EV general discussion

[PhilipA]

So much for EVs getting cheaper eh!

Skyrocketing Lithium Costs Could Drive Up EV Prices | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43952/skyrocketing-lithium-costs-could-drive-up-ev-prices)

Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Don’t know if this fits in here, but it’s electric and it’s a vehicle, just not one designed to drive on roads

19C-1E Electric Mini Excavator - JCB (https://www.jcbcea.com.au/machines/mini-excavators/19c-1e-electric-mini-excavator/)

At around the $80000 mark, not cheap, but savings on fuel and servicing and 85% battery life after 10 years maybe worthwhile
Also save the ears and nose from having noise and fumes[emoji1531][emoji1531]

Good for urban use where noise and fumes are a concern - and power is close at hand [emoji41]

All our teaspoons are diesel simply because of where they operate.

[Homestar]

Don’t know if this fits in here, but it’s electric and it’s a vehicle, just not one designed to drive on roads

19C-1E Electric Mini Excavator - JCB (https://www.jcbcea.com.au/machines/mini-excavators/19c-1e-electric-mini-excavator/)

At around the $80000 mark, not cheap, but savings on fuel and servicing and 85% battery life after 10 years maybe worthwhile
Also save the ears and nose from having noise and fumes[emoji1531][emoji1531]

They are used underground and in enclosed areas for fume reduction. They are twice the price of a diesel offering so a specialised bit of kit - they charge off a 32 amp 3 phase supply so you need decent power on hand to recharge them. 'A full days work per charge' is based on going through 3 battery packs supplied with the unit, but they fit the market they are designed for very well.

[NavyDiver]

So much for EVs getting cheaper eh!

Skyrocketing Lithium Costs Could Drive Up EV Prices | The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/43952/skyrocketing-lithium-costs-could-drive-up-ev-prices)

Regards PhilipA
Money to be made I see[biggrin] One of my spodumene stock is rocking. Chip prices and fuel kicking our ICE versions a little bit as well.

Price of EVs is getting less as mass production kicks in . Supply issues noted! Not needing to bet where to park some investment cash at the moment[biggrin]

https://images.axios.com/Sqn1BCbIKlzDcDgVN0eSkNgWpBk=/2022/01/19/1642600523006.png

[NavyDiver]

Love a round up that inserted a 2021 WOW FCEV Landrover I missed. Only a test so I guess not that much of a surprise

FCEV future: Every brand working on hydrogen fuel cell tech - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/fcev-future-every-brand-working-on-hydrogen-fuel-cell-tech/)

"The most capable and rugged of the Land Rover family could soon have the lightest footprint. Land Rover has announced it will begin a trial of FCEV tech in the Defender (https://evcentral.com.au/land-rover-announces-fuel-cell-electric-defender/) from late in 2021. Using some government money and a wide range of partners, the British brand wants to learn more about hydrogen and how it can work in an off-road application and for towing. Land Rover already has various plug-in hybrid models available and will soon start offering the Defender P400e PHEV (https://evcentral.com.au/land-rover-defender-p400e-phev-revealed-4x4-icons-most-powerful-model-yet/).

"

Nice :) noting getting a Hydrogen refuel is a Altona only option here in Vic and Sydney I hear. A single Toyota Mirai at a EV charge point in Torquay was the first and only one I have actually seen live to date. I'll be waiting for refueling options before I could change my tow tug. [bighmmm]

[PhilipA]

So that is why China needs all those new Coal Fired power stations to produce electricity to charge those clean electric cars.!!!!


https://images.axios.com/Sqn1BCbIKlzDcDgVN0eSkNgWpBk=/2022/01/19/1642600523006.png

[4bee]

A Customer of ours has a new Tesla.

He recons that when he takes his hands are off the steering wheel,it cruises around corners no worries.

But after two audible alerts it slows down and pulls off the road and stops by itself.[bighmmm]

I forgot to ask what it does if it comes across a set of traffic lights or a roundabout while there are no hands on the wheel.

I will ask next time i see him, and report back.


Always assuming there may be a "Next Time of course.

[scarry]

So that is why China needs all those new Coal Fired power stations to produce electricity to charge those clean electric cars.!!!!


https://images.axios.com/Sqn1BCbIKlzDcDgVN0eSkNgWpBk=/2022/01/19/1642600523006.png

EV’s in China were heavily Govt subsidised same as many other countries such as Norway.
That’s the main reason they had a jump in sales.

The Miria or what ever it is called has been in the US for around 12 yrs,so they should be way ahead of the rest.

[PhilipA]

Ah , good old Tesla .
great one day but ****house in 3 years

Over 10 Percent of Tesla Model S EVs Fail Germany’s Strict Inspection After 3 Years (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/44068/over-10-percent-of-tesla-model-s-evs-fail-germanys-strict-inspection-after-3-years)
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

RACV Q NRMA likley to add a 20km quick charge to help IF you stuff up in a EV[biggrin] Happily a nifty Australian venture as well

Melbourne start-up launches charging units for stranded electric cars (https://thedriven.io/2022/02/01/melbourne-start-up-launches-charging-units-for-stranded-electric-cars/)

Add 50-100km range as a option might be interesting as well for long weekends "
Those modules will provide 50 to 100 kms of range – with the intention for the service to be cheaper than petrol. For EV owners without home charging – they see with one or two session a week, the service can work to provide for an EV that is always charged and/or ready to make it to a DC charger and get away for a long weekend.
"


A little range anxiety soother perhaps Linked IN suggest 'Start" is "Renewable Energy Semiconductor Manufacturing" and Canberra based?

I wonder if it is a Supercapacitor or bog standard Lithuim DC to DC CCS plug type charge?

[PhilipA]

I saw a TV article on the 7? news a few nights ago where Tesla claims to have sold 15000 model 3's in 2021.

If so they are just leaving everyone else in the dust.
You see quite a few around.
Regards PhilipA

[Ferret]

I saw a TV article on the 7? news a few nights ago where Tesla claims to have sold 15000 model 3's in 2021.

If so they are just leaving everyone else in the dust.
You see quite a few around.
Regards PhilipA

The claims are wrong. The actual vehicle registration figures don't align with the claimed sales figures by a fair margin & the electric car lobby has retracted. Tesla sales figures BS....

Tesla Australia admits its sales figures were wrong (https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-australia-admits-it-sales-figures-were-wrong/)

[PhilipA]

Thanks for that.

Even at 12000 that is a lot of EVs and AFAIR I listed 787? Porsche Taycans as most popular excluding Tesla.
So Tesla has sold over 12 times the next EV.

Electric Jesus is doing very well Down here.
It goes to show that while VW is whining old Elon has been making hay. So much for no EV choice in OZ.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

The claims are wrong. The actual vehicle registration figures don't align with the claimed sales figures by a fair margin & the electric car lobby has retracted. Tesla sales figures BS....

Tesla Australia admits its sales figures were wrong (https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-australia-admits-it-sales-figures-were-wrong/)

Gross for two years[bighmmm]- Tesla boss wanting a bigger bonus??? "The Tesla registration data reported exclusively by Drive last week was largely ignored by other media outlets that ran stories based on a press release from the Electric Vehicle Council of Australia."

Odd to ignore the significant discrepancy- I wonder if some have Tesla shares? Not me dam it :)

New reports (https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/motoring-news/best-selling-electric-cars-in-australia-revealed/news-story/976dde30d0459e8cb7a3db7cefb2e24c) "1388 of MG ZS " I haven't seen another one yet. [bighmmm] they fairly rubbish Tesla's stuff up and other issues [thumbsupbig]

My quirky one has no issues with Port Fairy now I have located the Fast charge in the RACY Torquay resort- It clearly cannot tow my boat.

The WTLP range is also total crap in my view. My one can IF I massage it by driving slow get its WTLP range. Not suggesting the fuel consumption stickers are much better of course.

[Homestar]

RACV Q NRMA likley to add a 20km quick charge to help IF you stuff up in a EV[biggrin] Happily a nifty Australian venture as well

Melbourne start-up launches charging units for stranded electric cars (https://thedriven.io/2022/02/01/melbourne-start-up-launches-charging-units-for-stranded-electric-cars/)

Add 50-100km range as a option might be interesting as well for long weekends "
Those modules will provide 50 to 100 kms of range – with the intention for the service to be cheaper than petrol. For EV owners without home charging – they see with one or two session a week, the service can work to provide for an EV that is always charged and/or ready to make it to a DC charger and get away for a long weekend.
"


A little range anxiety soother perhaps Linked IN suggest 'Start" is "Renewable Energy Semiconductor Manufacturing" and Canberra based?

I wonder if it is a Supercapacitor or bog standard Lithuim DC to DC CCS plug type charge?

I’ve been thinking of vinyl wrapping a couple of our trailer mounted gens at work with some ‘green’ stuff like leaves and battery symbols, etc and calling them mobile EV charging stations. [emoji56][emoji16].

We do have some new Hybrid systems we’ve just built but they would be too small for EV’s as they’ve been designed to run traffic lights, but an 80KVA gen and some charging leads - that would give you 50KM in a matter of minutes. [emoji16]

[NavyDiver]

I’ve been thinking of vinyl wrapping a couple of our trailer mounted gens at work with some ‘green’ stuff like leaves and battery symbols, etc and calling them mobile EV charging stations. [emoji56][emoji16].

We do have some new Hybrid systems we’ve just built but they would be too small for EV’s as they’ve been designed to run traffic lights, but an 80KVA gen and some charging leads - that would give you 50KM in a matter of minutes. [emoji16]

A farmer with a Tractor let everyone park for free in his paddock to see a river race in WA years back. He charged $50 to drag all the bogged cars out- I assume he made thousands[thumbsupbig] ( Avon Decent ) He did ask me to stop pulling people out for free[biggrin] LADA at the time[bigwhistle]

Bet there will be a market for your services. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Just park near a broken remote charge point perhaps[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Thanks for that.

Even at 12000 that is a lot of EVs.
So Tesla has sold over 12 times the next EV.

And a bit of trivia...

About twice as many vehicles as LR sold for 2021.

I am on the road a lot,and see quite a few Teslas.
In fact SWMBO has been telling me they look good.I hope that isnt a hint she wants one[bigsad][biggrin]

[Homestar]

l

I am on the road a lot,and see quite a few Teslas.
In fact SWMBO has been telling me they look good.I hope that isnt a hint she wants one[bigsad][biggrin]

They do look good and they drive ok too, but the build quality is quite bad compared to other vehicles. Fit and finish is so-so at best personally not what I would expect from a car costing this much. They are a bit like the Mustangs in this regard - look good from a distance but the flaws are obvious when you start looking at one closely.

[PhilipA]

Yes there is an article in "the Drive" that 10% of Teslas fail their 3year TUV roadworthy in Germany , mainly from suspension problems, plus varied other faults.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Sydney and around Tassie in a little EV yarn below. My trips to Port Fairy seemed a lot harder until I found the fast chargers in Ballarat to Torquay making my short haul quirky car a lot easier[biggrin]

I just checked for the next next marathon. (Next is Port fairy in two week). Wangaratta Marathon is dire- S.F.A. charging fast in Wang ! Happily not a issue as 50ish km before Wang is a CCS making a 40 minute dinner the night before getting me home after the Marathon. Swag fits in the back of the MG happily.

I did drive the Disco today. Dog to the beach and 6 loaded did not fit the the mg[thumbsupbig]

https://www.mynrma.com.au/-/media/ev-sydney-to-tasmania-curringa-farm-hero-desktop.jpg?h=500&la=en&w=1140&hash=41BA430A2D545470D540E505143A06A7

Sydney to Hobart in an EV | Road trips (https://www.mynrma.com.au/travel/road-trips/ev-sydney-to-hobart?utm_source=nrma-social&fbclid=IwAR28M3vrvWqM0oHq0h8-eUf2zC0r_1Rg_9R6jhXoTcWvUAuIV8hlkFADUfQ)

[scarry]

More trivia.

For every EV sold in Aus,there are 10 Hybrids sold.

[JDNSW]

Almost certainly in large part due to availability.

[Tombie]

Almost certainly in large part due to availability.

And that a hybrid can at the least go beyond an extension cord [emoji6]

[scarry]

Almost certainly in large part due to availability.

Partly,but cost would also be a huge factor.

Also Hybrids probably suit a lot more people than EV’s here in Aus.
Try looking for a charging station or a petrol station,one is slightly more common than the other.

[DeanoH]

Partly,but cost would also be a huge factor.

Also Hybrids probably suit a lot more people than EV’s here in Aus.
Try looking for a charging station or a petrol station,one is slightly more common than the other.

Last year I had the opportunity to escape Victoria between lock-downs and traveled for 7 months through every mainland state and territory except Queensland covering over 20,000 Km. During this time I found ONE EV charging station and it wasn't at any service station or roadhouse I stopped at. It was sort of randomly plonked outside the pub in the rural Western Australian town of Katanning. :)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/alternate-energies/176857d1644217948-ev-general-discussion-katanning-ev-charger.jpg
"
Now this could be pretty handy for the local CWA ladies ............................. "sorry Dear, but I'm stuck down the pub for a while, bloody battery's flat, you'll have to get your own dinner" :) Not a problem for the cockys of course as there's no EV 70 series that know of. :)

But realistically from my (rural) perspective EV's are for environmentally friendly cashed up woke city dwellers. Totally bloody useless in a practical sense except for very expensive urban commuting.

This charging station is the one and only EV charging station that I've ever seen, ever :o. I checked on line 12 months ago and there were no public EV charging stations within 40 Km of my home in West Gippsland, Victoria. So in my real (rural) world I find it a bit hard to take EV's seriously. To fork out $50K plus for a small car that can only be used as a local 'shopping trolley' is not really a viable proposition.

Which brings me to hybrid vehicles. Whilst in WA I got to drive a Toyota Yaris ZR hybrid which a mate had bought to replace the family (read missus') shopping trolley, previously a Honda R of all things :) At around $30K this was IMO a very good vehicle, I was quite impressed. If you're into vehicle 'consumer electronics' this car had it in spades, but putting that aside it drove, handled and stopped well, good ergonomics and very good fuel consumption (5-6 l/100Km) and easily capable of the Perth trip of around 700 Km with no problem. We're looking at replacing the family (read missus') shopping trolley soon and on performance/economy this could be a serious contender.

The bit I don't understand with hybrid vehicles is where's the efficiency/cost gain ? You have a petrol engine running a generator which charges a battery which drives an electric motor. Taking regenerative braking out of the equation, what's the gain over directly coupling the engine output to the drive train ? Surely this is more energy efficient than converting rotational energy to electricity storage energy and back again to rotational energy to propel the vehicle ? I don't know if I've used the right terms here but hopefully you get the idea :) Or is the gain in having a small motor/generator and combining this output with the battery output (sometimes) instead of having a larger capacity engine ? Or is the main efficiency improvement in using regenerative braking to put energy back into the battery ? On a long highway run I would not expect either of these efficiency's to make a significant difference.

[scarry]

Last year I had the opportunity to escape Victoria between lock-downs and traveled for 7 months through every mainland state and territory except Queensland covering over 20,000 Km. During this time I found ONE EV charging station and it wasn't at any service station or roadhouse I stopped at. It was sort of randomly plonked outside the pub in the rural Western Australian town of Katanning. :)

176857

I dont go looking for them but the only one i have ever seen is at the local Winery.
And i recon that is only there as the owner of the place has a Tesla.
I have never seen it being used.

[4bee]

Partly,but cost would also be a huge factor.

Also Hybrids probably suit a lot more people than EV’s here in Aus.
Try looking for a charging station or a petrol station,one is slightly more common than the other.


Ooh I dunno, Extension Leads aren't that expensive, but if you are talking 500km ones then that's a different story..[bigrolf] [bighmmm]

[chuck]

Reading an article today where they compared the mandate for EV Cars to the CO2 reduction program and diesel cars in Europe

Diesel cars sales quadrupled overnight but they forgot about oxides and lots of other stuff.

Raised all sorts of issues like a $35 billion revenue hole, roads falling apart due to heavier cars, more serious MVA's due to larger impacts due to mass, environmental impact due to mineral extraction, social issues due to labour exploitation & that even if all cars became electric would only save 8% of emissions.

Other issues were that basically the wealthy are buying the cars & still claiming the rebates while the less well off cant afford them + the wealthy have a second ICE car to do the stuff EV cant do well.

The other point was that think the best technology which addresses all of the above is further away than the European mandates.

[vnx205]

The bit I don't understand with hybrid vehicles is where's the efficiency/cost gain ? You have a petrol engine running a generator which charges a battery which drives an electric motor. Taking regenerative braking out of the equation, what's the gain over directly coupling the engine output to the drive train ? Surely this is more energy efficient than converting rotational energy to electricity storage energy and back again to rotational energy to propel the vehicle ? I don't know if I've used the right terms here but hopefully you get the idea :) Or is the gain in having a small motor/generator and combining this output with the battery output (sometimes) instead of having a larger capacity engine ? Or is the main efficiency improvement in using regenerative braking to put energy back into the battery ? On a long highway run I would not expect either of these efficiency's to make a significant difference.

My take on this is that you are making the mistake of thinking of the hybrid as an electric vehicle, so you are placing too much emphasis on the issue of the inefficiencies involved in converting energy.

My experience is with the Toyota Camry AVV50R hybrid, so some of my comments may not apply to other brands.

Even on the highway, the hybrid Camry has an advantage over similar non-hybrid vehicles. It uses an Atkinson Cycle engine rather than an Otto Cycle. I believe an Atkinson Cycle engine can be up to 30% more efficient.

The Atkinson ICE has a disadvantage; that is less torque at low revs. However, the electric power largely created by regenerative braking more than makes up for the reduced torque.

So around town, the Camry hybrid has all the advantages offered by regen braking. On the highway it has the advantage of a more fuel efficient engine without sacrificing any performance because of the electric power available.

EDIT: Toyota claim 5.4 l/100km for non hybrid Camry highway cycle and 4.5l/100km for hybrid. I assume that the degree of optimism is similar for both figures. So the Hybrid is a bit more efficient on the highway and much more efficient in the city.

[scarry]

Ooh I dunno, Extension Leads aren't that expensive, but if you are talking 500km ones then that's a different story..[bigrolf] [bighmmm]

Maybe they need to harness lightning,it happily travels well over 500Km[bigrolf]

[scarry]

My take on this is that you are making the mistake of thinking of the hybrid as an electric vehicle, so you are placing too much emphasis on the issue of the inefficiencies involved in converting energy.

My experience is with the Toyota Camry AVV50R hybrid, so some of my comments may not apply to other brands.

Even on the highway, the hybrid Camry has an advantage over similar non-hybrid vehicles. It uses an Atkinson Cycle engine rather than an Otto Cycle. I believe an Atkinson Cycle engine can be up to 30% more efficient.

The Atkinson ICE has a disadvantage; that is less torque at low revs. However, the electric power largely created by regenerative braking more than makes up for the reduced torque.

So around town, the Camry hybrid has all the advantages offered by regen braking. On the highway it has the advantage of a more fuel efficient engine without sacrificing any performance because of the electric power available.

EDIT: Toyota claim 5.4 l/100km for non hybrid Camry highway cycle and 4.5l/100km for hybrid. I assume that the degree of optimism is similar for both figures. So the Hybrid is a bit more efficient on the highway and much more efficient in the city.

One of my brothers has one,he lives in Darwin.It consistently gets around 5l/100,slightly less than his Prado[biggrin]

[PhilipA]

Land Rover now makes PHEVs .( Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle)

They can be plugged in and go for 27Km on battery on a charge.

You have the option of using petrol only, combination, or electric only. They have a 2 litre petrol engine and electric motor and are FAST when both motors used AFAIR 5.5Seconds 0-60.
So for the shops or city centre it costs nothing except the home power used.
On a long trip in the LRO test it did about 29MPG, for a trip to his office 30Km away, 101MPG.
Only problem is that they cost GBP 70K or I suppose AUD 150K by the time they get here.
Regards PhilipA

[4bee]

A farmer with a Tractor let everyone park for free in his paddock to see a river race in WA years back. He charged $50 to drag all the bogged cars out- I assume he made thousands[thumbsupbig] ( Avon Decent ) He did ask me to stop pulling people out for free[biggrin] LADA at the time[bigwhistle]

Bet there will be a market for your services. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Just park near a broken remote charge point perhaps[bigwhistle]


Good thinking 99. What if each EV towed an operating Gennie behind, wouldn't that save down time or might that be defeating the purpose a bit?:Rolling:

Short extension lead as well.









TiC.[bigrolf]

[4bee]

Maybe they need to harness lightning,it happily travels well over 500Km[bigrolf]


On a UK LR Forum a few years back I read where a bloke had difficulty charging his vehicle from an indoor GPO 'cos folk kept tripping over his lead from the house across the footpath..


Someone back then (a few years ago) tongue in cheek suggested it'd be good idea if it could be done wirelessly


Lo & behold, not long after, someone came up with that idea & I see now where you you can buy the gear to do that.


Wireless Charging Electric Vehicles: Is it Possible to Charge Electric Cars Wirelessly? | CarsGuide (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/is-it-possible-to-charge-electric-cars-wirelessly-85456)
Who could have seriously foreseen that happening?

[NavyDiver]

Good thinking 99. What if each EV towed an operating Gennie behind, wouldn't that save down time or might that be defeating the purpose a bit?:Rolling:

Short extension lead as well.




TiC.[bigrolf]

That's a Hybrid Des. [biggrin] A solar panel or ten might NOT be that hard to add to your trailer. [biggrin] For half a sec I thought you meant a Genie[thumbsupbig] Suspect If I had one of those a magic carpet would also be supplied [bigrolf]

[4bee]

That's a Hybrid Des. [biggrin] A solar panel or ten might NOT be that hard to add to your trailer. [biggrin] For half a sec I thought you meant a Genie[thumbsupbig] Suspect If I had one of those a magic carpet would also be supplied [bigrolf]



Yes, that would always be required for getting under & changing the oil & misc repairs while on the move, you see they also fly & could keep up a reasonable speed while you were under doing the chores.


You'd just need to watch out you didn't bash the back of your head on kerbing or those bloody speed humps, but other than that they would be most useful. I read somewhere recently the later jobs have Sensors so that would rule out bashing one's head as the carpet rises & falls to suit the topography as does the vehicle. So that might be a goer. Terrain following RADAR would be used here.

Being Magic, they obviously would be self-cleaning & I think they are designed to go Super Sonic so the **** would just fall out at about 800mph/1225km/h or Mach 1.

Oh yes, the later versions can go Hyper-sonic if the carpet is really really dirty.


Job done.

You see, I ain't just a Pretty face you know.



TiC.:BigThumb::Rolling:

[4bee]

[QUOTE=scarry;3135237]Maybe they need to harness lightning,it happily travels well over 500K



Just thinking about my suggestion. It'd be a bastard if one was interstate & plugged in there, & noticed no charging going on. You'd have to walk all the way (750 km) back to the charging station in Adelaide to find some ***** had pulled your plug out of your 800km lead & buggered off for a coffee. So you pull out his/hers then have to walk all the back to Melbourne (750km) again to check your EAV was charging ok.


Jesus what a bloody carry on![bigrolf]





TiC. [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

This Youtube video deals with a bloke in UK driving his MGto wales and back.
It's a good example of the good and bad of EV ownership .
Maybe the MG owner can tell us whether the same situation applies in OZ. I am referring to the difficulty of different companies, not the Tesla sitting at the charger which is self explanatory.
MG ZS EV Review! Cold weather range test GONE WRONG! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxR9b-ZPoaY&ab_channel=PetrolPed)
Regards PhilipA

[ramblingboy42]

An Australian transport company Janus trucks look like doing electric conversions...Janus Electric (https://www.januselectric.com.au/)

[PhilipA]

AFAIR this was featured on TV as a likely project for Sydney to Brisbane transports.

However by their blurb, it appears they are looking for capital to make it a reality.

It will be interesting to see whether they can raise the capital to be able to establish the necessary battery swap stations, recalling that Tesla also planned to introduce these several years ago but never made it reality.
Tesla planned a similar idea with automated battery replacement at dedicated centres .
Regards PhilipA

[cripesamighty]

An interesting little test from carwow, of things which affect the range on an EV.

EV range killers - DON'T DO THIS! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmQJUW-VyRY)

[NavyDiver]

177007[bigwhistle]

On range a interesting thing I did was carry jerry cans for extra range. Along with RAC NSW in a recent post another option was very close behind.
Why portable EV charging units - that can double as grid storage - are all the Go (https://thedriven.io/2022/02/11/why-portable-ev-charging-units-that-can-double-as-grid-storage-are-all-the-go/)

Interesting aspect of these are they are SMALL ish in range terms yet may be very suitable for camping power?

"UK business ZipCharge announce that trials of their portable EV charging solution will soon commence.ZipCharge’s Go charger is expected to contain from 4 to 8kWh of energy and be capable of charging from a domestic plug. This would provide between 32 to 64 kms of range at a 7.2kW EV charging rate, taking approximately 30 – 60 minutes to charge the vehicle. (Depending on the battery capacity, vehicle efficiency etc).
The Go unit is also planned to later become bi-directionally charging capable – meaning in the future, it could also function as a local energy storage device and feedback into the grid when not in use."

On a really weird bit in case not yet posted is a sort of sports car MG Sub 3 sec 100kPh and 800km range blade battery tech. I am not buying it but I do think it is rather more MG like than my short ass MG XSev[biggrin] News is that it is about to go into production and MIGHT get into the Right Hand Drive line as well?


E-motion concept car177008

[ramblingboy42]

I dont know how it would work with a car but you can see the ease of changeover on trucks as the batteries go where fuel tanks used to be. There would have to be a dedicated electric forklift....with a trained operator?......or some similar machinery. To be realistic all trucks will need to be set up to a standard to enable simple transfer of battery packs to and from truck to storage/charging point.

It appears to have a lot of merit in certain routes eg Syd/Bris

Twiggy claims to be able to save hundreds of millions of litres of diesel by changing over his fleet to electric.

Similar savings appear to be applicable to Janus.

I guess the rest of the thousands of semis/road trains on the route will only look on for a short time at any success before the stampede.

It would interesting to calculate how many fewer road trains carrying fuel for road trains will be taken off the road.

[NavyDiver]

Looks like South OZ will be easier than most with a big fast charger roll out
SA charging-station network backs state’s faith in an electric future (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/state/sa/2022/02/12/south-australia-electric-vehicles/)
Smarter than your average Bear? "A network of more than 500 charging points will be established across South Australia in a plan to make electric cars the first choice for buyers by 2030.SA’s peak motoring group, the Royal Automobile Association, has won a $12 million state government grant to establish 536 ‘fast’ and ‘rapid’ charging stations across 140 rural, regional and metropolitan locations.
"

Then a few weeks till they are here for "A new kind of charger that allows an electric vehicle (EV) to be used as a giant home battery is close to going on sale in Australia, with the first commercial shipment to arrive within weeks.Unlike standard one-way EV chargers, bidirectional chargers can also discharge energy from an EV, which means they can be used to power a home (known as vehicle-to-home or V2H) and its appliances, or to export energy to the grid (vehicle-to-grid or V2G).This may sound simple, but bringing them to Australia has proven difficult.For years, a mix of regulatory and engineering hurdles have repeatedly pushed back the technology's rollout date.
"

That is a bit funny as I know the Victron Multiplus/ solar inverter/ Red Flow batteries I have at work could also be used to charge or take power from a EV battery on grid or during grid failures. I would need a new plug and a bit of wiring only.

"Bidirectional chargers will cost about $10,000, or a bit less than a standard home battery. " [tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink] A single victron unit is well under 1/2 that!!!! I call a rip off price by the company which is a bit sad. SMA inverters have bi-directional chargers as well. Called hybrid inverters usually!

Jet charge link (https://jetcharge.com.au/solutions/vehicle-to-grid/)
SMA link (https://www.sma-australia.com.au/products/battery-inverters.html)
Victron link (https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-ii)
Goodwee (https://www.goodwe.com.au/enger-storage-au.asp) ( I liked the one I used to use before upgrading to 10kWh with 2 Victron Multiplus)

Looking at SMA, Victron and Goodwee links was a bugger me as prices are a lot less and capacity has tripled or more!

None of this is of interest to my MG really except if the older goodwee 5kWh hybrid sitting down stairs can be used at home for a bit of recycling[biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

Here you go.
Its surprising how many there are. There are 4 in my little town alone. Servos are installing them now.

EV CarCharging Stations in Australia - Maps & Addresses (https://myelectriccar.com.au/charge-stations-in-australia/)
I dont go looking for them but the only one i have ever seen is at the local Winery.
And i recon that is only there as the owner of the place has a Tesla.
I have never seen it being used.

[101RRS]

Here you go.
Its surprising how many there are. There are 4 in my little town alone. Servos are installing them now.

I saw a news article a few months back about a service station doing a renovation (Geelong I think) As they had the room, they decided to instal two charging points as part of the renovations and approached various suppliers. All the suppliers wanted to charge the garage owners big dollars to install their chargers rather than installing for free and coming to some arrangement on profit sharing, noting the chargers would be on service station land.

Of course the service station owner told the charger suppliers where to go and no chargers were installed.

We need to change the mindset on these things.

The other issue still remains how long it takes to get a full charge when travelling outside towns and cities - technology needs to bring this down to a few minutes - I am not the type of person who stops every few hours for a couple of hours - I drive - stop for a pee and get a coffee and some diesel and I am off - until the slow charging aspect is addressed then EVs are not realistic other than as a second car runabout in the towns.

[4bee]

I saw a news article a few months back about a service station doing a renovation (Geelong I think) As they had the room, they decided to instal two charging points as part of the renovations and approached various suppliers. All the suppliers wanted to charge the garage owners big dollars to install their chargers rather than installing for free and coming to some arrangement on profit sharing, noting the chargers would be on service station land.

Of course the service station owner told the charger suppliers where to go and no chargers were installed.

We need to change the mindset on these things.

The other issue still remains how long it takes to get a full charge when travelling outside towns and cities - technology needs to bring this down to a few minutes - I am not the type of person who stops every few hours for a couple of hours - I drive - stop for a pee and get a coffee and some diesel and I am off - until the slow charging aspect is addressed then EVs are not realistic other than as a second car runabout in the towns.


Stations don't do as you suggest with pumps so why would they even entertain that idea?

Same thing really.

[scarry]

Stations don't do as you suggest with pumps so why would they even entertain that idea?

Same thing really.

There has to be money in it as well,if not it isnt going to happen.

Garages make huge money ATM,why would they bother if they cant make good money out of chargers?

I know a guy who has 12 Service stations,all of them in the Brisbane area,he isnt even interested in chargers,and is redeveloping two of the garages at the moment.

[ramblingboy42]

I regularly stop every couple of hours when I'm travelling but not for fuel , or charging. Just to **** , straighten the back, move the legs. Fuelling is usually done at 7-800km mark depending on the town.

I don't think I could enjoy having to play hop scotch to charge an electric vehicle.....you'd never seem to reach your destination.

[4bee]

I regularly stop every couple of hours when I'm travelling but not for fuel , or charging. Just to **** , straighten the back, move the legs. Fuelling is usually done at 7-800km mark depending on the town.

I don't think I could enjoy having to play hop scotch to charge an electric vehicle.....you'd never seem to reach your destination.



Yep, it certainly would seem to appear that way.[bighmmm]

[NavyDiver]

A sort of AWD back ground. Shocker of range below my MG[bigsad]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmkADV8TGz8

[101RRS]

Ok got bored watching that video but did note 220mile range so realistic 180m so about 300km range - ok my Haflinger only goes 220km on a tank so the EV is better but not by much.

What I missed was how long does it charge the Subaru? Ok depends on charger but lets assume a typical charger - dont know but I bet it takes a hell of a lot longer than the 3 minutes it takes to refuel the Haflinger.

So how does it take to charge a EV on a typical charger - 5 cappuccinos, 10 Cappuccinos and a big mac or 20 cappuccinos and a Whopper - I mean really it gotta take about the same time to charge as filling a fuel tank or EVs are a no go.

[4bee]

Ok got bored watching that video but did note 220mile range so realistic 180m so about 300km range - ok my Haflinger only goes 220km on a tank so the EV is better but not by much.

What I missed was how long does it charge the Subaru? Ok depends on charger but lets assume a typical charger - dont know but I bet it takes a hell of a lot longer than the 3 minutes it takes to refuel the Haflinger.

So how does it take to charge a EV on a typical charger - 5 cappuccinos, 10 Cappuccinos and a big mac or 20 cappuccinos and a Whopper - I mean really it gotta take about the same time to charge as filling a fuel tank or EVs are a no go.

And there is no point any Govt. planning for a phasing out of ICE unless there is.
Technology wise I am sure things will improve but at today's rate it ain't going to happen by the weekend.

[vnx205]

... . ... ...


ok my Haflinger only goes 220km on a tank so the EV is better but not by much.

... .... .....


OTOH, the Subaru doesn't have a 70kph governed top speed like the Haflinger. :)

[101RRS]

OTOH, the Subaru doesn't have a 70kph governed top speed like the Haflinger. :)

Mine is not governed and goes a lot faster [thumbsupbig]

[ramblingboy42]

the situation could improve rapidly , if they'd do similar to Janus truck plans , which is designed around a standard. All trucks could adopt it.

the problem with motor cars is the manufacturers/designers aren't prepared to adopt a standard changeover battery system...their greed for customers is worth more to them than the practicality of a decent standard changeover battery.

not one current manufacturers EV has interchangeable capability with another and thats where it's going to take so long in Australia to give electric cars any decent range capability.

done effectively "refuelling" times for EV's could be equal to or less than ICEV's

[4bee]

the situation could improve rapidly , if they'd do similar to Janus truck plans , which is designed around a standard. All trucks could adopt it.

the problem with motor cars is the manufacturers/designers aren't prepared to adopt a standard changeover battery system...their greed for customers is worth more to them than the practicality of a decent standard changeover battery.

not one current manufacturers EV has interchangeable capability with another and thats where it's going to take so long in Australia to give electric cars any decent range capability.

done effectively "refuelling" times for EV's could be equal to or less than ICEV's



Really all they all need to do is have a couple of D Cell Size Diam. tubes down each side.



Stop - empty a few cartons of D cells into each tube.- cap back on- Job done. Away we go. Foot down hard.


Can anyone pick holes in my idea?




TiC.[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Really all they all need to do is have a couple of D Cell Size Diam. tubes down each side.



Stop - empty a few cartons of D cells into each tube.- cap back on- Job done. Away we go. Foot down hard.


Can anyone pick holes in my idea?




TiC.[bigrolf]

Flat battery torches ( 4 D cell Maglite) with D Cell was a PITA when moonlighting Security guard thing to buy a BMW Bike when I was 17[biggrin] I miss that K100.

The weight of the 4 d- cells still worked as a big STICK which doubled as a club apparently - Never used one that way promise[biggrin] I did think it could be used as a big stick on the one or two who asked if mum and dad brought the BMW for me :)

[ramblingboy42]

Can anyone pick holes in my idea? ...quote4bee

nah.....it's as sound as all your ideas...[bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[4bee]

Can anyone pick holes in my idea? ...quote4bee

nah.....it's as sound as all your ideas...[bigwhistle][bigwhistle]



Great, thanks for the feedback, I'll send it off to Canberra then & when you see all those piles of flat D cells rotting on the roadside you maybe might think of me & what a huge contribution I made for EVs..?


[bighmmm]:Rolling:

[4bee]

Flat battery torches ( 4 D cell Maglite) with D Cell was a PITA when moonlighting Security guard thing to buy a BMW Bike when I was 17[biggrin] I miss that K100.

The weight of the 4 d- cells still worked as a big STICK which doubled as a club apparently - Never used one that way promise[biggrin] I did think it could be used as a big stick on the one or two who asked if mum and dad brought the BMW for me :)


Yes, a great torch for it's time for sure. If you gripped it by the Lens head it did make a formidable weapon I believe.:bat:


Now I use a couple of adjustable lens LEDs & plug those in now & then but still have my olde 4D Maglite job but can't afford the batteries as the prices increased when some well meaning nitwit suggested D Cells could be used for EVs & the idea caught on..[bighmmm] [bigrolf]


So, if in trouble at least I can throw them at any petty assailant. :Rolling:





Btw,[B] that was a bit of an affront asking about your Mum & Dad.


That would have really,[B]really, taken your street cred away.

A bit of light hearted biffo & a 4 cell Maglite behind the lughole was probably the only real permanent solution in retrospect.



Ah Happy days.

[NavyDiver]

700km two charging stops -30 minutes each ( I did charge before I left and also in Port Fairy over night)
Cost was $38 RACV - chargefox $10.26 for 26.89kWh 20feb Ballarat- RACV - chargefox $7.24Torquay and I slip the Port Fairy Motel $20 for borrowing his charge point- ( Thanks Peter)

The WLTP is crap in my view. My quirky MG can easily it suggested WLTP only IF AC is off and speed is sub 80kPh. Power used is about 17.8 kWh at 100 KpH and 22kWh at 110kph

Our Cars all use more fuel the faster we go of course. Honestly think using Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicle Test Procedure is rubbish with out a separate City and Highway Cycle!

It is clearly not as easy using my 2020 tech and the currently very limited fast charging options. Noting of course my Disco would have drank a tank costing $160ish

The battery in mine needs TLC. Alternating DC and AC charging and usually adding only 80% helps battery cell balancing[bigwhistle][bigwhistle] I do call it quirky[thumbsupbig]

The BYD cars about to come are using BLADE batteries- Same tech as in Porches EVs - They can charge at a much faster rate IF a suitable charge is avaiable which is mostly not true yet[bigwhistle]

A guy in Ballarat took a pic. He thought it might have been the only time a KIA, Hyundai, Tesla and MG EV where all charging at the same time. Mine of course was the shortest range but driven the furthest for the weekend [thumbsupbig]

[101RRS]

The WLTP is crap in my view. My quirky MG can easily it suggested WLTP only IF AC is off and speed is sub 80kPh. Power used is about 17.8 kWh at 100 KpH and 22kWh at 110kph


The BYD cars about to come are using BLADE batteries- Same tech as in Porches EVs - They can charge at a much faster rate IF a suitable charge is avaiable which is mostly not true yet[bigwhistle]



What is WLTP and what BYD - the use of abbreviations that only EV nerds understand [bighmmm] does not help us dinosaurs get with the lingo.

Oh you said you only did two 30 minute charges but you actually did 3 - two on the road and one at the motel - the smarter ones amongst us are not that easily fooled [thumbsupbig].

Why you got a Chinese car?? Don't you know they are the enemy and we should not be buying their goods [thumbsupbig]

Garry

[Tombie]

the situation could improve rapidly , if they'd do similar to Janus truck plans , which is designed around a standard. All trucks could adopt it.

the problem with motor cars is the manufacturers/designers aren't prepared to adopt a standard changeover battery system...their greed for customers is worth more to them than the practicality of a decent standard changeover battery.

not one current manufacturers EV has interchangeable capability with another and thats where it's going to take so long in Australia to give electric cars any decent range capability.

done effectively "refuelling" times for EV's could be equal to or less than ICEV's

I can [emoji41]

A truck is a truck is a truck.

Chassis designs very similar, differences currently in cab configuration and driveline.

So changing to just a motor and a battery slot would be very easy (relatively speaking)

On a LV/Passenger vehicle….
How does one offer
- different leg room
- wheelbase variation
- seating configuration
- load capacity
- handling dynamics

If all the vehicles need to accomodate the same battery pack (some are quite profiled)

Then, what standard do you have for different size vehicles? A,C,D cell comparison all come to mind.

[scarry]

I can [emoji41]

Then, what standard do you have for different size vehicles? A,C,D cell comparison all come to mind.

And to add,there will be improvements,upgrades,with the batteries,and the vehicles,and on it goes.

Its like saying all mobiles should have the same charging cord.

It will never happen,but is a great way for convenience,a bit like a swap and go gas bottle.

[NavyDiver]

What is WLTP and what BYD - the use of abbreviations that only EV nerds understand [bighmmm] does not help us dinosaurs get with the lingo.

Oh you said you only did two 30 minute charges but you actually did 3 - two on the road and one at the motel - the smarter ones amongst us are not that easily fooled [thumbsupbig].

Why you got a Chinese car?? Don't you know they are the enemy and we should not be buying their goods [thumbsupbig]

Garry

Sorry BYD is BRING YOUR DREAMs. a Chinese battery and EV builder (https://www.byd.com/en/index.html). A Big one. WLTP is the European crap way of measuring the range of a battery car. Not suggesting the Petrol or diesel fuel consumption guide in Australia method is real or realistic either. They are both IN A PEFECT world and both exclude having Air conditioning or lights on!

Enemy? Political or religious differences do not make people or a company my enemy. I didn't like at least one polli from America. Didn't make me hate yanks[bigrolf]

At least 50% of the components in most things you buy are made where? [bigwhistle] More a chat for current affairs of course.

[TonyC]

Really all they all need to do is have a couple of D Cell Size Diam. tubes down each side.



Stop - empty a few cartons of D cells into each tube.- cap back on- Job done. Away we go. Foot down hard.


Can anyone pick holes in my idea?




TiC.[bigrolf]#SNL - Julia Louis-Dreyfus Does Commercial For Battery-Operated Mercedes AA Class Car - Videos - Metatube (https://www.metatube.com/en/videos/303056/SNL-Julia-Louis-Dreyfus-Does-Commercial-For-Battery-Operated-Mercedes-AA-Class-Car/)

Tony

[PhilipA]

There is a car carrier with $400 million in Porsches aboard on fire in the Atlantic.
They do not know whether the EVs on board started the fir but they do know that they cannot put it out because the EVs continue to burn.

Regards PhilipA

[4bee]

#SNL - Julia Louis-Dreyfus Does Commercial For Battery-Operated Mercedes AA Class Car - Videos - Metatube (https://www.metatube.com/en/videos/303056/SNL-Julia-Louis-Dreyfus-Does-Commercial-For-Battery-Operated-Mercedes-AA-Class-Car/)




Bugger she has pinched my idea>[bigsad]
Tony


Just realised, Tony, weight might be my next problem there but maybe I could try & design Helium filled batteries. [bighmmm][bighmmm]


I did like her "Used Battery Ejection" method if I may be so bold to call it that, but it really does need to go hand in hand with a 10 c/metre capacity Skip which could be conveniently towed behind as well as be very convenient to incorporate a Petrol or Diseasel Gennie. Of course it needs loading chutes for the side discharge of flat batteries but I can't see a problem there providing it can be articulated & Power Boost Extended ie. PBE.


Hhmmm, needs more work, I'll get back to you on that if I may.





Oh BTW, Thanks for your input.



TiC.[bigrolf]

[4bee]

There is a car carrier with $400 million in Porsches aboard on fire in the Atlantic.
They do not know whether the EVs on board started the fir but they do know that they cannot put it out because the EVs continue to burn.

Regards PhilipA


Don't knock it for it is keeping Smit Lloyd blokes in a good job. [bighmmm]

[NavyDiver]

There is a car carrier with $400 million in Porsches aboard on fire in the Atlantic.
They do not know whether the EVs on board started the fir but they do know that they cannot put it out because the EVs continue to burn.

Regards PhilipA

Chatter with some fellow fire fighting ship mates. Halon- no longer except very specific exceptions, AFFF (Aqueous film forming foam)no more as it is carcinogenic, C02 - not much and H20 in lithium battery fires just cools it for a bit[bigwhistle] The ship cannot put much water in as it would be unstable and roll.

Suspect it will go out some time - its burning it self out hopefully before it burns to the water line[biggrin] ""The fire has subsided in recent hours," port captain João Mendes Cabeças told local media. "


Noting putting out a haystack fire give some of the same issues. Ship was build by Shin Kurushima Dockyard. I suspect it is Steel not aluminum so it might be floating for a while yet.

[4bee]

Chatter with some fellow fire fighting ship mates. Halon- no longer except very specific exceptions, AFFF (Aqueous film forming foam)no more as it is carcinogenic, C02 - not much and H20 in lithium battery fires just cools it for a bit[bigwhistle] The ship cannot put much water in as it would be unstable and roll.

Suspect it will go out some time - its burning it self out hopefully before it burns to the water line[biggrin] ""The fire has subsided in recent hours," port captain João Mendes Cabeças told local media. "


Noting putting out a haystack fire give some of the same issues. Ship was build by Shin Kurushima Dockyard. I suspect it is Steel not aluminum so it might be floating for a while yet.

While pouring it in Smit Lloyd would also have pumps going taking it out, either by Ship's own, if they can, or Auxiliaries brought on board. Once upon a time Co2 or Halon would have been dumped on it but times change.

They would have done this before, being who they are & what they do.


Reminds me of that olde Fillum "San Demetrio. London" Film 1943. Actual event 1940.


Ship (Oil Tanker) shelled & on fire & eventually abandoned but after a week or so the crew found it drifting with fires still going. So what did those brave British Seamen do?:rulez: Climbed aboard & bit by bit were able to extinguish the fire just with water in buckets for a start. They saved the ship & got her back to Scotland I think it was, when it was taken in care by Salvage Tugs.

I'm sure I can hear the toon "Hearts of Oak" ringing in my ears.
[bigrolf]

Apparently a True story.

Fillum. San Demetrio London - Wikipedia

EDIT. It sounds like Smit is allowing the Lithium Battery contaminated water to build up within the ship rather than dump it in the sea therefore my learned friend's comment above, that the ship could be unstable, are valid..
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Demetrio_London)

[NavyDiver]

I wonder if the crew are not fully trained in Fire fighting myself. Noting SCBA and specialist kit is needed to just survive in a smoke filled hull. They bailed very quickly I felt. [bigwhistle] Acronyms again James do we have a spank yourself icon? - SCBA is Self Contained Breathing Apparatus. Very similar to SCUBA kits. you can work that one out [bigrolf]

[4bee]

I wonder if the crew are not fully trained in Fire fighting myself. Noting SCBA and specialist kit is needed to just survive in a smoke filled hull. They bailed very quickly I felt. [bigwhistle] Acronyms again James do we have a spank yourself icon? - SCBA is Self Contained Breathing Apparatus. Very similar to SCUBA kits. you can work that one out [bigrolf]



You'd think that they had to have mandatory training on a ship which sounds like it routinely carried that sort of value cargo. I wonder what the Insurers will find?[bighmmm]
Probably that the Alarms were disconnected because they kept alarming & kept the crew awake.[bigrolf]


I'm surprised that Alarms weren't set off earlier allowing an early response to the fire. They may have been, but weird that this fire had got such a hold already. As my learned friend stated above the crew seemed to bail out early.



Ah well, not expecting my new Porsches ( yep, 7 off & following the customary practice of ME residents) anytime soon anyway, so not really bothered about any delays.

One for each day of the week you see.

[NavyDiver]

This was interesting. Did not cover the EV's I would like tested like they did

Tested: InsideEVs Reveals Real World Range Of Today's Electric Cars (https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/)


I hate the range test rubbish with issues with both EPA and WLTP (https://insideevs.com/features/343231/heres-how-to-calculate-conflicting-ev-range-test-cycles-epa-wltp-nedc/)

Just 4 cars gave better than the suggested range. All out of my price range for Range security [biggrin]

At 110kph my MG power use is at about 20 to22kWh per 100km range at 110kph.

100kph is 18to 19 kWh
80kph is sub 16 kwh

The efficiency of several in the link makes the MG look a bit average[bigwhistle]

[PhilipA]

It raises the question I guess of what happens in a car park if an EV catches fire either spontaneously or from another source.
This is of interest For underground car parks for apartment buildings. will they be completely banned or charging banned?
If several were parked together like at a charging station or the German bus depot could this affect the integrity of the building?
Regards PhilipA

[4bee]

It raises the question I guess of what happens in a car park if an EV catches fire either spontaneously or from another source.
This is of interest For underground car parks for apartment buildings. will they be completely banned or charging banned?
If several were parked together like at a charging station or the German bus depot could this affect the integrity of the building?
Regards PhilipA


It is events like this ship thing that should advance our thinking about this technology. If it hasn't happened before it has now, & more questions will be asked.


Park at night on a charger in a standard carport? Same thing really.

Will the authorities still be able to point to a cause of ignition?????? Who knows, but I can just about guarantee there will be less shipments until it has been explained & rectified. It is not just the cars it is also the Ship & Crew put at risk.

Will all lead to higher Insurance Premiums ergo higher prices for cars.

[BradC]

It raises the question I guess of what happens in a car park if an EV catches fire either spontaneously or from another source.
This is of interest For underground car parks for apartment buildings. will they be completely banned or charging banned?
If several were parked together like at a charging station or the German bus depot could this affect the integrity of the building?

We're doing reviews in tall buildings and this is a question I've asked of each building manager when I've spotted EV chargers in the basement. Most are quite unaware of the risks and somewhat uncomfortable when it's highlighted.

[scarry]

We're doing reviews in tall buildings and this is a question I've asked of each building manager when I've spotted EV chargers in the basement. Most are quite unaware of the risks and somewhat uncomfortable when it's highlighted.

Insurance companies will have a field day,well,actually they are having one ATM anyway,because they can[bigsad]

What the insurance companies will probably do is make the building owner install a full sprinkler system,with water tanks,and a back to base smoke system,for the area where the chargers are located.

[BradC]

Insurance companies will have a field day,well,actually they are having one ATM anyway,because they can[bigsad]

What the insurance companies will probably do is make the building owner install a full sprinkler system,with water tanks,and a back to base smoke system,for the area where the chargers are located.

They all have that already. If you’ve seen a lithium battery fire, all that is a bit like ****ing on a bushfire. You don’t need sprinklers, you need many hours of deluge and no buildings have either the storage or pumping capacity for that.

[4bee]

They all have that already. If you’ve seen a lithium battery fire, all that is a bit like ****ing on a bushfire. You don’t need sprinklers, you need many hours of deluge and no buildings have either the storage or pumping capacity for that.


Brad, You omitted "decent Drains that work & can cope."[bighmmm]

[scarry]

They all have that already. If you’ve seen a lithium battery fire, all that is a bit like ****ing on a bushfire. You don’t need sprinklers, you need many hours of deluge and no buildings have either the storage or pumping capacity for that.

We have deluge systems on some jobs,all fun and games.[biggrin]

Insurance companies are not stupid,if there is any huge risk,they wont be interested in covering them,it is as simple as that.
Buildings will have to be modified,or they will walk away.
Or premiums will be rediculously huge.

We have the same issues with buildings full of cold room panelling,even though its XFLAM,which has fire retardant.
I know of one that is licensed for growing Cannabis.Fully accredited through the Office of Drug Control.
Only one insurance company in Aus, will cover the property and the business due to the risk,and the premium increased from last year to this year by almost 50%.The dollar figure for cover is up close to $200K,the property is 1400M square,so not huge by any means.

The property does not have a sprinkler system,if it did,the premium would be less,and more insurance companies would be interested.

That is just an example of how insurance companies operate,its all about risk,and they are not worried about walking away from risks.

[BradC]

Brad, You omitted "decent Drains that work & can cope."[bighmmm]

Sorta, don't need the drains if you can't get the water in there. But yeah, I see your point.

[4bee]

Sorta, don't need the drains if you can't get the water in there. But yeah, I see your point.


Just that you mentioned Deluging which implies a heap of water but in a downstairs car park without correctly installed & cleared drains the place would look like the Brissie River today with cars floating every which way.

I'll go now shall I?[bigrolf]

[BradC]

Just that you mentioned Deluging which implies a heap of water but in a downstairs car park without correctly installed & cleared drains the place would look like the Brissie River today with cars floating every which way.

I'll go now shall I?[bigrolf]

Not at all, it's these sort of things we tend to highlight when we do these reviews.

[NavyDiver]

Not at all, it's these sort of things we tend to highlight when we do these reviews.

You all know the truth and the current pain - Happily a solution

177520 Unless your in a EV

Sorry Brad Its not funny in some ways mate[bigwhistle]

[BradC]

You all know the truth and the current pain - Happily a solution

177520 Unless your in a EV

Sorry Brad Its not funny in some ways mate[bigwhistle]

Everything is funny at the moment. When fuel gets up to about 6 times the price of wine I'll start distilling the wine down to ethanol for the car.

[NavyDiver]

Everything is funny at the moment. When fuel gets up to about 6 times the price of wine I'll start distilling the wine down to ethanol for the car.

Only the goonies and craps stuff please Brad. We both know WA has some might fine wines mate[biggrin]

[Arapiles]

"

Then a few weeks till they are here for "A new kind of charger that allows an electric vehicle (EV) to be used as a giant home battery is close to going on sale in Australia, with the first commercial shipment to arrive within weeks.Unlike standard one-way EV chargers, bidirectional chargers can also discharge energy from an EV, which means they can be used to power a home (known as vehicle-to-home or V2H) and its appliances, or to export energy to the grid (vehicle-to-grid or V2G).This may sound simple, but bringing them to Australia has proven difficult.For years, a mix of regulatory and engineering hurdles have repeatedly pushed back the technology's rollout date.
"

That is a bit funny as I know the Victron Multiplus/ solar inverter/ Red Flow batteries I have at work could also be used to charge or take power from a EV battery on grid or during grid failures. I would need a new plug and a bit of wiring only.

"Bidirectional chargers will cost about $10,000, or a bit less than a standard home battery. " [tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink] A single victron unit is well under 1/2 that!!!! I call a rip off price by the company which is a bit sad. SMA inverters have bi-directional chargers as well. Called hybrid inverters usually!




I saw that - I'd presumed that was always available in Australia, it's been available in Japan for at least 10 years, and I remember my wife telling me about it ages before that. I thought that it sounded a bit wacky then realised later that it made sense.

In Japan Toyota will sell you a house (yes, there are Toyota prefab houses), a carport with a roof made out of solar panels and the car to put in the garage. In Japan the newer houses are always able to run from solar when the grid is off and have quite large battery storage built in - in the display homes I used to see, they were in expandable cabinets near the kitchen.

NB, it turned out after the tsunami that electric cars were more resilient than ICE - because there were fuel shortages that affected ICE but people with electric cars were able to charge the cars from their solar and still get around.

[4bee]

Everything is funny at the moment. When fuel gets up to about 6 times the price of wine I'll start distilling the wine down to ethanol for the car.


BLIMEY BRAD! That is a bit extreme.[bigrolf]



However, your car may run & idle better on a nice Shiraz rather than a cheap Rose. The exhaust fumes could lay some folk out cold though.[bighmmm]

[NavyDiver]

I got Nothing as usual except the road user charges [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

What states and territories are doing to help Australians buy electric carsAlways missing the party [biggrin][biggrin]

What states and territories are doing to help Australians buy electric cars - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-17/electric-car-rebate-subsidy-tax-exemptions-in-australia/100609992)

[JDNSW]

On Saturday, we had a demonstration and test of a "Swincar" at my place. This was to test the suitability of the vehicle for use in electromagnetic surveys.

The vehicle is aimed at a similar market to quadbikes, hence the tank mounted at the back, for weed control etc. Unlike a quadbike, it does not require a helmet, and does feature safety harness. During the demonstration the agent inadvertently demonstrated that it is possible to roll it, albeit without injury or damage - as with any vehicle, if you drive it like an idiot, you can crash it.

177712The driver in this picture is the 13yo son of a colleague of mine.

See Electric off road vehicle for leisure activities - Swincar (https://swincar.net)

[NavyDiver]

My 21st Marathon, Marathons are exactly 42.2km not a metre longer or shorter. Great Ocean Road one is 45km so it is NOT counted [biggrin] 1st half of the Marathon was good. Second was honestly a bit tough. I wanted to stop but I am a stubborn bugger. 13 people tried and failed. I have yet to give up[biggrin]
177713

Pleased for two reasons. Wangaratta via Whorouly South was a 600km round trip. It cost $18ish to fast charge in Euroa. That showed me a phone service can be a PITA[biggrin] VODAfone NO Bloody coverage made starting the charge a few seconds longer. Called the Chargefox who started it for me. Took all of a minute[biggrin]

177714177715177716
I just looked at the invoices. I lied "Usage Amount incl GST Charging for 43mins, 14.99kWh @ $0.40/kWh $6.00" on the way back as I charged for free at the Painters Island Caravan park where I rolled out a swag at a powered site[biggrin]
Day before "Charging for 54mins, 30.25kWh @ $0.40/kWh $12.10"

I thought the RACV 10kwh Solar PV at Euroa RACV Chargefox charges was interesting. It is DC only for Fast charging. The time I was there saw 6 others charging. A Lexus plug in hybrid ( Brand New Lexus Dealer from Wodonga) Three Nissan Leafs, A Tesla 3 and another MG. First MGev other than mine I have seen

The Diesel price was spicy. Noting oil prices have backed off over 30% last week which should bring fuel prices down this week??



On another front the MG is now over 16000km old. First service due at 20,000 or April. I think April will get it first.

An Oil leak on my Disco needs a look. Who wants a bet on which costs me more[biggrin] Just kidding I do not bet.

Noticed there is also Fast Chargers in Shepperton and Wodonga. Not suggesting two hours drives is the prefect driving distance between charging.

[4bee]

Speaking of Fuel Cells, US Military can see the massive advantages of EV


https://youtu.be/nzye6NnFBUI

GM Defense Shows Off New, Military-Spec Chevrolet Silverado ZH2 | Carscoops (https://www.carscoops.com/2018/11/gm-defense-shows-off-new-military-spec-chevrolet-silverado-zh2/?fbclid=IwAR2t02zbProH-S41FcAybzkh38oA3qHNzLVseuNdjmNC8UIPRoQIHdssgjc)



"Hey Sarge, all very nice but there ain't no room to put me clobber, wossat it comes with a trailer?



Yer puttin' me on".[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

"Hey Sarge, all very nice but there ain't no room to put me clobber, wossat it comes with a trailer?



Yer puttin' me on".[bigrolf]

Australian Army is highlighting OIL as a huge security risk for us. I dont mind thinking an Hydrogen/Electric tank, trucks and kit like that just might be on a drawing board already[biggrin]

"Foreign oil dependence a 'massive vulnerability' as defence experts call for EVs, green transport" Link (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/calls-for-evs-to-wean-australia-off-foreign-oil-imports/100911930)

Mind you Armchair experts are usually full of methane[bigrolf]

[4bee]

Australian Army is highlighting OIL as a huge security risk for us. I dont mind thinking an Hydrogen/Electric tank, trucks and kit like that just might be on a drawing board already

"[B]Foreign oil dependence a 'massive vulnerability' as defence experts call for EVs, green transport

" Link (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/calls-for-evs-to-wean-australia-off-foreign-oil-imports/100911930)

Mind you Armchair experts are usually full of methane[bigrolf]



But but but, methane is a byproduct of crap. Ah, I see where you are coming from>

[PhilipA]

Bloke at Probus was telling me today that his trip to the Snowy mountains cost only $48 in his Model 3 Long Range.
I said yes but your car the size of a Mazda 3 cost $90K.

Regards PhilipA

[101RRS]

Bloke at Probus was telling me today that his trip to the Snowy mountains cost only $48 in his Model 3 Long Range.
I said yes but your car the size of a Mazda 3 cost $90K.

Regards PhilipA

And how much did he spend on food and coffee waiting for the car to charge.

[4bee]

Bloke at Probus was telling me today that his trip to the Snowy mountains cost only $48 in his Model 3 Long Range.
I said yes but your car the size of a Mazda 3 cost $90K.

Regards PhilipA


That is the dilemma people are having to face but it does seem to be overlooked in many conversations. $90k does still buy a lot of fuel even into the future.


Assuming that was a return journey from Canberra>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<Snowies.

[NavyDiver]

And how much did he spend on food and coffee waiting for the car to charge.

Me-I am cruel. I stopped I Euroa for a few bits not spending at the Service centre where the chargers are well out of town. Local bakery and coffee shop benefited from my two stops [biggrin] I like local businesses myself. All the petrol and diesel types seem to be adding to the McDonalds and three other food places I skipped.

RE the Snow. There is multiple Charge points at Mount Hotham, Mansfield and Mount Bulla and Fast chargers at Falls Creek which would easily make even my short assed range a option. A long range version might not be required?
https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/757608.jpg

No snow chains for mine yet. I might try it for some fun in the snow with out the I.C.E. [biggrin]

NSW is free fast chargers via NRMA charging points. Lucky buggers. I don't mind the price myself. It will have to go up when every one gets a EV of course. Its clear the fast charging points are getting more and more use every time I visit Ballarat and this weekends trip.

It would be a fair to point out there is 20 + petrol or diesel browsers and just 4 Ev Charge points at the places in Euroa. Add the 30 minutes to an hour at the EV charge points means a log jam is likely as more Evs hit the road.

Had a quick look at the new BYD. its about 50K from EVDirect.com.au | BYD Atto 3 - Electric Cars (https://evdirect.com.au/)

480km range maybe. 7 year warranty. and a guitar on both doors :) Crazy?

The battery tech is possibly a step up. I am still waiting for a Disco replacement- Such is life

[4bee]

Me-I am cruel. I stopped I Euroa for a few bits not spending at the Service centre where the chargers are well out of town. Local bakery and coffee shop benefited from my two stops [biggrin] I like local businesses myself. All the petrol and diesel types seem to be adding to the McDonalds and three other food places I skipped.

RE the Snow. There is multiple Charge points at Mount Hotham, Mansfield and Mount Bulla and Fast chargers at Falls Creek which would easily make even my short assed range a option. A long range version might not be required?
https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/757608.jpg

No snow chains for mine yet. I might try it for some fun in the snow with out the I.C.E. [biggrin]

NSW is free fast chargers via NRMA charging points. Lucky buggers. I don't mind the price myself. It will have to go up when every one gets a EV of course. Its clear the fast charging points are getting more and more use every time I visit Ballarat and this weekends trip.

It would be a fair to point out there is 20 + petrol or diesel browsers and just 4 Ev Charge points at the places in Euroa. Add the 30 minutes to an hour at the EV charge points means a log jam is likely as more Evs hit the road.

Had a quick look at the new BYD. its about 50K from EVDirect.com.au | BYD Atto 3 - Electric Cars (https://evdirect.com.au/)

480km range maybe. 7 year warranty. and a guitar on both doors :) Crazy?

The battery tech is possibly a step up. I am still waiting for a Disco replacement- Such is life


No snow chains for mine yet. I might try it for some fun in the snow with out the I.C.E.


Was going to do Cooma, > Dead Horse Gap etc to the other end of The Alpine Way, > Khancoban, without chains on board, in Sept one year . (before it was bituminised)

But the bloke in the Ski Hire joint in Cooma advised against that even in the D1 with knobbly tyres, so all I did in the end was take his set of Hire Chains for a pleasant drive to Khancoban. BASTARD!!

According to him the cops were hot on not carrying Chains. May have been utter Bull**** for all I knew. :BigCry::Rolling: Still, I never got pinched.

[scarry]

Me-I am cruel. I stopped I Euroa for a few bits not spending at the Service centre where the chargers are well out of town. Local bakery and coffee shop benefited from my two stops [biggrin] I like local businesses myself. All the petrol and diesel types seem to be adding to the McDonalds and three other food places I skipped.

RE the Snow. There is multiple Charge points at Mount Hotham, Mansfield and Mount Bulla and Fast chargers at Falls Creek which would easily make even my short assed range a option. A long range version might not be required?
https://photos.plugshare.com/photos/757608.jpg

No snow chains for mine yet. I might try it for some fun in the snow with out the I.C.E. [biggrin]

NSW is free fast chargers via NRMA charging points. Lucky buggers. I don't mind the price myself. It will have to go up when every one gets a EV of course. Its clear the fast charging points are getting more and more use every time I visit Ballarat and this weekends trip.

It would be a fair to point out there is 20 + petrol or diesel browsers and just 4 Ev Charge points at the places in Euroa. Add the 30 minutes to an hour at the EV charge points means a log jam is likely as more Evs hit the road.

Had a quick look at the new BYD. its about 50K from EVDirect.com.au | BYD Atto 3 - Electric Cars (https://evdirect.com.au/)

480km range maybe. 7 year warranty. and a guitar on both doors :) Crazy?

The battery tech is possibly a step up. I am still waiting for a Disco replacement- Such is life

Does it have a heater?
If so how does it work?

Dont tell me it runs on diesel....[bighmmm][biggrin] The heater that is....

[PhilipA]

Does it have a heater?
If so how does it work?
Teslas have heaters for the batteries which reduce range significantly.
The early ones have an electric heater but later ones have a heat exchanger type like reverse cycle aircon for the cabin.
But in cold weather like under 0C a writer Tesla enthusiast in the USA/Canada found his range reduced by AFAIR 30% in below zero weather.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Does it have a heater?
If so how does it work?

Dont tell me it runs on diesel....[bighmmm][biggrin] The heater that is....

Only diesel in my family is my Disco [thumbsupbig]

Battery heat and conditions heats or cools the main battery happily [biggrin] Cold and hot can effect batteries of course and 20 to 30% range reduction likely as well due to the heater and defrosting AC.

Noting Alpine Diesel is added to my Disco when in snow or wax in diesel can freeze up and make starting impossible. ICE Vehicles typically have a 20% reduction in fuel economy at 20° F as well. (-6c brrr)

Not in snow yet. I'll let you know once I go in a few months

[4bee]

Teslas have heaters for the batteries which reduce range significantly.
The early ones have an electric heater but later ones have a heat exchanger type like reverse cycle aircon for the cabin.
But in cold weather like under 0C a writer Tesla enthusiast in the USA/Canada found his range reduced by AFAIR 30% in below zero weather.
Regards PhilipA


One assumes that with A/C cooling it'd be even less again. They are air cond aren't they?[bighmmm]

[PhilipA]

Remember how some posters were saying that no ICE car manufacturers are developing new ICE engines.

Why Stellantis Built a New Twin-Turbo I6 Engine on the Eve of Electrification (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/44900/why-stellantis-built-a-new-twin-turbo-i6-engine-on-the-eve-of-electrification)
As Mark twain said "“The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.”
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

Remember how some posters were saying that no ICE car manufacturers are developing new ICE engines

Yep,rubbish it all was.

There are a huge number of manufacturers developing ICE engines.

[4bee]

Yep,rubbish it all was.

There are a huge number of manufacturers developing ICE engines.



They should operate well at Dead Horse Gap then, Paul.[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

this is almost funny? I keep thinking of selling my short range version and waiting for the longer range yet find the price increase for just a bit more hard to justify.
A mate is trying to buy one Salary Sacrifice I think. The fact he spent 15K for fuel last year plus servicing costs has him thinking even if he paid $1500 for the equivalent Grid supplied power it makes sense. Not my numbers nor did it include the tax deduction consideration he is thinking of using.

A used car selling for more than purchase price might not be just a EV thing of course?
“Stunning failure of policy:” Second-hand Tesla Model 3 sells for more than original price (https://thedriven.io/2022/03/24/stunning-failure-of-policy-second-hand-tesla-model-3-sells-for-more-than-original-price/)

[JDNSW]

Not just Tesla, and not just EVs. There is a serious shortage of most new cars at present, resulting in long delivery times - and strong demand for used cars - with prices of both new and s/h going up.

[PhilipA]

This is a good analysis by Robert Pepper on why EVs will have to be improved significantly/enormously to be able to tow a van for long distances.

Can an EV work as a 4x4 tourer or long distance tower? Will it ruin the weekend? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7tjz9Othg&ab_channel=L2SFBC-RobertPepper-autojourno)

Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

This is a good analysis by Robert Pepper on why EVs will have to be improved significantly/enormously to be able to tow a van for long distances.

Can an EV work as a 4x4 tourer or long distance tower? Will it ruin the weekend? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ7tjz9Othg&ab_channel=L2SFBC-RobertPepper-autojourno)

Regards PhilipA

Unfortunately,ATM they are also basically useless for any Tradie,that is the ones that use utes,vans,etc.
And the many that drag trailers around.

[NavyDiver]

Not just Tesla, and not just EVs. There is a serious shortage of most new cars at present, resulting in long delivery times - and strong demand for used cars - with prices of both new and s/h going up.

BYD is the new cheap EV in oz OR NOT. 400,000 on back order and the few bound for OZ have all been sold a nasty rumor has it . Ditto for Kia Ev6 and a Nissan.. both of who have a interesting 800w charging bit which would smash recharging time.

You cannot have one. I tried buying one[bawl][bawl][bawl]

[Vern]

BYD is the new cheap EV in oz OR NOT. 400,000 on back order and the few bound for OZ have all been sold a nasty rumor has it . Ditto for Kia Ev6 and a Nissan.. both of who have a interesting 800w charging bit which would smash recharging time.

You cannot have one. I tried buying one[bawl][bawl][bawl]You may have to step it up and order the Polestar2, geee thats a nice looking EV.
I'm going to hit the boss up to see if I can salary sacrifice one, I'm sure he will say yes since his company is a Solar specialist business[emoji6]

[NavyDiver]

You may have to step it up and order the Polestar2, geee thats a nice looking EV.
I'm going to hit the boss up to see if I can salary sacrifice one, I'm sure he will say yes since his company is a Solar specialist business[emoji6]

Admit I am tempted to take on for a Drive. The Volvo link and more look great. I am not after a high end car sadly perhaps. Tempted to take a holiday to see about a 4wd option to import IF the share market keeps being as kind to me as it has been over the last few years.

Offer the Boss Advertising rights for the the solar business via vinyl wrapping "your" Polestar2
It may just make it a certain win win for both of you with the current fuel prices [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

"PARIS (Reuters) - Sales of new electrified vehicles in France overtook petrol-powered equivalents for the first time in the first quarter, a major milestone for lower-emission vehicles amid high prices at petrol pumps and government subsidies for electrified models."

Not suggesting Australia should have more subsidies! Simply removing the Billions of Government subsidies for Coal, Gas and similar would make it a fair playing field [bigrolf]


I may have been wrong about the log jam at BYD??? An artical today sugested delivery in August. What it did not of course say if that is for existing prior orders or for new ones? Suspect it is for those with existing orders

The French news went on to say "Encouraged by subsidies, looming bans on fossil-fuel models and high petrol prices, electrified models have become mainstream in a very short space of time.
The top-selling electric car in France in March was Tesla's mass-market Model 3, followed by the Dacia Spring from Renault and the Peugeot 208 from Stellantis."
Supply chain issues are not quickly fixed. Chips impact on ICE and EV of course.

177858
Sadly not Salt and Vinegar'
I did not buy TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductors) Shame perhaps! Saw those huge factories year ago - The are wow in size and output. The orders for other chips- Chicken! Just kidding is the issue.
EU and America all trying to win as an option as is China of course.

European Commission (EC), which in February announced (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_22_729) a Chips Act. The EC will plough 43bn euros (£36bn) of public and private investment into Europe's semiconductor industry. The Commission hopes to, among other things, increase the region's share of global chip manufacturing - from less than 10% to 20%.




Life used to be so simple- Holden or a Ford? [biggrin]

[4bee]

"PARIS (Reuters) - Sales of new electrified vehicles in France overtook petrol-powered equivalents for the first time in the first quarter, a major milestone for lower-emission vehicles amid high prices at petrol pumps and government subsidies for electrified models."

Not suggesting Australia should have more subsidies! Simply removing the Billions of Government subsidies for Coal, Gas and similar would make it a fair playing field [bigrolf]


I may have been wrong about the log jam at BYD??? An artical today sugested delivery in August. What it did not of course say if that is for existing prior orders or for new ones? Suspect it is for those with existing orders

The French news went on to say "Encouraged by subsidies, looming bans on fossil-fuel models and high petrol prices, electrified models have become mainstream in a very short space of time.
The top-selling electric car in France in March was Tesla's mass-market Model 3, followed by the Dacia Spring from Renault and the Peugeot 208 from Stellantis."
Supply chain issues are not quickly fixed. Chips impact on ICE and EV of course.

177858
Sadly not Salt and Vinegar'
I did not buy TSMC (Taiwan Semiconductors) Shame perhaps! Saw those huge factories year ago - The are wow in size and output. The orders for other chips- Chicken! Just kidding is the issue.
EU and America all trying to win as an option as is China of course.

European Commission (EC), which in February announced (https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_22_729) a Chips Act. The EC will plough 43bn euros (£36bn) of public and private investment into Europe's semiconductor industry. The Commission hopes to, among other things, increase the region's share of global chip manufacturing - from less than 10% to 20%.




Life used to be so simple- Holden or a Ford? [biggrin]






Now, if the Frogs could only do summat about the Horns. Maybe use a quite one for instance?[bigrolf]

[PhilipA]

Not suggesting Australia should have more subsidies! Simply removing the Billions of Government subsidies for Coal, Gas and similar would make it a fair playing field [bigrolf]


You mean the coal and gas that taxes on are currently supporting the Australian economy along with the terrible Iron Ore?

I wish that critics of resources would get real and not quote the bull**** greeny stuff that quotes "social costs" as subsidies and count all the non existent Notional deaths from pollution in Australia.

If I die from pollution it will be from the bloody wood smoke from my neighbours' heaters and of course wood is great because it is "renewable" in about 50 years.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

You mean the coal and gas that taxes on are currently supporting the Australian economy along with the terrible Iron Ore?

I wish that critics of resources would get real and not quote the bull**** greeny stuff that quotes "social costs" as subsidies and count all the non existent Notional deaths from pollution in Australia.

If I die from pollution it will be from the bloody wood smoke from my neighbours' heaters and of course wood is great because it is "renewable" in about 50 years.
Regards PhilipA

No Philip I mean the many millions of direct and indirect taxpayer support given to several sectors very quietly. I appreciate the benefit exports provide Australia. They are needed as well for the changes with Iron, Cooper, Nickle, Lithium rare earths and ... all required and most of which will be mined in a more sustainable way soon any way.

New exports for example are already set to replace the very dirty black molecule focus some people love dearly. Old topic you can see if you look? Fact check: Does the government subsidise Australia’s fossil fuel industry? (https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/08/07/matt-canavan-fossil-fuel/)
A little old quote " 2019 International Monetary Fund (working paper (https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2019/05/02/Global-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-Remain-Large-An-Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509) which found fossil fuels in Australia received US$29 billion in subsidies in 2015."

On a much brighter note 50 billion invested sound great to me
"Australia iron ore billionaire Andrew Forrest has struck a potential $50 billion green hydrogen agreement with German energy giant E.ON to produce up to five million tonnes of green hydrogen by 2030.The landmark agreement could deliver one third of Forrest’s hugely ambitious plans to produce 15 million tonnes of green hydrogen by 2030 (https://reneweconomy.com.au/fortescue-says-its-very-stretch-15m-tonne-green-hydrogen-targets-now-very-achievable/), a target the head of his own green energy company Fortescue Future Industries Julie Shuttleworth thought was “very, very stretch”, but now says is quite achievable.“We cannot keep gambling our energy security and the planet’s future on fossil fuels,” Shuttleworth said in a statement on Tuesday. “Green hydrogen is the practical, implementable solution to decarbonise and lower emissions.”
"

[Tombie]

Andrew’s a good bloke. A few here have met/know him.

[350RRC]

You mean the coal and gas that taxes on are currently supporting the Australian economy along with the terrible Iron Ore?

I wish that critics of resources would get real and not quote the bull**** greeny stuff that quotes "social costs" as subsidies and count all the non existent Notional deaths from pollution in Australia.

If I die from pollution it will be from the bloody wood smoke from my neighbours' heaters and of course wood is great because it is "renewable" in about 50 years.
Regards PhilipA

The 'taxes' on oil and gas (and oil) are royalties on non-renewable assets that Australia and its citizens own, allow and encourage commercial enterprise in the exploration and exploitation of those finite resources.

These things can only be sold once and all citizens of the land of milk and honey should benefit, and their government should have enough lazy cash to protect this ongoing endeavour with subs, planes, ships and shirtfronting.

Some sustainable commercial fishing sectors also pay royalties, but that is more akin to a 'super profit' tax than a royalty. I've been in the room while this has been negotiated.


Wood fired heaters should be N/A in residential areas and in some places they are becoming non legal, with council rebates for flue and heater removal.

Black wattle is the fastest growing Oz native tree, eminently capable of melting the arse out of your heater if used alone, and grows to useful size (15m high and 150mm dia trunk) in less than 10 years around here.

cheers, DL

[JDNSW]

No Philip I mean the many millions of direct and indirect taxpayer support given to several sectors very quietly. I appreciate the benefit exports provide Australia........


What exactly are these subsidies, and to what extent do they exceed "subsidies" given to other industries? I see this claim repeatedly, but have yet to see a clear explanation of what subsidies are explicitly given to fossil fuel industries as opposed to industry in general.

And perhaps also worth pointing out that minerals are mostly "owned", not by "Australians", but by the Crown, i.e. by the states. (In a few very rare cases they are owned by landholders).

And the main reason for strong government support for these industries is that all Australian governments get a lot of their income from fossil fuels. In the case of NSW and Qld from coal royalties, and WA, SA, Qld, Victoria, NT from oil and gas royalties, and all states and territories from the GST resulting from this economic activity, and the Commonwealth from company tax from both the fossil fuel companies and their suppliers and contractors and personal income tax from employees and shareholders. Not to mention fuel excise on most petrol and diesel.

What I have yet to see is realistic proposals to replace this revenue.

[NavyDiver]

What exactly are these subsidies, and to what extent do they exceed "subsidies" given to other industries? I see this claim repeatedly, but have yet to see a clear explanation of what subsidies are explicitly given to fossil fuel industries as opposed to industry in general.

And perhaps also worth pointing out that minerals are mostly "owned", not by "Australians", but by the Crown, i.e. by the states. (In a few very rare cases they are owned by landholders).

And the main reason for strong government support for these industries is that all Australian governments get a lot of their income from fossil fuels. In the case of NSW and Qld from coal royalties, and WA, SA, Qld, Victoria, NT from oil and gas royalties, and all states and territories from the GST resulting from this economic activity, and the Commonwealth from company tax from both the fossil fuel companies and their suppliers and contractors and personal income tax from employees and shareholders. Not to mention fuel excise on most petrol and diesel.

What I have yet to see is realistic proposals to replace this revenue.

Not in tax any more happy to say. I do know I and almost all of us get direct and indirect payment via the tax system. Mine are small.

Not suggesting Oil, gas and Coal are the only ones getting Tax payer subsidies.

On replacement revenues the news is very very good. Uranium, Hydrogen, Green steel and Aluminum from hydrogen or Cheap solar, wind.... may make the change from export ore from Australia to end product much cheaper here. :)

An EV has 4 times the volume of Cooper to our current cars I think I mentioned?


Revenue replacement one. Job shifts is two. There is a list of other bits of course. We are in a very very lucky place with several huge natural and political legal stability advantages over most other locations.

Aluminum is made where ever there is very cheap power. With China choking on pollution created making stuff now even they are changing how to get power as quickly as possible. They are currently cranking up Aluminum output which is due to a war and demand hitting the prices.

I wonder if Alcoa just might change tact at its Portland smelter? I just looked- My FAV 3 bays marathon is safer perhaps?
"PITTSBURGH--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Alcoa Corporation (NYSE: AA) announced today that the Portland Aluminium joint venture plans to restart 35,000 metric tons per year (mtpy) of curtailed capacity at its aluminum smelter in the State of Victoria in Australia.
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx)
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx) The process to restart the capacity, which has been idle since 2009, will begin immediately, with metal production expected to start in the third quarter of 2022.
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx)
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx) Portland Aluminium is an unincorporated joint venture with 358,000 mtpy of total capacity, and Alcoa Corporation has 197,000 mtpy of consolidated capacity. Once the restart is complete, Portland Aluminium will operate at approximately 95 percent of total capacity and Alcoa Corporation will have approximately 186,000 mtpy of its consolidated capacity at Portland operating (https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx)."



What does Alcoa's choice say? "Power will be cheaper here", jobs will stay here, industry will move here to me! Personally I see power likely to be cheapest at the HUGE solar, wind, hydrogen, ammonia.. production plans in Western Australia. Blind Freddy can see that[biggrin]

Iron ore to go overseas or stay here? Which makes more revenue? Which would you prefer to see? Personally I want some iron ore in a Hazer hydrogen plant ASAP here there and everywhere myself[biggrin]

The human and political negatives of killing people with pollution in China are clear.

The positives of moving massive $$$$$$$$ subsidies from dead and dying coal and similar sectors to the NEW ones is also very clear. New and larger revenue for our country. More jobs and safe and stable power.

Every one can and does have there own views on this of course. The coal dead cat bounce is occurring now. Money can and will be made.

On the bright side We all owe coal power a lot. On the dark side all of us and our kids have a huge ongoing debt due to that benefit we can now all see from the coal burnt and the C02 emission.

Back on EV specific The Traralgon Marathon on in June. Is there a Fast charger? I have - not really a problem as my quirky ev even at a turtle power plug charge rate gets me there and back[biggrin] - I just looked Moe has one[thumbsupbig] $6-18ish will be much cheaper that the train and sooo much cheaper than my Disco drive. A free 22kw charger that may or may not work is at "Traralgon Centre Plaza" Its a Tesla destination charger. They can be wired for everyone or just Tesla's They are often a PITA to use anyway. One hour time limit for example in Warrnambool with at least two hours charging to get to another location just one silly bit with that type. Warrnambool Tesla destination charge is also located at the wrong end for my car[bighmmm] I skip it entirely now.


Not sitting Traralgon Centre Plaza for 4 hours or do I just park it there while I run the marathon? So many questions. The big one is will I finally get under 4 hours again this run? Really that is my main aim [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] My sub 3 dreams are fading[bighmmm]

[Tombie]

New and larger revenue, offset by newer larger cost of living.

That’s the whole economic issue that needs to be understood and dealt with.

[PhilipA]

I noted a couple of days ago that I think it was on TV that Tesla recorded AFAIR 4485 sales in March 2022.

If so that is a fabulous result and really no other EV is within a "bulls Roar".
In fact it would have been one of the top sellers of any car ICE or EV.
Regards PhilipA

[Vern]

Not in tax any more happy to say. I do know I and almost all of us get direct and indirect payment via the tax system. Mine are small.

Not suggesting Oil, gas and Coal are the only ones getting Tax payer subsidies.

On replacement revenues the news is very very good. Uranium, Hydrogen, Green steel and Aluminum from hydrogen or Cheap solar, wind.... may make the change from export ore from Australia to end product much cheaper here. :)

An EV has 4 times the volume of Cooper to our current cars I think I mentioned?


Revenue replacement one. Job shifts is two. There is a list of other bits of course. We are in a very very lucky place with several huge natural and political legal stability advantages over most other locations.

Aluminum is made where ever there is very cheap power. With China choking on pollution created making stuff now even they are changing how to get power as quickly as possible. They are currently cranking up Aluminum output which is due to a war and demand hitting the prices.

I wonder if Alcoa just might change tact at its Portland smelter? I just looked- My FAV 3 bays marathon is safer perhaps?
"PITTSBURGH--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- Alcoa Corporation (NYSE: AA) announced today that the Portland Aluminium joint venture plans to restart 35,000 metric tons per year (mtpy) of curtailed capacity at its aluminum smelter in the State of Victoria in Australia.
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx)
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx) The process to restart the capacity, which has been idle since 2009, will begin immediately, with metal production expected to start in the third quarter of 2022.
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx)
(https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx) Portland Aluminium is an unincorporated joint venture with 358,000 mtpy of total capacity, and Alcoa Corporation has 197,000 mtpy of consolidated capacity. Once the restart is complete, Portland Aluminium will operate at approximately 95 percent of total capacity and Alcoa Corporation will have approximately 186,000 mtpy of its consolidated capacity at Portland operating (https://investors.alcoa.com/news-releases/news-release-details/2021/Alcoa-Plans-to-Restart-Curtailed-Aluminum-Smelting-Capacity-at-Portland-Aluminium-in-Australia/default.aspx)."



What does Alcoa's choice say? "Power will be cheaper here", jobs will stay here, industry will move here to me! Personally I see power likely to be cheapest at the HUGE solar, wind, hydrogen, ammonia.. production plans in Western Australia. Blind Freddy can see that[biggrin]

Iron ore to go overseas or stay here? Which makes more revenue? Which would you prefer to see? Personally I want some iron ore in a Hazer hydrogen plant ASAP here there and everywhere myself[biggrin]

The human and political negatives of killing people with pollution in China are clear.

The positives of moving massive $$$$$$$$ subsidies from dead and dying coal and similar sectors to the NEW ones is also very clear. New and larger revenue for our country. More jobs and safe and stable power.

Every one can and does have there own views on this of course. The coal dead cat bounce is occurring now. Money can and will be made.

On the bright side We all owe coal power a lot. On the dark side all of us and our kids have a huge ongoing debt due to that benefit we can now all see from the coal burnt and the C02 emission.

Back on EV specific The Traralgon Marathon on in June. Is there a Fast charger? I have - not really a problem as my quirky ev even at a turtle power plug charge rate gets me there and back[biggrin] - I just looked Moe has one[thumbsupbig] $6-18ish will be much cheaper that the train and sooo much cheaper than my Disco drive. A free 22kw charger that may or may not work is at "Traralgon Centre Plaza" Its a Tesla destination charger. They can be wired for everyone or just Tesla's They are often a PITA to use anyway. One hour time limit for example in Warrnambool with at least two hours charging to get to another location just one silly bit with that type. Warrnambool Tesla destination charge is also located at the wrong end for my car[bighmmm] I skip it entirely now.


Not sitting Traralgon Centre Plaza for 4 hours or do I just park it there while I run the marathon? So many questions. The big one is will I finally get under 4 hours again this run? Really that is my main aim [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] My sub 3 dreams are fading[bighmmm]Yes to a charger, there is one out the front of RACV solar warehouse in Traralgon.
I can PM my mate Andy who is the CEO and find out if it's a fast charger.

[Vern]

Stock land Underground carpark has a charger, otherwise everything else is tesla

[NavyDiver]

I noted a couple of days ago that I think it was on TV that Tesla recorded AFAIR 4485 sales in March 2022.

If so that is a fabulous result and really no other EV is within a "bulls Roar".
In fact it would have been one of the top sellers of any car ICE or EV.
Regards PhilipA

Like ice to EV things change quickly. I hear BYD "claims it will import 15,000 cars before the end of 2022, suggesting ambitions to outsell electric vehicle market leader Tesla (https://www.drive.com.au/showrooms/Tesla/) in its first year on sale."

Not owning one yet give the sold out of everything not costing $$$$$$$$ to run it might be possible. A taxi fleet order rumor is interesting. I did see a article comparing German built /Chinese build musk ones . It might be interesting if anyone is looking at that brand.

Still waiting for our favorite brand to get its skates on for us. [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

I noted a couple of days ago that I think it was on TV that Tesla recorded AFAIR 4485 sales in March 2022.

If so that is a fabulous result and really no other EV is within a "bulls Roar".
In fact it would have been one of the top sellers of any car ICE or EV.
Regards PhilipA

3097 in March for Tesla bring them into the top 10. Model 3 came in 5th overall - beating both the Ford Ranger and Hyundai I 30 so a very impressive result.

All figures taken from here which are the monthly Vfacts data - VFACTS: March 2022 car sales figures released | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/vfacts-march-2022-car-sales-figures-released)

[JDNSW]

I suspect that all car sales figures at present reflect the available number of cars - not the number of cars buyers would like to get. And this is not just EVs - yesterday my older son had someone back into his Suzuki. Looked this morning at getting a replacement, a new Kia, not an EV. Delivery - 18 months!

[vnx205]

I assume it is a consequence of the unavailability of new cars that something happened that I have never seen before.

For several decades I have had agreed value insurance on my vehicles with the NRMA.

Each year I watch their estimate of the value of my car drop.

However that has just changed. Last year my Hybrid Camry was valued it $18,100. This year (for exactly the same premium), it is valued at $20,500.

According to the NRMA it increased in value by $2,400 in the last 12 months.

[Homestar]

I assume it is a consequence of the unavailability of new cars that something happened that I have never seen before.

For several decades I have had agreed value insurance on my vehicles with the NRMA.

Each year I watch their estimate of the value of my car drop.

However that has just changed. Last year my Hybrid Camry was valued it $18,100. This year (for exactly the same premium), it is valued at $20,500.

According to the NRMA it increased in value by $2,400 in the last 12 months.

My Daughters ‘97 Camry had a payout figure for the fire & theft portion of the insurance at $1,900 last year - her renewal just turned up - this year it’s $4,200! That’s a crappy old Camry with 300,000KM on the clock. I don’t think she’d be too upset if it got pinched now.

[ramblingboy42]

there will be a surge in new car sales in the next 60-90 days as insurance claims from recent flooding and storm damage are settled.

this is not really indicative of the market as many people are opportunity buying and vehicle availability is limited

a friend and a relative are both purchasing new Teslas and another is considering an MG as a suburban runner.

guess it's a good time to buy what you weren't really considering to buy.

[Tombie]

Right now you either need to take what you can or be prepared to wait.

As above, Old Camry get stolen - sure you’ll get more money. But the equivalent POS will be thrice the payout.

[NavyDiver]

there will be a surge in new car sales in the next 60-90 days as insurance claims from recent flooding and storm damage are settled.

this is not really indicative of the market as many people are opportunity buying and vehicle availability is limited

a friend and a relative are both purchasing new Teslas and another is considering an MG as a suburban runner.

guess it's a good time to buy what you weren't really considering to buy.



I heard a motoring gent suggest you demand the V.I.N. at the time promised delivery date as that stops it being given to some one who jacked the line via means not given to mere mortals who then get pushed back down the food chain[bighmmm]

A large tojo ordered several months ago by my sister is not in the country. I think it was over a year ago. I did offer to lend them my tow tug[biggrin] Happily they didn't boat to fishing stations this weekend!

Another staff member promised a good second hand offering over a year ago, still hasn't got it as the person giving it to her has not got the new car they ordered well over a year ago. Not sure what that brand/type is.

[gromit]

I'm not sure if dealers move cars around amongst themselves.
Phoned one dealer and told next year delivery.
Phoned another and I collect the car (same model as the first dealer) at the end of the month.
It's actually arrived but I need to do some work on the old vehicle while I can offset the work against tax.

Lucky but the price is more that I expected to pay !


Colin

[NavyDiver]

"The cost of insuring electric vehicles (EV) in Australia will eventually drop as demand continues, but in the meantime the industry's fledgling supply chain and relatively new technology mean premiums are almost double for a regular car."
[bighmmm][bighmmm]

With 4 insurance policies at the moment the 2 Evs in the family are not that bad with insurance. Disco seem about the same. My sons age impacts significantly on that ICE car.

It is an issue. Noted my uncles RAM
is a problem after hitting a rock in a paddock. RAM Parts are not in Australia. Cost and time of 6 months is insane I think! It is a big truck. "The disruption of Covid-19 on vehicle production plants and factory workers, combined with shipping and transport shortages, quarantine issues, and a shortage of essential vehicle components such as semi-conductor microchips and other parts that have reduced production at present, are all contributing to supply shortages and delays. On top of this, new model launches, growing popularity and awareness of the Ram brand in Australia, and a shift from overseas travel to domestic travel, have seen us experience unprecedented demand for our product.We understand this is frustrating for our customers, as it is for our entire industry, and throughout the journey we may experience setbacks, resulting in changes in vehicle ETA’s. We appreciate your continued patience throughout these times and encourage our customers to please:" Official Ram Trucks Website | Ram Trucks Australia (https://www.ramtrucks.com.au/)


I do not need or want a RAM happily. Nearly $2 per ltr for my 2.7ltr Disco last weekend was more than enough cost for me over his "6.7L Cummins Turbo Diesel when it is running again of course

Issue is not just EVs[bawl]
178300

[JDNSW]

there will be a surge in new car sales in the next 60-90 days as insurance claims from recent flooding and storm damage are settled.

.....

I think it depends on what you refer to as "sales". More orders, certainly, but actual deliveries? Bit hard to see where they will come from, with almost all brands quoting many months delivery for new cars. And this is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future, from what I can see.

[350RRC]

...............

'We understand this is frustrating for our customers, as it is for our entire industry, and throughout the journey we may experience setbacks, resulting in changes in vehicle ETA’s.....................

As I was reading that spiel I was waiting for the 'Thanks for reaching out to us' line.

Ram must be a bit behind the times.

DL

[NavyDiver]

Aussie win here "Brisbane-based electric vehicle charging company Tritium has inked a major deal with global oil major BP to support its shift to electric mobility with the supply of EV chargers and related services.
The multi-year global contract, announced by Tritium over the weekend, will kick off with an initial order for the UK and Australia and New Zealand markets of just under 1,000 of the company’s direct current fast chargers. Link (https://thedriven.io/2022/04/19/tritium-signs-major-new-deal-to-supply-ev-fast-chargers-to-bp/)" Edit Brisbane based? I charged my car at a place in Burwood vic and met the Wang who said hi and had a brief chat [biggrin]

Not all of that 1000 fast chargers are for BP in Australia sadly [bawl] Tossers at Tesla have also again said non Tesla will be able to use their fast charges one day with out giving details on when or what year. [bigwhistle]

I am not anti Tesla just think it is blood rude I cannot pay to use their chargers when they sit unused as I drive past[tonguewink]

Another bit was the Super fast charge via Chargefox price went from 40c per kw to 60 cents. Not at all fussed myself The 50KW per hour price is still the 40cents Link (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/chargefox-ultra-rapid-charging-fees-to-increase-by-50-per-cent)

[NavyDiver]

"ALL-ELECTRIC LAND ROVERS FROM 2024 From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers. This is a significant step in our vision to dramatically reduce pollution and achieve a truly sustainable future.

" its Landrover information (https://www.landrover.com.au/electric/suv.html).


"CAPABILITY WITHOUT COMPROMISE The instant torque from the electric side of a Land Rover PHEV is used to enhance already extraordinary capability on slippery slopes and challenging rock crawls1.

When it comes to negotiating streams and flooded roads, our latest PHEVs – like all Land Rovers – can submerge up to a maximum depth of between 500mm and 900mm dependent on model2. Ramp and departure angles remain uncompromised.

"

I wonder if the delay to 2024 is for Solid state batteries? If so range may be 800ish km and recharge 5 minutes where and if suitable power is available. Still watching Quatumscape and Toyota also having a heap of patents in Solid state batteries.

Waiting is a PITA yet sensible with off road remote capability likely to be significantly enhanced by several hydrogen full cell generators I am watching for my work replacement UPS system due in similar time frame to Landrovers 2024 EV target.

[Tombie]

Considering it’s 70,000km to offset the build emissions of something small like a LEAF, I’m still not convinced this is anywhere near as green as claimed.

H atoms I’m leaning towards if made effectively

But electrons in a battery - nope

[NavyDiver]

Considering it’s 70,000km to offset the build emissions of something small like a LEAF, I’m still not convinced this is anywhere near as green as claimed.

H atoms I’m leaning towards if made effectively

But electrons in a battery - nope

Might be right. Not certain myself. I guess if we need a car then the enbeded energy and costs and ongoing maintenance, fuel and oil adds a bit of emissions?

I did hear a person mention that the entire payback time for a wind generator including the huge single pour concrete base is less than 6 months then it is free power from then on. That was for cost and embedded carbon in building the entire thing.

Still yet to service my MG until next week due to ISO last week. It will be interesting to see what occurs at very close to 20,000 traveled in it.

[350RRC]

.................

I did hear a person mention that the entire payback time for a wind generator including the huge single pour concrete base is less than 6 months then it is free power from then on. That was for cost and embedded carbon in building the entire thing.

...............

I've read extensively about this.

There is a lot of stuff on the web related to a very selective quote from many years ago that says wind generators never reach energy payback over a 25 year lifespan. No one in that camp provides the maths. There are none to support that idea.

The older 1.5 Mw turbines would reach payback in less than a year in general, the newer 4+ Mw turbines would be a lot less than that.

It's not hard to convert the whole energy cost of the mining, refining, manufacturing, transport, etc of turbines into a coal tonnage equivalent and then compare the electricity that coal tonnage can generate with what a turbine does.

That even includes the massive concrete footings some need.

A turbine will produce its rated capacity times its its co-efficient of efficiency, which varies due to location.

That info is not easy to get, but the older 3.3 Mw turbines at Kiata were operating at 47%, the newer ones will be higher than that.

I still view wind turbines as a transition in generation from coal to something else..... they're not something that's going to still be around in another 50 years.

cheers, DL

[johnp38]

I still view wind turbines as a transition in generation from coal to something else..... they're not something that's going to still be around in another 50 years.

cheers, DL

I am too lazy to do the maths but a wind turbine at 40% efficiency I am thinking takes up a lot less land space than equivalent output in solar panels?

And I would rather try my luck at siphoning power off a wind turbine / solar farm when pooh hits the fan next zombie apocalypse than try and keep a small modular nuclear reactor going !

Anyway on an even lesser serious note I bet you 10 dollars they WILL still be around in 50 years time (I am not stating if they should be operational, hmmm....[biggrin])

Ok Ok I'll just run off and check my blood sugar level ......

[NavyDiver]

One year on. 19000KM + a few traveled. $169 inc gst. No oil of fluids required. Long report of what was checked with notes on tread and brakes remaining being only note. Best bit is its is just a bit further to run home from the other side of Ringwood than Ritters in Burwood and according to my running watch thing I broke 2 records? One was fastest mile and 2nd was fastest kilometre.

Suspect my watch is being very kind as the times while a bit quicker than my post crash times are SLOW compared to my prior times. Average speed 10kph it said. I would love to see 15kph for 5km+ soon :)

Ritters in Burwood does have the advantage of running or riding. Bike does not fit in the MG. Bike fits on or in the Disco I am to tight to put a bike rack on the MG :)

[Homestar]

Another autopilot accident. Given the current laws, this still means the driver was at fault and negligent so I’m sure he’ll cop a fine, emergency service bill and the repairs to the guard rail arriving in the mail shortly. Be interesting to see what his insurance says.

Driver claims Tesla's Autopilot malfunctioned when it mounted barrier in Melbourne (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.9news.com.au/article/2e538071-5643-4bad-8410-118a583e11d7)

[JDNSW]

I don't think he has a leg to stand on unless he can prove it turned the steering with more force than he could counter. If you let the car steer itself you, the driver, are still legally responsible for where it steers. I cannot see any way in which this legal principle can be changed in the foreseeable future.

[Homestar]

Yeah, agree 100%. Where does this leave any owner of a Tesla with this tech? Is it a kind of ‘it won’t happen to me’ thing so people take this risk or do they not understand that an Insurance company will wipe them if something like this happens?

A few years back vehicle autonomy was on everyone’s lips, but it seems to have gone quiet. I think there’s a thread on that somewhere. I only posted the link here as it was an EV, but it should probably be in the other thread.

[Vern]

Well not a new EV, but a mate of mine is the CEO for RACV Solar, and I saw this on his instagram page. [emoji41]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220516/cd21242b6621ee57c9681e0304a39fcc.jpg

[NavyDiver]

Back to Bendigo with a bit more weight in the EV tomorrow current and former Vic POL who are all like me just reformed 15/16 year old sailors[biggrin] The current sgt to be in my car is a bit more size than I. Stand to Bendigo RSL EV Incoming [biggrin] The Landy wave is ignored when I am driving the mg. [bawl] Or is it my big ugly mug perhaps [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

$16 there and back[biggrin] My head is a bit more than sore after walking back in the dark we had to get off road and took a dive! My head is black and blue[bighmmm]

I am charging again now at home but that was with Solar for a bit so costs are a bit less.

The WLTP range is crap plus. I am getting about 200km at the most at highway speed. Same goes with all most every current EV. Roll on new battery tech. The difference between 80, 100 and 110kph is significant in mine. [bawl]

Noticed the Cyber UTE is now not coming to Australia and refunds are about to be sent to people who ordered one[bighmmm]

[Homestar]

Noticed the Cyber UTE is now not coming to Australia and refunds are about to be sent to people who ordered one[bighmmm]

Well there's a shocker - who'd have thought.... [biggrin]

[scarry]

The difference between 80, 100 and 110kph is significant in mine. [bawl]

As it is in an ICE vehicle,but most don’t give a hoot,like me[biggrin]

This vehicle we have now has a real time graph for fuel economy,and the difference sitting on 100kph compared with 110kph is quite significant.Same between 80 Kmh and 100.
Not that I watch it often,I just drive to the speed limit or conditions,and have it on CC when I can which is most of the time.

[Tombie]

As it is in an ICE vehicle,but most don’t give a hoot,like me[biggrin]

This vehicle we have now has a real time graph for fuel economy,and the difference sitting on 100kph compared with 110kph is quite significant.Same between 80 Kmh and 100.
Not that I watch it often,I just drive to the speed limit or conditions,and have it on CC when I can which is most of the time.

Warning - deviates from topic a little..

Had a “conversation” with a couple on Friday over UHF.
Seems they thought my overtaking and persistent movement at posted limits was wasteful and that my haste cost me money for no benefit.

This was because we passed them 3 times on a 400km drive.
Passed, later stopped, Pull back to highway, catch up, pass again etc.

Was told it was silly to do so, that all I was doing was burning fuel for no gain.

Asked how far they had travelled that day - same total of 400km was the plan.

I was burning 10.8l/100 sitting on 112km/h

I stopped 3 times for 10 minutes each time, got out, had a walk, a drink, comfort break etc. I was focused and relaxed.

They however hadn’t stopped, were tired (his comment) and by his driving was showing lack of focus.

When I pointed out my 30min of breaks I was admonished.

Last I heard of him, by my calculations, he was 20km and about 30 minutes behind me - his Cruiser sucking 16l/100km at 80km/h (mine does that consumption towing our van at 110).

Fatigue is not worth the conservation of fuel!

My recent weekend trip (2000km it turned out to be) towing cost me the grand total of $45 more to do the speed limit and cut about 3 hours of drive time out.

[scarry]

Last I heard of him, by my calculations, he was 20km and about 30 minutes behind me - his Cruiser sucking 16l/100km at 80km/h (mine does that consumption towing our van at 110).

That sort of fuel consumption the vehicle(if it’s a 200)is either highly modded,driven stupidly or has something wrong with it,or towing which it wasn’t.

The one under our carport fuel consumption is very similar to our old D4,particularly on a run,but if flogged,it will use more than our old D4,but then again,it’s quite a bit quicker also.

But yes,agree with your comments,some have no idea.

[Homestar]

I’ve only got to put an empty tandem trailer on my Hilux and it’s at 16. At 2 tonne towing its 20. I’m glad I don’t pay for fuel for it. Not sure what a 200 series should be but I don’t rate Toyotas as economical by any means compared to others.

[loanrangie]

Surprise, surprise, Telsa has stopped taking orders and are refunding deposits for the toddler designed cyber flunk - it was never going to make it to market in that guise.

[scarry]

I’ve only got to put an empty tandem trailer on my Hilux and it’s at 16. At 2 tonne towing its 20. I’m glad I don’t pay for fuel for it. Not sure what a 200 series should be but I don’t rate Toyotas as economical by any means compared to others.

Our 2.2L Rangers we use for work use .5L/100 less than the 3.0L Tojo vans,which is bugga all.
We know this as all fuel and distance travelled is logged.
They both carry same sort of weight and do same sort of work.
One thing,the Ranger screams it’s arse off half the day,loves to rev,where the other doesn’t.
I can guess which one will last the longest.[bighmmm]

As I said before the 200 is very similar to our old 2.7 D4,but if you drive them like you stole them,the 200 will use more.Off road it probably uses more as well.On black top driven normally very similar.

[Tombie]

Interesting on your part.

All the owners of 200s here reckon 16-17l/100km is a great return at 80-85km/h and 3500kg on the bum.

One owner tows at posted speeds and said that 22l/100km (110km/h) is good.

[scarry]

Interesting on your part.

All the owners of 200s here reckon 16-17l/100km is a great return at 80-85km/h and 3500kg on the bum.

One owner tows at posted speeds and said that 22l/100km (110km/h) is good.

Don’t tow so don’t really know,didn’t think we were talking about towing,but maybe we were,my bad[bighmmm]

[Homestar]

Interesting on your part.

All the owners of 200s here reckon 16-17l/100km is a great return at 80-85km/h and 3500kg on the bum.

One owner tows at posted speeds and said that 22l/100km (110km/h) is good.

My 101 towing the caravan does that but I’m only going 80… [emoji38][emoji56]

[Tombie]

Was speaking with someone with a Tesla X on the weekend.
The long range 600+km model.

They purchased it for that exact reason. Threw the kids in the back and headed East.

Hevac on, kids running iPads from the vehicle etc.
350 odd kilometres later they are sitting waiting for a tow truck - ran out of juice!

[scarry]

Was speaking with someone with a Tesla X on the weekend.
The long range 600+km model.

They purchased it for that exact reason. Threw the kids in the back and headed East.

Hevac on, kids running iPads from the vehicle etc.
350 odd kilometres later they are sitting waiting for a tow truck - ran out of juice!

A mate has one of those,its a 3 i think,he doesnt leave town,so all good.
Has a charging point at home.

Anyway,if the driver takes his/her hands off the wheel,it says to please put them back on the wheel.
After the third message,if the hands are not back on the steering wheel,it pulls over and parks itself.[bighmmm][biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

Was speaking with someone with a Tesla X on the weekend.
The long range 600+km model.

They purchased it for that exact reason. Threw the kids in the back and headed East.

Hevac on, kids running iPads from the vehicle etc.
350 odd kilometres later they are sitting waiting for a tow truck - ran out of juice!
[biggrin] I wonder if they run out of Petrol often Tombie? The amount of warnings EVs give you re range left is a bit over the top. I often let mine down to the last 30km but only if the high speed trip is under 200km from a full starting charge. It gives me the ****s from 60km range remaining. Our normal range Tesla which I do not drive much gets over 350km. Might be a bit more to that yarn then the ipads I think. Either way glad I did not fork out for a xrated tesla[bigwhistle]

[Tombie]

[biggrin] I wonder if they run out of Petrol often Tombie? The amount of warnings EVs give you re range left is a bit over the top. I often let mine down to the last 30km but only if the high speed trip is under 200km from a full starting charge. It gives me the ****s from 60km range remaining. Our normal range Tesla which I do not drive much gets over 350km. Might be a bit more to that yarn then the ipads I think. Either way glad I did not fork out for a xrated tesla[bigwhistle]

Context was hot day, everything running.
They got to a point where there were no chargers and had to continue while the range dropped drastically.

They certainly wouldn’t run out of petrol - they own OTR

[Homestar]

They certainly wouldn’t run out of petrol - they own OTR

That’s even more hilarious knowing that! [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38]

Are they looking at putting any chargers in at any of the outlets?

[NavyDiver]

I added another 500km to the clock. cost was $24 total. Disco if behaved is 10l per 100km so excluding maintenance at current $2.20ish per litre is $110++ not spent by this black duck.


Was having a chat re fires in lithuim over a nice family over a fire at cool Birthday party. A few burnt trucks, tractors and cars in the room was found over the last 50 years not recently happily. It was 1.3 degrees at midnight. I mean cool in several ways[biggrin]


An engineer in the mix sent me a story on EV fire risk.

Some reassuring parts if you have a battery perhaps. Kicking the window out to get out of the tesla on fire is not so cool[bigrolf]

Electric mobility is hot, but its lithium-ion batteries are burning (https://thenextweb.com/news/how-bad-is-the-problem-of-lithium-ion-battery-fires)
"While EV battery fires are concerning, they are far exceeded by that of ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles.Researchers at the EV Safe project (https://www.evfiresafe.com/) in Australia looked at global EV battery fires from 2010-2020. They found a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire."

[Homestar]

I added another 500km to the clock. cost was $24 total. Disco if behaved is 10l per 100km so excluding maintenance at current $2.20ish per litre is $110++ not spent by this black duck.


Was having a chat re fires in lithuim over a nice family over a fire at cool Birthday party. A few burnt trucks, tractors and cars in the room was found over the last 50 years not recently happily. It was 1.3 degrees at midnight. I mean cool in several ways[biggrin]


An engineer in the mix sent me a story on EV fire risk.

Some reassuring parts if you have a battery perhaps. Kicking the window out to get out of the tesla on fire is not so cool[bigrolf]

Electric mobility is hot, but its lithium-ion batteries are burning (https://thenextweb.com/news/how-bad-is-the-problem-of-lithium-ion-battery-fires)
"While EV battery fires are concerning, they are far exceeded by that of ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles.Researchers at the EV Safe project (https://www.evfiresafe.com/) in Australia looked at global EV battery fires from 2010-2020. They found a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire."


All well and good, but we need the other stats that make that number relevant.

- Based on that stat, what % of the total of roadgoing cars are EV's globally?
- What is the figure for global ICE fires?
- Based on the percentages of ICE v EV's - which one is higher?

Those figures may be in the doc sorry, but I haven't looked through all of it.

Not saying they aren't lower overall, or that EV's fire hysteria isn't a beat up at times but that stat on its own is pretty meaningless IMO.

[Homestar]

Ok, from a quick google, I could only find stats on US car fires. Based on 2020 data for cars on the road and car fires in the USA in 2020 they account for 0.062% - but that includes EV's and ICE vehicles.

EV's in the US totaled 308,000 in 2020 and I couldn't find specific data on EV fires in 2020, but based on what I can see, yes, EV's are far less of a fire risk that ICE vehicles. :)

Sorry for the previous post, I just like to have all the relevant data when a topic is discussed - I wasn't having a go at you personally.

Edit - just found this - basically all the data I wanted in one article. :) Study: Electric Vehicles Involved in Fewest Car Fires - Kelley Blue Book (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/)

Interestingly it's the Hybrids that are the most likely to go up in smoke.

[NavyDiver]

Ok, from a quick google, I could only find stats on US car fires. Based on 2020 data for cars on the road and car fires in the USA in 2020 they account for 0.062% - but that includes EV's and ICE vehicles.

EV's in the US totaled 308,000 in 2020 and I couldn't find specific data on EV fires in 2020, but based on what I can see, yes, EV's are far less of a fire risk that ICE vehicles. :)

Sorry for the previous post, I just like to have all the relevant data when a topic is discussed - I wasn't having a go at you personally.

Edit - just found this - basically all the data I wanted in one article. :) Study: Electric Vehicles Involved in Fewest Car Fires - Kelley Blue Book (https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/)

Interestingly it's the Hybrids that are the most likely to go up in smoke.

Not sure sorry. I do have a mild distrust of my EV battery especially with the WLTP range guide which are rubbish+ [biggrin] The car,bus and hover board fires with batteries or Geelong do highlight the risk very clearly IF they do catch fire.
NOT driving EV to Traralgon marathon this weekend[bawl][bawl][bawl] Meniscal tear- weak kneed woose I am [bighmmm] Deferred to next year
RACGP - Meniscal tear – presentation, diagnosis and management (https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2012/april/meniscal-tear)

[Homestar]

NOT driving EV to Traralgon marathon this weekend[bawl][bawl][bawl] Meniscal tear- weak kneed woose I am [bighmmm] Deferred to next year
RACGP - Meniscal tear – presentation, diagnosis and management (https://www.racgp.org.au/afp/2012/april/meniscal-tear)

Bugger - that's one I know all too well - still wearing a knee brace every day since a fall and having that diagnosed - didn't require surgery thankfully but has been a slow recovery. I'd love to say it's stopped me doing a Marathon, but those that know me would be laughing uncontrollably at that thought... Trying to drop some more Kg's to make life easier on my knees long term - I've shed more than 30Kg so far, but have another 20 to go.

[NavyDiver]

Bugger - that's one I know all too well - still wearing a knee brace every day since a fall and having that diagnosed - didn't require surgery thankfully but has been a slow recovery. I'd love to say it's stopped me doing a Marathon, but those that know me would be laughing uncontrollably at that thought... Trying to drop some more Kg's to make life easier on my knees long term - I've shed more than 30Kg so far, but have another 20 to go.

Great Effort. Keep on going is my mantra[biggrin] MRI is cool. It rocks my groin and tibia honestly. My Titanium did feel it[biggrin]. Physio booked and deferral till next year asked for.

On EV again so I am not a complete PITA. I get excited easily as noted by my MRI this arvo. Great Wall is prototyping a hydrogen EV[biggrin][biggrin]

The third biggest in China and claims it will be a luxury and almost certainly will be big as little point in a micro car[thumbsupbig] Will it be a 4wd? God I hope so. the yarn link (https://www.thedrive.com/news/great-wall-motors-is-launching-a-hydrogen-only-luxury-brand-report)

Appreciate hydrogen in not fuel station available yet!

https://www.thedrive.com/uploads/2022/05/27/gwm-tank-suv.jpg?auto=webp&optimize=high&quality=70&width=1920

[Homestar]

Toyotas Hydrogen fuel cell is pretty much ready to go in vehicles - they have also prototyped a hydrogen generator recently but it’s a bit before it’s time given the lack of infrastructure but that will change in the coming years.

[NavyDiver]

Toyotas Hydrogen fuel cell is pretty much ready to go in vehicles - they have also prototyped a hydrogen generator recently but it’s a bit before it’s time given the lack of infrastructure but that will change in the coming years.

Fairly sure Landrover will not be that far behind [bigwhistle]

[PhilipA]

This video summarises what GM are doing with their new Ultium battery.
If it all pans out thye should become a potent competitor to Tesla and be a big step towards EVs being a practical proposition.

General Motors INSANE NEW Ultium Battery SHOCKS The Entire Car Industry - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIQ4Qq7Xhuw)
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

This video summarises what GM are doing with their new Ultium battery.
If it all pans out thye should become a potent competitor to Tesla and be a big step towards EVs being a practical proposition.

General Motors INSANE NEW Ultium Battery SHOCKS The Entire Car Industry - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIQ4Qq7Xhuw)
Regards PhilipA

Not much info in the video apart from them pumping up their own tyres, but if they do what they say, then it could be very interesting. It's only been a matter of time before one of the global giants met then outpaced Tesla at this. Hopefully they are close to mass production and not just talking it up when it's in its infancy still. The video is after all made by GM - it could all be marketing pie in the sky to try and get investors to stuff some money in their coffers - I wouldn't trust GM as far as I could thrown them.

[NavyDiver]

Not much info in the video apart from them pumping up their own tyres, but if they do what they say, then it could be very interesting. It's only been a matter of time before one of the global giants met then outpaced Tesla at this. Hopefully they are close to mass production and not just talking it up when it's in its infancy still. The video is after all made by GM - it could all be marketing pie in the sky to try and get investors to stuff some money in their coffers - I wouldn't trust GM as far as I could thrown them.

"ALL-ELECTRIC LAND ROVERS FROM 2024 From 2024 you will be able to choose from the first of six new all-electric Land Rovers. This is a significant step in our vision to dramatically reduce pollution and achieve a truly sustainable future. LINK (https://www.landrover.com.au/electric/suv.html)

"

a HYBRID ev /FCEV for 2000km range would rock my boat[biggrin]

[Don 130]

Nissan Ariya world’s-first all-electric driving adventure from the magnetic North Pole to the South Pole.

All-electric Nissan Ariya to Embark on World First Expedition from the North Pole to the South Pole - Expedition Portal (https://expeditionportal.com/all-electric-nissan-ariya-to-embark-on-world-first-expedition-from-the-north-pole-to-the-south-pole/)

Don.

[3toes]

You have to be care as the marketing department and many experts routinely mix BEV and
Hybrid as electric

In the UK Hybrid are not to be sold after 2035 as the current studies show that in real world use they are more polluting than diesel. This being due to the small engines that end up doing most of the driving as the battery range is so small. They are though seen as a tool to make people comfortable with the concept of electric power

[vnx205]

I am a bit suspicious of those current studies of hybrids that show they are more polluting than a diesel.
Not all hybrids have a small engine.
The Camry for example has a 2.5 litre ICE.
Since it is an Atkinson cycle engine, it is about 30% more fuel efficient than an Otto cycle ICE.
That makes it less polluting than most cars with just a petrol engine.

[Homestar]

Yeah, I wouldn’t pay too much attention to those articles either - I’ve driven a Hybrid Camry for several weeks around a City with some country driving too clocking up more than 1000KM in it and averaged 4.8 litres per hundred - not sure how that is more polluting than a diesel but I’m all ears on the explanation.

[Tombie]

Fuel volume burned doesn’t directly equate to emissions out its bum. Sounds counter intuitive, however it’s how dirty those emissions are that’s counted.

According to a few articles, emissions of these hybrids can be 2.5-4 times higher than advertised.

And the overall emissions required for TLOV is higher than many are reported to be.

It really does seem a game of smoke and mirrors.

[Homestar]

Fuel volume burned doesn’t directly equate to emissions out its bum. Sounds counter intuitive, however it’s how dirty those emissions are that’s counted.

According to a few articles, emissions of these hybrids can be 2.5-4 times higher than advertised.

And the overall emissions required for TLOV is higher than many are reported to be.

It really does seem a game of smoke and mirrors.

Yeah - smoke and mirrors sound right - but by which side? I’d be interested in the comparison between a modern petrol burning engine and a modern diesel with adblue - I honestly don’t know which would come out on top overall.

[NavyDiver]

Top gear ran a toyota prius at 100% tagging a BMW ice. The BMW was pottering along at barely 40% power or so and used much less petrol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F04MXepYiBs


It did not in my thoughts say anything more than drive at 100% and you use more energy to me [biggrin]

Never wanted a hybrid as I hate the idea myself for my selfish reasons of course. I would take a FCEV (Hydrogen) with a Solid state big battery once they are ready for me. That hybrid would rock my boat once fueling points are more than one per state ![biggrin]


Took my Disco out for its monthly shake down last night. Oddly no regenerative braking meant I really had to watch my braking. The MG is not one pedal only yet its regenerative braking cuts the brake use by about 80% or so.

[JDNSW]

Yeah - smoke and mirrors sound right - but by which side? I’d be interested in the comparison between a modern petrol burning engine and a modern diesel with adblue - I honestly don’t know which would come out on top overall.

I suspect a lot of the confusion comes from what is considered "emissions". From a climate change point of view, for any internal combustion engine, almost all the carbon atoms in the fuel enter the atmosphere as carbon dioxide, whether we are talking about petrol or diesel. A larger proportion of the diesel is carbon than is the case for petrol, so for the same mass of fuel burnt, more carbon dioxide is emitted by a diesel. But the diesel will usually use less fuel than the petrol, everything else being equal.

The other type of emissions are those that are not carbon dioxide and water - these are unburnt or partly burnt fuel and oil and nitrogen oxides. In modern petrol and diesel engines these are very small, but vary much more between designs. The adblue is intended to deal with the nitrogen oxides, that tend to increase as combustion temperature is increased - which is what is needed to reduce unburnt and partly burnt fuel, as welll as to increase efficiency.

[vnx205]

Top gear ran a toyota prius at 100% tagging a BMW ice. The BMW was pottering along at barely 40% power or so and used much less petrol.
..... .... .... ...



Surprisingly, Clarkson didn't use that result to bash the Prius, as he often did.

He didn't accept that the result proved that a BMW is more economical than a Prius. He was at pains to make the point that how you drive is more important than what you drive.

The Prius is at its best in slow, stop/start driving in other words, normal city driving. The BMW in that situation would be thirsty.

Driving style makes a big difference. Anyone who drives a hybrid in the city by quickly accelerating away from the traffic lights and slamming on the brakes at the next intersection will not get good economy. Almost all the braking will be done by the hydraulic brakes. Very little of the kinetic energy will be recovered through the regenerative braking.

I believe that the NSW Western District Health Dept made the mistake of buying Priuses. Out there most trips were long highway drives with little or no chance to recover energy through regenerative braking. Just like the Top Gear test, the little ICE was working hard almost all the time. West of Dubbo must be one of the worst places in the world for a Prius.

Even Jeremy Clarkson acknowledged that you can't expect good economy from a Prius if you drive it the wrong way in the wrong situation.

[NavyDiver]

Surprisingly, Clarkson didn't use that result to bash the Prius, as he often did.

He didn't accept that the result proved that a BMW is more economical than a Prius. He was at pains to make the point that how you drive is more important than what you drive.

The Prius is at its best in slow, stop/start driving in other words, normal city driving. The BMW in that situation would be thirsty.

Driving style makes a big difference. Anyone who drives a hybrid in the city by quickly accelerating away from the traffic lights and slamming on the brakes at the next intersection will not get good economy. Almost all the braking will be done by the hydraulic brakes. Very little of the kinetic energy will be recovered through the regenerative braking.

I believe that the NSW Western District Health Dept made the mistake of buying Priuses. Out there most trips were long highway drives with little or no chance to recover energy through regenerative braking. Just like the Top Gear test, the little ICE was working hard almost all the time. West of Dubbo must be one of the worst places in the world for a Prius.

Even Jeremy Clarkson acknowledged that you can't expect good economy from a Prius if you drive it the wrong way in the wrong situation.

Not bashing Prius. I just see servicing a ICE engine as a Pain. Disco is due for time not distance again - Ouch

Noticed a grumpy non Tesla driver apparently upset with a Tesla using charge fox charger in Goulburn NSW. There are Tesla only chargers there. The Tesla driver is correct that Charge fox 350kWph charger is faster and cheaper than the Tesla only chargers others cannot use.

Odd mostly as not all of the charge points were occupied and note none of the Tesla only ones would be used as the are slower and cost more- Thanks Mr Musk [bigrolf] Noting I would be happy to use Tesla if they allowed me to pay[bigwhistle]

Tesla Goulburn is 120kWph 1/3 the Charge fox speed. Colac Vic at the moment has 250kWh Tesla and none for this black duck really :( That makes me visit RACV Torquay or via Ballarat racv chargers. The pain of having a new generation short asses range MG of course. Zip in the fast lane in Port Fairy or Warrnambool yet if excluding Tesla only site.

Note many new options are being built happily.

[PhilipA]

I believe that the NSW Western District Health Dept made the mistake of buying Priuses.

All of the NSW Government departments were instructed to buy Priuses about 15-20 years ago.

NSW Agriculture where I worked sent them all to far flung rural areas where resentful ag officers did all they could to break them.
.
I got a very cold reception when I suggested to the Director General that he should trade his Statesman for a Prius for around town Sydney trips.(LOL)
Regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

According to a few articles, emissions of these hybrids can be 2.5-4 times higher than advertised.

.

That's the case for quite a few diesels too ....

[Arapiles]

I believe that the NSW Western District Health Dept made the mistake of buying Priuses. Out there most trips were long highway drives with little or no chance to recover energy through regenerative braking. Just like the Top Gear test, the little ICE was working hard almost all the time. West of Dubbo must be one of the worst places in the world for a Prius.


Technically that's correct, but the Prius' current extra-urban economy is officially rated at 3.5 l/100km. In the real world I've used a Prius for a long round trip in Western Victoria and over 800km, at 100 - 110 kmh, it averaged 5l/100km: even without the hybrid aspect they're still very economical cars.

Best fuel economy I've had from a Prius was from a hire car in Japan, predominantly on a highway, where it used just 3 litres for the roughly 100km trip. We had to top it up before returning it to Hertz and the petrol station attendant thought it was hilarious.

[PhilipA]

This is a good summary of EV vs Hybrid vs ICE.
The Contradictions of Battery Operated Vehicles | Graham Conway | TEDxSanAntonio - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1E8SQde5rk)
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Not bashing Prius. I just see servicing a ICE engine as a Pain. Disco is due for time not distance again - Ouch

Noticed a grumpy non Tesla driver apparently upset with a Tesla using charge fox charger in Goulburn NSW. There are Tesla only chargers there. The Tesla driver is correct that Charge fox 350kWph charger is faster and cheaper than the Tesla only chargers others cannot use.

Odd mostly as not all of the charge points were occupied and note none of the Tesla only ones would be used as the are slower and cost more- Thanks Mr Musk [bigrolf] Noting I would be happy to use Tesla if they allowed me to pay[bigwhistle]

Tesla Goulburn is 120kWph 1/3 the Charge fox speed. Colac Vic at the moment has 250kWh Tesla and none for this black duck really :( That makes me visit RACV Torquay or via Ballarat racv chargers. The pain of having a new generation short asses range MG of course. Zip in the fast lane in Port Fairy or Warrnambool yet if excluding Tesla only site.

Note many new options are being built happily.

Yes but a necessary one for the foreseeable future. The Person buying SWMBO new car would have bought an EV but anything remotely suitable for the job was north of $80K which is around twice as much as the budget. He did have to cough up an extra $10K to get the Hybrid but that’s the best they could do.

Until battery prices come down Ev’s will continue to be a luxury purchase for those that can afford it.

The battery packs we just bought at work cost just north of $100K each - they were in the country and built last year. Any new orders are just shy of $150K each now as battery prices have skyrocketed in recent months and there’s a global shortage of lithium currently. This should change quite dramatically in around 18 months to 2 years as the big lithium mines here in Aus are just about ready to start producing - they’ve been a long time getting to the actual lithium due to its depth, but hopefully they’ll be flooding the market in cheap lithium in a year or so and we’ll start to see battery prices come down to affordable levels at some point.

By the Hydrogen will be starting to kick off a bit more as well so hopefully we’ll see both these techs in EV’s at everyday prices in the future.

[scarry]

Until battery prices come down Ev’s will continue to be a luxury purchase for those that can afford it.

Maybe they wont.

EVs and Gas Cars Won'&#39;'t Cost the Same Any Time Soon, Mercedes Says (https://www.thedrive.com/news/45061/evs-and-gas-cars-wont-cost-the-same-any-time-soon-mercedes-says)

[scarry]

This is interesting as well.

French car industry calls ban on combustion engine cars ‘industrial destruction’ – EURACTIV.com (https://www.euractiv.com/section/future-of-mobility/news/french-car-industry-calls-ban-on-combustion-engine-cars-industrial-destruction/)

[scarry]

Cummins Inc. Debuts 15-Liter Hydrogen Engine at ACT Expo | Cummins Inc. (https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/05/09/cummins-inc-debuts-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-act-expo)

[PhilipA]

I laughed and laughed during and after I watched this viseo on the actual state of EV sales in China.
For all of you who still believe China is a World Leader in EVs , watch this and weep.

(1) Brand new cars sit unclaimed on barren hills for years/massive number of scrapped vehicles in China - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKiITsxoP4Y)

Regards PhilipA

[superquag]

Another chuckle, or,,, 'We never thought of that !'

Google this up on youtube, Renewable Energy is The Scam We All Fell For . the author is 'Thoughty2'

Big surprise from around 9 minutes onward...

Enjoy

And don't forget the inconvenient Truth that China and India are building MORE coal fired plants.
We'll save the planet by shutting down the last of ours, and replace them with.... ?

[Don 130]

China car builder with battery swapping cars and swap stations

Chinese smart-battery swap stations can change EV batteries automatically - YouTube (https://youtu.be/1kZgG58zz8U)

Don.

[NavyDiver]

Poms seem to like their EVs
https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-60943322


"Only 800 new chargers are currently being installed every month" The target they have needs 2500 per month[tonguewink] we get a few per month DOH!

The BBC is either wrong or power price in the UK is much higher than here. It suggest ice fuel of 85 pounds is equivalent in a EV at 42ish pounds. Not sure of the Per kWh charge in the UK but it is much bigger difference I see here. Comparing fuel Km traveled in a smaller car than my Disco I mean as well.

POMs also have a energy price cap (https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/price-cap-increase-ps693-april)! Charge the whole neighborhood at my place if that was here [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[Homestar]

The price cap is the equivalent here of round $3,500 per year - I'd have a fit if I got anywhere near there!

Just doing some quick calcs - electricity is around 20p per KWh over there at the moment so the 40 quid should get you around 200KWH or at 30KWh per 100 miles around 660 miles. We could say that's around 1.5 tankfuls of petrol in a small car (which almost all of them have) which would be 135 quid so yeah, I don't think their maths stacks up on being half the price - more like 'under a third' which is about what you'd expect IMO.

[NavyDiver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7JyTLlqq9w



An Average Super Car slowed the EV down[biggrin][biggrin]


Edit "
Lucid Air Grand Touring Performance




Lucid Motors announced that with a time of 50.79 seconds, the [B]Lucid Air Grand Touring Performance was named the fastest production car in the Hillclimb Timed Shootout at the 2022 Goodwood Festival of Speed, where the new model made it first public appearance.


"


Not surprised really. Getting the Stig to drive it was cool [biggrin]

[4bee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7JyTLlqq9w



An Average Super Car slowed the EV down[biggrin][biggrin]


Edit "
Lucid Air Grand Touring Performance




Lucid Motors announced that with a time of 50.79 seconds, the [B]Lucid Air Grand Touring Performance was named the fastest production car in the Hillclimb Timed Shootout at the 2022 Goodwood Festival of Speed, where the new model made it first public appearance.


"


Not surprised really. Getting the Stig to drive it was cool [biggrin]


Would have been better if The Stig had an in helmet Mic.

[NavyDiver]

For a second I had hoped[tonguewink] Happily Solid state battery and Hydrogen will make a Discos replacement one day. The f150 lighting is not bound for Australia anyway. We get all the OLD tech dumped here first.



https://youtu.be/-e55Vued028

[NavyDiver]

More than a few public charge point install make charging difficult. Some make it impossible unless you break road rules to access them to charge. One example is at 165 Liebig St, Warrnambool VIC 3280. It is just beside a roundabout, has double lines preventing crossing the lines to access the charger. The charge position not really suitable to any car which has a charge point at the front or not right at the back.

[urlhttps://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x6acd4c54 ... AB6BAgNEAI (http://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x6acd4c54373bf819%3A0xa3e97bb49f08f996!3 m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D2Has K-Rp4Pxhm27slLtSIQ%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26yaw%3D78.0343%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D 100%26w%3D780%26h%3D262!5sev%20charge%20Liebig%20s treet%20Warrnambool%20-%20Google%20Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e2!2s2HasK-Rp4Pxhm27slLtSIQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiNnoiJ7d34AhUD8XMBHeaZD3oQ7ZgBKAB6BAgNE AI)[/url]


No standards make it a mess I think. It is Governments needing to jointly agree I think. This is not a kick at Warrnambool Councils or others helping by install Charge points before standards exist!https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-the-k ... sual-place (https://www.thedrive.com/news/why-the-kia-ev6-charging-port-is-in-an-unusual-place)

It is not just MG either. A Ford EV ute F150 Lightning charge point would be almost impossible at several places. Same for Rivian RT1.

Standards like CCS are helpful for everyone. Even Teslar is joining that party http://forums.aeva.asn.au/images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif No problem if the change it to have them all at the back side or front. Just the consistency to avoid foreseeable problems.

[Homestar]

Cause not known but a big whoops somewhere.

100 Vehicles Catch fire in Delhi’s Electric Vehicle Charging Station - India - Batteries News (https://batteriesnews.com/100-vehicles-catch-fire-delhis-electric-vehicle-charging-station-india/?fbclid=IwAR2v9K9ec8XoMBKJ8fO_Mj7ReSgKEPwH58CGfn3T oW5X63zq6QLkxFnnOA8)

[PhilipA]

Old e rickshaws have lead acid batteries. Don’t know about new erickshaws but probably lead acid also.

So probably not lithium related.

Regards PhilipA
Btw the reason I know about old e rickshaws is that they use them at the Taj Mahal to ferry passengers from the bus park. I was surprised to see tuk tuks with batteries in the back.

[Homestar]

I would have thought lead acid would be far less likely to cause a runaway fire that would set everything off - the odd one goes pop but they don't go troppo like lithium can.

Could have been in the charger or even the AC supply feeding the whole thing - which would be huge all on its own - I doubt the installation regs there would be quite as strict as here. [biggrin]

[350RRC]

....................... I doubt the installation regs there would be quite as strict as here. [biggrin]

No requirement for hi - viz you mean? [biggrin]

DL

[Homestar]

No requirement for hi - viz you mean? [biggrin]

DL

And safety sandles

[NavyDiver]

"Vehicles that run on batteries accounted for 5.6 percent (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/ev-sales-hit-new-record-in-q2-2022/) of new-car sales from April through June, still a small slice of the market but twice the share a year ago, according to Cox Automotive, an industry consulting firm. Overall, new-car sales declined 20 percent.Companies like Tesla, Ford Motor and Volkswagen could have delivered more electric cars if they had been able to build them faster. The carmakers struggled with shortages of semiconductors, which are even more essential to electric cars than to gasoline vehicles, while prices soared for lithium and other raw materials needed for batteries.

“The transformation is real,” said John Lawler, the chief financial officer of Ford, which sold 15,300 electric cars from April through June, a 140 percent increase from a year earlier. “Electric vehicle demand is well beyond what we can supply.”


"

I know 4 people trying to buy a EV. None have been able to get one unless waiting until 2023! I know supplies of Land cruiser and such are in a hole and well. The cut and paste above is from N.Y.T.

The ford comment is interesting. The would sell a lot more if they could make more. The trend is pretty Clear. Now if we can have a 1000 mile 4wd heavy tow capacity fast charge/fueling with charging or refilling for BEV or FCEV many more would be in the cue [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

I note that VW are launching the SEAT Cupra EV.
It seems a weird Decision considering SEAT market share of about zero.

regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

I note that VW are launching the SEAT Cupra EV.
It seems a weird Decision considering SEAT market share of about zero.

regards PhilipA

Be interesting to watch. Details of it on EV car database (https://ev-database.org/car/1516/CUPRA-Born-150-kW---58-kWh)

About 20k more than my cheapy and not really anything special I could see compared to the BYD or MG which seem about the same size? Born has max 130 kW max charge rate, it is clearly using current or what I think is old battery tech.

waiting waiting waiting- Landrover 2024 (http://JLR boss announces that British SUV brand will launch six new pure-electric vehicles in the next five years)[bighmmm]

[Homestar]

"Vehicles that run on batteries accounted for 5.6 percent (https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/ev-sales-hit-new-record-in-q2-2022/) of new-car sales from April through June, still a small slice of the market but twice the share a year ago, according to Cox Automotive, an industry consulting firm. Overall, new-car sales declined 20 percent.Companies like Tesla, Ford Motor and Volkswagen could have delivered more electric cars if they had been able to build them faster. The carmakers struggled with shortages of semiconductors, which are even more essential to electric cars than to gasoline vehicles, while prices soared for lithium and other raw materials needed for batteries.

“The transformation is real,” said John Lawler, the chief financial officer of Ford, which sold 15,300 electric cars from April through June, a 140 percent increase from a year earlier. “Electric vehicle demand is well beyond what we can supply.”


"

I know 4 people trying to buy a EV. None have been able to get one unless waiting until 2023! I know supplies of Land cruiser and such are in a hole and well. The cut and paste above is from N.Y.T.

The ford comment is interesting. The would sell a lot more if they could make more. The trend is pretty Clear. Now if we can have a 1000 mile 4wd heavy tow capacity fast charge/fueling with charging or refilling for BEV or FCEV many more would be in the cue [biggrin]

No surprises there - even non EV waiting times are nuts - I was recently quoted mid 2024 if I ordered a new Prado today and 'Sometime late 2024 - maybe' - for a new Fortuna. Hybrid Rav4 - forget it, late 2024 if you're lucky but they won't even give an approximate date - you pay you're money then go about your life for more than 2 years then they'll call you. Bonkers...

[PhilipA]

I had a laugh last night watching Queensland TV news that the Government is installing 48 new chargers.
In the intro they showed a Ford F-150 Lightning as an example of EVs that would benefit.

Regards PhilipA

[Samblers]

I'm interested in the practical implications of this discussion at this moment... are any of you currently considering a large car/ 4wd/ tourer purchase, and hesitating regarding an order/ fuel type?

It seems that we're at an uncertain juncture - tantalising progress for smaller EV's, thought still some way away from being offered viable options in the larger car category - particularly which suit Australian touring/ 4wd. Also at a time when a significant ($100K +) petrol/diesel purchase now (and not arriving for 18months) seems a bit of a gamble?

I'm sitting on the fence, with an ageing 110. Should've traded up a few year ago in hindsight, but considering either New Defender or Ineos Grenadier. Not a squeak from either LR or Ineos regarding future models - though I guess this is somewhat understandable, since any reveal will likely collapse their current order book...

New to this discussion, lots to catch up on

Sam

[350RRC]

I've been watching the live electricity market over the last 5 or so years.

The morning and evening peaks that put the real strain on have been increasing.

Sure there is increased electricity use at these times, is it down to the installation of splits?

Are there any figures for the number of installations of splits over the last 10 years?

I can't see how everyone getting home from work, turning on the heating or cooling, and then plugging an ev recharge load into the grid is not going to cause a bit of a problem.

DL

[davros]

The major push for EVs is to replace ICEVs for commuting. It seems to me that the use of personal vehicles for most commuting shows shortcomings in public transport. In most cities of any size, most commuting should be by public transport.

Correct. A good proposal I read of was a central car bay of autonomous vehicles which charge there. You just book one if you need to travel. No garages at houses means extra space! No driveways/more garden… etc…
And perhaps just working from homes anyway- maybe some kind of hub in walking distance?
Be interesting!
Much as I love outback driving I can do without city driving any day…

[JDNSW]

Autonomous vehicles, except in special situations, are likely to be a long, long, way in the future, throwing a bit of a spanner in the works for this sort of scenario.

[Homestar]

I've been watching the live electricity market over the last 5 or so years.

The morning and evening peaks that put the real strain on have been increasing.

Sure there is increased electricity use at these times, is it down to the installation of splits?

Are there any figures for the number of installations of splits over the last 10 years?

I can't see how everyone getting home from work, turning on the heating or cooling, and then plugging an ev recharge load into the grid is not going to cause a bit of a problem.

DL

It will only get worse due to the current push for everyone to move away from gas - not only the massive amount of splits that have been put in but also the switch to electric cooking which is ramping up. I’ll go an induction cooktop in the next year or so when I redo my bench tops in the kitchen then it will only be the instantaneous water heater I have on gas. When that dies it will be an electric booster solar system so within 5 years I’ll be off gas completely in the house.

[NavyDiver]

I'm interested in the practical implications of this discussion at this moment... are any of you currently considering a large car/ 4wd/ tourer purchase, and hesitating regarding an order/ fuel type?

It seems that we're at an uncertain juncture - tantalising progress for smaller EV's, thought still some way away from being offered viable options in the larger car category - particularly which suit Australian touring/ 4wd. Also at a time when a significant ($100K +) petrol/diesel purchase now (and not arriving for 18months) seems a bit of a gamble?

I'm sitting on the fence, with an ageing 110. Should've traded up a few year ago in hindsight, but considering either New Defender or Ineos Grenadier. Not a squeak from either LR or Ineos regarding future models - though I guess this is somewhat understandable, since any reveal will likely collapse their current order book...

New to this discussion, lots to catch up on

Sam

LR are in on it Sam " Land Rover embraces new Reimagine strategy"

They are smart I think as so much is changing very quickly "JAGUAR LAND ROVER LAUNCHES OPEN INNOVATION STRATEGY TO ACCELERATE ITS MODERN LUXURY VISION | Jaguar Media Newsroom (https://media.jaguar.com/news/2022/04/jaguar-land-rover-launches-open-innovation-strategy-accelerate-its-modern-luxury)"

"Our new global strategy will see us Reimagine our future:


A sustainability-rich reimagination of modern luxury, unique customer experiences, and positive societal impact
Reimagination of Jaguar as an all-electric luxury brand from 2025 to ‘realise its unique potential’
In the next five years, Land Rover will welcome six pure electric variants as it continues to be the world leader of luxury SUVs
All Jaguar and Land Rover nameplates to be available in pure electric form by end of the decade; first all-electric Land Rover model in 2024
Our aim is to achieve net zero carbon emissions across our supply chain, products and operations by 2039
Collaborations and knowledge-sharing with industry leaders, in particular from within the wider Tata Group will allow the company to explore potential synergies on clean energy, connected services, data and software development leadership

"


2035 Canberra is ten years behind Landrover??? Holding on to my Disco until then. That said I noticed the low full light is about to come on. I have not filled the tank since March - I am scared [biggrin] Recycling run, hunting and fishing trip overdue

[Samblers]

That's interesting NavyDiver - these sound like noble aims (and timescales) so it'll be great when we get to see actual propositions.

Still unclear wether these sorts of grand promises are having any current effect on people's mindsets regarding vehicle orders. I was surprised yesterday talking to a friend that he thought IC engines would still remain in sale/demand/use "throughout our lifetimes" (we are both in our 40's), whereas i'd been thinking that sentiment would be radically shifted within, say, 3-5 years... and potentially leaving recent purchasers of IC vehicles with expensively obsolete technology.

Perhaps the changeover wont be so sudden. In the forums I read, the (supposed) near-future arrival of alternative models hardly features in the discussions about which model people are considering buying. Clearly some people's minds are more settled than mine!

[101RRS]

Hmmm just got sent this video - a New Mercedes EV TV Commercial.

180029180029

[JDNSW]

Interesting question, not directly to do with EVs, but related.

If we see EVs take over on the roads, this has serious implications about the availability of fuel for other uses. Some of these uses include internal combustion engines that are expected to have a lifetime running into decades, but for which it is difficult to see an electric equivalent.

Some examples :- Emergency and backup generators. Firefighting pumps at rural houses and on rural properties. Water transfer pumps that are only required occasionally but are away from infrastructure. Portable grain augers. Cement mixers for use away from infrastructure. General purpose tractors on most farms that are decades old, but only do a few tens of hours a year.

Then there are machinery that is required to operate long hours away from infrastructure:- Fire engines for rural firefighting. Agricultural machinery that is required to operate 24hrs a day but only for a few weeks per year, for harvest, ploughing, etc. Earthmoving machinery.

[goingbush]

Interesting question, not directly to do with EVs, but related.

If we see EVs take over on the roads, this has serious implications about the availability of fuel for other uses. Some of these uses include internal combustion engines that are expected to have a lifetime running into decades, but for which it is difficult to see an electric equivalent.

Some examples :- Emergency and backup generators. Firefighting pumps at rural houses and on rural properties. Water transfer pumps that are only required occasionally but are away from infrastructure. Portable grain augers. Cement mixers for use away from infrastructure. General purpose tractors on most farms that are decades old, but only do a few tens of hours a year.

Then there are machinery that is required to operate long hours away from infrastructure:- Fire engines for rural firefighting. Agricultural machinery that is required to operate 24hrs a day but only for a few weeks per year, for harvest, ploughing, etc. Earthmoving machinery.

California has banned the sale of petrol powered garden and landscaping equipment, but you make a good point with generators , can't really have a battery powered generator can you [bigwhistle]

I'm sure you will be able to buy petrol and diesel for decades to come, When did they stop making Petrol/kero tractors , late 1930's ??? I remember still being able to buy Power kero from a bowser at a servo into the early 1980's .

People will still want to drive their vintage cars and so forth.

[goingbush]

Hmmm just got sent this video - a New Mercedes EV TV Commercial.

180029180029

that sketch is 6 years old here it is on youtube

9648 AA batteries would be 37kwh . A 50 pack of Duracell AA batteries is $45 , so 9648 of the suckers is going to be $8683.00 you'd probably get a bulk deal for say $6000 , thats very bloody cheap for 37kwh. I paid $11,000 for 28kwh of LiFePo4 bricks.


https://youtu.be/fLC3lryWrjQ

[BradC]

9648 AA batteries would be 37kwh . A 50 pack of Duracell AA batteries is $45 , so 9648 of the suckers is going to be $8683.00 you'd probably get a bulk deal for say $6000 , thats very bloody cheap for 37kwh. I paid $11,000 for 28kwh of LiFePo4 bricks.

Yeah but the Duracells can only be recharged about 3 times before the seals give out. That’s about 111kwh of storage. I suspect your bricks can do a bit better.

[Homestar]

Interesting question, not directly to do with EVs, but related.

If we see EVs take over on the roads, this has serious implications about the availability of fuel for other uses. Some of these uses include internal combustion engines that are expected to have a lifetime running into decades, but for which it is difficult to see an electric equivalent.

Some examples :- Emergency and backup generators. Firefighting pumps at rural houses and on rural properties. Water transfer pumps that are only required occasionally but are away from infrastructure. Portable grain augers. Cement mixers for use away from infrastructure. General purpose tractors on most farms that are decades old, but only do a few tens of hours a year.

Then there are machinery that is required to operate long hours away from infrastructure:- Fire engines for rural firefighting. Agricultural machinery that is required to operate 24hrs a day but only for a few weeks per year, for harvest, ploughing, etc. Earthmoving machinery.

The worlds first production hydrogen fuel cell generator has just gone on sale - while the tech is probably a good decade ahead of itself and there are other issues related to them which will slowly be overcome, I think this tech will be the way of the future.

Already hybrid generator systems are becoming very popular - we have quite a few in our fleet now and making more - these are averaging a fuel reduction of 80 to 90% in the applications they are aimed at where 24/7 power is required but the loads are low at times of the day - this allows the gen to only run at near full load where it’s much more efficient for just a few hours to charge up the batteries. With fuel prices as they are at the moment these systems have become cost neutral. Biggest issue now is actually being able to buy any or to buy components to make them - the global supply chain is still well and truly pooched in this regard.

But yes, petrol and diesel will still be around for decades to come - there’s no overnight solution to these applications.

[JDNSW]

California has banned the sale of petrol powered garden and landscaping equipment, but you make a good point with generators , can't really have a battery powered generator can you [bigwhistle]

I'm sure you will be able to buy petrol and diesel for decades to come, When did they stop making Petrol/kero tractors , late 1930's ??? I remember still being able to buy Power kero from a bowser at a servo into the early 1980's .

People will still want to drive their vintage cars and so forth.

1950s I think, maybe 1960s. I remember working in the 1960s diesel trucks were actually quite rare except for the very heaviest - the operations I was involved with in the 1960s used heavy trucks with drilling rigs mounted on them with the truck engine powering the rig - and all used petrol. The only diesel we had was the camp generator. When I got my first diesel Landrover in 1966, finding a service station that sold diesel was a bit like finding an EV charger today.

Just checked - Chamberlain stopped making petrol/kero tractors in the mid fifties, the Ferguson TE20 ceased production in 1956.

[Homestar]

A bit more on the Hydrogen generator - it uses basically the same fuel cell Toyota are about to release in their vehicles - development and testing ofthe gen is taking place only a few hundred metres from where I'm sitting now - just down at Toyota in Melbourne. You may need a LinkedIn Account to access it but if I find the info elsewhere I'll post it up as well.

Sign Up | LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/feed/hashtag/?keywords=geh2&highlightedUpdateUrns=urn%3Ali%3Aactivity%3A695609 8739996430336)

[Homestar]

This is good news - Hydrogen fuel stations to be built between Sydney and Melbourne under $20m plan | Hydrogen power | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/jul/18/hydrogen-fuel-stations-to-be-built-between-sydney-and-melbourne-under-20m-plan?utm_content=216506140&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin&hss_channel=lcp-10026)

[Homestar]

Sounds like more than 1 Ipace has gone up while charging - Jaguar I-Pace catches on fire again – is this another Bolt EV battery fire situation? - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/08/01/jaguar-i-pace-catches-fire-another-bolt-ev-battery-fire-situation/)

Funny how any EV fire gets a full page media report on it, but ICE fires that happen far more frequently - both in number and % of vehicles on the road - don't get a mention apart from maybe a 1 liner in the local rag.

[scarry]

Sounds like more than 1 Ipace has gone up while charging - Jaguar I-Pace catches on fire again – is this another Bolt EV battery fire situation? - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2022/08/01/jaguar-i-pace-catches-fire-another-bolt-ev-battery-fire-situation/)

Funny how any EV fire gets a full page media report on it, but ICE fires that happen far more frequently - both in number and % of vehicles on the road - don't get a mention apart from maybe a 1 liner in the local rag.

Seems JLR customer relations in the US are the usual,same as in Aus.[bighmmm]

Jaguar were beating their chests a while back saying all their vehicles will be electric by 2025.

[scarry]

So Ampol are refurbishing many of their service stations,and building new ones.

Each are going to have ONE,yes ONE EV charger.

I suppose ONE is better than NONE,but this seems a bit stupid,i thought EV charging was supposedly going to be something many will need in a year or two?

I wonder if the electrical infastructure is in place to fit more?

[101RRS]

So what is the driver going to do for the two hours it will take to recharge from the one charger - Ampol does not normally have road stops attached to their service stations where you can sit down and have a coffee and a meal while you wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for the car to recharge - let alone the waiting time that passes ans you wait your turn to charge.

[scarry]

So what is the driver going to do for the two hours it will take to recharge from the one charger - Ampol does not normally have road stops attached to their service stations where you can sit down and have a coffee and a meal while you wait and wait and wait and wait and wait for the car to recharge - let alone the waiting time that passes ans you wait your turn to charge.

Yes i have wondered as well.
No one i know is going to or has the time to sit around and wait,and wait and wait.

Blind Freddy can see the system just wont work.
Exchange change over batteries would be the way to go,that may sort of work,but the issue is every manufacturer will have a different battery,then models will be updated,and on the problems go.

If a manufacturer, such as Tesla as an example,had change over stations,for their vehicles batteries,i recon that sort of thing would take off,as it would increase the convenience,which is the main downfall of EV's for many.

A change over system would probably be an advantage to the larger manufacturers,the volume sellers of EV's,they could set them up for their vehicles,smaller manufacturers would probably fall away.

[johnp38]

I wouldn't want to swap out the battery I have been maintaining properly with home charging and have only had for a short time only to get a crappy lesser range worn out unit coz I got short of time on a long trip (if I was an ev owner)

I have well looked after bbq gas bottles, I get them re filled and keep fittings and bottles nice and clean, I have no interest in a cruddy bottle next to my nice barby when I cooking.

Old or new they do the job but that's just me.

And the setups are leaning towards the battery being the structural floor pan as well, so I think that is a manufacturers indication that swap n go is a future no go.

Technology will improve quickly enough I believe to alleviate the issues we are talking about well before there are enough evs' to make our current negative speculations an issue.

My little 2018 ICE Picanto will not need replacing for many years and my discovery will run on diesel for many more years yet. Remember folks ICE trucks are being sold right now that won't be dumped for E power next year will they?

[NavyDiver]

A mobile recharge for those who stuffed up is up an running in Japan I hear. Hydrogen fuel cell rather than battery for the charging.

Battery prices are going to be 50% by 2025 was another comment as was a current replacement cost of 6-20000 which is oddly about the quote for the replacement D3 engine[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Pretty sure replacement of the batteries on the Collins Class subs are part of their refurbishment/life extension plan.

NRMA debunking EV misinformation (https://www.mynrma.com.au/cars-and-driving/electric-vehicles/buying/ev-myths) I saw today had a bit more I think


Rate of change from 1 to 24 layers in Solid State is very quick for the company which paid for my car[biggrin]

"Solid-state battery (https://electrek.co/guides/solid-state-batteries/) manufacturer Quantumscape has released its second quarterly report for 2022, updating the public to its progress in scaling affordable, energy dense cells for future EVs. The company continues to expand the amount of layers possible in its solid-state cell technology, while simultaneously preparing for scaled assembly for a growing list of OEMs. Here’s the latest.
QuantumScape ($QS) (https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/QS/) is a battery technology company founded in 2010 with the goal of developing scalable, effective solid-state batteries that can (hopefully) reach cost parity with traditional lithium-ion cells.
Although it has been working for over a decade, the battery developer really started gaining momentum in 2020 when it announced it had reached a “major breakthrough” (https://electrek.co/2020/12/08/tesla-co-founder-jb-straubel-quantumscape-new-fast-charging-battery-major-breakthrough/) by utilizing a ceramic separator. This lead to the successful testing of single-layer prototype cells. After doubling the size of its initial pilot manufacturing line (https://electrek.co/2021/03/23/quantumscape-seeks-additional-funding-to-double-its-solid-state-battery-pilot-line/), Quantumscape revealed it had also developed 10-layer cells (https://electrek.co/2021/07/27/quantumscapes-q2-report-reveals-10-layer-solid-state-battery-plus-commercialization-timeline/), followed by a 16-layer prototype.
This past February, QuantumScape shared another industry first with a single-layer cell that completed 400 consecutive 15-minute fast-charge cycles (https://electrek.co/2022/02/02/quantumscape-achieves-solid-state-batteries-that-can-fast-charge-in-15-minutes-through-400-consecutive-cycles/), replenishing from 10% to 80% capacity while still retaining over 80% of its initial energy.
Now, Quantumscape has revealed a 24-layer cell as well as a slew of other updates."

NOT investment advice. I sold all of mine to pay for the MG.

IF solid state battery as good as predicted my pathetic 200km + a bit MG range could be 1000km or so. If the cost is ok and the fuel cell bit I am following works I think across Australia with out refueling may be possible before 2030.

Not a betting person. I do wonder if all those betting companies would take a bet on the topic? [biggrin]

[JDNSW]

A few "ifs" in that prediction. And in my view 2030 is wildly optimistic.

It will eventually happen, but this sort of prediction is remarkably similar to the predictions when I was at school seventy years ago that within twenty years we would all have flying cars, and would only be working ten hours a week.

[NavyDiver]

A few "ifs" in that prediction. And in my view 2030 is wildly optimistic.

It will eventually happen, but this sort of prediction is remarkably similar to the predictions when I was at school seventy years ago that within twenty years we would all have flying cars, and would only be working ten hours a week.

Perhaps. The factories being built now are rather a LOT bigger than they were. hype perhaps. Supply chains are being established which is hyped up by tom dick and harry who all want to be the ONE [biggrin]



Headlines and money flows keep the possibility verging on a probability I think

"GM and LG to build 3 US EV battery factories with a $2.5B DOE loan (https://electrek.co/2022/07/27/gm-lg-battery-factories/) Michelle Lewis (https://electrek.co/author/michellelewis/)
- Jul. 27th 2022 1:06 pm"


Panasonic to build $4B EV battery plant in KansasJaclyn Trop (https://techcrunch.com/author/jaclyn-trop/)@jaclyntrop (https://twitter.com/jaclyntrop) / 8:29 AM GMT+10•July 14, 2022




Tesla, EV Makers Stand to Get Billions for Factories From Senate Bill
Industry says new manufacturing requirements and income limits could jeopardize $7,500 tax credit for many buyers

I could be wrong of course.

[JDNSW]

With delivery on most new cars of any kind running into years, I think expecting a new, undeveloped technology, to be available for delivery, in Australia, at an affordable price, in less than eight years is wildly optimistic.

Not to mention the prospects of a major recession and possibility of a major war.

[NavyDiver]

With delivery on most new cars of any kind running into years, I think expecting a new, undeveloped technology, to be available for delivery, in Australia, at an affordable price, in less than eight years is wildly optimistic.

Not to mention the prospects of a major recession and possibility of a major war.

Oddly Pressure and grumpy politics is most likely why US DOE has reacted to secure supply chains. The battery wars are huge. I did not include a musk involvement which is US and China based.


According to Adamas Intelligence, three million new EVs were registered around the world in [B]2020, representing 134.5 gigawatt-hours’ worth of batteries. That’s a 40-percent increase over 2019, and the growth trend continues — in the first five months of 2021, the total amount of battery capacity deployed was greater than in all of 2018. Not only are more EVs being sold, but the battery capacity in each vehicle has increased.

A recent article in IEEE Spectrum (https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-top-10-ev-battery-makers) describes the companies that currently dominate the battery market, and explains some of the technical issues that could shape the race to ramp up production over the next few years.
As of the second half of 2020, six Asian companies supplied 87% of the batteries deployed in passenger EVs.
The biggest battery-builder was China’s Contemporary Amperex Technology (CATL), which supplies Tesla, the Volkswagen Group, Volvo, Stellantis, BMW, Honda and several Chinese automakers. [B]CATL grew by an astounding 3,400% from 2016 to 2020, and accounts for 26% of the global battery market. link to story (https://cleantechnica.com/2021/09/17/who-are-the-biggest-electrified-vehicle-battery-cell-producers/)

Australia doesn't figure in this yet despite a few twits early adopters The US news was all in the last 4 weeks and totals well over 6.5 billion 4USD.

EU has several billion in play as well. Still all minnows compared to CATL.

The comment that all new EVs have a Lot more batteries is an understatement plus.


Useable battery capacity of full electric vehiclesUseable battery capacity of full electric vehicles cheatsheet - EV Database (https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/useable-battery-capacity-electric-car)My car is way down the list yet far from the bottom. It is just over one year old now.

More than happy to see Landrover holding back until 2025ish as the capacity/cost then is likely to be ??????? [thumbsupbig]

As for history

"[B]2003 – Worldwide battery sales — a snapshot • Total world sales value $48 billion. • Sales value of small rechargeable batteries – $7.6 billion. • More than 110 million automotive lead acid batteries were manufactured for more than 650 million vehicles on the world’s roads. 81% of sales were to the replacement market. • Sales value of industrial batteries for traction and standby power applications – $14 billion. • 500,000 electric bicycles per year sold in China. • The HEV/EV battery market is expected to grow at an AAGR of more than 50% to nearly $250 million in 2008. • Total battery demand expected to exceed $60 billion by 2006 and $65 billion by 2008." All years in a short history of batterys (https://www.batteriesinternational.com/2016/09/21/the-road-less-travelled-a-short-history-of-battery-storage-from-1990-till-now/)


That prediction for 2008 was not missed. And the PRICES were huge at the time!

https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106315306-157772330676720191230_timeline_of_market_developme nt.png?v=1577723332&w=630&h=354

2024 might be the sweet spot? "Over the last ten years prices have fallen as production has reached economy of scale. They now cost around $156 per kilowatt-hour, according to BloombergNEF, which is an 85% decline from 2010′s $1,100 plus/kWh cost. And continued production and improving efficiencies are set to make prices drop below the $100/kWh price by 2024, Bloomberg NEF found, which is significant since that’s the industry consensus (https://www.edf.org/media/new-report-highlights-increased-availability-reduced-costs-electric-vehicles) for when electric vehicles will reach price parity with internal combustion engine vehicles."

The market decides price of course. Predicting costs is a bit fraught with discredited economists


The fuel cost prices are the opposite to battery costs. Worse perhaps is servicing costs are going through the roof. A nice gent I like suggested $800 per hour on service labour cost [B]plus parts[tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink] That was a year ago! Parts do not seem cheaper!

[Homestar]

Sorry - I just have one issue with your post ND - I don't believe that graph at all - that's just pie in the sky - Lithium Battery prices to end users are increasing currently although I do expect to see them drop in the next 18 months as new lithium mines come into their production phases.

Battery packs for EV's or anything else are still the biggest single cost and prices haven't gone anywhere for the end user - this is either due to demand or price gouging - probably both, but I do find it frustrating that these sort of graphs are pedaled out to 'prove' battery prices are falling.

We've spend over half a million on batteries since the start of the year and prices are only heading one way due to supply chain issues, demand and inflation - of the equipment we are buying, over 60% of the price is just in the batteries. We have found niche markets where we can make our gear cost neutral due to current high diesel prices, but anything over around 45KWH doesn't stack up financially at the moment as much as we'd love it to.

[goingbush]

Battery prices are falling , In 2017 I bought 28kwh of LiFePo4 , 45 x 200Ah prismatic cells. They cost $11,000 AU landed in Brisbane, I saw an offer for the same technology batteries earlier this year that worked out to $8000 for 28kwh Landed.

[NavyDiver]

Sorry - I just have one issue with your post ND - I don't believe that graph at all - that's just pie in the sky - Lithium Battery prices to end users are increasing currently although I do expect to see them drop in the next 18 months as new lithium mines come into their production phases.

Battery packs for EV's or anything else are still the biggest single cost and prices haven't gone anywhere for the end user - this is either due to demand or price gouging - probably both, but I do find it frustrating that these sort of graphs are pedaled out to 'prove' battery prices are falling.

We've spend over half a million on batteries since the start of the year and prices are only heading one way due to supply chain issues, demand and inflation - of the equipment we are buying, over 60% of the price is just in the batteries. We have found niche markets where we can make our gear cost neutral due to current high diesel prices, but anything over around 45KWH doesn't stack up financially at the moment as much as we'd love it to.

Fair opinion as many battery inputs are likely to be in tight supply spots. I suspect the massive production increases and significant competition between the huge factories coming on stream in EU, China, Korea, US and Japan will make prices fall myself but appreciate issues in supply chains can and will impact.

Oddly the hydrogen thread has multiple tonnes of battery grade graphite for every tonne of hydrogen. A cut and paste from a waffle I wrote

""Renascor’s market data suggests an average operating costs of ~US$2,000/t PSG for existing PSG market (100% China). Renascor’s gross operating cost of US$1,989/t PSG is favourable by comparison" psg is Purified Spherical Graphite

they also stated "China currently controls 100% of the market for Purified Spherical Graphite

All anode producers (including manufacturers in South Korea and Japan) are currently dependent on China for Purified Spherical Graphite."

Hazer "CDP is a 100-ton-per-annum low-emission hydrogen production" 1 to 3 I think so that is 400-ton-per-annum graphite production

CSIRO stated "The demonstration plant has a planned (operating) duration of around three years and would have the capacity to produce approximately 100 tonnes of hydrogen per annum and (reportedly) 380 tonnes of synthetic graphite per annum."

The sale price prediction is "Projected PSG sales price US$4,312/t""

"Graphite represents just under 50% of battery minerals in a lithium-ion battery. The spheronisation process decreases the surface area to allow more graphite into a smaller volume."

Lithium-ion battery are not just Lithium [thumbsupbig]

I am in a nuclear investment space as I type so excuse me if this is not totally logical. I did buy some solid state battery stock again. Its a long term thing as it is not yet making a cent from sales!

NOT Investment advice.

[Homestar]

Battery prices are falling , In 2017 I bought 28kwh of LiFePo4 , 45 x 200Ah prismatic cells. They cost $11,000 AU landed in Brisbane, I saw an offer for the same technology batteries earlier this year that worked out to $8000 for 28kwh Landed.

That sounds about right - We went from paying around $190 per Kwh earlier this year to $259 per Kwh yesterday when I ordered 100Kwh of cells.

For some other packaged systems with inbuilt BMS etc we use have also gone up around 30% in the last 6 months.

We bought some pre built 45Kwh units 3 months ago and went to order more - they’ve gone up over $25K in 3 months and lead times over a year.

Even at $200 per Kwh it’s hard to get a system to make economic sense when you put it up against diesel - but it has certainly helped that diesel is now over $2 per litre - Happy to see that level stay - it’s good for our battery and Hybrid power systems we hire. [emoji16]

[NavyDiver]

Excuse me if I added this before. I suspect Landrover will be in this soon as well


"we now have the first official confirmation that hydrogen-powered BMW's will become mass produced starting from 2025, and the iX5 Hydrogen might be among them. BMW’s Head of Sales Pieter Nota told Nikkei (https://asia.nikkei.com/Editor-s-Picks/Interview/BMW-fuel-cell-SUV-to-enter-mass-production-as-soon-as-2025-executive) the automaker will, alongside Toyota, introduce multiple FCEVs.

“(…) hydrogen fuel cell technology is particularly relevant for larger SUVs," Nota said.

Cars using hydrogen aren’t something groundbreaking. Toyota, BMW’s partner in making the iX5 Hydrogen a reality, was heavily invested in this sector back in 2010 (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-to-introduce-5-fchvs-in-germany-by-2011-17738.html). But the rise of Tesla's battery-powered vehicles and other strategies changed the company’s plans.

The collaboration between the Germans and the Japanese has first been seen with the all-new Toyota Supra. Even though it surprised many, BMW was content with sharing some of its technology and parts to get the hydrogen expertise from Toyota – the carmaker that has the Mirai FCEV as a second-generation unit that’s sold in a couple of markets like the UK.

BMW’s iX5 Hydrogen will demonstrate that filling up doesn’t take more than three to five minutes, and traveling long distances will be possible without compromising the standards customers are used to.

The Bavarians will continue investing in updating their portfolio, and battery-electric vehicles remain an important side of the brand’s business. The hydrogen push, however, reveals that major European carmakers are actively trying to provide an alternative to the already popular EVs.

Finally, someone will have to foot the incoming bill. The public and private sectors must work together if the “green” hydrogen dream is to become reality. As is the case with EVs in some markets, the charging infrastructure for FCEVs is basically nonexistent. There’s a lot of work to be done ahead." link (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/hydrogen-powered-bmws-co-developed-with-toyota-are-coming-in-2025-195791.html)

Watching Curpra closely The pricing is close to BYD and MG if this is correct

" Cupra Born EV given official Australian launch date April 19, 2022 (https://evcentral.com.au/cupra-born-ev-given-official-australian-launch-date/) EV Central team (https://evcentral.com.au/author/evcentral/)
The Cupra Born EV will launch in Australia in early 2023, after the new brand (https://evcentral.com.au/cupra-reveals-leon-and-formentor-plug-in-prices/)‘s first fully electric vehicle’s right-hand-drive production window was locked in for Q4 this year.
Built on the VW Group’s MEB platform (which underpins the VW ID family (https://evcentral.com.au/volkswagen-electric-car-family-to-grow-sub-30k-id-2-previewed/)), the Cupra Born (https://evcentral.com.au/cupra-born-lands-in-australia-ahead-of-late-2022-on-sale/) will be the last for four models to arrive for Australia’s newest brand, and the only all-electric offering for now.
According to the brand’s senior executives, the Born will marry “electrification and performance”, with at least one of the variants to be packing 170kW and rear wheel drive.
Those outputs, and the Born’s body shape, make it more of an electric hot hatch than the larger EVs that have launched of late — like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 (https://evcentral.com.au/more-affordable-hyundai-ioniq-5-models-coming-in-2022/) and Kia EV6 (https://evcentral.com.au/kia-ev6-wins-european-car-of-the-year-evs-dominate/) — while its 6.6sec sprint to 100km/h is about on-par with the Golf GTI, too.
Cupra says the idea is to put fun into the EV drive experience with the Born, which will focus on equal parts efficient and engagement.
Which is why an e-Boost system allows it to produce 20kW more power than the VW ID.3, for 170kW in total, though only in limited bursts. Torque peaks at 310Nm.
There are two battery options available, though Cupra is yet to confirm which will land in Australia — a 58kWh battery for about 420km of WLTP range and a 77kWh battery with about 540km of range.
Pricing is also yet to be confirmed, though the brand has doubled-down on its promise that the vehicle will come in at under $60k (https://evcentral.com.au/complete-guide-to-discounts-and-incentives-when-buying-an-ev-in-australia/), and even suggested that could include the hi-po models.
“The car is set to be the impulse for a new generation of Aussie car lovers and to prove that performance and electrification can be a perfect match,” says Wayne Griffiths, Cupra’s global chief.

"

[akelly]

yep I can get 20 CALB modules delivered in Brisbane for a shade under $15k right now. Batteries are getting cheaper. The supplier just contacted me to say the shipping cost just dropped too, about 30%.

[Homestar]

yep I can get 20 CALB modules delivered in Brisbane for a shade under $15k right now. Batteries are getting cheaper. The supplier just contacted me to say the shipping cost just dropped too, about 30%.

You have any spec sheets on these units by any chance? If you can email them to me I'd really appreciate it - I'm always on the lookout as we buy crap loads. :)

Thanks - Gav

[akelly]

You have any spec sheets on these units by any chance? If you can email them to me I'd really appreciate it - I'm always on the lookout as we buy crap loads. :)

Thanks - Gav

Here's the spec sheet. Any feedback on these modules from your experience? I'm thinking about using them in my Series 1 EV conversion with a Hyper9.

180363