EV general discussion [Archive] - Page 3 - Australian Land Rover Owners

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Arapiles

14th November 2020, 06:38 PM

$30k for a second hand vehicle. No warranty.

Which won’t cut it on the run up the M1 and back (320km) if it’s hot, cold, stop/go etc or any of the multitudes of factors that take the theoretical range and reduce it by a significant amount in real world use.

Or go buy a std Xtrail or ASX and get a big warranty and save $15k over an EV version.

I think that you missed my reference to "current" model (the Leaf e+ is new and may actually be imported by Nissan next year) and I understood that the importers do provide warranties.

Edit: no-one's likely to buy a vehicle that didn't match their likely use, so the highway argument is irrelevant.

Arapiles

14th November 2020, 06:53 PM

To a large extent, a lot of this argument is moot - if you feel strongly that EVs are terrible then don't buy one.

Others who think differently will buy them.

Reminds me of the arguments against solar panels some years back, which became irrelevant when large numbers of average Australians decided that having solar panels made sense.

For EVs that tipping point would be price, so this may be a relevant article:

Australia’s cheapest electric car, the MG ZS EV, sold out until next year | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/900870/australias-cheapest-electric-car-the-mg-zs-ev-sold-out-until-next-year/)

Eevo

14th November 2020, 08:20 PM

To a large extent, a lot of this argument is moot - if you feel strongly that EVs are terrible then don't buy one.
the problem is some people are trying to force it upon others when its not suitiable.

scarry

14th November 2020, 08:34 PM

the problem is some people are trying to force it upon others when its not suitiable.

I don’t think they are forcing them on anyone,just suggesting to go that way,but strangely don’t seem to own one themselves.

Arapiles

14th November 2020, 09:03 PM

the problem is some people are trying to force it upon others when its not suitiable.

Someone's making you buy an EV?

Tombie

14th November 2020, 09:23 PM

I don’t think they are forcing them on anyone,just suggesting to go that way,but strangely don’t seem to own one themselves.

With a 2025 / 2030 deadline... it would seem many will be forced to go that way.

What some here are forgetting is that there are many variables in life, and often people want a vehicle that can just “get the job done” - sure they may not want a big vehicle, or as a rule so long distances, however like my Aunt, Mother and a few other members of the family are oft to do - they do like to get away on a whim, often 650-680km away (like Adelaide to Pt Lincoln).

If a person cannot afford a long distance vehicle and an EV, especially with the range to deal with such travels - what can we expect?

And WHY would we accept a technology that takes so damn long to replenish when 5 min at the pump has us good for another 400-500km?

Quick charge has proven to be detrimental to battery life, and in some manufacturers is actually limited to prevent damage. So continual runs of travel (or reps vehicles for example) will soon kill these vehicles.

What then?

The tech is moving fast, just not in unison with the supporting infrastructure tech, standards or capabilities.

W&KO

14th November 2020, 09:43 PM

I don’t think they are forcing them on anyone,just suggesting to go that way,but strangely don’t seem to own one themselves.

Yes, not many EV owners posting in the thread.

Tombie

14th November 2020, 09:47 PM

Yes, not many EV owners posting in the thread.

If Elon pulls his finger out we will own one in 2021 [emoji41]

DiscoDB

14th November 2020, 10:57 PM

With a 2025 / 2030 deadline... it would seem many will be forced to go that way.

The tech is moving fast, just not in unison with the supporting infrastructure tech, standards or capabilities.

I think Europe will move fast enough. Most cars spend more time parked up than being driven, and so it easy to imagine paid parking spots and parking at all accomodation having charging points across Europe - and they won’t need to be rapid charging either.

Different story for Australia and I can not see these same bans coming here before 2050. My guess is the Southern Hemisphere along with Asia and India will be running combustion engines long after Europe has banned the sale of new ICE cars and well past 2050.

The current and next generation of European built Land Rovers will be the last many of us on this forum will end up owning, although I note European car manufacturers are also moving into China so that could see us through to the end of the world in 2100.....[emoji48]

NavyDiver

16th November 2020, 03:33 PM

I think Europe will move fast enough. Most cars spend more time parked up than being driven, and so it easy to imagine paid parking spots and parking at all accomodation having charging points across Europe - and they won’t need to be rapid charging either.

Different story for Australia and I can not see these same bans coming here before 2050. My guess is the Southern Hemisphere along with Asia and India will be running combustion engines long after Europe has banned the sale of new ICE cars and well past 2050.

The current and next generation of European built Land Rovers will be the last many of us on this forum will end up owning, although I note European car manufacturers are also moving into China so that could see us through to the end of the world in 2100.....[emoji48]

Tassie is Moving. 100% Electric battery and or hydrogen for Government vehicles by 2030! Fast mover Tassie. The rest of us need to catch up. [biggrin]

Two links
Tasmania sets 100 per cent electric vehicle target for government fleet (https://thedriven.io/2020/11/13/tasmania-sets-100-per-cent-electric-vehicle-target-for-government-fleet/)

Tasmanian Liberal Government Wants to Transition Government Vehicle Fleet to 100% Electric Vehicles by 2030 - FuelCellsWorks (https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/tasmanian-liberal-government-wants-to-transition-government-vehicle-fleet-to-100-electric-vehicles-by-2030/)

Tombie

16th November 2020, 04:01 PM

It’s not like AU will have a choice.

Once the manufacturers decide to stop tooling up ICE that will be the end of it - or the costs will flip over.

scarry

16th November 2020, 04:09 PM

Tassie is Moving. 100% Electric battery and or hydrogen for Government vehicles by 2030! Fast mover Tassie. The rest of us need to catch up. [biggrin]

The Qld government had two, got rid of them in less than 12 months.I can't remember the reason, but I think they just didn't suit car pooling which is what they do.Differnet people driving them during the day,then a supervisor, or different supervisors, take them home at night and on weekends.

They replaced them with hybrids, which most of the small passenger vehicle fleet is made up of anyway.

Hopefully the EV or Hydrogen tech is way better by 2030.

DiscoDB

16th November 2020, 04:40 PM

It’s not like AU will have a choice.

Once the manufacturers decide to stop tooling up ICE that will be the end of it - or the costs will flip over.

Fair point - especially once Toyota stop ICE manufacturing by 2040.

May not need to be banned here but just happen by a natural shift in what you can buy.

The next 20 years will be interesting.

With the average age of cars currently over 10 years I still predict we will be running ICE engines in Australia through to at least 2050 - they just may be very expensive to run.

Will have to choose the last car I plan to buy carefully - something to worry about in 2040 I guess when we stop talking about 2020.

Tombie

16th November 2020, 05:11 PM

I imagine all the big servos will start converting over at some stage. With a heap of electric points.

Then the pumps will slowly disappear.
The holding tanks at the ports and refineries will reduce to only holding diesel for heavy transport.

Petrol prices will skyrocket.

Lost revenue from Fuel excise will be an interesting one. As there will be a need to cover infrastructure upgrades at a phenomenal rate.

Homestar

16th November 2020, 05:15 PM

scarry

16th November 2020, 05:21 PM

I imagine all the big servos will start converting over at some stage. With a heap of electric points..

They have said, only once Ev's become 15% of the vehicles on the road, then they may revisit the situation of charging points.

Fuel excise needs some tough decisions,as Ev's are dodging the charge at the moment.

Homestar

16th November 2020, 05:40 PM

They have said, only once Ev's become 15% of the vehicles on the road, then they may revisit the situation of charging points.

Fuel excise needs some tough decisions,as Ev's are dodging the charge at the moment.

Already murmurings of a Km based rego/tax, I think they keep putting it out there to test the waters with the voters. Biggest issue I see with a system like this is that it will disadvantage country people who have to drive more because of where they live - not sure how that can be solved. Maybe a flat EV rego charge equivalent to 20,000km of fuel excise at say 8LP100KM - which would be around $690.

While it would make it fairer, it’s another roadblock that would make people balk at buying an EV, but the black hole being left by falling fuel excise revenue will make the Pollies think up a way to make it back, that is for certain.

Homestar

16th November 2020, 05:52 PM

Arapiles

16th November 2020, 06:12 PM

They have said, only once Ev's become 15% of the vehicles on the road, then they may revisit the situation of charging points.

Fuel excise needs some tough decisions,as Ev's are dodging the charge at the moment.

EVs are "dodging" fuel excise in the same way that people who don't smoke are "dodging" tobacco excise.

Road maintenance comes out of general revenue, not fuel excise.

Arapiles

16th November 2020, 06:29 PM

Already murmurings of a Km based rego/tax, I think they keep putting it out there to test the waters with the voters. Biggest issue I see with a system like this is that it will disadvantage country people who have to drive more because of where they live - not sure how that can be solved. Maybe a flat EV rego charge equivalent to 20,000km of fuel excise at say 8LP100KM - which would be around $690.

While it would make it fairer, it’s another roadblock that would make people balk at buying an EV, but the black hole being left by falling fuel excise revenue will make the Pollies think up a way to make it back, that is for certain.

It's not that big an issue and it's not imminent - the $19b in fuel excise isn't going to disappear tomorrow.

Simon Holmes a Court makes some good points in this article:

The big problem with electric vehicles that no politician wants to deal with (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2019/10/31/electric-vehicles-fuel-excise/)

And, you'll notice from this that alcohol provides about the same excise value as petrol:

Excise and fuel schemes | Australian Taxation Office (https://www.ato.gov.au/About-ATO/Research-and-statistics/In-detail/Taxation-statistics/Taxation-statistics-2017-18/?page=19#ExciseAndFuelSchemesDetailedTables)

https://www.ato.gov.au/uploadedImages/Content/CR/Images/TaxStats/2017-18/DE-16361-Taxation-statistics-2017-18_graph18.png
So, the answer's pretty clear - beer drinkers are going to have to shoulder more of the burden.

DiscoDB

16th November 2020, 06:49 PM

Tassie is Moving. 100% Electric battery and or hydrogen for Government vehicles by 2030! Fast mover Tassie. The rest of us need to catch up. [biggrin]

Two links
Tasmania sets 100 per cent electric vehicle target for government fleet (https://thedriven.io/2020/11/13/tasmania-sets-100-per-cent-electric-vehicle-target-for-government-fleet/)

Tasmanian Liberal Government Wants to Transition Government Vehicle Fleet to 100% Electric Vehicles by 2030 - FuelCellsWorks (https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/tasmanian-liberal-government-wants-to-transition-government-vehicle-fleet-to-100-electric-vehicles-by-2030/)

I guess they would be hard pressed to suffer from range anxiety in Tasmania. Tasmania actually has a strong case to take the lead on this.

Old Farang

16th November 2020, 06:50 PM

They have said, only once Ev's become 15% of the vehicles on the road, then they may revisit the situation of charging points.

Fuel excise needs some tough decisions,as Ev's are dodging the charge at the moment.

Well the excise may be one thing, but what I want to know is what fuel is going to be used in all the aircraft presently grounded?
Or are they all going to parked at Alice Springs and later stripped and melted down to make EV cars?

And that is just the ones that burn kero. What about GA that runs on petrol? I don't think that my old R22 helicopter can be converted to electric!

Homestar

16th November 2020, 06:56 PM

Well the excise may be one thing, but what I want to know is what fuel is going to be used in all the aircraft presently grounded?
Or are they all going to parked at Alice Springs and later stripped and melted down to make EV cars?

And that is just the ones that burn kero. What about GA that runs on petrol? I don't think that my old R22 helicopter can be converted to electric!

Sure it can! You’ll only be able to take off, hover for a minute, and then land, but it would fly. 😇

NavyDiver

16th November 2020, 09:35 PM

By the time I need to buy a car an EV will probably do as I’ll be retired by then. What the company I work for give me in the next 15 years will all be ICE given the KM I have to do - I need a range of 600KM with gear in the back of the Ute or around 500KM when towing 2000Kg. Can’t see an EV meeting those requirements any time soon and even if they do, how would I charge it given it is parked up to 50 meters from the house every night on the street and I sure as **** aren’t paying to charge it or even use my infrastructure for work purposes. There’s some big issues need solving. On street parking is a huge issue given that lots of people would park at least one of their vehicles on the street each night and a lot of inner city folks don’t even have a driveway or can park near their house.

With solid battery's likely to give you twice the range and half the weight of existing Lithium ion batteries I suspect sub two years and we all may change our minds. VW has tipped more than 300million in to a company with solid state tech, Bill gates also tossed a bucket load at over the last ten years. [biggrin]

Rivian 450km is followed with a A 400-mile (640km) battery pack for the R1T will be available in January 2022 (https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/13/21563949/rivian-electric-truck-suv-price-r1t-r1s-hands-free). Change the battery tech in the Revian from Lithium ion to the solid state batteries and range is possibly closer to 1000km. Add in the solid state tech does not have the charging ROAD BLOCKS of the current lithium ion and likely charge times of sub 15 minutes. I am keener on hydrogen refilling times but must admit the samsung and QuantumScape tech almost makes hydrogen unnecessary for almost all smaller trucks and vehicles. Total elimination of the fire risk from Lithium Ion as a big plus in my thoughts make that tech safer than both ICE and Lithium ion tech [thumbsupbig] Suspect Toyota and others are chasing this hard as well. Added a chat in a video about their race as well.

It is always almost here of course[biggrin] In a few weeks I think QuantumScape might make me smile a bit more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAFk-CebHWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76zkKKspWP4

Homestar

17th November 2020, 06:33 AM

With solid battery's likely to give you twice the range and half the weight of existing Lithium ion batteries I suspect sub two years and we all may change our minds. VW has tipped more than 300million in to a company with solid state tech, Bill gates also tossed a bucket load at over the last ten years. [biggrin]

Rivian 450km is followed with a A 400-mile (640km) battery pack for the R1T will be available in January 2022 (https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/13/21563949/rivian-electric-truck-suv-price-r1t-r1s-hands-free). Change the battery tech in the Revian from Lithium ion to the solid state batteries and range is possibly closer to 1000km. Add in the solid state tech does not have the charging ROAD BLOCKS of the current lithium ion and likely charge times of sub 15 minutes. I am keener on hydrogen refilling times but must admit the samsung and QuantumScape tech almost makes hydrogen unnecessary for almost all smaller trucks and vehicles. Total elimination of the fire risk from Lithium Ion as a big plus in my thoughts make that tech safer than both ICE and Lithium ion tech [thumbsupbig] Suspect Toyota and others are chasing this hard as well. Added a chat in a video about their race as well.

It is always almost here of course[biggrin] In a few weeks I think QuantumScape might make me smile a bit more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAFk-CebHWA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76zkKKspWP4

It's not my mind to change, but my companies - they won't spend more than they need to on a vehicle, so they aren't going to go drop 2 or 3 times the money on an EV for me unfortunately.

And charge time makes no difference to a work vehicle for me as I can't run a lead to it at home so not sure how I could charge it and a 15 minute charge on a battery bank that big would require a very large mains supply so even service stations and car parks aren't going to put in many chargers that draw 100's of amps from the mains. Infrastructure for the vehicles is still one of the biggest hurdles IMO, but I’m pretty sure an EV would make sense as a main run around once we are retired.

NavyDiver

17th November 2020, 12:22 PM

It's not my mind to change, but my companies - they won't spend more than they need to on a vehicle, so they aren't going to go drop 2 or 3 times the money on an EV for me unfortunately.

And charge time makes no difference to a work vehicle for me as I can't run a lead to it at home so not sure how I could charge it and a 15 minute charge on a battery bank that big would require a very large mains supply so even service stations and car parks aren't going to put in many chargers that draw 100's of amps from the mains. Infrastructure for the vehicles is still one of the biggest hurdles IMO, but I’m pretty sure an EV would make sense as a main run around once we are retired.

Fully agree with your company on spending and costs. The issue is cost. With Ford advertising running cost 40% lower for its EV van (https://www.theage.com.au/business/ford-reveals-electric-transit-van-thats-40pc-cheaper-to-maintain-20201113-h1s6y5.html) I suspect a lot of business will take notice very quickly. Fuel and maintenance cost savings are a game changer and will be the main reason for changes to EV or FCEV for larger longer range and always ready needs. Japan today just might give a little more on the Hydrogen Side.

PhilipA

17th November 2020, 07:12 PM

This thread is starting to remind me of the "Peak Oil" thread back in was it 2007?

Petrol was going to be over $2 per litre by now.

Inflation corrected is it under $1 at present.

As Mark Twain said, it is difficult to make predictions, particularly about the future. ... The first is President Eisenhower's truistic observation that “the future lies before us”; the second has been variously attributed to Mark Twain and Yogi Berra: “It is dangerous to make forecasts, especially about the future.”

Regards PhilipA

DiscoMick

17th November 2020, 10:24 PM

Fuel excise isn't difficult. They will just put a levy on Chargefox accounts.

Tombie

18th November 2020, 07:36 AM

Fuel excise isn't difficult. They will just put a levy on Chargefox accounts.

That’s still a big loss based on those who can charge at home.

NavyDiver

18th November 2020, 08:47 AM

That’s still a big loss based on those who can charge at home.

That's ME[biggrin] Looking at doubling my PV at work. Might move the work one to home dobling up here for a EV likely needed inside a year now as my 2005 Lexus is looking shaky now.

Who has or has driven in a truck tractor or mining style beast powered by a Cummings engine? They are almost slow movers in the area[biggrin]

Cummins powers on with hydrogen technology strategy – Prime Mover Magazine (https://www.primemovermag.com.au/cummins-powers-on-with-hydrogen-technology-strategy/)

NavyDiver

19th November 2020, 01:25 PM

IKEA through distributors: ANC, KINGS transport and All Purpose (distributors)

IKEA’s global commitment to fully electric vehicle delivery fleets by 2025 has required their Australian distributors to procure electric vehicles for their deliveries.

Fremantle, Western Australia and Hobson’s Bay, Victoria via Cleanaway- Using SEA Electric garbage trucks (https://www.sea-electric.com/products-old/refuse-ev/)

Still a low % of course. Growth rate in Australia is picking up fast and accelerating "charging stations growing by 40% since July 2019"

https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/EVC-State-of-EVs-2020-report.pdf

(https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/EVC-State-of-EVs-2020-report.pdf)The announcement that the UK is to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030, a full decade earlier than planned, has prompted hundreds of questions from anxious drivers. I’m going to try to answer some of the main ones we’ve had sent in to the BBC. (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54989167)[wink11]

Then Landrover kicks in » Plans to manufacture a range of new electrified vehicles at its manufacturing plant in Castle Bromwich, UK. » Commitment to offer customers electrified options for all new Jaguar and Land Rover models from 2020. » EV investment $2.34billion

Tombie

19th November 2020, 03:04 PM

That's ME[biggrin] Looking at doubling my PV at work. Might move the work one to home dobling up here for a EV likely needed inside a year now as my 2005 Lexus is looking shaky now.

Who has or has driven in a truck tractor or mining style beast powered by a Cummings engine? They are almost slow movers in the area[biggrin]

Cummins powers on with hydrogen technology strategy – Prime Mover Magazine (https://www.primemovermag.com.au/cummins-powers-on-with-hydrogen-technology-strategy/)

300t of Cummins powered Double
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201119/f44ad6378d6a56c6ef1ffb1e5cde1664.jpg

BradC

19th November 2020, 03:12 PM

Then Landrover kicks in » Plans to manufacture a range of new electrified vehicles at its manufacturing plant in Castle Bromwich, UK. » Commitment to offer customers electrified options for all new Jaguar and Land Rover models from 2020. » EV investment $2.34billion

I could own the T-shirt now :
Landrover: Turning drivers into electronic technicians for the last 17 years.

Who knows how badly they can bollox up reliability an all-electric drive train.

gavinwibrow

19th November 2020, 07:38 PM

300t of Cummins powered Double
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201119/f44ad6378d6a56c6ef1ffb1e5cde1664.jpg

And no need to tell you they are babies compared to some of the NW 4 dumper versions seen on our last trip up

Tombie

19th November 2020, 08:25 PM

And no need to tell you they are babies compared to some of the NW 4 dumper versions seen on our last trip up

Indeed...

When we had them on site initially we had the power train unit and 5 wagons. Was just too much for the haul route.

There’s some seriously fun gear out there... [emoji41]

Tombie

19th November 2020, 08:27 PM

I could own the T-shirt now :
Landrover: Turning drivers into electronic technicians for the last 17 years.

Who knows how badly they can bollox up reliability an all-electric drive train.

I always thought a lot of the shirts should have read...

Landrover Drivers: thinking they’re mechanics but most are ham fisted tight arses

Half the issues with old LRs was hack home mechanics too tight or inexperienced to do a job correctly.

scarry

19th November 2020, 08:44 PM

I always thought a lot of the shirts should have read...

Landrover Drivers: thinking they’re mechanics but most are ham fisted tight arses

Half the issues with old LRs was hack home mechanics too tight or inexperienced to do a job correctly.

That is true, but if they didn't have silly issues, they wouldn't need to be fiddled with, and half fixed by DIYer's.

Although some enjoy doing this, and it keeps them off the streets[thumbsupbig]

That is, the vehicles, and the DIYers[bighmmm][biggrin]

Tombie

19th November 2020, 09:03 PM

In the teams I mech for on their V6 Sprintcars we call it “Leaking Talent”.

I’ve seen examples of work on old LRs where there are no leaks, drips etc. as it should be.

I personally cringe when I hear them say “It’s a Landrover; it’s supposed to leak”

BradC

19th November 2020, 10:56 PM

I always thought a lot of the shirts should have read...

Landrover Drivers: thinking they’re mechanics but most are ham fisted tight arses

Half the issues with old LRs was hack home mechanics too tight or inexperienced to do a job correctly.

And the other half is caused by well paid career "mechanics" who should know better (both dealer and independent).

JDNSW

20th November 2020, 05:09 AM

Another aspect of EVs 403 Forbidden (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/11/after-12523-replacements-feds-investigate-tesla-media-control-unit-failures/https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/11/after-12523-replacements-feds-investigate-tesla-media-control-unit-failures/)

To be fair, this is likely to be an issue with current fossil fuel vehicles as well.

To summarise for those less technical, on some Tesla cars a key part in the electronic hardware has limited life - the memory module that remembers what happened to the vehicle can only be written to a limited number of times. For typical use, this is around twelve years. Rectifying the problem means replacing a complete, hard to get at, circuit board. By this age it is unlikely that the manufacturer will have much interest in supplying parts. (Although this article is about Tesla, there are likely to be similar issues with any manufacturer, and later Teslas use a memory module with a much longer life.)

This sort of thing tells against the meme that electronic or electrical parts are inherently more reliable and long lasting than mechanical parts.

NavyDiver

20th November 2020, 08:34 AM

Some days it is wow[thumbsupbig]GM ups spending on EVs and autonomous cars by 35% to $27 billion GM to accelerate EV plans, plans to spend up to $27 billion (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/gm-accelerating-ev-plans-with-additional-7-billion-announces-new-pickup.html)

The increase in investment will support GM’s plans to release 30 new EVs globally by 2025, including more than 20 for North America.
GM said it has moved up the release of 12 EVs, including pickups for its Chevrolet and GMC brands.

We already know they are invested in a Hydrogen FCEV via Nikola. BEV of FCEV options growing daily.

Add in this Gem "Our Ultium Batteries and Platform: Ultium represents a milestone achievement in electrification, with battery pack costs nearly 40 percent lower than those in the Chevrolet Bolt EV. GM projects that second generation Ultium packs will cost nearly 60 percent less than the batteries used today. Its versatile platform provides the building blocks for everything from mass market to high performance vehicles – all from a single, common cell in most markets and set of interchangeable propulsion components. Ultium battery cells will be manufactured in Lordstown, Ohio as part of our joint venture with LG Chem."

They noted the cost will be similar to current ICE petrol and diesel[biggrin]

Old Farang

20th November 2020, 02:29 PM

Switch to electric vehicles could 'end oil era': analysis

Switch to electric vehicles could 'end oil era': analysis (https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/2022847/switch-to-electric-vehicles-could-end-oil-era-analysis)

PARIS: Emerging markets switching from petrol and diesel engines to electric vehicles (EVs) could save $250 billion annually and slash expected growth in global oil demand by as much as 70%, an industry analysis showed Friday.

Tombie

20th November 2020, 03:45 PM

And no need to tell you they are babies compared to some of the NW 4 dumper versions seen on our last trip up

Not sure if you have an account. For those that do, it’s a video of those Powertrains

Login • Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/CHtVhPiFRT5/?igshid=1j6gwpflam7kf)

gavinwibrow

20th November 2020, 06:25 PM

Not sure if you have an account. For those that do, it’s a video of those Powertrains

Login • Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/CHtVhPiFRT5/?igshid=1j6gwpflam7kf)

Thanks for the thought Mike, but like a few others on here I refuse to use facebook etc, and no, yes I have no instagram a/c. It can actually be delicious being IT ignorant/technically illiterate.

DiscoDB

20th November 2020, 06:27 PM

Thanks for the thought Mike, but like a few others on here I refuse to use facebook etc, and no, yes I have no instagram a/c. It can actually be delicious being IT ignorant/technically illiterate.

Can also watch here:

Dual Powered Road Trains (DPRTs) - YouTube (https://bit.ly/3k6DtPX)

Tombie

20th November 2020, 06:28 PM

Thanks for the thought Mike, but like a few others on here I refuse to use facebook etc, and no, yes I have no instagram a/c. It can actually be delicious being IT ignorant/technically illiterate.

That it can.... if often suspend my accounts for a week/month or longer just to remove myself from it for a while.

DiscoMick

21st November 2020, 05:18 PM

I was reading about Nissan's hybrid system which will soon be seen here and it's different to most.
The vehicle only runs on electric motors powered by batteries. There is a petrol motor, but it never powers the wheels. Instead it acts like a generator and switches on as necessary to charge the batteries.
Nissan claims benefits including simplicity compared with most hybrids.
Will be interesting to see how it goes.

Why e-Power will be a game-charger for Nissan - Car News | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/why-e-power-will-be-a-game-charger-for-nissan-79541)

goingbush

21st November 2020, 05:30 PM

101RRS

21st November 2020, 09:08 PM

Homestar

24th November 2020, 07:15 PM

Looks like Vic is the first to jump. Proposing an annual levy on EV’s - around $200 a year by the sounds of it.

I’m sure they won’t be the last.

scarry

1st December 2020, 06:22 PM

Looks like Vic is the first to jump. Proposing an annual levy on EV’s - around $200 a year by the sounds of it.

I’m sure they won’t be the last.

We knew that was coming,they dont want to miss out on anything.

"Victoria's tax, announced in last week's state budget, proposes to charge 2.5 cents per kilometre driven by electric and other low-emissions vehicles and 2 cents per km for plug-in hybrid electric cars. That means a pure electric vehicle traveling an average of 15,000km a year will pay $375 a year."

No doubt it will creep up.

Its still quite a lot less than fuel excise for similar K's,for ICE LV's.

101RRS

7th December 2020, 02:39 PM

One of the Youtube channels I have subscribed to is Harry's Garage - tests a lot of tasty vehicles but from time to time has some almost philosophical discussions on other issues related to classical cars.

This is his latest video where he discussed possible issues related to the banning of Internal Combustion Engines in new vehicles in the UK from 2030 and I think in the EU from 2025. Also covers points related to the real environmental cost of EV vehicles, the environmental cost of the continued use of classic old vehicles after that date and impact of exemptions. Even though you buy green energy, is it really green and how the car makers will deal with the rest of the world where the EU rules do not apply.

Will the 2030 ban & the dash to electric cars spell the end for classics in UK? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CUA2imRYRM)

An earlier video related to EVs 2020 new car market is changing & moving to electric cars, I explain why. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVFJUxeGFAE)

The Ups and Downs of running and EV Jaguar i-Pace real-world review. The ups & downs of running an electric car.. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEyfCcAbtKU)

Why would you buy a RRS PHEV with such a short range Range Rover P400e PHEV review. Are hybrid cars better than pure electric in the real world? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-9mDgR7bk8&t=1s)

NavyDiver

7th December 2020, 09:47 PM

101RRS

7th December 2020, 10:19 PM

While everyone bangs on about EV range, in reality it is less important than charging time. A ICE runs low on fuel and you pull into a garage and 5 minutes later you are off fully "charged". A EV runs low on juice and you pull into a charge point (if there is not a queue) and wait and wait and wait and wait - Tesla have the best charging system but even then you have to wait a long time - also what if you live in an inner city house that only has on street parking - where to you charge when home.

No - it is time to look at battery technology and charging technology so that an EV can receive a full charge in a few minutes or develop systems that can swap out discharged batteries for charge ones in a few minutes at a EV service station.

Yes EVs are good for some - would be OK where I live to commute around town but not good if I want to drive interstate - range not the issue, but charging times, charging points are.

scarry

8th December 2020, 06:55 AM

I think this fact may show why EV will kill ICE for most cars soon

"Having fallen 82 per cent over the past eight years, the average cost of a lithium-ion battery is expected to decline further to US$100 per kWh by 2023 and to as low as US$73 by 2030, according to IHS Markit. The average price in two years, at US$100 per kWh, will be a critical milestone in making unsubsidized electric vehicles cost-competitive with oil guzzlers, Castilloux said"

Given I paid about 1k per kWh for two 10kWh flow batteries that cost reduction looks rather significant [biggrin] ( Full Building UPS set up at work for work) Range wise this shows some interesting changes

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/d8/images/methode/2020/10/26/1e2137d2-150a-11eb-9ff1-f14650b70f66_972x_134740.jpg

Recharge times are a issue at many locations in Australia still.

The Cost reductions in Battery costs in this graph really ram it home
https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/d8/images/methode/2020/10/26/1db13748-150a-11eb-9ff1-f14650b70f66_972x_134740.jpg

Looking at the graph,it is MAX RANGE.

So in real driving conditions,AC on,loaded,etc,and leaving some range to get to a charging station, probably around half to 2/3 what the MAX Range is, no doubt?

As 101RRS says,the real issue is charging times, finding a charging station, and one that hasn't got a que of vehicles waiting to charge.

People haven't got time to sit around for hours waiting to charge a vehicle.

Sure some may be able to charge one overnight, at home, if they have the relevant solar set up and batteries, and dont do high mileage during the day.

Seems FORD has an EV van, range is listed at 200KM.Once loaded, driven as van drivers do, i bet the range is nowhere near 200KM,totally useless for a commercial vehicle no doubt.

NavyDiver

8th December 2020, 09:43 AM

Looking at the graph,it is MAX RANGE.

So in real driving conditions,AC on,loaded,etc,and leaving some range to get to a charging station, probably around half to 2/3 what the MAX Range is, no doubt?

As 101RRS says,the real issue is charging times, finding a charging station, and one that hasn't got a que of vehicles waiting to charge.

People haven't got time to sit around for hours waiting to charge a vehicle.

Sure some may be able to charge one overnight, at home, if they have the relevant solar set up and batteries, and dont do high mileage during the day.

Seems FORD has an EV van, range is listed at 200KM.Once loaded, driven as van drivers do, i bet the range is nowhere near 200KM,totally useless for a commercial vehicle no doubt.

Fully agree so won't take your "bet" :) . Add a heavy trailer, load up the roof rack or add the boat to my D3 and range is significantly shorter- Ditto of any energy option we know of.

The battery tech energy density/cost reductions was why I was looking. Mainly interested in Solid state as that will do four things. No fire risk, Massively increase charge rates, decrees batteries size by significantly increasing energy density and reduce weights due to the prior point. Not suggesting currently used tech is perfect just like my two 10kWh flow batteries. Mine are great when the grid goes off for me which happily makes me forget or not at all concerned with the price I paid for them years ago. Current state of play with batteries is changing rapidly. Add Some of the fuel Cell which when available at a reasonable price /size/running cost/efficiency may make the entire yarn change even faster than it is.

Homestar

8th December 2020, 10:49 AM

I think this fact may show why EV will kill ICE for most cars soon

"Having fallen 82 per cent over the past eight years, the average cost of a lithium-ion battery is expected to decline further to US$100 per kWh by 2023 and to as low as US$73 by 2030, according to IHS Markit. The average price in two years, at US$100 per kWh, will be a critical milestone in making unsubsidized electric vehicles cost-competitive with oil guzzlers, Castilloux said"

Given I paid about 1k per kWh for two 10kWh flow batteries that cost reduction looks rather significant [biggrin] ( Full Building UPS set up at work for work) Range wise this shows some interesting changes

https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/d8/images/methode/2020/10/26/1e2137d2-150a-11eb-9ff1-f14650b70f66_972x_134740.jpg

Recharge times are a issue at many locations in Australia still.

The Cost reductions in Battery costs in this graph really ram it home
https://cdn.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/d8/images/methode/2020/10/26/1db13748-150a-11eb-9ff1-f14650b70f66_972x_134740.jpg

If the graph is right and battery packs have come down so much in price, then why are they still so bloody expensive? The Nissan leaf should be half the price it is now based on what it cost a few years back and what the graph shows prices at, so when are they going to become affordable enough for joe public? After the vehicles range, that's my next biggest concern. All this hype about how they will take over from ICE but they won't when they cost twice as much - I haven't seen the price of any EV come down, but happy to be proven wrong. The only EV's I've looked at are so far out of my price range it isn't funny and I'm prepared to pay around $65K next year for a vehicle, so it's not like I'm cheaping out. If there's anything in my price range that can tow 2000Kg 300Kg between charges and without a trailer get around 500KM (not on paper but in the real world) it might almost do me. Think it will be many years before an EV comes close to what I can afford with those specs. :(

ramblingboy42

8th December 2020, 11:33 AM

Tombie

8th December 2020, 05:11 PM

Problem then becomes Road mass....
These EVs are so damn heavy the roads will be subject to more wear.

This isn’t going to be as simple as it appears at face value.

Homestar

8th December 2020, 05:40 PM

Right with you there.

Unfortunately we are only getting the European EVs plus Tesla .

Not many people in Europe would even consider getting in their vehicle for a same day 5-800km turnaround trip like many of us here do.

It will not even be considered by manufacturers in their fwd planning.

The vehicle we want can be built but not by the Europeans......look how much Land Rover REALLY care about Australian market.

I think Ford/Chev should take a deep breath and dive in here.....between us and them there really is a market.....next couple of years is going to see an onset of American iron into Australia , because they basically have what we want.

We are going to be cheering for them in Supercars , we'll be buying them during the week.

They have an opportunity here to build the Australian electric vehicle.

First in best dressed.

I think you’re being optimistic regarding the supercars - I see they’ve cut next years series back to 12 events - Sandown and Phillip Island gone from the list - 2 of the best IMO. Leaving the F1 (and that isn’t certain they’ll be running a support program yet) and Winton here in Vic. So not only can I not watch them on telly any more but I can’t go see them much either - great way to maintain a fan base...

scarry

8th December 2020, 06:55 PM

Problem then becomes Road mass....
These EVs are so damn heavy the roads will be subject to more wear.

This isn’t going to be as simple as it appears at face value.

They are also very hard on tyres, which is another issue.

Eevo

8th December 2020, 09:47 PM

They are also very hard on tyres, which is another issue.
because of weight or something else?

scarry

9th December 2020, 06:16 AM

because of weight or something else?

Weight,front wheel drive and steer,with heaps of torque and speed off the mark,I think is the issue.

Homestar

9th December 2020, 06:24 AM

If they’re so heavy they create extra wear on the roads then it sounds like they should be registered as a truck - will notify Vicroads... 🤣

Tombie

9th December 2020, 07:19 AM

If they’re so heavy they create extra wear on the roads then it sounds like they should be registered as a truck - will notify Vicroads... [emoji1787]

By comparison they are significantly heavier.
Each single unit isn’t too bad, combined it all adds up.

JDNSW

9th December 2020, 09:08 AM

I seem to remember reading that since the amount of damage goes up roughly as the square of the mass, almost all wear on most roads is not from anything you can legally drive on a car licence, and not even much from MR vehicles. So I doubt road damage is a serious problem. But I don't know about tyre wear, although tyre size, suspension and steering geometry, maintenance (tyre pressures) and driving habits would almost certainly have more effect.

scarry

9th December 2020, 09:13 AM

If they’re so heavy they create extra wear on the roads then it sounds like they should be registered as a truck - will notify Vicroads... 🤣

And pay commercial vehicle Tolls🙈🤣

grey_ghost

21st December 2020, 01:33 PM

NavyDiver

23rd December 2020, 07:45 AM

Hi All,

Some interesting reading here...

Head of Toyota slams rush to EVs (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/akio-toyoda-critical-of-evs)

"The more EVs we build, the worse carbon dioxide gets…When politicians are out there saying, ‘Let’s get rid of all cars using gasoline,’ do they understand this?” said Toyota (https://www.whichcar.com.au/toyota) CEO Akio Toyoda in his role as chairman..."

"He suggested, too, that Japan would run out of electricity in summer months if all cars were EVs, that it would cost upwards of A$500 billion to build sufficient EV infrastructure, and that because Japan’s energy is produced with natural gas and coal, the effect on the environment would still be negative."

"Underneath, however, it points to a car industry that’s trapped between two fronts; keeping the lights on in the face of declining demand and answering to the increasingly strident calls of governments around the planet to address the issue of climate change."

Like I said - some interesting reading.

Quatumscape backed by bill gates 300million several years ago. I assume he has made hundreds of billions from it.. They are yet to make a Solid state battery!!!
Microvast about to be another unicorn perhaps? (it might be a dog and I am not an investment advisers back side! 2017 news" Microvast will reach 4 GWh of production capacity by the end of 2017 and is expanding its manufacturing facility to provide 11 GWh of additional capacity. To date, the company has supplied more than 18,000 hybrid and fully electric buses with battery systems, operating in more than 150 cities across six countries with over one billion miles traveled."

Toyota is releasing Hydrogen and EV at the oympics if they go ahead and has build a billion$ ev specific plant in Japan. Fully agree with removing carbon from Electricity Generation. This morning I heard of the massive increase in people buying roof top Solar PV here in Vic. My thoughts is many of us will self charge not grid charge anyway.
In March Toyota "BEIJING – Toyota Motor Corp. plans to build an electric vehicle plant in Tianjin, China, according to a document from local authorities.
Tianjin FAW Toyota Motor Co., the automaker’s local joint venture, plans to spend 8.5 billion yuan (¥131 billion) to build a plant with an annual production capacity of 200,000 units in the city’s Binhai New Area, according to the document.

"

Tombie

23rd December 2020, 09:00 AM

NavyDiver

23rd December 2020, 11:13 AM

A significant number of major advances made by man in the last 300 years have often been reviewed later only to find significant flaws in the logic.

One may wonder if in 50-100 years we will look at our current trajectory and feel the same.

Our latest plans still are intent on extracting and processing enormous quantities of non renewable minerals to create systems we are heralding as sustainable. All the while covering the landscape with significant areas of hardware.

Time will judge it’s success.

Fully agree Tombie. "145 years after Jules Verne dreamed up a hydrogen future, it has arrived (https://www.chiefscientist.gov.au/news-and-media/145-years-after-jules-verne-dreamed-hydrogen-future-it-has-arrived)" "In his book The Mysterious Island, Verne wrote of a world where “water will one day be employed as fuel, that hydrogen and oxygen which constitute it, used singly or together, will furnish an inexhaustible source of heat and light, of an intensity of which coal is not capable”."

My hope is we have several options not rules. I'd have to have my head in the sand to ignore changes we can all see already. Not paranoid happily. When I get my Disco back its still being used until a suitable option is ready.

scarry

23rd December 2020, 05:59 PM

This is interesting.

Toyota plans revolutionary solid state battery for 2021 (https://thedriven.io/2020/12/14/toyota-plans-revolutionary-solid-state-battery-for-2021/)

Arapiles

18th January 2021, 05:28 PM

I rented a house at Sandy Point (Vic) last week and I saw more Teslas in one place than I've ever seen before - mostly Xs but a few Ss too.

The other vehicle that seemed to be in every driveway was the Discovery 4 ....

Eevo

18th January 2021, 07:43 PM

The other vehicle that seemed to be in every driveway was the Discovery 4 ....

backup for when the tesla breaks down

NavyDiver

20th January 2021, 08:16 AM

backup for when the tesla breaks down

The ICE car industry is breaking faster in many places Eevo Every one ran away from OZ[bawl]

"If governments create situations that destroy the business model, we stop investing of course", said Mr Tavares.
"If we are told that in 2030 internal combustion engines cannot be sold in the UK - which we respect as a decision from the country - then are not going to invest in internal combustion engines any more. Because that makes no sense", he added.

[B]The head of Vauxhall's parent company has warned that it will no longer invest in pure diesel or petrol cars at its Ellesmere Port plant

Vauxhall: Future of Ellesmere Port hangs in the balance - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55709115)
I appreciate they are fishing for CASH from the UK gov to change and keep the 1000 odd employees[bigwhistle]

PhilipA

20th January 2021, 02:04 PM

Vauxhall is just becoming a subsidiary/member company of Stellantis.

Stellantis N.V. ("of (he/it that) brightens with stars";[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-5) from the Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) verb stello)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-Fox-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-7) is a Dutch-based multinational automotive manufacturing corporation resulting from the merger of French automaker Groupe PSA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupe_PSA) and Italian-American automaker Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Chrysler_Automobiles), following completion of a 50-50 merger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mergers_and_acquisitions) agreement.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-Fox-6) Registered in the Netherlands, the group includes 14 brands: Abarth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abarth), Alfa Romeo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo), Chrysler (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler), Citroën (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn), Dodge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge), DS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DS_Automobiles), Fiat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat), Jeep (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeep), Lancia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancia), Maserati (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maserati), Opel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel), Peugeot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot), Ram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Trucks) and Vauxhall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vauxhall_Motors). The name Stellantis is exclusively in use as a corporate brand, while its brands' names and logos remain unchanged.[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-Fox-6)
The company has 400,000 employees, a presence in more than 130 countries with manufacturing facilities in 30 countries.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-8) The group plans to have 39 electrified vehicles available by the end of 2021.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellantis#cite_note-9)

What a disaster waiting to happen.
I doubt that the Vauxhall brand will last longer than a couple of years
As Cadogan points out the French Government is a shareholder so French plants are probably safe.
Regards PhilipA

scarry

20th January 2021, 05:07 PM

Others are pointing out that there will be no where near enough power to charge all these EV's,if this happens.

And much of the needed power will have to come from fossil fuels.

Times are definitely getting very difficult for vehicle manufacturers.

Homestar

20th January 2021, 07:19 PM

Vauxhall is just becoming a subsidiary/member company of Stellantis.

What a disaster waiting to happen.
I doubt that the Vauxhall brand will last longer than a couple of years
As Cadogan points out the French Government is a shareholder so French plants are probably safe.
Regards PhilipA[/SUP][/FONT][/COLOR]

Well at least that’s most of the crap brands all piled in together now - makes them easier to avoid. [emoji56]

NavyDiver

20th January 2021, 08:59 PM

This was interesting. Honda just did a JV with these guys
this FC runs on natural gas, hydrogen or bio gas makes options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZT56v0ox2w&feature=emb_logo

A few weeks ago they did an item which grabbed my attention with "Ceres and Bosch scale up to mass production 8 December 2020"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WE-HHGBX2U&feature=emb_logo

The scale of Boschs investment and now Honda make me wonder if this might be one to watch closely.

Have to add Bosch is not perfect as it did back ( and continues to) Nikola with a flashback to 25 August 2019 before NKA sort of imploded.

https://www.bosch.com/stories/hydrogen-trucks/

PhilipA

21st January 2021, 12:55 PM

I just came across this in WUWT . I haven't quoted the whole article just the section relating to EVs.

It seems that the German grid is so unstable now that they are on the edge of blackouts.

Cutting off e-vehicle battery chargers and industry
To deal with the power grid problems, Germany’s Economics Minister Peter Altmaier presented a draft law that would allow electric utilities “to temporarily cut off charging power for e-cars when there is once again too little electricity available”, an idea known as “peak smoothing”.
“Shutdowns due to power shortages have been practiced for some time. Aluminum smelters, for example, have to put up with having their power cut off for limited periods of time,” reports Tichys Einblick (https://www.tichyseinblick.de/daili-es-sentials/altmaier-will-stromverbrauch-rationieren/?fbclid=IwAR0P_oDVyZrZXPnazMHcorMQBv7ix6z9-JxqB-X1YtbREKqQJXQS0NX0-u4). “These, like refrigerated storage facilities, consume great amounts. It’s a dangerous game because after three hours the molten metal has solidified and the factory is ruined.”
Situation now “too critical”
The situation in the German power grid has deteriorated so much that Tichys Einblick also comments: “The situation in the power grids has become too critical. The only thing that helps are abstruse ideas like: ‘You are not allowed to refuel your car from 10 a.m. to 8 p.m. every day!’”

A law that would allow for “peak smoothing” has been demanded by power utilities for some time now as they struggle to keep the increasingly wind and solar powered grid from careening out of control and into blackness. In other words: targeted blackouts.
And as Tichy Einblick mentions, the increasing number of cars on the market will only serve to cause more extreme power demand peaks. Currently Germany is set to make a major push into electric mobility this year.

Ah the future .
Regards PhilipA

scarry

21st January 2021, 03:41 PM

I just came across this in WUWT . I haven't quoted the whole article just the section relating to EVs.

It seems that the German grid is so unstable now that they are on the edge of blackouts.

Ah the future .
Regards PhilipA

It will happen all over the world.

It’s politicians beating their chests again scrambling for votes,saying ICE’s are going to be gone by some date.
What it does show is they have no idea of the reality of the situation.

Japan has the same issue with its power,and trying to handle EV’s.

It will happen here,guaranteed,even a hot day here cause issues for the power grid,mainly due to the high load from AC units and to a lesser amount,refrigeration,etc.
Just imagine if we added hundreds of thousands of EV’s to the load.

NavyDiver

21st January 2021, 09:58 PM

I just came across this in WUWT . I haven't quoted the whole article just the section relating to EVs.

It seems that the German grid is so unstable now that they are on the edge of blackouts.

Ah the future .
Regards PhilipA
Odd I thought the Germans are pretty good at that. They claim to be (https://www.dw.com/en/will-millions-of-electric-vehicles-disrupt-germanys-power-grid/a-50258980)!

The UK ""There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,” he explains. “The growth in renewable energy means this is not static and smart metering will make this more efficient. For example, the growth in wind power from the extra offshore wind farms being developed will adequately meet the future demand for electrifying transport – an extra 100 terrawatt hours from our current 300 terrawatt hours consume.
There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily. Link (https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars)

"Preparations have been underway for a while, as we’ve been discussing how best we can work towards the green transport changeover with government, electricity distribution companies, who transport the energy from the grid to homes and businesses, service station operators and charge point providers for over two years.""

Australia "These concerns are not completely unfounded. Modelling (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6815764) and research (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1474667016428545) at the University of Melbourne, conducted as part of a project led by Professor Iven Mareels, has shown that in Victoria even fairly modest rates of electric vehicle uptake could have a major impact on the electricity distribution grid.
However, these problems would be caused by uncoordinated charging, with battery recharging occurring as soon as the driver returns home and plugs in the car. With some simple coordination – perhaps using smart meters – Australia’s grid can easily support far more electric vehicles for decades to come." Link (https://theconversation.com/australias-electricity-grid-can-easily-support-electric-cars-if-we-get-smart-115294)
or
Can the Electricity Grid Cope with Electric Vehicles? | Australasian Science Magazine (http://www.australasianscience.com.au/article/issue-sepoct-2018/can-electricity-grid-cope-electric-vehicles.html)
"We set out to investigate the validity of most of the latter concerns, and to quantify the potential benefits of transport electrification. Our study, which has been published in the Australian Journal of Electrical and Electronics Engineering (https://goo.gl/RtCFsq), used existing travel data from the NSW Household Travel Survey 2014/15.We found that approximately 90% of vehicle commutes within most parts of Sydney are less than 40 km, so concerns about the limited range of EVs are largely unfounded. In fact, 88% of all vehicle commutes within Sydney could be serviced by existing low- to mid-range fully-electric vehicles costing up to $40,000. This result was surprisingly similar to a study published in Nature Energy which estimated that 87% of commutes across the United States could be provided by mid-range EVs (https://goo.gl/dggmPU).
The pattern of arrival times of vehicle trips shows that vehicles were parked at home for about 10 hours overnight, which was sufficient to recharge the EVs. More than 86% of weekday trips and 88% of weekend day trips would recharge in less than 3 hours.
https://www.australasianscience.com.au/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_inline_image_float_left/articles/images/inline_images/r2.jpg (https://www.australasianscience.com.au/sites/default/files/articles/images/inline_images/r2.jpg)
Overnight charging will have minimal impact on the grid despite an increase in the overall electricity consumption. Overnight charging by the amount required to replenish daily commutes is easily coordinated and managed, similar to how heating of off-peak hot water systems are currently co*ordinate"

Eevo

21st January 2021, 10:11 PM

Overnight charging will have minimal impact on the grid despite an increase in the overall electricity consumption. Overnight charging by the amount required to replenish daily commutes is easily coordinated and managed, similar to how heating of off-peak hot water systems are currently co*ordinate"

is anyone doing this tho? so far all thwe cars ive seen start charging as soon as you plug in the charger

Tombie

21st January 2021, 10:52 PM

And there lies more cost - those of us at the moment may well be paced to profit from developing systems.

Those buying in post implementation phase are going to start paying through the nose.

Arapiles

21st January 2021, 11:35 PM

I just came across this in WUWT . I haven't quoted the whole article just the section relating to EVs.

It seems that the German grid is so unstable now that they are on the edge of blackouts.

Ah the future .
Regards PhilipA

You’re positing “Watts up with that” - a notorious climate denial blog - as a credible source on this issue?

Sounds awfully like the crap that was being published about some street in Melbourne with Teslas that was pulling the grid down.

For the record, I saw the Teslas in Sandy Point recharging and the grid did not collapse.

NavyDiver

22nd January 2021, 06:29 AM

is anyone doing this tho? so far all thwe cars ive seen start charging as soon as you plug in the charger

I run a solar/battery UPS for my work. Which to use? Grid or solar power? I use which I need mostly solar to charge as much as possible then sit fully charged for a month for if the grid fails , it does fail once or twice a year. Scheduling is simple software not massive hardware needs so I assume it would be very easy. Batteries need a Battery Management System (BMS) for charging and distribution of power back for you. Only dopey ones have no scheduling ability even now.

One or two of the EVs ae advertising they can be used to time shift solar power from day to night already or as a back up power supply.

The later "back up" does require "islanding" which does require planning and a sparky "[B]Islanding is the condition in which a distributed generator (DG) continues to power a location even though electrical grid power is no longer present. Islanding can be dangerous to utility workers, who may not realize that a circuit is still powered, and it may prevent automatic re-connection of devices."

Will Your EV Keep the Lights On When the Grid Goes Down? | Greentech Media (https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/will-your-ev-keep-the-lights-on-when-the-grid-goes-down)

PhilipA

22nd January 2021, 08:03 AM

You’re positing “Watts up with that” - a notorious climate denial blog - as a credible source on this issue?

Perhaps you should read more widely. I try to read both points of view and then make my own decisions.

Or do you believe Al Gore, Greta Thunberg, Michael Mann etc without reservation.

In this case the article quotes that a German Minister tabled this proposal and had to withdraw it . This appears to be a fact. if you have evidence to challenge that fact please publish it.
Regards PhilipA

NavyDiver

22nd January 2021, 11:25 AM

You’re positing “Watts up with that” - a notorious climate denial blog - as a credible source on this issue?

Sounds awfully like the crap that was being published about some street in Melbourne with Teslas that was pulling the grid down.

For the record, I saw the Teslas in Sandy Point recharging and the grid did not collapse.

Interesting "Watts Up With That? is a blog promoting climate change denial that was created by Anthony Watts in 2006. The blog predominantly discusses climate issues with a focus on anthropogenic climate change, generally accommodating beliefs that are in opposition to the scientific consensus on climate change"

Never looked at it before "Greenland Ice Mass Loss Below Average In 2020 (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/01/19/greenland-ice-mass-loss-below-average-in-2020/)" Perhaps it should be a another name like clap trap "[B]There is no evidence whatsoever that melting will suddenly start to run away.
Mixes 'sort of true' if you distort the evidence they base their claims on.

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2020&client=firefox-b-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=qjc2kWKKSXC2XM%252CF_fc5rE7opfZvM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRLRjLyBdhCUcwoqfhjtrjYhfR3Bw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjerMHXrq7uAhXV4zgGHahxDSIQ9QF6BAgUEAE#i mgrc=qjc2kWKKSXC2XM)

Between September 2019 and August 2020, the rate of ice loss from the Greenland Ice Sheet was much lower (293 ± 66 billion metric tons), but still above the 2002–2020 average measured by GRACE. Average ice loss for Greenland over the full 18-year record was 268 ± 14 billion metric tons per year.Dec 8, 2020"

NASA satellite data Taking a Measure of Sea Level Rise: Ice Height (https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/147438/taking-a-measure-of-sea-level-rise-ice-height)

Scientists project ice losses from the Greenland and Antarctic Ice Sheets will play a large part in sea level rise in the
upcoming century.
https://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/images/imagerecords/147000/147438/11_2017_11_03_03725.jpg

Image of the Day for November 9, 2020
Instruments:ICESat — GLASICESat-2 — ATLASMapPhotograph

Loss of "28 trillion tonnes of ice in less than 30 years" is possibly closer to the truth.

Off topic sorry.

Companies such as Audi; BMW; Ford; Lexus; Mercedes; Porsche; Volkswagen and Volvo all have new models launching this year.

Check out how you can save with the latest deals on business, home office and technology with discount codes from Australian Coupons. (https://www.australiancoupons.com.au/)

Then there are new names that may become household in years to come. Cupra; Polestar; Rivian and Lucid are brands either created from traditional manufacturers or new start-ups, but they all have new EVs to offer the market.

ACT with cheap rego and more for incentive for EV beats extra tax here in VIC[bigwhistle]

NavyDiver

22nd January 2021, 11:34 AM

Perhaps you should read more widely. I try to read both points of view and then make my own decisions.

Or do you believe Al Gore, Greta Thunberg, Michael Mann etc without reservation.

In this case the article quotes that a German Minister tabled this proposal and had to withdraw it . This appears to be a fact. if you have evidence to challenge that fact please publish it.
Regards PhilipA

Sorry Phillip I was not having a go at you when posting a WIKKI opinion of a website. I do not think "Al Gore, Greta Thunberg, Michael Mann etc should be taken without reservation or proof"

Reading and reviewing is very important. Some of the articles on the site you mentioned are interesting to read. In investing I find reading opinions very opposite to my own very useful to temp over enthusiasm at times. Hydrogen might be an example or uranuim for a real basket case I am still holding on to.

Suspect some on both sides are a bit extreme the same as the LEFT/RIGHT. BLACK/WHITE no consideration for others views. Your views are very appreciated. Regards James

Tombie

22nd January 2021, 12:31 PM

Like all these topics though - confirmation bias and disconfirming evidence will always influence information flow.

It is well documented that search engines in particular will also guide demographics along consistent paths based on previous searches, geographic locations etc.

Something to be wary of when attempting research.

PhilipA

22nd January 2021, 01:38 PM

generally accommodating beliefs that are in opposition to the scientific consensus on climate change"

Consensus is not science. Science is the putting forward of a theory which is then empirically tested and none of that happens in climate "science"

The consensus was once that the earth was flat.

The consensus was once that the atom could not be split.

The consensus in the 1970s was that a new ice age was approaching.

Why not look at some of the articles and make your own decisions. Many scientists who are not part of the consensus and many who are have lively debates in the comments sections.

The most recent posts are factual posts about what is happening with the new Biden administration and some interesting historical facts.
Regards PhilipA

vnx205

22nd January 2021, 05:03 PM

Consensus is not science.
Regards PhilipA

You seem to be confusing the colloquial meaning of "consensus" and the meaning of "scientific consensus".

To recapitulate (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/recapitulate's=t), the scientific consensus is an inevitable consequence of scientists operating within a strict system that demands a standard of excellence coupled with evidence gathered across the breadth of the sciences. I say “inevitable” because if we embrace the philosophy (i.e., empiricism) that there are scientific facts about the world around us, then they should be capable of discovery through the application of the scientific method. Moreover, given enough time and routine application of the scientific method across varying domains of expertise, the confluence (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/confluence's=t) of all the evidence should then point to this scientific fact. This convergence upon a scientific fact is the scientific consensus.
Scientific Consensus — Critical Thinking | Intelligent Speculation (https://www.intelligentspeculation.com/blog/the-scientific-consensus)

Arapiles

22nd January 2021, 06:10 PM

Perhaps you should read more widely. I try to read both points of view and then make my own decisions.

Or do you believe Al Gore, Greta Thunberg, Michael Mann etc without reservation.

In this case the article quotes that a German Minister tabled this proposal and had to withdraw it . This appears to be a fact. if you have evidence to challenge that fact please publish it.
Regards PhilipA

Oh, I read very widely and I used to debate, on a different website, one of the key actors behind client denialism (and who's also involved in Watts Up apparently).

Edit: So:

- Watts Up is notoriously biased;

- Tichys Einblick, who they quoted from, is a right wing populist German blog that is politically aligned with Alternative for Germany (and if you don't know who they are, perhaps do a google search) and is a German equivalent to Breitbart News.

Oh, and Tichys were reposting from another German blog which appears to be even further to the right. As an example:

environmental activists, politicians, climate alarmists and pseudo-experts decided they could do a better job at generating power in Germany and eventually passed the outlandish EEG green energy feed-in act and rules.

Making up your own mind is fine but that presumes you're going to be able to discern and filter out the deliberate distortions that sites like Watts Up present as fact.

Arapiles

22nd January 2021, 06:42 PM

PhilipA

22nd January 2021, 08:16 PM

So you quote an article which does not refer to the energy minister in any way and quotes wind generator manufacturers.( who have no "vestad" interest of course)

So really no relevance but does support the premise that the German distribution system is being stretched. The thrust of the article I quoted was that there were 33000 EVs in Germany now and that looks to increase greatly due to
government policy. The proposed fact that the energy minister had drafted a proposal to ban charging of EVs during peak load hours was not in any way discussed in the article you referred to.

The definition of scientific consensus is very wordy but looks to me again to be a person's opinion of what it is.

How does that explain the deviation from the actual figures to the average of the many "scientific Consensus" computer simulations, which AFAIK do not include any reference to water vapour. Could it be they are wrong?

This 97% consensus crap was put forward by A Qld Uni undergraduate who at the end of the day had 86? responses to his survey.

The scientific consensus was that polar bears were dying out. A bit embarrassing that they have grown in number greatly, after the Inuit stopped shooting them.

The Scientific Consensus is that the Great Barrier Reef is dying. The science first said that it was runoff from farms but whoops recent studies show that this isn't so. Peter Ridd is alone in saying that it isn't necessarily so but is being ruthlessly attacked by The scientific consensus '"cancellers"
the BOM uses momentary figures for temperature that do not meet World standards and then has the gall to suggest their temperature figures are 'Scientific Consensus"

And so on.

I was surprised to stir up such a hornet's nest with what is a pretty uncontroversial article, but again it resulted in "ad Hominem" attacks or attacks on the most visited Climate Change website in the World.
Regards PhilipA

Eevo

22nd January 2021, 10:44 PM

Making up your own mind is fine but that presumes you're going to be able to discern and filter out the deliberate distortions that sites like Watts Up present as fact.

does the same apply to reneweconomy.com.au ?

jspyle

23rd January 2021, 08:48 AM

Methinks autocorrect may have pointed to a new reality!
And there lies more cost - those of us at the moment may well be paced to profit crime developing systems.

Those beyond during implementation phase are going to start lying through the nose.

Arapiles

23rd January 2021, 10:36 AM

does the same apply to reneweconomy.com.au ?

Provide an example? I'm not aware of Renew distorting any science.

About 30 years ago I did a meteorology subject as part of a Science degree. At that time the science of global warming was well known, accepted and had been for decades. We had lectures on it. It really wasn't controversial. Then the Koch brothers came along and they pumped hundreds of millions into climate denialism using the same PR companies that had helped the cigarette companies. Because a low carbon economy was a threat to their businesses, which is based on petrochemicals. And now what was simply a science issue is a political issue? Do the climate change deniers also have positions on evolution? Is there a left-wing / green view on gravity that needs to be rebutted?

I then spent years advising insurance and reinsurance companies both here, in Japan and in Europe, and none of those companies, who have their own teams of highly qualified researchers are in any doubt about climate change being real. I remember a very large Australian insurer showing me - in 1997 - a chart of how the peak of their storm claims in Melbourne had shifted from late Winter to late Spring and the comment was "and they say that climate change isn't real". And their records went back a long way.

So you'll forgive me if I'm a sceptic about sceptics.

A little reading on the Kochs for you:

Inside the Koch Brothers' Toxic Empire - Rolling Stone (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/inside-the-koch-brothers-toxic-empire-164403/)

Koch Industries: Secretly Funding the Climate Denial Machine - Greenpeace USA (https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/global-warming/climate-deniers/koch-industries/)

Koch family - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family)

According to a report by American University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_University)'s Investigative Reporting Workshop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_Reporting_Workshop), the Koch brothers have built "what may be the best funded, multifaceted, public policy, political and educational presence in the nation today."[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family#cite_note-irwreport-28) Opposition to the government spending any money on climate change is among this network's activities.[29] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family#cite_note-29)[28] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family#cite_note-irwreport-28) Anthropogenic climate change skeptic Willie Soon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willie_Soon) received more than $500,000 from the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_G._Koch_Charitable_Foundation) and a trust used by the Kochs.[30] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family#cite_note-30) The primary recipients of Koch contributions, including Americans for Prosperity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_for_Prosperity), The Heritage Foundation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Foundation), and the Manhattan Institute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Institute), actively oppose clean energy and carbon legislation and are skeptical of climate science.[31] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family#cite_note-31) In fact, the Koch brothers were involved in the first known gathering of climate change (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change) skeptics in 1991. Organized by the Cato Institute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cato_Institute), the meeting shifted the position of the Republican Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)) on climate change. While George H. W. Bush (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush) had still supported research into global warming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming) under the Global Change Research Act of 1990 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Change_Research_Act_of_1990), acceptance of scientific evidence on climate change began to weaken due to the Koch family's influence.[32] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_family#cite_note-32)

Tombie

23rd January 2021, 12:46 PM

Methinks autocorrect may have pointed to a new reality!

Good grief, what happens when you’re typing a post, get interrupted and throw the phone in your pocket!

PhilipA

23rd January 2021, 02:16 PM

I then spent years advising insurance and reinsurance companies both here, in Japan and in Europe, and none of those companies, who have their own teams of highly qualified researchers are in any doubt about climate change being real. I remember a very large Australian insurer showing me - in 1997 - a chart of how the peak of their storm claims in Melbourne had shifted from late Winter to late Spring and the comment was "and they say that climate change isn't real". And their records went back a long way.

And here lies the problem with some responses on this thread.

NOBODY and I repeat NOBODY on WUWT or elsewhere has ever suggested that climate change is not real.

The epithet "deniers" is a "straw man" that the shall I say "deeply climate religious" use to shout down anyone who is not as fervent in their wish for flagellation as they are.

Hence the vilification of Judith Curry who nobody could suggest was a climate denier, just because she said that nobody knows the causes as yet.

The debate is and has always been what the causes of climate change are and how much is a natural increase after the last ice age and how much is anthropological.

The devious machinations of The East Anglia Climate Centre and the emails about "hiding the decline" really did damage to the credibility of scientists as did the Mann hockey stick adopted by "scientific consensus"
Regards PhilipA

Eevo

23rd January 2021, 02:37 PM

Provide an example? I'm not aware of Renew distorting any science.

they ignore (not mention it) the science of engineering an electrical system. not sure if its distorting but its a pretty big bias.

Arapiles

23rd January 2021, 05:48 PM

they ignore (not mention it) the science of engineering an electrical system. not sure if its distorting but its a pretty big bias.

Some of the contributors to Renew are advisers to AEMO and have advised the Federal government on what changes to the national grid are required to deal with renewables .....

Eevo

23rd January 2021, 06:22 PM

Some of the contributors to Renew are advisers to AEMO and have advised the Federal government on what changes to the national grid are required to deal with renewables .....

i know you mean well, but the above doesnt say much about either party lol.

Tins

23rd January 2021, 07:30 PM

https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k't=87

NavyDiver

27th January 2021, 09:57 AM

"President Joe Biden has promised to replace the United States government’s fleet of roughly 650,000 vehicles with electric models as the new administration shifts its focus towards clean energy. “The federal government also owns an enormous fleet of vehicles, which we’re going to replace with clean electric vehicles made right here in America made by American workers,” Biden said on Monday"

That's a lot of cars, trucks and buses. Noting BUY America is doing a WOW to a few lithium and Graphite stocks here that supply the US market. PLL and NVX amoung others. "Biden made the comments prior to signing the Made in America executive order, which places stricter rules on the federal government’s procurement practices. The government has existing “buy American” rules, which states that a certain amount of a product must be made in the U.S. for a purchase to qualify for a federal contract." is about work as usual for most countries.

Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Alabama, LLC (HMMA), Hyundai's first assembly and manufacturing plant in the United States. This $1.8 billion automotive plant is one of the most advanced assembly plants in North America
Toyota is all over the states

That may mean "made in America" can be like GM or Ford were here. Not really Australian :)

President Joe Biden commits to replacing entire federal fleet with electric vehicles – TechCrunch (https://techcrunch.com/2021/01/25/president-joe-biden-commits-to-replacing-entire-federal-fleet-with-electric-vehicles/)

PhilipA

27th January 2021, 11:16 AM

Damaged Tesla model 3 battery costs USD16000 to replace with reconditioned battery.

While the battery is covered for warranty, it is not covered for damage , like running over a rock.

I guess insurance would cover it (maybe) but still would be a Bugger.
I read that in an article today.
BTW there is a good article by Motor Trend In Microsoft News this morning on the belief of the writer that EVs will never be price competitive with IC cars as it is not profitable for manufacturers to aim for that. Too long to post.

Regards PhilipA
Also re the EVs in the USA government fleets.
NSW did this with Prius about 18 years ago.
The users basically tried to destroy them, and also they were sent to inappropriate places.
I jokingly suggested to the DG that he should set an example and sell his Statesman and be driven around Sydney in a Prius . This was greeted with a stony cold silence.
Of course in Australia most government cars are utes etc while the executives mainly have salary sacrifice privately owned cars.
Maybe Biden is including tanks and armoured personnel carriers.
Regards PhilipA

NavyDiver

27th January 2021, 11:37 AM

scarry

27th January 2021, 07:18 PM

Regards PhilipA
Also re the EVs in the USA government fleets.
NSW did this with Prius about 18 years ago.
The users basically tried to destroy them, and also they were sent to inappropriate places.
I jokingly suggested to the DG that he should set an example and sell his Statesman and be driven around Sydney in a Prius . This was greeted with a stony cold silence.
Of course in Australia most government cars are utes etc while the executives mainly have salary sacrifice privately owned cars.
Maybe Biden is including tanks and armoured personnel carriers.
Regards PhilipA

The Qld gov tried it as well a year or so ago, turned into a disaster for numerous reasons.

They went back to Hybrids.

And dual cab utes.

Tombie

27th January 2021, 08:35 PM

Also re the EVs in the USA government fleets.
NSW did this with Prius about 18 years ago.
The users basically tried to destroy them, and also they were sent to inappropriate places.
I jokingly suggested to the DG that he should set an example and sell his Statesman and be driven around Sydney in a Prius . This was greeted with a stony cold silence.
Of course in Australia most government cars are utes etc while the executives mainly have salary sacrifice privately owned cars.
Maybe Biden is including tanks and armoured personnel carriers.
Regards PhilipA

And there’s the problem with public servants.

Those that do that kind of **** with publicly funded assets should be sacked. Marked never to work in the public sector again.

NavyDiver

27th January 2021, 09:29 PM

And there’s the problem with public servants.

Those that do that kind of **** with publicly funded assets should be sacked. Marked never to work in the public sector again.

Agree. Yet I note us Military types did get ordered to push our ships, planes and bodies to and often past breaking point[thumbsupbig]. Just listened for a third time to Anglo American CEO chatting about hydrogen mining. The billions being invested to make this new tech cheaper and better than our current options will make my D3 my last I.C.E. Happily I assume it might make another few hundred thousand km before its retired when better options are ready. Jan Klawitter of Anglo American on Everything About Hydrogen > podcasts > inspiratia (https://www.inspiratia.com/welcome/podcasts/everything-about-hydrogen) has been listened to three times now. I think its Epode 26 or so. Apple pod cast or Spotify has the new ones! Link is here (https://open.spotify.com/episode/0YJNO0IFsqPKqjTyFrh8al)

They have a 2040 carbon neutral target and want to make and save money getting to that target. [biggrin] Like all of those bits. As soon as I see Semi trailers from Qld to Vic running hydrogen I suspect my D3 will need a new engine option [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

NavyDiver

29th January 2021, 08:19 AM

GM Announces Goal to Eliminate Gas and Diesel Vehicles by 2035 The automaker is focused on electric vehicles and wants to be completely carbon-neutral by 2040.

GM Announces Goal to Eliminate Gas and Diesel Vehicles by 2035 (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35352321/gm-eliminate-gas-vehicles-2035/)

VW, Volvo, the UK and now GM. The ball is rolling[bigwhistle]

Tombie

29th January 2021, 11:35 AM

GM Announces Goal to Eliminate Gas and Diesel Vehicles by 2035

The automaker is focused on electric vehicles and wants to be completely carbon-neutral by 2040.

GM Announces Goal to Eliminate Gas and Diesel Vehicles by 2035 (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35352321/gm-eliminate-gas-vehicles-2035/)

VW, Volvo, the UK and now GM. The ball is rolling[bigwhistle]

Problem is its rolling towards the edge of a cliff [bigwhistle]

NavyDiver

29th January 2021, 11:51 AM

Problem is its rolling towards the edge of a cliff [bigwhistle]

The Nikola hydrogen truck would not have rolled fast enough to get over the Cliff. The Hyundai version and others do and will as do the Coradia iLint which while being the first is highly unlikely to be the last hydrogen train[thumbsupbig] No new trials are needed given the long list of tests over the last 20 years +

I understand the trust and affection we have for our Landrovers - notice I did not put the Favorite or best one in

Assuming that it cost us less to run and a lot less to maintain a BEV for FCEV ""[B]when the infrastructure to refuel is available""
With remote locations possibly considerable cheaper to electrify than run thousands of miles of power lines or the current truck after truck of diesel for power. Electrolysis enabling hydrogen storage /batteries and billions plus via AP ventures (https://apventures.com/news)all chasing cheaper and effective power solutions I think GM and others are on the right track. The methane to hydrogen options are enabling a huge scale option which should be reassuring.

scarry

29th January 2021, 12:09 PM

Problem is its rolling towards the edge of a cliff [bigwhistle]

Yep,they are dreaming,gives many a warm and fuzzy feeling but it’s never gonna happen.

Tombie

29th January 2021, 02:32 PM

The Nikola hydrogen truck would not have rolled fast enough to get over the Cliff. The Hyundai version and others do and will as do the Coradia iLint which while being the first is highly unlikely to be the last hydrogen train[thumbsupbig] No new trials are needed given the long list of tests over the last 20 years +

I understand the trust and affection we have for our Landrovers - notice I did not put the Favorite or best one in

Assuming that it cost us less to run and a lot less to maintain a BEV for FCEV ""[B]when the infrastructure to refuel is available""
With remote locations possibly considerable cheaper to electrify than run thousands of miles of power lines or the current truck after truck of diesel for power. Electrolysis enabling hydrogen storage /batteries and billions plus via AP ventures (https://apventures.com/news)all chasing cheaper and effective power solutions I think GM and others are on the right track. The methane to hydrogen options are enabling a huge scale option which should be reassuring.

I like your optimism but we will long be in a Pine box before they resolve this level of development and infrastructure required.

And those impacted initially will pay dearly for such structure

PhilipA

29th January 2021, 02:54 PM

Maybe I should repeat here a comment I just made to that GM article in the Australian. I recognise that most of the population lives in cities but many of them are struggling financially and will not be able to afford the likely $50K base price when they could before buy a new ICE car equivalent for say $15-20 K. For EVs to be successful consumers outside of Tesla "fan boys(and girls) " will have to want to buy EVs and that has not been evidenced yet.

I wonder what the voters will do if they are confronted with a "Hobson's Choice"

GM is now purely domestically focussed.
There will still be a huge market for petrol and diesel cars and trucks (ICE) in Africa, Asia, The Middle East and of course Australia and the rest of Oceania.

It may be that we will not be able to buy European ICE cars from Mercedes, BMW, VW , and Land Rover which in Australia have a very small market share anyway.

It is a great opportunity for Hyundai/Kia, and the Chinese as well as Toyota as long as they do not go totally "woke". Maybe hydrogen but again the replenishment will be a problem even with hydrides.

Even if they do increase range to say 700Km, the recharge time in rural and even suburban Australia will be prohibitively long and with spotty availability.

I often hear the comment that ICE quickly took over from horses but the whole German army in WW2 had more horse transport than mechanised and that was 40 years after ICE appeared.[QUOTE]
The German Army entered World War II with 514,000 horses, and over the course of the war employed, in total, 2.75 million horses and mules; the average number of horses in the Army reached 1.1 million. Wikipedia.
[QUOTE]
Regards PhilipA

scarry

29th January 2021, 04:08 PM

We might find that many of the Jap,Korean,Thailand companies keep on soldiering on the way way they are going,at the moment,and give some of the European markets away.
They will continue with hybrid development,and fuel cell,some have had hybrid for over 20 yrs,and fuel cells for over 10.
They were and still are way ahead of many other manufacturers.

Homestar

29th January 2021, 04:20 PM

Think I’ll buy an Isuzu powered Landy and start brewing my own fuel, it should last me a lifetime and I won’t have to bother with all this other guff.

Even if work ends up with EV’s I’ve got no idea how I’ll charge it as it sits on the road. Don’t think the council would like me having a lead across the footpath every night.

And what about all the people that live where they can’t park their cars in driveways or even in the same place each night? I doubt the Councils will want to pay to put in charging points at every parking spot...

PhilipA

31st January 2021, 08:06 AM

This is quite a good addition to the discussion by a green advocate that GM cannot be trusted and a goal is just that not a promise.

What GM's 2035 EV Announcement Really Means | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/news/39016/gm-aspires-to-sell-only-evs-by-2035-heres-how-to-understand-what-that-really-means)

Regards PhilipA

Homestar

5th February 2021, 01:49 PM

Tins

5th February 2021, 02:48 PM

Tins

5th February 2021, 03:01 PM

John Cadogan has a good video up - he's been driving a Kona EV as a daily driver for 9000KM now - his video is his thoughts on this. Well put together and some interesting thoughts on various subjects. I know some here don't like him, but even if you don't, this one's worth a watch as it's not his usual rant, but '12 things I've learned after driving an electric car 9000KM'

His first point, Range: 430k. So, if I want to drive to Adelaide, something I used to do frequently, I have to plan to stop, possibly for the night, at Bordertown. Well, from here in the Dandenongs more likely Kaniva. Assuming I can charge it there. Horsham seems more likely. Great.

If I lived in the city, and did all of my driving in the city or a 200k radius then the Kona would be fine, apart from its impact on the grid. But i don't, so it isn't.

Given that, the rest of his points are not relevant to me. In the unlikely event that I can ever afford one.

Homestar

5th February 2021, 03:34 PM

His first point, Range: 430k. So, if I want to drive to Adelaide, something I used to do frequently, I have to plan to stop, possibly for the night, at Bordertown. Well, from here in the Dandenongs more likely Kaniva. Assuming I can charge it there. Horsham seems more likely. Great.

If I lived in the city, and did all of my driving in the city or a 200k radius then the Kona would be fine, apart from its impact on the grid. But i don't, so it isn't.

Given that, the rest of his points are not relevant to me. In the unlikely event that I can ever afford one.

He talks about that in the first few minutes - he has no range anxiety doing what he does. He didn’t say everyone wouldn’t. And let’s face it, that’s one of the biggest reasons (cost being the other) that will hold back uptake of EV’s as it has been doing - you can’t sell something to someone who sees an inherent issue with how it will work for their application.

Homestar

5th February 2021, 03:34 PM

I guess no link for the obvious reasons, Gav?

Yep... [emoji16]

goingbush

6th February 2021, 08:59 AM

Well it didn't take that dickhead long to turn around. Last video I saw of his , (a few years ago) he was vehemently anti EV .

Ive done 13,500 km in my EV Landy now , absolutely love it and the novelty has not worn off . Dont think I'll be driving it today though as it was parked outside with the door tops off and sides rolled up , we had 35mm rain. I think the seats will be a bit soggy .

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/143094628_3661991983882565_167478346982015376_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=iO3hJeoHsY4AX-W22tz&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=bf1c014fec530dc38eb65ca9808a4a72&oe=60450928

Old Farang

6th February 2021, 02:28 PM

scarry

6th February 2021, 02:55 PM

They have a four of those Kona vehicles at the local TAFE,for the staff to use.
They are pretty happy with them, except for the usual issues.

Umm,forgot to put it on charge last night, and I am out somewhere the battery is just about flat and miles from a charging point.
IF I get to the charging point and its being used,so i have to wait, and its nearly 5.00pm,i am going to be very late home.[biggrin]

Its peoples logic, the staff cant get used to them being different from normal ICE vehicles.

vnx205

6th February 2021, 03:30 PM

Arapiles

6th February 2021, 07:00 PM

His first point, Range: 430k. So, if I want to drive to Adelaide, something I used to do frequently, I have to plan to stop, possibly for the night, at Bordertown. Well, from here in the Dandenongs more likely Kaniva. Assuming I can charge it there. Horsham seems more likely. Great.

If I lived in the city, and did all of my driving in the city or a 200k radius then the Kona would be fine, apart from its impact on the grid. But i don't, so it isn't.

Given that, the rest of his points are not relevant to me. In the unlikely event that I can ever afford one.

Why would you need to stop for the night? Horsham has, in addition to a Tesla Supercharger station, a new Chargefox charging station that has multiple 350 kW chargers.

Edit: and there's more Chargefox fast chargers at Keith and Murray Bridge.

Edit: Kona can only be charged at max 100 kW, so it'll take about an hour.

Edit: and a fill at Horsham would get you to Adelaide, with the option to quickly top up at Keith or Murray Bridge.

Tombie

6th February 2021, 09:00 PM

Assuming it’s not bloody hot and the AC running flat out.

Then that range drops markedly.

Arapiles

6th February 2021, 10:28 PM

Assuming it’s not bloody hot and the AC running flat out.

Then that range drops markedly.

Probably not, they’re electric cooled batteries, like Tesla but unlike the Nissan Leaf.

cripesamighty

7th February 2021, 12:07 AM

A couple of years ago when I configured a Tesla online, you could play with different features to give you range estimations using the Tesla Range Estimator for different vehicles so you could compare them. I'll strain my brain to remember, but configurable things that affected range were; battery capacity selected, tyre size, aircon/heater running, headlights on/off, outside air temp, average speed, number of passengers, etc. I tried it as a back of the envelope type exercise to see if it was feasible to run a Tesla from North of Perth to Bunbury and back on the same charge and see if it was do-able winter/summer, strong winds or not.

According to which online profile you selected, the diameter tyres you fitted and whether the aircon is running and lights are on, how hot/cold/windy it was outside, these variables could give you a marked reduction in expected range in the multiples of 10's of kilometers. Even not accounting for a bit of battery degredation over time, I worked out that with the type of the running around while in Bunbury and surrounding townships visiting friends I usually did, it was barely marginal to use it for a day trip, depending on season and night/day driving. I figured it's horses for courses.

JDNSW

7th February 2021, 05:56 AM

The history of the electric car is longer than you might think

The history of the electric car is longer than you might think - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-02/the-history-birth-death-resurrection-of-the-electric-car/11053928)

When Labor announced its plan to boost the number of electric cars in Australia over the next decade, an election campaign battleground opened up.
Prime Minister Scott Morrison accused his rival of wanting to "end the weekend when it comes to his policy on electric vehicles" (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-08/campaign-politics-masks-bipartisan-electric-car-policies/10981902); Bill Shorten returned fire by accusing the Government of running a "scare campaign".
But electric cars aren't new — they've been around for more than a century.
And for a moment at the advent of the automobile industry, they even threatened to become the dominant mode of transport.

168432

What killed electric cars was mainly two things -

1. Mass production (mainly Ford, but soon copied) meant that purchase price of conventional cars dropped from "if you have to ask how much you can't afford it" to affordable for middle class buyers over the period 1912-1920.

2. The selfstarter, which became at least optional in most cars over the same period.

Added to this perhaps was the rapid refinement and increase in performance that could not be matched by EVs of the time. Compared to conventional cars, while EVs were competitive in most respects and far better in refinement in 1910, by 1920 they were slow, heavy, limited range, and eye-wateringly expensive compared to most conventional cars. Compared to the few in the same price range, EVs were far slower, shorter range, and only slightly more refined.

Old Farang

7th February 2021, 07:54 PM

How electric cars may change the future of the Australian service station

How electric cars may change the future of the Australian service station - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-06/does-the-servo-have-a-future-in-a-world-of-electric-vehicles/13098384)

You may never have considered its existence, but the humble servo has accompanied you everywhere.

From refuelling the car to buying an ice cream on a hot day or picking up supplies on a road trip — it has been a hallmark of most Australian lives.
But in the decades to come, the service station as you know it could cease to exist.

Just how electric vehicles and alternate fuels like hydrogen will change the petrol station of the future is Ashley Lang's area of expertise.

PhilipA

8th February 2021, 07:32 AM

NavyDiver

8th February 2021, 08:02 AM

To me the problem will be how to ensure sufficient space is available for long weekends and holidays.

This phenomenon has already happened in California half way to San Francisco when cars were queued for 8-16 hours at the Tesla Rapid Chargers.

Imagine a Service Station or even devoted fast Charger area during a long weekend.

The Tesla Chargers on the Central Coast are on the top floor of a car park at Tuggerah. Imagine the Chaos when say 20 Teslas are queued up blocking off the whole top floor of the carpark.

This to me is a big challenge. If it is true that most people will charge at home , how can the expense of providing very large areas for EV cars to queue on holidays and long weekends or during school holidays?

Regards PhilipA

Its a issue. I am still looking/waiting for a camping gen set that will also fit in my boat for long offshore fishing as well as re power the EV I want to tow my boat 400+ km. Honestly a trip to Dive on HMAS Hobart in SA from here would be almost the minimum I want before a EV replaces my Disco.

The Aussie ( very pricey) Green Energy Hydrogen Battery by LAVO™ Australia (https://lavo.com.au)
allows you to remove cylinders of hydrogen to add to other fuel cells. add news like "Fraunhofer develops ‘power paste’ that holds hydrogen The paste could replace tanks and power small to large fuel cell vehicles." and I suspect a Multipurpose hydrogen Genet just might provide the four roles I want before I consider buying a multi role UPS replacement for work which also fits in my EvDisco, EvBoat and...

168511 its good to dream. Fuels change over time Hydrogen goop might be here soon. https://www.electrive.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/fraunhofer-ifam-powerpaste-2021-01-min-768x384.png

Old Farang

8th February 2021, 02:34 PM

BradC

8th February 2021, 07:52 PM

oops:

Electric Cars Catch Fire On Charging Station In China – Shocking Video

Read more at: Electric Cars Catch Fire On Charging Station In China - Shocking Video (https://gaadiwaadi.com/electric-cars-catch-fire-on-charging-station-in-china-shocking-video/)

Electric Cars Catch Fire On Charging Station In China – Shocking Video (gaadiwaadi.com) (https://gaadiwaadi.com/electric-cars-catch-fire-on-charging-station-in-china-shocking-video/)

Yeah, that’s an oldie. It’s going to happen again and again. When you push that much current through a system it very quickly finds the weak points and lights them up.

Connectors, and humans mating the connectors are always going to be weak points. Then you have all the other weak points. Since some people think it’s acceptable for some low percentage of land rover V6 donks to snap a crank I can’t see how it couldn’t be acceptable for a low percentage of electric vehicles to burst into flames and ignite whatever is near them. “Acceptable manufacturing issues” in a mass produced product. After all, it’s a low percentage and it doesn’t affect me.

ramblingboy42

8th February 2021, 08:23 PM

I'm not even going to consider an electric vehicle.

I believe that hydrogen fuelled ICE vehicles will rapidly rise to prominence and EVs will pale into insignificance.

EV's will always be available, always have been for those that like them.

In Australia we wont count , it's USA and Europe that will be the deciding factor in motor vehicle propulsion , we will have leftovers thanks.

BradC

8th February 2021, 08:29 PM

I believe that hydrogen fuelled ICE vehicles will rapidly rise to prominence and EVs will pale into insignificance

Mazda did a lot of work on that years ago with the Wankel. The issue with hydrogen is it has a tragically low octane value, quickly detonating to bits any conventional ICE it is introduced to. The rotary was quite immune to that when set up right.

My gut says due to the other difficulties in transporting and storing hydrogen in sufficient quantities to make it practical, the $$$ just hasn't been there to make it worthwhile. Of course using air on the other side of the equation is also going to have an ongoing NOx problem to deal with.

101RRS

8th February 2021, 08:39 PM

I believe that hydrogen fuelled ICE vehicles will rapidly rise to prominence and EVs will pale into insignificance.

Not likely to be ICE powered by hydrogen but hydrogen fuel cells generating power for electric motor/s.

ramblingboy42

8th February 2021, 08:50 PM

Tombie

8th February 2021, 08:55 PM

Tombie

8th February 2021, 08:56 PM

yes maybe to both of you, but we , Australia will not be given any choices.

there is always going to be some form of "nasty" footprint , no matter what form of energy is finally chosen to replace the ICE we have been fond of for over 100yrs.

Speaking of energy.

Today on site a 30kva genset was observed running a Ctek25 to charge 4x Optima Yellow tops.
Excellent application [emoji41][emoji12][emoji56]

ramblingboy42

8th February 2021, 09:20 PM

slight bit of overkill.......

Homestar

8th February 2021, 09:39 PM

Speaking of energy.

Today on site a 30kva genset was observed running a Ctek25 to charge 4x Optima Yellow tops.
Excellent application [emoji41][emoji12][emoji56]

I see similar all the time. We currently have 2 x 200KVA’s with a customer who said they needed “at least 180KVA” - they are running 7 amps - about once a day an 11KW motor starts as well - ideal application for the 30 you have at work running the charger. 👍

NavyDiver

9th February 2021, 07:32 AM

Had to chuckle at this. A billionaire brought one. Assume its too pricey for me. its so ugly its cute [biggrin] It ain’t pretty, but SCG 010 Zero version of Baja 1000-winning ute takes 5min to refuel and offers 1600km range

Set to be powered by a development of the race truck’s hydrogen fuel-cell (https://www.motoring.com.au/the-case-for-hydrogen-and-fuel-cell-vehicles-126411/), the headline news is SCG hydrogen tanks take just five minutes to fill from empty and provide an incredible 1600km range.

168540

Glickenhaus plotting hydrogen-powered SCG Boot pick-up - motoring.com.au (https://www.motoring.com.au/glickenhaus-plotting-hydrogen-powered-scg-boot-pick-up-128429/)

Two non 4wd FCEV cars arriving here is sort of news. "Toyota Mirai and Hyundai Nexo are in a neck-and-neck race to launch Australia’s first fleet of hydrogen-powered cars (https://www.caradvice.com.au/922350/toyota-mirai-hydrogen-fleet-arrives-in-australia-race-is-on-with-hyundai-nexo/)."Like others have pointed out BEV seems more logical for 90% of cars still.

JDNSW

9th February 2021, 07:46 AM

goingbush

9th February 2021, 10:16 AM

Discussion on local radio yesterday - an Orange firm is moving into a new factory to start on 2,000 conversions of Landcruisers and Hiluxes to EVs over the next five years.

Interestingly, the company supplying them with kits for the work is Tempo in Germany. I assume this is the same company that was building 80" Landrovers under licence with their own steel body in the early 1950s.

I think its Tembo

Tembo e-LV, the New Standard in mining mobility based on Toyota Land Cruiser & Hilux - Tembo e-LV Electric Cruiser & Electric HLX (https://www.tembo4x4-elv.com)

NavyDiver

9th February 2021, 10:58 AM

.(oops sorry I edited your post instead of replying to it)

Eevo

9th February 2021, 12:26 PM

"Some basic maths points to each electric-converted vehicle costing approximately AUD$163,500 each."

:ph34r::no2::bangin:

JDNSW

9th February 2021, 01:17 PM

I think its Tembo

Tembo e-LV, the New Standard in mining mobility based on Toyota Land Cruiser & Hilux - Tembo e-LV Electric Cruiser & Electric HLX (https://www.tembo4x4-elv.com)

Oh well, bit hard to tell the sound on the radio, and it sounded like it was the same name.

Homestar

9th February 2021, 04:33 PM

Well I have to commend my workplace. All new reps cars to replace the Equinox’s will be Rav 4 Hybrids from now on. Over the next 3 years that will be around 200 all in.

I’ve driven one and I quite like it - much nicer to drive than the Equipox, although It’s most likely I’ll end up with another Hilux - if I didn’t need to tow I’d almost go for one I think.

Good compromise as a straight EV wouldn’t suit a lot of the reps but this will.

It’s a start. [emoji106]

scarry

9th February 2021, 04:46 PM

A mate has one of those RAV 4 Hybrids,he has had it for about 4 months and loves it.

Its got that many whistles and bells, its ridiculous[biggrin]

He had a long wait for his, something like 5 months if I recall.

One of my brothers has a Hybrid Camry for his wife.It isn't a bad thing either, although they live in the NT,and at 135 Km/hr,it doesnt mind a drink....

Homestar

9th February 2021, 05:09 PM

The first one was delivered yesterday to a Rep in Sydney - lead times are fine as the lease companies generally order the new vehicle 6 to 12 months in advance - Mines got a year to go and they are already discussing the replacement so I doubt the long lead time will effect us - the reps will just keep driving their equipox until the new one is ready.

Had a Hybrid Camry as a rental for a week in Adelaide not long ago - got under 5 litres per 100KM with all city driving and it was seamless and quiet to drive. Unless you were looking at the screen you’d never know when the engine kicks in. I’d have one of those as well - Toyota have their Hybrid system extremely well sorted.

Tombie

9th February 2021, 05:11 PM

Mum was looking to trade her current Rav on one of them.

So we had a look. Quite impressive (for a yota[emoji41]).
In the end I talked her out of the deal on one point only.

She’s 72.

She’s decided her driving career will be done in 5yrs or less.

When we did the sums, 5 years and her usage doesn’t equate to enough offset - neither in fuel savings or the impact of another vehicle.

Other than that very impressive, but cannot equate the premium with her use.

scarry

9th February 2021, 07:04 PM

I’d have one of those as well - Toyota have their Hybrid system extremely well sorted.

They did introduce them 23 yrs ago, and even their fuel cell vehicles, available in other markets are way ahead of the rest.

My mate recons the plug in Hybrid RAV in other markets, actually uses more fuel as the battery is much heavier, than the hybrid we get here.

And the electric range is not great.

Once we retire, which isn't far away, the van will go,and we will replace it with either a Hybrid or EV.Our other vehicle will be for the trips,country runs,on the property, etc.

NavyDiver

9th February 2021, 08:14 PM

scarry

9th February 2021, 08:21 PM

"But Tesla now faces a setback from Chinese consumer watchdogs who have asked Tesla to improve internal management, comply with Chinese law and regulations and to protect consumers' rights.
Tesla Shanghai said it "sincerely accepted the guidance of government departments" and that it had "deeply reflected on shortcomings" in a statement.

Tesla is already facing quality issues in the US and is to recall large numbers of Model S and Model X cars over failing touchscreens."

Mr Musk and Mr Packer lamenting today? [bigwhistle]

Slightly off topic, there is a good movie about the guy Tesla on Netflix,that the company was named after,i presume.

I knew there was Edison,and Westinghouse,but never heard of the guy Tesla.

Maybe I was asleep when they mentioned it at school[wink11]

Old Farang

9th February 2021, 09:07 PM

Slightly off topic, there is a good movie about the guy Tesla on Netflix,that the company was named after,i presume.

I knew there was Edison,and Westinghouse,but never heard of the guy Tesla.

Maybe I was asleep when they mentioned it at school[wink11]
Yes, it must of been considered a swear word in Australian tech schools! The first time that I ever heard his name was in the early 1980s when a Kiwi that I was working with kept talking about him.

There have been many documentaries in recent years about his inventions. Many about the "Tesla Coil" and his theory about wireless transmission of electrical power. He worked for Edison at an early age, but had a big falling out with him and went out on his own. A bit of a genius in fact.

The following is probably a good un-biased story about him:

Edison and Tesla's 'Current War' ushered in the electric age (nationalgeographic.com) (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/magazine/2016/07-08/edison-tesla-current-war-ushered-electric-age/)

Tombie

9th February 2021, 09:39 PM

Really? I knew about Nic in Primary school…
He makes really cool coils 🥸[emoji41]

Old Farang

9th February 2021, 09:45 PM

Really? I knew about Nic in Primary school…
He makes really cool coils 🥸[emoji41]

Really? Are you sure it wasn't just a female teacher telling you that her coil was tickling her! :eek2:

JDNSW

10th February 2021, 05:58 AM

......
I knew there was Edison,and Westinghouse,but never heard of the guy Tesla.

Maybe I was asleep when they mentioned it at school[wink11]

Tesla was the 'inventor' of some key parts of the AC power system, where Westinghouse was the man who (eventually) commercialised it, buying the patents from him, so everything you bought had "Westinghouse" on the label.

Same sort of relation largely applied to Edison, with the difference that Edison did some inventing himself,and employed a lot of inventors while making sure that everything was sold with his name on it.

Edison's key invention was the electric light (and he espoused DC distribution), Westinghouse's was AC power distribution made practical by Tesla's induction motor and polyphase AC theory.

ramblingboy42

10th February 2021, 12:44 PM

NavyDiver

10th February 2021, 01:25 PM

Mr Nicholas Tesla was a genius well ahead of his time. Suspect he would appreciate the argument put forward about economy of scale required for manufacturing of diesel engines with thousand of parts to a fuel cell with few stressed components
Anyone want to guess how many parts are in our Defenders, Rangies, Evokes or Discos engines?
A fuel cell has no moving pasts.

Admist to being a little crazy so reserched the question and had fun . A "[B]*" is a wild card for seraching. I put a * in Cummings engine parts search - It seemed to melt the search function[thumbsupbig]

Note Cummins is moving fast into hydrogen and battery tech Try it if you want Genuine Cummins Parts (https://parts.cummins.com/esn-entry/main/search/ebu/*)
Hyzon's Craig Knight chats with Sam Pickett from Knext Energy. Hydrogen vs Diesel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Ip7gof2z8&feature=emb_logo

Add that 3 years ago Toyota using its prior generation fuel cell "Electricity from the stacks is fed to two big electric motors" in a drag race Toyota Project Portal Fuel Cell Kenworth v Diesel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HT8b-q0rvo
Fun to consider I think. We know the new bigger better generation of Toyota fuel cell is smaller, cheaper and more powerful than the ones used in that truck. The $9,000 price reduction ( I assume that's USD) gives an indication how quickly we will see the expected price reductions expected in the Hydrogen sector. Noting of course I think Nuclear power is a great idea if they got the tech right so I am at times mistaken :)

vnx205

10th February 2021, 05:23 PM

If Nicola Tesla hadn't been murdered , there's no telling what advancements we would be enjoying now.

Tesla had no friends.

Possibly the most brilliant man ever to walk the planet.....never proven though.

He was also the rudest and most arrogant man to walk the planet , hence no friends , he trusted no one.

It's probably worth the research to see what he invented and might surprise you to see what others claim to have invented which were Tesla's stolen inventions.

There is no credible, convincing evidence that he was murdered. He died in 1943 of a coronary thrombosis and had not produced anything worthwhile since about 1895.

There is no doubt he had some brilliant ideas. There is also no doubt that many of his later ideas were pure fantasy.

Tesla kept copious notes on his inventions and ideas, many of which
have survived (https://vault.fbi.gov/nikola-tesla) to this day. Scientists were thrilled by the possibilities they might contain, but upon examination, these notebooks were found to be highly speculative and contain no useful scientific knowledge.

10 Uncomfortable Truths About Nikola Tesla - Listverse (https://listverse.com/2014/09/26/10-uncomfortable-truths-about-nikola-tesla/)

bob10

15th February 2021, 04:27 PM

The Detroit-based automaker revealed the new Bolt electric car, which it first brought to market in 2017 and was once available in Australia under the now-defunct Holden badge, alongside the larger, “electric utility vehicle” on Sunday night (US time).
Both vehicles are equipped with GM’s new semi-autonomous “Super Cruise” system which can recognise if a driver is paying attention to the road using facial recognition technology, doing away with need for hands to be on the steering wheel.
The new 2022 Bolt is priced from $SU31,995 ($A41,131 converted) and the EUV is priced from $US33,995 ($A43,702 converted), with the latter being about 15cm longer than the smaller vehicle.

General Motors unveils cheaper Bolt electric car and larger utility version (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/15/general-motors-unveils-cheaper-bolt-electric-car-and-larger-utility-version/)

bob10

15th February 2021, 04:31 PM

New sighting of Hyundai ionic 5 in Brisbane.

New images of the Hyundai Ioniq 5 that is slated to officially arrive in Australia in mid-2021 show the vehicle charging at the new 75kW RTM75 charger at Tritium’s headquarters in Brisbane.
Based on the South Korean carmaker’s “45” concept, the Ioniq 5 is the first of a dedicated all-electric series from the company under the Ioniq name, and will join the Hyundai Kona and Hyundai Ioniq electric cars already available in Australia for $59,990 and $48,490 before on-roads respectively.

New sighting of Hyundai Ioniq 5 testing at Tritium Brisbane headquarters (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/15/new-sighting-of-hyundai-ioniq-5-testing-at-tritium-brisbane-headquarters/)

bob10

15th February 2021, 04:33 PM

Electric vehicle battery material and testing firm Novonix has inked a new five-year deal with a battery material research groupDalhousie University.
Novonix, which has operations in Australia, US and Canada, and is listed on the ASX, has attracted recent attention regarding the growing demand for battery materials, having inked a deal with Tesla lead battery research Jeff Dahn who will become the company’s chief scientific advisor from July 2021 (https://thedriven.io/2021/01/19/battery-scientist-jeff-dahn-extends-tesla-contract-forges-new-role-with-novonix/).
The firm also recently announced it will receive a $US5.6 million ($A7.2 million) grant from the US department of energy for its work on synthetic graphite, which is aimed at providing a cost-effective alternative for the natural graphite materials commonly used in battery rechargeable anodes.
The new sponsorship deal with professor Mark Obrovac’s lab at the Canadian university – the same location of Tesla battery lead Jeff Dahn’s lab – builds on a former two-year agreement.

EV battery material firm Novonix strengthen ties with Dalhousie University (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/15/ev-battery-material-firm-novonix-strengthen-ties-with-dalhousie-university/)

Tins

15th February 2021, 04:55 PM

Noting of course I think Nuclear power is a great idea if they got the tech right so I am at times mistaken :)

If it wasn't for the Henny Pennys of this world we would already be using nukes on a big scale, which would make most of the arguments against EVs ( most of which I agree with ) go away.

However, I reckon fuel cells make much more sense. Apparently even the makers of the "new" OKA are planning one. Cost seems a little high ATM.

Start at 12:50

https://youtu.be/o9lCNxCwldE

bob10

16th February 2021, 05:02 PM

Tins

16th February 2021, 07:58 PM

Jaguar Land Rover is promising to make only electric cars from 2025 for the Jaguar brand, with the Land Rover brand to also offer electric versions from 2024, CEO Thierry Bolloré announced on Monday (UK time), as the iconic British brands undertake a major shift to net-zero operations.
The announcement forms a key part of the brand’s “Reimagine” global strategy which seeks to evoke a “sustainability-rich reimagination of modern luxury, unique customer experiences, and positive societal impact.” It also comes after the UK government announced it would ban sales of petrol or diesel cars from 2030.

Jaguar to go all electric from 2025, Land Rover to follow (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/16/jaguar-to-go-all-electric-from-2025-land-rover-to-follow/)

There goes 75% of their global market, in the medium term at least. They'll sell in California I guess.

There's a learning curve for someone here, but who exactly? Boris has three years to convince people he's doing the right thing, and people over there are ****ed at him for the backflips he has already performed. I reckon Nigel is licking his lips...

I know people believe that EVs and fuel cell cars are the future. So, let the market decide. When was the last time a politician was right about anything?

Eevo

16th February 2021, 08:55 PM

we need a poll.
what year do you think you'lll buy your first EV?

i cant see myself getting one in the next 10-15 years.

Tombie

16th February 2021, 09:22 PM

we need a poll.
what year do you think you'lll buy your first EV?

i cant see myself getting one in the next 10-15 years.

When the range suits my use.
I do still have the deposit on the Cybertruck!

DiscoDB

16th February 2021, 09:28 PM

When the range suits my use.
I do still have the deposit on the Cybertruck!

Maybe should have paid the deposit in Bitcoin, could be fully paid for by the time they get here.

Eevo

16th February 2021, 09:38 PM

When the range suits my use.
I do still have the deposit on the Cybertruck!

range and convience.

i'll take electric motorbikes for example. as ive researched them quite a bit.

either its cheap chinese crap that doesn't have the range

or its so expensive that the general bike population cant afford it.
one of the expensive manufactures has already pulled out of australia. despite best efforts, they didnt come close to matching ICE bike's in price.

only electric bike i could consider on its merits is the harley, but at 50k new..... no thanks.

Tins

16th February 2021, 10:04 PM

we need a poll.
what year do you think you'lll buy your first EV?

i cant see myself getting one in the next 10-15 years.

IF I win the lottery before I die then.... never. But, given the lottery thing, I would definitely consider an OKA with a fuel cell.

By the time EVs deliver the range, convenience and the ZERO emissions the pundits claim I expect to be either dead or dribbling into my gruel.

Eevo, you need to add autonomous driving to your poll. Here's your first vote: NEVER, not on your nellie. Might work, with a lot of angst, in Manhattan. With Musk in control, I expect it to also work on Mars. But it won't work on the CSR. Not in my lifetime.

Homestar

17th February 2021, 08:15 AM

scarry

17th February 2021, 09:59 AM

I know people believe that EVs and fuel cell cars are the future. So, let the market decide. When was the last time a politician was right about anything?

Who in their right mind would believe what a politician says is going to happen in 10 or 20 yrs time?

Or the CEO’s of some of these vehicle manufacturers.

All most politicians are doing is beating their chests to grab a few votes,having no idea WTF is going on in the real world.

No doubt there will be quite a few backflips in the next few years.

NavyDiver

17th February 2021, 10:31 AM

Who in their right mind would believe what a politician says is going to happen in 10 or 20 yrs time?

Or the CEO’s of some of these vehicle manufacturers.

All most politicians are doing is beating their chests to grab a few votes,having no idea WTF is going on in the real world.

No doubt there will be quite a few backflips in the next few years.

Fully agree to waiting for a suitable range, capability and other needs before jumping. Suspect it might be a bit faster than you might think. RFX new gen 3 battery is possibly 30% cheaper even at the lower volumes they are making. I happily still use the stupidly expensive ones I brought years ago which have paid for themselves several times over now[thumbsupbig]

Quantimscape, Toyota and others newer much cheaper much higher capacity and charge rates solid state batteries are probably the infliction point in price as it is cheaper to make them and the GIGA scale manufacturing plants under construction.
None of us had or could afford solar in 1976. Farmers wind mills are now often solar pumps now I hear. That may also giving us an indication of the significant changes bought about by lower costs. [biggrin]

Try the price graph in this link for some idea/possiblity of what is about to occur with Batteries and Hydrogen options. Solar PV module prices - Our World in Data (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices)

Solar has moved from over $100 per KwH to about $0.38 is interesting? Cheaper than a windmill is a little sad as I like windmills :)

scarry

17th February 2021, 10:54 AM

Cheaper than a windmill is a little sad as I like windmills :)

Bloody dangerous though, hanging off them doing repairs,dont ask me how I know[bigsad]

The Solar pumps can also be controlled remotely, which is great.

NavyDiver

17th February 2021, 08:54 PM

Bloody dangerous though, hanging off them doing repairs,dont ask me how I know[bigsad]

The Solar pumps can also be controlled remotely, which is great.
I can imaging. One of my favorite Uncle repeatedly PTSD like tells me about TELLING me to "stay on the ground" to find me at the top of the windmill he was trying to repair and a lot of embellishment about him having to try and hold me as well as most of the windmill[biggrin]

He is a legend in my view but no way was I at risk of falling even aged 8. I was bring the spanners he dropped back up to him. [thumbsupbig]

bob10

20th February 2021, 08:28 AM

When I will buy one? Probably never - can’t see them being viable or affordable in the timeframe I’ll need cars within my lifetime. I would like to convert an old series or similar to EV for tooling around town, etc but not sure if I’ll get the chance for that either.

I think by the time EV’s are cheap enough for joe public, we’ll be moving to hydrogen/fuel cells not batteries so they will have the range and quick fuelling capability we need. Batteries are the problem with EV’s, not the rest of the vehicle, you just need something else to make the electricity. 👍

Tasmania have opened up an electric highway fast charging network, only for bitumin roads though.

Electric Highway Tasmania’s charging network boasts twelve 50kW charging stations across the state at Burnie, Devonport, Scottsdale, St Helens, Swansea, Derwent Bridge, Queenstown, Kempton, New Norfolk, Geeveston, Hobart, and Launceston, where the ceremony was eld.
Two ultra-rapid charging stations at Campbell Town and Kings Meadows are also part of the network, offering charging rates of up to 350kW.
“With Tasmania now being 100 per cent self-sufficient in renewable energy, we are ideally suited to benefitting from more electric vehicles in our state,” said Clive Attwater, the managing director of EHT.

Tasmania opens Electric Highway fast-charging network, paving way for EV rentals (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/19/tasmania-opens-electric-highway-fast-charging-network-paving-way-for-ev-rentals/)

bob10

20th February 2021, 09:28 AM

Fully agree to waiting for a suitable range, capability and other needs before jumping. Suspect it might be a bit faster than you might think. RFX new gen 3 battery is possibly 30% cheaper even at the lower volumes they are making. I happily still use the stupidly expensive ones I brought years ago which have paid for themselves several times over now[thumbsupbig]

Quantimscape, Toyota and others newer much cheaper much higher capacity and charge rates solid state batteries are probably the infliction point in price as it is cheaper to make them and the GIGA scale manufacturing plants under construction.
None of us had or could afford solar in 1976. Farmers wind mills are now often solar pumps now I hear. That may also giving us an indication of the significant changes bought about by lower costs. [biggrin]

Try the price graph in this link for some idea/possiblity of what is about to occur with Batteries and Hydrogen options. Solar PV module prices - Our World in Data (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/solar-pv-prices)

Solar has moved from over $100 per KwH to about $0.38 is interesting? Cheaper than a windmill is a little sad as I like windmills :)

Slowly but surely, EV's are making inroads. However the cost in Australia is still a big stumbling block for most people. There needs to be some kind of tax incentive for manufacturers to get the ball rolling.

"Electric bus maker BusTech Group says it will open a factory in NSW – its fourth in Australia – after the NSW government made the company an official supplier in its move to completely decarbonise its bus fleet by 2030.
Bus operators in NSW, contracted to the state government, had already put in orders for its ZDI buses, the company said, though it would not say how many.
“We use a supply chain that is over 95 per cent located in Australia,” said Kasia Pitman, the company’s director of sustainability. “This not only creates economic benefits and generates employment opportunities, but also ensuresthe lowest carbon emissions manufacturing footprint of any bus available in Australia.”
BusTech joins BCI, Yutong, Nexport BYD Gemilang and Nexport BYD Volgren as certified suppliers of electric buses to the NSW government.
Late last year, the NSW government announced (https://thedriven.io/2020/12/02/nsw-to-roll-out-120-electric-buses-in-2021-ahead-of-full-transition/#:~:text=The%20Liberal%20NSW%20government%20will,1 20%20electric%20buses%20in%202021.) it would put 120 electric buses on the road, 50 of which would be in Sydney with the remainder yet to be allocated a location."

Electric bus maker BusTech plans NSW factory to meet state demand (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/19/electric-bus-maker-bustech-plans-nsw-factory-to-meet-state-demand/)

NavyDiver

20th February 2021, 04:02 PM

Slowly but surely, EV's are making inroads. However the cost in Australia is still a big stumbling block for most people. There needs to be some kind of tax incentive for manufacturers to get the ball rolling.

"Electric bus maker BusTech Group says it will open a factory in NSW – its fourth in Australia – after the NSW government made the company an official supplier in its move to completely decarbonise its bus fleet by 2030.
Bus operators in NSW, contracted to the state government, had already put in orders for its ZDI buses, the company said, though it would not say how many.
“We use a supply chain that is over 95 per cent located in Australia,” said Kasia Pitman, the company’s director of sustainability. “This not only creates economic benefits and generates employment opportunities, but also ensuresthe lowest carbon emissions manufacturing footprint of any bus available in Australia.”
BusTech joins BCI, Yutong, Nexport BYD Gemilang and Nexport BYD Volgren as certified suppliers of electric buses to the NSW government.
Late last year, the NSW government announced (https://thedriven.io/2020/12/02/nsw-to-roll-out-120-electric-buses-in-2021-ahead-of-full-transition/#:~:text=The%20Liberal%20NSW%20government%20will,1 20%20electric%20buses%20in%202021.) it would put 120 electric buses on the road, 50 of which would be in Sydney with the remainder yet to be allocated a locat

Electric bus maker BusTech plans NSW factory to meet state demand (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/19/electric-bus-maker-bustech-plans-nsw-factory-to-meet-state-demand/)

Several Buses running peak morning and afternoon can be charged over night and in between making battery recharge times and range acceptable if the battery cost is low. The charging infrastructure for thousands of buses at the same time is possibly a big issue to resolve? May be the issue is the same as pointed out in peak times and charging points in some overseas locations.

Suspect Hydrogen to refuel quickly and to recharge/power while moving will be cheaper and reduce weight by more than halving the batteries required and especially if the lay off periods may not occur for many which run peak and non peak .

"Switching to electrified fleets seems like a no-brainer but why hasn’t that happened yet? In fact, Tesla unveiled its Semi truck (https://www.tesla.com/semi) back in 2017… what happened to it? Why isn’t it on the road yet?

Turns out, current EV technologies have quite a few critical issues that keep the electrification of commercial flee
ts from being viable — from operational, infrastructural, and dollar-and-cents perspectives.

Even the almighty Elon Musk can’t defy the law of physics. A closer look at the Tesla Semi will show us how current EV battery technologies are limited in their application and what we can do to make electrification viable at a commercial scale.

For example, let’s say a truck without a battery pack weighs 7 tons. That leaves us 29 tons for battery weight and payload. To cover a longer range so the truck doesn’t have to stop halfway to charge for hours (which is expensive because any minute a truck isn’t on the road is costing the trucking company money,) it’ll need a bigger battery — which means a smaller payload.
So you can either cover a greater range but carry a smaller payload or have a lighter battery pack, which requires that you sacrifice range to carry more payload. .......

This trade-off doesn’t make business sense when compared to diesel trucks, which can carry over 20 tons with a range of 900 miles — more than the 300-mile and 500-mile range of the two Tesla Semi variants.
Furthermore, today’s EV batteries come in a “monolithic” block — you can’t adjust the weight and size of the battery based on how far a truck needs to go on a particular trip.
While Tesla Semi’s 0-60 acceleration is impressive (but no truck driver will ever need it unless they want to get fired,) it left out a crucial piece of information that anyone in the trucking industry would want to know — what’s the weight of the empty truck (including the battery pack?)"

Link to whole yarn (https://www.tanktwo.com/why-tesla-semi-isnt-revolutionizing-the-trucking-industry/)

They are a fossil fuel based generator to extent the range and reduce the amount of batteries required for a Battery based truck which has several of the same issue as a Bus I think.

Homestar

20th February 2021, 05:34 PM

Tasmania have opened up an electric highway fast charging network, only for bitumin roads though.

Electric Highway Tasmania’s charging network boasts twelve 50kW charging stations across the state at Burnie, Devonport, Scottsdale, St Helens, Swansea, Derwent Bridge, Queenstown, Kempton, New Norfolk, Geeveston, Hobart, and Launceston, where the ceremony was eld.
Two ultra-rapid charging stations at Campbell Town and Kings Meadows are also part of the network, offering charging rates of up to 350kW.
“With Tasmania now being 100 per cent self-sufficient in renewable energy, we are ideally suited to benefitting from more electric vehicles in our state,” said Clive Attwater, the managing director of EHT.

Tasmania opens Electric Highway fast-charging network, paving way for EV rentals (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/02/19/tasmania-opens-electric-highway-fast-charging-network-paving-way-for-ev-rentals/)

Doesn’t change my mind or bank balance - won’t be affordable or viable for me within any timeframe I’m likely to buy one. By the time they are affordable enough they’ll be no point me buying one as I’ll be running out the last decade or so on whatever I have then. I don’t change vehicles often enough - I usually buy 15 to 20 year old vehicles and get 5 to 10 years out of them. Not sure what EV offerings will be viable to buy when they’re that old.

bob10

20th February 2021, 05:42 PM

Doesn’t change my mind or bank balance - won’t be affordable or viable for me within any timeframe I’m likely to buy one. By the time they are affordable enough they’ll be no point me buying one as I’ll be running out the last decade or so on whatever I have then. I don’t change vehicles often enough - I usually buy 15 to 20 year old vehicles and get 5 to 10 years out of them. Not sure what EV offerings will be viable to buy when they’re that old.

I honestly don't think any one is trying to make you do any thing you don't want to do. But there are many, many people in this country that need to get their head around this new technology, and they shouldn't be held back. Like it or not, this is the way the World is heading.

bob10

20th February 2021, 06:11 PM

Several Buses running peak morning and afternoon can be charged over night and in between making battery recharge times and range acceptable if the battery cost is low. The charging infrastructure for thousands of buses at the same time is possibly a big issue to resolve? May be the issue is the same as pointed out in peak times and charging points in some overseas locations.

Suspect Hydrogen to refuel quickly and to recharge/power while moving will be cheaper and reduce weight by more than halving the batteries required and especially if the lay off periods may not occur for many which run peak and non peak .

"Switching to electrified fleets seems like a no-brainer but why hasn’t that happened yet? In fact, Tesla unveiled its Semi truck (https://www.tesla.com/semi) back in 2017… what happened to it? Why isn’t it on the road yet?

Turns out, current EV technologies have quite a few critical issues that keep the electrification of commercial flee
ts from being viable — from operational, infrastructural, and dollar-and-cents perspectives.

Even the almighty Elon Musk can’t defy the law of physics. A closer look at the Tesla Semi will show us how current EV battery technologies are limited in their application and what we can do to make electrification viable at a commercial scale.

For example, let’s say a truck without a battery pack weighs 7 tons. That leaves us 29 tons for battery weight and payload. To cover a longer range so the truck doesn’t have to stop halfway to charge for hours (which is expensive because any minute a truck isn’t on the road is costing the trucking company money,) it’ll need a bigger battery — which means a smaller payload.
So you can either cover a greater range but carry a smaller payload or have a lighter battery pack, which requires that you sacrifice range to carry more payload. .......

This trade-off doesn’t make business sense when compared to diesel trucks, which can carry over 20 tons with a range of 900 miles — more than the 300-mile and 500-mile range of the two Tesla Semi variants.
Furthermore, today’s EV batteries come in a “monolithic” block — you can’t adjust the weight and size of the battery based on how far a truck needs to go on a particular trip.
While Tesla Semi’s 0-60 acceleration is impressive (but no truck driver will ever need it unless they want to get fired,) it left out a crucial piece of information that anyone in the trucking industry would want to know — what’s the weight of the empty truck (including the battery pack?)"

Link to whole yarn (https://www.tanktwo.com/why-tesla-semi-isnt-revolutionizing-the-trucking-industry/)

They are a fossil fuel based generator to extent the range and reduce the amount of batteries required for a Battery based truck which has several of the same issue as a Bus I think.

Now that the companies like BHP are focusing their business around the materials needed for renewable energy, and EV batteries, and the US and EU have decided they must push ahead with renewables and EV's, those problems will be overcome. Just a matter of time. If Australia doesn't get on board early, we will fall into the usual trap of relying on the rest of the world to supply us with the wherewithall to have our own EV industry. We have the expertise and knowledge in this country to be able to export EV's and EV technology to the world,if given a chance to develop same, instead of the other way around. Everyone cried when our car industry closed down. Now is the chance to build something worth while in the EV industry, from square one. I don't know, is it the Australian inferiority complex that's holding us back, or an out of touch leadership?

Homestar

20th February 2021, 07:40 PM

I honestly don't think any one is trying to make you do any thing you don't want to do. But there are many, many people in this country that need to get their head around this new technology, and they shouldn't be held back. Like it or not, this is the way the World is heading.

My head is all over the tech - that’s not the issue and I don’t think you’re giving people in general the credit they deserve. You can’t force people to uptake a tech they don’t want because it is too expensive and doesn’t meet their needs. The world will head where people want it. EV sales in Australia suggest that will be a slow shift. Go buy yourself an EV and I’ll keep driving a Camry or my 101.

scarry

20th February 2021, 07:58 PM

Eevo

20th February 2021, 08:31 PM

You can’t force people to uptake a tech they don’t want because it is too expensive and doesn’t meet their needs.

nail on the head.

scarry

20th February 2021, 08:52 PM

You can’t force people to uptake a tech they don’t want because it is too expensive and doesn’t meet their needs.

But thats what most of the pollies in Europe think they are gonna do.

And some of the vehicle manufacturers in Europe think they are going to do the same.

I see Toyota are saying if Japan went to all EV's,there is no where near enough power to charge them all,and it will be decades before the infrastructure for charging, and power will be available.

Eevo

20th February 2021, 08:59 PM

EV are paperweights in texas at the moment

Homestar

20th February 2021, 09:01 PM

EV are paperweights in texas at the moment

But so are ICE vehicles - no power, no pumps running at the Servos. But you can at least drain another vehicle or your lawn mower and get going again.

Homestar

20th February 2021, 09:02 PM

I see Toyota are saying if Japan went to all EV's,there is no where near enough power to charge them all,and it will be decades before the infrastructure for charging, and power will be available.

Would be the same situation in any country - no one can build the infrastructure required in the time frames the pollys are talking about.

scarry

20th February 2021, 09:07 PM

Would be the same situation in any country - no one can build the infrastructure required in the time frames the pollys are talking about.

Shows they have NFI what is going on in the real world.
Same as half the pollies here.[bighmmm]

Oh,and in the same article, it also said, if the country does go to full EV,most of the needed power will have to come from fossil fuels, as there is no viable alternative.

Eevo

20th February 2021, 09:10 PM

But so are ICE vehicles - no power, no pumps running at the Servos. But you can at least drain another vehicle or your lawn mower and get going again.

jerry cans. i keep about 100l in the shed as spare. cant do that with an EV
and i dont know about texas but here most service stations have a backup generator.

goingbush

20th February 2021, 09:32 PM

Would be the same situation in any country - no one can build the infrastructure required in the time frames the pollys are talking about.

Why do people think EV need more power infrastructure than internal combustion, It takes as much electricity to produce the amount of fuel required to drive an equivalent EV for the same distance, maybe not in Australia because we import all of our fuel but who would not produce their own electricity with solar , that will cover most of us. Look at all the money we wont be sending overseas on buying fuel from the Middle East.

goingbush

20th February 2021, 09:34 PM

jerry cans. i keep about 100l in the shed as spare. cant do that with an EV
and i dont know about texas but here most service stations have a backup generator.

I make my own solar power to run my EV , way more than I need for my car,
Who makes their own fuel at home ? Fish and chip oil is finite, the sun is forever.

Texas argument is ridiculous, their oil refineries are shut down and will take weeks to get back on line.

Eevo

20th February 2021, 09:38 PM

goingbush

20th February 2021, 09:39 PM

no sun in texas at the moment.

No oil either, their refineries have ground to a halt.

Eevo

20th February 2021, 09:50 PM

No oil either, their refineries have ground to a halt.

true but oil is easy to store.
electricity not so much

johnp38

20th February 2021, 09:59 PM

I believe retirees with money will buy self drive shopping trolleys to keep their independance as their reflexes and eyes slow down.

I most certainly will be one of them if the used prices are agreeable to my pocket if/when I am in need.

I currently drive to the shops and back 3 times a week (15 kms in total) and only other time is 460k round trip up north occasionaly to socialise.

Basically one tank a month does me fine so I always top up when fuel is close to the $1 mark and skip the price bumps.

Am sure there are others like me and a once or twice a week topup from a 10 amp slowmo wall socket in garage will be more than adequate.

101RRS

20th February 2021, 10:19 PM

no sun in texas at the moment.

Actually in the Texas grid it is the gas fired generators that have caused their problems. Wind is actually supplying more power to the Texas grid than normal and surprise surprise, solar is only a couple of % less than normal - so it it old style power generation that is not holding up under the deep freeze.

Was covered in a news grab on the news earlier today.

Eevo

20th February 2021, 10:38 PM

Actually in the Texas grid it is the gas fired generators that have caused their problems. Wind is actually supplying more power to the Texas grid than normal and surprise surprise, solar is only a couple of % less than normal - so it it old style power generation that is not holding up under the deep freeze.

Was covered in a news grab on the news earlier today.
all of that is incorrect.

solar is producing close to nothing as panels are under inches of snow
wind is producing about 1GW out of about 30GW
gas is being diverted by law away from gas power plants
as far as ive seen, nuclear is fine.

Homestar

20th February 2021, 10:58 PM

jerry cans. i keep about 100l in the shed as spare. cant do that with an EV
and i dont know about texas but here most service stations have a backup generator.

City servos don’t have back up gens - we supply about 2 a week to servos that lose power. With your 100 litre of fuel I could charge an EV easily with a gen as well. 👍

Eevo

20th February 2021, 11:42 PM

With your 100 litre of fuel I could charge an EV easily with a gen as well. 👍
fair point.

rebuttal:

refueling car, 5min
recharging EV, couple of hours?

101RRS

20th February 2021, 11:55 PM

all of that is incorrect.

So you are the expert [thumbsupbig] - I am not and don't pretend to be - I was just doing a Bob in relaying what is in the media but dont have the link to support what was being reported by the Texas news.

Oh and nuclear crashed too but you are the expert.

Eevo

21st February 2021, 12:05 AM

So you are the expert [thumbsupbig] - I am not and don't pretend to be - I was just doing a Bob in relaying what is in the media but dont have the link to support what was being reported by the Texas news.

Oh and nuclear crashed too but you are the expert.

you made 2 mistakes, one big, one small. bob and media.

you got any links to nuclear falling over? ive seen it in the media but cant find any first hand references.

JDNSW

21st February 2021, 05:25 AM

you made 2 mistakes, one big, one small. bob and media.

you got any links to nuclear falling over? ive seen it in the media but cant find any first hand references.

Deep in the heart of Texas’ collapsing power grid | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/even-power-disasters-are-bigger-in-texas-heres-why/)

Eevo

21st February 2021, 06:56 AM

Deep in the heart of Texas’ collapsing power grid | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/even-power-disasters-are-bigger-in-texas-heres-why/)

thanks for the link but nothing concrete in there.

NavyDiver

21st February 2021, 07:47 AM

I make my own solar power to run my EV , way more than I need for my car,
Who makes their own fuel at home ? Fish and chip oil is finite, the sun is forever.

Texas argument is ridiculous, their oil refineries are shut down and will take weeks to get back on line.

The US southern states Nuclear, Gas and other power sources did not have ability to cope with Canadian style winter weather. "“We never imagined a day where hospitals wouldn’t have water,” Greg , the director of Austin Water, said this week."

Your self sufficiency is commendable mate.

Infrastructure and notably Secured and effective Infrastructure is needed for the masses [bigwhistle]

The few Jerry cans are a breathing space as is a long range tank or my few big batteries I have at work. The irony in Texas is now the power is being restored several hot water systems which have no water have caused fires which cannot be put out as there is no water. Food is scarce "Without water and after days of power outages, many Texans have lost perishable food and are struggling to get more."

Texas has had some snow before. It seem to be climate change trend to me. I am not a scientist. We do need effective and efficient options before we can move to a non pollution generating cars, trucks, boats, trains....... The billion being invested is occurring as effective options are required fast.

After that rant a little some EV trivia. .

BY.D. hooked up with a Aussie (Nexport Already posted by Bob relating to buses. Rich Lister straps in for $700m electric vehicle hub (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/rich-lister-straps-in-for-700m-electric-vehicle-hub-20201016-p565pz) )

I read this morning. The Motor Show in April will add four more right hand drive options. I agree many options are not perfect for every application or use. BYD Han arrives in Australia - motoring.com.au (https://www.motoring.com.au/byd-han-arrives-in-australia-128354/)

This link has Averages Survey of Motor Vehicle Use, Australia, 12 Months ended 30 June 2020 | Australian Bureau of Statistics (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/survey-motor-vehicle-use-australia/latest-release)

We all know averages are a fiction of sorts as 99% do more or less [biggrin] the Average 11,000 ish km for passenger cars is interesting as it may allow most people to consider if range anxiety is a once a year or so event or an every day. For most people I think a cost competitive BEV will be a option sooner rather than latter.

Eevo

21st February 2021, 07:58 AM

on a different note. im on my way to earning my first tesla. i've started earning bitcoins. and if the current value is maintained, i'll be able to afford one in about 100 years...

edit: miscalculated. afford one in about 30 years. assuming they are 100k.

goingbush

21st February 2021, 08:05 AM

whatever the case , the argument is moot.

ICE powered vehicles are on the way out & in 15 years you'll have Bucklys chance of buying one.
Argue for oil all you like it wont help.

NavyDiver

21st February 2021, 09:36 AM

whatever the case , the argument is moot.

ICE powered vehicles are on the way out & in 15 years you'll have Bucklys chance of buying one.
Argue for oil all you like it wont help.
This was interesting

Here’s what we know about hydrogen-powered fuel cells for heavy-duty trucking:

They are not in commercial production.
Onboard hydrogen storage is far less efficient than battery-powered trucks.
Heavy-duty truck fuel cell adoption is projected to be just 2.5% by 2030.
Battery-electric truck proponents call fuel cells unflattering names.

.None of that has changed. Yet, something seems different. For starters, car and truck makers and Tier 1 suppliers are investing billions of dollars in fuel cell technology. Blank check companies are raising hundreds of millions of dollars to target startup and growth-stage companies across the electric vehicle spectrum. Publicly traded fuel cell entities are riding double- and triple-digit growth in their share prices.“I think there is significant momentum,” Chris Rovik, executive program manager of Toyota (NYSE: TM (https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/TM/overview)) North America’s Advanced Product Planning Office, told FreightWaves in an interview. “I think all the truck [manufacturers] realize they need to have zero-emission solutions. They’re starting to understand the benefits of fuel cells in certain use cases.”

goingbush

21st February 2021, 10:47 AM

This was interesting

Here’s what we know about hydrogen-powered fuel cells for heavy-duty trucking:

They are not in commercial production.
Onboard hydrogen storage is far less efficient than battery-powered trucks.
Heavy-duty truck fuel cell adoption is projected to be just 2.5% by 2030.
Battery-electric truck proponents call fuel cells unflattering names.

.None of that has changed. Yet, something seems different. For starters, car and truck makers and Tier 1 suppliers are investing billions of dollars in fuel cell technology. Blank check companies are raising hundreds of millions of dollars to target startup and growth-stage companies across the electric vehicle spectrum. Publicly traded fuel cell entities are riding double- and triple-digit growth in their share prices.“I think there is significant momentum,” Chris Rovik, executive program manager of Toyota (NYSE: TM (https://www.barchart.com/stocks/quotes/TM/overview)) North America’s Advanced Product Planning Office, told FreightWaves in an interview. “I think all the truck [manufacturers] realize they need to have zero-emission solutions. They’re starting to understand the benefits of fuel cells in certain use cases.”

I have no problem with fuel cell technology. its a race between that and 'solid state' or other future battery tech . bring it on.

Old Farang

21st February 2021, 02:16 PM

thanks for the link but nothing concrete in there.

There is no concrete cause the water is all frozen. [bigsad]

Eevo

21st February 2021, 02:31 PM

interesting to read, that aust is vulnerable to the same issue. our equipment isnt winterised and we have our electricity peaks in summer too. we dont have a law that leaves gas generators without gas tho.

Homestar

21st February 2021, 03:35 PM

whatever the case , the argument is moot.

ICE powered vehicles are on the way out & in 15 years you'll have Bucklys chance of buying one.
Argue for oil all you like it wont help.

15 years - no chance. If they started putting in the infrastructure now, it wouldn’t be ready in time and there is very little going on in the way of large scale infrastructure to support us all having EV’s. We’d need around double the power we currently do as well, which won’t happen in 15 years either nor will adoption of solar and batteries into the vast majority of homes that would be required to work.

Globally while car manufacturers say they are switching to EV’s the reality of being able to power them will push these time frames out by decades - countries with a decent uptake of EV’s due to government subsidies, etc are starting to feel the squeeze on power already. And remember a lot of places don’t have the vast quantities of sunshine we enjoy here - in Europe, they won’t be able to have home solar charging EVs in the Winter - there isn’t enough to charge a car with each day.

Australia has just on 1,000,000 homes with solar - and that’s taken decades, although things are speeding up no end, you’d need to do 500,000 homes a year from now to get to where is needed in 15 years - I think the numbers closer to 25/30 years in reality. And who’s paying for it all - will the government just say they’ll stick solar and a 15KWh battery system in every house? I don’t think so, and I’d say around 95% of the population couldn’t afford it.

No one who pushes these unreadably short time frames offers anything in how the infrastructure is going to cope with everyone switching to EV’s - I love the dedication, but the reality just doesn’t match sorry.

I’m not anti EV - you know that, but I just don’t see how we’re going to charge them all is my point in that sort of timeframe - no one does.

grey_ghost

21st February 2021, 03:47 PM

In Jan 2021 I had solar panels installed on my house.. Imagine my surprise to be told that I cannot export to the Grid.. Why I questioned the provider "the infrastructure in your area isn't up to it"..

As the crow flies - I am 53km from the Melbourne CBD.

By road - I am 75km from the Melbourne CBD.

I'm not sure where all this magic clean electricity is coming from for all of these EV's.

I've done my bit with the solar - but the way it stands I would have to charge my vehicle during the day (at home).. Which kind of defeats the entire purpose.

I just don't see the infrastructure coming anytime soon.. I don't have natural gas, street lights, footpaths, MAIL DELIVERED.... Mobile phone reception is very patchy at best, and my NBN runs at 13mbps - due to issues with the local infrastructure.

I love the idea of EV - but Australia is a bloody big place, and we just don't have the infrastructure for it (yet). I'm only 53km from the Melbourne CBD - imagine poor sods out in Marree or Ceduna, or Broken Hill or...

bob10

21st February 2021, 03:50 PM

My head is all over the tech - that’s not the issue and I don’t think you’re giving people in general the credit they deserve. You can’t force people to uptake a tech they don’t want because it is too expensive and doesn’t meet their needs. The world will head where people want it. EV sales in Australia suggest that will be a slow shift. Go buy yourself an EV and I’ll keep driving a Camry or my 101.

You have misunderstood my post. I don't think people aren't on top of the technology, I just think people of a certain age are stuck in their comfort zone, and refuse to come out. I look at it this way. When the horseless carriage came about, people used to walk in front of them with flags. EV's are at the flag stage, but the momentum is building. As for forcing people to take up a new tech, I agree it is far too expensive at the moment, but as with the horseless carriage, how many people drive a surry with a fringe on top nowadays? I will buy an EV when the price is right, but will persevere with my old D2 until then.

There are many questions to be answered, like tradie utes, and tow vehicles for caravans [ a whole industry needs the answers] Trucks etc. But you are not giving the people who are the moving force behind this EV revolution the credit they deserve. But that's ok, no one thought the Wright brothers would get off the ground either. Cheers.

JDNSW

21st February 2021, 04:08 PM

I hate to be pedantic, but electric cars predated the Wright brothers by about a decade.

Homestar

21st February 2021, 04:14 PM

You have misunderstood my post. I don't think people aren't on top of the technology, I just think people of a certain age are stuck in their comfort zone, and refuse to come out. I look at it this way. When the horseless carriage came about, people used to walk in front of them with flags. EV's are at the flag stage, but the momentum is building. As for forcing people to take up a new tech, I agree it is far too expensive at the moment, but as with the horseless carriage, how many people drive a surry with a fringe on top nowadays? I will buy an EV when the price is right, but will persevere with my old D2 until then.

There are many questions to be answered, like tradie utes, and tow vehicles for caravans [ a whole industry needs the answers] Trucks etc. But you are not giving the people who are the moving force behind this EV revolution the credit they deserve. But that's ok, no one thought the Wright brothers would get off the ground either. Cheers.

I don’t give some the credit because I understand the tech, and what’s involved to make it work - my whole career has been power - and a lot of it now with the supply authorities so I know power distribution, how much power is needed to do what these people want, etc - you’re missing the point, not me. Comparing it to the Wright brothers is BS too - that line is peddled by anyone who believes others aren’t getting on board an idea they have - particularly Electric Jesus Zealots.

It’s the same old rhetoric - ‘You have questions I can’t answer about EV’s so you’re an EV hater’ - kind of like ‘All wood burns states Sir Bedivere, therefore he concludes all that burns is wood’ - in the immortal lines on Monty Python “This is of course pure bull****”

bob10

21st February 2021, 04:29 PM

I don’t give some the credit because I understand the tech, and what’s involved to make it work - my whole career has been power - and a lot of it now with the supply authorities so I know power distribution, how much power is needed to do what these people want, etc - you’re missing the point, not me. Comparing it to the Wright brothers is BS too - that line is peddled by anyone who believes others aren’t getting on board an idea they have - particularly Electric Jesus Zealots.

It’s the same old rhetoric - ‘You have questions I can’t answer about EV’s so you’re an EV hater’ - kind of like ‘All wood burns states Sir Bedivere, therefore he concludes all that burns is wood’ - in the immortal lines on Monty Python “This is of course pure bull****”

Well I'm sorry but I can but assume you are in denial. I'm not going to make this personal except to say your post is mostly a desperate attempt to remain relevant in a fast moving situation you have no control over.

Homestar

21st February 2021, 04:50 PM

Well I'm sorry but I can but assume you are in denial. I'm not going to make this personal except to say your post is mostly a desperate attempt to remain relevant in a fast moving situation you have no control over.

That’s just trolling - tut tut - you should know better.

Also confirms my theory about people not being able to answer my genuine questions on the subject but would rather divert the attention so they don’t have to.

Poor attempt, F- You can do better, see the Headmaster after School.

WhiteD3

21st February 2021, 05:47 PM

I'm 59 next birthday and the "plan" that SWMBO and I have is to retire in the next 2 years or so, buy a D250 or D300 Defender, a 2.5t ish a semi off road van and hit the road, see the sites, take some pics. I'd like to think I could carry on doing this into my mid 70s, finances and health (Back, knees, eyes, brain) permitting.

but.............

The Defender will need to be replaced in my mid to late 60s, say 2028?

My guess of our motoring future will be a small EV for day to day. Maybe a Kona or ID.3. Charged at home from a battery charged from roof top solar. For highways and byways a PHEV Defender or alike. Big battery, small petrol engine to charge the batteries. Maybe a hydrogen or synthetic fuelled engine.

Porsche to become synthetic fuel-maker from 2022 - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/porsche-to-become-synthetic-fuel-maker-from-2022-128597/)

I don't see any real issues with any of this. Change? Yes of course but my grandfather passed at 99 and had not had a horse for a very long time. He adapted and so will I. It's not like I have a choice............so

The other thing to think about is assuming we will have a choice. Climate change denier or no, techno-phobe or ostrich (think left leaning politician), this is where we are going. The US is back on board with the Europeans re EVs and pollution; little old Australia will just get dragged along with it whether we want or like the change or not.

Bring it on I say.

goingbush

21st February 2021, 06:16 PM

15 years - no chance. If they started putting in the infrastructure now, it wouldn’t be ready in time and there is very little going on in the way of large scale infrastructure to support us all having EV’s. We’d need around double the power we currently do as well, which won’t happen in 15 years either nor will adoption of solar and batteries into the vast majority of homes that would be required to work.

Globally while car manufacturers say they are switching to EV’s the reality of being able to power them will push these time frames out by decades - countries with a decent uptake of EV’s due to government subsidies, etc are starting to feel the squeeze on power already. And remember a lot of places don’t have the vast quantities of sunshine we enjoy here - in Europe, they won’t be able to have home solar charging EVs in the Winter - there isn’t enough to charge a car with each day.

Australia has just on 1,000,000 homes with solar - and that’s taken decades, although things are speeding up no end, you’d need to do 500,000 homes a year from now to get to where is needed in 15 years - I think the numbers closer to 25/30 years in reality. And who’s paying for it all - will the government just say they’ll stick solar and a 15KWh battery system in every house? I don’t think so, and I’d say around 95% of the population couldn’t afford it.

No one who pushes these unreadably short time frames offers anything in how the infrastructure is going to cope with everyone switching to EV’s - I love the dedication, but the reality just doesn’t match sorry.

I’m not anti EV - you know that, but I just don’t see how we’re going to charge them all is my point in that sort of timeframe - no one does.

Australia has no choice in the matter, the world isnt going to be making ICE cars, where will they come from, its not like they will be made here .

Homestar

21st February 2021, 06:46 PM

Australia has no choice in the matter, the world isnt going to be making ICE cars, where will they come from, its not like they will be made here .

I doubt that will happen as quickly as they say - as per my last post countries are already struggling with the infrastructure - car manufacturers can’t make cars people can’t use.

That’s my whole point and I’ve heard nothing from any proponent answering this fundamental question - where’s the power coming from? Happy to hear opinions on this but as someone who works in this field I’ve not heard anything that is actually possible in the timeframe you’re talking about.

Change my mind - I’m all ears - just answer than one question please.

Also, if you’re right then that’s just new cars - given the average age of a car here is around 10 years then that to consider too. I think ICE vehicle will hold their value better if all OEM’s drop the tech - I’ll still have a 97 Camry going then anyway. [emoji16]

scarry

21st February 2021, 07:42 PM

That’s my whole point and I’ve heard nothing from any proponent answering this fundamental question - where’s the power coming from? [emoji16]

Its not just the power, its the infrastructure to get the power to hundreds of thousands of charging points all over the countryside, and thats just in Aus.

For those that do a few Km a week,solar and a battery may workout, for those that do hundreds of Km a week, plus run a work or second vehicle that does up to around 800 to 1000km a week, its not going to happen.
Not with the tech we have today, or any tech that is suddenly going to appear in the next few years.

101RRS

21st February 2021, 08:56 PM

Australia has no choice in the matter, the world isnt going to be making ICE cars, where will they come from, its not like they will be made here .

Oh I think they will if there is the market - for sure manufacturers will make the EVs for the EU but also make good old ICEs for the rest of the world like South America, Africa, Australia and most of Asia (all of it from the Med east).

As the discussion on here has moved back and forth, EVs are great for metropolitan areas of first world countries but not for a long long time will they be suitable remote and the poorer areas of the world where the EV infrastructure is just not going to happen.

Old Farang

21st February 2021, 09:13 PM

Eevo

21st February 2021, 11:56 PM

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NavyDiver

22nd February 2021, 07:22 AM

Well, here's a few people that will not be buying an EV any time soon!

Mapped: The 1.2 Billion People Without Access to Electricity - Visual Capitalist (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-billion-people-without-access-to-electricity/)

The price of fuel in those areas are possibly going to give the easiest option for several newer current and evolving technology. The everything about hydrogen interview with he head of Anglo American pod cast I posted had a interesting take on this topic.

A off the grid housing project and remote town, mine sites support the possibility/probability local electrification via renewables and 'storage' can help the billion plus who have no or very unreliable electricity supply's will cost a lot less than poles and power lines to everywhere which we know will not happen.

The billion of dollar+++ cost plus 100s of millions in maintenance in Texas might a interesting case study in why centralized distribution networks just might be old school[bigwhistle] The South Oz black outs, brown outs would be another.

This one in Chiang Mai, Thailand (https://projects.archiexpo.com/project-212014.html) is several years old. It could charge Going Bushes truck or any EV and FCEV possibly. Noting the cost of this one may or may not be a solution for the billions you flagged. Charge for free from any spare solar PV is a goal I want to kick.[thumbsupbig]

Edit- the house website. Phi Suea House (https://www.phisueahouse.com/)

goingbush

22nd February 2021, 09:02 AM

Oh I think they will if there is the market - for sure manufacturers will make the EVs for the EU but also make good old ICEs for the rest of the world like South America, Africa, Australia and most of Asia (all of it from the Med east).

As the discussion on here has moved back and forth, EVs are great for metropolitan areas of first world countries but not for a long long time will they be suitable remote and the poorer areas of the world where the EV infrastructure is just not going to happen.

Good Luck .

They Make great ICE Trucks , Utilitarian 4x4 vehicles and no frills 2WD Cars in China, Turkey , Brazil , Africa, India etc for their domestic markets and the 3rd world. But none are anywhere near ADR compliant and be lucky to be EU1 let alone EU4 ,5 or 6 , nor could be economically made thus for this tiny little market of ours.

PhilipA

22nd February 2021, 09:41 AM

There are several Chinese cars and utes and yes even buses being sold in Australia right now and they conform.
I wonder what happens if you are towing your 3.5 tonnes with your phev in undulating country and run out of battery and you are left with the piddling little 4. Cylinder only.

I also note that theHyundai Kona has a tiny tow limit so maybe old diesels will still be popular.

Regards PhilipA

vnx205

22nd February 2021, 04:21 PM

.. ... .... ..

I also note that the Hyundai Kona has a tiny tow limit so maybe old diesels will still be popular.

Regards PhilipA

That gives me a perfect excuse to talk about my 2016 Toyota Camry Altise Hybrid as it also has a tiny tow limit.

I had been reluctant to write about it in this thread because I have formed the opinion that it is quite wrong to think about a Hybrid Camry as an EV. Most people would not think of a Formula One car as an EV, and it seems to me that the Camry has more in common with them than what most of us think of as an EV.

The F1 cars have a kinetic energy recovery system that uses energy recovered from braking to give a power boost when needed and that is almost the same as the Camry and other Toyota Hybrids. The battery is not there to allow you to travel any great distance on electric power. It is just there to recover energy that would normally be lost when braking and which can the be used to supplement the power from the ICE, just like an F1.

The combination of the Atkinson Cycle ICE and a couple of electric motors works really well. The Atkinson Cycle gives better fuel economy that an Otto Cycle, but there is a small loss of torque which is more than made up for by the electric motor.

The CV transmission is quite unlike other CV transmissions and seems to work brilliantly without some of the reliability problems of some other systems.

I didn't buy a hybrid to save money. I didn't buy it to save the planet. A lot of my driving isn't even in the sort of conditions where hybrids are at their best. I bought it a year ago because Toyota has been refining the system for about 23 years, taxis have been running Hybrid Camrys for several years and because I couldn't resist owning something that is so clever and works so well.

However, I don't think of it as an EV.

Tombie

22nd February 2021, 05:07 PM

But it’s only 155kw [emoji41][emoji2957] and a Camry [emoji56]

scarry

22nd February 2021, 08:22 PM

That gives me a perfect excuse to talk about my 2016 Toyota Camry Altise Hybrid as it also has a tiny tow limit.

I had been reluctant to write about it in this thread because I have formed the opinion that it is quite wrong to think about a Hybrid Camry as an EV. Most people would not think of a Formula One car as an EV, and it seems to me that the Camry has more in common with them than what most of us think of as an EV.

The F1 cars have a kinetic energy recovery system that uses energy recovered from braking to give a power boost when needed and that is almost the same as the Camry and other Toyota Hybrids. The battery is not there to allow you to travel any great distance on electric power. It is just there to recover energy that would normally be lost when braking and which can the be used to supplement the power from the ICE, just like an F1.

The combination of the Atkinson Cycle ICE and a couple of electric motors works really well. The Atkinson Cycle gives better fuel economy that an Otto Cycle, but there is a small loss of torque which is more than made up for by the electric motor.

The CV transmission is quite unlike other CV transmissions and seems to work brilliantly without some of the reliability problems of some other systems.

I didn't buy a hybrid to save money. I didn't buy it to save the planet. A lot of my driving isn't even in the sort of conditions where hybrids are at their best. I bought it a year ago because Toyota has been refining the system for about 23 years, taxis have been running Hybrid Camrys for several years and because I couldn't resist owning something that is so clever and works so well.

However, I don't think of it as an EV.

A brother of mine has one as well, they really like it.
Although being in the NT,it doesnt mind a drink at 135km/hr...

A mate has the Hybrid RAV 4,he loves it as well.
The Hybrid Kluga will be out shortly.

I wish the tech was in their vans,we need a new one now, and I would give it a go.

PhilipA

23rd February 2021, 04:10 PM

You missed the point a bit with the Camry Hybrid. Nice Car.

but I am talking about PHEVs like the new Range Rover PHEV. Ones you plug in and get maybe 50 kms range if you are lucky on battery power. Different to the Camry concept.

Then you go onto petrol or diesel power. And the performance is quoted using a combination of ICE and Electricity. When you have used the battery power it is gone except for a small amount of regen.

regards PhilipA

NavyDiver

23rd February 2021, 08:54 PM

A bit big for us perhaps? This fuel cell tech is cool at sub minus 30!

http://https://www.seetao.com/details/64931.html

"The Hongyan heavy truck equipped with the PROME P390 fuel cell system successfully completed the calibration of the fuel cell system at -30℃, even in the extreme environment of -35℃. This may be the most abundant vehicle model in China so far. The winter calibration of hydrogen fuel heavy trucks has been carried out.” said the engineer of the fuel cell system development department.
Start at more than minus 30℃ Texas could have used a few of these last week [biggrin]

169003

Old Farang

25th February 2021, 07:34 PM

The hype, high hopes and sobering reality of the future of car travelThe hype, high hopes and sobering reality of the future of car travel - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-25/electric-autonomous-cars-hype-v-reality-car-sharing/13178910)

A future of driverless, electric cars is just around the corner, right?
We're shifting to more sustainable solutions like car sharing, right? Right?
There's been lots of hype about car travel and the promise of greener, more convenient, and cheaper ways to get around.
But where are these concepts actually at right now? And what are the complications and challenges holding them back?
We spoke to some experts to get their take.

Electric vehiclesThe good news is sales of electric cars are rising.
But there's a catch.
They still only make up about 2.6 per cent of new cars sold each year — that's about 2.1 million cars.
China is buying a lot of those new electric cars. About 5 per cent of their new car sales are electric, in the European Union it's 3.5 per cent.
Australia's at just 0.6 per cent.

Like driverless cars there are challenges standing in the way of an electric car revolution.
There's the need for infrastructure like charging stations (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-14/calls-for-fast-charging-network-to-jump-start-electric-cars/10811416), and there are concerns electric vehicle taxes will slow the take-up (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2020-11-26/ev-tax-slow-electric-vehicle-report/12891524) of the technology.
ABC science and environment reporter Nick Kilvert says if you're charging from the grid in Australia, you're contributing to the burning of fossil fuels (though some states have a better mix of coal versus renewable power).
"How green an electric car is, compared to a petrol car, depends on how green the grid is you're charging it [from]," Kilvert says.

windsock

26th February 2021, 01:09 PM

Hyundai have announced in the last day that they are recalling 10s of thousands of EVs worldwide due to fire problems in their battery packs. Replacement packs are reported to cost USD11,000 each. 82,000 cars was one figure I read. Models and years are vague depending on news items but Kona 2018-2020, Ioniq, 2017-2020, and Elec City Buses were listed.

The cells used are apparently the LG Chem batteries. GM were recalling 70,000 Chevy Bolt using the same cells.

DazzaTD5

26th February 2021, 02:36 PM

So when we are all driving EVs what will change?
Will our dependency on crude be less? how is that even possible?
Will the standard of living in third world countries where they mine cobolt (as just one example) be better? how is that even possible?
Will the planet be somehow greener? again how is that even possible?

I see the advantage of cleaner better air quality in inner city areas if all vehicles and delivery trucks are all EV.
I see no other advantage

My Perentie is over 30 years old, original engine, gearbox, drivetrain, its fuel economy is on par with modern vehicles. How much of a burden has it been on the planet when compared to a EV that needs its battery replaced every what 6 years or so? whats the current lifespan on EV battery packs for a modern EV?
Or do we simply throw it away and consume more and more.

The problem isnt internal combustion engine vehicles, its the never ending disposable consumerism that is pushed upon people by profiteering corporation to the total detriment of the planet.

goingbush

26th February 2021, 10:01 PM

cripesamighty

1st March 2021, 11:56 AM

Saw this article the other day in a mate's AOPA magazine written by a physicist from Arizona State University (online link attached below). It makes for some interesting reading in regards to future applications of EV's in helicopters, VTOL, and fixed wing aircraft. Hint: not so good for helicopters just yet.

Technology: hp versus kW - AOPA (https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2021/january/pilot/technology-hp-vs-kw)

JDNSW

1st March 2021, 02:55 PM

Not taken into account in that discussion is the relative mass of the electric motor vs the piston/turbine motor. I suspect that the electric motor is lighter than the piston engine, but heavier than the turbine, but I very much doubt the difference is enough to affect the conclusions of the article.

Similarly, the fact that the electric motor is smoother than the piston engine may enable a slight reduction is airframe mass, but again, won't be enough to affect the conclusion.

akelly

2nd March 2021, 06:50 PM

there are already electric helicopters flying. Physicists aren't engineers.

cripesamighty

2nd March 2021, 08:47 PM

there are already electric helicopters flying. Physicists aren't engineers.

Yep, but as mentioned the current crop of EV helicopters have crappy range compared to VTOL and fixed wing aircraft of similar size. This is due to most of the rotor's energy being devoted to lift and not propulsion. The tech will eventually catch up to improve range.

JDNSW

3rd March 2021, 11:12 AM

Yep, but as mentioned the current crop of EV helicopters have crappy range compared..... or payload or both.

One other point I failed to mention where EVs have an advantage is the lack of need to have cooling air inlets/outlets, although this is likely to be even less of a drag reduction factor. Some IC aircraft have been able to produce actual thrust from the cooling system greater than the drag of the cooling system.

cripesamighty

3rd March 2021, 03:47 PM

The P-51 Mustang's belly radiator design springs to mind, for generating thrust from the cooling system via the Meredith Effect. I watched a good explanation of this on 'Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles' YouTube channel. It's an interesting way to spend 30 mins!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqiG9VHuBbM