EV general discussion

[Tins]

News to me:

EV drivers warned of number plate detail attracting $257 fine





Surprising they don't all make sure they have their little "virtue signal" prominently displayed. Along with the "Baby on Board" placard.

I guess they'll come up with a Diesel placard of shame soon. ☠️ perhaps. Only with the colours reversed.

[Saitch]

News to me:

EV drivers warned of number plate detail attracting $257 fine


EV drivers warned of number plate detail attracting $257 fine (yahoo.com) (https://au.news.yahoo.com/ev-drivers-warned-of-number-plate-detail-attracting-257-fine-074717354.html)

As electric vehicle uptake soars across the country, drivers are being reminded of their safety requirements.


A small but critical detail subtly inserted on the number plates of electric vehicles (https://au.news.yahoo.com/warning-over-hidden-electric-car-issue-harming-aussies-useless-as-an-investment-213412386.htmlhttps://au.news.yahoo.com/warning-over-hidden-electric-car-issue-harming-aussies-useless-as-an-investment-213412386.html) plays a crucial role should they be involved in an accident, and Aussie drivers caught without one could be slapped with a hefty fine. (https://au.news.yahoo.com/driver-hit-with-387-fine-for-using-a-phone-awarded-4000-dont-accept-that-075542823.html)
That's the messaging from authorities around the country who are this week reminding motorists of the skyrocketing death toll on our roads (https://au.news.yahoo.com/deadliest-six-months-australian-roads-215900553.html), urging Australians to remain vigilant and adhere to vehicle safety standards in a desperate bid to drive fatalities down. (https://au.news.yahoo.com/aussies-warned-over-costly-road-act-as-70000-drivers-caught-by-new-cameras-230100720.html)
Under these safety standards, all electric vehicles registered in Australia (https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/major-reason-stopping-electric-cars-taking-over-australia-right-now-pretty-far-behind-230136172.html) are required to sport an "EV label" which lets emergency crews know when a car is electric, should it be involved in an accident, allowing them to respond accordingly.

The warning tag is compulsory for all EVs on Aussie roads manufactured after January 1, 2019, including hybrid, plug-in hybrid, full electric and hydrogen-powered vehicles. Western Australia is the only state not to enforce the mandate, with all other jurisdictions handing down fines for those caught without a label.





It was only yesterday that I noticed a Rav4 Hybrid with an EV tag on its rear number plate. I'd never noticed one before this.

[NavyDiver]

Just stop for a minute. You appear to think I'm attacking. I'm just laying out facts.

https://i.redd.it/e2mmhjme8i391.png

it is a 3 second google search to verify these batteries are at least $20,000 to replace.

Google 18650 cells. your capacity even it doesn't completely die by 8 years, will probably be about 30% of the original capacity. How long will that 30% last ? Will that even get you to the local supermarket and back [bigwhistle]

Here is some real world data, from the cars themselves:

Tesla Vehicle Batteries Degrade Under 65% of Rated Range After Only Three Years (https://gizmodo.com.au/2024/06/tesla-vehicle-batteries-degrade-under-65-of-rated-range-after-only-three-years/)

A battery car is a throw away item. We are still running an old poogoe 407 here as the family car. my wife has done 250,000kms in it over the last 12 years. Its now 17years old. If we had purchased a battery car, that would be $40,000 -> $60,000 in batteries it would have needed ot continue to be a functional, usable car. It still will do over 1000kms from a tank while sipping fuel at about 7L/100. It will probably continue to do so for easily another decade with minimal upkeep.

See what I mean by electric cars just being nuts ? They are transport for the wealthy, and I'm betting 95% of them never purchase a 2nd electric car after being burnt by the first one (even if its just the horndous ... non existant resale of it.... in the scenario they are one of the few that can live iwth its limitations).

Please don't read this as anti-electric car. I reckon that are fascinating things. The problem is they are also just ridiculous, an environmental travesty due to their toxic battery and horrendously tiny life span. The only way you will get high milage out of an electric car ... is expensive battery replacements. or huge milage while the battery is very young ... eg Taxi work.

Didn't take offense. reflecting on my Disco service/Maintenace costs now gives me the shivers! I loved the first one honestly despite not looking at some of the costs.

I fully understand and agree with the limitations of current battery technology. I am keenly watching and waiting for proof of the Next Gen for towing and back to 4wding fun I really enjoyed. Make it solid. Proven and cheap will make me drive and fish with it :)

[prelude]

Surprising they don't all make sure they have their little "virtue signal" prominently displayed. Along with the "Baby on Board" placard.

I guess they'll come up with a Diesel placard of shame soon. ☠️ perhaps. Only with the colours reversed.

Oh boy, last time we used labels they went way overboard... not sure if this is a good idea ;)

[DoubleChevron]

Surprising they don't all make sure they have their little "virtue signal" prominently displayed. Along with the "Baby on Board" placard.

I guess they'll come up with a Diesel placard of shame soon. ☠️ perhaps. Only with the colours reversed.

I had never noticed this. Its extraordinarily important first res-ponders know they are dealing with a possible battery fire. An LPG tank is quite safe in the event of a vehicle fire and they are also labelled. An electric car is extraordinarily dangerous. I'm quite staggered they even allow such a large lithium battery to be carted around the roads due to there incredible fire risk.

electric cars are far less likely than ICE cars to burn. The thing is an ICE vehicle fire is just a fire .... anyone can handle that. An electric car is nothing to do with the car, its a battery fire .... "thermal runaway" .... It burns hot enough to melt concrete, cannot be put out, even if you push the car into the ocean it'll continue to burn under water. The smoke is extremely toxic, the water runoff is toxic and must be contained. You cannot put the fire out, it must be allowed to burn out. Just be thankful they are very rare! an electric car fire can (and does) destroy parking structures ... sinks cargo ships ....

seeya,
Shane L

[V8Ian]

It was only yesterday that I noticed a Rav4 Hybrid with an EV tag on its rear number plate. I'd never noticed one before this.
LPG and dual fuel vehicles have had little diamond stickers on the numberplates forever. I saw EV stickers on electric vehicles when they first became available. In Queensland and presumably elsewhere, it is the office, issuing the numberplates, responsibility to attach the sticker. Individuals are not allowed to attach anything to the face of a numberplate. The numberplates are and always remain the property of the state.

[350RRC]

LPG and dual fuel vehicles have had little diamond stickers on the numberplates forever. I saw EV stickers on electric vehicles when they first became available. In Queensland and presumably elsewhere, it is the office, issuing the numberplates, responsibility to attach the sticker. Individuals are not allowed to attach anything to the face of a numberplate. The numberplates are and always remain the property of the state.

In Vic I had to go out and search for some red diamonds for replacement original number plates.

Then off to the hardware store coz I'd run out of pop rivets.

cheers, DL

[Captain_Rightfoot]

To be fair, those early Japanese cars, Toyota KE10/11 Corollas, RT40 Coronas, MS45 Crowns, Datsun 1000/1200 etc didn't require repairs for ages after their purchase, other than collision ones. The Japanese "Big Three" ( Mitsubishi was represented by the Colt ) very quickly ramped up supply to the foreign to them markets. And Toyota's commitment to resolving engineering problems, particularly on LandCruisers on the Snowy, was legendary. When Daihatsu entered the small car fray with the 3 cyl Charade all parts were in the inventory prior to release. We got parts before the first car arrived. Other than service parts and panels, we never needed them.

Biggest issue with crashed EVs seems to be that nobody wants the things anywhere near their premises, or other vehicles, due to the astonishing risk of severe, catastrophic fires. In the UK it appears that only the Govt's desire to put a shining face on the things prevents them from becoming even more uninsurable than a Range Rover, for totally different reasons. Can't begin to imagine what the insurers there think of an all electric Rangie. Fire and theft has a whole new connotation.

The truth is out there .. maybe not in here so much. The reality is they probably aren't much different to other premium vehicles. The other reality is there aren't teslas bursting into flames in repair shops all across the country. Yes Lithium battery fires are a problem, but at this point it's cheap e-bikes and scooters that are torching houses.

I don't worry about charging the Tesla - but I won't even connect the battery in the Lotus without a fire extinguisher handy.


https://youtu.be/LRyGz2A5Xac'si=JkUry3U5m267_DlU

[NavyDiver]

Flying yesterday- IFLY[biggrin] Its indoor fun. Kids and cousins Christmas presents from 3 years ago finally put to use.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R19-G42zSQ

Drove the crew there and back and then chased a load of surf grommets all the way to Phillip Island. MG was looking a bit light on power with 60km to get home. Charging options are so much easier now.

The four chargefox high speed ones I found via Plugshare (https://www.plugshare.com/map/australia). It is integrated via my phone in the car. very easy to use now options are plentiful [biggrin]

The four chargefoxchargers are in a car park on top of a shopping centre. Plugges in I walked away down into then out of the shopping centre which was almost closed.

Walking back all the doors of shopping centre were locked[bigrolf] Walked up a car only ramp to get to my car was rather funny I thought[bigrolf] It is much easier than to first 50,000km with so many options now. It is Easier - just a bit DisJoiNted at times still [bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Just to put this in perspective - my 1986 110 is well over 700,000km, engine is untouched except for servicing and seals etc. Injectors overhauled about 100,000km ago, Only on the second set of front brake pads, fourth set of rear shoes.

Other repairs have included swivels, tie rod ends, two clutches, several sets of shocks, one wheel bearing, steering box, drive flanges, one halfaxle (worn spline), and numerous seals and electrical bits.

Might have been way cheaper to buy a battery. [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

High quality lithium batteries when used as the manufacturer recommends are safe. What we are seeing now is a flood of cheap Chinese batteries being used in all manner of devices improperly catching fire.

I have a bosch E-bike. Their batteries are expensive (around $1000) replacement. But they have temperature monitoring on each cell. When combined with the factory charger.. safe. It's up to 17,000k now and over 10 years old and still going great. I'm not sure how many cycles (groan) but lots. [thumbsupbig]

Tyson had acquired a second-hand electric scooter two weeks before his death and wanted to charge it on the night of the fire.
As the device did not come with a charger, he borrowed his friend’s stolen charger for a different model of e-scooter.


Tyson placed the e-scooter on charge and went to bed with his pregnant girlfriend, Jade, in a camper trailer parked at his grandmother’s south-east Queensland metropolitan home.
Twenty minutes later, two loud, firecracker-like bangs erupted.



https://archive.li/0HujR

Fatal e-scooter fire at Logan '''most likely''' caused by incompatible charger, Queensland coroner finds - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-04/qld-fatal-e-scooter-fire-likely-caused-by-incompatible-charger/104059914)

[DoubleChevron]

The truth is out there .. maybe not in here so much. The reality is they probably aren't much different to other premium vehicles. The other reality is there aren't teslas bursting into flames in repair shops all across the country. Yes Lithium battery fires are a problem, but at this point it's cheap e-bikes and scooters that are torching houses.

I don't worry about charging the Tesla - but I won't even connect the battery in the Lotus without a fire extinguisher handy.


https://youtu.be/LRyGz2A5Xac'si=JkUry3U5m267_DlU

electric car battery fires are very rare. statistically ICE vehicles are far more likely to burn. Even if its 1 in a million that torch themselves off.... is there 40million now in the wolrd? that is 40 fires every year that can sink container ships, destroy entire parking structure ... take out houses (hopefully not with the occupants in them). that NZ fire a few months back that they state was nothing to do with the car .... have videos showing the cars torching off in the garage and the rest of the house untouched. I cannot understand why this issue is ignored and hidden.

The only thing lithium batteries have in common is the burn ... little batteries burn, medium sized batteries burn, big batteries burn ... (don't google house battery recalls whatever you do), car batteries burn .... giant batteries hooked to the high voltage power grid burn .... its about the only thing that can be relied on.

seeya
Shane L.

[cripesamighty]

Going off insurance statistics, what is rarely mentioned in the debate is that quite a large proportion of ICE fires are actually arson...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

electric car battery fires are very rare. statistically ICE vehicles are far more likely to burn. Even if its 1 in a million that torch themselves off.... is there 40million now in the wolrd? that is 40 fires every year that can sink container ships, destroy entire parking structure ... take out houses (hopefully not with the occupants in them). that NZ fire a few months back that they state was nothing to do with the car .... have videos showing the cars torching off in the garage and the rest of the house untouched. I cannot understand why this issue is ignored and hidden.

The only thing lithium batteries have in common is the burn ... little batteries burn, medium sized batteries burn, big batteries burn ... (don't google house battery recalls whatever you do), car batteries burn .... giant batteries hooked to the high voltage power grid burn .... its about the only thing that can be relied on.

seeya
Shane L.
And the certainty of fuel burning is also a thing. It's a miracle that we don't have more ICE cars that catch fire. I have a Lotus.. of which there is maybe only 150 in the country. I'm aware of several of them have caught fire over the years, thinning the herd notably and providing for a number of post fire rebuilds. So probably greater than 1/50 had a fire event.

But.. as time goes on cars have generally gotten safer. It's probably reasonable to assume EV's will get better too, so this is probably the worst that it will be in this early stage.

As at up to the end of last year.
How common are these fires?Australian firm EV FireSafe (https://www.evfiresafe.com/) tracks passenger electric vehicle battery fires worldwide. From 2010 to June 2023, its database records only 393 (https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_01aa449ee5074086a55cb42aa7603f40.pdf) verified fires globally, out of some 30 million electric vehicles on the road (https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter4/transportation-sustainability-decarbonization/global-electric-vehicles-sales/#:%7E:text=Before%202010%2C%20electric%20vehicles% 20were,for%2014%25%20of%20global%20sales.).
Australia recorded only four (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ev-battery-fires-are-rare-but-on-australian-governments-agenda) electric vehicle battery fires over the same period. One was linked to arson. The other three vehicles were parked in structures that burned down and destroyed the vehicles. So it appears these fires didn’t start in the batteries.



Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher | Swinburne (https://www.swinburne.edu.au/news/2023/09/electric-vehicle-fires-are-very-rare-the-risk-for-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles-is-at-least-20-times-higher/)

[V8Ian]

For those bandying about figures of EV fires, look up the numbers for (CNG in particular) city buses, going down the barbecue route. Apologies for the pun. [biggrin]

[4bee]

Just stop for a minute. You appear to think I'm attacking. I'm just laying out facts.

https://i.redd.it/e2mmhjme8i391.png

it is a 3 second google search to verify these batteries are at least $20,000 to replace.

Google 18650 cells. your capacity even it doesn't completely die by 8 years, will probably be about 30% of the original capacity. How long will that 30% last ? Will that even get you to the local supermarket and back [bigwhistle]

Here is some real world data, from the cars themselves:

Tesla Vehicle Batteries Degrade Under 65% of Rated Range After Only Three Years (https://gizmodo.com.au/2024/06/tesla-vehicle-batteries-degrade-under-65-of-rated-range-after-only-three-years/)

A battery car is a throw away item. We are still running an old poogoe 407 here as the family car. my wife has done 250,000kms in it over the last 12 years. Its now 17years old. If we had purchased a battery car, that would be $40,000 -> $60,000 in batteries it would have needed ot continue to be a functional, usable car. It still will do over 1000kms from a tank while sipping fuel at about 7L/100. It will probably continue to do so for easily another decade with minimal upkeep.

See what I mean by electric cars just being nuts ? They are transport for the wealthy, and I'm betting 95% of them never purchase a 2nd electric car after being burnt by the first one (even if its just the horndous ... non existant resale of it.... in the scenario they are one of the few that can live iwth its limitations).

Please don't read this as anti-electric car. I reckon that are fascinating things. The problem is they are also just ridiculous, an environmental travesty due to their toxic battery and horrendously tiny life span. The only way you will get high milage out of an electric car ... is expensive battery replacements. or huge milage while the battery is very young ... eg Taxi work.

Well I guess if you tow it behind your ICE car it might?

[NavyDiver]

Well I guess if you tow it behind your ICE car it might?

I haven't needed a tow or fuel jerry since my Disco[biggrin] Blown engine and the New replacement Disco fuel gauge being so difent to the first one (RIP)

It was very very close with my first EV when almost NO charging options existed Des[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] So Close my old one went into limp mode a few km from Torquay option which didn't exist with my first few chemo express runs [bigrolf]

I did run out of fuel twice in my life. New Motor bike both times.[thumbsupbig]

[JDNSW]

In view of the worry about EV battery fires, it is interesting to look at the concern about petrol fires in the time motor vehicles were first appearing. I recall my father being horrified at the risk when houses with an attached garage first started to appear. And concerns about the risk of having the garage too close to the house appear in some of the early motoring books that I have.

[PhilipA]

Viewing the video above, I can only say that the bloke likes to live dangerously.
Storing those badly damaged Teslas next to each other is a recipe for disaster.
There are guidelines in UK ( which I couldn't find just now but recall seeing ) that damaged EVs should be separated by concrete blocks about 1 metre wide.
I guess the main time batteries go up is immediately after they are damaged as in the Tesla burning to the ground on the Hume Highway near Canberra so the bloke would not see those cars.
I recall a small rear end damaged Model Y being inspected by Rich Rebuilds a few years ago with a quote of USD31K from an approved repairer which was being written off. Now a model 3 with a rear end shunt would now be a write off in OZ seeing they are only worth about 30K (2019. 2020, 2021 short range) and insurance companies usually write off at 80% damage.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

There are guidelines in UK ( which I couldn't find just now but recall seeing ) that damaged EVs should be separated by concrete blocks about 1 metre wide.
I guess the main time batteries go up is immediately after they are damaged as in the Tesla burning to the ground on the Hume Highway near Canberra so the bloke would not see those cars.


Thing is, those EVs can go up days or weeks afterwards. That's why they have the storage requirements for damaged ones.

EVs can also fail and burn when charging, and it is in fact not uncommon for them to do so. Yes, I know that these days when everyone has a video camera in their pocket you tube vids have become ubiquitous, but where are all the vids of ICE cars burning down service stations or home garages? After all, there is considerable scope for propaganda there.

I once saw a Melbourne taxi burn, with a full tank of LPG. It was spectacular, to say the least. No iPhones then though. Fireies gave it a wide berth. But it burnt in a jet from the pressure relief valve, and ran out of fuel in around 15 minutes. Car was destroyed of course, but nothing else was damaged and once it burnt out there was no further danger. Can't say the same with EVs.

[Tins]

In view of the worry about EV battery fires, it is interesting to look at the concern about petrol fires in the time motor vehicles were first appearing. I recall my father being horrified at the risk when houses with an attached garage first started to appear. And concerns about the risk of having the garage too close to the house appear in some of the early motoring books that I have.

And yet nearly everyone kept containers of petrol in their garage or garden shed, and many still do. Doing so may contribute to a house fire, but undisturbed petrol containers don't often start fires. Perhaps undisturbed Li-Ion batteries don't either, but most of them are disturbed, as charging them disturbs them by definition. Gav ( Homestar ) recommends charging them away from structures on non flammable benches etc. Sound advice which I now follow. One house fire was enough for me. And that's just tool batteries. No way would I charge an EV on my property. let alone near the house. I have no issue with my ICE cars parked next to my front door.

When motor vehicles first appeared there were no standards or regulations for their manufacture. Anyone could, and often did, build one. Repairs were haphazard, modifications were common, and yet most deaths were from collision trauma and not from blowing the things up. Today, regulation has seen ICE vehicle fires following collision become almost unheard of.

[RANDLOVER]

Surprising they don't all make sure they have their little "virtue signal" prominently displayed. Along with the "Baby on Board" placard.

I guess they'll come up with a Diesel placard of shame soon. ☠️ perhaps. Only with the colours reversed.

Sometimes I think the baby is driving.

[Tins]

Sometimes I think the baby is driving.

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:Yep..

[spudfan]

And yet nearly everyone kept containers of petrol in their garage or garden shed, and many still do. Doing so may contribute to a house fire, but undisturbed petrol containers don't often start fires. Perhaps undisturbed Li-Ion batteries don't either, but most of them are disturbed, as charging them disturbs them by definition. Gav ( Homestar ) recommends charging them away from structures on non flammable benches etc. Sound advice which I now follow. One house fire was enough for me. And that's just tool batteries. No way would I charge an EV on my property. let alone near the house. I have no issue with my ICE cars parked next to my front door.

When motor vehicles first appeared there were no standards or regulations for their manufacture. Anyone could, and often did, build one. Repairs were haphazard, modifications were common, and yet most deaths were from collision trauma and not from blowing the things up. Today, regulation has seen ICE vehicle fires following collision become almost unheard of.

I keep diesel in the shed in a tank that holds about 1100 litres for the Land Rover. The lawn mower is petrol and I keep a few litres in a jerry can for that. I always fill the lawn mower out in the open.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

In view of the worry about EV battery fires, it is interesting to look at the concern about petrol fires in the time motor vehicles were first appearing. I recall my father being horrified at the risk when houses with an attached garage first started to appear. And concerns about the risk of having the garage too close to the house appear in some of the early motoring books that I have.

People have become completely desensitised to ICE vehicles going up in flames. It's like "MEh" oh well.

I'm riding my push bike along the local bike path yesterday "I can smell plastic burning". Turns out someone was fuelling a vehicle at home and it's gone up and torched four houses. And what does it get? A one liner at the top of the article.

There are no cries from MSM to ban the holding of fuel in homes, or filling vehicles. Or anything. The news is all about the houses burning and not about the cause. If this was an EV let alone a Tesla, you'd be able to read about this on news sites across the planet. But an ICE car torches a few buildings. "Meh". No cries for a national regulator? Nope

I say again.. I do not worry about charging the Tesla. (It's charging downstairs as we speak, suns out) But I won't even connect the battery to the Lotus without a fire extinguisher within a couple of metres.

A blaze that engulfed four homes in Brisbane's north was likely caused by a fuel spill by a resident trying to fill up a vehicle, according to the Queensland Fire Department (QFD).

A blaze that engulfed four homes in Brisbane's north was likely caused by a fuel spill by a resident trying to fill up a vehicle, according to the Queensland Fire Department (QFD).

Three homes lost, three people in hospital after fire engulfs Grange street in north Brisbane - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-06/qld-grange-house-fire/104067424)

190653

[Saitch]

People have become completely desensitised to ICE vehicles going up in flames. It's like "MEh" oh well.

I'm riding my push bike along the local bike path yesterday "I can smell plastic burning". Turns out someone was fuelling a vehicle at home and it's gone up and torched four houses. And what does it get? A one liner at the top of the article.

There are no cries from MSM to ban the holding of fuel in homes, or filling vehicles. Or anything. The news is all about the houses burning and not about the cause. If this was an EV let alone a Tesla, you'd be able to read about this on news sites across the planet. But an ICE car torches a few buildings. "Meh". No cries for a national regulator? Nope

I say again.. I do not worry about charging the Tesla. (It's charging downstairs as we speak, suns out) But I won't even connect the battery to the Lotus without a fire extinguisher within a couple of metres.

A blaze that engulfed four homes in Brisbane's north was likely caused by a fuel spill by a resident trying to fill up a vehicle, according to the Queensland Fire Department (QFD).

A blaze that engulfed four homes in Brisbane's north was likely caused by a fuel spill by a resident trying to fill up a vehicle, according to the Queensland Fire Department (QFD).

Three homes lost, three people in hospital after fire engulfs Grange street in north Brisbane - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-06/qld-grange-house-fire/104067424)

190653

Now Captain, I have generally seen educated and somewhat wise input from you, on this topic.
However, this is a wee bit of a soggy example, as the cause appears to be wholly and solely 'Human Error'.

[PhilipA]

I can recall many years ago (maybe 40) being witness to a conflagration at a fuel depot in Wangaratta .
A bloke was filling a probably 1000 l Tank on the back of a tray truck with petrol with a ciggy hanging out of his mouth and leaning over the large opening of the tank.
Well I know petrol is not supposed to be lit by a cigarette but boom and away it went. The hose on the pump melted , burning fuel everywhere and a probably 10,000l LPG tank nearby. It was about 15 Metres long so maybe much more.
The LPG tank was venting with the heat but didn't catch fire as the vents were far enough away from the fire .
Well the fire brigade had it out in about an hour and nobody killed although I think the idiot had burns.

Lets wonder how long it would take to put out a massive battery fire. I think there is a video above talking about one burning for at least a week. In the video, no fireman was game to enter the building AFAIR. The one in Victoria took about a week to go out AFAIR.

You cannot help stupid. So lets suppose that someone does something similar eg pouring water on the charge cable as recommended by some idiot on Facebook. the water shorts the battery and boom.
It's the idiots of the World that cause the Darwin Awards to be a thing.
Regards PhilipA

[V8Ian]

I think you're misremembering, Philip. Petrol will ignite at 5% atmospheric mix, which is about the level detectable by humans' noses. A naked flame or spark can certainly and most likely will ignite petrol in the scenario described by you. It would have been explosive, lasting only seconds. A secondary fire of surrounding combustible materials can occur, but the petrol fire would have been exhausted quickly, before the fire brigade arrived. It is unlikely the fellow filling the container would have survived.
The more likely scenario is that the 1,000 litre container was being filled with diesel. Diesel is combustible, not flammable. Although not impossible but highly unlikely, a cigarette will ignite diesel under these circumstances.
The most likely source of ignition being static electricity. Diesel is highly prone to generating static electricity, while being transferred, which is why it is mandatory to connect an earth strap to the container being filled.
Your fellow's casual attitude, clearly displayed by his smoking whilst undertaking the task, no doubt saw him fail to earth the vessel.
The combustible diesel burns far slower than petrol and quite conceivably would have been still burning when the fire brigade arrived. Taking into consideration, the time and location of the incident, it would have taken time to extinguish the fire.

[Saitch]

I think you're misremembering, Philip. Petrol will ignite at 5% atmospheric mix, which is about the level detectable by humans' noses. A naked flame or spark can certainly and most likely will ignite petrol in the scenario described by you. It would have been explosive, lasting only seconds. A secondary fire of surrounding combustible materials can occur, but the petrol fire would have been exhausted quickly, before the fire brigade arrived. It is unlikely the fellow filling the container would have survived.
The more likely scenario is that the 1,000 litre container was being filled with diesel. Diesel is combustible, not flammable. Although not impossible but highly unlikely, a cigarette will ignite diesel under these circumstances.
The most likely source of ignition being static electricity. Diesel is highly prone to generating static electricity, while being transferred, which is why it is mandatory to connect an earth strap to the container being filled.
Your fellow's casual attitude, clearly displayed by his smoking whilst undertaking the task, no doubt saw him fail to earth the vessel.
The combustible diesel burns far slower than petrol and quite conceivably would have been still burning when the fire brigade arrived. Taking into consideration, the time and location of the incident, it would have taken time to extinguish the fire.

WOW! [biggrin]

190654

[NavyDiver]

Birthday party drive and back 326km yesterday in 2 to several degrees higher[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Cold is supposed to hit EV range. I had slow charged the night before which clearly put the rebalancing thing in play as when 100% SOC it stayed as charging with a odd flicker or three of power for hours.

I had the heat on and frequent demister power as well, A large part of the drive was at 110kph. Passed many charging options I didn't use. My prior mg xs ev struggled to get 200km often. The newer current was usually in urgent need of a charge at 300km.

The remaining 6% charge last night was possibly 30 ok km more. Good, Still cannot tow my boat of course[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin].

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Birthday party drive and back 326km yesterday in 2 to several degrees higher[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Cold is supposed to hit EV range. I had slow charged the night before which clearly put the rebalancing thing in play as when 100% SOC it stayed as charging with a odd flicker or three of power for hours.

I had the heat on and frequent demister power as well, A large part of the drive was at 110kph. Passed many charging options I didn't use. My prior mg xs ev struggled to get 200km often. The newer current was usually in urgent need of a charge at 300km.

The remaining 6% charge last night was possibly 30 ok km more. Good, Still cannot tow my boat of course[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin].
I drove 300k to Linville and back for a bike ride the other day. Got back home with 25% [bigwhistle]

Took the kids up to go karting yesterday. 160k five adults in the rain. (Three people over 185cm tall, one of which was 201cm tall - try that in the defender). Back home with 60%. Was going to put it on charge last night but couldn't be bothered.

I take on board that there are some things I can't do with this car, or that might be un-necessarily difficult. But by golly, for a city dweller the use case for this car is surprisingly big all while being charged exclusively at home for cheap.

Further I reckon if I didn't really like going to the desert and to Fraser Is occasionally, I reckon I could manage with just an EV. I'd put a towbar on for bikes and the occasional dump run. And I would be saving a motza.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Now Captain, I have generally seen educated and somewhat wise input from you, on this topic.
However, this is a wee bit of a soggy example, as the cause appears to be wholly and solely 'Human Error'.
Ok .. and I take that on board.

But - I think the message I was trying for is EV's have transcended the realm of logical discussion. It has become a case of "outgroup psycology".

In this case refuelling at home can be classified as human error. Which is probably is. But that's a classic "ingroup" way of seeing it.

What if say a EV caught fire? What if the user said "The charger raised an error - but I unplugged it and plugged it in again to start charging and it burst into flames, burning down four houses". Would we all say "That's just user error, and nothing to worry about."? I really doubt it! I suspect the mainstream press would say "See.. those EV's are crazy dangerous and home charging should be banned!".

Personally I think most of the people in this thread would very much also lean to the latter.

As a bike rider I see in/outgroup thinking all the time. I'm sure we all see it but we just don't recognise it. "You cyclists don't pay rego and you break rules all the time". Hey.. "but what about people not stopping at stop signs.. registered motorist do that all the time too". In group/out group psycology would have the motorist defending the stop sign runner "Those stop signs are stupid.. it should be a give way". When it's not your group all of a sudden there is some wiggle room - it's easy to understand the problems and defend those of your group.

I'm sure we can all find examples of this. Aaah.. it was just a timingbelt that broke. These things happen....

Ingroups and Outgroups: How Social Identity Influences People – Effectiviology (https://effectiviology.com/ingroup-outgroup/)

We really need reasoned discussions about all this stuff. Unfortunately I'm not sure how to get that happening. That was quite a rant.

[V8Ian]

From my position, of not wanting or being able to afford a new car, I see most people polarized on EV. They're either the saviour of the planet, or spawn of the devil.
All vehicles, be they petrol, diesel, electric or hybrid, have a place to suit differing circumstances.
Depending on peoples' stance, the pros and cons are exaggerated and cherry picked.

[DoubleChevron]

I drove 300k to Linville and back for a bike ride the other day. Got back home with 25% [bigwhistle]

Took the kids up to go karting yesterday. 160k five adults in the rain. (Three people over 185cm tall, one of which was 201cm tall - try that in the defender). Back home with 60%. Was going to put it on charge last night but couldn't be bothered.

I take on board that there are some things I can't do with this car, or that might be un-necessarily difficult. But by golly, for a city dweller the use case for this car is surprisingly big all while being charged exclusively at home for cheap.

Further I reckon if I didn't really like going to the desert and to Fraser Is occasionally, I reckon I could manage with just an EV. I'd put a towbar on for bikes and the occasional dump run. And I would be saving a motza.

I'm keen to hear how you're going when its 8years old. There shouldn't really ever be an issue with a new lithium battery. It should be usable as functional transport for quite a few years.

[Tombie]

From my position, of not wanting or being able to afford a new car, I see most people polarized on EV. They're either the saviour of the planet, or spawn of the devil.
All vehicles, be they petrol, diesel, electric or hybrid, have a place to suit differing circumstances.
Depending on peoples' stance, the pros and cons are exaggerated and cherry picked.

Usage case is the only real way to look at an EV... If it suits usage, then go for it. (Costs, performance etc)

[Tins]

Usage case is the only real way to look at an EV...

Which would be fine if Governments, influenced by narrow interest lobby groups, would keep their sticky noses out of the decision making process. Governments of any stripe are not known for backing winners. Let the market decide, without interference.

[NavyDiver]

Which would be fine if Governments, influenced by narrow interest lobby groups, would keep their sticky noses out of the decision making process. Governments of any stripe are not known for backing winners. Let the market decide, without interference.
Wool? Mining? Services? GST???( Swearing[thumbsupbig]), Schools and education? Hospitals and Health Care ( Not with out issues and limitations of Course)

Stuff ups abound and over spends are almost assured [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Do it your way fits some of us.

PS I will not have my mg 4 to 8 years old. I really want to go fishing a LOT more. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Edit

Hmmm- sorry A new friend will probably demand it from me so I may have it for 10 years [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

[DoubleChevron]

Wool? Mining? Services? GST???( Swearing[thumbsupbig]), Schools and education? Hospitals and Health Care ( Not with out issues and limitations of Course)

Stuff ups abound and over spends are almost assured [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Do it your way fits some of us.

PS I will not have my mg 4 to 8 years old. I really want to go fishing a LOT more. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Edit

Hmmm- sorry A new friend will probably demand it from me so I may have it for 10 years [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

I'm just really keen to know how the batteries last in real world use as the car ages. We will know in about 5 years time :)

[NavyDiver]

I'm just really keen to know how the batteries last in real world use as the car ages. We will know in about 5 years time :)

The Seven year warranty makes that a mute question I think[biggrin] Latest testing data suggesting 1.3% degradation on the current tech of batteries makes the good possibility of moving some to home storage far more cheaply than buying the currently very over priced home battery tech I think. NOT KNOCKING those with home storage!!! I have had two flow batteries at work for about 10 years now which costed a lot and paid very well for themselves.

A smart sparky and the ever improving very good tech for charging hybrid solar/grid on and off grid will likely be on my to do list over the next year or three for my retirement pad closer to fishing and diving and FLAT ground[biggrin]. All my running and riding here is UP And feels like less DOWN [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Cannot see the US battery degradation study I heard about in a pod cast while running sorry. It was proposing the shift from car to home storage. I am a horrible stealer of good ideas I admit.

My Victron multi plus are amazing. They are 'Not' legal now so can only be used CHEAPLY behind grid on a legal on off grid hybrid system. Recycling works for me [thumbsupbig]

Victron has new legal ones I think. My prior Goodwe has some amazing new tech as well. I have a old new one in the garage as well

[V8Ian]

Mute or moot James? [wink11] Depends if you're a lover or hater, I suppose. [biggrin]
But what is warranted? That the batteries will perform as new, or will still have a range of....what....mere metres?

[spudfan]

My view is live and let live. If you want an electric car just buy one. My gripe is the way the internal combustion engine is being demonised and the Electric vehicle is being hailed as a saviour of the planet. There are financial incentives being given to buyers of electric vehicles being paid for by everyone else. My view is to put the electric vehicle on sale along side the internal combustion models and let the consumer decide. Forget the financial incentives skewing people towards the electric vehicle and let the customer decide on the merits of each vehicle as the did between petrol and diesel.

[spudfan]

Came across this headline "Dog accidentally starts house fire." Colorado Springs Fire Department respond to house fire where the owner's dog accidentally switched on the oven which had boxes resting on top.
....................................
So if you own an electric vehicle AND a dog you really living on the edge!

[Tins]

But what is warranted? That the batteries will perform as new, or will still have a range of....what....mere metres?

The range won't be covered. They don't get the advertised range fresh from the factory, and every charge cycle shrinks the "tank". Warranty will be for faulty manufacture, and will be very limited.

OTH, my D2 still holds exactly the same amount of diesel today as it did 24 years and 340,000ks ago, and despite its age and wear still beats 10l per 100 on the highway. Only the cost of fuel has changed, and that's largely political so I'll leave it alone.

[Tins]

Came across this headline "Dog accidentally starts house fire."

Silly me leapt to the conclusion that they had a BYD.

[Tins]

My view is live and let live. If you want an electric car just buy one. My gripe is the way the internal combustion engine is being demonised and the Electric vehicle is being hailed as a saviour of the planet. There are financial incentives being given to buyers of electric vehicles being paid for by everyone else. My view is to put the electric vehicle on sale along side the internal combustion models and let the consumer decide. Forget the financial incentives skewing people towards the electric vehicle and let the customer decide on the merits of each vehicle as the did between petrol and diesel.

That's my view as well. I'm on record here saying that I don't care what anyone else drives ( apart from Bugatti owners, obviously ). If a Tesla floats your boat have at it. But, you should not get other people's money for choosing one. That sucks, and indicates someone of no conscience.

[vnx205]

That's my view as well. I'm on record here saying that I don't care what anyone else drives ( apart from Bugatti owners, obviously ). If a Tesla floats your boat have at it. But, you should not get other people's money for choosing one. That sucks, and indicates someone of no conscience.

So were you upset about the people who bought Holdens and several other brands when the Australian Government subsidised them to the tune of $2.17 billion in the twelve years prior to 2013?

Holden reveals billions in subsidies - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-02/holden-reveals-billions-in-subsidies/4604558)

[PhilipA]

I remember the subsidy to Ford Australia ($140M?) was to develop a more fuel efficient engine in the 2l turbo for the Falcon.
Nobody bought them.
Sound familiar?
Regards PhilipA

[V8Ian]

So were you upset about the people who bought Holdens and several other brands when the Australian Government subsidised them to the tune of $2.17 billion in the twelve years prior to 2013?

Holden reveals billions in subsidies - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-02/holden-reveals-billions-in-subsidies/4604558)
Totally different situation. As I said earlier, people cherry pick and exaggerate to skew the argument in their favour.

[NavyDiver]

Totally different situation. As I said earlier, people cherry pick and exaggerate to skew the argument in their favour.
Subsidies, Tax incentives, Tariffs and taxes

Federal fight with other countries, State government often compete among ourselves for juicy investments Think Alcoa smelter in Port Land Vic?

Lynas Corp plant in Malysia was [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Some of that's coming home[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]



Economic debates are interesting as they pick the rulz at times to fit the objective. CSIRO and some anti clean green nuclear power[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

All the car manufacturing did leave oz when the gravy train left the station. Interesting perhaps for everyone is we all get cheaper cars now in inflation adjusted dollars or am in cherry picking.

[B]EU just put a temporary 4 month 38% tariff on tesla (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/4/eu-imposes-tariffs-of-up-to-38-on-chinese-electric-vehicles#:~:text=The%20European%20Union%20has%20im posed%20extra%20duties%20of,state%20subsidies%20an d%20will%20kick%20off%20on%20Friday.) (made in China) [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Other cars from China are taxed as well plus a 10% duty. is it 37.6 or 38 or 47.6 or 48% tariff[biggrin][biggrin]

Suspect German car makers protectionism??


BIG Money is being thrown around to get new manufacturing in Mexico to avoid the USA tariffs. Reminds you of the Japanese cars moving plants to the USA for the same reason???

The world of changes is a bit slower in big trucks happily?

[prelude]

Subsidies for employment opportunities and such are not the same as pushing quasi green agenda ;)

also, this:


My view is live and let live. If you want an electric car just buy one. My gripe is the way the internal combustion engine is being demonised and the Electric vehicle is being hailed as a saviour of the planet. There are financial incentives being given to buyers of electric vehicles being paid for by everyone else. My view is to put the electric vehicle on sale along side the internal combustion models and let the consumer decide. Forget the financial incentives skewing people towards the electric vehicle and let the customer decide on the merits of each vehicle as the did between petrol and diesel.

In addition, if we ARE to talk about the environment I feel that the whole CO2 thing should be dropped and a true across the board environmental impact score should be developed and if you put a price on that score it should be added to all the different products and then give people a choice. I think the BEV would be extremely expensive compared to a ICE all of a sudden.

Since we don't make such decisions (that is to say since others don't make those decisions for us) and there seems to be a collusion between the industry and government it is not strange that there are people who point to this as "big green" the same way that people have pointed to the whole petrochemical industry in the past as "big oil".

-P

[DoubleChevron]

The Seven year warranty makes that a mute question I think[biggrin]

this is my problem. What other car is basically a throw away item to be discarded once it's warranty runs out. We are basically making transport only viable for the wealthy. If the average age of cars in australia is 12years.... Does that mean 1/2 or the cars on the roads are well in excess of 12years old? So you are basically removing the ability to have functional, viable transport for 50% of people. But hey, who cares about the poor.




Latest testing data suggesting 1.3% degradation on the current tech of batteries makes the good possibility of moving some to home storage far more cheaply than buying the currently very over priced home battery tech I think. NOT KNOCKING those with home storage!!! I have had two flow batteries at work for about 10 years now which costed a lot and paid very well for themselves.



I wish I could stop people repeating this crazyness. So you want to take a leaky, ageing inredibly dangerous lithium battery ... remove all of its exotic monitors and controllers, remove its exotic cooling systems and sensors ... and stick it on your house wall ... where your family sleeps. I for one can't see a single issue with that [bigrolf][bighmmm]:firedevil::firedevil::firedevil: This is the sort of utter stupidity that gets repeated by electric car zealots :) I would be hoping land rover owners would have more common sense that to follow lunacy if its screamed at them in the media.





A smart sparky and the ever improving very good tech for charging hybrid solar/grid on and off grid will likely be on my to do list over the next year or three for my retirement pad closer to fishing and diving and FLAT ground[biggrin]. All my running and riding here is UP And feels like less DOWN [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]



Its very expensive though. The battery tech isn't there in my opinion. You realise these house batteries are burning and being recalled even sold brand new as house batteries :Thump::Thump:




Cannot see the US battery degradation study I heard about in a pod cast while running sorry. It was proposing the shift from car to home storage. I am a horrible stealer of good ideas I admit.


How long do you get from any other litium battery you have ever owned. laptops, phones, ipads, power tools etc.... I would expect this to be similar to lithium house batteries and lithium car batteries. they all use the same battery cells. I know, "but they are magical different chemistries" in the identical battery cells when used in electric cars. Ok, think lead acid battery technology. We have been using lead acid as car start batteries from over 100years. there is many different chemicals and design .... what is the only thing they all have in common?? Yeah a service life of 12months -> 5 years (at a big stretch, capacity is way down). Maybe they will also last 20years if we fit them to an electric car and blow some pixie dust over them :)



My Victron multi plus are amazing. They are 'Not' legal now so can only be used CHEAPLY behind grid on a legal on off grid hybrid system. Recycling works for me [thumbsupbig]

Victron has new legal ones I think. My prior Goodwe has some amazing new tech as well. I have a old new one in the garage as well

off grid is interesting. But like owning an electric car, comes with huge costs and drawbacks. How would I run a fridge ... a welder, a compressor..... a cloths drier ..... you know, basically live without a dirty big diesel generator sitting there ready to fire up :) How do I heat my house in ballarat? wood heating is after all terrible for the environment (and I have asthmatics in the house).

[NavyDiver]

this is my problem. What other car is basically a throw away item to be discarded once it's warranty runs out. We are basically making transport only viable for the wealthy. If the average age of cars in australia is 12years.... Does that mean 1/2 or the cars on the roads are well in excess of 12years old? So you are basically removing the ability to have functional, viable transport for 50% of people. But hey, who cares about the poor.




I wish I could stop people repeating this crazyness. So you want to take a leaky, ageing inredibly dangerous lithium battery ... remove all of its exotic monitors and controllers, remove its exotic cooling systems and sensors ... and stick it on your house wall ... where your family sleeps. I for one can't see a single issue with that [bigrolf][bighmmm]:firedevil::firedevil::firedevil: This is the sort of utter stupidity that gets repeated by electric car zealots :) I would be hoping land rover owners would have more common sense that to follow lunacy if its screamed at them in the media.




Its very expensive though. The battery tech isn't there in my opinion. You realise these house batteries are burning and being recalled even sold brand new as house batteries :Thump::Thump:



How long do you get from any other litium battery you have ever owned. laptops, phones, ipads, power tools etc.... I would expect this to be similar to lithium house batteries and lithium car batteries. they all use the same battery cells. I know, "but they are magical different chemistries" in the identical battery cells when used in electric cars. Ok, think lead acid battery technology. We have been using lead acid as car start batteries from over 100years. there is many different chemicals and design .... what is the only thing they all have in common?? Yeah a service life of 12months -> 5 years (at a big stretch, capacity is way down). Maybe they will also last 20years if we fit them to an electric car and blow some pixie dust over them :)



off grid is interesting. But like owning an electric car, comes with huge costs and drawbacks. How would I run a fridge ... a welder, a compressor..... a cloths drier ..... you know, basically live without a dirty big diesel generator sitting there ready to fire up :) How do I heat my house in ballarat? wood heating is after all terrible for the environment (and I have asthmatics in the house).


Dr Karl has some interesting thoughts on Wood heaters and Sydney Emergency departments!

Laptop is 10 years old[thumbsupbig]
Battery only last 2 hours now[bighmmm]

Used some battery drill ones which may be older?

Not suggesting all batteries make it to 10! It would be a lie to suggest all older cars will last that long?

Appreciate many of us keep our Landrovers going for decades and longer [thumbsupbig] Personally that cost me a new engine and a new gear box ontop of normal frequent maintenance.

Checking wreaking sites may find a few broken Landrovers which are younger?? Off to qld next week for a mate who joined the Navy with me who died far to young in my thoughts. Some things break to early sadly.

Taking my 1942 jungle carbine 303 to a museum today and one of my favorite ships is a Museum in Sydney now.

Some things go the distance happily.

re "How would I run a fridge ... a welder, a compressor..... a cloths drier ..... you know, basically live without a dirty big diesel generator sitting there ready to fire up " My Solar/Victron/Flow batteries U.P.S. at my former work could run that I think. Not saying you should and that 10 year old system is a bit long in the tooth as well now [thumbsupbig]

PS Sorry if I raised blood pressure. Your thought and own wishes are valid.

PPS Ballarat was fun on Saturday. My Dads in Nazareth house beside Lake Wendouree's six-kilometre Steve Moneghetti running and walking track [B]Swearing alert for this one[thumbsupbig]

[DoubleChevron]

Dr Karl has some interesting thoughts on Wood heaters and Sydney Emergency departments!

Laptop is 10 years old[thumbsupbig]
Battery only last 2 hours now[bighmmm]

Used some battery drill ones which may be older?

Not suggesting all batteries make it to 10! It would be a lie to suggest all older cars will last that long?

Appreciate many of us keep our Landrovers going for decades and longer [thumbsupbig] Personally that cost me a new engine and a new gear box ontop of normal frequent maintenance.

Checking wreaking sites may find a few broken Landrovers which are younger?? Off to qld next week for a mate who joined the Navy with me who died far to young in my thoughts. Some things break to early sadly.

Taking my 1942 jungle carbine 303 to a museum today and one of my favorite ships is a Museum in Sydney now.

Some things go the distance happily.

re "How would I run a fridge ... a welder, a compressor..... a cloths drier ..... you know, basically live without a dirty big diesel generator sitting there ready to fire up " My Solar/Victron/Flow batteries U.P.S. at my former work could run that I think. Not saying you should and that 10 year old system is a bit long in the tooth as well now [thumbsupbig]

PS Sorry if I raised blood pressure. Your thought and own wishes are valid.

PPS Ballarat was fun on Saturday. My Dads in Nazareth house beside Lake Wendouree's six-kilometre Steve Moneghetti running and walking track [B]Swearing alert for this one[thumbsupbig]

My problem usually it, people that I thought were intelligent and hearing this lunacy being endlessly screamed at us in the media (and by politicians) and actually believe it ... not only that, they repeat it like gospel :o

I'm actually pretty impressed if you have a workng laptop battery of any capacity at 10years. I work in IT .... have had dozens of laptops, our company would have thousands of them on the books at any one time. The oldest usable laptop battery I have (that isn't dead) would be maybe 8years old at the moment...... The 8 minutes I get from that battery is quite exciting.

Batteries degrade over time. I have no idea why electric car zealots seem to think none of this will happen with electric cars.

[DoubleChevron]

duplicate post

[prelude]

I bought an intel macbook back in late 2019 when they announced the switch to ARM. I got burned in the last switch so I wanted to get ahead of that. Of course the chinese flu in 2020 threw a spanner in the works in regards to the usage of said macbook, I used my mac pro mainly, so it has been very lightly used since. Now at (almost) 5 years old the battery reports 91% health with -drumroll- 186 cycles.

Let's put that into perspective. The laptop has been on power most of the time I used it, I use a tool that sets the firmware such that it does not charge past 80% to keep the lithium as happy as possible, I hardly ever discharge it beyond 20% and STILL I lost almost 10% battery "health", which I will translate to capacity for the sake of this argument with only 200 cycles.

Your mileage, litterally, may vary but I don't see how BEV batteries can perform a lot better than that.

-P

[Tins]

So were you upset about the people who bought Holdens and several other brands when the Australian Government subsidised them to the tune of $2.17 billion in the twelve years prior to 2013?

Holden reveals billions in subsidies - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-02/holden-reveals-billions-in-subsidies/4604558)

Classic deflection tactic. Well done.

Those subsidies were to keep manufacturing jobs viable in Australia, and no, I never said I was happy with that. I also wasn't happy with the bailout of Kodak.

Choose the words in your own mouth carefully before you put them into mine.

[DoubleChevron]

I bought an intel macbook back in late 2019 when they announced the switch to ARM. I got burned in the last switch so I wanted to get ahead of that. Of course the chinese flu in 2020 threw a spanner in the works in regards to the usage of said macbook, I used my mac pro mainly, so it has been very lightly used since. Now at (almost) 5 years old the battery reports 91% health with -drumroll- 186 cycles.

Let's put that into perspective. The laptop has been on power most of the time I used it, I use a tool that sets the firmware such that it does not charge past 80% to keep the lithium as happy as possible, I hardly ever discharge it beyond 20% and STILL I lost almost 10% battery "health", which I will translate to capacity for the sake of this argument with only 200 cycles.

Your mileage, litterally, may vary but I don't see how BEV batteries can perform a lot better than that.

-P

that's pretty good. batteries degrade, you have slowed it quite a bit. Its not a bad thing, its just reality. Look at the power you get from a remarkably small battery for many years ( at least 5 years usually). The issue i have with cars, is they need to last decades .... not years without massive maintenance costs. And a battery is a maintenance cost the is absolutely ludicrous.

I have the same issue with the stupid green power. A power station should have a life of decades ... easily 50years. Not those ridiculous intermittent power windmills and solar panels though.

[vnx205]

Classic deflection tactic. Well done.

Those subsidies were to keep manufacturing jobs viable in Australia, and no, I never said I was happy with that. I also wasn't happy with the bailout of Kodak.

Choose the words in your own mouth carefully before you put them into mine.

The part I have italicised answers my question. Thank you.

The rest is quite unnecessary.

Don't assume that everyone has an agenda. Some of us are just seeking clarification.

EDIT Bold, not italics because all the quote is automatically italics.

[NavyDiver]

Almost new BMW car on fire as I drove past today. Petrol and engine fire. Not a EV!


Wondering how to check your laptop battery since we have been chatting about it?

Try CMD line with powercfg /batteryreport /output "C:\battery-report.html"
From Windows 10 Battery Report: What It Is and How to Use It (lifewire.com) (https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-generate-windows-10-battery-report-4587396)


I am doing a very slow balancing Charge at the moment The term 'battery' in EV terms is really a mass of battery cells. While it is not always clear. You can replace individual cell if they are damaged.


A Kia forum has this interesting snippet on the topic "Battery replacements for the first generation Kia Soul EVs are being done with second generation cells. There is about a 10% increase in energy capacity. Replacement packs have the same number of cells, in the same layout. Same physical size."

Understanding batteries is a key. Video on my old cars battery pack The BMW battery manufacturing operation auto played after the MG XS one for me.

The Automation in both is interesting itself.


MG Electric Car Batteries – How Are They Built? (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knmqqB35yAQ&t=2s)

I think the waiting for Solid state cells which should be here later this year rather than hoping I can have them in a current car would be smarter of course. What price they are is the main question of course[biggrin]

How old are our cars from ABS data suggested 10.6 years old unless your in Tassie where it was 13 years old or ACT with sub 10. Average age

Average age of vehicles across Australia increased to 10.6 years.
Tasmanian vehicles were the the oldest at 13.3 years.
The Australian Capital Territory had the youngest fleet with an average age of 9.5 years.







Motor Vehicle Census, Australia, 31 Jan 2021 | Australian Bureau of Statistics (abs.gov.au) (https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/industry/tourism-and-transport/motor-vehicle-census-australia/latest-release#average-age)

As previously mentioned I was very happy in my 2004 Disco and know averages are almost never the real number :)

[Saitch]

My view is live and let live. If you want an electric car just buy one. My gripe is the way the internal combustion engine is being demonised and the Electric vehicle is being hailed as a saviour of the planet. There are financial incentives being given to buyers of electric vehicles being paid for by everyone else. My view is to put the electric vehicle on sale along side the internal combustion models and let the consumer decide. Forget the financial incentives skewing people towards the electric vehicle and let the customer decide on the merits of each vehicle as the did between petrol and diesel.

Even if this report blown out of proportion by 50%, the fact is these wind farms are so wrong.

I trust this isn't found to be 'Off Topic'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzLXWUUYBwU

[prelude]

I personally do wonder (genuinely) what the "proper" energy density for a battery should be. I do know that lithium certainly is not it compared to any liquid. In fact, I wonder what the best solution to EV would be anyway. Hydrogen is pretty much hated by now I think and experiments regarding those vehicles seem to be drying up.

The "EV" can be powered by anything, even petrol or diesel :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHhf223jGIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seHWJMKwOQQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qu-BDixGYY

I think most people gripe with the "EV" at this point is, apart from it being pushed in all sorts of disenguine ways, is the battery part or BEV in short. I kind of doubt that battery technology will be coming down the hill as fast as most people would like it to? Perhaps due to the significant importance they will speed things up (and cut corners here and there?) but normally from lab to production takes quite a while...

The new batteries are an increase in density but they still do not come close to any liquid form of energy.

-P

[spudfan]

Defender 110 (MY 22) catches fire. On Defender2. No details on model. DEFENDER2.NET - Log In (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic92717.html)

[DoubleChevron]

Defender 110 (MY 22) catches fire. On Defender2. No details on model. DEFENDER2.NET - Log In (https://www.defender2.net/forum/topic92717.html)

Was it an EV defender? because that is no lithium battery fire. if it was there would be nothing left ... the carport would be gone ... the house would be gone.

[Homestar]

I'm just really keen to know how the batteries last in real world use as the car ages. We will know in about 5 years time :)

I think you’re about spot on with your time line. We’re starting to see some data from our first Lithium battery packs we use - they range from 10KWH to 125KWH and all are LiFePo4 tech. Oldest of which is just on 3 years old now.

We’ve had some now do over 1200 charge cycles and we’ve seen exactly zero degradation in them which of course we’re pretty happy with. Current performance and future long term are very different but our earlier AGM deep cycle systems we had between 10KWH and 30KWH show marked degradation after 1000 cycles. The most we got from one of these was around 1600 cycles and 3 years and the batteries were toast by then. We’ve replaced all of these with LiFePo4 since. We know they’ll crap all over AGM tech but when they start to degrade and how quickly they fall off the cliff when that happens is still yet to be seen. I think you’re right about the 5 year mark - we’ll have a pretty good handle on them by then.

[TonyC]

I think you’re about spot on with your time line. We’re starting to see some data from our first Lithium battery packs we use - they range from 10KWH to 125KWH and all are LiFePo4 tech. Oldest of which is just on 3 years old now.

We’ve had some now do over 1200 charge cycles and we’ve seen exactly zero degradation in them which of course we’re pretty happy with. Current performance and future long term are very different but our earlier AGM deep cycle systems we had between 10KWH and 30KWH show marked degradation after 1000 cycles. The most we got from one of these was around 1600 cycles and 3 years and the batteries were toast by then. We’ve replaced all of these with LiFePo4 since. We know they’ll crap all over AGM tech but when they start to degrade and how quickly they fall off the cliff when that happens is still yet to be seen. I think you’re right about the 5 year mark - we’ll have a pretty good handle on them by then.

Hi Gav,

Do you charge to 100% discharge to 100% or 90/10, 80/20 or is dependent on the job?

Tony

[DiscoDB]

1200 cycles translates to an equivalent of 300,000 to 400,000kms for an average EV. Potentially over 500,000km for one with extended range.

And if the batteries prove they do last the 1500-2000 cycles that should be expected, then the typical EV battery will probably last longer than the rest of the car.

The other positive is on current price projections, a typical replacement battery could be under $10K by 2030, cheaper than an engine replacement.

Sure some batteries will fail earlier, but then again so do many ICE’s. I certainly would have more faith in an EV battery outlasting the rest of the car, than the TDV6 will in my D3. 🤪

[prelude]

They better be lasting a whole heap longer. See, your TDV6 I can toss into a schredder, the plastic will float up in water, the aluminium will sink and the metal will stick to a magnet. Throw it all in their respective furnace et presto, recycled ali, steel and even plastic (up to a limited number of times).

Not so with the Battery from your EV. And no, not in the future for so far as I can tell with the current state of development.

-P

[DiscoDB]

EV battery recycling is already happening. By the time volumes pick up to significant levels, there will be multiple options available.

Plus by 2030, I would expect repurposing old EV batteries with 80% capacity remaining into house solar storage batteries will be an option as well.

[spudfan]

Was it an EV defender? because that is no lithium battery fire. if it was there would be nothing left ... the carport would be gone ... the house would be gone.

This is the latest update from the owner.
"I've done little bit more research and actually I've found some similar stories about HVAC that was turning on. That's what exactly happened. HVAC turned on (although the car was off for several hours) and started to work like crazy. That overloaded the fuses and I think it was the reason why the fire started. The question remains -> why HVAC launched itself."
What is "HVAC"?

[V8Ian]

This is the latest update from the owner.
"I've done little bit more research and actually I've found some similar stories about HVAC that was turning on. That's what exactly happened. HVAC turned on (although the car was off for several hours) and started to work like crazy. That overloaded the fuses and I think it was the reason why the fire started. The question remains -> why HVAC launched itself."
What is "HVAC"?
Heating/Ventilation/Air Conditioning.

[DoubleChevron]

EV battery recycling is already happening. By the time volumes pick up to significant levels, there will be multiple options available.

Plus by 2030, I would expect repurposing old EV batteries with 80% capacity remaining into house solar storage batteries will be an option as well.

None of this is going to happen. There is recycling in the world that shreds the batteries ... they first must be manually dismantled ... by a person into tiny segments to make them safe to handle. very dangerous work. Once shredded, there isn't really a process in the world on a commercial scale to process this. You can't find details (as its obviously so horendous for the environment) but it sounds like to extract any minerals they either burn ... or dissolve the shredded batteries into a toxic mess ..... likely very energy inefficient and extraordinarily toxic. Not only that they keep burning. That recycling place in france that torched off a couple of months back .... its the 3rd time its burnt down ? NIMBY big time from me. No way would I want one of those fire prone messes in my back yard.

Why keep repeating the utter lunacy of repurpsoing batteries. I'll just cut and paste my post from the last page



I wish I could stop people repeating this crazyness. So you want to take a leaky, ageing inredibly dangerous lithium battery ... remove all of its exotic monitors and controllers, remove its exotic cooling systems and sensors ... and stick it on your house wall ... where your family sleeps. I for one can't see a single issue with that [bigrolf][bighmmm]:firedevil::firedevil::firedevil: This is the sort of utter stupidity that gets repeated by electric car zealots :) I would be hoping land rover owners would have more common sense that to follow lunacy if its screamed at them in the media.


you're just repeating the lunacy the electric car zealots and media keep screaming at us. only none of it is even close to reality. The brand new houses batteries are torching off all over the place ... and you want to stick leaky old lithium cells from cars on your house :o

[DiscoDB]

All problems which are solvable to avoid the need to manually break the batteries down. Same process used to recycle all sorts of lithium batteries.

There are companies already doing it - technology just needs to be scaled up now.

https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ?feature=shared

Even repurposing EV batteries is starting. All small steps to date, but the market will grow with time. The volume is just too small at present, but in the next 5-10 years I believe it will be common place. It is too big of a market opportunity to ignore and with house batteries up to 4 times the cost of EV batteries, there is a financial incentive to make it happen.

What happens to old electric vehicle batteries? (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/what-happens-to-old-ev-batteries)

And of course if they can’t be repurposed for a second 15 year life, then they will just be recycled.

[DoubleChevron]

All problems which are solvable to avoid the need to manually break the batteries down. Same process used to recycle all sorts of lithium batteries.

There are companies already doing it - technology just needs to be scaled up now.

https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ?feature=shared

Even repurposing EV batteries is starting. All small steps to date, but the market will grow with time. The volume is just too small at present, but in the next 5-10 years I believe it will be common place. It is too big of a market opportunity to ignore and with house batteries up to 4 times the cost of EV batteries, there is a financial incentive to make it happen.

What happens to old electric vehicle batteries? (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/what-happens-to-old-ev-batteries)

And of course if they can’t be repurposed for a second 15 year life, then they will just be recycled.

those fluff videos describe exactly what I stated. They can shred the batteries (sort of ... they only ever show tiny batteries being shredded). Search some more about car batteries, the only thing you will find is one single picture of someone manually dismantling a large car battery. Fluff videos aside, what are we going to do with the shredded batteries. How and where are they processing the shredded batteries these "everyhting is amazing .... and fabulous" videos show? How bad for the environment is processing these batteries? If it wasn't horrendous there would be fluff videos everywhere about it.

now there is big recycling plants in europe being built. They are no good to us, even if they actually manage to recycle the batteries without burning.... how do we get the horrendously dangerous, aged, leaking batteries to these locations. We sure cannot put them on a ship, brand new batteries fitted to brand new cars are already sinking ships. there is no way we can start sending container loads of degraded possibly damaged batteries all over the world.

https://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/index.php?attachments/20240705_003030-jpg.244344/

They "think" we might invest in a recycling plant here. Really what I think will end up happening is these enormously dangerous batteries will be stuck in a warehouse/holding yard somewhere "to be recycled". At some point one of them will go into meltdown and torch off the other thousands of batteries "waiting for recycling". And just like that, we have the biggest, most toxic fire in all of australian history that cannot be extinguished. DOn't worry, I'm sure they won't put these "recycling yards" in suburbia.

Honestly I think we'll have to bury them, its the only safe thing to do, if they torch off underground they shouldn't spew chemicals into the air. they will "only" taint the ground water.

I think we will end up recycling them in the same way we do with tires. The problem is we can't just hide them in 3rd world countries where no-one can see and "pretend" they are recycled, because they are so dangerous.

[DiscoDB]

The video I posted showed it processing an EV battery.

You see it being loaded on the feed conveyor, going up the conveyor, and even going into the top of shredding circuit. The fluff you see is the shredded plastics. [emoji12]

They recover 95% of the metals. Recycling uses 70% less energy than mining those same metals from scratch, and so will be highly viable. Just needs financial backing to commercialise.

But they are not the only player developing technology and processes to recycle EV batteries. A lot of investment being made by car companies, mining companies, and recycling firms to make it happen.

Even a failed EV battery has too much value in it to go to landfill, often just requiring failed modules to be replaced to give it a second life as a re-manufactured battery — this is even happening here in Melbourne.

EV & Hybrid Battery replacement specialists
– Infinitev (https://infinitev.au/)

[NavyDiver]

I may have found my NEXT car. 'May'be[thumbsupbig]

Its NIO ES8. Not in OZ yet. Might be 2025.

NIO ES8: Redefine Prime | NIO (https://www.nio.com/es8)

It might tow 2000kg! It might allow battery swaps! That last bit is of interest to me for potential to swap up to Solid State in future once my nutting American company or Korea or China get that party started!

It might be able to get me fishing out deep again [thumbsupbig]

[DoubleChevron]

The video I posted showed it processing an EV battery.

You see it being loaded on the feed conveyor, going up the conveyor, and even going into the top of shredding circuit. The fluff you see is the shredded plastics. [emoji12]

They recover 95% of the metals. Recycling uses 70% less energy than mining those same metals from scratch, and so will be highly viable. Just needs financial backing to commercialise.

But they are not the only player developing technology and processes to recycle EV batteries. A lot of investment being made by car companies, mining companies, and recycling firms to make it happen.

Even a failed EV battery has too much value in it to go to landfill, often just requiring failed modules to be replaced to give it a second life as a re-manufactured battery — this is even happening here in Melbourne.

EV & Hybrid Battery replacement specialists
– Infinitev (https://infinitev.au/)

that's exactly what they are ... fluff videos. seriously if you can find how they process the shredded batteries, I'd love to know how its done. As I can find nothing on it. its like a black hole. Do we just have moutains of the shredded/processed batteries sitting around the world waiting for a viable (financially and environmentally sound) way for them to be recovered? You could be right, they might be doing it somewhere ... maybe? Why isnt' there fluff videos everywhere about it. I'd be more than happy if you were right .... but I just don't see it. You know all the sunshine and rainbows about all of the amazing recycling we currently do .... Don't look into it .... Not even in the slightest.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/07/article-2337351-1A3181E4000005DC-334_964x714.jpg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/06/07/article-2337351-1A318200000005DC-151_964x609.jpg

this isn't dumped tile piles so large you can see them from space ....

https://www.shutterstock.com/shutterstock/photos/1386041876/display_1500/stock-photo-birds-gulls-fly-over-a-landfill-in-europe-like-over-a-huge-sea-of-garbage-in-search-of-food-waste-1386041876.jpg

all our amazing recyling efforts here .... we do amazing work, er, "recycling" that by dumping it in 3rd world countries


We just CANNOT do this with batteries. They are to dangerous.

[101RRS]

I may have found my NEXT car. 'May'be[thumbsupbig]

Its NIO ES8. Not in OZ yet. Might be 2025.

NIO ES8: Redefine Prime | NIO (https://www.nio.com/es8)



Launched in 2017 and ceased production in 2021.

[DiscoDB]

that's exactly what they are ... fluff videos. seriously if you can find how they process the shredded batteries, I'd love to know how its done. As I can find nothing on it. its like a black hole. Do we just have moutains of the shredded/processed batteries sitting around the world waiting for a viable (financially and environmentally sound) way for them to be recovered?

So that is where the IP is. Once the plastics and the aluminium/copper metals are separated they can go through normal recycling. The remaining product called the “black mass” contains the lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt and graphite. Graphite can be separated by flotation, and the other products go through a more complex hydro-metallurgical process to be recovered. Much like how many metals are made in the first place from ore concentrates. Different companies use different approaches.

One good explanation on how one company processes the black mass is here:

https://youtu.be/g1Ij4Emz8XQ?feature=shared

BASF gave this presentation 3 years ago which goes into more detail on how their process works and how it differs from other metallurgical processes:

https://youtu.be/XylDkcrJgTw?feature=shared

And this company’s approach is to produce a high purity mix which is like what is used to produce the batteries in the first place:

https://youtu.be/xwtmDFwL_Lk?feature=shared

The race is on to commercialise and protect the IP through patents so it can be licensed. Tesla claim to have their own in-house process to fully recycle their batteries, but other car companies are partnering with specialise lithium iron battery recycling companies.

EU mandates are basically ensuring the car companies take full ownership for the recycling of EV batteries and setting minimum recycle content in new batteries, hence the big investments being made to make it happen.

[NavyDiver]

Launched in 2017 and ceased production in 2021.

Whoops. My Maybe was right then [biggrin]

[DoubleChevron]

So that is where the IP is. Once the plastics and the aluminium/copper metals are separated they can go through normal recycling. The remaining product called the “black mass” contains the lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt and graphite. Graphite can be separated by flotation, and the other products go through a more complex hydro-metallurgical process to be recovered. Much like how many metals are made in the first place from ore concentrates. Different companies use different approaches.

One good explanation on how one company processes the black mass is here:

https://youtu.be/g1Ij4Emz8XQ?feature=shared

BASF gave this presentation 3 years ago which goes into more detail on how their process works and how it differs from other metallurgical processes:

https://youtu.be/XylDkcrJgTw?feature=shared

And this company’s approach is to produce a high purity mix which is like what is used to produce the batteries in the first place:

https://youtu.be/xwtmDFwL_Lk?feature=shared

The race is on to commercialise and protect the IP through patents so it can be licensed. Tesla claim to have their own in-house process to fully recycle their batteries, but other car companies are partnering with specialise lithium iron battery recycling companies.

EU mandates are basically ensuring the car companies take full ownership for the recycling of EV batteries, hence the big investments being made to make it happen.

That first video, that is really cool. I wonder if they have got it past the pilot stage yet. I'm going to watch it later (I just scrolled through it quickly). I'm going to send that to someone else that was trying to understand what we are going to do with the shredded batteries too.

They can also recycle solar panels in australia too..... Well we don't but they have figured out a way too, its currently not really viable due to costs. fingers crossed they do manage to figure out a way of recycling these that isn't worse for the environment than just digging more out of the ground. Do you know if anyone is doing this commercially yet? I didn't manage to find this stuff when I was searching everywhere.

I have seen the video with regards to shreding the batteries you listed before. Yeah I remember them forklfting the car battery on. They certainly didn't show it being shredded that I can remember (All I can think is BOOM .... big fire and explosion) if you try and shred a big car battery without first dismantling and completely discharging it. At least that is what I assume they must do!

[DiscoDB]

The first video is about the Duesenfeld process. Duesenfeld is a German R&D company that develops, patents, and licenses the process. The make money selling the license to their process to others. BMW have partnered with them.

Low energy consumption and highest recovery rates (https://www.duesenfeld.com/recycling_en.html)

Having said it was reported that they do process 3,000t of EV batteries a year to demonstrate the process.

The main competitor is Redwood Materials which is who Ford, Toyota, GM, and VW have partnered with to recycle EV batteries. They are currently ramping up and expected to become the major source of materials for new battery manufacturing in the US.

And the very first video from the earlier post is the other competitor Li-Cycle. They are currently pursuing further financing to progress to the next stage of processing. Glencore have recently invested with them.

And as NavyDiver would say - This is not financial advice!

[NavyDiver]

The first video is about the Duesenfeld process. Duesenfeld is a German R&D company that develops, patents, and licenses the process. The make money selling the license to their process to others.

Low energy consumption and highest recovery rates (https://www.duesenfeld.com/recycling_en.html)

Having said it was reported that they do process 3,000t of EV batteries a year to demonstrate the process.

The main competitor is Redwood Materials which is who Ford, Toyota, GM, and VW have partnered with to recycle EV batteries. They are currently ramping up and expected to become the major source of materials for new battery manufacturing in the US.

And the very first video from the earlier post is the other competitor Li-Cycle. They are currently pursuing further financing to progress to the next stage of processing. Glencore have recently invested with them.

And as NavyDiver would say - This is not financial advice!

Anyone listening to my waffle about buying things including my favorite Disco would know its not always safe to dive in with me [biggrin][biggrin] Several of my Navy Mates with PTSD after watching me 'working wet' know its not always cool even just watching some things I have done will wet or not[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Put this up as I am going cold turkey next week[biggrin]

After the coldest week on record for the year a snowy idea for next weekend is happening for me. I usually sleep off the mountains in my swag so cold is fine.


[B]I took an electric car to the snow… should you?
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/elec ... -and-snow/ (https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/electric-cars-and-snow/)






"While I can't say, based on my limited testing, that any electric car won't see a noticeable drop in range travelling in sub-zero temperatures, I can state that I saw around 20 electric cars on the mountain across the three-day trip – ***** Tesla Model Ys, Model 3s and BYD Atto 3s."


I will have a quiet day trip rather than sleeping in the snow this time as my partner has never camped out before. The swags do fit in my MG. Not nearly as much space as my D3 of course! No Alpine Deisel required [thumbsupbig]

:D

[DoubleChevron]

Anyone listening to my waffle about buying things including my favorite Disco would know its not always safe to dive in with me [biggrin][biggrin] Several of my Navy Mates with PTSD after watching me 'working wet' know its not always cool even just watching some things I have done will wet or not[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Put this up as I am going cold turkey next week[biggrin]

After the coldest week on record for the year a snowy idea for next weekend is happening for me. I usually sleep off the mountains in my swag so cold is fine.


[B]I took an electric car to the snow… should you?
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/elec ... -and-snow/ (https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/electric-cars-and-snow/)






"While I can't say, based on my limited testing, that any electric car won't see a noticeable drop in range travelling in sub-zero temperatures, I can state that I saw around 20 electric cars on the mountain across the three-day trip – ***** Tesla Model Ys, Model 3s and BYD Atto 3s."


I will have a quiet day trip rather than sleeping in the snow this time as my partner has never camped out before. The swags do fit in my MG. Not nearly as much space as my D3 of course! No Alpine Deisel required [thumbsupbig]

:D

I'm not anti-electric car .... I'm just anti-stupidity. This is a bit like taking an electric car across australia. sure it can be done ... Ideal? Not on your life. I don't want to post anti-ev stuff .... but hate the lunacy being screamed at us about how amazing they are. If you're going somewhere with temperature extremes, obviously you take the appropriate vehicle. snow? you probably want 4wd .. if its diesel, make sure its winter diesel in your tank. all the modern ICE engines should be happy to run in all extremes of weather. we have been building the things for over a century!

Of course there will be reduction in range (no matter what the zealots claim). Its the design of the battery. Ever noticed how much less capacity the start battery in your car has of a freezing cold morning too ?

Its a bit lke the recycling caper being screamed at us. Its just not possible. there is what 40million cars on the roads now. That is 40million big dangerous batteries that will need to be dismantled, decharged and shredded without torching off ... and burning everything down. We aren't managing it now, so how will we when there is thousands of more recyling places around the world (and we will need thousand of more ... the recycling places need to be where the batteries are located at end of life).

[NavyDiver]

Checking out snow chains at the moment. The rear wheel drive is clearly not a great as a 4wd. Not going 4wding at present.

I have to check If I gave my Disco's snow chains to a nice gent on here. Interesting side on that was when I did go to the snow I carried them. They were for my 18 inch road or AT tires. I almost always put the 17-inch MTs on before real 4wd. I was a bit checky as my chains did not fit the MTs[biggrin]

Fully appreciate that having my Disco made it less likely I would get bogged or stopped in almost any place when the right rubber was on! Most Landrovers could get stuck and slippery on wet grass with most of the rubber on them as they never get dirty playing in the mud.[thumbsupbig]

Lots of crazy people have taken EVs around OZ already. Lots of people do it on push Bikes[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Probably driving to Broome for the marathon next year. Which is nuttier[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

Having fun and doing it your way is best [thumbsupbig]

Edit If I am screaming at you, I seriously offer my apologies. Put a waffle one in C.A. I am not anti wind, Solar, Gas or .... I am anti bull dust and I like most people think you should be able to choose IF we pay for our choices. The CA post in Economics explains that I hope.

[DiscoDB]

I have seen the video with regards to shreding the batteries you listed before. Yeah I remember them forklfting the car battery on. They certainly didn't show it being shredded that I can remember (All I can think is BOOM .... big fire and explosion) if you try and shred a big car battery without first dismantling and completely discharging it. At least that is what I assume they must do!

In answer to your other concern, no they do not explode or ignite when being crushed properly. The Duesenfeld process achieves this by doing a deep discharge of the modules first, and then crushes them in an inert gas environment so no potential for the battery to ignite.

Wet crushing processes like that used by Li-Cycle use a liquid solution that will not react with the electrolyte and converts the lithium to a non-reactive state as soon as it is exposed to the liquid. You see this in the video. Wet crushing is potentially a lower cost process but then requires treatment of the water to reuse. It is not clear if Li-Cycle do a deep discharge first.

The storage of used batteries does present risks as well. Deep discharging is a good step to take before storing and allows the energy to be reused to power the recycling process. The biggest risk is the millions of phone, laptop, and small lithium batteries waiting to be recycled. These batteries have been collected for decades now and currently are probably the biggest volume of material needing to be processed.

They need to be stored in approved non-conductive containers, have the contacts all taped up, and the containers filled with non-conductive material like sand. They need to be managed like a Dangerous Good and kept seperate from any other dangerous goods. They also need pre-sorting to separate damaged batteries which need to be stored and managed separately. Ideally sealed individually in non-conductive bags and potentially stored in fire safe containers.

One thing that is needed is regulations need to catch up quickly. Lithium battery recycling should be treated like any other dangerous goods or hazardous facility and regulated accordingly. Just as you don’t build oil refineries in residential areas, you shouldn’t bulk store and process recycled lithium batteries in or near residential areas either.

So yes if a company is planning to store large volumes of used batteries or build a recycling plant near you, demand to know more and raise your concerns with the relevant authorities. I agree that we don’t want this turning into the debacle we see with used tyres - perhaps the biggest unspoken about waste material generated by fossil fuels. Perhaps tyre companies should also be forced to take back all used tyres and recycle.

[Narangga]

My Niro is now 12 months old. It has traveled 21,809km at 14.6 kWh/100km (Kia advertise 16.2). At the current gazetted NT retail energy price of $0.2921 per kW, that equates to $4.26 per 100km. Vehicle is doing exactly what it was purchased for so very happy.

[NavyDiver]

Start with the ugly [biggrin] JLR are stopping the I-pace in Dec 24!!!
"Production of the model will come to an end in December 2024.Jaguar Land Rover announced this month that its luxury Jaguar brand will eliminate five out of six models, including the all-electric Jaguar I-Pace.
According to the company's CEO Adrian Mardell (via Automotive News Europe (https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jlr-cut-5-jaguar-cars-its-lineup-boost-income)), production of the Jaguar XE, XF, and F-type ended in May, while production of the E-Pace and I-Pace at Magna Steyr, a contract manufacturer in Graz, Austria, will stop in December. This means that for a while, the brand will be left with a single midsize SUV model, the F-Pace."

The Bad[biggrin]

"Production of the model will come to an end in December 2024.Jaguar Land Rover announced this month that its luxury Jaguar brand will eliminate five out of six models, including the all-electric Jaguar I-Pace.
According to the company's CEO Adrian Mardell (via Automotive News Europe (https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jlr-cut-5-jaguar-cars-its-lineup-boost-income)), production of the Jaguar XE, XF, and F-type ended in May, while production of the E-Pace and I-Pace at Magna Steyr, a contract manufacturer in Graz, Austria, will stop in December. This means that for a while, the brand will be left with a single midsize SUV model, the F-Pace."

The good? [bigrolf]


"The reason behind the radical shift is Jaguar's upcoming transition to an all-electric luxury brand with three all-new models based on the Jaguar Electrified Architecture (JEA) platform." link
Jaguar I-Pace: An EV Pioneer Dies With A Whimper (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/jaguar-i-pace-an-ev-pioneer-dies-with-a-whimper/ar-BB1qei8m?ocid=msedgntp&pc=EDBBAN&cvid=b0103bd16a9249d1b779e24941d05a9b&ei=14)


"
Exclusive: Jaguar to return in 2025 with trio of electric sports SUVs
Three “jaw-dropping” crossovers will take Jaguar into Bentley territory, with new platform, tech and design"

Exclusive: Jaguar to return in 2025 with trio of electric sports SUVs | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/exclusive-jaguar-return-2025-trio-electric-sports-suvs)



The Movie is needed after stealing that line [thumbsupbig]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2HwN3jf_9w

[DoubleChevron]

Start with the ugly JLR are stopping the I-pace in Dec 24!!!
"[B]Production of the model will come to an end in December 2024.

Jaguar Land Rover announced this month that its luxury Jaguar brand will eliminate five out of six models, including the all-electric Jaguar I-Pace.
According to the company's CEO Adrian Mardell (via Automotive News Europe (https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jlr-cut-5-jaguar-cars-its-lineup-boost-income)), production of the Jaguar XE, XF, and F-type ended in May, while production of the E-Pace and I-Pace at Magna Steyr, a contract manufacturer in Graz, Austria, will stop in December. This means that for a while, the brand will be left with a single midsize SUV model, the F-Pace."

The Bad

"[B]Production of the model will come to an end in December 2024.

Jaguar Land Rover announced this month that its luxury Jaguar brand will eliminate five out of six models, including the all-electric Jaguar I-Pace.
According to the company's CEO Adrian Mardell (via Automotive News Europe (https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/jlr-cut-5-jaguar-cars-its-lineup-boost-income)), production of the Jaguar XE, XF, and F-type ended in May, while production of the E-Pace and I-Pace at Magna Steyr, a contract manufacturer in Graz, Austria, will stop in December. This means that for a while, the brand will be left with a single midsize SUV model, the F-Pace."

The good?


"The reason behind the radical shift is Jaguar's upcoming transition to an all-electric luxury brand with three all-new models based on the Jaguar Electrified Architecture (JEA) platform." link
Jaguar I-Pace: An EV Pioneer Dies With A Whimper (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/jaguar-i-pace-an-ev-pioneer-dies-with-a-whimper/ar-BB1qei8m?ocid=msedgntp&pc=EDBBAN&cvid=b0103bd16a9249d1b779e24941d05a9b&ei=14)


"
[B]Exclusive: Jaguar to return in 2025 with trio of electric sports SUVs


Three “jaw-dropping” crossovers will take Jaguar into Bentley territory, with new platform, tech and design
"

Exclusive: Jaguar to return in 2025 with trio of electric sports SUVs | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/exclusive-jaguar-return-2025-trio-electric-sports-suvs)



The Movie is needed after stealing that line [thumbsupbig]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2HwN3jf_9w

That's sad, all I read is "jaguar will be bankrupt and no longer exist in the near future :( ". Sure build some electric cars, some poeple want them .... the majority don't. so discontinue building the cars the majority want ... sure that makes sense [bighmmm]

Maybe these companies are planning and sueing the government for losses when it doesn't pan out [bigwhistle]

[Tins]

Maybe these companies are planning and sueing the government for losses when it doesn't pan out [bigwhistle]

That's about the only reason I can see for Ford's new Capri. The sales, or lack of them, of the Mustang Mach-E shows that the things are a failure outside of fleet sales.

[prelude]

it's one of those slow creeping things, from a novelty to now a common site on our roads. Recently I have been seeing old people with more money than brains driving their EV towing a huge caravan. I wonder how often they have to stop to charge... A tesla with a boat behind it is a ridiculous sight I must say [bigrolf]

-P

[Tins]

A tesla with a boat behind it is a ridiculous sight I must say [bigrolf]

-P

Question: Is their boat electric too?

[TonyC]

Question: Is their boat electric too?

Nope, 2 stroke 😎

[Tins]

Nope, 2 stroke 😎

Maybe they could charge the car off that.

[Saitch]

Maybe they could charge the car off that.

I'm sure the owners would be used to having more than 2 strokes.

[Tombie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240719/fec7e9c263b29ae641d031d73bc44ae4.jpg

[Tins]

I'm sure the owners would be used to having more than 2 strokes.

On the other hand....

[spudfan]

Seems there are still a few iffy battaries about
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/stellantis-tells-owners-of-over-24-000-hybrid-minivans-to-park-outdoors-due-to-battery-fire-risk/ar-BB1qevi5?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=2d6baa718c4f4d10a177518add1f8377&ei=59
Also this little ditty.
Hybrid car bursts into flames causing severe burns to motorist

A hybrid car in Greater Manchester burst into flames forcing the driver to jump into the back seat to save his 19 month old granddaughter causing him severe burns in the process.

[Tins]

Seems there are still a few iffy battaries about
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/stellantis-tells-owners-of-over-24-000-hybrid-minivans-to-park-outdoors-due-to-battery-fire-risk/ar-BB1qevi5?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=2d6baa718c4f4d10a177518add1f8377&ei=59


In the first para they say to stop charging them. In the second they say "all can still be driven". Just not very far.

Sales, other than Govt or fleet, are collapsing. And fleet companies depend on ROI to stay in business, so it's only a matter of time for them. And if this is the trend then pretty soon they will become uninsurable.

Politicians really need to stay out of the markets, especially when they get their thought bubbles from single issue lobby groups. After all, Henny Penny was wrong.

[prelude]

Nah, it was one of them 250HP honda units, so at least it was 4 stroke(s) :)

Also, enough KW to fast charge the tesla, if it had a generator attached. Perhaps it was not enough compensation -ahem- thus the model x in front of it.... What I am most interested in is: how much range did that huge wind drag suck down and how on earth is he going to charge that thing? Even in our densely populated swap marina's are usually far from the grid and do not have a lot of juice available -g-

-P

[Tins]

In my YT feed today was a 12 minute vid someone put up about changing a flat tyre on his BYD Seal, whatever that is. Really??

I didn't watch.

[NavyDiver]

In my YT feed today was a 12 minute vid someone put up about changing a flat tyre on his BYD Seal, whatever that is. Really??

I didn't watch.

I have seen three seals recently. Just found a tow bar option for my MG4 Its a 500KG or 750kg braked I think. I want one for my bike rack.
Tow is far to light for my boat.

The Seal is rated to 1500kg-1750? towing.


My D3 power was 140kW of power at 4000rpm and 445Nm of torque at a low 1900rpm
Seal mid options is

Maximum Power - 230 kW
Maximum Torque - 360 Nm

It isnt a off road beast of course. It could now tow my boat I assume up to about 300km which is interesting! It's range claims of


Up to 650km range NEDC - 570km WLTP

I may be fishing again sooner than I thought[thumbsupbig] Add Diving from the boat is so much safer than scampering over the rocks as I have been doing recently.

I am going for a test drive tomorrow!

[Tombie]

I have seen three seals recently. Just found a tow bar option for my MG4 Its a 500KG or 750kg braked I think. I want one for my bike rack.
Tow is far to light for my boat.

The Seal is rated to 1500kg-1750? towing.


My D3 power was 140kW of power at 4000rpm and 445Nm of torque at a low 1900rpm
Seal mid options is

Maximum Power - 230 kW
Maximum Torque - 360 Nm

It isnt a off road beast of course. It could now tow my boat I assume up to about 300km which is interesting! It's range claims of


Up to 650km range NEDC - 570km WLTP

I may be fishing again sooner than I thought[thumbsupbig] Add Diving from the boat is so much safer than scampering over the rocks as I have been doing recently.

I am going for a test drive tomorrow!

Good Luck!

Id be surprised if it gets 200km with a Boat on back - with a tailwind, downhill

[NavyDiver]

Good Luck!

Id be surprised if it gets 200km with a Boat on back - with a tailwind, downhill
South Westerly almost assured[thumbsupbig] Oddly 200 with the several charging place with 350kWh and 150 and 50 would still make it to my usual spot west of Warrnambool. Honestly much more likely to wait for the solid state crew to swing into town. The KIA EV9 was a possible early jump back into towing as well. Current battery tech is not where I want for the 10 years, I want to hold my Disco replacement[thumbsupbig]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

SNIP
Its a bit lke the recycling caper being screamed at us. Its just not possible. there is what 40million cars on the roads now. That is 40million big dangerous batteries that will need to be dismantled, decharged and shredded without torching off ... and burning everything down. We aren't managing it now, so how will we when there is thousands of more recyling places around the world (and we will need thousand of more ... the recycling places need to be where the batteries are located at end of life).

The whole battery recycling thing. We aren't doing it now because there are no batteries to recycle. Yes we can. Yes we will. Yes it will be useful and yes we will recover the stuff.

BUT we don't because all the EV's in Australia are new. They are under their 8 year battery warranties so there are only a handful outside of this. For the very rare cases where there is a failure.. certainly in the case of Tesla they remove the battery pack and send it back to the US for refurbishment.

Why would a company set up an EV battery recycling plant here yet? Build it and hope that in another 5/10 years you might start getting some customers? That's crazy talk.

We should be recycling small appliance batteries now.. but that is off topic.


https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ'si=mBAtdIOBhWY-Ah3Y

[DoubleChevron]

The whole battery recycling thing. We aren't doing it now because there are no batteries to recycle. Yes we can. Yes we will. Yes it will be useful and yes we will recover the stuff.

BUT we don't because all the EV's in Australia are new. They are under their 8 year battery warranties so there are only a handful outside of this. For the very rare cases where there is a failure.. certainly in the case of Tesla they remove the battery pack and send it back to the US for refurbishment.

Why would a company set up an EV battery recycling plant here yet? Build it and hope that in another 5/10 years you might start getting some customers? That's crazy talk.

We should be recycling small appliance batteries now.. but that is off topic.


https://youtu.be/s2xrarUWVRQ'si=mBAtdIOBhWY-Ah3Y


Its the same fluff video posted endlessly. its not just a simple... kinda vague "it'll happen somehow". Does no-one understand how dangerous these batteries are.

Kilwinning: Drone footage reveals extent of battery plant fire | The Herald (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24243524.fenix-kilwinning-not-first-battery-recycling-plant-fire/)

The recycling plants keep burning down. It would never happen in europe with all there stringent regulations. Certainly not germany. Yet there recycling plant has burned down three times now.

This issue is magnified thousands of times over due to the sheer number and density of cells in an electric car. Before they can be recycled we need people ... humans .... Those things that are fragile, expensive to hire ... get easily damaged and burnt to manually dismantle all of those huge battery packs. discharge them and make them safe (including the damaged ones).

"She'll be right mate" ...... [bigrolf] Nothing to see here [bigwhistle] :firedevil::firedevil::whistling::o

[Tins]

Its the same fluff video posted endlessly.

Indeed. But hey, if Google/YouTube says it it must be right, yeah? The naiveté is astonishing.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Its the same fluff video posted endlessly. its not just a simple... kinda vague "it'll happen somehow". Does no-one understand how dangerous these batteries are.

Kilwinning: Drone footage reveals extent of battery plant fire | The Herald (https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24243524.fenix-kilwinning-not-first-battery-recycling-plant-fire/)

The recycling plants keep burning down. It would never happen in europe with all there stringent regulations. Certainly not germany. Yet there recycling plant has burned down three times now.

This issue is magnified thousands of times over due to the sheer number and density of cells in an electric car. Before they can be recycled we need people ... humans .... Those things that are fragile, expensive to hire ... get easily damaged and burnt to manually dismantle all of those huge battery packs. discharge them and make them safe (including the damaged ones).

"She'll be right mate" ...... [bigrolf] Nothing to see here [bigwhistle] :firedevil::firedevil::whistling::o

VW seem to be managing. Note the sequence where they discharge the pack before they feed it it.

It's not "She'll be right". These problems are solvable it's just there isn't any pressing need at this stage because there aren't car battery packs to recycle! I'm pretty sure I wouldn't invest in a service that isn't going to be required for at least 10 years. Doesn't seem like a good business plan.

I wonder if at the birth of the ice vehicle whether they said "Hold up.. you can't go selling those until you can prove they can be recycled at the end of their life". I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi8Y2lF7Luw

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Just to continue to contribute balance in this thread. More details of ICE subsidies and tax breaks.

Luxury ute tax loophole costs Australians $250m a year, researchers say | Transport | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jul/22/luxury-ute-tax-loophole-emissions-reductions-evs-taxpayers)

[DoubleChevron]

VW seem to be managing. Note the sequence where they discharge the pack before they feed it it.

It's not "She'll be right". These problems are solvable it's just there isn't any pressing need at this stage because there aren't car battery packs to recycle! I'm pretty sure I wouldn't invest in a service that isn't going to be required for at least 10 years. Doesn't seem like a good business plan.

I wonder if at the birth of the ice vehicle whether they said "Hold up.. you can't go selling those until you can prove they can be recycled at the end of their life". I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi8Y2lF7Luw

that is a battery module from a dismantled battery. I'm surprised they haven't broken it down further. they skip over the work of dismantling and testing the big battery in about 15seconds. That sure isn't the reality. I'm pretty sure this isn't where they burn, it'll be in storage while they are waiting for recycling. Imagine about 40million of these being need done in the next 5'ish years and you will understand the staggering scale of this task.

[Tombie]

Just to continue to contribute balance in this thread. More details of ICE subsidies and tax breaks.

Luxury ute tax loophole costs Australians $250m a year, researchers say | Transport | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/jul/22/luxury-ute-tax-loophole-emissions-reductions-evs-taxpayers)

A tax break is far different to a subsidy...

If I give you something for nothing, thats a damn big difference over paying you to take it..


Lets look at EVs

federal government removed import tariff on all EVs
federal government raised LCT threshold on EVs




ACT

Free registration for EVs for 2 years
Discount for hybrids
Interest free loans





QLD

Rebates up to $6000 (this comes out of tax payers pockets)
Discounted rego



These are the 2 big players - most other states have ceased their incentives / rebates or reduced significantly...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

A tax break is far different to a subsidy...

If I give you something for nothing, thats a damn big difference over paying you to take it..


Lets look at EVs

federal government removed import tariff on all EVs
federal government raised LCT threshold on EVs




ACT

Free registration for EVs for 2 years
Discount for hybrids
Interest free loans





QLD

Rebates up to $6000 (this comes out of tax payers pockets)
Discounted rego



These are the 2 big players - most other states have ceased their incentives / rebates or reduced significantly...
You are right - the big difference between tax brakes and subsidies in this case is that subsidies are in this case given to lower income households to encourage them into lower priced EV's. Unlike the subsidy my post is about which is giving massive tax breaks on potentially very expensive cars to business owners.

For clarity.
- Point 2 the feds raised the LCT on "fuel efficient vehicles" and not specifically EV's.
- QLD does not discount registration for EV's. They are charged at the 4cyl rate.
- The QLD EV rebate applies to households with total income of less than $150k.
- The claimant cannot use leasing to buy the car so cannot access that way to purchase.
- The vehicles originally had to be less than 58k, and the scheme had almost no takers so was increased to 68k.
- The scheme is limited. The government has allocated 45 million and once that's gone its finished. As at July there was only 4 million left so better get in quick!

It's only a couple of years since the feds "of a different colour" allowed "instant asset write off" for equipment for businesses. It was so attractive that we bought so many utes it increased out GDP! Put that into context next to the cost of these schemes.

We need to reduce the number of large fuel efficient vehicles we are buying. We need to encourage people to make good choices. Because once an ICE car hits the roads, it continues polluting at the same rate until for it's life. I sure hope we don't end up buying ICE cars off the roads that we subsidised the purchase of in the early 2030's!

Attention Required! | Cloudflare (https://www.thenewdaily.com.au/finance/2021/06/11/utes-tax-write-offs)

[prelude]

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)

I guess the, for me at least, important part is the proprietary recycling techniques. We know how recycling an ICE works, it's metal after all and we have been doing that since the -drumroll- iron age! Lead acid batteries are also the simplest of devices to recycle, from that perspective they are like the incandescent light bulb. Easy "sturdy" and near 100% recyclable, even by an idiot with a hammer.

I personally can't see how you can recycle, say, up to 98% (like lead acid figures) of a lithium battery with its complex chemical composition, other stuff like cobalt anodes and the construction of the damn things. I am not saying it is completely impossible but until I SEE them do it, from step 1 to the last I am sceptical about the projected numbers.

Regarding tax breaks, who really cares? nobody it seems. In my personal opinion subsidies of any kind should be illegal. It also suggested large parts of the (western?) world have been sponsoring the oil industry and all that comes with it for a long long time and perhaps even to this day (and I guess they will have to in the near future*) giving it the moniker "big oil" but it seems we learned nothing from that, at all. The only thing that has happened is that big oil is being replaced with "big green" lobbying to destroy other things and more importantly, more money out of our pockets (direct or indirect)

*Why do I think this? Allow me to elaborate. I suspect that the reverse of what is happening with the eletrical-"revolution" will happen to let's call it FuelVehicles. When/IF there are more EV's on the road in comparison to FV's it will no longer be (economically) sustainable to run a petrol station. The costs of all the regulations and what not are quite high and can only be recouped if you sell enough fuel. The same economies of scale are going to happen to the refining of fuel etc etc. This in turn means that in the regions/areas/applications where an EV just won't cut it an FV will have to do the job. In order to keep those people/machines moving it may become necessary for the government to put money into it in order for them not to grind to a halt. I wonder how loud the greenies are going to shout by that time.

-P

[DoubleChevron]

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)

I guess the, for me at least, important part is the proprietary recycling techniques. We know how recycling an ICE works, it's metal after all and we have been doing that since the -drumroll- iron age! Lead acid batteries are also the simplest of devices to recycle, from that perspective they are like the incandescent light bulb. Easy "sturdy" and near 100% recyclable, even by an idiot with a hammer.

I personally can't see how you can recycle, say, up to 98% (like lead acid figures) of a lithium battery with its complex chemical composition, other stuff like cobalt anodes and the construction of the damn things. I am not saying it is completely impossible but until I SEE them do it, from step 1 to the last I am sceptical about the projected numbers.

Regarding tax breaks, who really cares? nobody it seems. In my personal opinion subsidies of any kind should be illegal. It also suggested large parts of the (western?) world have been sponsoring the oil industry and all that comes with it for a long long time and perhaps even to this day (and I guess they will have to in the near future*) giving it the moniker "big oil" but it seems we learned nothing from that, at all. The only thing that has happened is that big oil is being replaced with "big green" lobbying to destroy other things and more importantly, more money out of our pockets (direct or indirect)

*Why do I think this? Allow me to elaborate. I suspect that the reverse of what is happening with the eletrical-"revolution" will happen to let's call it FuelVehicles. When/IF there are more EV's on the road in comparison to FV's it will no longer be (economically) sustainable to run a petrol station. The costs of all the regulations and what not are quite high and can only be recouped if you sell enough fuel. The same economies of scale are going to happen to the refining of fuel etc etc. This in turn means that in the regions/areas/applications where an EV just won't cut it an FV will have to do the job. In order to keep those people/machines moving it may become necessary for the government to put money into it in order for them not to grind to a halt. I wonder how loud the greenies are going to shout by that time.

-P

if you go back a page ... maybe two there is a really good post that outlines how the batteries can be processed. The problem is it is like solar panels ... they "can" be recycled. but are they ......... I'm not convinced the final processing of the shredded batteries is not terrible for the environment either. what do we do with the toxic melted down sludge left over ? Like everything, there is probably a way to handle it, but do we?

The problem is when it comes to electric cars, you just can't believe anything the zealots screams (I dont' mean poeple posting here when I say that, I mean the sheer insanity in the media). Electric car owners/lovers often come across as almost members of cults :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

if you go back a page ... maybe two there is a really good post that outlines how the batteries can be processed. The problem is it is like solar panels ... they "can" be recycled. but are they ......... I'm not convinced the final processing of the shredded batteries is not terrible for the environment either. what do we do with the toxic melted down sludge left over ? Like everything, there is probably a way to handle it, but do we?

The problem is when it comes to electric cars, you just can't believe anything the zealots screams (I dont' mean poeple posting here when I say that, I mean the sheer insanity in the media). Electric car owners/lovers often come across as almost members of cults :)
Regardless of the success or failure of EV's - the recycling of Lithium batteries is going to be something that we have to sort. They are just in everything now. Try buying a bluetooth speaker that only works by being plugged into the power? Everything has a lithium battery in it.

And I'd like to think that all the contributors in this thread can at least agree on this - it's really hard to discuss anything about EV's without without wild opinions and crazy "facts" being thrown in. MSM is really not helping.

EV's are just cars with batteries. It's got four doors, four wheels. You get in it and you drive it. Their batteries at this point are lithium based and they probably will be for a while, but they might not always be. There will likely be better batteries with higher energy density. Hopefully they are also easily recycled.


https://youtu.be/2eIPHX-NpMM'si=vpUYgIG9lU-GnfiO

[Captain_Rightfoot]

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)

I guess the, for me at least, important part is the proprietary recycling techniques. We know how recycling an ICE works, it's metal after all and we have been doing that since the -drumroll- iron age! Lead acid batteries are also the simplest of devices to recycle, from that perspective they are like the incandescent light bulb. Easy "sturdy" and near 100% recyclable, even by an idiot with a hammer.

I personally can't see how you can recycle, say, up to 98% (like lead acid figures) of a lithium battery with its complex chemical composition, other stuff like cobalt anodes and the construction of the damn things. I am not saying it is completely impossible but until I SEE them do it, from step 1 to the last I am sceptical about the projected numbers.

Regarding tax breaks, who really cares? nobody it seems. In my personal opinion subsidies of any kind should be illegal. It also suggested large parts of the (western?) world have been sponsoring the oil industry and all that comes with it for a long long time and perhaps even to this day (and I guess they will have to in the near future*) giving it the moniker "big oil" but it seems we learned nothing from that, at all. The only thing that has happened is that big oil is being replaced with "big green" lobbying to destroy other things and more importantly, more money out of our pockets (direct or indirect)

*Why do I think this? Allow me to elaborate. I suspect that the reverse of what is happening with the eletrical-"revolution" will happen to let's call it FuelVehicles. When/IF there are more EV's on the road in comparison to FV's it will no longer be (economically) sustainable to run a petrol station. The costs of all the regulations and what not are quite high and can only be recouped if you sell enough fuel. The same economies of scale are going to happen to the refining of fuel etc etc. This in turn means that in the regions/areas/applications where an EV just won't cut it an FV will have to do the job. In order to keep those people/machines moving it may become necessary for the government to put money into it in order for them not to grind to a halt. I wonder how loud the greenies are going to shout by that time.

-P

People need to calm their farm. There are lots of things that don't suit electrification, or that aren't worth changing etc. For example - people in rural Australia are likely to be relying on liquid fuels for a long time although I expect electrification will creep in. I'd like to think that my message has been pretty consistent. Let's not focus on the hard things and just start with the easy things that we have answers for now.

I agree there are going to be lots of changes. I looked at a new servo being put in the other day and wondered what the 10 year business plan was. None the less I personally can't see a time in the next 50 years where you won't be able to rock down to a shop of some sort and buy liquid fuel. You'll know we are getting towards the end when there aren't pumps and it comes in cans. Back to the future!

What does interest me is how we will handle things as we use less oil. As we know every barrel of oil has a relatively fixed breakdown of refined products. What if we stop burning petrol and really only use heavier fuels like aviation and diesel? What do we do with the petrol? What if the total demand for liquid fuels decreases but the requirement for other fractions continues? Perhaps our future might be very very cheap petrol and diesel.

[NavyDiver]

Good Luck!

Id be surprised if it gets 200km with a Boat on back - with a tailwind, downhill

Test drive - MEH - no tow bar information at all from dealer and they have been selling them for about a year now.
No way I'll be the crash test dummy for how much range reduction occurs.

The dealer who came with me did mention 550 ish is the real or likely max range rather than the silly some how legally published claims [biggrin] Thats not just a EV issue of course. "BYD claims a 650km NEDC range, which is mildly preposterous, so let’s start with the more realistic 570km WLTP figure"[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Its heavy compared to my MG4. May be an option for some. Max charge rate is 150kWh and the regenerative braking is very light.

[DoubleChevron]

Regardless of the success or failure of EV's - the recycling of Lithium batteries is going to be something that we have to sort. They are just in everything now. Try buying a bluetooth speaker that only works by being plugged into the power? Everything has a lithium battery in it.

And I'd like to think that all the contributors in this thread can at least agree on this - it's really hard to discuss anything about EV's without without wild opinions and crazy "facts" being thrown in. MSM is really not helping.

EV's are just cars with batteries. It's got four doors, four wheels. You get in it and you drive it. Their batteries at this point are lithium based and they probably will be for a while, but they might not always be. There will likely be better batteries with higher energy density. Hopefully they are also easily recycled.


https://youtu.be/2eIPHX-NpMM'si=vpUYgIG9lU-GnfiO

Yes definitely. The problem with an electric car is the sheer size of the battery. A drill battery that fails and torches off is one thing, a house or car battery is just another universe of hurt. They really have changed our world and are remarkable things. Have a look at Ecigaretes if you want a suprise. the damn things have lithium batteries in them :o ..... how many garbage trucks are they going to torch off when the battery electronics get wet!

[DoubleChevron]

People need to calm their farm. There are lots of things that don't suit electrification, or that aren't worth changing etc. For example - people in rural Australia are likely to be relying on liquid fuels for a long time although I expect electrification will creep in. I'd like to think that my message has been pretty consistent. Let's not focus on the hard things and just start with the easy things that we have answers for now.

I agree there are going to be lots of changes. I looked at a new servo being put in the other day and wondered what the 10 year business plan was. None the less I personally can't see a time in the next 50 years where you won't be able to rock down to a shop of some sort and buy liquid fuel. You'll know we are getting towards the end when there aren't pumps and it comes in cans. Back to the future!

What does interest me is how we will handle things as we use less oil. As we know every barrel of oil has a relatively fixed breakdown of refined products. What if we stop burning petrol and really only use heavier fuels like aviation and diesel? What do we do with the petrol? What if the total demand for liquid fuels decreases but the requirement for other fractions continues? Perhaps our future might be very very cheap petrol and diesel.

I'd bet my life savings .... everything I own that we are still using petrol/diesel in 50 years time. sure we might have a small percentage of cars that are electric. But all of transport, aeroplanes, trains, trucks, busses, shipping, heating .... well everything, even the cloths on your back are made from oil products. I agree though, it will be very interesting to see what the greeny nutters try to force on us next. Maybe it will even be something that is actually reasonable, if so, people will just do it without mandates and government intervension :)

[NavyDiver]

I'd bet my life savings .... everything I own that we are still using petrol/diesel in 50 years time. sure we might have a small percentage of cars that are electric. But all of transport, aeroplanes, trains, trucks, busses, shipping, heating .... well everything, even the cloths on your back are made from oil products. I agree though, it will be very interesting to see what the greeny nutters try to force on us next. Maybe it will even be something that is actually reasonable, if so, people will just do it without mandates and government intervension :)

More than a few might have thought that about horses?[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Fully agree "actually reasonable" is the only reason to have anything.

Interesting watching trends. "The impacts of the government’s incoming efficiency regulations could reach the secondary car market, as buyers seek out used cars instead. The secondary effects of the New Vehicle Efficiency Standard (NVES) – the forthcoming laws designed to improve the fuel economy and reduce tailpipe emissions of new cars – are expected to be felt in the used-car market in the coming years.

Industry experts claim the NVES will quash the new-car market by as much as 19 per cent, significantly increasing demand – and potentially prices – for used cars as buyers look to side-step the new regulations.
In a presentation at the Australian Automotive Dealers Association’s (AADA) annual conference, industry analysts from company BDO Automotive said the NVES will heavily impact the profitability of dealerships – with the secondary car market one of the only beneficiaries.
However, the news is unlikely to be good for consumers, who are already facing record-high cost-of-living expenses – with transport costs accounting for 17 per cent of household budgets (https://www.drive.com.au/news/household-transport-costs-skyrocketed-in-2023/), according to the Australian Automobile Association (AAA).
Industry analysts told a packed conference of dealership representatives from across the country the NVES was expected to lead to an initial spike in used-car sales with supply likely to become a challenge “as trade-in opportunities decline”.

The news comes after the AADA published figures showing used-car sales had already increased by 16 per cent in the first half of 2024.
With the NVES set to come into effect on 1 January 2024, the new-car industry is bracing for two years of turmoil before the market settles.
The post Car industry bracing for spike in used-car demand following emissions laws (https://www.drive.com.au/news/car-industry-bracing-for-spike-in-used-car-demand-following-emissions-laws/) appeared first on Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/)."

Personally, I'll try to never use a petrol lawn mower again. The electric one is quiet. doesn't make me stink of exhaust fumes and starts every time with no swearing[biggrin]

Each to their own I say

[Tins]

Have a look at Ecigaretes if you want a suprise. the damn things have lithium batteries in them :o

Great source of project cells.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I'd bet my life savings .... everything I own that we are still using petrol/diesel in 50 years time. sure we might have a small percentage of cars that are electric. But all of transport, aeroplanes, trains, trucks, busses, shipping, heating .... well everything, even the cloths on your back are made from oil products. I agree though, it will be very interesting to see what the greeny nutters try to force on us next. Maybe it will even be something that is actually reasonable, if so, people will just do it without mandates and government intervension :)

We agree. I think you'll see electrification seep in around the edges. It won't do everything but it will be widespread.

I know I'm not an early adopter, but 12 months of owning an ev. It's just a car with a battery. You get in it. you drive it. It's comfortable and space efficient. For us every few days we plug it in and give the battery a tickle up. It's very cheap to run and maintain (so far). In years to come they will be cheap to buy.

I really do think that eventually people will calm TF down and look at this and realise that they can save a motza by just having one of the family cars as an EV. Likewise, whenever I roll into a rural town I'm often amazed by the prevalence of older sedans and wagons. Indeed there are probably less 4x4's then there are in my street in the big city perversely. Once people get accustomed to EV's and realise the MSM hysteria is just that.. it will just happen. Not nearly as many people need giant SUV's that can tow a 22 foot van around the country as are buying them presently.

Likewise, when there are batteries to recycle I'm confident we'll work it out. Unlike small electronics where lithium batteries mostly end up in general rubbish.. the size of an EV battery will make it worthwhile.

[DoubleChevron]

We agree. I think you'll see electrification seep in around the edges. It won't do everything but it will be widespread.

I know I'm not an early adopter, but 12 months of owning an ev. It's just a car with a battery. You get in it. you drive it. It's comfortable and space efficient. For us every few days we plug it in and give the battery a tickle up. It's very cheap to run and maintain (so far). In years to come they will be cheap to buy.

I really do think that eventually people will calm TF down and look at this and realise that they can save a motza by just having one of the family cars as an EV. Likewise, whenever I roll into a rural town I'm often amazed by the prevalence of older sedans and wagons. Indeed there are probably less 4x4's then there are in my street in the big city perversely. Once people get accustomed to EV's and realise the MSM hysteria is just that.. it will just happen. Not nearly as many people need giant SUV's that can tow a 22 foot van around the country as are buying them presently.

Likewise, when there are batteries to recycle I'm confident we'll work it out. Unlike small electronics where lithium batteries mostly end up in general rubbish.. the size of an EV battery will make it worthwhile.

I think its extraordinarily unlikely the average family car will be an EV. The 2nd/wifes cars. Now that is a possibility. Guess why twin cab utes are so prevalent. You can carry stuff, you can tow stuff ... you can tow 300+km and refill in 5 minutes ... an electric car cannot do any of this. if I had an electric car here, it would probably get parked with all the wrecks over under the pine trees. What the hell would I want with it? It can't tow my car trailer, can't tow the caravan, can't be used on anything other than perfect sealed roads, can't carry a decent load, can't teach my kids to drive in it.... It would be a pointless fire risk to have around the house. I sure as hell would never park it near the house or shed, so how could I even charge the useless thing?

Look at this from this point of view, I go out and buy a stupidly expnesive battery ride on mower from bunnings. Year 1 -> 3 it might cut all the grass ... by year 5 it takes me 3 days to cut the grass if its long. By year six I'm looking at thousands of dollars worth of batteries to "save the environment and me money"....... Or I could just keep using my perfect running probably 30 year old AMC ride on mower that was made in bendigo .... and my ****ty old worn out tractor (made in geelong) that has a million hours on it .... but still always starts and always cuts the yard no problems. It costs me maybe $100 a year in diesel and maybe $150 every 5 years for a start battery.

the battery crap is just lunacy. It would make sense if I lived on a postage stamp in town and had 15 blades of grass to cut. Especially if I owned battery tools that shared the battery.

I find even the electric lawn mower idea interesting. Its another thing I'd just throw under the pine trees in the scrap pile and never look at again. However, I could give it to my father and it would be magic for the tiny bit of grass they have :)

[V8Ian]

All those arguments, albeit with a slightly different slant, would have been bandied around, about a century and a quarter ago.
"You can only get fuel when the drugstore is open."
"You can't go to church without arriving stinky and filthy."
"You can't get home without at least one breakdown."
I don't see an electric car in my future, but I do see electric as the future. There were only so many dinosaurs, ergo dinosaur juice is a finite commodity.
Nominate your ​alternative.

[DoubleChevron]

All those arguments, albeit with a slightly different slant, would have been bandied around, about a century and a quarter ago.
"You can only get fuel when the drugstore is open."
"You can't go to church without arriving stinky and filthy."
"You can't get home without at least one breakdown."
I don't see an electric car in my future, but I do see electric as the future. There were only so many dinosaurs, ergo dinosaur juice is a finite commodity.
Nominate your ​alternative.

I don't see it as the future. I see it as a stumbling block to the future in its current guise. Its unlikely we will ever run out of dino juice IMO. I'm pretty sure lack of population ... and severe lack of younger people will be the issue in 30 years, not the climate.

It sure it going to be interesting to see :)

by the way, that really annoying prat on youtube posted a really good video on C02 and combustion engines today. the auto expert or whatever he calls himself. I certainly never understood that 1kg of fuel will create 3kgs of C02 when burnt. Just as well we don't have to pay for the air (as well as the petrol) we burn. No ... whatever you do, don't suggest that to the nutty green movement :eek:

[V8Ian]

I don't see it as the future. I see it as a stumbling block to the future in its current guise. Its unlikely we will ever run out of dino juice IMO. I'm pretty sure lack of population ... and severe lack of younger people will be the issue in 30 years, not the climate.

It sure it going to be interesting to see :)

by the way, that really annoying prat on youtube posted a really good video on C02 and combustion engines today. the auto expert or whatever he calls himself. I certainly never understood that 1kg of fuel will create 3kgs of C02 when burnt. Just as well we don't have to pay for the air (as well as the petrol) we burn. No ... whatever you do, don't suggest that to the nutty green movement :eek:
Not hard to believe at all, considering exploration, extraction, transportation, refining, transport of the final product and power and energy to provide all infrastructure from exploration to retail outlets.

[Tins]

All for balance mate and thanks for the vid :)



Yeah. I'm still chuckling about that. Cherry picking can demonstrate many things. Balance is not one of them.

[DoubleChevron]

Not hard to believe at all, considering exploration, extraction, transportation, refining, transport of the final product and power and energy to provide all infrastructure from exploration to retail outlets.

That isn't why, when you burn the petrol, the oxygen atoms get combined with the fuel atoms ... creating 3kg of C02 from 1 kg of fuel (remember all the air the motor has sucked in as well, that weighs quite a bit). if you can tolerate him for an entire video, he is quite good at explaining stuff.

[prelude]

I too want to believe we will still be using petrol 50 years from now and although I do believe we will in certain applications, in my puny little country they are rolling EV's out like it's nothing and we really don't have much need for petrol since remote here is a contradiction in terms. So the chances of me getting petrol in 50 years is I think much slimmer? Not really doom thinking but just an observation. And perhaps yes, we will be left with cheap petrol because of the refinement process but I guess we will still do what we did in the past, everything we don't need gets dumped into the heavy oil for sea going ships. That's one of those "funny" things: diesel with less sulfur, the whole world had its panties up in a bunch about getting rid of that but it's not like we stored the sulfur somewhere or found a different use for it all of a sudden. We just dumped it in third world diesels and in heavy ship oil and it got burned anyway.

Perhaps we can fix the lithium recycling challenge, perhaps it won't be economically feasible and maybe we need to dig even deeper in the pocket again at some point.

My biggest problem is that I would think that we have learned from the ICE years regarding the environment, recycling and what not and indeed the car part of the EV we got under control I guess but not as much in the EV space. We "excuse" them since they don't do the CO2's. What surprises me is that we simply keep on putting out new tech and figure that we will find a way to deal with it later. A good development, be it too late, has been that some of our provinces have started to demand from whomever wants to build a windmill for power has to commit to removing it, completely, after it's done. Pretty sure that they'll find away around that, but that at least is something.

Finally, I may have said it before but an EV is not just a car with batteries. I don't find them appealing and they do not drive to my liking but then again I am a car(ICE) enthousiast. Let James May explain it for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQY-VeA87cM (around 3 minutes though the entire thing is interesting)
Then again, most people are not really car enthousiasts and will like em just fine.

-P

[Tins]

We "excuse" them since they don't do the CO2's. What surprises me is that we simply keep on putting out new tech and figure that we will find a way to deal with it later.

"EVs don't do CO2" is one of the greatest lies ever told.

[PhilipA]

Are you aware that horses were used well into the 1940-and 50s in areas that for many reasons that cars/trucks were impractical.
The German army used over 1 million horses in WW2 .
Horses were used in agriculture up to the 1950s in many areas of agriculture and even to deliver milk into AFAIR the 70s . I can still recall the "proppo" man in Brisbane when I was a kid.
They were used to dig dams and delve agriculture canals into the 50s and maybe later.
On the other hand ICE vehicles took over where they had a demonstrable advantage. My Father and his family ran a bus service over the Burringbar range in the 20s. Horses would have been too slow and had much difficulty with the mountains.
In London in the early 20s the authorities had great difficulty removing the horse excrement from the streets so cars took over there quite early.
The point is that where there was a demonstrable advantage ICE took over without subsidies or Government dictat.
Currently there is no advantage for EV over ICE if government taxes on ICE were removed and EV subsidies removed. In UK it is more expensive to use an EV on a long trip using public chargers than it is to drive an ICE car. The same has to happen here eventually.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Are you aware that horses were used well into the 1940-and 50s in areas that for many reasons that cars/trucks were impractical.
The German army used over 1 million horses in WW2 .
Horses were used in agriculture up to the 1950s in many areas of agriculture and even to deliver milk into AFAIR the 70s . I can still recall the "proppo" man in Brisbane when I was a kid.
They were used to dig dams and delve agriculture canals into the 50s and maybe later.
On the other hand ICE vehicles took over where they had a demonstrable advantage. My Father and his family ran a bus service over the Burringbar range in the 20s. Horses would have been too slow and had much difficulty with the mountains.
In London in the early 20s the authorities had great difficulty removing the horse excrement from the streets so cars took over there quite early.
The point is that where there was a demonstrable advantage ICE took over without subsidies or Government dictat.
Currently there is no advantage for EV over ICE if government taxes on ICE were removed and EV subsidies removed. In UK it is more expensive to use an EV on a long trip using public chargers than it is to drive an ICE car. The same has to happen here eventually.
Regards PhilipA
Spot on. All human progress happened without coercion. Uptake of all things such as the power look, mechanical printing press and mobile phone took place as people realised their advantages. The ICE car was no different.

[V8Ian]

My Father and his family ran a bus service over the Burringbar range in the 20s.

RESPECT, sixty years of progress later, that piece of road put the fear of God into me, almost daily.

[spudfan]

Over here the government makes a lot of money from the motorist. Fuel is heavily taxed. It is an easy tax to collect. There seems to be bit of a quandry regarding electric vehicles. The more there are the less petrol/diesel is sold so the government collects less fuel duty. So while pushing the EV agenda there is a realisation that they will need to correct the loss of revenue from petrol/diesel. There had been ideas raised about taxing vehicles on their weight.
The people who buy the electric cars are used to getting a new vehicle subsidised by everyone else and cheap charging if done at home. If the petrol and diesel mode of transport goes the way the government is pushing it, the electric vehicle owners will have to pay a lot more to make up the short fall. We will see how sales hold up then.
This will make you laugh at the short sightedness of government thinking.

"Tanaiste says it's 'only a matter of time' before all Irish tractors are electric" (Tanaiste is our second in command)
Tanaiste says it's 'only a matter of time' before all Irish tractors are electric - Irish Mirror Online (https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/tanaiste-all-tractors-electric-ireland-33284551)
There are agricultural contractors here and certain times of the year they work 24 hours a day. Drivers change and a bowser comes to fill the tractor. They move on to the next job until the busy cycle ends. An electric tractor, especially a high horse power one would not be suitable for this. The down time for charging would cut into working hours. Heavy work would drain the battery quickly.
I have seen large tractors ploughing on damp ground and they were working hard. I cannot see an electric tractor being able to do this for hours on end. A small electric tractor might be good for small part time operations but not for heavy farm work. Also I do not see where you could put a lot of battaries on a tractor.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I think its extraordinarily unlikely the average family car will be an EV. The 2nd/wifes cars. Now that is a possibility. Guess why twin cab utes are so prevalent. You can carry stuff, you can tow stuff ... you can tow 300+km and refill in 5 minutes ... an electric car cannot do any of this. if I had an electric car here, it would probably get parked with all the wrecks over under the pine trees. What the hell would I want with it? It can't tow my car trailer, can't tow the caravan, can't be used on anything other than perfect sealed roads, can't carry a decent load, can't teach my kids to drive in it.... It would be a pointless fire risk to have around the house. I sure as hell would never park it near the house or shed, so how could I even charge the useless thing?

Look at this from this point of view, I go out and buy a stupidly expnesive battery ride on mower from bunnings. Year 1 -> 3 it might cut all the grass ... by year 5 it takes me 3 days to cut the grass if its long. By year six I'm looking at thousands of dollars worth of batteries to "save the environment and me money"....... Or I could just keep using my perfect running probably 30 year old AMC ride on mower that was made in bendigo .... and my ****ty old worn out tractor (made in geelong) that has a million hours on it .... but still always starts and always cuts the yard no problems. It costs me maybe $100 a year in diesel and maybe $150 every 5 years for a start battery.

the battery crap is just lunacy. It would make sense if I lived on a postage stamp in town and had 15 blades of grass to cut. Especially if I owned battery tools that shared the battery.

I find even the electric lawn mower idea interesting. Its another thing I'd just throw under the pine trees in the scrap pile and never look at again. However, I could give it to my father and it would be magic for the tiny bit of grass they have :)
I cannot comment on the efficacy of electric lawn mowers. I'm still rocking my 25 YO honda.

Again and again my argument is not that EV's can replace the aussie love of utes. At this point they still can't be replaced by an EV. My point again and again is from the point of view of a city dweller. Why does every car in a family need to be an EV? Why do we need 4 double cab utes per family.?

[DoubleChevron]

I cannot comment on the efficacy of electric lawn mowers. I'm still rocking my 25 YO honda.

Again and again my argument is not that EV's can replace the aussie love of utes. At this point they still can't be replaced by an EV. My point again and again is from the point of view of a city dweller. Why does every car in a family need to be an EV? Why do we need 4 double cab utes per family.?

4 twin cab utes per family? I have never seen this. Most families have two cars. the "big" car that is drive by whoever does the least miles and the small efficient car. Who owns four twin cab utes? I've never heard of such a thing.

You still don't get it, the ev can NEVER replace a twin cab ute. as soon as you try to tow or carry anything they are just a laughing stock. I guess there is that electric car in new zealand that managed to to a little boat to the local boat ramp and back (we will ignore the fact it burst into flames and burnt the house down when it got home).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBHFHKmRwuA

like i said, I have nothing against electric cars, but we need to be sensible. they can and only will work for the small minority (local driving, offstreet parking, etc).

[Captain_Rightfoot]

4 twin cab utes per family? I have never seen this. Most families have two cars. the "big" car that is drive by whoever does the least miles and the small efficient car. Who owns four twin cab utes? I've never heard of such a thing.

You still don't get it, the ev can NEVER replace a twin cab ute. as soon as you try to tow or carry anything they are just a laughing stock. I guess there is that electric car in new zealand that managed to to a little boat to the local boat ramp and back (we will ignore the fact it burst into flames and burnt the house down when it got home).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBHFHKmRwuA

like i said, I have nothing against electric cars, but we need to be sensible. they can and only will work for the small minority (local driving, offstreet parking, etc).
Interesting. I live only a few K's from the Brisbane CBD. For the life of me I can't get this to load as a photo. You should be able click on the link below.

This photo is a few houses from me up the street. The cars from right to left. Nissan Tida Daughter. Toyota Hilux son. Mazda BT50 ute thing (dad). Toyota Hilux son (still on Ls). Mitsubishi Prado Wife. No I've never seen any evidence that any of them have been off road. No they only own a box trailer which is also stored on street.

House next to me. Raptor (dad). Mum has a jeep thingy.

House across the road. Dad and two boys, Three 4x4.

And so it goes. All up and down my street and around the suburb. It's easy to see because most houses are too low to fit a full 4x4 in. I'm sorry.. you can't convince me that EVERYONE needs a 4x4/SUV.

190833

https://photos.app.goo.gl/d8GBxK12WiY8A2BU6
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMxXrC1GTq0M_6yZR9OLrEID5Y1e7nkgWTfzJv3TMwqzA AKtiXd_-x2ruQ9PQLWk-UAu8RGsX__jHIskv7f-g_I_xA54hdOehP9nAPxBZK3sYHDwuv9PZC4hgz_v1e568NRgPU LJkPbRPYlO-oGIBqZ=w2100-h1575-s-no?authuser=0

[PhilipA]

I have to say I loved my Ryobi electric mower. It weighed almost nothing and I could lift it down my 5 steps from the back yard to the front with one hand. I had 2 5Ah batteries and it would juuust do the job. My trusty old Rover weighed about 30Kg and is still going strong for the bloke I gave it to. Now in the retirement village no need for a mower.

I changed all my air tools for Ryobi and the Ryobi rattle gun is stronger than my old air rattle gun. Currently I have Ryobi whipper snipper, blower, drill, rattle gun, grinder, hand vacuum and air pump.( and a rattle gun in the caravan to lower the legs).

At present I have a Ford Everest 3.2 as it tows the van well, and my wife has a Honda Jazz. An EV is not under consideration for even the second car as my wife needs to go to golf courses which can be up to 200-250Km away and no guarantee that she could recharge. Anyway we do not have the money for even a Nissan Leaf with 80km range.LOL. Particularly now I doubt many median income people could afford a $30K second car.
My daughter would like a dual cab ute but no money with house repayments up thousands a month. They have a Kia Sportage and a 2013 Jazz and I think this is pretty typical although her and husband's income is way above median.
I doubt ANY family has 4 twin cab utes although I recognise this is hyperbole or Hyper -bowl as Julia would say.
The point is I am not against electrification in the instances that it is an advance on the old ways eg petrol mowers and corded or air tools but EVs not yet if ever..
Regards PhilipA
PS love my 2 Lifepo4 batteries to run my car fridge and caravan electrics and my solar panels to charge when no grid.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Finally, I may have said it before but an EV is not just a car with batteries. I don't find them appealing and they do not drive to my liking but then again I am a car(ICE) enthousiast. Let James May explain it for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQY-VeA87cM (around 3 minutes though the entire thing is interesting)
Then again, most people are not really car enthousiasts and will like em just fine.

-P

FFS. I have a Defender, and a lotus. Can't I just have one car that's just a car for driving around in? Do I need to be "enthusiastic" about my car all the time?

[Captain_Rightfoot]

More than a few might have thought that about horses?[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle] Fully agree "actually reasonable" is the only reason to have anything.

Interesting watching trends. "The impacts of the government’s incoming efficiency regulations could reach the secondary car market, as buyers seek out used cars instead. The secondary effects of the New Vehicle Efficiency Standard (NVES) – the forthcoming laws designed to improve the fuel economy and reduce tailpipe emissions of new cars – are expected to be felt in the used-car market in the coming years.

Industry experts claim the NVES will quash the new-car market by as much as 19 per cent, significantly increasing demand – and potentially prices – for used cars as buyers look to side-step the new regulations.
In a presentation at the Australian Automotive Dealers Association’s (AADA) annual conference, industry analysts from company BDO Automotive said the NVES will heavily impact the profitability of dealerships – with the secondary car market one of the only beneficiaries.
However, the news is unlikely to be good for consumers, who are already facing record-high cost-of-living expenses – with transport costs accounting for 17 per cent of household budgets (https://www.drive.com.au/news/household-transport-costs-skyrocketed-in-2023/), according to the Australian Automobile Association (AAA).
Industry analysts told a packed conference of dealership representatives from across the country the NVES was expected to lead to an initial spike in used-car sales with supply likely to become a challenge “as trade-in opportunities decline”.

The news comes after the AADA published figures showing used-car sales had already increased by 16 per cent in the first half of 2024.
With the NVES set to come into effect on 1 January 2024, the new-car industry is bracing for two years of turmoil before the market settles.
The post Car industry bracing for spike in used-car demand following emissions laws (https://www.drive.com.au/news/car-industry-bracing-for-spike-in-used-car-demand-following-emissions-laws/) appeared first on Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/)."

Personally, I'll try to never use a petrol lawn mower again. The electric one is quiet. doesn't make me stink of exhaust fumes and starts every time with no swearing[biggrin]

Each to their own I say
The car industry has waaay bigger problems than NVES.

The manufacturers who sell cars in Australia have ignored "normal" cars and have been full on milking the 4x4/SUV/UTE class of car. That's where the mooolah is. And now that's under threat.

I've said before and I'll say again. Despite having no car industry I can see a juncture in the near future when our car importers will be begging for protection from the chinese.

I'm not a fan of PHEV. I personally think they are the worst of both worlds. All the servicing and reliability issues of ICE combined with the battery issues of EV's because the small battery gets snotted every run if used correctly. And if people just fill them up with fuel they don't get the environmental because they are heavier than a normal ICE vehicle. Plus poor packaging because you've got to fit two drivetrains in there. I concede that there are use cases for them where they make sense, but not nearly as many as we think.

None the less. Pray for Toyota and Ford. If it's priced as aggressively as everything else BYD has done it will be on.


https://youtu.be/8NXSd2BHXEA'si=1MmrDPOhhUtFQGuZ

[DoubleChevron]

Interesting. I live only a few K's from the Brisbane CBD. For the life of me I can't get this to load as a photo. You should be able click on the link below.

This photo is a few houses from me up the street. The cars from right to left. Nissan Tida Daughter. Toyota Hilux son. Mazda BT50 ute thing (dad). Toyota Hilux son (still on Ls). Mitsubishi Prado Wife. No I've never seen any evidence that any of them have been off road. No they only own a box trailer which is also stored on street.

House next to me. Raptor (dad). Mum has a jeep thingy.

House across the road. Dad and two boys, Three 4x4.

And so it goes. All up and down my street and around the suburb. It's easy to see because most houses are too low to fit a full 4x4 in. I'm sorry.. you can't convince me that EVERYONE needs a 4x4/SUV.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/d8GBxK12WiY8A2BU6
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczMxXrC1GTq0M_6yZR9OLrEID5Y1e7nkgWTfzJv3TMwqzA AKtiXd_-x2ruQ9PQLWk-UAu8RGsX__jHIskv7f-g_I_xA54hdOehP9nAPxBZK3sYHDwuv9PZC4hgz_v1e568NRgPU LJkPbRPYlO-oGIBqZ=w2100-h1575-s-no?authuser=0

Oh I get it, yes everyone also has lots of ****ty old car on club permits and car wrecks around the yard. They drove past my house once, so obviously this is what everyone has. Why does he need all those old cars ... someone should make him get rid of them all and get an electric car "because its good for the environment". So you found one house somewhere where a bunch of 4wd enthusiests live........ Let me guess, builders? Is there tradie trailers in the yard too. Are the sons apprentices somewhere in the building trade?

I agree, they are terrible people, lets force them to get rid of those evil twin cab utes an buy an electric car.

[Tins]

Oh I get it, yes everyone also has lots of ****ty old car on club permits and car wrecks around the yard. They drove past my house once, so obviously this is what everyone has. Why does he need all those old cars ... someone should make him get rid of them all and get an electric car "because its good for the environment". So you found one house somewhere where a bunch of 4wd enthusiests live........ Let me guess, builders? Is there tradie trailers in the yard too. Are the sons apprentices somewhere in the building trade?

I agree, they are terrible people, lets force them to get rid of those evil twin cab utes an buy an electric car.

It could also be argued that someone who lives so close to a CBD has no need of a Defender, but hey, the rules don't apply equally, right?

I'm alright, Jack.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It could also be argued that someone who lives so close to a CBD has no need of a Defender, but hey, the rules don't apply equally, right?

I'm alright, Jack.

Yeah right. I just had a look at the book. 19-12-23 I put fuel in. 176569. Today 177788k. So just a smidge over 1000k in nearly 7 months. Some of those k's was a short trip where we didn't use the EV because the service place wants me to do a thousand on the new diff before changing the oil. 1000k in 7 months. Why? Because I ride my bike most places or if I have to drive I take the EV.

And that is why this thread is so symptomatic of the mess we're in.

I care about the environment BUT...

I'm not against EV's BUT...

God help you if you question the australian new found love of utes!

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Oh I get it, yes everyone also has lots of ****ty old car on club permits and car wrecks around the yard. They drove past my house once, so obviously this is what everyone has. Why does he need all those old cars ... someone should make him get rid of them all and get an electric car "because its good for the environment". So you found one house somewhere where a bunch of 4wd enthusiests live........ Let me guess, builders? Is there tradie trailers in the yard too. Are the sons apprentices somewhere in the building trade?

I agree, they are terrible people, lets force them to get rid of those evil twin cab utes an buy an electric car.

And no they are not builders. Or if they are they are the type that never have any tools or equipment, or building supplies in the ute. Trays clean and unsullied by work. No they don't have builders trailers.

[gromit]

I think you should be able to buy a car that suits your needs but a lot of people make a purchasing decision based on the image they want to project.

TV & Film stars being seen in EV's but having a hummer in the garage as well.
People buying EV's because they 'think' they are saving the planet.
People buying utes because.......

Here in VIC I bet that most EV's are charged using brown coal but the people driving them seem to think they are 'green'. Their exhaust pipe is down the Yallourn Valley !
Governments around the World seem to be pushing towards EV's yet in many cases the charging infrastructure isn't available. I read something recently where it was suggested that EV's will become like phones. You'll buy one on a plan then return it and replace it with a new one....... hmmmm not really that environmentally friendly.
Yes you can recycle them but most IC vehicles would have a longer life before they are recycled.

A couple of the major car companies held back with EV's (possibly they didn't see a long term future in them) but this came back to bite them as all the sheep purchased EV's. They have had to do an about turn as they lost market share.

I like the concept of instant power & torque plus regenerative braking with an EV but that's where it ends.
Battery production is a dirty business as I'm sure recycling is also. Add to this what appears to be massive depreciation (I'm not actively watching the market) and I don't see the EV having a long term future.

Colin

Yes, I do still think the World is flat.

[V8Ian]

Colin

Yes, I do still think the World is flat.
I don't think the earth is, but sooner or later the EV batteries will be, for various reasons, from infrastructure failure to optimism of range.

[prelude]

Yeah right. I just had a look at the book. 19-12-23 I put fuel in. 176569. Today 177788k. So just a smidge over 1000k in nearly 7 months. Some of those k's was a short trip where we didn't use the EV because the service place wants me to do a thousand on the new diff before changing the oil. 1000k in 7 months. Why? Because I ride my bike most places or if I have to drive I take the EV.

And that is why this thread is so symptomatic of the mess we're in.

I care about the environment BUT...

I'm not against EV's BUT...

God help you if you question the australian new found love of utes!

Well, you know. This is nothing new actually. It used to be that the sedan's were all the rage, then came the station wagen, that became the people mover, crossovers popped up, SUV's are now the rage next will beeeee the horse again?

Does it REALLY matter? It's a CHOICE and that is what this in the end is all about. People vote with their wallet; they want an SUV or UTE and they buy them, forcing manufacturers to play ball. That is how the free market economy is supposed to work.

I can kinda understand your frustration, I used to be similarly annoyed by the trends a few decades ago but what's the point mate :) If you can afford the SUV, including it's higher running costs I don't see the problem. In most cases the EV is seemingly cheaper to run, for now, if we are to believe this thread and other experiences. Still, people choose to buy something more expensive. Isn't that indication enough as to how badly they want it? And should that not be their God given right? I mean you can buy kings gear OR you can buy decent stuff, that is also a choice...

The u(dis)topian future of EV's will soon-ish be upon us anyway. When and if people still like utes, they'll buy that ugly rivian or perhaps the even more god awful cybertruck. Would you have as much of a problem with them as well? (fair and honest question, not to put you on the spot!)

And finally still, even utes and SUV's are getting cleaner in absolute numbers. Look at the most sold of them all, toyota killed the V8 (sadly for enthousiasts) and you can now only get a V6 or even the 4 banger lawnmower engine in the 70 series.

I will however agree with you that protection from the Chinese will and even should be coming. Not because they are EV's but just because sponsoring the CCP the way we have been for decades now has turned out to be quite a big mistake, if you ask me.

-P

[350RRC]

.........................

Here in VIC I bet that most EV's are charged using brown coal but the people driving them seem to think they are 'green'. Their exhaust pipe is down the Yallourn Valley ......................


Colin

Yes, I do still think the World is flat.

It took a while to get my head around it, but there are less CO2 emissions per km travelled with an EV charged by coal powered generation than a similar size & weight petrol or diesel vehicle.

Homestar explained it on here many moons ago.

DL

[austastar]

Hi,
Ditto with a locomotive electric drive powered by a diesel engine running a generator.
Both the ICE and the coal powered steam turbine can run at optimum speed/load for the power needed.
Cheers

[NavyDiver]

Mount Disappointment snow trip today. It was disappointing as expectedhttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t4f/1/16/1f601.png No https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t2e/1/16/2744.pnghttps://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t4f/1/16/1f601.png At 800m above sea level it was just a bit low. Hail like rain would have been snow just that bit higher[thumbsupbig]

Interesting not on wet and slippery dirt roads and the Mg4s rear wheel traction and anti slip which was surprisingly good.
Missed my prior Disco just once and a wash out not for anything without high clearance. I Found 'Alt route one' and got to the part of the road closed seasonally for 4wd or not[biggrin]

Range wise the 80ish % Start never bothered me. Lunch at King Lake pub could have been missed. Food was a bit of a misfire in my view! I'll recharge via Solar tomorrow perhaps[bigrolf]

[gromit]

It took a while to get my head around it, but there less CO2 emissions per km travelled with an EV charged by coal powered generation than a similar size & weight petrol or diesel vehicle.

Homestar explained it on here many moons ago.

DL

But apparently more CO2 produced making an EV than an IC powered vehicle.
I wonder where the crossover point is ?


Colin

[DiscoDB]

But apparently more CO2 produced making an EV than an IC powered vehicle.
I wonder where the crossover point is ?


Colin

It is very much country specific as it depends on the amount of renewables (or Nuclear) used for power generation.

Somewhere like Norway the crossover point is as little as 20,000kms whilst in the US or some parts of Europe it would be double this at more like 40,000kms.

If using the global average energy mix, then it is between 60,000kms to 80,000kms and depends on where the EV and ICE was manufactured.

China which currently has a much higher use of coal can be over 100,000kms. This will change as China is investing more than any other country in renewables.

As the reliance on fossil fuels for power generation drops, the crossover point also comes down.

A big reduction will be when the mandates in Europe to recycle EV batteries starts to kick in to full effect. This will bring total emissions to manufacture a new EV similar to that of an ICE, bringing down the crossover point even sooner.

[350RRC]

Hi,
Ditto with a locomotive electric drive powered by a diesel engine running a generator.
Both the ICE and the coal powered steam turbine can run at optimum speed/load for the power needed.
Cheers

And that Audi 'hybrid' in the Dakar a couple of years ago.

[prelude]

didn't mazda recently bring out a hybrid with a wankel rotary engine? The reason being that it could run on a very specific RPM where the rotary would be efficient and also very compact. I like that kinda tech :)

-P

[austastar]

Hi,
Check out Edison electric log trucks for pure practical logic.

https://youtu.be/an6e2Lh9u58?feature=shared

Cheers

[NavyDiver]

Will it be solid? Can we swap for these?? Are almost all existing Fast (???) Chargers obsolete already or shortly? [thumbsupbig]



"Samsung SDI has just presented a groundbreaking advancement in battery technology for electric cars. During SNE Battery Day 2024 in Seoul, South Korea, Samsung unveiled a new solid-state battery that could transform the electric car market, as reported by The Elec (https://www.thelec.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=29222).
[B]Range and Charging Speed

The new Samsung battery for electric cars boasts an impressive energy density of around 500 Wh/kg, twice as much as the best lithium-ion batteries based on NCM chemistry."[biggrin]

PS possibly by 2027 for $$$$$$$$$$$ or 2030 for the normal people[bawl]

[V8Ian]

https://youtu.be/YNldCc7VUYk'si=qEuh8YzhnQKGhLdI

[bigwhistle]

[prelude]

Will it be solid? Can we swap for these?? Are almost all existing Fast (???) Chargers obsolete already or shortly? [thumbsupbig]



"Samsung SDI has just presented a groundbreaking advancement in battery technology for electric cars. During SNE Battery Day 2024 in Seoul, South Korea, Samsung unveiled a new solid-state battery that could transform the electric car market, as reported by The Elec (https://www.thelec.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=29222).
[B]Range and Charging Speed

The new Samsung battery for electric cars boasts an impressive energy density of around 500 Wh/kg, twice as much as the best lithium-ion batteries based on NCM chemistry."[biggrin]

PS possibly by 2027 for $$$$$$$$$$$ or 2030 for the normal people[bawl]

Orrrr will it be irrelevant? :) I believe all points have already been made in this rather long thread but lets go by every one of them briefly:


energy density: not even close to fuel
range: given the same weight in batteries the I guess twice the range, but likely less since they can finally make cars lighter (which should be higher priority).
charging speed: even faster charging requires even more bonkers infra that will most likely not be rolled out everywhere


And finally charging tech. Yes, if you want to charge even faster they will have become irrelevant. I can't imagine though that the battery tech will be so different that the current chargers can't handle them, after all you select a voltage for the battery and with so many cells you can make them close to the current tech.

I am more interested, forgive me, in the DOWNsides of solid state. Lithium was praised into the clouds but in the end it turned out it actually had downsides, go figure. 100% can be used! (but it's better if you use no more than 60% actually)

Anyway, where you DO get me excited is solid state batteries in my camper, my phone, laptop, ipad. If they really can deliver twice the power I certainly want them in there!

-P

[NavyDiver]

Orrrr will it be irrelevant? :) I believe all points have already been made in this rather long thread but lets go by every one of them briefly:


energy density: not even close to fuel
range: given the same weight in batteries the I guess twice the range, but likely less since they can finally make cars lighter (which should be higher priority).
charging speed: even faster charging requires even more bonkers infra that will most likely not be rolled out everywhere


And finally charging tech. Yes, if you want to charge even faster they will have become irrelevant. I can't imagine though that the battery tech will be so different that the current chargers can't handle them, after all you select a voltage for the battery and with so many cells you can make them close to the current tech.

I am more interested, forgive me, in the DOWNsides of solid state. Lithium was praised into the clouds but in the end it turned out it actually had downsides, go figure. 100% can be used! (but it's better if you use no more than 60% actually)

Anyway, where you DO get me excited is solid state batteries in my camper, my phone, laptop, ipad. If they really can deliver twice the power I certainly want them in there!

-P
Fully agree with several of your points especially "Charging speed: even faster charging requires even more bonkers infra that will most likely not be rolled out everywhere"

Until 'the greenwashing types' stop assuming its wind, solar and very short duration and very very expensive battery storage and start looking at the additional electricity required we are in a bit of a echo chamber.

The promises of Solid state are big! Prove is required as is the trillions of $$$$$$$$$$$ of power IF most of the C02 free power is to be put in place.

Had a very interring chat with several Navy officers yesterday about current and near-term ship building. While we have a great company here making some lighter style ferries and ships. (Austal) our ships and submarine building has been a long-term tragic comedy of errors and significant cost blow outs.

My thoughts the Korean offer to do things we cannot in Warship construction (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-07-12/south-korea-pushes-australia-on-aukus-and-cyber-cooperation/104086914?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)is exactly the same in the nuclear reactor area with Korea already building ships at an amazing rate that occurs nowhere else in the world and already having the Modula heavy Constuction set up for Small Nuclear reactors. I would love to see a quote from Korea for future ships, submarines and SMR or larger nuclear power construction :)

[PhilipA]

You will get a laugh from this one!
It is about Ukrainians making a bomb from a Toyota Mirai Hydrogen cylinder.
The reference starts at 2.29 if you don't want to watch the lot which also references using Tesla batteries for drones.
03 Aug: INCREDIBLE! Ukrainians Make Russians EVAPORATE WITH 200 KG OF HYDROGEN & PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxqAOs29jiE)
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

You will get a laugh from this one!
It is about Ukrainians making a bomb from a Toyota Mirai Hydrogen cylinder.
The reference starts at 2.29 if you don't want to watch the lot which also references using Tesla batteries for drones.
03 Aug: INCREDIBLE! Ukrainians Make Russians EVAPORATE WITH 200 KG OF HYDROGEN & PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxqAOs29jiE)
Regards PhilipA

Amazing Recyling effort. [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

Could it Be? " EV Rangie time[biggrin]Jaguar Land Rover trains thousands of electric car mechanics amid high repair costsTraining effort comes as carmaker prepares to launch first all-electric Range Rover"
yep 2025 !

<font size="7">
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gV6-d45wWk

[Saitch]

Aaah, yes. I can just picture V8Ian's rooftop tent on this...................or perhaps on an 'A' frame behind Pedro_The_Swift's bus.

I wonder if it comes with a tow bar? Incisor will have to up the size of AULRO tyre covers, which could possibly have an 'EV' warning symbol incorporated into the logo.

If 4x4s go electric, what will happen to the 'Straight Through Exhaust', turbo generated, dove call brigade?

Are 'P' platers allowed to drive these 0-100 in 3 seconds vehicles?

[PhilipA]

OK I now admit that I was not fully informed of an important distinction between different EVs.
I have been impressed and alarmed by the photos of self immolating EVs on various media.
However I did not realise until now that many EVs actually have LiFePO4 batteries and that includes the cheaper Teslas.
They are called LFP batteries when in EVs.
Most members probably realise that LFP batteries are much safer than Lion batteries as they generally do not spontaneously catch fire.
Here is a full list produced by a NZ site.
Which Cars Have LFP Batteries? (evdb.nz) (https://evdb.nz/ev-battery)
I now agree that bike and scooter batteries are much more dangerous than the average EV.
There is a horrifying video on the Cadogan site of a Chinese bloke getting into a lift with a bike battery which explodes and kills him in about 1-2 seconds. shudder!

Regards PhilipA

[DoubleChevron]

I can't wait to have absolutely nothing to do with a stupid electric range rover. Is there anything more dumb than a vehicle designed for towing and offroad use .... than using batteries to propel it ......[bighmmm]

[V8Ian]

Just for you 》 Kids Range Rover Electric Cars | Ride on Toys Kids (https://rideontoyskids.com.au/product-category/range-rover/) [bigrolf]

[Tins]

Interesting real(ish) world test of a Cybertruck. I have to break the link due to language. The actual review is quite honest in its way. However, if you are someone who judges on the person rather than the content, and you don't like Tucker Carlson, look away. He isn't the reviewer, his ex US Army neighbour is. Worth a look, imo. The thing is impressive in some respects, not in others. If I could fix the range issue ant put it in an OKA I'd be interested. But I can't. Not going to take an EV, any EV, into the bush. And it's $110K. In the US. That's lower end Ferrari money.

https://youtu. be/KBCA3UfbOzI'si=NWNt21bSKrewgDoH

[Saitch]

Just as a matter of interest, my wife, brother and a couple of friends work for Qld Gov. Depts.

There is a fair choice of EV brand to officially drive and all prefer the Kia EV for vision, comfort, function and simplicity.

I have yet to grace the seats of an EV, so cannot personally comment on their selection.

[PhilipA]

Carsales now has a dealer Model 3 for 29,990.
The 30K dam has been broken.
They must have paid much less for it.
25K next?
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

I think $300 would be too much. In fact, I think they'd have to pay me.


https://youtu.be/ixbdcGZZ4CU'si=Q1feK69-6sF6McFq

[Tins]

Still waiting for my diesel Disco to spontaneously combust. *


https://youtu.be/B8NY7abL0Mc'si=5sTKjjpR4AVmtW90

* For those who saw my post: Yes, I did have an 'event' this week. it was electrical, it was my fault, and I solved it by disconnecting the -ve terminal. Five minutes later I drove it away.

[spudfan]

To keep up this "green" thing, anyone who buys an EV should be obliged to keep it for a minimum of ten years. If they sell it before the ten year period they can buy another EV but without the government subsidies.

[Tins]

To keep up this "green" thing, anyone who buys an EV should be obliged to keep it for a minimum of ten years. If they sell it before the ten year period they can buy another EV but without the government subsidies.
And no financial assistance for battery service/replacement. No “free” charging, which is in fact paid for by the taxpayer. No registration subsidies, in fact due to the weight of the things I would argue that they should pay more like trucks due to road surface damage. If the individual was responsible for all of the costs of ownership we might see how popular they really are. The stickers proclaiming their “efficiency “ should be mandated to include the cost, both financially and environmentally, of their production and their energy use including impact on the grid. Anything less is just putting lipstick on a pig.

Cue the confected outrage.

[PhilipA]

I am surprised that my post on those EVs that have LFP batteries did not elicit more comment as the LFP battery EVs do not explode like those with Lion batteries.

So to me there should be a direct delineation that LFP battery EVs should be allowed in multi level car parks and be able to charge there and lion battery evs should not.

Cadogan seems to lump all EVs together as per his reporting on the South Korean conflagrations.

Maybe green diamonds on LFP and blue on Lion.

Regards PhilipA

[prelude]

Here's another one from Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwUDR8WTTKQ

[DoubleChevron]

Here's another one from Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwUDR8WTTKQ

He is to slow and boring to watch.

UK is going to be an excellent case study for the rest of the world. If I lived there I'd be out buying every low milage ICE vehcile I can find. They be gold in the next few years. What will happen in the UK is the majority will show the goverment the middle finger, and they will just keep there old ICE vehicles on the road.

https://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/index.php?attachments/1723504197429-png.246307/

This is what the looney government over there is mandating. Its not working, even in the first year. The obvious answer is they are pushing forward even harder and making the timeline shorter [bigrolf]

If this was france they would be rioting in the streets and burning every electric car they can find. To put the insanity of this into perspective. The fine for every ICE vehicle sold outside the percentages shown, will attract a $29,000aud fine..... per vehicle. So the public is saying "shove your electric cars where the sun don't shine" and refusing to buy them. The manufacturers are FORCED to sell what the public is saying "NO" too. the problem is the greenies that wanted electric cars have already purchased one (and I imagine will refuse to buy another), the only real sales seem to be company cars, as there is huge government incentives for them. I wonder if this will continue to work where the resale on them is so appalling. No matter what the government incentives are, will businesses continue to buy them when they are worhtless at sale time ... [bigwhistle]

I'm glad we get to sit back with the popcorn and watch what will happen... As it will be a good lesson for our moronic politicians who think they can force the public that elected them to do something they do NOT want to do.

[Tins]

Yes, well: "You will own nothing, and you will be happy".

[spudfan]

I am wondering if that was in the marriage ceremony and I just don't remember it...

[spudfan]

According to preliminary findings by public television RTP, citing witness accounts, the fire started in one of the electric cars and quickly spread to nearby vehicles.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/blaze-at-lisbon-airport-car-park-destroys-over-200-vehicles/ar-AA1oXuaX?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=6b26af79e0b3449490250c8a74450a95&ei=51

[NavyDiver]

AI and not so smart?
AI taxis beeping at other AI driverless taxis all night[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]



https://youtube.com/shorts/_4qdIbTpIsQ'si=MK-VGhlvYEGPM0fI

On topic but more business or a joke??? Mr E Musk threatening to take or move Tesla AI or another company he owns more of unless shareholder and board of Tesla give him 80 billion in new shares (24% he asked for on tweeter) Elon Musk wants more Tesla control or else he'll take AI projects elsewhere (axios.com) (https://www.axios.com/2024/01/16/elon-musk-tesla-stock-control-ai)

Never a dull moment in this space [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[PhilipA]

New Model 3 low on Carsales today $27800.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

New Model 3 low on Carsales today $27800.
Regards PhilipA

And it isn't sold.

[DoubleChevron]

And it isn't sold.

I'll take a punt at $500 bucks ..... could be fun for a bit while it still works.

edit: actually on second thoughts.... no thanks. Have you seen how much they are to insure :o

[Tins]

I'll take a punt at $500 bucks ..... could be fun for a bit while it still works.

edit: actually on second thoughts.... no thanks. Have you seen how much they are to insure :o

Don’t need insurance on a paddock bomb.

[p38arover]

This article in the Financial Times says 880 vehicles were damaged in the recent Korean EV fire.

Subscribe to read (https://www.ft.com/content/16662e1f-8aca-46e4-8624-a89582eb362e)

[cripesamighty]

And another 200 more at Lisbon airport.

[Tins]

How much longer will the insurers tolerate and underwrite this risk? They're not usually known for their philanthropy.

I'll save my thoughts on this for CA.

[PhilipA]

Ouch!
'Toxic' Tesla Semi Fire Closes Part of I-80 Indefinitely as Firefighters Let It Burn (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/toxic-tesla-semi-battery-fire-closes-part-of-i-80-indefinitely-as-firefighters-let-it-burn)

Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Ouch!
'Toxic' Tesla Semi Fire Closes Part of I-80 Indefinitely as Firefighters Let It Burn (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/toxic-tesla-semi-battery-fire-closes-part-of-i-80-indefinitely-as-firefighters-let-it-burn)

Regards PhilipA

California? Nothing to burn there....

[V8Ian]

Ouch!
'Toxic' Tesla Semi Fire Closes Part of I-80 Indefinitely as Firefighters Let It Burn (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/news/toxic-tesla-semi-battery-fire-closes-part-of-i-80-indefinitely-as-firefighters-let-it-burn)

Regards PhilipA
So, technically speaking, they're fire watchers. [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

How much longer will the insurers tolerate and underwrite this risk? They're not usually known for their philanthropy.

I'll save my thoughts on this for CA.

Its more science than CA JT Some suggest " Vehicles with internal combustion engines (your traditional petrol and diesel vehicles) had a significantly higher number of fires compared to fully electric vehicles. The study revealed that petrol and diesel vehicles experienced 1530 fires per 100,000 vehicles, while only 25 out of 100,000 fully electric vehicles caught fire. "
How Safe is Your Electric Vehicle From Fire? - EVSE Australia (https://evse.com.au/blog/electric-vehicle-fires/#:~:text=Vehicles%20with%20internal%20combustion%2 0engines%20%28your%20traditional%20petrol,out%20of %20100%2C000%20fully%20electric%20vehicles%20caugh t%20fire.)

Others say there is 80% less fires now than 40 years ago

Top 12 Car Fire Statistics



There were 212,500 vehicle fires (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#1_There_were_212500_vehicle_fires_in_2018) in 2018.
The number of vehicle fires went up slightly (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#2_The_number_of_vehicle_fires_went_up_slightly_be tween_2018_and_2019)between 2018 and 2019.
Older vehicles are the most likely to catch on fire. (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#3_Older_vehicles_are_the_most_likely_to_catch_on_ fire)
The national average is one fire per 19 million miles (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#4_The_national_average_is_one_fire_per_19_million _miles_driven) driven.
Vehicle file fires (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#5_Vehicle_file_fires_have_fallen_by_more_than_80_ since_1980) have fallen by more than 80% since 1980.
Passenger vehicles (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#6_Passenger_vehicles_had_the_most_fires)had the most fires.
Highway fires are the most common (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#7_Highway_fires_are_the_most_common_between_300_a nd_600_PM) between 3:00 and 6:00 PM.
1988 was the worst year (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#8_1988_was_the_worst_year_for_highway_vehicle_fir es_on_record) for highway vehicle fires on record.
In 2018, vehicle fires resulted in 560 deaths. (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#9_In_2018_vehicle_fires_resulted_in_560_deaths)
Vehicle fires cause more deaths (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#10_Vehicle_fires_cause_more_deaths_than_apartment _fires) than apartment fires.
Most casualties involving vehicle fires are male. (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#11_Most_casualties_involving_vehicle_fires_are_ma le)
Collisions are the leading cause of vehicle fires (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#12_Collisions_are_the_leading_cause_of_vehicle_fi res_resulting_in_death) resulting in death.

12 Car Fire Statistics to Know in 2024 | House Grail (https://housegrail.com/car-fire-statistics/#:~:text=Car%20Fire%20Frequency%201%201.%20There%2 0were%20212%2C500,6.%20Passenger%20vehicles%20had% 20the%20most%20fires.%20)

Fairy sure insurance companies are well aware [thumbsupbig]

This was nasty!
"Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher"
Electric vehicle fires are very rare. The risk for petrol and diesel vehicles is at least 20 times higher (theconversation.com) (https://theconversation.com/electric-vehicle-fires-are-very-rare-the-risk-for-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles-is-at-least-20-times-higher-213468)

I haven't checked the data. I haven't seen a car or bike of mine catch fire happily

[PhilipA]

So are these statistics for the carpark of ICE vehicles?
AFAIK the average age of the ICE carpark is 11 years or so in advanced countries while the average age of the EV carpark would be maybe 3years at most?
So the correct comparison is for the segment of the ICE carpark up to 3 years of age vs EVs of the same age.
I would bet the outcome would be much different.
And of course the ICE statistics would include all those ICE vehicles that are set on fire by one EV going up(over 200) as recently in South Korea and on the ships that recently caught fire like the Fremantle Express..
Liars can figure and figures can lie and this is like comparing apples to potatoes..
My personal experience is that it is usually dungers that catch fire like old old trucks with lots of oil leaks that self combust due to the oil around the turbo combusting.
Regards Philip A

[Tins]

Its more science than CA JT

My thoughts on it aren't.

[p38arover]

I haven't seen a car or bike of mine catch fire happily

I’m not sure any vehicle catches fire happily! 😁

[Saitch]

I’m not sure any vehicle catches fire happily! 😁

Perhaps in an insurance claim scam?

Or ND? 191041

[PhilipA]

One other factor that I just remembered.
A large proportion of EVs have Lifepo4 (called LFP) batteries which do not burn.
Most if not all Tesla model 3 short range have LFP batteries so this would reduce the total EV carpark subject to self immolation by about 50%.
In other words the incidence of fire is about double what the statistics may suggest.
It is the Long Range models which have the incendiary batteries . That is how they get long range with the same size battery pack as the incendiary type batteries have more energy density than the safe ones.
I posted the full list of models with LFP batteries earlier in the thread. They are generally the cheaper models in each range.
Regards PhilipA

[cripesamighty]

One thing that people forget when comparing EV to ICE fires, especially when covered in insurance figures, is a not inconsiderable proportion of ICE fires are arson, or suspected arson.

Even though 'safer', LFP batteries do actually burn and give off toxic gases, but they are more stable then their Lithium based cousins.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07BS6QY3wI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvQ9NEw76G8

[NavyDiver]

I’m not sure any vehicle catches fire happily! 😁
JT brought up the insurance issue[biggrin][biggrin] It want ME!!!!!!!!!!

While visiting Walhalla in a EV recently [thumbsupbig]
I learned when the GOLD stopped a lot of houses started burning until the Melbourne based Insurance company put a stop to the issue of happy fires for some and unhappy for the the Melbourne based Insurance company [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]


History – Walhalla Goldfields Railway (walhallarail.com.au) (https://www.walhallarail.com.au/history/)

Interesting as well was the train line was finished just as the town was dying really. Great place to visit in your LR's ladies and gents Or the odd EV as well[bigrolf]

[PhilipA]

The key issue that the fire bloke missed is that an LFP battery relies on external oxygen for ignition whereas Lion of other types produce their own oxygen.

This means that if you deprive an LFP of oxygen say with foam then it will go out whereas this is not the case with the other types.
Regards PhilipA'

I just came across this video by Will prowse who has become a guru tester of Lithium batteries.
LiFePO4 Drill Test! Will it erupt in flames? (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80)

[JDNSW]

JT brought up the insurance issue[biggrin][biggrin] It want ME!!!!!!!!!!

While visiting Walhalla in a EV recently [thumbsupbig]
I learned when the GOLD stopped a lot of houses started burning until the Melbourne based Insurance company put a stop to the issue of happy fires for some and unhappy for the the Melbourne based Insurance company [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]


History – Walhalla Goldfields Railway (walhallarail.com.au) (https://www.walhallarail.com.au/history/)

Interesting as well was the train line was finished just as the town was dying really. Great place to visit in your LR's ladies and gents Or the odd EV as well[bigrolf]

Not the only place the railway got there just as the gold ran out - other examples I know of are the Normanton to Croydon and Cooktown to Laura lines in Queensland. Both were completed after the gold ran out, although in the case of Cooktown to Laura, it was never completed to its planned length.

[NavyDiver]

Spare tires! One thing I do not like about new cars with space saver or a can of glue only is tires! A family using a EV 9 towing a 2 tonne caravan from WA have been doing well. In QLD now I think. One of the tires delaminated! They had added a spare which was not included with the car!

ElecTrekking on Facebook

Like most EVs and many new cars,... - ElecTrekking Australia (https://www.facebook.com/share/p/nVJRkk7YhyzoQrHK/)

I read about them months ago. This was the first time I had a look. Slow and fun trip.


Looks like they can get a 300km is range with the 2 tonne van! Not great but that is enough for most of my fishing and Diving spots [biggrin] [biggrin][biggrin]

Honestly I will hold off for solid state[bigwhistle]

[DoubleChevron]

I hadn't even noticed my post here had been moderated. I actually pretty disgusted with the behaviour on the moderator here. He sent me a private message telling me I am acting like a troll because I posted a video by john cadogan where he discussed the C02 outputs of an average electric car and ICE vehicle over a 10year period in Australia. Its actually very fascinating if you google "john cadogan auto expert 10 year c02 challenge". He's a very opinionated hard to tolerate person, so if you find the video fast forward to the point where he's at a whiteboard so you don't have to listen to the verbal diarrhoea he likes to go on with. I didn't realise moderators could just moderate away opinions they didn't like.

the horrific electric car fires are happening almost weekly now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW3Xv43jmYs

the idea of these electric cars being parked under buildings frightens the hell out of me. Well forget electric cars, I don't really have an opinion of them. However placing very large fire prone batteries in underground carparks should scare everyone.

seeya
Shane L.

[V8Ian]

I hadn't even noticed my post here had been moderated. I actually pretty disgusted with the behaviour on the moderator here. He sent me a private message telling me I am acting like a troll because I posted a video by john cadogan


seeya
Shane L.
A couple of pertinent points.
1: This is not the avenue to dispute moderation decisions.
2: You have grossly misrepresented the situation.
3: Moderation on this forum is not unilateral, it is discussed amongst the Mods, any outcome is by consensus.

I suggest you read the conditions of access to AULRO, then post with those conditions in mind.

[NavyDiver]

Did I mention after an update to fix the "Lane Keeping Assistance" my car decided to go in to reverse?

Mr L plater stopping at a stop sign. The Car jerked backwards SUDDENLY about 3 metres! Shocked plus assuming I missed something! That night Mr L plater driving again on a slight down hill slope stopped at a stop sign. The Car jerked backwards SUDDENLY about 3 metres.

No one was behind us either time luckily!

Car was taken back and dealer said they had NEVER EVER heard of this. I was asked specifically if One Pedal Driving was being used when I took it back that night!!!!!
Posted this on a MG 4 forum and found others had reported this fun month before the update which started it for me !:soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox::soapbox:

Giving the car back again for them to test after finally getting a call and very tepid 'sorry' from MG Australia.

My Trust Radar is faulting out as it is specifically related to 'One Pedal Driving' and I do not believe the dealer or the car people claiming I am the only lucky one[bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

I hadn't even noticed my post here had been moderated. I actually pretty disgusted with the behaviour on the moderator here. He sent me a private message telling me I am acting like a troll because I posted a video by john cadogan where he discussed the C02 outputs of an average electric car and ICE vehicle over a 10year period in Australia. Its actually very fascinating if you google "john cadogan auto expert 10 year c02 challenge". He's a very opinionated hard to tolerate person, so if you find the video fast forward to the point where he's at a whiteboard so you don't have to listen to the verbal diarrhoea he likes to go on with. I didn't realise moderators could just moderate away opinions they didn't like.

the horrific electric car fires are happening almost weekly now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW3Xv43jmYs

the idea of these electric cars being parked under buildings frightens the hell out of me. Well forget electric cars, I don't really have an opinion of them. However placing very large fire prone batteries in underground carparks should scare everyone.

seeya
Shane L.

I was in Ballarat again today. Parked outside mostly promise[thumbsupbig]

Watch Alone on SBS?
Search | SBS On Demand (https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/search/alone)


Three countries tried putting people alone on Vancouver Island BC Canada. It has the highest black bear population of anywhere! Alone UK was amazing as almost all of them were NOT campers and all terrified about Black Bears. The US version had a 7 year veteran solider. He was very verbal before going to the Island. He sat on a rock for a few hours then decided he wanted to go home. Black Bears and forest fear.

My point is there have been about 2 non fatal Black Bear attacks Vancouver island in the last several years- No one died!

The USA crew had one lady filming a mother and two cubs then a large male black bear. I went for a 20km trail run several time when I was there. Loved it. I did see a few bears and several Killer whales.

Media is full of interesting truths and untruths. Not suggesting most things cannot burn. I think most of us may recall the non steel ships burning brightly in the Falkland war?

I fear DROP BEARS. Just kidding.

[DoubleChevron]

I was in Ballarat again today. Parked outside mostly promise[thumbsupbig]

Watch Alone on SBS?
Search | SBS On Demand (https://www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/search/alone)


Three countries tried putting people alone on Vancouver Island BC Canada. It has the highest black bear population of anywhere! Alone UK was amazing as almost all of them were NOT campers and all terrified about Black Bears. The US version had a 7 year veteran solider. He was very verbal before going to the Island. He sat on a rock for a few hours then decided he wanted to go home. Black Bears and forest fear.

My point is there have been about 2 non fatal Black Bear attacks Vancouver island in the last several years- No one died!

The USA crew had one lady filming a mother and two cubs then a large male black bear. I went for a 20km trail run several time when I was there. Loved it. I did see a few bears and several Killer whales.

Media is full of interesting truths and untruths. Not suggesting most things cannot burn. I think most of us may recall the non steel ships burning brightly in the Falkland war?

I fear DROP BEARS. Just kidding.

I'm not sure what you are saying. That we shouldn't be concerned about battery fires? there has been several HUGE fires in the last month alone, from very new batteries, in very new vehicles.

There is nothing wrong with electric cars, but we need to be sensible, they shouldn't be recharged or stored underground (under buildings) or in parking towers. It is simple common sense. I have no doubt insurance risk will force this upon most of the first world, even if the increasingly insane government legislation surrounding anything that is electric car, does not mandate it.

I'm quite surprised they are still managing to ship anything containing large lithium batteries around the world with such ease. You would think after the first few ships have been torched, they would be saying "no big batteries allowed".

I'm not anti-battery, but I sure am anti-stupidity. And what we are doing at the moment is crazy!

I wish they would stop gifting our hard earnt tax payer money to the electric car industry. It needs to be able to survive on it own merits, like any other business. why did us poor tax payers just gift a huge company like ampol 100million to "maybe... sort of" attempt to build some car chargers.

The charging network needs to be self sustaining, if it can't cover implementation and running costs, it simply isn't viable. The prices to charge vehicles will need to increase to a point where they can survive and also make a reasonable return on investment.

seeya
Shane L.

[Tins]

I'm not sure what you are saying. That we shouldn't be concerned about battery fires? there has been several HUGE fires in the last month alone, from very new batteries, in very new vehicles.

.

Yes, well....


https://youtu.be/aKFaudtDkOc'si=QC56P4lTOqsVv66D

[DoubleChevron]

Yes, well....


https://youtu.be/aKFaudtDkOc'si=QC56P4lTOqsVv66D

I find that one intersting. How did they stop a fire in a carpark full of electric cars? You would need a fire break of some sort to stop the spread. I'm guessing you get as many people as you can find to rush out and drive as many cars away from around what is currently burning as possible (creating a fire break).

regardless of what starts the fire, we will need to be very careful of storing a large number of electric cars side by side in rows. Anything that starts a fire near the cars, is very dangerous, as once the first car/battery torches off .... how do you stop it spreading to the rest.

I'm guessing once again, liability insurance will prevent any number of electric cars being stored within a certain distance of each other in the future.

a 1 in a million chance of an electric car torching off .... means we will have how many horific fire each week if there is 40+million of the cars around the world ..... :o

[NavyDiver]

I'm not sure what you are saying. That we shouldn't be concerned about battery fires? there has been several HUGE fires in the last month alone, from very new batteries, in very new vehicles.

There is nothing wrong with electric cars, but we need to be sensible, they shouldn't be recharged or stored underground (under buildings) or in parking towers. It is simple common sense. I have no doubt insurance risk will force this upon most of the first world, even if the increasingly insane government legislation surrounding anything that is electric car, does not mandate it.

I'm quite surprised they are still managing to ship anything containing large lithium batteries around the world with such ease. You would think after the first few ships have been torched, they would be saying "no big batteries allowed".

I'm not anti-battery, but I sure am anti-stupidity. And what we are doing at the moment is crazy!

I wish they would stop gifting our hard earnt tax payer money to the electric car industry. It needs to be able to survive on it own merits, like any other business. why did us poor tax payers just gift a huge company like ampol 100million to "maybe... sort of" attempt to build some car chargers.

The charging network needs to be self sustaining, if it can't cover implementation and running costs, it simply isn't viable. The prices to charge vehicles will need to increase to a point where they can survive and also make a reasonable return on investment.

seeya
Shane L.

Hi Shane. my point was perception of risk V real risk. You mention several large recent fires. If I look I can find several large fires worldwide or in Ballarat? What is the real risk of my battery having a fire?

RAC states "That lack of awareness means people tend to be less cautious than they should be when charging or storing li-ion batteries and the results can be catastrophic."

that's in this link Lithium-ion Battery Fires - What You Need To Know To Stay Safe | RAC WA (https://rac.com.au/home-life/info/lithium-battery-fires#:~:text=Because%20they%20are%20packed%20with %20cells%20that%20store,home%20or%20office%20in%20 a%20matter%20of%20minutes.)


Most if not all other than physical damage to batteries are caused by "fires that may have been triggered by second-hand or nonoriginal chargers that failed to prevent a battery overheating while on charge"

Thats not an issue for a EV which has an onboard charger. The power supply to the charger being AC or ACDC (CCS) is the power not the charger!


Not suggesting things cannot go wrong. I person reversed back from a red light they entered at high speed almost into me an hour ago. Much more of a risk in my view[bigwhistle]

Live has risks. Almost all recharging my MG is indoors now. Its only when on long trips its out side. Should I be worried? I'm not.

[DoubleChevron]

Hi Shane. my point was perception of risk V real risk. You mention several large recent fires. If I look I can find several large fires worldwide or in Ballarat? What is the real risk of my battery having a fire?

RAC states "That lack of awareness means people tend to be less cautious than they should be when charging or storing li-ion batteries and the results can be catastrophic."

that's in this link Lithium-ion Battery Fires - What You Need To Know To Stay Safe | RAC WA (https://rac.com.au/home-life/info/lithium-battery-fires#:~:text=Because%20they%20are%20packed%20with %20cells%20that%20store,home%20or%20office%20in%20 a%20matter%20of%20minutes.)


Most if not all other than physical damage to batteries are caused by "fires that may have been triggered by second-hand or nonoriginal chargers that failed to prevent a battery overheating while on charge"

Thats not an issue for a EV which has an onboard charger. The power supply to the charger being AC or ACDC (CCS) is the power not the charger!


Not suggesting things cannot go wrong. I person reversed back from a red light they entered at high speed almost into me an hour ago. Much more of a risk in my view[bigwhistle]

Live has risks. Almost all recharging my MG is indoors now. Its only when on long trips its out side. Should I be worried? I'm not.

This is crazy though. Lets just pretend because it hasn't happened to me yet, it can't and wont happen .... This is my problem with battery fires. I think the risk is far, far, far greater than the statistics currently being sent around. Almost every single day lately there has been another inferno from a battery fire. Common sense says don't put batteries in unsafe locations (ie: underground or parking towers).

I'm not overly concerned, I'm pretty sure in the next few years, insurance companies will basically so "NO" with such eye watering premiums, everyone will have to sit up and take notice.

I have to say again, I'm not anti-electric car. we just need to be sensible with there implementation. Just because I'm unlikely to own one doesn't mean I don't think other shouldn't have the opportunity to own and enjoy them.

[BradC]

This is crazy though. Lets just pretend because it hasn't happened to me yet, it can't and wont happen .... This is my problem with battery fires. I think the risk is far, far, far greater than the statistics currently being sent around. Almost every single day lately there has been another inferno from a battery fire. Common sense says don't put batteries in unsafe locations (ie: underground or parking towers).

I do a lot of work in and around large towers (anywhere from ~30 to 120 stories). I'm left dumbstruck when I walk into a basement to find a row of electric car chargers tethered to rolling batteries. When I ask why the fire suppression systems haven't been updated to at least prevent one spreading if it goes up I'm told the drainage systems in the car parks couldn't cope with the required deluge, and since nobody is asking questions about it they just pretend it's not going to be an issue.

[Tins]

they just pretend it's not going to be an issue.

I think maybe we need a "famous last words" thread.

Now, I'm not saying that EV charging caused this, but imagine if it did.


https://youtu.be/HRMmob2E9Pc'si=QXwOYgMnyAA4QDPt

Or this. I know there were serious "code" issues here, but that's the point I guess.


https://youtu.be/D_c9Adxt5eM'si=Ij8gG65utQJtKOX5

[BradC]

I was in the UK for Grenfell, so I watched it unfold minute by minute. The engineering and construction failures that provided the holes in the cheese which aligned to ensure that was going to be a disaster were big enough to drive a truck through. Build it fast, build it cheap and don't maintain it. Oddly enough, built to solve a housing crisis. I look at the urban slums growing like zits across our suburbs and can't help wonder when our first one is going to happen.

In your average tall tower (mixed use, not solely private residential) there's generally enough fire suppression to mostly stop a widespread blaze. Once the fire moves from the battery vehicle to conventional vehicles the water has far more of a chance at keeping the fire contained. The water required to deluge a burning battery however is more than your common car park sprinkler system is built to provide, let alone the drainage.

Additionally, most of these facilities are constructed to sustain a not inconsiderable structural compromise and not fall down (think car boot of explosive material), so the structural damage caused by a battery fire shouldn't adversely impact the remainder of the building. All this is predicated on the building being properly planned, designed, constructed and maintained however.

One of Perths tallest buildings has recently been re-clad. Unlike Grenfell, the cladding was entirely contained in Aluminium with no space for fire intrusion, however ultimately the insulating core was flammable (you had to cut the panel apart to set fire to it though). Eventually the external pressure applied from various financial services became too much to bear, so even though the cladding had been phsyically tested and proven safe, it had to go.

When it comes to cheap accommodation towers, then it's a different kettle of fish. Much like the flammable cladding, my gut says it's going to take a couple of really bad fires bordering on disaster for insurers to wake up and apply sufficient financial pressure it'll override "but, but, but green!!".

[DoubleChevron]

I think maybe we need a "famous last words" thread.

Now, I'm not saying that EV charging caused this, but imagine if it did.


https://youtu.be/HRMmob2E9Pc'si=QXwOYgMnyAA4QDPt

Or this. I know there were serious "code" issues here, but that's the point I guess.


https://youtu.be/D_c9Adxt5eM'si=Ij8gG65utQJtKOX5


i think its really important not to blame every fire on batteries. I'm not impressed with the very few I've bothered to look at (the airport fire in the UK being blamed on a range rover diesel, when it was obviously the lithium hybrid battery torching off) and the house fire in new zealand where there is phone footage of the car torching off and the house being untouched .... being later written down as a "house fire, that spread to the car". when there is phone footage completely disproving this.

Everyone just needs to be honest. The real root cause of each fire needs to be investigated so we can work out a way of making sure it doesn't happen again. There needs to be trust in the authorities, they shouldn't just be blindly following the zealots from various industries. Whatever the route cause (be it flammable cladding, batteries or poor building design). this needs to be highlighted and catered for, not hidden.

[NavyDiver]

Not cheap yet of course- Cheaper is good as some newer ones will tow my boat!

"Tesla and Polestar are not the only brands to reduce prices on electric vehicles as competition increases with more electric car makers on the way Down Under, such as Zeekr and a reborn Smart (http://tag/smart/).BYD, MG and GWM have all lowered prices on electric vehicles in Australia, with Ford reducing the price of its Mustang Mach-E and e-Transit – the latter by $15,000.
The falling prices of electric cars in Australia has been described as an ongoing price war (http://news/new-chinese-electric-cars-will-lead-to-price-war-inquiry-is-told/) which is set to continue well into 2025.
The post 2025 Polestar 4 Australian prices dropped by almost $5000 (https://www.drive.com.au/news/2025-polestar-4-australian-prices-dropped/) appeared first on Drive (https://www.drive.com.au/)."

[B]Mia Cupla. I am borrowing my sister's petrol 4wd next week to tow two trailers. It is sub par to my prior Disco 3.5 tonne towing. Enough but just enough! Her other half has the same MG 4 as I have. They have two of them next week while I move. [biggrin]

[spudfan]

The recall includes 12,535 EVs in the US.
More than 12,000 Mini Cooper SE electric vehicles are being recalled in the United States. It’s part of a global recall effort that affects over 140,000 Mini EVs that could have an issue with their batteries.

The recall affects 12,535 2020-2024 Mini Cooper SEs. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Safety Recall Report, the high-voltage battery may not have been produced according to the automaker’s specifications. The document didn’t specify a direct cause, stating, “Faults may occur in the high voltage battery or high voltage system, which could be caused by various reasons.”
A fault could lead to a short circuit, overheating the battery and causing a "thermal event," i.e., a fire. It can even happen when the EV isn’t even in operation, but a warning message will appear to the driver.
BMW North America said it’s not aware of any injuries or accidents related to the issue. It began investigating a Mini that suffered a thermal event in October 2023 before learning in January 2024 of a second incident occurring in Germany.

Mini will update the potentially affected vehicles with new software that includes a diagnostic function that can detect malfunctions in the high-voltage battery and discharge it below 30 percent. The update is free, and the automaker will begin notifying owners on October 7.
I just copied and pasted the article.
Here is the link if you want to see it.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/mini-recalls-140-000-evs-over-battery-fire-risk/ar-AA1pWhXP?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=68d32e4198d5495289651c29be17171f&ei=14

[DoubleChevron]

The recall includes 12,535 EVs in the US.
More than 12,000 Mini Cooper SE electric vehicles are being recalled in the United States. It’s part of a global recall effort that affects over 140,000 Mini EVs that could have an issue with their batteries.

The recall affects 12,535 2020-2024 Mini Cooper SEs. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Safety Recall Report, the high-voltage battery may not have been produced according to the automaker’s specifications. The document didn’t specify a direct cause, stating, “Faults may occur in the high voltage battery or high voltage system, which could be caused by various reasons.”
A fault could lead to a short circuit, overheating the battery and causing a "thermal event," i.e., a fire. It can even happen when the EV isn’t even in operation, but a warning message will appear to the driver.
BMW North America said it’s not aware of any injuries or accidents related to the issue. It began investigating a Mini that suffered a thermal event in October 2023 before learning in January 2024 of a second incident occurring in Germany.

Mini will update the potentially affected vehicles with new software that includes a diagnostic function that can detect malfunctions in the high-voltage battery and discharge it below 30 percent. The update is free, and the automaker will begin notifying owners on October 7.
I just copied and pasted the article.
Here is the link if you want to see it.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/mini-recalls-140-000-evs-over-battery-fire-risk/ar-AA1pWhXP?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=68d32e4198d5495289651c29be17171f&ei=14

How does a car discharge itself when sensing a "thermal event". I can't imagine how you will rapidly discharged a fully charged battery of that size. It could power most houses for days its stores so much energy .... :)

[Tins]

How does a car discharge itself when sensing a "thermal event". I can't imagine how you will rapidly discharged a fully charged battery of that size. It could power most houses for days its stores so much energy .... :)

The thermal event is the discharge....

[spudfan]

2019 Jaguar I-Pace Recalled For The Fifth Time Over Battery Fire Risk
This time, a new software update will limit the state of charge to 80%. A permanent fix still hasn’t been found, though.
The Jaguar I-Pace battery fire risk recall saga continues.
This latest recall for the 2019 model year still doesn't provide a permanent fix.
Instead, the temporary solution is to limit the maximum state of charge to 80%.
Jaguar I-Pace owners in the United States have had a rough time, especially those who bought a 2019 model year. the first to be sold. That’s because the British company’s first mass-market electric vehicle–and one of the first modern long-range EVs–has been recalled yet again for a battery fire risk.
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), this is the fifth time the 2019 Jaguar I-Pace has been recalled for the same problem. However, the bigger issue here is that there’s still no permanent fix for the problem.
The first recall, dated May 25, 2023, explained that some I-Pace EVs from all model years might have high-voltage battery packs that are prone to overheating, thus increasing the risk of a fire. The fix was to install an over-the-air software update for the battery energy control module that would monitor the state of the high-voltage pack and, in some cases, individual battery modules were to be replaced.
For the 2019 I-Pace, however, the problem persists, with three reports of battery fires in the U.S. coming in even after the latest fix. In the most recent recall dated August 23, 2024, the automaker advises owners to park and charge their vehicles outside and away from structures until the repair is complete and for an additional 30 days after that.
But the repair still doesn’t exist. As a temporary fix, the recall report says the affected vehicles will get a new software update for the battery energy control module which will limit the maximum state of charge to 80%.

A total of 2,760 U.S.-spec Jaguar I-Pace EVs manufactured between January 5, 2018, and March 14, 2019, are affected by this latest recall.
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/cars/news/2019-jaguar-i-pace-recalled-for-the-fifth-time-over-battery-fire-risk/ar-AA1q2rk7?ocid=msedgntp&pc=ACTS&cvid=dd7c995bf4a74c1cbbe9e881c33979cd&ei=24

[p38arover]

There are reports that car manufacturers in Britain are limiting sales of ICE vehicles so that they can (hopefully) meet Govt. sales requirements for EVs in order to avoid the GBP15,000/vehicle fine for not meeting targets.

A good way to have people keep their old ICE vehicles.

[DiscoDB]

There are reports that car manufacturers in Britain are limiting sales of ICE vehicles so that they can (hopefully) meet Govt. sales requirements for EVs in order to avoid the GBP15,000/vehicle fine for not meeting targets.

A good way to have people keep their old ICE vehicles.

…and many would argue keeping existing cars on the road for longer is better than buying new (be it EV or ICE).

So potentially win win…. [emoji106]

(But maybe not be good for the economy which is built around unnecessary consumerism).

[p38arover]

I certainly won’t be buying an EV, too expensive and, as a retiree on a pension, I can’t afford one.

[JDNSW]

I am in a similar situation to Ron - but I would liketo get one if I ever find one that meets my needs and that I can afford.

[123rover50]

I wouldnt take one if you gave it to me. Wouldnt get me to town anyway.
The three vehicles I have, a 57 SWB ,a 92 Disco both 200TDI and the 67 Forward control Camper, Isuzu turbo will all see me out.

Keith

[prelude]

Oh, I'd take one for free :) And flip it immediately after and pocket the money, to buy a real car [bigrolf]

Went to the Rotterdam zoo yesterday (which is badly going backwards in all regards so would no longer recommend) and it had something like 10 EV chargers. They put signs underneath the "EV ONLY PARKING" signs that were already there stating "100% EV only" so PHEV's are no longer welcome and ALL of those were taken up by the time I arrived halfway through the morning and were not moved until I left around 3. This means that of the I dunno, 1000 parking spots, 10 were for EV's and all the poor sods that came after driving an EV would have to have enough range or crawl to the nearest fast charger with their screaming kids who are completely worn out after a day like that and hope they could top up a bit in the time it takes to "take a pee an drink a coffee" as it is sold, or the time it takes to "have a worn out kid throw a tamper tantrum that will pull your hair out"

Needless to say I drove to the nearest fuel station with chargers en-route and guess what, A line waiting for those chargers and people arguing (friendly) with each other if they could please not charge any longer than absolutely necessary because, you know "the kids" whom could be heard through the closed cars. Sure, not all the kids were misbehaved :) But to me it made a very nice point

A zoo is one of those things that attracts people far and wide, mostly with kids and requires you to have a vehicle with quite a bit of range. It seems unlikely that the zoo grounds are going to be able to install many more chargers any time soon. Even if they installed 10 times more, that would still only be 10% of total capacity and there are supposed to be many more % of EV's on the road soon.

Where it used to be that old zoo's that used to lie at the edges of a city are now well within the cities limits and that start to cause parking problems in a big circle around said zoo, we will now have that problem with EV charging, potentially displacing locals trying to charge.

I'll be interested from a pure technical point of view as to how situations like this are going to be solved (if at all) and in what time span. Personally I think this is one of the myriad of instances where I need to conclude that this has not been thought thru, at all, whatsoever.

Cheers,
-P

[Tins]

Personally I think this is one of the myriad of instances where I need to conclude that this has not been thought thru, at all, whatsoever.

Cheers,
-P

Politicians and lobby groups don't have to think things through, because they don't have to suffer from their decisions.

[Tins]

This is not limited to EVs, but they are the main culprits, and if the various govts get their way will be the only alternatives. I can't possibly link to the video, but Lous Rossman bells the Ford cat with his take on the new patent application re ads in your car. That microphone you find so convenient, the one that is increasingly replacing the humble button, will, if Ford et al get what they want, will spy on your conversations to target you. Your phone, especially if it's Android, already does this. Do you want your car doing it too?

[austastar]

Hi,
A bit about EVs on The Spirit of Tasmania.

Link (https://www.spiritoftasmania.com.au/sailing-fares/vehicles-and-bicycles/electric-vehicles#:~:text=At%20Spirit%20of%20Tasmania%2C%20 we,personal%20mobility%20devices%20(PMDs).)

Cheers

[Tins]

Hi,
A bit about EVs on The Spirit of Tasmania.

Link (https://www.spiritoftasmania.com.au/sailing-fares/vehicles-and-bicycles/electric-vehicles#:~:text=At%20Spirit%20of%20Tasmania%2C%20 we,personal%20mobility%20devices%20(PMDs).)

Cheers

Insurance requirements I'm tipping. We're going to see more of this.

[Tins]

Keeps getting better...


https://youtu.be/aEaWqQzf6cc'si=cSRKOT5u_vBpDdP5

[DoubleChevron]

Keeps getting better...


https://youtu.be/aEaWqQzf6cc'si=cSRKOT5u_vBpDdP5


Is mainstream media reporting on the pretty much daily battery fires yet? Do you like the big fireproof enclosures around those batteries, so if one torches off, it doesn't torch all the batteries around it. How do they these approved when layed out like that... These are supposed to be "smart" first world countries.

[Tins]

MSM report what they are told to report.

[Saitch]

Had a good laugh at my brother's expense. He was in a very new, work EV and decided on Maccas for lunch. He pulled into the drive through, to order, but couldn't work out how to lower the driver's window! [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

He was on the 'phone to me, at the time and I found it quite humourous.

[NavyDiver]

New and changes are worth noting. I tried working out 150Kw per wheel then thought why, I only buy or invest not build them[biggrin][biggrin] The battery changes are cylindrical overtaking packet style and significant 'Consolidations' in the mass production side occurring.

The weird bit of the headline of this linked bit is 'but not with hydrogen'! The energy source is not relevant to the story so may be a LOOK AT ME type? [bigrolf]


China unveils a strange in-wheel engine: The end of EVs, but not with hydrogen (ecoticias.com) (https://www.ecoticias.com/en/gac-in-wheel-engine-hydrogen-evs/6154/)

This is an inline electric motor by GAC Group that is one of the largest manufacturers of automobiles from China to unveil what is likely to transform the EV market. This new technology created by GAC Research and Development Department differentiate the automaker’s electric vehicle powertrain design from traditional approaches.
The in-wheel motor also referred to as the wheel hub motor is an electric motor designed to be located right in the wheel of the car. This design also does away with usual components of the drivetrain including gear boxes, driveshafts and differential, hence making this powertrain system compact.
GAC’s new in-wheel motor showcases several cutting-edge features that set it apart from conventional electric motors:


High-Speed Operation: At its optimum speed, the motor can revolve at an astounding 30,000 rpm, which bests most of the existing electric motors used in present-day electric cars.
Compact Design: The motor itself is rather small and measures only 330 mm in diameter, which makes it fitting to as many wheels’ sizes as possible.
Lightweight Construction: Coming in a lightweight of 16. 8 kg, the motor further lightens the vehicle; thus improving efficiency and performance.
Power Output: However, due to its size, it is able to produce a maximum of 150 kW of power, or approximately 201 bhp.

[DiscoDB]

High-Speed Operation: At its optimum speed, the motor can revolve at an astounding 30,000 rpm, which bests most of the existing electric motors used in present-day electric cars.
Compact Design: The motor itself is rather small and measures only 330 mm in diameter, which makes it fitting to as many wheels’ sizes as possible.
Lightweight Construction: Coming in a lightweight of 16. 8 kg, the motor further lightens the vehicle; thus improving efficiency and performance.
Power Output: However, due to its size, it is able to produce a maximum of 150 kW of power, or approximately 201 bhp.
[/LIST]

An in-wheel motor with an optimum speed of 30,000rpm. That would make it good for Mach 3!

I suspect somewhere there has been a “lost in translation” moment in this story.

GAC have just started production of a lightweight 30,000rpm motor, but it is not an in-wheel motor.

[p38arover]

Is mainstream media reporting on the pretty much daily battery fires yet?

I hope my home battery doesn't do that.

[DoubleChevron]

I hope my home battery doesn't do that.

Just check the recall lists. I'm assuming its installed in a fire proof enclosure either way :) (surely its not just leaning up against the house!).

You would have to be statistically extraordinarily unlucky to have a lithium battery torch off. Though I have noticed even the small ones now are starting to torch off in caravans (which absolutely terrifying, nothing burns better or faster than a caravan without putting an incendiary device under the bed in or the front boot next to the door [bigsad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlb2CFnKApg&t=74s&pp=ygUnY2FyYXZhbiBmaXJlcyBsaXRoaXVtIGJhdHRlcnkgYXV zdHJhbGlh

luckily the two I've heard of .... the caravan was sitting un-used .... not even plugged in when they torched off.

[Tins]

Yeah, well... I managed to short a pair of 18650 cells once. It's astonishing just how much energy these things can release, and even more astounding is the speed in which they can do this. Lucky I didn't burn the bloody house down.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/V1voVDrXmO0'si=KYKdtxkPuQ5i501L

[PhilipA]

Did anyone notice that when he shows a clip of a cybertruck in the street there is a bloke being run over in the foreground?
We have to also know whether the batteries are LFP or Lion. That has a huge bearing on the resulting fire.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Did anyone notice that when he shows a clip of a cybertruck in the street there is a bloke being run over in the foreground?


Yep. I think people were confused and distracted by a blue Cybertruck.

With regards to the battery type... it still burned, and it still required a fire appliance to be taken from service to follow the thing to its grave.

[DoubleChevron]

Yep. I think people were confused and distracted by a blue Cybertruck.

With regards to the battery type... it still burned, and it still required a fire appliance to be taken from service to follow the thing to its grave.

That was kind of impressive. The fire didn't turn into an immense fireball as the entire battery melted down. The design of that battery seemed to work. It only torched off the compartment that was damaged right?

Yes I understand its still a battery fire, but anything to reduce the fire risk has got to be given the thumbs up.

[NavyDiver]

When was the first Eletric car? After you guess Tesla, Toyota or Nissan leaf perhaps try this link for a time machine.

First Electric Car: A Brief History of the EV, 1830 to Present (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g43480930/history-of-electric-cars/)

Watched the Current Wars last night. (SBS on demand) Sorry to say its not on SBS any longer! It expired last night.
Nikola Tesla , George Westinghouse and Thomas Edison all impacted on our lives! Amazing bits I had missed such as Thomas Edison pivot to General Electric and really to Cine Film - Hollywood!

So much trivia in that one which isn't trivial at all[biggrin]



find this if you can

VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5LjJyD9Kaw[/VIDEO]

[V8Ian]

There used to be one of those Detroit Electric cars at Gilltraps Auto museum, on the Gold Coast. I wonder what happened to that collection. :confused:

[DoubleChevron]

There used to be one of those Detroit Electric cars at Gilltraps Auto museum, on the Gold Coast. I wonder what happened to that collection. :confused:

have a look at jay lenos youtube channel, he has been slowly restoring a detroit electric with a nissan leaf battery pack (maybe entire driveline) for many years. It really is a fascinating old car.

[V8Ian]

Jay Leno grates on my nerves.

[Tins]

Just watched the last, final episode of The Grand Tour. Typically self indulgent, but still good fun.

Why am i posting this here?? Because of one thing Clarkson said, about why he chose to end. Electric cars: he has zero interest in reviewing appliances, washing machines.... Nailed it, imo.

[prelude]

I noticed that too :) I enjoyed the last episode with a misty eye. They gave as good couple of decades of entertainment and yes, he hit the nail on the head. I've been calling EV's "appliances" for a couple of years as well now. No soul no nothing.

-P

[Tins]

I noticed that too :) I enjoyed the last episode with a misty eye. They gave as good couple of decades of entertainment and yes, he hit the nail on the head. I've been calling EV's "appliances" for a couple of years as well now. No soul no nothing.

-P

He also said no EV driver would ever hear that glorious pop and crackle from the Lancia twin cam, a noise that I, as the previous owner of many FIAT sports cars, am very familiar with. Those things have character, a BYD does not.

[TonyC]

He also said no EV driver would ever hear that glorious pop and crackle from the Lancia twin cam, a noise that I, as the previous owner of many FIAT sports cars, am very familiar with. Those things have character, a BYD does not.

Which has nothing to do with one being electric.

The buyer of a BYD, if buying a petrol car would buy some cheap soulless appliance car.

99.9% of modern cars don't crackle and pop.

Can you imagine trying to sell a Fiat 124 Sport today, makes me all warm a fuzzy about my Lucas electrics🤪 and the rust!

[Tins]

Can you imagine trying to sell a Fiat 124 Sport today, makes me all warm a fuzzy about my Lucas electrics🤪 and the rust!
A good 124, especially the AC or BC series, can bring serious money. Selling one would be no problem at all. Finding one, oth…… I have had someone from Belgium pestering me for my tail lights.

I agree that the BYD buyer isn’t interested in a car with “character “. However I am. That’s why I watched TG/TGT. They understood this.