies are offering free ev charging during the day too.

EV Power Up - Electric Vehicle Charging - Origin Energy (https://www.originenergy.com.au/origin-loop/electric-vehicle-charging/ev-power-up/)

[Old Farang]

The designers of what is planned to be Australia’s first certified advanced air mobility aircraft say technology and safety go hand in hand.

Vertical challenger | Flight Safety Australia (https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2024/05/vertical-challenger/?utm_source=Swift%20Digital&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Flight%20Safety%20Australia)

[Tins]

The designers of what is planned to be Australia’s first certified advanced air mobility aircraft say technology and safety go hand in hand.

Vertical challenger | Flight Safety Australia (https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2024/05/vertical-challenger/?utm_source=Swift%20Digital&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Flight%20Safety%20Australia)






"Clear the prop(s)!"

[gromit]

Not sure if this has been posted before.
Swap-and-go truck batteries......just need the infrastructure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXnerXbmiRA

Colin

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Tesla significantly reduce prices of their vehicles. Expect this to not only affect the EV market, but to bleed to the ICE market too. A Camry Hybrid is now only a few K less than a Model 3 for instance.

Meanwhile in the EV space, most legacy manufacturers are at least $10-20k more than an equivalent Tesla. Ouch.

Tesla Model Y, Model 3 receive major price cuts in Australia | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-model-y-model-3-receive-major-price-cuts-in-australia)

[PhilipA]

Great for resale values.
How long before a mid 20K Model 3 if not already.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Tesla significantly reduce prices of their vehicles. Expect this to not only affect the EV market, but to bleed to the ICE market too. A Camry Hybrid is now only a few K less than a Model 3 for instance.

Meanwhile in the EV space, most legacy manufacturers are at least $10-20k more than an equivalent Tesla. Ouch.

Tesla Model Y, Model 3 receive major price cuts in Australia | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/tesla-model-y-model-3-receive-major-price-cuts-in-australia)

Camry Hybrid - from $44K
Tesla Model 3 - from $56K

Getting closer but not quite... The base model Camry SX Hybrid is also better appointed inside IMO - we have a near new 24 model at work - nice car, electric everything and well implemented driver assist (Which I hate in all cars but you can turn off everything in the Yota and it stays off). Last Model 3 I drove was nowhere near the fit and finish of a Yota nor anywhere near as nice to be in (Personal opinion only). I think we paid right on $40K for it as a company car with metallic silver paint. I wouldn't compare a Model 3 to the SL - it's nowhere close so I wouldn't use this as a comparison. If the Model 3 was a similar price we may have actually considered one as the daily commute for the person who drives it is around 120KM and that's pretty much all it gets used for but we wouldn't spend an extra $15K for one then have to worry about the resale value when we flip it as that's one of the key reason we still buy Yota's is they still command dumb prices after 5 years which is good for a business that goes through as many cars as we do. My Dmax is the first non Toyota vehicle the company has bought and the Boss grumbled about it for this very reason.

It's not the legacy OEM's that are challenging Tesla - it's the new young upstarts out of China - BYD is tearing Tesla a new one...

[Homestar]

Great for resale values.
How long before a mid 20K Model 3 if not already.
Regards PhilipA

There are 2015 and 2016 Model S's advertised for over $40K still - as Darryl Kerrigan would say "Tell 'em they're dreamin' "

I think mid to high 20's max at the moment with prices only going one way.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Camry Hybrid - from $44K
Tesla Model 3 - from $56K

Getting closer but not quite... The base model Camry SX Hybrid is also better appointed inside IMO - we have a near new 24 model at work - nice car, electric everything and well implemented driver assist (Which I hate in all cars but you can turn off everything in the Yota and it stays off). Last Model 3 I drove was nowhere near the fit and finish of a Yota nor anywhere near as nice to be in (Personal opinion only). I think we paid right on $40K for it as a company car with metallic silver paint. I wouldn't compare a Model 3 to the SL - it's nowhere close so I wouldn't use this as a comparison. If the Model 3 was a similar price we may have actually considered one as the daily commute for the person who drives it is around 120KM and that's pretty much all it gets used for but we wouldn't spend an extra $15K for one then have to worry about the resale value when we flip it as that's one of the key reason we still buy Yota's is they still command dumb prices after 5 years which is good for a business that goes through as many cars as we do. My Dmax is the first non Toyota vehicle the company has bought and the Boss grumbled about it for this very reason.

It's not the legacy OEM's that are challenging Tesla - it's the new young upstarts out of China - BYD is tearing Tesla a new one...
If you think an SX camry is much better in any metric I probably can't help you and you're not being objective. Mcpherson struts, 131kwh .. LOL.

Hows internet connectivity of the Camry? Can you turn the AC on via the app on a hot day? etc etc..

Also.. does the camry get a 6k rebate?

Does the camry cost 1.20 per 100k to run? I guess you enjoy going and talking to the people at the dealer every six months..

[Homestar]

I personally think the SX Camrys interior is a nicer place to be than a model 3. No, it doesn't go as quick or have the suspension yours does - but it's bloody comfy to drive I can tell you - far more comfortable than the lumpy bumpy model 3. If one of your requirements when buying a car is how good the App is and that you can turn the AC on before getting into it - well you do you - I've never needed to - and my Dmax does do that but I've never seen a reason for it personally. You were the one that made the comparison, not me - I just happen to have driven both vehicles you've mentioned so put my 2 cents in as to what I think of both. Don't hate me because I like one better than the other and it isn't what your opinion is - that's just dumb...

Again, you're assuming I'm an EV hater because I don't like the same cars you do - again - dumb. You've shown time and again you're unwilling to accept others opinions on this matter and just think that everyone should love and use EV's because there's nothing that can do the job better.

You always seem to miss the one crucial point - everyone's different and not everyone wants to drive an EV for a host of reasons. Jumping up and down trying to prove they're wrong doesn't - and won't change this. It seems in general, most don't want an EV and hating on someone for buying a Hybrid of all things is at best hypocritical and worst stupid. Think about it for a minute - you're telling me that because a person or company can't or doesn't want an EV so does the next best think and buys a Hybrid is - in your words "not being objective"

I think you should be looking in the mirror when sprouting such rubbish.

Should I be quoting Bill Murray on this one? [bigwhistle][bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I personally think the SX Camrys interior is a nicer place to be than a model 3. No, it doesn't go as quick or have the suspension yours does - but it's bloody comfy to drive I can tell you - far more comfortable than the lumpy bumpy model 3. If one of your requirements when buying a car is how good the App is and that you can turn the AC on before getting into it - well you do you - I've never needed to - and my Dmax does do that but I've never seen a reason for it personally. You were the one that made the comparison, not me - I just happen to have driven both vehicles you've mentioned so put my 2 cents in as to what I think of both. Don't hate me because I like one better than the other and it isn't what your opinion is - that's just dumb...

Again, you're assuming I'm an EV hater because I don't like the same cars you do - again - dumb. You've shown time and again you're unwilling to accept others opinions on this matter and just think that everyone should love and use EV's because there's nothing that can do the job better.

You always seem to miss the one crucial point - everyone's different and not everyone wants to drive an EV for a host of reasons. Jumping up and down trying to prove they're wrong doesn't - and won't change this. It seems in general, most don't want an EV and hating on someone for buying a Hybrid of all things is at best hypocritical and worst stupid. Think about it for a minute - you're telling me that because a person or company can't or doesn't want an EV so does the next best think and buys a Hybrid is - in your words "not being objective"

I think you should be looking in the mirror when sprouting such rubbish.

Should I be quoting Bill Murray on this one? [bigwhistle][bigrolf]
I was giggling about this after. Hit me with something the camry has that the Model 3 doesn't? I had to buy a Toyota for the kids (was cheap). Getting into it is just like going back in time. Oh look.. the lights don't switch on automatically. You have to move everything to where you had it last time after someone else has driven it. It doesn't remember what you were listening to on spotify last time you drove it - or what temperature you liked. And my favourite was you walk up and it doesn't unlock itself, and it isn't automatically running when you clip your seabelt in. People just kept walking off and leaving it unlocked. And you need a key. LOLOLOL Plus I had to do oil changes, gearbox oil changes. I've got to do the coolant. FFS. Man talk about blast from the past.

All you've got for me is "I reckon the camry is nicerer". That's not being objective. I've never owned more than one car of one brand (actually up until our last Toyota purchase which now makes two toyotas). I'm just telling it as it is. A guy who loves cars is saying he's been very very impressed with his tesla. Like literally a year on. I can't think of anything I've got to pin on it. Nada.

And do you really think I'm telling everyone that EV's do everything and there is nothing else? You're trying that on the guy who keeps a defender in the garage to go to the desert, and a Lotus in the workshop for Sundays? (headshake). Can't I also appreciate that the EV is really really excellent for all the other automotive requirements of the household? You can't see that?

Fortunately more people seem to agree with me.. Tesla M3 despite being somewhat more expensive got into 14th spot over all with over 17000 sales. I don't know how many the camry sold as it didn't get into the top 20 and I can't be bothered trawling for it.

Do some looking .. be objective. If you said you were trying to compare M3 with a camry hybrid with the Top Gear people they'd laugh at you. But as you say, you do you! Can you compare a top spec camry with a BMW M3? At least the M3 is in with a shot.


https://youtu.be/Srx6VvuKU7c'si=CiKyWO9LRBP4iQvK

[RANDLOVER]

.......While waiting I saw my fist EV delivery truck. 190130NSW plates here in Vic.

The Driver said he had to charge daily! It might be this one T5 Electric Truck - Foton Mobility Distribution Australia (https://www.fotonmobility.com.au/t5-electric-truck)

The charge time is a shocker! Not on my shopping list!

Add the delays to access charging and doubt it will be a hot item here unless depot with charging and limited range needed. The one in my pic is a IKEA delivery vehicle.


I can neither confirm nor deny that some of these exact trucks are being charged off a diesel generator every night at the moment... [bigwhistle]

A stationary engine operating in it's optimum rev range is more efficient than one driving the wheels of a vehicle Why the EV charger in the Nullarbor makes a lot of sense - L2SFBC (https://l2sfbc.com/the-ev-charger-in-the-nullabor/) Which is why I think a lot of cars should be going to this type of EV with range extender engine as we pro'ly don't have enough lithium and other components for EV batteries for all cars yet, IIRC the last one available in Aus was the Chevy Volt and the latest is 2023 Nissan X-Trail ST-L e-Power review - Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/reviews/2023-nissan-x-trail-st-l-e-power-review/)

[vnx205]

Fortunately more people seem to agree with me.. Tesla M3 despite being somewhat more expensive got into 14th spot over all with over 17000 sales. I don't know how many the camry sold as it didn't get into the top 20 and I can't be bothered trawling for it.


It depends which list you look at.
This is the top 10 for April 2024.



Toyota RAV4
Ford Ranger
Toyota HiLux
Ford Everest
Isuzu D-Max
Toyota Corolla
Toyota LandCruiser
Isuzu MU-X
Toyota Camry
Mitsubishi Outlander

https://www.canstarblue.com.au/vehicles/top-selling-cars/

[Homestar]

I was giggling about this after. Hit me with something the camry has that the Model 3 doesn't?

Ride comfort and resale value.

Drops mic and walks off. [emoji16]

But it’s not about that so I think you’ve missed the point. People value things differently - I don’t give a rats arse about performance - I rode a motorbike for years that would eat a model 3 so been there, done that. Actually had a fang on a mates modified Hyabusa the other week - 200HP at the rear wheel and 300kg with my fat arse on it - faaaaarrrrk that things crazy!

Anyway, horses for courses.

Enjoy

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Ride comfort and resale value.

Drops mic and walks off. [emoji16]

But it’s not about that so I think you’ve missed the point. People value things differently - I don’t give a rats arse about performance - I rode a motorbike for years that would eat a model 3 so been there, done that. Actually had a fang on a mates modified Hyabusa the other week - 200HP at the rear wheel and 300kg with my fat arse on it - faaaaarrrrk that things crazy!

Anyway, horses for courses.

Enjoy

More LOLs from me. The guy on a LandRover forum likes his cars to have good resale. [bigrolf]

Anyway leaving that aside - I do think while the price war is hotting up that we are going to see solid EV depreciation. Probably no worse than ice cars of similar prices - but it's going to seem bad after the pandemic boom and early EV resale prices. Lower operating costs will offset this (likely with change).

The thing is IMHO the EV price war is not just going to be about EV's. It's going to spread to ICE cars. Pretty soon people will have the choice of a second hand camry hybrid or an brand new (likely chinese) EV for similar prices. The EV won't have the range of the camry, but will beat it in all other respects. Lower costs for "fuel", less servicing etc.

I remember when Hyundai hit the Australian market. The resale of all secondhand cars dropped because you could buy a second hand car or a new Hyundai. IMHO it not going to be long until legacy manufacturers give up competing with the coming EV wave, and will try and hide in the corners of the markets that EV's aren't competitive in. Like the 4x4 ute market and large 4x4. And even then I expect some pain as EV manufacturers try to hit that market.

And it's happening even faster than I expected. I thought we would see this end of the decade but looks like it's going to be the next few years.

But I guess it's easy to ignore little old me. The thing is there are a lot of industry insiders who have seen what's happening in China and are just saying "We're f#$%ed".

From the head of Kia.

"Australia's new-car market is set to "change dramatically", with the influx of Chinese brands, putting legacy car makers at real risk of failure."

"It is going to change dramatically": Kia says Chinese brands like MG, Haval, Chery, BYD, GAC, Leapmotor and Geely will permanently reshape Australia's new-car market, putting legacy brands like Toyota, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda at risk - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/it-is-going-to-change-dramatically-kia-says-chinese-brands-like-mg-haval-chery-byd-gac)

[NavyDiver]

Tested one and it could tow yet no idea how far😬 just found this 2000kg tow test . We aren't there yet🥱. https://youtu.be/v3s4iKZ6qgc'si=XAuhM5rwc8mukII8

[V8Ian]

More LOLs from me. The guy on a LandRover forum likes his cars to have good resale. [bigrolf]

Anyway leaving that aside - I do think while the price war is hotting up that we are going to see solid EV depreciation. Probably no worse than ice cars of similar prices - but it's going to seem bad after the pandemic boom and early EV resale prices. Lower operating costs will offset this (likely with change).

The thing is IMHO the EV price war is not just going to be about EV's. It's going to spread to ICE cars. Pretty soon people will have the choice of a second hand camry hybrid or an brand new (likely chinese) EV for similar prices. The EV won't have the range of the camry, but will beat it in all other respects. Lower costs for "fuel", less servicing etc.

I remember when Hyundai hit the Australian market. The resale of all secondhand cars dropped because you could buy a second hand car or a new Hyundai. IMHO it not going to be long until legacy manufacturers give up competing with the coming EV wave, and will try and hide in the corners of the markets that EV's aren't competitive in. Like the 4x4 ute market and large 4x4. And even then I expect some pain as EV manufacturers try to hit that market.

And it's happening even faster than I expected. I thought we would see this end of the decade but looks like it's going to be the next few years.

But I guess it's easy to ignore little old me. The thing is there are a lot of industry insiders who have seen what's happening in China and are just saying "We're f#$%ed".

From the head of Kia.

"Australia's new-car market is set to "change dramatically", with the influx of Chinese brands, putting legacy car makers at real risk of failure."

"It is going to change dramatically": Kia says Chinese brands like MG, Haval, Chery, BYD, GAC, Leapmotor and Geely will permanently reshape Australia's new-car market, putting legacy brands like Toyota, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda at risk - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/it-is-going-to-change-dramatically-kia-says-chinese-brands-like-mg-haval-chery-byd-gac)
Definitely, my BiL used to buy ten new cars at a time, every second year. All Fords, from top spec Fairlanes to pov pack utes and vans. Along came Hyundai et al, and the depreciation accelerated to the point that turnover was extended to five years.
There are far more el cheapo, Chinese options these days, either ICE or EV, that second hand prices will plummet after 2~3 years.

[prelude]

If you think an SX camry is much better in any metric I probably can't help you and you're not being objective. Mcpherson struts, 131kwh .. LOL.

Hows internet connectivity of the Camry? Can you turn the AC on via the app on a hot day? etc etc..

Also.. does the camry get a 6k rebate?

Does the camry cost 1.20 per 100k to run? I guess you enjoy going and talking to the people at the dealer every six months..

Quite entertaining. Let's try to be objective then. I would argue that the interior appointment, the fit and finish, the build quality and reliability of a toyota is, has been and possibly for the foreseeable future will be miles ahead of a tesla (model 3 and s certainly). Also even the fairly large Camry still weighs considerably less than that overweight bumper car that is the model 3, nevermind the model S that weighs more than my bloody range rover! Also, the ride quality is appalling as far as I am concerned. Admittedly, the camry's CVT is not the most refined way of driving either.

Now about power. That is the most annoying thing about EVangelists imho. We have known how to build powerful electric motors for, oh, 100 years or so? It's actually not that hard and the nature of an electric motor means torque and power over a fairly wide band from the get go. So, yes, an EV that can do 0-60 in 2 seconds... I just don't find that impressive, at all, what so ever. It's the nature of the beast but it is being used to slap petrolheads around the head with since we have used that metric for so long. I would argue that it is WAY more impressive and certainly a lot more difficult to get that kind of performance out of a complex mechanical machine like an ICE. But let's turn this the other way around. A tesla model s (not sure about the 3) tops out at 190kph. If I do that with my 25 year old honda legend (which is quieter than a model S btw in the cabin) I can do that for 2,5hrs straight on the autobahn and fill up in 5 minutes to be on my way again. (and yes I have done that from munich, I worked for BMW funny enough, back home) Let's see an EV do that...

I know, I know, this is oz and not Germany and what not, but the fact I am trying to convey here: it's hard for an EV to do that but easy for an ICE. In other words, when an EV comes around that is capable of such a feat, that WOULD be impressive.

And finally I personally do not like touch screens in my car. Again, I know in oz not a problem but try northern european winters where one drives with a big fat coat on and gloves... The UI of a tesla (or other touch screen vehicle) is worthless. And regarding the internet connectivity I can have apple carplay or android auto and that's good enough. My car does not need a simcard, I do not WANT my car to have a simcard thank you very much.

BTW
Can I start my AC with an app? yes/no. I have a viper car alarm which has been around for decades and it has a remote start function. Whenever I get ready to leave I press a button (on the very long range remote btw) and the ICE will fire up and the climate control will do it's thing, heating in winter, cooling in summer. That "feature" has been around for, oh, 30 years or so. Viper now also have a version that works with an app but I never bothered to upgrade. Maybe if this one breaks.

To conclude, I find an EV to not be the "revolution" it is made out to be, it is an evolution at most and one with as many downsides, features, and perks as that what came before it just in different points. The only reason that they MAY have some bonuses like running costs are currently artificially kept up by rebates, government sponsoring and (also a form of government sponsoring I guess) a lack of equal taxation of both the fuel and ownership of an EV (at least here in europe, but most likely also in oz).

Cheers,
-P

[101RRS]

This thread goes on and on - going around in circles endlessly covering the same things over and over.

EVs in their modern form is relatively new technology and will take time to sort themselves out. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

ICE vehicles obviously have been around for a very long time and have an advantage of having infrastructure in place and like EVs they have their strengths and weaknesses.

FFS lets stop knocking each of them endlessly and as you would buy anything else, just buy what suits you.

Garry

[RANDLOVER]

.......... Anyone who thinks EV's are "zero emission" is delusional anyway.

What we really need people to do is to stop driving everywhere. Live locally, catch PT, ride, walk. Unfortunately we've poured soo many resources into making cars irresistible that no surprise, we're not getting enough volunteers for the better choices. Yes this won't work for everyone but it's early days yet.

So EV's are better than ICE. That's what we're going for. EV's unlike ICE will continue to get lower emissions as our grid becomes more renewable. That's why the longer we delay the transition the harder it's going to be to hit targets, and the more likely hood that we will have to take measures to actively discourage ICE at some point (sorry)........

Everything has emissions, including viewing this web page, as it is basically emitting CO2 on a computer and/or at a data centre somewhere.

It seems EV's are half the emissions of a petrol according to the below article, even including the building and decommissioning. More embodied CO2 during manufacture but equalises at about 38 000k's and just gets better from there. Are electric cars better for the environment than fuel-powered cars? Here's the verdict - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-cars-and-petrol-cars/103746132)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Everything has emissions, including viewing this web page, as it is basically emitting CO2 on a computer and/or at a data centre somewhere.

It seems EV's are half the emissions of a petrol according to the below article, even including the building and decommissioning. More embodied CO2 during manufacture but equalises at about 38 000k's and just gets better from there. Are electric cars better for the environment than fuel-powered cars? Here's the verdict - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-cars-and-petrol-cars/103746132)

The only green car trip is one you don't make. If you want to reduce your carbon emissions from transport you should walk, cycle, take public transport. These options work and make a meaningful difference.

Unfortunately - it's not always possible to do this. For an endless number of reasons. These reasons generally range from necessity right through to choice or prefference.

So if you have to drive an EV is likely less bad. [bigwhistle] If they are suitable it would be helpful if more people considered them when buying another car.

Personally that's my take.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This thread goes on and on - going around in circles endlessly covering the same things over and over.

EVs in their modern form is relatively new technology and will take time to sort themselves out. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

ICE vehicles obviously have been around for a very long time and have an advantage of having infrastructure in place and like EVs they have their strengths and weaknesses.

FFS lets stop knocking each of them endlessly and as you would buy anything else, just buy what suits you.

Garry
Yes I agree - although there is a lot of people in here who won't consider for some reasons that I reckon are pretty wild. "I just reckon Camry's are better" etc.

My argument all along is that the crazy proliferation of SUV's and UTEs in Australia is insane. We don't all need to have cars capable of this stuff. Just looking at the streets around me here in inner suburban Brisbane all the families. So many people.. both cars in the family are either a 4x4 UTE or an SUV. House up the street has four ute/suv's and a little nissan. My new neighbours have a Ranger for dad and a big Jeep thing for Mum. These things are breeding. No one's garage in this suburb can fit these cars because they were all designed when cars were smaller. How did people manage? When I moved in here everyone kept their cars inside - and now they all have to live on the street. Further few if any show any signs of actually being used for their purpose.

And in this thread if I mention that probably this is a bit un-necessary it's on. "EV's are useless". Given that people are unwilling/unable to walk, cycle or catch public transport to help the climate. Do you reckon we could just get them to consider maybe one family car being an EV rather than a giant SUV? FFS?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Further on the above - people in here need to have a serious look at how they perceive cars. Every one of my cars has a purpose. That's fine. But we need to acknowledge that EV's are actually really good at some things. Towing your monster boat or caravan probably not. Driving up the beach not so. ETC. But for driving around the city, and actually as a highway car they are pretty darn good.

I drove my Defender to the mechanic on Monday. Normally I ride home from there but couldn't due to work issues. Anyway got a pickup in the EV. OMG it is so good at this type of trip. It's insanely comfortable by comparison. Quiet. Rides so nice! I just get in and it all works. I shake my head in disbelief at anyone who chooses to drive a defender around town by choice. Yes I understand that for many it might be their only car.. but man if you have another choice..

Anyway this article needs to be updated but the point holds. Yes modern cars have gotten more economical. But we've just bought bigger cars and driven them more so we're not any better off.

Myth: Cars are becoming more fuel efficient – Public Transport Users Association (https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/efficient/)

IMHO if the haters in this thread really wanted to actually hit EV's where it hurts - this is what they should be pointing out. Because EV's cost less to run - people will just drive them more which will negate the climate benefits of EV's. Will anyone in here actually notice this point?

In economics, the Jevons paradox (/ˈdʒɛvənz/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English); sometimes Jevons effect) occurs when technological progress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_change) increases the efficiency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficiency) with which a resource (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_(economics)) is used (reducing the amount necessary for any one use), but the falling cost of use induces increases in demand (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand) enough that resource use is increased, rather than reduced.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#cite_note-York-3) Governments typically assume that efficiency gains will lower resource consumption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_consumption), ignoring the possibility of the paradox arising.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox#:~:text=In%20economics%2C%20the%20J evons%20paradox,use%20is%20increased%2C%20rather%2 0than

[PhilipA]

My argument all along is that the crazy proliferation of SUV's and UTEs in Australia is insane. We don't all need to have cars capable of this stuff. Just looking at the streets around me here in inner suburban Brisbane all the families. So many people.. both cars in the family are either a 4x4 UTE or an SUV. House up the street has four ute/suv's and a little nissan. My new neighbours have a Ranger for dad and a big Jeep thing for Mum. These things are breeding. No one's garage in this suburb can fit these cars because they were all designed when cars were smaller. How did people manage? When I moved in here everyone kept their cars inside - and now they all have to live on the street. Further few if any show any signs of actually being used for their purpose.

Mate, that is what freedom of choice in a democracy is all about.
The same applies to supermarkets. Do we need umpteen brands of butter for example? No we don't but that is what freedom is about.
Do we need umpteen colours and designs for houses? No but that is freedom. we can all live in Soviet style high rises.
Would it make you happy if there were no supermarkets, no individual houses?
Sounds like Russia to me.
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Mate, that is what freedom of choice in a democracy is all about.
The same applies to supermarkets. Do we need umpteen brands of butter for example? No we don't but that is what freedom is about.
Do we need umpteen colours and designs for houses? No but that is freedom. we can all live in Soviet style high rises.
Would it make you happy if there were no supermarkets, no individual houses?
Sounds like Russia to me.
Regards PhilipA

It's not Russia. And there is a cost to society of everyone driving 4x4s around the city. Pollution, emissions, and frankly it has several other negative effects in crowded cities. Lets not forget that major cities are home to over 73% of our population.

All I'm suggesting is that when the time for another vehicle comes up, that they consider if an EV would meet their needs. Maybe just one SUV out of the household?

If nothing else, because you'll save a motza by comparison? I had to go out on Sunday and did 200k. The cost of that in fuel in the defender is around $48 (12l/100). If I did it one of those lusted after camry hybrids at 4l/100 - that's still $16. The energy cost to me was $2.40? Is that not enough to warrant consideration? Are you that committed to always driving an SUV?

[Homestar]

This thread goes on and on - going around in circles endlessly covering the same things over and over.

EVs in their modern form is relatively new technology and will take time to sort themselves out. They have their strengths and weaknesses.

ICE vehicles obviously have been around for a very long time and have an advantage of having infrastructure in place and like EVs they have their strengths and weaknesses.

FFS lets stop knocking each of them endlessly and as you would buy anything else, just buy what suits you.

Garry

But what we’re doing is so much more fun. [emoji16]

[Homestar]

It's not Russia. And there is a cost to society of everyone driving 4x4s around the city. Pollution, emissions, and frankly it has several other negative effects in crowded cities. Lets not forget that major cities are home to over 73% of our population.

All I'm suggesting is that when the time for another vehicle comes up, that they consider if an EV would meet their needs. Maybe just one SUV out of the household?

If nothing else, because you'll save a motza by comparison? I had to go out on Sunday and did 200k. The cost of that in fuel in the defender is around $48 (12l/100). If I did it one of those lusted after camry hybrids at 4l/100 - that's still $16. The energy cost to me was $2.40? Is that not enough to warrant consideration? Are you that committed to always driving an SUV?

If it’s all about the cost then the jury is still out IMO. If you consider end to end costs including purchase price, fuel, servicing & repairs, insurance and depreciation then that’s a lot to look at. Not saying you’re wrong - I might run some quick numbers but it’s not as cut and dried as running costs.

[Saitch]

just buy what suits you.

Garry

I think that is what Cap'n Rightfoot is alluding to.

A lot of people own 4x4 wagons and twin cabs, which don't appear to suit them. I have a rellie who has a large, twin cab 'tilly and who has no practical reason on earth to own one.
I was so bold as to suggest that, 'It's all about "The Look", not about functionallity' and they replied in the affirmative. [tonguewink]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

If it’s all about the cost then the jury is still out IMO. If you consider end to end costs including purchase price, fuel, servicing & repairs, insurance and depreciation then that’s a lot to look at. Not saying you’re wrong - I might run some quick numbers but it’s not as cut and dried as running costs.

Frankly I agree with you. For me at least - we probably don't drive enough to justify an additional car. The problem is my family refuse to drive the defender around and frankly I'd rather buy another car then let people drive my precious. [bigwhistle]

We are fortunate to be able to access the EV salary sacrifice deal (I know that's not an option for everyone) and that was what encouraged me to buy an EV. At the time we bought our car which is only just a year yesterday prices were higher and there was less choice. None the less I worked out that it was cheaper for us to buy the Tesla than another Golf. With the EV price war I expect this would be even more favourable now. However the best option would have been for us to continue to use the golf, but alas it had design issues that were crazy expensive and were baked it. I'm bitter about that.

As to the operating cost the EV is clearly much cheaper than the Golf. Most people that own Teslas don't do any servicing other than cabin filter, wiper and tyre changes so that's a big saving right there. Now we are on the 8c electricity deal the "fuel" is clearly much cheaper.

In summary overall I believe it's cheaper for our family to operate an EV but as I've said we probably don't drive enough. We did 14,414 K's in the first year, which was more than we expected but we've strongly taken k's off the Defender.

On the forums I have seen many people who do more like 50k per year. These people are saving huge amounts.

My niece is a young doctor and drives 33k a year for work. We calculated the cost in her ice car (a honda hatch) and an EV would be a massive saving to her.

EDIT: There is an uber driver I'm aware of who is up to 280k in a little over 2 years. So far no actual repairs, and only cabin filters, wipers and tyres. Original brake pads!
EDIT2: Despite only having about 400k real world range there has been only one occasion where we have needed to charge outside the house. And then it was a free charger at a motel. So all charging has been at home.

[Homestar]

So just doing some back of the envelope calculations here.
Based on 2019 model vehicles. 14,000KM per year (average Aussie KM travelled)

2019 Hybrid Camry SX (Mid spec)
Purchase price – $42,800
Fuel over 5 years. Real world average for this car is 5.2 litres per hundred. Yota claim 4.8 (average price of petrol at $1.71 per litre since 2019) - This would be $6,224.40
Servicing – 4 services required – 15,000KM service intervals - $820.00 Toyota capped price servicing for the first 6 years or 60KKM is $205 per service
Repairs – nil – 5 year warranty and it’s a Toyota.
Tyres – Nil – 90KKM to 100KKM is easily doable on the OEM rubber
Insurance - $6,500. Based on $1,300 PA – I’ve found cheaper but this will do for the calcs.
Total Costs - $56,344.40
Selling today with 70 to 100KKM for between 28 and 32K so lets say $30,000.
Out of pocket $26,344.40 or around $5,270 per year over 5 years.

2019 Tesla Model 3
They look like they were between $70K and $93K when new so lets split the difference - $81,500
Fuel – just working on a grid price of $0.30 per KWH here and some of my numbers will be wobbly for sure so feel free to correct these. Lets say 550KM from a charge so 127 charges over 5 years. 100KWH per charge so 12,700KWH - $3,810
Servicing – Zero? Not sure, happy to call it that.
Repairs - Nil
Tyres – 1 set @ $800?
Insurance - $2,500 - cheapest I could find was $2,650 but I've rounded down - so for 5 years - $12,500
Total Costs - $98,610
Selling today for between $35 and $55K – lets say $45K
Out of pocket $51,610 or around $10K per year.

If you used current Model 3 price of say $72K then out of pocket would still be $40K over the life of the vehicle and if you charged it every time for free – not including the you’ve spend $30K on solar and batteries at home then it still doesn’t work if you’re pedaling the cheaper to run line. The purchase price would need to match a current Hybrid offering to make overall costs a real argument.

[prelude]

"buy whatever suits you" - yes :) this. Also, like homestar said we are having too much fun :)

The one thing we absolutely agree on captain_rightfoot: the greenest choice is drive less and I have been doing that for years. Small anecdote; I used to sit in traffic angry at all the trucks on the road and I thought to myself: what if they made it illegal for those things to be on the road during the morning and evening rush hours, that way I could possibly get to the office and back without standing still hours on end. Of course, rationale kicked in a bit later when I had let go of my annoyance :) and I decided, those guys are on the road FOR THEIR JOB. I am the one who does not need to be there! So i decided from that moment on that whenever and wherever possible I would work from home.

I also liked the argument I just saw: that is what freedom means, buy what you like. That for me is the biggest argument of the bunch. EV's have their purpose. If I would still live like I did with my ex some years ago she would have a honda-e by now since it has enough range to do what she needs to do and I like that little civic lookalike. But me, myself, I am a petrolhead and i will be driving ICE far beyond their best-by-date simply because it is a hobby of mine.

It is a choice indeed. I have had electric heating (in the house) for 20 odd years and electric hot water for at least 10. Those were choices to be "green" (because I bought so called green energy but it wan't of course but I did my bit) but I bought a 4.6L V8 because I want one. [bighmmm]

As for buying something for the looks, I have plenty of self employed mates around here (in IT) that drive a tesla and virtually all of them profess that they bought them for the wallet, not for the environment because till very recently you practically got them for free with all the goverment grants... Funny how that goes.

Ah well,
Nuff talk, let's see if I can get some work done today
-P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So just doing some back of the envelope calculations here.
Based on 2019 model vehicles. 14,000KM per year (average Aussie KM travelled)

2019 Hybrid Camry SX (Mid spec)
SNIP

2019 Tesla Model 3
They look like they were between $70K and $93K when new so lets split the difference - $81,500
Fuel – just working on a grid price of $0.30 per KWH here and some of my numbers will be wobbly for sure so feel free to correct these. Lets say 550KM from a charge so 127 charges over 5 years. 100KWH per charge so 12,700KWH - $3,810
Servicing – Zero? Not sure, happy to call it that.
Repairs - Nil
Tyres – 1 set @ $800?
Insurance - $2,500 - cheapest I could find was $2,650 but I've rounded down - so for 5 years - $12,500
Total Costs - $98,610
Selling today for between $35 and $55K – lets say $45K
Out of pocket $51,610 or around $10K per year.

If you used current Model 3 price of say $72K then out of pocket would still be $40K over the life of the vehicle and if you charged it every time for free – not including the you’ve spend $30K on solar and batteries at home then it still doesn’t work if you’re pedaling the cheaper to run line. The purchase price would need to match a current Hybrid offering to make overall costs a real argument.

Hold up there! Plug this into your spreadsheet.

Purchase Price
the new price of a model 3 drive away is 58k!
next is the charging. A model 3 battery is 55kwh not 100kwh! They say it does 513k but you'd be better to work on about 450 full to empty. If you want more range you need to add 10k onto the price and that will add an extra 11k to the range and make awd and a 4sec 0-100 car!

Home charging.
As to the charging - if you can charge at home there are several deals now offering free, 5c or 8c. For me one years power is $224. A M3 should be less. If you do a lot of charging outside the home it would be more, but I can't guess that.

Insurance.
Again wildly variable. I just renewed with Shannons and it was just under $1500. Which is only $200 more than our Golf.

Selling cost. Hard to say. I would think after 5 years you'd be looking at around $25, but can't say for sure.

What has made EV's unbeatable for me has been salary sacrificing. Moving all these costs to pre tax. That's not available for ICE and hybrid without FBT.

EDIT: Hang on ... you're doing a past calculation. That's a whacky way of doing it. Wouldn't you be better to work out what would happen if you bought now? That's really unfair on the EV as prices have dropped and it doesn't reflect current reality.

[Homestar]

Hold up there! Plug this into your spreadsheet.

Purchase Price
the new price of a model 3 drive away is 58k!
next is the charging. A model 3 battery is 55kwh not 100kwh! They say it does 513k but you'd be better to work on about 450 full to empty. If you want more range you need to add 10k onto the price and that will add an extra 11k to the range and make awd and a 4sec 0-100 car!

Home charging.
As to the charging - if you can charge at home there are several deals now offering free, 5c or 8c. For me one years power is $224. A M3 should be less. If you do a lot of charging outside the home it would be more, but I can't guess that.

Insurance.
Again wildly variable. I just renewed with Shannons and it was just under $1500. Which is only $200 more than our Golf.

Selling cost. Hard to say. I would think after 5 years you'd be looking at around $25, but can't say for sure.

What has made EV's unbeatable for me has been salary sacrificing. Moving all these costs to pre tax. That's not available for ICE and hybrid without FBT.

EDIT: Hang on ... you're doing a past calculation. That's a whacky way of doing it. Wouldn't you be better to work out what would happen if you bought now? That's really unfair on the EV as prices have dropped and it doesn't reflect current reality.

2019 price was NOT $58K and I’m struggling to keep up with the discounts announced almost weekly by Tesla now. It’s still doesn’t add up using your figures from what I can work out.

And no - doing a calc using data we know NOW is not wacky at all. You could FORECAST something into the future if you want - knock yourself out. I’m dealing with known facts that have happened not speculation which it seems EV zealots are the best as because the FACTS don’t look good.

And if your power bills are $200 a year I’m sure you have solar and probably a battery - you need to take that cost into your calculations as well. You should say ‘my power costs $200 a year NOW - after I spent thousands on solar etc’ [emoji6]

I spent 15 minutes looking all this up on Google so feel free to run your own numbers and post them - as I said in my post I’m happy to be corrected on the figures for the EV as I don’t own one and am going on whatever I can find quickly.

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel… 🤣

[DiscoDB]

In 2019, I don’t think the market demographic for the Tesla 3 would even have considered a Camry. They would have been making comparisons with luxury sports cars like the BMW 3 series.

Likewise, budget conscious Camry buyers would not have been considering a Tesla. In 2020 they may have considered the MG ZS EV if looking to go full electric.

It is only now as battery prices are coming down and we are seeing more competition from China would Toyota Camry buyers now be considering options like the BYD Seal or Toyota bZ4X. But like BMW buyers, Tesla buyers still wouldn’t consider a Camry as an alternative. Even my 2008 BMW 320d drives better than a new Camry, is more enjoyable to own, and is much better value for money. By comparison the Camry is a soulless car.

So if wanting to do retrospective cost of ownership comparisons, you should be comparing a 2019 Tesla 3 with a BMW 3 series, or a 2020 Hybrid Camry with a MG ZS EV.

But unless you are buying a fleet for a company do people seriously make new car buying decisions based on the total cost of ownership. If total cost of ownership is the true driver then you would buy a low km second hand car and avoid the big depreciation hit new cars have (this is not financial advice!).

[RANDLOVER]

.............But unless you are buying a fleet for a company do people seriously make new car buying decisions based on the total cost of ownership. If total cost of ownership is the true driver then you would buy a low km second hand car and avoid the big depreciation hit new cars have (this is not financial advice!).

Especially a LR owner, I went from having large petrol station wagons where I had to scrounge around and find every little petrol, rego, insurance, maintenance, tyre receipt I could to claim my Salary Sacrifice, then I bought a D2 TD 5, and didn't even have to bother with fuel receipts to hit my cap, then I bought a D3 which far and away exceeds the whole Salary Sacrifice amount!:eek2:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

2019 price was NOT $58K and I’m struggling to keep up with the discounts announced almost weekly by Tesla now. It’s still doesn’t add up using your figures from what I can work out.

And no - doing a calc using data we know NOW is not wacky at all. You could FORECAST something into the future if you want - knock yourself out. I’m dealing with known facts that have happened not speculation which it seems EV zealots are the best as because the FACTS don’t look good.

And if your power bills are $200 a year I’m sure you have solar and probably a battery - you need to take that cost into your calculations as well. You should say ‘my power costs $200 a year NOW - after I spent thousands on solar etc’ [emoji6]

I spent 15 minutes looking all this up on Google so feel free to run your own numbers and post them - as I said in my post I’m happy to be corrected on the figures for the EV as I don’t own one and am going on whatever I can find quickly.

It’s like shooting fish in a barrel… 🤣
My car used 2800 kwh in it's fist year including charging losses. Yes I paid somewhat more than the deal I'm on now for some of it. Yes I have solar but no battery.

However, going forward. As I said - most providers have deals on electricity for EV's now.

I am on this plan. It's 8 c per kwh.

EV Power Up - Electric Vehicle Charging - Origin Energy (https://www.originenergy.com.au/origin-loop/electric-vehicle-charging/ev-power-up/)

2800 * .08c = $224. That is how much it costs me to run my car. Actual figures. A M3 will be less. Sorry. What's that? A single tank of diesel for my defender?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

In 2019, I don’t think the market demographic for the Tesla 3 would even have considered a Camry. They would have been making comparisons with luxury sports cars like the BMW 3 series.

Likewise, budget conscious Camry buyers would not have been considering a Tesla. In 2020 they may have considered the MG ZS EV if looking to go full electric.

It is only now as battery prices are coming down and we are seeing more competition from China would Toyota Camry buyers now be considering options like the BYD Seal or Toyota bZ4X. But like BMW buyers, Tesla buyers still wouldn’t consider a Camry as an alternative. Even my 2008 BMW 320d drives better than a new Camry, is more enjoyable to own, and is much better value for money. By comparison the Camry is a soulless car.

So if wanting to do retrospective cost of ownership comparisons, you should be comparing a 2019 Tesla 3 with a BMW 3 series, or a 2020 Hybrid Camry with a MG ZS EV.

But unless you are buying a fleet for a company do people seriously make new car buying decisions based on the total cost of ownership. If total cost of ownership is the true driver then you would buy a low km second hand car and avoid the big depreciation hit new cars have (this is not financial advice!).

We seem to be in some weird loop where we're trying to calculate whether we would have been better off being an EV early adopter a few years ago. Which personally I don't see much value in. Personally I looked at it at it as far back as 2016. I came to the conclusion I was better off to put solar on than deal with EV's of the time.

And no.. I don't think many people would consider a Camry to be a model 3 alternative. But there you go.

[PhilipA]

Of course "Early Adopters" thought that they were saving the World with their Teslas and others.

Now reality has set in and Tesla has 46000 on grass in the USA . This is typical of the "Early Adopter" curve which affected new car releases even 50 years ago.

I was amused to see that in the USA the dept of Environment has installed 7 charging stations since being given $7 BILLION 2 years ago. They plan 500,000 in another 2 years ROFL.

It still amuses me that you seem to think that the cost of your electricity is a major factor in your ownership decision when all the evidence coming forward indicates that coal and gas will be major sources of power at night for the foreseeable future and there is now irrefutable evidence of child labour featuring large in the mining of minerals , and also that coal power is used to make the batteries. In addition you are relying on the fiat of government for your benefits ie not taxing your KW and providing no taxation for highway upkeep.
How does this compute with saving the World or being a good citizen?
Talk about "Reverse Robin Hood" taxing the poor to provide welfare for the rich.
Regards PhilipA

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'm working on my old car. Water in oil so engine out and while i'm going a gearbox rebuild.

Anyone who thinks EV's are complex really needs to have a think about how amazingly improbable ICE drivetrains are. It's literally insane and illogical all rolled up. Burn air and push on stuff to convert to rotational energy. All while not catching fire, melting, and while keeping the oil, the fuel, and the water apart while being processed in the one device. It's easy to forget that it's taken more than 100 years of manufacturing refinement to get to where we are now. I am convinced that ICE cars will become like old aircraft. We could never build a concorde again now because we have simply lost the ability to do it.

Yes EV's have considerable electronic complexity but mechanically they are much simpler. At the same time they have taken such a big technological jump. The interface and use experience has moved on. It's comical watching my Daughter who has now done the majority of her driving on an EV struggle with an ICE car. I watch her drive off without the lights on, or walk up to it and try to get into a locked car. Manage a handbrake start on a hill. All comical.

I remain convinced that in 20 years time we're going to look back and laugh at all this. Look at that old ice car. How quaint.

[PhilipA]

Funny thing is that many/most seem to hate the "modern" conveniences like lane keeping, accident warning, stop start, etc.
Over time it will become more evident what is good and what is dross.
I understand VW is now reducing things included in menus on screens and reverting to buttons as that is what the customers want.
YOU may like your do dads but do the majority of the population may not.
BTW, all the things you mention are not things that are exclusive to EVs but can be incorporated into ICE vehicles which are now just as computer centric as EVs.

I was puzzled a while ago that the AC in my 2018 Everest would not go onto highish fan. It turns out that it was because the drivers door was ajar and even when closed did not rectify until the next start. This is the type of glitch that happens when everything is controlled by a computer.

Also wait until your screen craps itself. You will not be able to do anything at all in the car. This has happened often in fact I understand to most pre 2018 Teslas.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

And no.. I don't think many people would consider a Camry to be a model 3 alternative. But there you go.

Um, it was you that compared them in the first place….

[101RRS]

I don't think many people would consider a Camry to be a model 3 alternative.

Why would anyone consider a Camry as an alternative to a Tesla or indeed any full time EV - Camry is an ICE vehicle that uses an electric motor to get going - that is the only EV thing about it - Camry and full EV are completely different vehicles.

[RANDLOVER]

............And no.. I don't think many people would consider a Camry to be a model 3 alternative. But there you go.


Um, it was you that compared them in the first place….


Why would anyone consider a Camry as an alternative to a Tesla or indeed any full time EV - Camry is an ICE vehicle that uses an electric motor to get going - that is the only EV thing about it - Camry and full EV are completely different vehicles.

I think the only Toyota product that could fairly compared to a Tesla would have to be a Lexus.

[RANDLOVER]

........

Yes EV's have considerable electronic complexity but mechanically they are much simpler. At the same time they have taken such a big technological jump. The interface and use experience has moved on. It's comical watching my Daughter who has now done the majority of her driving on an EV struggle with an ICE car. I watch her drive off without the lights on, or walk up to it and try to get into a locked car. Manage a handbrake start on a hill. All comical.

I remain convinced that in 20 years time we're going to look back and laugh at all this. Look at that old ice car. How quaint.

I'm not so sure as ICE cars have character, it's like how jet planes are supposed to be better, faster, louder than the old ones, but in films I love the sound of the old piston engine planes, the jets leave me cold. Some of the first cars where electric and Henry Ford's wife had one, so the ladies loved them as much cleaner, quieter, etc but gents loved the complexities of the petrol cars. 1914 Detroit Electric Model 47 Brougham, Personal Car of Clara Ford - The Henry Ford (https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections/artifact/209957/)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Um, it was you that compared them in the first place….


That's because you started saying "I'd much rather have a camry hybrid"!! LOL

[Tins]

Of course "Early Adopters" thought that they were saving the World with their Teslas and others.

Now reality has set in and Tesla has 46000 on grass in the USA . This is typical of the "Early Adopter" curve which affected new car releases even 50 years ago.

I was amused to see that in the USA the dept of Environment has installed 7 charging stations since being given $7 BILLION 2 years ago. They plan 500,000 in another 2 years ROFL.

It still amuses me that you seem to think that the cost of your electricity is a major factor in your ownership decision when all the evidence coming forward indicates that coal and gas will be major sources of power at night for the foreseeable future and there is now irrefutable evidence of child labour featuring large in the mining of minerals , and also that coal power is used to make the batteries. In addition you are relying on the fiat of government for your benefits ie not taxing your KW and providing no taxation for highway upkeep.
How does this compute with saving the World or being a good citizen?
Talk about "Reverse Robin Hood" taxing the poor to provide welfare for the rich.
Regards PhilipA

I was going to point out the "sponging on the poorer taxpayer" argument, but you did it far more eloquently ( and politely ) than I was going to... [bigwhistle]

[ramblingboy42]

I was about 30 posts back when I got sick of the thread.

...but saw mounting use of "legacy" to describe some vehicles?

what is a legacy vehicle?

who started using the word and why do others use it.?

There was/is a Honda Legacy.

A legacy is something shared or passed down or onward in a. "family"

Legacy is an Australian highly accredited organisation that cares for families of deceased or injured soldiers.

Please tell me how it relates to a vehicles status.

[101RRS]

I was about 30 posts back when I got sick of the thread.

...but saw mounting use of "legacy" to describe some vehicles?

what is a legacy vehicle?

who started using the word and why do others use it.?

There was/is a Honda Legacy.

A legacy is something shared or passed down or onward in a. "family"

Legacy is an Australian highly accredited organisation that cares for families of deceased or injured soldiers.

Please tell me how it relates to a vehicles status.

The Subaru Legacy had to be renamed for the Australian market as the Liberty - so there is a link [bigwhistle]

[ramblingboy42]

Maybe its the Subaru Legacy I see occasionally , not a Honda?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Funny thing is that many/most seem to hate the "modern" conveniences like lane keeping, accident warning, stop start, etc.
Over time it will become more evident what is good and what is dross.
I understand VW is now reducing things included in menus on screens and reverting to buttons as that is what the customers want.
YOU may like your do dads but do the majority of the population may not.
BTW, all the things you mention are not things that are exclusive to EVs but can be incorporated into ICE vehicles which are now just as computer centric as EVs.

I was puzzled a while ago that the AC in my 2018 Everest would not go onto highish fan. It turns out that it was because the drivers door was ajar and even when closed did not rectify until the next start. This is the type of glitch that happens when everything is controlled by a computer.

Also wait until your screen craps itself. You will not be able to do anything at all in the car. This has happened often in fact I understand to most pre 2018 Teslas.
Regards PhilipA
VW got in big trouble because what they did was rubbish. Their interface was abysmal and the whole thing barely worked, making it very hard to operate their cars.

The problem is that EV's and modern cars in general are many times to complex to be managed with buttons. As you've pointed out so are many ice cars too.

I sat in a BYD and thought holy batman look at the buttons. Buttons everywhere. I said to a make who has one "How do you work out how to operate everything?". He replied that it was even in ownership hard to know whether settings were in menus, or that there was an actual button for them. So mostly it was easier to ask the voice assistant.

Tesla have a very very swish user interface that is intuitive and polished. It makes it easy to do what you need to do. What's more they have put a lot of effort into minimising driver distraction. I was pretty surprised with it recently. I had a nail in the tyre and a slow leak. I happened to notice a tyre symbol at the lights and clicked it. "The tyre is only slightly low so this message has been suppressed while driving". This is exactly what airbus do in critical phases of flight with their warning system. Very clever and I didn't expect to see that in a car.

A day in the life of that car is you get in and just drive it. It remembers everything about your last trip and just sets it (according to driver profile). The only thing I would actually touch the screen for typically is music and navigation - which can also be done with voice. This is exactly what happens with any car that uses Carplay.

Initially there may be a learning curve for a little while.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I was going to point out the "sponging on the poorer taxpayer" argument, but you did it far more eloquently ( and politely ) than I was going to... [bigwhistle]

Well.. the ICE car has like over 100 years of development and inertia. Do we just say "screw it - it's just too hard"?

We know that EV's (even charged from coal) still have lower emissions than ICE. There are and have been very big subsidies for ICE cars in the past. It's almost certainly going to be cheaper to do what they are doing now than to deal with the alternatives.

Since the number of people who are prepared to "drive less" seem pretty thin on the ground we need to accept that EV's are "Less Bad" than the alternative.

Are electric cars better for the environment than fuel-powered cars? Here'''s the verdict - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-27/comparing-electric-cars-and-petrol-cars/103746132)

"Overall, every electric car will produce fewer emissions than its petrol equivalent, no matter where they are charged.Even with an electricity grid that still uses some fossil fuels, electric cars have much lower overall carbon emissions, and that will continue to drop as the electricity gets greener."

[Tombie]

Biggest EV depreciation will come with the end of government rebates.

At the moment the Federal government is handing out incentives left right and centre to coax people into an EV.

When the rebates end, on EVs and renewables- the cost of living is going to skyrocket.

No government official has answered the big question - once fuel excise drops significantly - what are they going to tax then?

Like my solar panels - early adopters reaped the benefits with huge FITs. No longer the case.

Early EV adopters are getting cheap to run vehicles. At current electricity prices and no excise. “Watch this space”. We’re all going to pay down the track!

[Tombie]

I'm working on my old car. Water in oil so engine out and while i'm going a gearbox rebuild.

Anyone who thinks EV's are complex really needs to have a think about how amazingly improbable ICE drivetrains are. It's literally insane and illogical all rolled up. Burn air and push on stuff to convert to rotational energy. All while not catching fire, melting, and while keeping the oil, the fuel, and the water apart while being processed in the one device. It's easy to forget that it's taken more than 100 years of manufacturing refinement to get to where we are now. I am convinced that ICE cars will become like old aircraft. We could never build a concorde again now because we have simply lost the ability to do it.

Yes EV's have considerable electronic complexity but mechanically they are much simpler. At the same time they have taken such a big technological jump. The interface and use experience has moved on. It's comical watching my Daughter who has now done the majority of her driving on an EV struggle with an ICE car. I watch her drive off without the lights on, or walk up to it and try to get into a locked car. Manage a handbrake start on a hill. All comical.

I remain convinced that in 20 years time we're going to look back and laugh at all this. Look at that old ice car. How quaint.

There is actually a new Supersonic passenger jet in design testing now.

The reason it was so limited was to do with laws about supersonic flights over US soil by commercial airlines.

The new prototype uses tech to quieten the boom and will allow for its use domestically.



As for interface etc, there is morning evidence large screens are a huge factor in vehicle incidents / driver distraction.

And let’s talk vehicle lighting (Segway) - modern lighting is constantly being criticised for being less effective and/or causing more dazzling of other motorists. The trend is causing more issues than it’s solving.


Remember that tech isn’t always the solution - paperless offices don’t exist - pencils and paper still rule.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

There is actually a new Supersonic passenger jet in design testing now.

The reason it was so limited was to do with laws about supersonic flights over US soil by commercial airlines.

The new prototype uses tech to quieten the boom and will allow for its use domestically.



As for interface etc, there is morning evidence large screens are a huge factor in vehicle incidents / driver distraction.

And let’s talk vehicle lighting (Segway) - modern lighting is constantly being criticised for being less effective and/or causing more dazzling of other motorists. The trend is causing more issues than it’s solving.


Remember that tech isn’t always the solution - paperless offices don’t exist - pencils and paper still rule.
The point I was making with concorde was they can never build another concorde. All the design, all the tools, all the people who knew are gone. That was not to say they can't make another supersonic aircraft - but they've had to start again.

Re driver distraction - it's always been a problem. I know a number of people who had crashes back in the day while adjusting radios. Personally I'm more worried about phones than car systems because at least the car systems are regulated. In the tesla at least all the "fun" stuff is inhibited unless the car is in Park.

Re headlights - I do agree. Some of the new ones are pretty dazzling. Lucky they are on it. :D Tesla and maybe other manufacturers have active headlights now. They dim the beam for people and things. But not the whole headlight - but just the bit with the car. They rolled it out last software update. Very impressive. I wish I could get that for the defender. No more driving along in the dark wondering if a roo is going to jump out because someone in the distance is approaching.


https://youtu.be/Z3bL0Xu2om0'si=O59LjKZNwEw1NLq5

PS My office is all but paperless. I had to print out some course notes (because I was asked to) the other day and it was a palava. No one knew how to do it. Didn't use them anyway. :D

[Homestar]

I think the only Toyota product that could fairly compared to a Tesla would have to be a Lexus.

Why? Fit and finish on a Tesla is not great - not awful either but not close to Lexus levels. Ride and comfort are on a par with my Dmax as well. The base model yota is far more comfortable. Noise level would be the only thing comparable IMO.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Why? Fit and finish on a Tesla is not great - not awful either but not close to Lexus levels. Ride and comfort are on a par with my Dmax as well. The base model yota is far more comfortable. Noise level would be the only thing comparable IMO.

In the irony of things since switching to Chinese production the quality has increased markedly. I don't know how you're coming to the verdict on "quality". Build quality? Reliability? My car has been one of the best cars I've ever bought and I've had a few. I follow a lot of Tesla groups, and I don't see complaints about quality.

The first batch of Model Y's had a suspension tune that wasn't great. It was very firm. From the start of 2023 they had a softer tune. It's still firm but not as firm. The refresh of the M3 they seem to have gotten someone in who knows what they are doing, because it's actually seen praise for being well sorted. It is widely anticipated that the MY will get similar revisions. So if you are interested in giving accurate advice, you should be aware of these things.

People who appreciate handling will definitely prefer the Tesla setup to the Camry setup. I would describe mine as "sporty". It turns in well and feels like well planted RWD. It will eventually understeer, but for the whole it handles much much better than it looks like it would.

Those whacky europeans described the camry handling as "comfortable but slow". Meanwhile the Tesla aced the test and got some of the highest speeds in class while not flipping. So I guess it probably depends on what you define as "comfortable" and what roads you have around your area.

If you want a car that is soft .. if that's what you call comfortable.. the Hyundai Ioniq5 is definitely "soft and comfortable". Not so great at corners, but perhaps that's not your thing.

Toyota Camry Hybrid Is Comfortable But Slow On The Moose Test (https://www.motor1.com/news/619353/toyota-camry-hybrid-moose-test/)

"So, when the same test for a Model Y (https://uk.motor1.com/tesla/model-y/) was posted by km77.com on YouTube, we expected the crossover EV to pass it – and it did so with flying colours.
As seen on the video embedded atop this page, the Model Y, despite its slightly higher ground clearance, cleared the cones at 83 kilometres per hour (52 miles per hour). That matches the previous record done by the Model 3 at the hands of the same testers.
According to the folks at km77, the Model Y's good steering feel, plus its nice ESC and suspension setups, make the biggest Tesla easy to handle under challenging situations."


Tesla Model Y aces dreaded moose test and we're not surprised (https://uk.motor1.com/news/533229/tesla-model-y-moose-test/)

EDIT: Full disclosure. The only fault with my car was a speaker grill. But it wasn't actually faulty. Tesla sent me a message in the app saying "some had been faulty" and turned up at my house and replaced it anyway even though it looked perfect to me. I'm really struggling to mark them down for that.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

"Tesla Model Y is one of the very best cars we've performed this test with". It's worth a watch. For a high riding "suv" you can fling it around alaramingly and it just eats it.


https://youtu.be/gczso5OoM88'si=H0Jom2bsnECN6ULF

[Captain_Rightfoot]

And in happy Friday news. We were the first EV in our street 12 months ago. There are now three. Another MY and a BYD Atto [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So in Brisbane we have a rideshare driver who bought a M3 in 2021. Since then he's done 285,000k in it. If I had to drive that much you could take me out the back.. but that's another story.

In that time the costs he's incurred.

- 6x sets of tyres.
- Tyre rotations $45 every 10-15k
- 1 windscreen (Insurance)
- a lead acid battery $165
- 2x washer fluid $24 total
- 5x Cabin filters $175 total
- 3x Wiper blades $135 total
- Total charge cost $8,910 total (he often has to fast charge)

*Brake pads are still original at 85%
*Battery health when new was estimated at 424k range. Currently 396k.

I reckon it's going ok for him.

[Tins]

190284

[Homestar]

Re driver distraction. We’re currently in Brissy for the weekend and have an MG as a hire car. Like the Haval, you have to use the touchscreen to change the temp or fan speed etc - it’s bloody dangerous as it takes your eyes off the road for quite some time - even once you know where to navigate to it takes time. I can reach the fan switches and heater controls on my Dmax without looking away from the road. Not sure why using the touch screen for all these functions is even legal.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Re driver distraction. We’re currently in Brissy for the weekend and have an MG as a hire car. Like the Haval, you have to use the touchscreen to change the temp or fan speed etc - it’s bloody dangerous as it takes your eyes off the road for quite some time - even once you know where to navigate to it takes time. I can reach the fan switches and heater controls on my Dmax without looking away from the road. Not sure why using the touch screen for all these functions is even legal.

Does it have an auto setting? The cars I've had with climate control I find I rarely if ever actually have to touch stuff like that. Just because one user interface is crap doesn't mean they all are.

Despite the defender having horrible ergonomics I can adjust pretty much all the controls in my defender without having to look away from the road due to length of ownership. The heater/blower, the vents, and the ac/fan.

BUT. On a long road trip I find having to constantly change all this stuff to keep everyone comfortable is really tiring. It's a lot of additional driver workload that simply isn't there in cars with good climate.

This is why VW got panned. Because the climate didn't work well, and the capacitive buttons didn't work well and I don't think they were backlit. So really hard to operate. Hopeless.

As I say over and over again - at least with the Tesla UI you rarely actually have to touch the screen while driving. And if you do look away at least the car is still watching.

[Tins]

. Not sure why using the touch screen for all these functions is even legal.

X100. If you so much as touch your phone you are a leper. Cars these days, EVs especially, are like sitting in an IMAX. For many, many years Mercedes Benz put all the controls in the same place, whether you drove an A Class or S Class. All the functions became automatic, "muscle memory" if you like. They claimed it was the safest practice. And in those days MB made by far the safest cars.

All these menus, hidden away in all the glitz, and no two cars are the same, is madness, and it's pathetic how it all impresses people who should know better. The place for giant screens is in the living room.

[PhilipA]

You know one of the problems with being a proselytizer is that the natives/savages rarely take any notice after the first flush of enlightenment.
They sometimes used to find themselves to be a delightful dinner.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Ahh, but missionaries had the power of righteousness behind them. Right?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

X100. If you so much as touch your phone you are a leper. Cars these days, EVs especially, are like sitting in an IMAX. For many, many years Mercedes Benz put all the controls in the same place, whether you drove an A Class or S Class. All the functions became automatic, "muscle memory" if you like. They claimed it was the safest practice. And in those days MB made by far the safest cars.

All these menus, hidden away in all the glitz, and no two cars are the same, is madness, and it's pathetic how it all impresses people who should know better. The place for giant screens is in the living room.

Lol.. you're absolutely right. Complex devices could never be used safely with just screens and smart software. I must have lost my mind. Buttons and dials is where it's at. Maybe an extra person to help monitor everything.

Or you could just automate all the functions on the car, and then just use the display for critical information. Tesla even prioritises information just like Airbus.

Perhaps have a read about how the Airbus systems prioritised the status messages of failing systems in a manner that enabled the pilots to deal with it in qf32. Also even Sully on the hudson - again the airbus systems prioritised messages enabling the pilot to fly.


https://forums.flightsimulator.com/uploads/default/original/4X/d/f/0/df05d67c77dfe21eb41e20fc08cea27c930a8271.jpeg

https://wallpapercave.com/wp/wp4596687.jpg

Qantas Flight 32 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32)

[PhilipA]

That is not how I understand it at all!
The account I read is that the computer systems were completely overwhelmed and gave AFAIR 54 cascading faults many of which were false.
What saved the plane was the decision of the captain and crew to try something that had never been attempted before by doing a dummy approach which could have failed and caused a crash if it went wrong. They landed at far above the speed the 380 was designed to land at despite the numerous warnings from the malfunctioning computers.
What was very lucky was that there was a check captain on board who enable the prioritizing of tasks in the absence of sensible data from the computers.
Captain de Crespigny was amazed to look out his window and see the inboard engine at full power after stopping. He had no idea from the computers.

What about the incident off WA when the computers just went dead and the aircraft dropped thousands of feet.
Also an Air France Airbus crashed in the middle of the Atlantic because the crew were not told by the computers that there was a massive fuel leak in the wing.

Regards PhilipA

[Old Farang]

That is not how I understand it at all!
The account I read is that the computer systems were completely overwhelmed and gave AFAIR 54 cascading faults many of which were false.
What saved the plane was the decision of the captain and crew to try something that had never been attempted before by doing a dummy approach which could have failed and caused a crash if it went wrong. They landed at far above the speed the 380 was designed to land at despite the numerous warnings from the malfunctioning computers.
What was very lucky was that there was a check captain on board who enable the prioritizing of tasks in the absence of sensible data from the computers.
Captain de Crespigny was amazed to look out his window and see the inboard engine at full power after stopping. He had no idea from the computers.

What about the incident off WA when the computers just went dead and the aircraft dropped thousands of feet.
Also an Air France Airbus crashed in the middle of the Atlantic because the crew were not told by the computers that there was a massive fuel leak in the wing.

Regards PhilipA

Arh, you may want to read it again; Wiki has a good description of what transpired. There was no "dummy run", and the aircraft had to be landed well above the normal landing speed because of the fuel weight. Also, it was the outboard #1 engine that could not be stopped.

The good outcome was due to complete CRM, (cockpit resource managment) not to any check and training captain, but due to proper training of the whole crew under the command of a very experienced captain.

[Homestar]

Does it have an auto setting? The cars I've had with climate control I find I rarely if ever actually have to touch stuff like that. Just because one user interface is crap doesn't mean they all are.

Despite the defender having horrible ergonomics I can adjust pretty much all the controls in my defender without having to look away from the road due to length of ownership. The heater/blower, the vents, and the ac/fan.

BUT. On a long road trip I find having to constantly change all this stuff to keep everyone comfortable is really tiring. It's a lot of additional driver workload that simply isn't there in cars with good climate.

This is why VW got panned. Because the climate didn't work well, and the capacitive buttons didn't work well and I don't think they were backlit. So really hard to operate. Hopeless.

As I say over and over again - at least with the Tesla UI you rarely actually have to touch the screen while driving. And if you do look away at least the car is still watching.

We’re taking an $24K drive away car here - not much of anything is automatic apart from the transmission. [emoji16]

That’s actually not fair - I think it punches above its weight for the price but it doesn’t seem to have climate control as such no. Just ‘wind speed’ adjustment instead of fan speed and temp up/down.

[Tins]

Gotta love how driving a Tesla puts one above the laws the rest of us mere mortals are forced to obey.

[PhilipA]

Arh, you may want to read it again; Wiki has a good description of what transpired
I was recalling the original article/interviews as wiki often gets things incomplete.
You missed the point a bit.
The point was that the computers were of little help and were in fact a hindrance seeing that many of the sensors were destroyed by the damage.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Comparing the cockpit of an A380, with its highly trained operators who undergo continual reassessments to ensure competence and a military grade ability to react automatically to almost any foreseeable situation in a very highly controlled environment with few external factors to worry about with driving a car, with usually highly untrained operators who are distracted by a thousand things and have constant incursions into their immediate environment almost every second, with absolutely no experience or reassessment of their capabilities, in the totally chaotic system that is traffic is disingenuous at best, and a pathetic piece of attempted legerdemain at worst. There is no valid comparison.

[Old Farang]

I was recalling the original article/interviews as wiki often gets things incomplete.
You missed the point a bit.
The point was that the computers were of little help and were in fact a hindrance seeing that many of the sensors were destroyed by the damage.
Regards PhilipA
Well the simple fact is: that aircraft, and most modern aircraft, will simply not get off the ground without computer control systems!

[Tins]

Well the simple fact is: that aircraft, and most modern aircraft, will simply not get off the ground without computer control systems!

That's been the case for decades. The difference between a commercial jetliner and ANY car is stratospheric. The aircraft is far more complex, and its operating environment is far simpler, and far more regulated.

[NavyDiver]

I was going to point out the "sponging on the poorer taxpayer" argument, but you did it far more eloquently ( and politely ) than I was going to... [bigwhistle]

[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Shhhh I paid the vic milage EV tax- Until it wasn't legal for them to charge me and they gave me the money back with interest [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

ON EV only side[biggrin] In QLD for last two weeks. Hire car for one week. Checking the usual got $$$ A VOOM VOOM site offered me a BYD atto from Sixt car rentals for $42 Daily being 1/2 the price from them directly[bigsmile]

Noted that the BYD was a little better and a lot "not" in just a few areas. It still cannot tow my boat [thumbsupbig]

Dropped it off in 22degrees this morning. Car hire place drop off place had hundreds of cars with about 10%+ seeming to be EVs. Single Polestar, Kia BYD, MG, Volvo and Tesla ev were in a majority to the ICE. What was interesting was being there not that long ago saw almost no EV options.


EV charging North of Brisbane was much better than Vic!!!!!!!! Vic is not too bad now.

My complaint is personal- The bloody BYD windscreen wipers went on far to often until perhaps this morning. Got back to a chilly 12 degrees and a dull Melbourne winters day and turned my MGs windscreen wipers on three time [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

With news like I got this morning about a huge break through in Breast/Ovarian cancer treatment news I may just jump the gun and consider the Kia EV9 again[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!!! I am a long-term tragic investor in some sectors [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

This news is interesting for me in Investment terms "The Automotive Cells Company joint venture pledged to invest as much as $7.6B in three factories. Just one has been built so far.Automotive Cells Company (ACC), a joint venture between Stellantis, Mercedes-Benz, and TotalEnergies, halted work on two electric vehicle battery gigafactories in Europe, citing a slowdown in EV sales growth.
The European joint venture had planned three battery factories in the European Union (https://insideevs.com/news/575692/automotive-cell-company-gigafactory-italy/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) with a total investment of roughly $7.6 billion by 2030: one in Kaiserslautern, Germany, one in Termoli, Italy, and one in Douvrin, France. The latter went online last year, but the other two are now in limbo as ACC is trying to figure out how to proceed during a time when the projections of some EV makers were a bit too optimistic."

I want the solid state batteries and suspect they would make current tech obsolete almost immediately. This news with a nice jump in another battery company is interesting timing???

[Tins]

The cause of the fire "remains under investigation". All the loud popping could be little cells of diesel going off I guess...


https://youtu.be/U6dlHpKE-ug'si=nXl4HfNNjzmMb3Zt

[DiscoDB]

On the topic of car park fires, the investigation into the Luton Airport car park fire has confirmed it was caused by a Diesel.

Fire at airport car park started accidentally | Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service (https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/fire-airport-car-park-started-accidentally)

One of the lessons from the Liverpool car park fire, also started by a Petrol Range Rover, was the use of plastic fuel tanks in modern ICE’s is why fires spread so rapidly once they start.

https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf

This combined with the high calorific value that modern cars now have means the fire risk is significantly higher today compared to when most multi storey car parks were built.

Eventually the calls for sprinkler protection to be mandated in all multi-storey car parks will be acted on. Likewise you have to question if plastic fuel tanks should be banned as well.

[NavyDiver]

On the topic of car park fires, the investigation into the Luton Airport car park fire has confirmed it was caused by a Diesel.

Fire at airport car park started accidentally | Bedfordshire Fire and Rescue Service (https://www.bedsfire.gov.uk/news/fire-airport-car-park-started-accidentally)

One of the lessons from the Liverpool car park fire, also started by a Petrol Range Rover, was the use of plastic fuel tanks in modern ICE’s is why fires spread so rapidly once they start.

https://www.bafsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/2018/12/Merseyside-FRS-Car-Park-Report.pdf

This combined with the high calorific value that modern cars means the fire risk is significantly higher today compared to when most multi storey car parks were built.

Eventually the calls for sprinkler protection to be mandated in all multi-storey car parks will be acted on. Likewise you have to question if plastic fuel tanks should be banned as well.

Fires and fire fighting are cool memories for me. BIG pools of oil in particular. AFFF was hmmmmmmmm used a LOT alas perhaps maybe or bugger! SCBA was so close to SCUBA that its funny. Sharks and ... or Fires and gasses and AFFF[bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm] Sharks have never bothered me[thumbsupbig] I didnt swim in the Maroochydore river recently as I have met Bull Sharks before [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] Respect?


Back to EVs alone- I am NOT buying 200-300km boat towing limit! Just because you can make it was my Chemo Express EV. Once is enough. Next version is out soon happily.

Family towing a caravan across Australia in an EV to prove ScoMo and doubters wrong (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/family-towing-a-caravan-across-australia-in-an-ev-to-prove-scomo-and-doubters-wrong/ar-BB1nMk2r?ocid=msedgntp&pc=EDBBAN&cvid=9c67c5a7980742b5a473539bfcab827b&ei=14)

Edit Aqueous film forming foams (AFFF) is amazing in good and bad ways

[cripesamighty]

I saw the CCTV footage of the Luton fire and there was a blowtorch of flames jetting out perpendicular from behind the front passenger wheel, which coincidentally is where the battery is located on a diesel hybrid RRS. That seems a little fishy to me, especially since the fire department first said it was a hybrid and then changed their minds. I'm sure the truth will eventually out if it wasn't a straight up diesel, but there seems to be an awful lot of greenwashing and mis-information going on with EV fires in the UK of late, like the bus fires.

This is from a building safety conference in London last year. The videos homepage has the rest of the conference videos in sequence. It's very interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXTP-TgPEw

John Cadogan, of the potty mouth, has a couple of vids which covers a novel way to fight EV fires, especially shipboard fires. You can find the links on his channel
1. Best EV firefighting (thermal runaway) technique yet!
2. Science -Vs- your Lithium-ion & EV firefighting feedback

[DiscoDB]

Possibly a DPF fire or combustible fluid spraying onto the DPF.

Was reported that vehicle checks on the number plate also showed it was a 2014 Range Rover Sport TDV6. Don’t believe hybrid was even an option on that model in 2014.

The full investigation report should get published in the next 3 months or so.

[cripesamighty]

That's interesting, because they went to great lengths to say it wasn't EV related, long before the fire had even been put out, which nearly always means the opposite! [bigwhistle]
The whole building code for open plan parking garages is getting a shakeup in the UK because of this, which can only be a good thing. In the end it doesn't matter what starts a fire in a parking garage or worse a tunnel, when EV's get caught in the mix, they cannot be extinguished so make the situation more complex/worse. I would be running upwind and out of there as fast as humanly possible given the types of toxins given off by burning batteries. Well, unless you are on a ship of course, and we have already lost one sunk due to an EV fire (Felicity Ace) in Feb '22, and almost lost another one (Fremantle Highway) in July '23, both of which displaced around 60,000 tonnes. Interesting times ahead!

[NavyDiver]

American perhaps? "Thanks to affordable new models from General Motors, Tesla and Hyundai, price parity with gas cars is no longer a distant dream.After years of capital-intensive development, falling lithium prices and a shift to focus more on the mass market with affordable options, a growing number of long-range electric vehicles are now finally cheaper to purchase than average gas cars in the U.S.
The average transaction price for new vehicles in April 2024 was $48,500, according to Cox Automotive (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/april-2024-atp-report/) data. As Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-07/long-range-evs-now-cost-less-than-the-average-us-new-car?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVC J9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSI sImlhdCI6MTcxNzc2NjI2MywiZXhwIjoxNzE4MzcxMDYzLCJhc nRpY2xlSWQiOiJTRVBGU0lUMEcxS1cwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQ iOiJFNUE4M0NCRjYwQjE0NzEwOTU5QkQ0NjYyQzU0REI0NCJ9. UKAxgTs7nv0bEvTBKO3eAthSc6hjgpyqH-l-9KxEbp4) first reported, there’s an increasing crop of long-range EVs with more than 300 miles of range that are considerably cheaper than that."

Still cannot tow my boat far enough[biggrin]

[4bee]

American perhaps? "Thanks to affordable new models from General Motors, Tesla and Hyundai, price parity with gas cars is no longer a distant dream.

After years of capital-intensive development, falling lithium prices and a shift to focus more on the mass market with affordable options, a growing number of long-range electric vehicles are now finally cheaper to purchase than average gas cars in the U.S.
The average transaction price for new vehicles in April 2024 was $48,500, according to Cox Automotive (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/april-2024-atp-report/) data. As Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-07/long-range-evs-now-cost-less-than-the-average-us-new-car?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVC J9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSI sImlhdCI6MTcxNzc2NjI2MywiZXhwIjoxNzE4MzcxMDYzLCJhc nRpY2xlSWQiOiJTRVBGU0lUMEcxS1cwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQ iOiJFNUE4M0NCRjYwQjE0NzEwOTU5QkQ0NjYyQzU0REI0NCJ9. UKAxgTs7nv0bEvTBKO3eAthSc6hjgpyqH-l-9KxEbp4) first reported, there’s an increasing crop of long-range EVs with more than 300 miles of range that are considerably cheaper than that."

Still cannot tow my boat far enough[biggrin]

Maybe you should have kept your ICE Motorbike[biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

Maybe you should have kept your ICE Motorbike[biggrin]

It is in Prison for killing the car that run thought the stop sign Des. It may have been partly my body that killed that car?? [bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]

Sadly, the very nice 1999 bike was not as lucky as I am mate. I am still running [bigrolf]


https://www.youtube.com/watch'time_continue=587&v=Ur47okU3eUk&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.com%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.com&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjIsMjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

[NavyDiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3q4pqfO1io

"Released in Honda's Summary of 2024 Honda Business Briefing on Direction of Electrification Initiatives and Investment Strategy, the company's outlook on EVs is one that aims to have a fully electric fleet by 2040.
And that includes all of its motorcycles."

That seem a big announcement[bigwhistle]

[4bee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3q4pqfO1io

"Released in Honda's Summary of 2024 Honda Business Briefing on Direction of Electrification Initiatives and Investment Strategy, the company's outlook on EVs is one that aims to have a fully electric fleet by 2040.
And that includes all of its motorcycles."

That seem a big announcement[bigwhistle]

[bigrolf] Certainly it's title is.

[Homestar]

Will others follow suit?

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/amp/volkswagen-investments-billions-gas-engines/71542/

[NavyDiver]

Will others follow suit?

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/amp/volkswagen-investments-billions-gas-engines/71542/

Elec J may wish to? "According to the lawsuit filed in Delaware Chancery Court, Musk and his brother Kimbal, a Tesla director, sold $30 billion worth of Tesla shares between late 2021 and late 2022.The sales occurred before news emerged that caused Tesla's stock price to drop.
The lawsuit claims Musk concealed his plan to use the proceeds to buy the social media platform Twitter, thereby selling Tesla shares at artificially inflated prices.
Additionally, Musk allegedly sold shares despite knowing that deliveries of new vehicles were falling short of official projections."[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[4bee]

Will others follow suit?

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/amp/volkswagen-investments-billions-gas-engines/71542/
Hell! I hope not, there is not enough screen space left after Honda's little burst. :rulez:[bigrolf]

[prelude]

I saw that nissan leaf vid on the t00b as well. Is it just me or is a car with a mere 45k miles on it rather worn if the battery is already down to 70% capacity? We are sold lithium in droves because it is so much betterder (spelling intended) and can handle 2000 cycles easy! but 45K miles is certainly not 2000 cycles.

Let us assume that the poor leaf never did the 120miles from factory since most range predictions are somewhat exaggerated and say it started of doing 100 miles, gradually degrading to the 60 it can now do during this test. That is an average of 80 over the lifespan which means that to do 45000 miles with 80 miles tops you need to charge 563 times. That is a mere quarter of the 2000 cycles a lithium battery should be able to handle. Admittedly since the range is so poor most of the times they would not have kept the battery in the lithium butter-zone so that would have had an impact.

For once :) not bashing EV's but I wonder... The same came to light with Harry's video a while back. Now I know EVangelists (thanks to Cadogan for that term :P) will excuse it and say new battery tech will be there soon (tm) but I still find that somewhat disturbing to see.

PS. I decided to write down my conclusion in stead of waiting for a response since this thread does go rather fast in all sorts of directions.

If we are to keep a lithium battery in it's optimum zone we can use a mere 60% (which incidentally is about as much as you could use from a proper lead-acid battery to keep cycle life up which I find hilarious but that aside) since you need to keep it above 20% soc and charge it no further than 80%. Also, we should not charge with more than 0.5c (from memory). This means that any EV at this point in time, if bought for the environment AND your pocket should abide by those rules to last the longest and not waste raw materials. For that leaf (let's be generous and assume 120 miles from new) that means 72 miles of range and 2 hours charge time at least.

If you use it as a soccer-moms car then no doubt you can handle this, for any other use I am not sure...

Cheers,
-P

[Tins]

Will others follow suit?

https://www.auto123.com/en/news/amp/volkswagen-investments-billions-gas-engines/71542/

I think they all will. Why build things only a few want? Reckon the writing's on the wall in Europe with tens of thousands of the things sitting on docks, unwanted. Recent events in the EU may see more changes. Reckon we're going to be a dumping ground for a while though. Li Qiang is coming here for a reason.

[4bee]

I think they all will. Why build things only a few want? Reckon the writing's on the wall in Europe with tens of thousands of the things sitting on docks, unwanted. Recent events in the EU may see more changes. Reckon we're going to be a dumping ground for a while though. Li Qiang is coming here for a reason.
Of course it wouldn't "Those stupid bloody Aussies have all that dusty bloody surplus Ground there & if they get a strop on I'll threaten another ban on stuff, Wine, .seafood etc.f Easy peasy i"

In Chinese of course.[bigrolf]

[DoubleChevron]

More LOLs from me. The guy on a LandRover forum likes his cars to have good resale. [bigrolf]

Anyway leaving that aside - I do think while the price war is hotting up that we are going to see solid EV depreciation. Probably no worse than ice cars of similar prices - but it's going to seem bad after the pandemic boom and early EV resale prices. Lower operating costs will offset this (likely with change).

The thing is IMHO the EV price war is not just going to be about EV's. It's going to spread to ICE cars. Pretty soon people will have the choice of a second hand camry hybrid or an brand new (likely chinese) EV for similar prices. The EV won't have the range of the camry, but will beat it in all other respects. Lower costs for "fuel", less servicing etc.

I remember when Hyundai hit the Australian market. The resale of all secondhand cars dropped because you could buy a second hand car or a new Hyundai. IMHO it not going to be long until legacy manufacturers give up competing with the coming EV wave, and will try and hide in the corners of the markets that EV's aren't competitive in. Like the 4x4 ute market and large 4x4. And even then I expect some pain as EV manufacturers try to hit that market.

And it's happening even faster than I expected. I thought we would see this end of the decade but looks like it's going to be the next few years.

But I guess it's easy to ignore little old me. The thing is there are a lot of industry insiders who have seen what's happening in China and are just saying "We're f#$%ed".

From the head of Kia.

"Australia's new-car market is set to "change dramatically", with the influx of Chinese brands, putting legacy car makers at real risk of failure."

"It is going to change dramatically": Kia says Chinese brands like MG, Haval, Chery, BYD, GAC, Leapmotor and Geely will permanently reshape Australia's new-car market, putting legacy brands like Toyota, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, Mitsubishi and Mazda at risk - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/it-is-going-to-change-dramatically-kia-says-chinese-brands-like-mg-haval-chery-byd-gac)


He has a good point, I wouldnt touch an electric car with a 10 foot barge pole. Who would be insane ... crazy enough to even dream of touching one of these coming off lease. I'm guessing the resale value will be less than zero. As I have no doubt when the fools in government realise how insanely dangerous these batteries are ... they will require the poor fool that buys the car coming off lease to be responsible for the safe disposal of the battery. Which is an impossibility.

Tesla Vehicle Batteries Degrade Under 65% of Rated Range After Only Three Years (https://gizmodo.com.au/2024/06/tesla-vehicle-batteries-degrade-under-65-of-rated-range-after-only-three-years/)

I sure wouldn't touch a rapidly deteriorating battery car ever ... not for any reason. They would certainly not be allowed to be charged or stored anywhere near the house where the family is sleeping. In the (extremely rare) event of a battery fire, you have mere seconds to sprint for your life.

[NavyDiver]

This may be one of the best studies on why it's almost impossible to flip from fuel to EV in Long Beach (Los Angeles ) Port despite
80 million in funding already.

1000 plus port trucks and other equipment and the almost impossible charging infrastructure required.
A tiny bit of that cash is in a little test and link to the program which is thought to be impossible.

"The California Energy Commission awarded a $9.7 million grant toward the expected $13.7 million total cost of this project, one of the nation’s largest demonstration and deployment for zero-emissions cargo-handling equipment. The project will be undertaken at Piers G, J, and F and includes nine electric rubber-tire gantry cranes, 12 yard tractors, and four hybrid and electric drayage trucks, as well as workforce development training programs" Program Details - Port of Long Beach (polb.com) (https://polb.com/environment/our-zero-emissions-future/#program-details)

A full consideration including EV, Bio, SAF, Hydrogen and other options in Heavy Transport Unsupported browser (https://open.spotify.com/episode/1aZNYZtFzdhUsWN3N9Qjnv'si=6KjZeiZASG-3hhqcHsHMMA)

Above is based on How will we move the big, heavy things?The ten biggest questions in energy & climate tech, Question 9 (https://steelforfuel.substack.com/p/how-will-we-move-the-big-heavy-things)

[4bee]

This may be one of the best studies on why it's almost impossible to flip from fuel to EV in Long Beach (Los Angeles ) Port despite
80 million in funding already.

1000 plus port trucks and other equipment and the almost impossible charging infrastructure required.
A tiny bit of that cash is in a little test and link to the program which is thought to be impossible.

"The California Energy Commission awarded a $9.7 million grant toward the expected $13.7 million total cost of this project, one of the nation’s largest demonstration and deployment for zero-emissions cargo-handling equipment. The project will be undertaken at Piers G, J, and F and includes nine electric rubber-tire gantry cranes, 12 yard tractors, and four hybrid and electric drayage trucks, as well as workforce development training programs" Program Details - Port of Long Beach (polb.com) (https://polb.com/environment/our-zero-emissions-future/#program-details)

A full consideration including EV, Bio, SAF, Hydrogen and other options in Heavy Transport Unsupported browser (https://open.spotify.com/episode/1aZNYZtFzdhUsWN3N9Qjnv'si=6KjZeiZASG-3hhqcHsHMMA)

Above is based on How will we move the big, heavy things?

The ten biggest questions in energy & climate tech, Question 9 (https://steelforfuel.substack.com/p/how-will-we-move-the-big-heavy-things)




L
Simple if you think about it. You get a bloody great powerful Diesel Low Loader to shift it with diesel equipment at each end to load & unload.


Seems this EV crap hasn't been thought through far enough yet.


TiC,[smilebigeye]

[PhilipA]

First Model 3 at 30K asking price on Carsales.
Going doooown.

Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

First Model 3 at 30K asking price on Carsales.
Going doooown.

Regards PhilipA

2020 model, 115k on the clock, $30K The ad quotes a range of 470km, which it wouldn't have got when new. Only the showoff or the ill informed ( often the same thing ) would be buying such a thing, with its upcoming need for a batt replacement.

That bloke in the UK with the yt channel ( hard to watch, but informative on a shouty level ) has seen mindblowing depreciation on his Taycan. If he'd bought the car he wants now, some form of ICE 911, sure he would have had instant "driven off the showroom floor" depreciation, but his car would still be worth about 75-80% of his purchase price, not 25%.

It'll end in tears. The super cheap Panda country rubbish is already a disposable commodity, cos who is going to stump up for a new batt in one of those? And will the Panda country take responsibility for said disposal? Like hell they will. So much for "green, zero emission environmental friendliness". And the grid still can't cope with the things, and likely never will.

But EVangelists still hold out their hands for other people's money with no conscience.

[Tote]

There's a bit of an irony in the bleats of "Australia is a dumping ground for dirty polluting ICE vehicles that cant be sold anywhere else" when in fact we are on the receiving end of a very large proportuion of subsidised Chinese production because everywhere else has imposed big tariffs on them. I suppose it's not like we have a local car industry though and if I can buy a cheap EV and throw it away when its flat its a win for everyone except the environment.....Oh wait, what was the benefit of EVs again...

Regards,
Tote

[NavyDiver]

There's a bit of an irony in the bleats of "Australia is a dumping ground for dirty polluting ICE vehicles that cant be sold anywhere else" when in fact we are on the receiving end of a very large proportuion of subsidised Chinese production because everywhere else has imposed big tariffs on them. I suppose it's not like we have a local car industry though and if I can buy a cheap EV and throw it away when its flat its a win for everyone except the environment.....Oh wait, what was the benefit of EVs again...

Regards,
Tote

Like the cheaper price bit. Do you want to pay MORE
Note of course [B]"Tariffs are paid by the buyers not the seller" [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Where they are used to protect essential industry they might have a place. Free trade is a funny thing. We Export billions of iron ore wheat, wool, fish, crayfish, cotton, services and a lot more[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Back to EVs "Smart" #1 and #2 are apparently coming to Aus in September 2024. Its a JV
"The Smart #1 and #3 have both been confirmed for Australia, including in flagship Brabus performance guises, though local specifications haven’t been revealed.In China, they offer single rear-mounted electric motors producing up to 200kW of power and 343Nm of torque, paired with a 66kWh nickel-cobalt-manganese battery.
Brabus versions add a front electric motor and boost outputs to 315kW and 543Nm.
[B]Smart is now joint-owned by Geely and Mercedes-Benz, and all its cars are built in Xi’an, China."

What got my interest is a #5 which is a concept only sadly. Integrated winch ring anyone's bell?

Off-road concept previews largest Smart ever | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/off-road-concept-previews-largest-smart-ever)


No towing details of course[bawl]
https://images.carexpert.com.au/crop/1600/1067/app/uploads/2024/04/Smart-5-concept-11.jpg

[Old Farang]

I suppose it is to be expected from someone that cannot spell "braking":

The EV battery trick that can save you money on the road: 'Very efficient'


The EV battery trick that can save you money on the road: 'Very efficient' (yahoo.com) (https://au.news.yahoo.com/the-ev-battery-trick-that-can-save-you-money-on-the-road-very-efficient-063420193.html)

A surprising feature of electric vehicles (https://au.news.yahoo.com/news/aussie-council-praised-for-brilliant-solution-to-common-ev-problem-040052279.html) has become a new talking point after one early adopter revealed a little-known trick that pumped power back (https://au.news.yahoo.com/news/warning-over-hidden-electric-car-issue-harming-aussies-useless-as-an-investment-213412386.html) into her car’s battery (https://au.news.yahoo.com/news/electric-car-owners-rant-about-car-parked-charging-station-102801307.html) — while she was driving. Motorist Jacinta Green has shared her delight at watching her car's battery (https://au.news.yahoo.com/news/tesla-photo-turns-electric-car-anxiety-on-its-head-during-aussie-long-weekend-021751071.html) "tick backwards like the Ferrari in Ferris Mueller’s Day off" as the battery gained power while on the road.
Jacinta Green, who lives in rural Bungaba in NSW, said she was driving her MG Essence in sports mode and KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) through slow-moving traffic in the Blue Mountains region just outside Sydney (https://au.news.yahoo.com/tagged/sydney/) when she noticed power was going back into the battery (https://au.news.yahoo.com/news/finance/news/solid-state-ev-batteries-could-220706139.html).
She told Yahoo News Australia the trick was made possible through regenerative breaking, a feature on all EVs, and saw her car battery charge (https://au.news.yahoo.com/news/their-prices-may-be-dropping-but-heres-why-i-wont-be-buying-an-ev-060712656.html) go from 23 per cent to over 35 per cent full while driving between 35 and 40km/h and breaking often.

[Saitch]

Like the cheaper price bit. Do you want to pay MORE[biggrin]



Off-road concept previews largest Smart ever | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/off-road-concept-previews-largest-smart-ever)


No towing details of course[bawl]
https://images.carexpert.com.au/crop/1600/1067/app/uploads/2024/04/Smart-5-concept-11.jpg

What was old is new, again. With a big "Thanks" to 3Toes for this photo.


190487

[Tombie]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/448676516_122193459620064018_5641525227130005324_n .jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=25kvGVTUeZQQ7kNvgFnCX9v&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=00_AYCDUCFCRkA9BrUCGc-FClqK_4JKtJ1lnpYoQmgWpEsuyQ&oe=667ED694

[4bee]

Like the cheaper price bit. Do you want to pay MORE
Note of course [B]"Tariffs are paid by the buyers not the seller" [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Where they are used to protect essential industry they might have a place. Free trade is a funny thing. We Export billions of iron ore wheat, wool, fish, crayfish, cotton, services and a lot more[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

Back to EVs "Smart" #1 and #2 are apparently coming to Aus in September 2024. Its a JV
"The Smart #1 and #3 have both been confirmed for Australia, including in flagship Brabus performance guises, though local specifications haven’t been revealed.In China, they offer single rear-mounted electric motors producing up to 200kW of power and 343Nm of torque, paired with a 66kWh nickel-cobalt-manganese battery.
Brabus versions add a front electric motor and boost outputs to 315kW and 543Nm.
[B]Smart is now joint-owned by Geely and Mercedes-Benz, and all its cars are built in Xi’an, China."

What got my interest is a #5 which is a concept only sadly. Integrated winch ring anyone's bell?

Off-road concept previews largest Smart ever | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/off-road-concept-previews-largest-smart-ever)


No towing details of course[bawl]
https://images.carexpert.com.au/crop/1600/1067/app/uploads/2024/04/Smart-5-concept-11.jpg

Gives new meaning to the olde "The Rag Trade TV series 1961 "Everybody out". [biggrin]


Miriam Karlin & the usual mob of misfits.

[Tins]

At least with this, when the battery dies you could put it in a room and just look at the thing...


https://youtu.be/PClxnRzIE4g'si=UojouOezWZDAlVVL

[Tins]

Not with me in it.

OK, I accept this isn't strictly an EV thing, but they are definitely the usual suspects.


https://youtu.be/090ZLg0SrMA'si=IZCzwUg0c-whXiVh

Anyone who lets the car drive while they text are Darwin Awards material.

[prelude]

At least its another write off :) I mean, even if you COULD fix it nobody wants to touch them or have them in their body shops...

-P

[spudfan]

"The EV market has become so “unsustainable” that a Wicklow car dealership no longer accepts them as trade-ins. "
There is a link to her radio interview
‘Such a big risk’ – The car dealership that won’t buy electric vehicles | Newstalk (https://www.newstalk.com/news/such-a-big-risk-the-car-dealership-that-wont-buy-electric-vehicles-1647039)

[JDNSW]

The major risk is probably not being able to get parts, in particular panels and trim items such as fancy lights and sensors at a predictable price or in a predictable time frame, making repair quotes virtually impossible. This is largely a function of most EVs not coming from traditional manufacturers (even in some cases where they have a traditional manufacturer's badge), and with the fact that most of them are relatively new models, and especially in Australia, are sold (so far at least) in tiny numbers for each model.

This is not peculiar to EVs - I can remember similar issues when Japanese manufacturers were stating to appear in Australia, and more recently with Korean and even more recently Chinese ones. (Not to mention many repairers attitude when faced with a Landrover!)

[Tins]

This is not peculiar to EVs - I can remember similar issues when Japanese manufacturers were stating to appear in Australia, and more recently with Korean and even more recently Chinese ones. (Not to mention many repairers attitude when faced with a Landrover!)

To be fair, those early Japanese cars, Toyota KE10/11 Corollas, RT40 Coronas, MS45 Crowns, Datsun 1000/1200 etc didn't require repairs for ages after their purchase, other than collision ones. The Japanese "Big Three" ( Mitsubishi was represented by the Colt ) very quickly ramped up supply to the foreign to them markets. And Toyota's commitment to resolving engineering problems, particularly on LandCruisers on the Snowy, was legendary. When Daihatsu entered the small car fray with the 3 cyl Charade all parts were in the inventory prior to release. We got parts before the first car arrived. Other than service parts and panels, we never needed them.

Biggest issue with crashed EVs seems to be that nobody wants the things anywhere near their premises, or other vehicles, due to the astonishing risk of severe, catastrophic fires. In the UK it appears that only the Govt's desire to put a shining face on the things prevents them from becoming even more uninsurable than a Range Rover, for totally different reasons. Can't begin to imagine what the insurers there think of an all electric Rangie. Fire and theft has a whole new connotation.

[prelude]

Seen that video too, yes. (for a guy who has basically written off electric vehicles for the foreseeable future I do still watch it a lot hmm?) [bighmmm]

Repairability was an issue with fuel injection and basically every new fancy thing as well. I just watched a video on the new honda generator the eu32i in which some bloke claimed that injectors and such are a bigger problem to be repaired and maintained and ever more expensive than the old carby setups. It's like hearing discussions from the late 70's early 80's all over :) The point IS valid, but how much so?

The biggest problem with EV's is the fire risk which is relatively low but the consequences can be very high and that's just an average EV on the street. By the time a car gets damaged though that's where the fun starts. With a petrol or diesel car you know it'll be fine once the car pulls up on the flatbed at your shop. If it was going to burn, it would have done so. From that point forward the chances of the car combusting or you getting seriously injured is either extremely low OR in you hands. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Not so with the EV's. Even if you had plenty of spares around AND if you are very keen with electronics, the battery pack is and remains a huge risk. There was a time when replaceable batteries were suggested that bolted to the bottom of the vehicle. That would in theory, assuming the crash was not bad enough to jam the pack stuck, help a lot since you could drop the battery pack outside and move the vehicle in to work on it. The risks would be the same as an ICE (or even less since effectively it would not even have a partial tank of fuel).

I think that that is the problem for now and probably the foreseeable future as well. I don't think we can change that with the current technology and it's up to us to decide if we find that acceptable. The people who have made it their business to sell and maintain cars (and make a living) seem to think it is not.

-P

[Tins]

I just watched a video on the new honda generator the eu32i in which some bloke claimed that injectors and such are a bigger problem to be repaired and maintained and ever more expensive than the old carby setups. It's like hearing discussions from the late 70's early 80's all over :) The point IS valid, but how much so?

Stihl has the MS500i injected chainsaw. Son has one. It's brilliant. First time, every time.




There was a time when replaceable batteries were suggested that bolted to the bottom of the vehicle. That would in theory, assuming the crash was not bad enough to jam the pack stuck, help a lot since you could drop the battery pack outside and move the vehicle in to work on it.

-P

Any volunteers? Not me. BTW, the famous and very embarrassing truck fires here, the batts were removable for quick turnaround. Not sure that part of the tech is ready either.....

[Tins]

Govt here has just completed a new multistory carpark at the local terminus station. Not interested enough to count them, but there were maybe six chargers right at the front door. The cynical would say that they are there to give our betters quicker access to their trains, but I wondered if it's to give the fieries easier access to the IEDs.

That raises another question for me. The local fire brigade is CFA. They are mostly volunteers and are very much the poorer relative of the MFB. Are they equipped to deal with a potential multi EV fire?

[JDNSW]

To be fair, those early Japanese cars, Toyota KE10/11 Corollas, RT40 Coronas, MS45 Crowns, Datsun 1000/1200 etc didn't require repairs for ages after their purchase, other than collision ones. The Japanese "Big Three" ( Mitsubishi was represented by the Colt ) very quickly ramped up supply to the foreign to them markets. And Toyota's commitment to resolving engineering problems, particularly on LandCruisers on the Snowy, was legendary. When Daihatsu entered the small car fray with the 3 cyl Charade all parts were in the inventory prior to release. We got parts before the first car arrived. Other than service parts and panels, we never needed them.

Biggest issue with crashed EVs seems to be that nobody wants the things anywhere near their premises, or other vehicles, due to the astonishing risk of severe, catastrophic fires. In the UK it appears that only the Govt's desire to put a shining face on the things prevents them from becoming even more uninsurable than a Range Rover, for totally different reasons. Can't begin to imagine what the insurers there think of an all electric Rangie. Fire and theft has a whole new connotation.

Hmmm! selective memory?

I think back to 1963 - one of my colleagues bought a Mitsubishi Colt. The vinyl upholstery lasted about three months in western Qld sun. Replacements? Warranty? Don't be silly! Our responsibility ended when we sold it to you!

Earlier in the same year - on a station near (not very near) Aramac - their Landcruiser, bought in a flurry of expectation around 1960, was out of service waiting on a clutch. Had been for months. They were using their old, battered Series 1, no windscreen, no doors, no seat cushions (except driver). You could get parts for it from the dealer in Longreach.

Or my experience managing a fleet of new Landcruisers in the Simpson in 1965-6. We had plenty of spares, but of course the bit needed was rarely the one we had on hand - and even if parts could arrive in Alice within a couple of weeks, they were often the wrong part.

The Japanese established a generally good reputation, but only after they had a major presence in the country (either their own or with an existing organisation). This took years. A lot longer than it should today with better communications. Remember, in the early sixties, long distance phone calls were not considered a normal way of doing business - it was all by mail. And airmail cost more!

[Tins]

Hmmm! selective memory?



Not really, but I am not as old as you and my experience with these things was not remote. But I'll bet there were similar issues with nearly all car makes in the situations you describe, especially the imports from all nations.

[JDNSW]

Not really, but I am not as old as you and my experience with these things was not remote. But I'll bet there were similar issues with nearly all car makes in the situations you describe, especially the imports from all nations.

Exactly - the same is likely to apply to new makers entering the market, selling in small numbers for each model. It does not matter whether they are EVs or not - same applies. And this applies to virtually all EVs currently sold here, but especially the plethora of ones from China that nobody has ever heard of before (for any sort of car!).

[Homestar]

It appears nearly half of Aussies aren't thrilled with their EV's. Globally just under 1/3rd would switch. So much for 'Once you switch to an EV, you'll never go back'

Almost half of Australian EV owners would go back to petrol, diesel | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/almost-half-of-australian-ev-owners-would-go-back-to-petrol-diesel)

[NavyDiver]

It appears nearly half of Aussies aren't thrilled with their EV's. Globally just under 1/3rd would switch. So much for 'Once you switch to an EV, you'll never go back'

Almost half of Australian EV owners would go back to petrol, diesel | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/almost-half-of-australian-ev-owners-would-go-back-to-petrol-diesel)

800,000 km - one battery change at 666000km [bigrolf] Devils work in NSW [biggrin] First brake pads at 460000km- Only as it was in for a service as the owner asked about the pads [bigrolf]Thats impressive in my book!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOFfKQ7SxEg&amp;t=3s

[prelude]

Impressive indeed! Reminds me of those mercedes's from the 70's and 80's that could do a million without much trouble. Unfortunately they are a rare bread these days, just like EV's with such high mileage. :) Still, the guy owning that much be a lucky bloke :)

-P

[JDNSW]

Just to put this in perspective - my 1986 110 is well over 700,000km, engine is untouched except for servicing and seals etc. Injectors overhauled about 100,000km ago, Only on the second set of front brake pads, fourth set of rear shoes.

Other repairs have included swivels, tie rod ends, two clutches, several sets of shocks, one wheel bearing, steering box, drive flanges, one halfaxle (worn spline), and numerous seals and electrical bits.

[DoubleChevron]

800,000 km - one battery change at 666000km [bigrolf] Devils work in NSW [biggrin] First brake pads at 460000km- Only as it was in for a service as the owner asked about the pads [bigrolf]Thats impressive in my book!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOFfKQ7SxEg&amp;t=3s

I'm not overly surprised. if you get enough miles driven while the battery is young, it may hold up. Try a 5->8 year old battery. This is my biggest issue with electric cars. they are basically only transport for the wealthy. by the time they hit the used market. they may have a battery that will last ... but just as likely will not. How long do you get from you laptop, ipad, battery tools, phone .... it is the same battery, not just the same type ... the same battery.

How much will you give me for a 5 year old phone, even if its un-used ? .... :)

so by wealthy, you have a car ready to be thrown to the scrap heap in the very near future ... that may require a $20,000+ battery soon, so is effectively utterly worthless, especially if the poor bastard that buys it ends up liable for the battery disposal costs (which I can see already will be HUGE, expensive and downright dangerous).... ie: only the wealthy that can afford a new car will get to drive. you could buy a 5 year old one coming off lease (so long as you don't end up being liable for its battery disposal), but you certainly wouldn't pay more than pocket change for it .... because it may suddently stop working at the drop of a hat, at any time.

seeya
Shane L.

[NavyDiver]

I'm not overly surprised. if you get enough miles driven while the battery is young, it may hold up. Try a 5->8 year old battery. This is my biggest issue with electric cars. they are basically only transport for the wealthy. by the time they hit the used market. they may have a battery that will last ... but just as likely will not. How long do you get from you laptop, ipad, battery tools, phone .... it is the same battery, not just the same type ... the same battery.

How much will you give me for a 5 year old phone, even if its un-used ? .... :)

so by wealthy, you have a car ready to be thrown to the scrap heap in the very near future ... that may require a $20,000+ battery soon, so is effectively utterly worthless, especially if the poor bastard that buys it ends up liable for the battery disposal costs (which I can see already will be HUGE, expensive and downright dangerous).... ie: only the wealthy that can afford a new car will get to drive. you could buy a 5 year old one coming off lease (so long as you don't end up being liable for its battery disposal), but you certainly wouldn't pay more than pocket change for it .... because it may suddently stop working at the drop of a hat, at any time.

seeya
Shane L.

Brought five second hand Mobile phones during Covid for my Doctors to stop them having to use their own when we cranked up phone and Video appointments . They were Iphones and few years old. I am a tight ass

My laptop is over 5 years old and the battery is only 40-50% as good as it was. The old phones are about 80% I think.

"[B]that may require a $20,000+" Google "tesla model 3 battery replacement cost" and you'll find prices 1/2 that Note that the second hand engine I put in my D3 cost about that cost[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] RE "[B]because it may suddenly stop working at the drop of a hat, at any time. "My D3 suddenly stopped working while on my front lawn![bawl][bawl]

Fully Appreciate 10 to 20K replacement battery would be painful. My Discos replacement engine was as well. Noting my usual service place suggested twice the price that I managed to find! A ICE replacement engine /gear box cost is possibly more likley than a battery? Quick search for "how likely is a engine or gear box replacement in a high milage car"

With many tens of thousands of bits in our ICE cars compared to the few bits in a EV betting which has higher maitaince costs is possibly easy. What Are The Most Common Parts To Fail In High Mileage Cars? (iloadengine.com.au) (https://iloadengine.com.au/what-are-the-most-common-parts-to-fail-in-high-mileage-car-maintenance/) Both my D3s had significant work on them which I had suspected on the very high km traveled on the first. I didn't appreciate the engine on the 2nd one going BANG with its much lower km traveled[tonguewink]


Re "[B]only transport for the wealthy" Any newish Landrover is not a poor persons transport option either [biggrin]

[DoubleChevron]

Brought five second hand Mobile phones during Covid for my Doctors to stop them having to use their own when we cranked up phone and Video appointments . They were Iphones and few years old. I am a tight ass

My laptop is over 5 years old and the battery is only 40-50% as good as it was. The old phones are about 80% I think.

"[B]that may require a $20,000+" Google "tesla model 3 battery replacement cost" and you'll find prices 1/2 that Note that the second hand engine I put in my D3 cost about that cost[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] RE "[B]because it may suddenly stop working at the drop of a hat, at any time. "My D3 suddenly stopped working while on my front lawn![bawl][bawl]

Fully Appreciate 10 to 20K replacement battery would be painful. My Discos replacement engine was as well. Noting my usual service place suggested twice the price that I managed to find! A ICE replacement engine /gear box cost is possibly more likley than a battery? Quick search for "how likely is a engine or gear box replacement in a high milage car"

With many tens of thousands of bits in our ICE cars compared to the few bits in a EV betting which has higher maitaince costs is possibly easy. What Are The Most Common Parts To Fail In High Mileage Cars? (iloadengine.com.au) (https://iloadengine.com.au/what-are-the-most-common-parts-to-fail-in-high-mileage-car-maintenance/) Both my D3s had significant work on them which I had suspected on the very high km traveled on the first. I didn't appreciate the engine on the 2nd one going BANG with its much lower km traveled[tonguewink]


Re "[B]only transport for the wealthy" Any newish Landrover is not a poor persons transport option either [biggrin]

Just stop for a minute. You appear to think I'm attacking. I'm just laying out facts.

https://i.redd.it/e2mmhjme8i391.png

it is a 3 second google search to verify these batteries are at least $20,000 to replace.

Google 18650 cells. your capacity even it doesn't completely die by 8 years, will probably be about 30% of the original capacity. How long will that 30% last ? Will that even get you to the local supermarket and back [bigwhistle]

Here is some real world data, from the cars themselves:

Tesla Vehicle Batteries Degrade Under 65% of Rated Range After Only Three Years (https://gizmodo.com.au/2024/06/tesla-vehicle-batteries-degrade-under-65-of-rated-range-after-only-three-years/)

A battery car is a throw away item. We are still running an old poogoe 407 here as the family car. my wife has done 250,000kms in it over the last 12 years. Its now 17years old. If we had purchased a battery car, that would be $40,000 -> $60,000 in batteries it would have needed ot continue to be a functional, usable car. It still will do over 1000kms from a tank while sipping fuel at about 7L/100. It will probably continue to do so for easily another decade with minimal upkeep.

See what I mean by electric cars just being nuts ? They are transport for the wealthy, and I'm betting 95% of them never purchase a 2nd electric car after being burnt by the first one (even if its just the horndous ... non existant resale of it.... in the scenario they are one of the few that can live iwth its limitations).

Please don't read this as anti-electric car. I reckon that are fascinating things. The problem is they are also just ridiculous, an environmental travesty due to their toxic battery and horrendously tiny life span. The only way you will get high milage out of an electric car ... is expensive battery replacements. or huge milage while the battery is very young ... eg Taxi work.

[prelude]

My engine rebuild was I believe 9K (euro's) all in. Labour is expensive. I have -never- had to replace an engine in one of my Honda's, all have been driven to 300+ K without so much as a hiccup. A second hand engine would be put in if it were to croak. See, the thing is: I can visually inspect a second hand engine and make a fairly good judgement call. Not so on a battery. It's what we talked about many pages ago regarding the very good comment Harry made in his video.

One does wonder though, what WOULD have happened if in the 80's we got EV's and they would not be downplayed by the car/oil industry? I think before lithium came out we would have had a reasonable idea what the use of such vehicle was and we would not be in this circus we are today. One can hope?

Cheers,
-P

[Old Farang]

News to me:

EV drivers warned of number plate detail attracting $257 fine


EV drivers warned of number plate detail attracting $257 fine (yahoo.com) (https://au.news.yahoo.com/ev-drivers-warned-of-number-plate-detail-attracting-257-fine-074717354.html)

As electric vehicle uptake soars across the country, drivers are being reminded of their safety requirements.


A small but critical detail subtly inserted on the number plates of electric vehicles (https://au.news.yahoo.com/warning-over-hidden-electric-car-issue-harming-aussies-useless-as-an-investment-213412386.htmlhttps://au.news.yahoo.com/warning-over-hidden-electric-car-issue-harming-aussies-useless-as-an-investment-213412386.html) plays a crucial role should they be involved in an accident, and Aussie drivers caught without one could be slapped with a hefty fine. (https://au.news.yahoo.com/driver-hit-with-387-fine-for-using-a-phone-awarded-4000-dont-accept-that-075542823.html)
That's the messaging from authorities around the country who are this week reminding motorists of the skyrocketing death toll on our roads (https://au.news.yahoo.com/deadliest-six-months-australian-roads-215900553.html), urging Australians to remain vigilant and adhere to vehicle safety standards in a desperate bid to drive fatalities down. (https://au.news.yahoo.com/aussies-warned-over-costly-road-act-as-70000-drivers-caught-by-new-cameras-230100720.html)
Under these safety standards, all electric vehicles registered in Australia (https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/major-reason-stopping-electric-cars-taking-over-australia-right-now-pretty-far-behind-230136172.html) are required to sport an "EV label" which lets emergency crews know when a car is electric, should it be involved in an accident, allowing them to respond accordingly.

The warning tag is compulsory for all EVs on Aussie roads manufactured after January 1, 2019, including hybrid, plug-in hybrid, full electric and hydrogen-powered vehicles. Western Australia is the only state not to enforce the mandate, with all other jurisdictions handing down fines for those caught without a label.