EV general discussion

[spudfan]

Well this is a very rosey picture of the EV in Australia
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/a-post-servo-highway-how-electric-vehicles-are-changing-the-australian-roadscape/ar-AA1eaUKx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=97dbd05c165a46c2bfdec0e3a1df8957&ei=178

[123rover50]

Well this is a very rosey picture of the EV in Australia
https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/world/a-post-servo-highway-how-electric-vehicles-are-changing-the-australian-roadscape/ar-AA1eaUKx?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=97dbd05c165a46c2bfdec0e3a1df8957&ei=178

Can only read a few lines then it freezes up. Obviously does not want me to get an EV. Thats OK dont need one anyway.

[spudfan]

This is it....

A couple with a brand-new electric Lexus stand blankly at the EV charging station, walking from one charger to the other with cables in hand. Within minutes, a crowd of EV drivers gathers. The strangers offer to help the couple with charging their car, showing what plugs and apps to use. Soon enough, the appreciative pair are charged up and back on the road.

Motorists are not generally known for their community spirit and small acts of kindness. But around electric vehicle charging stations – whether on a regional highway, outside a cafe or in the centre of a busy city – a strange and wonderful communal vibe is developing.

Drivers share tips on stations and stop offs, offer to plug in others’ cars once their own is charged, or gather to help a new owner figure the whole thing out.

It is a much different experience to refuelling at a petrol bowser, where people stand around trying not to breathe the fumes and avoid eye contact before a perfunctory interaction with the cashier and getting back on the road as soon as possible.

Enthusiastic early adopters are developing a strong social etiquette around charging.

Bernhard Conoplia, Evie Networks
This difference could be because most EV drivers spend 20 to 40 minutes at a charger, which is a long time to sit alone in a car. Or it could be that many EV drivers are still simply excited to own an electric car, that EV drivers are still relatively small in number so are keen to connect withs other people in the club. Whatever it is, something is happening at charging stations.

“What we’re seeing is enthusiastic early adopters who are developing a strong social etiquette around charging,” says Bernhard Conoplia, the head of charging at Evie Networks, which operates more than 110 public fast charging stations around Australia.
Charging network apps like Plugshare allow users to set a public status when they “check in” to a particular charger and communicate with others who might need to charge there: Here for 30 mins; Will be back at 5.45pm; One charger out of action
As the number of electric vehicles on Australia’s roads increases – in 2022 EVs grew from 1% to 5% of overall car sales – the driving landscape and experience is changing.

Electric vehicle charging is a very different ecosystem in a social, technological and economic sense. This has implications not only for EV drivers but for hospitality and other businesses near charging stations, for ageing electricity infrastructure that will experience an entirely new type of demand, and for governments looking to encourage the uptake of EVs.
‘People are discovering places’
Goulburn used to be a natural stopping and refuelling point on the three-hour journey between Canberra and Sydney. Many drivers broke up the trip with a pause for petrol and a drive-by glimpse of the Big Merino in Goulburn. Then the highway was upgraded to bypass the town and it dropped off the map.
But now there are multiple fast and super-fast charging stations in Goulburn. Walk around these stations and there is a noticeable concentration of EVs as drivers grab something to eat or drink while charging their car.

Most EV drivers will spend about half an hour at a charger, but they don’t need to stay with their car. Payment for charging, if required (NRMA’s charging network is currently free, although not for long), is taken through an app, so there is no need to hang around. And that opens up a world of commercial possibilities.

“It’s a business-generating mechanism, as well as a service to the driving public,” says John Sullivan, CEO of Chargefox, Australia’s largest network of EV chargers.

A charging station means an increase in foot traffic and Sullivan says studies show that stations at shopping centres increase the time people spend in that centre. A business with a charging station, such as a farm shop, can also make it more attractive to EV drivers, Sullivan says.

EV charging stations are often more integrated with local towns and communities, rather than being highway stops or on exit roads. Conoplia says this changes drivers’ calculations about when and where to stop and charge.

“They’re planning where they might stop to charge where there’s going to be some good amenities,” he says. This has benefits for those locations beyond the time it takes for an EV to charge. “People are discovering places they may not have otherwise stopped at, and then they can think about having the next family holiday in that town if they like what they see.”

This aspect of EV charging has influenced where NRMA chooses to locate its charging stations. “When the NRMA started designing and planning for our network of EV chargers, we made sure they were located in areas which would encourage greater visitation,” says Carly Irving-Dolan, chief executive of energy and infrastructure at NRMA. “The average 20-30 minute charge time at our destination chargers means EV drivers can grab a bite to eat, stretch their legs, and explore the local area before heading back on the road.”

The issue with infrastructure
A key question for Australia is what a comprehensive national charging network looks like to support the rollout of EVs. But like petrol stations, EV charging stations can’t be built anywhere.“There are a lot of numbers being thrown around as to the number of chargers that we actually need,” Sullivan says. “It’s such an early stage that people haven’t really worked out what the pattern of usage really is.”

Sullivan says a lot of the assumptions about EV charging habits, which would inform modelling for EV charging infrastructure, are based on the patterns of people refuelling petrol cars. But the reality of EV charging is very different.

It’s a task to find locations where you can lease parking spaces and drive energy and electricity to it, even in cities.

John Sullivan, Chargefox
For one thing, many EV cars are at least partly charged at home, and Sullivan says most drivers will leave the house with enough charge to get to their destination and back. “What I think will happen is there will definitely be a lot more charging infrastructure put in homes, and that the majority of people’s experience charging will be from home.” That has implications for EV owners in high-density urban settings, who may not have access to off-street parking and an electricity source even for slow charging.

In commercial venues, such as supermarket or tourist destination car parks, it is not a simple case of just plonking some charge stations anywhere in a car park, as electricity suppliers might only be able to reach certain parking bays. And some venues may not want to lose prime car park real estate to charging operators. “It’s a task to find locations where you can lease parking spaces and drive energy and electricity to it, even in cities and in larger areas,” Sullivan says.

On the open road, super-fast charging stations are starting to appear alongside highways to enable rapid charging for longer distance drives. But in a country like Australia, with vast areas of little to no infrastructure and ageing grids, that too is posing a challenge for charge point operators.
“One of the key challenges is getting access to power,” Conoplia says. “We do augment the grid as part of our process, and that’s an expensive thing to do.” He’d like to see more government support for charging operators to help with the cost of upgrading electricity infrastructure to allow for fast and super-fast charging.

Australia also presents unique challenges when it comes to setting up charging stations in remote areas. “You can’t guarantee telephone connectivity [necessary for using the apps] driving from one city to another city, and all of this infrastructure that gets put in needs really good, reliable electricity,” Sullivan says. Then there’s heat, salt water, flooding, bushfires and even local wildlife such as ants to contend with.

But these barriers must be surmounted if Australia is to have the infrastructure to support electrification of domestic car travel. Last summer saw the first instances of Australians queueing at electric charging stations over the holidays. Increasing demand and longer wait times at chargers could challenge the communal spirit of EV drivers.

[grey_ghost]

Does anyone remember Jonestown? Waiting around for your vehicle to charge - while they all have a sip of EV Kool Aid..

I’m sorry but I am not prepared to take 30-40 minutes to refuel my vehicle, especially considering the range. A new report out of the US has said that batteries not only suffer in the cold, but also in the heat - up to 30% of range can be lost in temperatures of 110f.

In the city I think that EVs are a great idea. But outside of that - no thanks.

[4bee]

Was not proving any point - just asking if our major cities power distribution is truly tapped out if total load across the network is coming down.

No doubt existing apartment unit owners will have complications if everyone decides to buy an EV and wants their own personal level 2 charger. At best they may be able to get a few shared fast chargers which people will have to learn how to play nicely with each other to gain access too.

There will always be a % of EV owners who have no choice but to use public chargers.

But I would expect new developments will have to make provisions for this - probably becomes a good selling point.

To quote someone recently. "Not my problem" I'm sticking with ICE. I realise it is a bit slower than Direct Expansion but there you go. What else would a Fridgie use pray tell?
:Rolling:

[4bee]

Surely at your vintage, flow through a small orifice is slower than years gone by [emoji56]


Thanks for that. Why did I know you'd respond Mike. Ah, I know, your experience with Hydraulics. Same thing really. In a way.[bigrolf]

[101RRS]

This weekend a friend in Ashfield (Sydney) with a BYD Atto travelled down to Nowra - vehicle started with 400 odd km of range and arrived in Nowra with 48% remaining after the 170km trip. For whatever reason he did not or could not recharge in Nowra and decided to use the NRMA Charger in Berry on the way home and booked in for a free slot this afternoon.

Of course even though he had booked the charger and arrived on time he said some dirty Leaf was using the charger and as he had it booked, kicked him off. It took the BYC 55 minutes to go from about 45% to 100% where an ICE would take about 5 min all up.

He didn't really want to wait but did not have the range to get back home so he went to the pub for the hour or so the charge took. I didn't ask him why he did not recharge in Nowra but I guess the chargers were not working or not fast enough.

For me the issue is not range - just the time it takes to recharge EVs up - fine as a runabout at home but a really issue when driving longer distances. Adds unnecessary hours to a longer trip.

[RANDLOVER]

I saw an AFL Player saying how the drive across the Nullabor from Perth to Melbourne to a new club, took him two weeks years ago in a petrol car, as every day around midday he had to stop for a counter lunch and a few beers so couldn't drive anymore.[bigrolf]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

For sure if you have splurged thousands of $$$ on a high rate home charger but it will take days to charge with the standard home charger EVs come with.
$700 plus install?? Is that expensive? A nanocom to clear LR faults.. cough...

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It was just an exercise. Didn’t take any charging delays/hold ups/availability into the sums. That’s a convenience/locality argument - my calcs still work for city owners - when I was city based my daily travel was about the same servicing clients and many a tech or service rep will cover these kilometres.

I’d read an article claiming no cost benefit, so did it whilst sitting here waiting for my wet tumbler to finished its run [emoji13]

Based on current supply charges - I don’t believe on paper it’s (financially) for almost anybody. Happy to see a model where it makes a significant difference.

Unless the person is the current owner of a very large solar array the costs just don’t stack up as of any (financial) benefit to the owner regardless of kilometres driven annually.

Add purchase premium vs equivalent ICE and let’s say 7 years of initial ownership, the current offerings don’t seem to have a financial benefit (private vehicles) unless your boss is willing to let you charge at work for free [emoji6] otherwise plugging in at work is the equivalent of misuse of a fuel card. [emoji56]

They certainly aren’t cleaner, except if you’re standing behind them [emoji41], with the learned argument sitting somewhere between 16,000 & 40,000 miles* before the vehicle itself goes carbon nett zero from manufacturing and excludes any further processing.

No.. you keep with they aren't cleaner. You're just wrong on that. wrong wrong wrong! Go watch sky news for a while and you'll feel better. Keep saying it like it's fact - someone might believe you.

As to the sums.. everyones situation is different. Frankly I didn't understand your calcs but whatever works.

We've got two vehicles in our garage. 1 a land rover TD5 defender. 1 Tesla Model Y. I went for a trip for a ride Saturday. Could have taken either car although it's easier to throw the bike in the Tesla.

The trip was 134km. The Tesla used 17 KWH. 125 WH/KM. Let's calculate that. My electricity costs .21c (let's ignore solar for the moment so worst case). The trip cost 17 * .21 which is $3.57. The national grid is 900g of co2 per KM again ignoring solar. So that's 15.3 KG of Co2 for the trip.

My defender typically averages 12l/100k. So it would use 16 Litres for that trip. Diesel near me is 192.9 this morning so that's $30.86 in cost. It's 2.640kg of co2 per litre of diesel. So that trip would have directly emitted 42.24 KG of co2 for the same trip. Note that no one ever includes the amount of CO2 required to find, extract, transport, and refine fuel in their co2 calculations so it's likely massively understated.

TABLE for you.
KM 134
Cost CO2
Tesla $3.57 15.3KG
TD5 $30.86 42.24 KG

I know we're lucky to be able to have two cars. But I think this illustrates the advantage of having one of each. It works really well for us. But we're not constantly looking for reasons for it to not work either which seems to be a common theme here.

Added bonus is the Defender doesn't rack up the miles and wear doing stupid short trips. I can buy another Tesla if required, but my defender seems to be irreplaceable. So this is something I really like.

And no - tesla don't state any servicing for their cars. Just tyre rotation and cabin filters as required.

[Tombie]

No.. you keep with they aren't cleaner. You're just wrong on that. wrong wrong wrong! Go watch sky news for a while and you'll feel better. Keep saying it like it's fact - someone might believe you.

As to the sums.. everyones situation is different. Frankly I didn't understand your calcs but whatever works.

We've got two vehicles in our garage. 1 a land rover TD5 defender. 1 Tesla Model Y. I went for a trip for a ride Saturday. Could have taken either car although it's easier to throw the bike in the Tesla.

The trip was 134km. The Tesla used 17 KWH. 125 WH/KM. Let's calculate that. My electricity costs .21c (let's ignore solar for the moment so worst case). The trip cost 17 * .21 which is $3.57. The national grid is 900g of co2 per KM again ignoring solar. So that's 15.3 KG of Co2 for the trip.

My defender typically averages 12l/100k. So it would use 16 Litres for that trip. Diesel near me is 192.9 this morning so that's $30.86 in cost. It's 2.640kg of co2 per litre of diesel. So that trip would have directly emitted 42.24 KG of co2 for the same trip. Note that no one ever includes the amount of CO2 required to find, extract, transport, and refine fuel in their co2 calculations so it's likely massively understated.

TABLE for you.
KM 134
Cost CO2
Tesla $3.57 15.3KG
TD5 $30.86 42.24 KG

I know we're lucky to be able to have two cars. But I think this illustrates the advantage of having one of each. It works really well for us. But we're not constantly looking for reasons for it to not work either which seems to be a common theme here.

Added bonus is the Defender doesn't rack up the miles and wear doing stupid short trips. I can buy another Tesla if required, but my defender seems to be irreplaceable. So this is something I really like.

And no - tesla don't state any servicing for their cars. Just tyre rotation and cabin filters as required.

You play the Sky News card, you keep saying they're cleaner like its fact - please post up some balanced info, more than happy to see it....
Saying its cleaner doesnt make it so - I have access to a decent sized environmental monitoring and compliance team. They have significant access to global mining and mineral processing environmental reports. They also monitor energy production globally, looking to see where, who etc is doing what.
We have all the reports from all the companies mining the minerals used in the construction, all the output data from the steel processing mills, mining companies diesel burn, chemicals used to process, the environmental damage reports for the brine farms, reports on the damage to the water table in these contries, the fresh water consumption, the smelting emissions for the steel and alloy components - all the bits and pieces all add up.

You are correct, there is no smell coming from the backside of your Tesla, its all elsewhere - on the same planet, same atmosphere, just now no longer concentrated in the area you live.


If you're enjoying the car, thats all fantastic, you do you... I have no issue with that at all. Seriously, more than happy you have a car you enjoy driving - and they are nice to drive, been there, driven them, I like them - and they're quick which is fun too!
And being able to preserve the Defender is a great bonus, as you say, they cannot be had anymore.


What is a lovely little Green Wash, is they arent cleaner over their lifespan - things get better in a few tiny countries where their energy is 24/7 geothermal etc
Current generation EVs are driving horrendous practices in procuring the necessary minerals, far worse than iron / steel in conventional vehicles and no large scale reprocessing facilities are in action, so its not being cleaned up at end of cycle.
Environmental impacts of these mineral resource operations (talking less controlled nations here, which are principal source of Cobalt, Lithium etc) are having long term impacts on water tables, land damage and environmental changes. No point if there is no water or vegetatation to help reprocess the CO2 [bigwhistle]

As an example, Here is an excerpt from a research paper: Carbon Footprint Study of Tesla Model 3 - (Note: This research is based on 150,000km of driving)

The GHG emissions value per unit distance of Tesla Model 3 is376gCO2e/km, 17% higher than the average GHG emissions of B class ICEV


Unlike most pure electric passenger cars, Tesla Model3 not only has a GHG emissions higher than the averageGHG emissions of same class ICEV in the raw materialacquisition stage and production stage, but also has aGHG emissions value higher than the average GHGemissions of same class ICEV in the usage stage. Thismay be due to Tesla Model 3's power consumption ismuch higher than the average level of electric vehicles ofthe same class, resulting in a significant increase in GHGemissions during the use stage.Reference1. ISO, ISO 14040: 2006 Environmental ManagementLife cycle assessment-Principles and framework.2006: International Organization for Standardization.2. ISO, ISO 14044: 2006 Environmental management -Life cycle assessment - Requirements and guidelines.2006: International Organization for Standardization.3. ISO, ISO 14067:2013 Greenhouse gases - Carbonfootprint of products - Requirements and guidelinesfor quantification and communication. 2013:International Organization for Standardization.

Its never as cut and dry as they claim.

Take a look at Electric Jesus and his companies environmental reporting - he's been dodging it for years and its only just starting to be (partially) reported - as expected its not as small as originally claimed



Anyway, enjoy driving your cars, whatever they may be [biggrin]

[scarry]

Thanks for that. Why did I know you'd respond Mike. Ah, I know, your experience with Hydraulics. Same thing really. In a way.[bigrolf]

I am sure the oriface size is directly related to the direct expansion,I thought you would have picked that:angel:[biggrin]

Anyway,FWIW,I don’t mind that Sky News,the only news worth watching:whistling:

Although I must have missed the night they were chatting about EV’s.[bigsad][smilebigeye]

[4bee]

I am sure the oriface size is directly related to the direct expansion,I thought you would have picked that:angel:[biggrin]

Anyway,FWIW,I don’t mind that Sky News,the only news worth watching:whistling:

Although I must have missed the night they were chatting about EV’s.[bigsad][smilebigeye]


jkl


Mind you given a choice I would have preferred an Ammonia TEV. Big orifice you see.[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Mind you given a choice I would have preferred an Ammonia TEV. Big orifice you see.[bigrolf]

The pilot operated model[biggrin]

Then there is the oriface plate in a 600 KW Centrifugal.[bigrolf][biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

Camperdown and Geelong have now made the fast charge crew. I direct line to the elderly M&D is now much less will I make it[biggrin]

I know I brought a shockingly short range and not Tombies "Electric Jesus" [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] cars Electric Jesus has lot of charges not used a LOT of the time or almost any of the time I go past them[bigrolf]

Hope my assumption on who Electric Jesus is correct.

Its a bit crook for all the places that added silly speed chargers. The 7ish kwh take several hours which is never on my travel to do list again.

Those two new ones mean I do not deviate to RACV Torquay or Ballarat which are both fast yet the range to get to both left me on edged almost every time[bigwhistle]

It seem $0.45 is the current charge cost. Still significantly cheaper than my very last fuel bill. RIP Disco [bawl] Its Driving on with another cool family happily.

[Tombie]

Thanks ND, you’re one of the fortune early adopters in that your premises, both home and work allow you to charge and both have good sized arrays present.

For you, it seems to be a nice fit for your current [emoji12] needs.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

You play the Sky News card, you keep saying they're cleaner like its fact - please post up some balanced info, more than happy to see it....
Saying its cleaner doesnt make it so - I have access to a decent sized environmental monitoring and compliance team. They have significant access to global mining and mineral processing environmental reports. They also monitor energy production globally, looking to see where, who etc is doing what.
We have all the reports from all the companies mining the minerals used in the construction, all the output data from the steel processing mills, mining companies diesel burn, chemicals used to process, the environmental damage reports for the brine farms, reports on the damage to the water table in these contries, the fresh water consumption, the smelting emissions for the steel and alloy components - all the bits and pieces all add up.

You are correct, there is no smell coming from the backside of your Tesla, its all elsewhere - on the same planet, same atmosphere, just now no longer concentrated in the area you live.


If you're enjoying the car, thats all fantastic, you do you... I have no issue with that at all. Seriously, more than happy you have a car you enjoy driving - and they are nice to drive, been there, driven them, I like them - and they're quick which is fun too!
And being able to preserve the Defender is a great bonus, as you say, they cannot be had anymore.


What is a lovely little Green Wash, is they arent cleaner over their lifespan - things get better in a few tiny countries where their energy is 24/7 geothermal etc
Current generation EVs are driving horrendous practices in procuring the necessary minerals, far worse than iron / steel in conventional vehicles and no large scale reprocessing facilities are in action, so its not being cleaned up at end of cycle.
Environmental impacts of these mineral resource operations (talking less controlled nations here, which are principal source of Cobalt, Lithium etc) are having long term impacts on water tables, land damage and environmental changes. No point if there is no water or vegetatation to help reprocess the CO2 [bigwhistle]

As an example, Here is an excerpt from a research paper: Carbon Footprint Study of Tesla Model 3 - (Note: This research is based on 150,000km of driving)




Its never as cut and dry as they claim.

Take a look at Electric Jesus and his companies environmental reporting - he's been dodging it for years and its only just starting to be (partially) reported - as expected its not as small as originally claimed



Anyway, enjoy driving your cars, whatever they may be [biggrin]
You haven't included your sources.. I could provide stuff but I really doubt you'd listen to it anyway. There is so much FUD on the web.

What part of this was it you don't understand? The ev emits only 1/3 the co2 for the same trip as the defender. How long do you really think it's going to take to offset the additional co2 produced in its manufacture? I know.. forever right.

TABLE for you.
KM 134
Cost CO2
Tesla $3.57 15.3KG
TD5 $30.86 42.24 KG

Unlike the Defender, the tesla will continue to put out lower emissions throughout it's life as the grid greens. At the end of it's life the battery is very close to 100% recyclable. Lithium and Iron. No cobalt thanks. If I sell the car before it's end of life, it will not immediately cease to exist but it's lower emissions will continue to benefit society.

So you're crazy worried about issues with producing EV batteries, but you're totally OK with oil extraction and all the issues that brings? Are you aware that each litre of fuel could have a co2 overhead of as much as 30% depending on field etc? Can we count that in this? Moving tankers around the world has resulted in some stupendous disasters and mining usually makes quite the mess. Are you ok with the cobalt used in the process of refining oil?

https://www.mercator-ocean.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/image-wakashio-resizée.png

I was riding next to a main road in Brisbane yesterday. All I could smell was diesel and petrol smells. My lungs sucking in that pollution. I rode past shops, childcare centres, schools. Why isn't clean air a thing? Isn't emitting it away from population centres a good idea?

If you're really worried about the environment the best answer is to not drive. Not volunteering? I can't get everyone in this house to volunteer either. So four people using one EV seems like it's worth a shot.

[4bee]

The pilot operated model[biggrin]

Then there is the oriface plate in a 600 KW Centrifugal.[bigrolf][biggrin]



That sounds even better.[bigrolf]

[Tombie]

Whilst it’s not good… Those CoMOX catalysts almost never degrade (best part of a catalyst) and they also generate elemental Sulphur and Sulphuric acid used in many other processing streams.

And yes, you’re correct, I won’t be giving up my driving (work is fixed, personal travel is choice).

I also won’t be giving up Polyester any time soon, which Cobalt is used to reduce emissions by improving its production.

I also won’t stop using my synthetic based phones, health care products, clothing, or my tech which all use Oil in their production.

You are correct that lower end Tesla models only use LFP as it’s cheaper and has lower energy density. The higher end vehicles use Nickel and Cobalt. They all use Graphene though, and I can tell you exactly where a large proportion of that comes from, and have seen the photos from that region showing what’s been done there.

Know how much lithium based battery is recycled annually? About 10% of the 3,300t made in Australia pa (currently)
It’s expected that Lithium battery waste will exceed 136,000t pa in the next 12 years.

There is almost zero capacity to process them in Australia, with almost all stockpiled presenting huge fire and environmental issues.

It’s currently not priced effectively to reprocess, and until they tax us into oblivion to pay for it, looks unlikely to be economical for a significant time. One process quotes higher energy exertion than the returned benefit. (Time should change that hopefully).

By then it will likely be SS batteries and H2FCs more likely, so ROI will probably cripple it. Let’s face it, they aren’t processing old tyres effectively yet either.

Quoting the tailpipe emissions isn’t useful unless measuring to direct area standards - if we expand that area, Australia’s total emissions are also “nothing”, a clean patch compared to other nations globally - so why bother sending us broke when we “hardly make anything” [emoji6]

Agree 100% that inhaling the likes of Benzene isn’t a good thing. No argument there. Especially post change to ULP when TEL dropped and C6H6 increased notably, alongside a measured increase in cancer rates. So no argument from me.

The report I quoted has the title attached, you can link to it.
I cannot release corporate data supplied for fairly obvious reasons.

Total life is critical, at the moment EVs are worse than equivalent sized ICEVs on average. That pollution is still out there. And still impacting atmospheric conditions.

It’s like that “little mushroom cloud” in an obscure desert many years ago. It wasn’t in my region by any stretch of the imagination. However I have SR-90 in my body from it, we all do.

Bring on a truly sustainable tech that doesn’t limit people and doesn’t do harm somewhere and I’ll line up with my cash straight away.

Random side note: our 2 wheel hobby is pretty nasty too, CF is incredibly energy and emissions intense, Al is pretty messy too (although 14 times less than CF) and the bikes 2 legged engines are huge CO2 emitters over their total lifespan [emoji56]


Keep safe, enjoy life….

[DiscoDB]

4WD owners debating total GHG emissions over a vehicles total life cycle is some what ironic (in my opinion).

There are too many variables as it very much depends on where the raw materials come from, where the metals are made, where the car is made, where it is sold, where the fuel or electricity comes from to fuel that car, and what you assume is the life of the vehicle.

There is plenty of published data that shows EV’s do have lower CO2 emissions per km over the total life cycle, but this is very much dependent on where each part of the vehicles lifecycle comes from and the assumptions behind that.

Currently the biggest difference is for cars manufactured and sold in Europe - where total lifecycle emissions for a BEV are estimated to be between 30-40% compared to an ICE. Most EV’s would be ahead by about year 4 or 5. But if the car is built in China, using raw materials from Australia, and is sold back to Australia, then the break even point can easily be 2-4 times longer (if not more if using coal powered electricity).

Providing all parts of the life cycle use renewables, then over the full life time an EV can be expected to be much much lower, and in countries like Norway would be carbon neutral within a few years, but we have a long way to go to achieve this. Especially in countries like China, the US, and Australia where coal still plays a big part of our energy mix.

And yes - like the tobacco industry disputing health data, the American Petroleum Institute does dispute these studies, claiming that based on their analysis total GHG emissions from an ICE can be “similar” to a BEV. (Similar does not mean lower). Again - it all depends on the assumptions made in the model.

Meanwhile people should just enjoy what ever they drive safe in the knowledge that your individual impact is insignificant.

Now I did read a report that having a child is 7 times worse for the environment than the next 10 most discussed mitigating actions any individual can take. Which is proof that we can all blame the parents!

So to our millennials - I say have one less kid, enjoy having more money, get a V8 4WD and an EV sedan, and be happy!

[NavyDiver]

4WD owners debating total GHG emissions over a vehicles total life cycle is some what ironic (in my opinion).

There are too many variables as it very much depends on where the raw materials come from, where the metals are made, where the car is made, where it is sold, where the fuel or electricity comes from to fuel that car, and what you assume is the life of the vehicle.

There is plenty of published data that shows EV’s do have lower CO2 emissions per km over the total life cycle, but this is very much dependent on where each part of the vehicles lifecycle comes from and the assumptions behind that.

Currently the biggest difference is for cars manufactured and sold in Europe - where total lifecycle emissions for a BEV are estimated to be between 30-40% compared to an ICE. Most EV’s would be ahead by about year 4 or 5. But if the car is built in China, using raw materials from Australia, and then sold back to Australia the break even point can easily be 2-4 times longer (if not more if using coal powered electricity).

Providing all parts of the life cycle use renewables, then over the full life time an EV can be expected to be much much lower, and would be carbon neutral within a few years, but we have a long way to go to achieve this. Especially in countries like China, the US, and Australia where coal still plays a big part of our energy mix.

And yes - like the tobacco industry disputing health data, the American Petroleum Institute does dispute these studies, claiming that based on their analysis total GHG emissions from an ICE can be “similar” to a BEV. (Similar does not mean lower). Again - it all depends on the assumptions made in the model.

Meanwhile people should just enjoy what ever they drive safe in the knowledge that your individual impact is insignificant.

Now I did read a report that having a child is 7 times worse for the environment than the next 10 most discussed mitigating actions any individual can take. Which is proof that we can all blame the parents!

So to our millennials - I say have one less kid, enjoy having more money, get a V8 4WD and an EV sedan, and be happy!

Debate is good[biggrin]

Excuse this one as it is EV and may belong in Grumpy OLD bugger thread[bigwhistle]

The Chemo express is doing double duties this weel. A PET scan in Geelong arranged last Tuesday for early morning this Thursday. Cancer transport ( Red Cross) accommodation the night before the early appointment in Geelong and Dad to respite care. All sweet?
A few questions later-

How far is Accommodation from Scan place-
[B]A- About 1000 metres or a bit more
Issue- Cannot walk nearly that far!

Has transport been arranged?
- No- could not be done as appointment was not seen by the people who do that until today and cars are all booked out a week or more in advance!

Has respite care been arranged?
NO.

IT WASN'T me

Guess who is now driving back to pick up deliver and return with or without the NavyD Senior[biggrin] Suspect the short range EV will hit 50,000 km by week end[bigwhistle] Its not my weekend spoilt. Its my working week:bat::bat::bat:

Other people organizational skills are interesting to watch and impact on others

[DiscoDB]

Fits here NavyDiver. It is general discussion, involves an EV, and this is the Grumpy EV thread.

I would hit “like” but that feels wrong. We need a “D’oh!“ button.

[DiscoDB]

Just adding to my earlier post. This analysis highlights the real problem with EV’s in Australia. Spoiler alert: The problem is not EV’s - it’s where we get our power from.

Are EVs greener than ICE vehicles? (https://premium.goauto.com.au/are-evs-greener-than-ice-vehicles/)

I don’t agree with all the assumptions and it doesn’t consider that the energy mix is changing and will continue to improve (meaning the break even point also continues to improve).

But the analysis comparing the energy mix in Australia v.s. the World v.s. Europe and the impact this has on the total lifecycle emissions highlights the big differences you will see in different studies, and why moving away from fossil fuels is the key.

Should stress this is not using current data. The energy mix data looks like it is quoting 2018/2019 data. Our electricity is now reported to be over 35% renewables, not 21% that was used in the study, and we should be on track to hit 50% by 2025.

So the break even point will only continue to improve as we generate more electricity from renewable sources (and is already much better than this study reported - would be closer to 90,000kms in Australia for the particular car used in this analysis vs. 49,000kms if run from 100% renewables).

Edit: and if you are interested in knowing where the original source data came from, it is from this report published by Volvo.

Volvo C40 Recharge Carbon Footprint Report (https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/Market-Assets/INTL/Applications/DotCom/PDF/C40/Volvo-C40-Recharge-LCA-report.pdf)

[4bee]

You haven't included your sources.. I could provide stuff but I really doubt you'd listen to it anyway. There is so much FUD on the web.

What part of this was it you don't understand? The ev emits only 1/3 the co2 for the same trip as the defender. How long do you really think it's going to take to offset the additional co2 produced in its manufacture? I know.. forever right.

TABLE for you.
KM 134
Cost CO2
Tesla $3.57 15.3KG
TD5 $30.86 42.24 KG

Unlike the Defender, the tesla will continue to put out lower emissions throughout it's life as the grid greens. At the end of it's life the battery is very close to 100% recyclable. Lithium and Iron. No cobalt thanks. If I sell the car before it's end of life, it will not immediately cease to exist but it's lower emissions will continue to benefit society.

So you're crazy worried about issues with producing EV batteries, but you're totally OK with oil extraction and all the issues that brings? Are you aware that each litre of fuel could have a co2 overhead of as much as 30% depending on field etc? Can we count that in this? Moving tankers around the world has resulted in some stupendous disasters and mining usually makes quite the mess. Are you ok with the cobalt used in the process of refining oil?

https://www.mercator-ocean.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/image-wakashio-resizée.png

I was riding next to a main road in Brisbane yesterday. All I could smell was diesel and petrol smells. My lungs sucking in that pollution. I rode past shops, childcare centres, schools. Why isn't clean air a thing? Isn't emitting it away from population centres a good idea?

If you're really worried about the environment the best answer is to not drive. Not volunteering? I can't get everyone in this house to volunteer either. So four people using one EV seems like it's worth a shot.


If the above is Tin's present Boat someone should mention to him that he seems to have a few problems other than some minor daggy wiring & a few scratches.
:Thump::Rolling:

[Homestar]

You haven't included your sources.. I could provide stuff but I really doubt you'd listen to it anyway. There is so much FUD on the web.

What part of this was it you don't understand? The ev emits only 1/3 the co2 for the same trip as the defender. How long do you really think it's going to take to offset the additional co2 produced in its manufacture? I know.. forever right.

TABLE for you.
KM 134
Cost CO2
Tesla $3.57 15.3KG
TD5 $30.86 42.24 KG

Unlike the Defender, the tesla will continue to put out lower emissions throughout it's life as the grid greens. At the end of it's life the battery is very close to 100% recyclable. Lithium and Iron. No cobalt thanks. If I sell the car before it's end of life, it will not immediately cease to exist but it's lower emissions will continue to benefit society.

So you're crazy worried about issues with producing EV batteries, but you're totally OK with oil extraction and all the issues that brings? Are you aware that each litre of fuel could have a co2 overhead of as much as 30% depending on field etc? Can we count that in this? Moving tankers around the world has resulted in some stupendous disasters and mining usually makes quite the mess. Are you ok with the cobalt used in the process of refining oil?

https://www.mercator-ocean.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/image-wakashio-resizée.png

I was riding next to a main road in Brisbane yesterday. All I could smell was diesel and petrol smells. My lungs sucking in that pollution. I rode past shops, childcare centres, schools. Why isn't clean air a thing? Isn't emitting it away from population centres a good idea?

If you're really worried about the environment the best answer is to not drive. Not volunteering? I can't get everyone in this house to volunteer either. So four people using one EV seems like it's worth a shot.

His sources are the bloody huge global company he works for not the web - I won’t name it and he hasn’t but trust me, Tombie has access to the facts and figures - undiluted by propaganda on either side of the fence - they need that for what they do.

Let’s just say that knowing what he does (sorta) and knowing the company he works for - I believe him.

[DiscoDB]

His sources are the bloody huge global company he works for not the web - I won’t name it and he hasn’t but trust me, Tombie has access to the facts and figures - undiluted by propaganda on either side of the fence - they need that for what they do.

Let’s just say that knowing what he does (sorta) and knowing the company he works for - I believe him.

Do tell us Tombie - who is this huge global company that has access to facts and figures not shared with the public?

(Serious question - as I too have worked for huge global companies, and I still work in the mining and resources industry, and the data they had supports moving to a renewable energy future of which EV’s are a big part of this).

[RANDLOVER]

Mind you given a choice I would have preferred an Ammonia TEV. Big orifice you see.[bigrolf]


The pilot operated model[biggrin]

Then there is the oriface plate in a 600 KW Centrifugal.[bigrolf][biggrin]

How many inches of errr mercury is the discharge pressure on these?

[RANDLOVER]

Do tell us Tombie - who is this huge global company that has access to facts and figures not shared with the public?

(Serious question - as I too have worked for huge global companies, and I still work in the mining and resources industry, and the data they had supports moving to a renewable energy future of which EV’s are a big part of this).


His sources are the bloody huge global company he works for not the web - I won’t name it and he hasn’t but trust me, Tombie has access to the facts and figures - undiluted by propaganda on either side of the fence - they need that for what they do.

Let’s just say that knowing what he does (sorta) and knowing the company he works for - I believe him.

Govt's are not totally stupid and are going to institute CO2 import tariffs against, if not outright bans and criminal charges against companies and individuals that think they can do the wrong thing in far flung corners of the world. Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism (europa.eu) (https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/carbon-border-adjustment-mechanism_en)

[Homestar]

Why should he have to tell anyone here where he works or what he does? Believe him or don’t, pretty simple. He’s not running for an election or anything.

Do you really expect him to share company information that is private and confidential to a forum? Just because a couple of people here don’t believe what he’s saying?

[Saitch]

Do tell us Tombie - who is this huge global company that has access to facts and figures not shared with the public?



I've been finding this thread entertaining and informative.

Please don't turn it into a 'Popcorn Eating' one.

I'm sure there is a lot of information supplied across the whole AULRO forum, of which the sources are confidential, by necessity.

[DiscoDB]

I've been finding this thread entertaining and informative.

Please don't turn it into a 'Popcorn Eating' one.

I'm sure there is a lot of information supplied across the whole AULRO forum, of which the sources are confidential, by necessity.

This thread has been a Popcorn eating one for a long time now. [emoji41]

But I am not asking to see confidential information. Just asking which company has this information.

Sounds like important analysis, but I am sure there are commercial reasons why it wouldn’t be shared, so not expecting to see the reports or data.

[DiscoDB]

So talking about studies that are not available to the public.

This is a good summary that is allegedly from Mitsubishi that is claimed to have been presented at a media briefing earlier this year, but was never released to the public. It was being used to justify why Mitsubishi believe the best EV (outside of Europe) is a PHEV on balance.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230724/09d412056fa767c0ca502f23745479d4.jpg

Again we don’t know the assumptions they have used, but the point they are making is their Life Cycle Analysis data shows that EV cars manufactured in China and sold in China or Australia will contribute more CO2 emissions than an ICE. This is based on China and Australia having some of the dirtiest power generation in the world.

By comparison they also support that EV cars manufactured in Europe and sold in Europe will have lower emissions over its life cycle compared to an ICE.

Mitsubishi’s argument is what is good for Europe is not good for the rest of the world, similar to the view held by Toyota, and for this reason why PHEV’s should be seen as a viable alternative.

From the Mitsubishi analysis, for us in Australia they would advocate buying a BEV (or PHEV) made in Europe, and then use renewables for charging. The next best compromise would be to buy from Japan or Thailand.

It looks like a credible point of view as the analysis is comparable to the comprehensive reporting done by Volvo which is publicly available.

[NavyDiver]

So talking about studies that are not available to the public.

This is a good summary that is allegedly from Mitsubishi that is claimed to have been presented at a media briefing earlier this year, but was never released to the public. It was being used to justify why Mitsubishi believe the best EV (outside of Europe) is a PHEV on balance.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230724/09d412056fa767c0ca502f23745479d4.jpg

Again we don’t know the assumptions they have used, but the point they are making is their Life Cycle Analysis data shows that EV cars manufactured in China and sold in China or Australia will contribute more CO2 emissions than an ICE. This is based on China and Australia having some of the dirtiest power generation in the world.

By comparison they also support that EV cars manufactured in Europe and sold in Europe will have lower emissions over its life cycle compared to an ICE.

Mitsubishi’s argument is what is good for Europe is not good for the rest of the world, similar to the view held by Toyota, and for this reason why PHEV’s should be seen as a viable alternative.

From the Mitsubishi analysis, for us in Australia they would advocate buying a BEV (or PHEV) made in Europe, and then use renewables for charging. The next best compromise would be to buy from Japan or Thailand.

It looks like a credible point of view as the analysis is comparable to the comprehensive reporting done by Volvo.

The Method of attributing or denning C02 emissions via the Kyoto Protocol is to the source of the fuel! I put a link in another thread on Biofuel burning North American wood pellets for electricity in an allegedly LOW C02 emitting EU country. The C02 is attribute to North America![bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] Total rubbish! As we export a Significant amount of cheap gas to Japan from the North West Shelf guess where the accounting happens?

Lies dammed lies and statistics.


Back to batteries

"The official news is that the Tesla Cybertruck (https://insideevs.com/tesla/cybertruck/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) will be equipped with Tesla's 4680-type cylindrical battery cells - an improved version, with a 10 percent higher energy density (https://insideevs.com/news/677885/tesla-cybertruck-4680-cells-boast-10-percent-higher-energy-density/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) than in the case of the Tesla Model Y (https://insideevs.com/tesla/model-y/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) AWD (the first and only 4680-powered BEV so far).Today, we will stop for a while to check out interesting estimations of potential energy consumption and battery capacity, recently published by Troy Teslike.
The report assumes battery energy density at:


Gen 1 (4680-type): 229 Wh/kg
81.2 Wh per cell, 355 g

Gen 2 (4680-type): 252 Wh/kg (10% boost)
89.4 Wh per cell, 355 g

Panasonic (2170-type): 262 Wh/kg
18.4 Wh per cell, 70 g


As we can see, the new "Cybercell" is expected to offer a slightly lower energy density than Panasonic's 2170-type cylindrical cells, but the difference is small (4 percent), while the new structural battery pack might bring substantial weight savings on the car level. Another thing is that it's actually not bad for an automotive company to be so close to Panasonic's technology, while there might still be substantial untapped potential in the larger cell format."

From "The Long Range version potentially might have a battery that's two times bigger than the Tesla Model Y at 160 kWh. (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/estimated-tesla-cybertruck-battery-capacity-120-kwh-in-base-version/ar-AA1eh5kp?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=da84b8b808e8428c9a2baefbb4fe541f&ei=10)"

The interesting thing about several current testing on solid state batteries is that all of the above is :whistling::whistling:



That none of the current EVs are being build for ease of battery replacement is bit of a PITA! Adding significant more power and range with significantly less size and weight to existing EV will be a item worth watching possibly? My battery may weight in at 250kg. That several battery weights can fit in mine is known. 42 to 72 kWh.

Appreciate the software would also require changing for the charge rates and other important bits!.

A Long Range tank on my Gold Disco gave it over 1000km range! About a 40to 60% increase in range from the one tank

Suspect if I could change my current 42kWh battery to a Quantum scape solid state Battery at 380-500 Wh/kg"

That may be 300+ percent more than mine! As a ratio it may make the LR tank on the disco look a poor investments for the range increase? Horses for courses of course!

[DiscoDB]

The Method of attributing or denning C02 emissions via the Kyoto Protocol is to the source of the fuel!

Not sure that is the basis of the Mitsubishi analysis. It looks to be purely based on the in country power generation with the fuel source attributed directly to the country using that energy.

China and Australia average is around 600g/kWh based on current energy mix (but is coming down and at similar rates of improvement). The problem for us in Victoria is brown coal which generates 1200g/kWh.

By comparison Sweden power generation, which is 99% renewables or nuclear (70/30 split), is under 50g/kWh. This is going to be a problem for Volvo as they shift more manufacturing to China.

But yes - please get us back to discussing the technical topics. [emoji106]

[4bee]

I've been finding this thread entertaining and informative.

Please don't turn it into a 'Popcorn Eating' one.

I'm sure there is a lot of information supplied across the whole AULRO forum, of which the sources are confidential, by necessity.

Especially if one has got a bit on the side.[biggrin]

[DiscoDB]

Back to batteries

With Toyota (and others) on the verge of commercialising solid state batteries, I definitely would not be buying an EV right now.

If Toyota deliver on an EV with a 1200km range and 10 minute charging time, over night they will make every EV that came before this obsolete. Especially as a 400-600km range could potentially be recharged in 5 minutes or less.

The motivation for Toyota making these claims is they know they have a lot of catching up to do, but they want buyers to hold off.

Of course, the infrastructure needed to deliver this sort of power is going to be incredible - like 1,000kW chargers! Which is what Tesla claim the Semi and Cybertruck will be able to be charged at.

Personally I think Toyota are taking cue cards from Tesla by making big outlandish claims, but wow - what a claim!

[Homestar]

1000KW chargers everywhere…. hmmm…

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Random side note: our 2 wheel hobby is pretty nasty too, CF is incredibly energy and emissions intense, Al is pretty messy too (although 14 times less than CF) and the bikes 2 legged engines are huge CO2 emitters over their total lifespan [emoji56]


Keep safe, enjoy life….

FYI I gave up on carbon bikes after I realised they typically only lasted a couple of years and then ended up in a skip. They lasted ok as long as people don't ride them much.

So I use titanium bikes. I don't even want to think about that manufacture. But it's only a bit over 1kg of titanium, and us up to nearly 50,000k now. I've no plans to replace it. The last bike I bought wast steel.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

With Toyota (and others) on the verge of commercialising solid state batteries, I definitely would not be buying an EV right now.

If Toyota deliver on an EV with a 1200km range and 10 minute charging time, over night they will make every EV that came before this obsolete. Especially as a 400-600km range could potentially be recharged in 5 minutes or less.

The motivation for Toyota making these claims is they know they have a lot of catching up to do, but they want buyers to hold off.

Of course, the infrastructure needed to deliver this sort of power is going to be incredible - like 1,000kW chargers! Which is what Tesla claim the Semi and Cybertruck will be able to be charged at.

Personally I think Toyota are taking cue cards from Tesla by making big outlandish claims, but wow - what a claim!

Fake it till you make it? "Please don't buy an EV now - Toyota."

There is only one reason why car companies talk about products in development and that is they want to limit sales losses to competitors.

Solid state batteries: Toyota has history of talking big on EV breakthrough, but not delivering (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/solid-state-batteries-toyota-has-history-of-talking-big-on-ev-breakthrough-but-not-delivering/)

[DiscoDB]

Fake it till you make it? "Please don't buy an EV now - Toyota."

There is only one reason why car companies talk about products in development and that is they want to limit sales losses to competitors.

Solid state batteries: Toyota has history of talking big on EV breakthrough, but not delivering (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/solid-state-batteries-toyota-has-history-of-talking-big-on-ev-breakthrough-but-not-delivering/)

I did say they must be taking cue cards from Tesla. [emoji48]

[NavyDiver]

I did say they must be taking cue cards from Tesla. [emoji48]

Happy to noted my smarty pants prediction used and new current EV prices would fall. The gent who suggested trade in value of my quirky version at 32k was not insulting despite seeing them advertised at some silly 2nd hand prices
Just saw one at 34K (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/details/2021-mg-zs-ev-essence-auto-my21/SSE-AD-15267669/?Cr=0&gts=SSE-AD-15267669&gtsSaleId=SSE-AD-15267669&gtsViewType=showcase&rankingType=showcase)


Things flip very quickly with supply constraints seeing some sell new cars more than they just brought them for just a few years ago[biggrin]

My thought are still lower prices likely for both new and used EV.

"Nearly 40 percent of used EVs in the United States are available for less than $30,000, according to Recurrent’s latest market report.The prices of used all-electric vehicles in the United States have gone down 28 percent since July 2022, according to the latest car buying report from Recurrent, with used Tesla prices seeing a decrease of more than 30 percent year-over-year as a consequence of the company reducing new vehicle prices.
Furthermore, Recurrent’s data shows that nearly 40 percent of used EVs in the United States are available at less than $30,000, which is good news for people going after the potential $4,000 tax credit (https://insideevs.com/features/631430/best-used-ev-tax-credit/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) offered by the IRS for eligible zero-emissions vehicles that cost $25,000 or less and have a battery of at least 7 kilowatt-hours.
The declining prices for used EVs in the US are partly due to price cuts for new cars, including federal incentives for battery-powered cars, but also because demand for used cars has softened."

[Homestar]

Fake it till you make it? "Please don't buy an EV now - Toyota."

There is only one reason why car companies talk about products in development and that is they want to limit sales losses to competitors.

Solid state batteries: Toyota has history of talking big on EV breakthrough, but not delivering (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/05/solid-state-batteries-toyota-has-history-of-talking-big-on-ev-breakthrough-but-not-delivering/)

Yep - 'Please don't buy an EV now' roughly translates to 'we've dropped the ball on this one and have nothing to offer you in the near future but our crappy diesels and ancient hybrid tech'

[DiscoDB]

As an example, Here is an excerpt from a research paper: Carbon Footprint Study of Tesla Model 3 - (Note: This research is based on 150,000km of driving)

Its never as cut and dry as they claim.



Hey Tombie - you will be pleased to know I actually did read that paper. [emoji851]

It is a good study in that it follows the same methodology that Volvo use in the Carbon Footprint report for their C40 Recharge. It also looks to align with the life cycle emissions comparison made by Mitsubishi with respect to BEV vs ICE for cars made and used in China.

But it is from 2019 and uses carbon footprint data from 2013 which is all a bit dated now. Which leads to a few problems with the assumptions they have used.

First is they appear to be using a power generation emission rate of over 1,100 gCO2e/kWh - which would be correct for brown coal power generation, but this is 80% higher than the emission rates now seen on average in China and Australia.

Second it assumes the Tesla 3 will average 26 kWh/100km - which would be a worse case usage. Real world usage is probably 40% less than this.

These two assumptions alone result in the claimed in usage emissions rate for the Tesla 3 being 2.5 times higher than what you would expect (if we assume power usage accounts for 95% of the in-use emissions), and so completely distorts the life cycle analysis.

Using an average of 18 kWh/100km and 600 gCO2e/kWh for power generation, and the Tesla 3 would have come out at a life cycle average of 195 gCO2e/km vs 322 gCO2e/km for the ICE used in the paper (or a 40% reduction over the 150,000 km).

Of course if they are using 2013 carbon footprint data, then the ICE life cycle emissions data is probably also over stated but it is very similar to what Volvo quote for the XC40 ICE (295 gCO2e/km vs 322 gCO2e/km used in the paper). So perhaps more like a 33% reduction in favour of the Tesla 3 if updating the ICE assumed values as well.

As you note, these studies are never as cut and dry as they appear as they are very much dependent on the assumptions being used, and where the power generation comes from.

Which is why both sides of the debate will always be able to come up with a study that supports their argument.

[NavyDiver]

I like Taiwan[biggrin] "ProLogium’s solid-state battery pack is much more compact and lightweight than a standard lithium battery, which means it’s better suited for EV applications, in particular, in electric motorcycles, where batteries must be compact and lightweight. Indeed, lowering weight and increasing energy density seem like the perfect marriage when it comes to electric motorcycle (https://www.rideapart.com/news/category/electric-motorcycles/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) batteries, but ProLogium’s claimed benefits don’t end here

At present, ProLogium’s new battery is slated to power heavy-duty machinery such as trains, boats, and other industrial vehicles. That said, testing of the battery on EVs—particularly electric cars—is slated to take place in Europe before 2023 draws to a close."+

Link to yarn (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/new-solid-state-battery-from-prologium-could-redefine-the-ev-world/ar-AA1ekLz6?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6648d97f21b74dba9ed15a167c2adc8c&ei=16)

Link to Company (https://prologium.com/)

Mercedes any one???[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]


I do not know if this is WAFFLE- Looking now at NYSE Prologis Inc (PLD) "117.37B $usd Market cap"
Never ever take investment advice from fools like me!!!!!! I do not own any and many not!!!!!!

I do hold a little Quantumscape market cap 4.15b $usd- I said never take investment advice from[bighmmm]

Triva I never heard of "MAHLE is a leading international development partner and supplier to the automotive industry with customers in both passenger car and commercial vehicle sectors. Founded in 1920, the technology group is working on the climate-neutral mobility of tomorrow, with a focus on the strategic areas of electrification and thermal management as well as further technology fields to reduce CO2 emissions, such as fuel cells or highly efficient combustion engines that also run on hydrogen or synthetic fuels. Today, one in every two vehicles globally is equipped with MAHLE components.
MAHLE generated sales of more than EUR 12 billion in 2022. The company is represented with approx. 72,000 employees at 152 production locations and 12 major research and development centers in more than 30 countries. (as of 31.12.2022)
#weshapefuturemobility"

Clearly I am slow[biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1emVmq.img?w=768&h=432&m=6
Tesla Cybertruck Spotted With Calibration Equipment In California
its not pretty![bigwhistle]

[DiscoDB]

A decent wrap will fix it…..

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230726/f8c12862480fe60cb26d1472bc3a1cc2.jpg

[NavyDiver]

This is interesting "(Reuters) - A group of major automakers on Wednesday said they were forming a new company to provide electric vehicle charging in the United States in a challenge to Tesla and a bid to take advantage of Biden administration subsidies.
The group includes General Motors, Stellantis, Hyundai Motor and its Kia affiliate, Honda, BMW and Mercedes Benz , brands representing about half of U.S. vehicle sales but a small share of the EV market dominated by Tesla."
Link (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/companies/in-challenge-to-tesla-major-automakers-launch-ev-charging-network/ar-AA1eonRZ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=6c6412adcf124fe6823db168cbf27ab7&ei=11)
Eletric Jesus will not be pleased[bigwhistle]

Wish but doubt that on the cards here yet.

EDIT- EU just topped this one with "EU Passes Law Requiring EV Fast Chargers Every 37 Miles On Major Highways"

Who get to pay for the EU ones ?

[Homestar]

Wow, someone’s going to make some money laying mega watts of power cables along the freeways. Cost would be bonkers expensive. All well and good mandating such thing but as you say - who’s putting their hands in their pockets to the tune of billions of euros.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yep - 'Please don't buy an EV now' roughly translates to 'we've dropped the ball on this one and have nothing to offer you in the near future but our crappy diesels and ancient hybrid tech'
It's a standard toyota playbook. Generate as much FUD as possible and hope they can persuade enough people to buy what they sell.

The problem is every new ICE vehicle on the road is with us for a long time. It's something that should be avoided where possible because we don't want to be in a place where we are paying people to scrap cars before their time.

GM, Toyota, & FCA Are Beyond Redemption — This Is Too Much! - CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/14/gm-toyota-fca-are-beyond-redemption-this-is-too-much/)

[Homestar]

I don’t think any Australian government would have the balls to force a car off the roads or even legislate to make it harder to keep them on the road. Australians have a live of the Automobile they’ll die to protect.

Remember when they just wanted motor cycles to have their headlights on when being ridden - I think when Jeff Kennett held the reigns - even he backed off when the lobby groups assembled and the **** hit the fan.

Imagine if someone was brave enough to come out and say ‘You’ve got 5 years before you have to have an EV’ or even ‘cars older than 10 years will start incurring higher rego fees’

They’d be a public hanging…

[NavyDiver]

I don’t think any Australian government would have the balls to force a car off the roads or even legislate to make it harder to keep them on the road. Australians have a live of the Automobile they’ll die to protect.

Remember when they just wanted motor cycles to have their headlights on when being ridden - I think when Jeff Kennett held the reigns - even he backed off when the lobby groups assembled and the **** hit the fan.

Imagine if someone was brave enough to come out and say ‘You’ve got 5 years before you have to have an EV’ or even ‘cars older than 10 years will start incurring higher rego fees’

They’d be a public hanging…

Your right - cost will be a major factor regardless for many.

Just did a WOW. "Victoria bans new homes from connecting to gas: announcement from state government Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio (afr.com) (https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/victoria-bans-new-homes-from-connecting-to-gas-20230728-p5dryz)"


I understand the cost and impacts of methane. Was not expecting a ban! [bigwhistle]

[DiscoDB]

Your right - cost will be a major factor regardless for many.

Just did a WOW. "Victoria bans new homes from connecting to gas: announcement from state government Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio (afr.com) (https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/victoria-bans-new-homes-from-connecting-to-gas-20230728-p5dryz)"


I understand the cost and impacts of methane. Was not expecting a ban! [bigwhistle]

This is Victoria……nothing surprises me.

As a reminder, make sure you get your $250 just for visiting the Victorian Energy Compare website. Round 2 is open until end of August.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I don’t think any Australian government would have the balls to force a car off the roads or even legislate to make it harder to keep them on the road. Australians have a live of the Automobile they’ll die to protect.

Remember when they just wanted motor cycles to have their headlights on when being ridden - I think when Jeff Kennett held the reigns - even he backed off when the lobby groups assembled and the **** hit the fan.

Imagine if someone was brave enough to come out and say ‘You’ve got 5 years before you have to have an EV’ or even ‘cars older than 10 years will start incurring higher rego fees’

They’d be a public hanging…
It's been done before. Will be a "Cash for clunkers" type thing. No one will force you to get rid of your ICE car, but they might give you a $$$$ incentive for a new one if they can crush your old one. I can't see it happening for several years, but I'm pretty confident it's going to be one of the measures they will use to incentivise people. ICE cars being sold right now will likely partake in the scheme.

Personally I don't think they'll have to push very hard. Once EV's are available at good prices and with many choices, the carging network matures, and people actually understand how they work I think people will naturally migrate to them. The only people who will continue to run ICE vehicles will be people who have a need with a genuine EV-ICE capability gap and can afford the cost premium to run an ICE vehicle.

One sample from Aus but I'm sure it's happened multiple times. Plus many places around the world.

New Cash-for-clunkers Pilot Scheme Announced For Victoria, Australia - Auto Recycling World (https://autorecyclingworld.com/new-cash-for-clunkers-pilot-scheme-announced-for-victoria-australia/#:~:text=Daniel%20Andrews%2C%20Victorian%20Premier %2C%20recently,into%20newer%20and%20safer%20cars.)

[Tote]

It's been done before. Will be a "Cash for clunkers" type thing. No one will force you to get rid of your ICE car, but they might give you a $$$$ incentive for a new one if they can crush your old one. I can't see it happening for several years, but I'm pretty confident it's going to be one of the measures they will use to incentivise people. ICE cars being sold right now will likely partake in the scheme.

Personally I don't think they'll have to push very hard. Once EV's are available at good prices and with many choices, the carging network matures, and people actually understand how they work I think people will naturally migrate to them. The only people who will continue to run ICE vehicles will be people who have a need with a genuine EV-ICE capability gap and can afford the cost premium to run an ICE vehicle.

One sample from Aus but I'm sure it's happened multiple times. Plus many places around the world.

New Cash-for-clunkers Pilot Scheme Announced For Victoria, Australia - Auto Recycling World (https://autorecyclingworld.com/new-cash-for-clunkers-pilot-scheme-announced-for-victoria-australia/#:~:text=Daniel%20Andrews%2C%20Victorian%20Premier %2C%20recently,into%20newer%20and%20safer%20cars.)

I wonder if they had schemes to pay you money to eat your horse in the 1930s ? [biggrin]

Regards,
Tote

[DiscoDB]

I wonder if they had schemes to pay you money to eat your horse in the 1930s ? [biggrin]

Regards,
Tote

They did - it was called the Great Depression. [emoji849]

[Homestar]

They did - it was called the Great Depression. [emoji849]

The thought of having to drive an EV gives me Great Depression. [emoji56]

[NavyDiver]

The thought of having to drive an EV gives me Great Depression. [emoji56]
Have to try it perhaps before you dish it? Each to their own of course! Time for a coffee some time and a quiet drive[thumbsupbig]

Noted the Electric Jesus (loved that and borrowed forever with thanks[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin])

Cheated and has range shown well over what range was possible news!!

My MG has the same lie or malfunction. That Electric Jesus knew is interesting[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

My range display is under quoted if driven at 40kph avg and massively under quoted at 100kph 250 ish is about 200km!

I guess IF I wanted my money back I could have been grumpy [biggrin]

Electric Jesus might have a few billion to pay for his fibs????

[Homestar]

I’ve driven quite a few, they go great, but the thought of having to live with one isn’t so great.

[TonyC]

So, will the electric Land Cruiser make it across Darwin Harbour?

'''Rust bucket''' 1978 LandCruiser converted to EV to drive 7km under water across Darwin Harbour — again - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-22/underwater-drive-darwin-harbour-aims-for-new-world-record/102622048)

Were the diesel one failed 35 years ago

How a car drove across the sea floor of Darwin Harbour 35 years ago - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-18/how-a-car-drove-across-darwin-harbour-35-years-ago/10009608)


Will this prove EVs are better off road 😉

[NavyDiver]

So, will the electric Land Cruiser make it across Darwin Harbour?

'''Rust bucket''' 1978 LandCruiser converted to EV to drive 7km under water across Darwin Harbour — again - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-22/underwater-drive-darwin-harbour-aims-for-new-world-record/102622048)

Were the diesel one failed 35 years ago

How a car drove across the sea floor of Darwin Harbour 35 years ago - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-18/how-a-car-drove-across-darwin-harbour-35-years-ago/10009608)


Will this prove EVs are better off road 😉

I'd still take a o- boat[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[4bee]

They did - it was called the Great Depression. [emoji849]



I believe eating one's horse started about WW2, indeed the French apparently still do it which is not a surprise & have Horse Butcher Shops around the place still, & easily identified by having a Horse's head hanging on the sign board out front.

I suppose that is where the Pub name "The Nags head" started in the UK.

In Oz it was called "The Horses Arse".


TiC:Rolling:

[4bee]

I'd still take a o- boat[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]



Ah, the Old "I'd like to get you on the slow (O) boat to China" Nothing personal you understand, it's a song from the 40s, 50s 60s ish.

"goes on, "all to myself alone" Gets worse eh?[bigrolf]

Peggy Lee & Bing Crosby - Slow boat to China - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjKkdRwbAEs)

[TonyC]

So, will the electric Land Cruiser make it across Darwin Harbour?

'''Rust bucket''' 1978 LandCruiser converted to EV to drive 7km under water across Darwin Harbour — again - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-22/underwater-drive-darwin-harbour-aims-for-new-world-record/102622048)

Were the diesel one failed 35 years ago

How a car drove across the sea floor of Darwin Harbour 35 years ago - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-18/how-a-car-drove-across-darwin-harbour-35-years-ago/10009608)


Will this prove EVs are better off road 😉

Well they made it, it took 12 hours to cover 7km

LandCruiser '''Mudcrab''' driven 7km under water across Darwin Harbour - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-30/nt-world-record-darwin-underwater-drive/102665924)

[Homestar]

So no surprises here really - Tesla’s secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints (https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/)

Cheaper to pay some poor Muppet to divert an appointment rather than actually address the customers concerns.

[NavyDiver]

have to say it was a adventure


https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/05f30b1101939fa8f8a4d6cbf0875741?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=2816&cropW=5006&xPos=0&yPos=0&width=862&height=485


LandCruiser 'Mudcrab' driven 7km under water across Darwin Harbour - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-07-30/nt-world-record-darwin-underwater-drive/102665924)

Floating over pipeline or when bogged is Diving cool! The bit about curious crocodiles did cross my mind :)

A while ago some one questioned making my boat electric. Still waiting for the power option I need- DOH

[johnp38]

Runaway 500 EV meltdown on cargo ship: Proof our cities aren't ready for full EV deployment - YouTube (https://youtu.be/GZ9-mW-cmdE)

Just came across this, was on LR Times and spotted in side panel.

[Homestar]

While I like quite a lot of John’s work, this video isn’t one of them. When the original video went to air (now gone) he made assumptions about the cause (EV’s) when there was no proof of this at the time. Was a bit of gutter journalism like so many others. This linked video has some corrections in it and it’s quite different to the original so he must have figured out it wasn’t his best work.

[johnp38]

While I like quite a lot of John’s work, this video isn’t one of them. When the original video went to air (now gone) he made assumptions about the cause (EV’s) when there was no proof of this at the time. Was a bit of gutter journalism like so many others. This linked video has some corrections in it and it’s quite different to the original so he must have figured out it wasn’t his best work.

There was an original?

I'm not subscribed to this guy as I know what you mean about his assumptions and sometimes inflammatory comments.

But one thing is regardless of how it started they are going to have to come up with solutions to this type of multi EV fire situation, especially if it happened in a multi-storey car park.

[Homestar]

Yes. I watched one on Friday night and couldn’t find it last night when you posted the link but it is there again now so maybe I just missed it. The ship caught fire 4 days ago and his original video was when no firefighter had set foot on the ship and he said it was likely that a thermal runaway from an EV caused the fire when there was no data at all about the potential cause of it - which was the same line being fed out by mainstream media at the time so I’m guessing he based his video off these reports.

he also has a go in this video about ‘it doesn’t matter what caused the fire’ and some stuff on battery fires - which I do agree with - nasty stuff.

It’s more about him jumping the gun and not being unbiased like I’ve found him to be rather than what happened. I think it’s clear now the batteries from 500 EV’s are causing huge issues.

[4bee]

Yes. I watched one on Friday night and couldn’t find it last night when you posted the link but it is there again now so maybe I just missed it. The ship caught fire 4 days ago and his original video was when no firefighter had set foot on the ship and he said it was likely that a thermal runaway from an EV caused the fire when there was no data at all about the potential cause of it - which was the same line being fed out by mainstream media at the time so I’m guessing he based his video off these reports.

he also has a go in this video about ‘it doesn’t matter what caused the fire’ and some stuff on battery fires - which I do agree with - nasty stuff.

It’s more about him jumping the gun and not being unbiased like I’ve found him to be rather than what happened. I think it’s clear now the batteries from 500 EV’s are causing huge issues.


Maybe the cars should be sold with a Bonus RNLI Lifeboat for each.
In their favour they have ICE engines. ie. Diesels.

[NavyDiver]

Not suggesting fires are not from the old school battery. That said. Fires on ships may start for many reasons. A bit like the helicopter crash in QLD. It may be the MRH-90 or may be the very very tricky work Defense Force people do training especially at night above, on or under the water.
RIP all aircrew!


Back to batteries Not fully Solid state! Delivery starts this year!

"Nio’s battery supplier WeLion has delivered the first of its advanced battery cells (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/future-tech/100-miles-electric-range-five-minutes-its-getting-closer-new-battery) to the Chinese electric car maker. Nio had promised to start deliveries of EVs with its 150kWh battery packs in the first half of this year after revising deadlines. And, shock horror, it’s actually happening.The semi-solid-state battery cells are more energy dense than those before it. Featuring a solid electrolyte, a silicon graphite composition anode and a nickel-heavy cathode, the cells have an energy density of 360Wh/kg. To give that some context, Tesla’s 4680-cell battery – considered the best on the market for a long time – has 272-296Wh/kg.



The more remarkable feature is that vehicles fitted with the new pack, according to China News EV Post (https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/01/nio-gets-cells-from-welion-150-kwh-to-begin-july/), weigh ‘only 20 kilos more than before’.
The Nio ET7 (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/nio-et7-has-621-miles-range-and-all-battery) is one of the models expected to feature a giant battery, capable of over 600 miles of range on one charge. It’s a veritable challenger to the Mercedes EQXX (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mercedes-vision-eqxx-has-driven-over-1000km-single-charge) and Lucid Air, (https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/lucid/air) set to arrive in Europe later in the summer.

"
Chat yesterday with Sparky- New company same ledgend Solar Specialists | Victoria | Everest Energy (https://www.everestenergy.com.au/)

Going to adding as much solar for me at work as will fit. Heard about an interesting sodium battery tech they are now tech support for.

It may be this one "In 2016, Faradion made electrive news when British companies Faradion and AGM Batteries received a 38.2m pound cash injection from Innovate UK to develop a prototype of a sodium-ion battery for electric cars by 2018 with the goal of commercialising the technology by 2025. In 2017, we reported that the British company was working on a cheap sodium-ion EV battery and was able to raise 3.2m pounds in additional funding. The money was to be used to demonstrate that the technology is suitable for serial production."


A few are installed in a Beta Mode here in Australia. NOT suitable for EV as they are heavy! link to the battery Stationary Energy Storage - Faradion (https://faradion.co.uk/applications/stationary-energy-storage/)

Back to EV or FCEV cars Nothing yet to tow my boat!!!!! No battery big enough and light enough to take me far off shore and back - Or perhaps a supercapacitor rumour just may :)

[4bee]

Not suggesting fires are not from the old school battery. That said. Fires on ships may start for many reasons. A bit like the helicopter crash in QLD. It may be the MRH-90 or may be the very very tricky work Defense Force people do training especially at night above, on or under the water.
RIP all aircrew!


Back to batteries Not fully Solid state! Delivery starts this year!

"Nio’s battery supplier WeLion has delivered the first of its advanced battery cells (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/future-tech/100-miles-electric-range-five-minutes-its-getting-closer-new-battery) to the Chinese electric car maker. Nio had promised to start deliveries of EVs with its 150kWh battery packs in the first half of this year after revising deadlines. And, shock horror, it’s actually happening.The semi-solid-state battery cells are more energy dense than those before it. Featuring a solid electrolyte, a silicon graphite composition anode and a nickel-heavy cathode, the cells have an energy density of 360Wh/kg. To give that some context, Tesla’s 4680-cell battery – considered the best on the market for a long time – has 272-296Wh/kg.



The more remarkable feature is that vehicles fitted with the new pack, according to China News EV Post (https://cnevpost.com/2023/07/01/nio-gets-cells-from-welion-150-kwh-to-begin-july/), weigh ‘only 20 kilos more than before’.
The Nio ET7 (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/nio-et7-has-621-miles-range-and-all-battery) is one of the models expected to feature a giant battery, capable of over 600 miles of range on one charge. It’s a veritable challenger to the Mercedes EQXX (https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/mercedes-vision-eqxx-has-driven-over-1000km-single-charge) and Lucid Air, (https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/lucid/air) set to arrive in Europe later in the summer.

"
Chat yesterday with Sparky- New company same ledgend Solar Specialists | Victoria | Everest Energy (https://www.everestenergy.com.au/)

Going to adding as much solar for me at work as will fit. Heard about an interesting sodium battery tech they are now tech support for.

It may be this one "In 2016, Faradion made electrive news when British companies Faradion and AGM Batteries received a 38.2m pound cash injection from Innovate UK to develop a prototype of a sodium-ion battery for electric cars by 2018 with the goal of commercialising the technology by 2025. In 2017, we reported that the British company was working on a cheap sodium-ion EV battery and was able to raise 3.2m pounds in additional funding. The money was to be used to demonstrate that the technology is suitable for serial production."


A few are installed in a Beta Mode here in Australia. NOT suitable for EV as they are heavy! link to the battery Stationary Energy Storage - Faradion (https://faradion.co.uk/applications/stationary-energy-storage/)

Back to EV or FCEV cars Nothing yet to tow my boat!!!!! No battery big enough and light enough to take me far off shore and back - Or perhaps a supercapacitor rumour just may :)



MY CONSPIRACY theory, indeed my first ever on here. So shoot me.[bigrolf]


I find it a bit "odd" that this has occurred while a Chinese Intel Gathering vessel fitted with who knows what electronics, was apparently off the coast in that area.


Would they really want the cabin & it's instruments/electronics bearing in mind it was an older AC.? Did the main body breakaway when it hit the drink? Also has come to light that an Engine System upgrade may not have been carried out as apparently many were & many missed out. Cuts the engine & could be delivered electronically maybe even by Laser.


Has it been salvaged by the Chinese already? Planned Underwater salvage like has happened with WW2 Battleships etc. where even giant 16" & 18" guns have disappeared from wrecks without anyone noticing, only the thieves.


As there are seemingly stacks of ASW vessel& aircraft in the area even one of the new Posiden(?) Jets from Adelaide was Tasked in the search ( courtesy of Flight Tracker.)
Some thing still feels quite wrong with this "Prang".
Are we being told everything?

I hope I am wrong but who knows these touchy days?

[Tote]

An interesting take on the reliability of EVs charged at home in Qld. It is possible that if you decided to buy an EV that you would implement solar/batteries to provide the current, but the ability for electricity companies to load shed you on a hot Queensland evening might leave you with a sour taste in the morning when you have no charge to get to work.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/home-ev-charging-may-be-controlled-by-authorities/?utm_campaign=syndication&utm_source=smh.com.au&utm_content=article_1&utm_medium=partner

Regards,
Tote

[NavyDiver]

An interesting take on the reliability of EVs charged at home in Qld. It is possible that if you decided to buy an EV that you would implement solar/batteries to provide the current, but the ability for electricity companies to load shed you on a hot Queensland evening might leave you with a sour taste in the morning when you have no charge to get to work.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/home-ev-charging-may-be-controlled-by-authorities/?utm_campaign=syndication&utm_source=smh.com.au&utm_content=article_1&utm_medium=partner

Regards,
Tote

Its going to be a huge issue perhaps. The ability to shut down solar export and the Solar system itself via remote inverter control is already happening in places South Oz? [bigwhistle]
The number of EVs is slow here despite growth rates being pumped as huge [biggrin]

Electric vehicle sales across the country surge with over 45,000 sold in first half of 2023Its about a million other cars per year[bigwhistle]



Biggest issue for some is Solar panels switched off by energy authorities to stabilise South Australian electricity grid - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-17/solar-panels-switched-off-in-sa-to-stabilise-grid/13256572)


And QLD

"A new rule that will require large numbers of Queensland rooftop solar systems to be fitted with “mid-20th Century” technology has been slammed by industry and peak bodies as outdated, reckless and likely to impose “significant extra costs” on consumers and installers.Energy Queensland has revealed (https://www.epw.qld.gov.au/about/initiatives/emergency-backstop-mechanism) that from February 6, 2023, new and replacement rooftop solar and battery storage systems of 10kW and over will be fitted with a generation signalling device that will allow the state’s network operators to switch these PV systems off, remotely, if needed.
The generation signalling device, also referred to as “ripple control,” is Energy Queensland’s answer to the increasingly pressing problem of large amounts of daytime solar exports sending operational demand so low as to threaten system security."

And WA
Emergency Solar Management (www.wa.gov.au (https://www.wa.gov.au/organisation/energy-policy-wa/emergency-solar-management#:~:text=All%20new%20and%20upgraded%20so lar%20PV%20and%20battery,turned%20down%20or%20swit ched%20off%20in%20emergency%20situations.))

"The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) recommended the measure as a means of mitigating the threat to grid security posed by the rapid growth of rooftop solar, which has led to days of very low demand."

My work Victron Inverter Chargers are no longer Complient I heard yesterday.[biggrin] They are certified so they stay put. I was thinking of moving them to my home. They cannot be controlled by others happily. Not that I export except for a bit on Sunday perhaps.

[4bee]

Its going to be a huge issue perhaps. The ability to shut down solar export and the Solar system itself via remote inverter control is already happening in places South Oz?
The number of EVs is slow here despite growth rates being pumped as huge [biggrin]

[B]Electric vehicle sales across the country surge with over 45,000 sold in first half of 2023

Its about a million other cars per year[bigwhistle]



Biggest issue for some is Solar panels switched off by energy authorities to stabilise South Australian electricity grid - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-17/solar-panels-switched-off-in-sa-to-stabilise-grid/13256572)


And QLD

"A new rule that will require large numbers of Queensland rooftop solar systems to be fitted with “mid-20th Century” technology has been slammed by industry and peak bodies as outdated, reckless and likely to impose “significant extra costs” on consumers and installers.Energy Queensland has revealed (https://www.epw.qld.gov.au/about/initiatives/emergency-backstop-mechanism) that from February 6, 2023, new and replacement rooftop solar and battery storage systems of 10kW and over will be fitted with a generation signalling device that will allow the state’s network operators to switch these PV systems off, remotely, if needed.
The generation signalling device, also referred to as “ripple control,” is Energy Queensland’s answer to the increasingly pressing problem of large amounts of daytime solar exports sending operational demand so low as to threaten system security."

And WA
Emergency Solar Management ( (https://www.wa.gov.au/organisation/energy-policy-wa/emergency-solar-management#:~:text=All%20new%20and%20upgraded%20so lar%20PV%20and%20battery,turned%20down%20or%20swit ched%20off%20in%20emergency%20situations.)www.wa.g ov.au (http://www.wa.gov.au))

"The Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) recommended the measure as a means of mitigating the threat to grid security posed by the rapid growth of rooftop solar, which has led to days of very low demand."

My work Victron Inverter Chargers are no longer Complient I heard yesterday.[biggrin] They are certified so they stay put. I was thinking of moving them to my home. They cannot be controlled by others happily. Not that I export except for a bit on Sunday perhaps. .


I do not trust anybody/business that has remote access to my Power accounts via Digital Meters.
as opposed to the Meter bloke calling in days of yore, press a few "odd" keys & one's account could jump to where they make a huge profit if done Australia wide. Who can oversee their actions? What safeguards are in place?

They can fiddle with our accounts & play merry Hell with one's bank Statement.

[3toes]

I find the EU effort to take a high position with attempting to tax non EU countries that emit more co2 in manufacturing a little hard to take. They after all drove those manufacturing processes out of the EU to these countries by legislation knowing full well that they were just moving the pollution elsewhere

Am a believer in the polluter pays principal as this is proven to cause changes in behavior. Whether this is a change for the better is of course up for debate. Why is a power station put a couple of hundred miles from the city that uses the pollution?

It should be in the place where the highest consumption is. While easy with a power plant this would of course require some rethinking of cities with food production

[scarry]

A bit of EV reality and fires here.A bit of language,so probably not for children,Mods remove if not suitable.

*** Link removed due to naughty words ***

Mod edit - Search for John Cadogan 500 EV fire and you'll find it.

[NavyDiver]

This was not unexpected!

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1456,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:s teep/https%3A%2F%2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Feb9dc93 2-5c4e-4846-9a7a-59377acf99bd_1280x929.png

[Homestar]

Won’t be the last time Tesla is overtaken by others. That’s not even a go at Tesla as I think they’ve done more for EV development than any so far but with global OEM’s starting to really ramp up production they won’t stay anywhere near the top in the next 5 years I don’t think.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Won’t be the last time Tesla is overtaken by others. That’s not even a go at Tesla as I think they’ve done more for EV development than any so far but with global OEM’s starting to really ramp up production they won’t stay anywhere near the top in the next 5 years I don’t think.
The difficulty for legacy manufacturers is they are going to have to make up a big gap technically, and with manufacturing while their existing ICE markets are failing. Yes they have a lot of assets, but they are assets for making ICE cars. And they have debt to feed.

So not only have they got to come up with cracking products that people want to buy, while getting their supply chain and manufacturing sorted, they need to make good money on these cars. Meanwhile, Tesla and the Chinese EV manufacturers are not waiting around.

Personally I can't see the smaller japanese companies surviving without being acquired, and I can't see the big ones making it without being nationalised.

[JDNSW]

Actually, looking at the car industry as a whole, and over the life of the industry, it is almost unheard of for any manufacturer to consistently make money in real terms without, protection, subsidies or creative accounting (or all of the above).

Countries tend to bail out their own manufacturers, often treating them as "to big to allow to fail".

So predicting "Personally I can't see the smaller japanese companies surviving without being acquired, and I can't see the big ones making it without being nationalised." is a fairly safe prediction.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Actually, looking at the car industry as a whole, and over the life of the industry, it is almost unheard of for any manufacturer to consistently make money in real terms without, protection, subsidies or creative accounting (or all of the above).

Countries tend to bail out their own manufacturers, often treating them as "to big to allow to fail".

So predicting "Personally I can't see the smaller japanese companies surviving without being acquired, and I can't see the big ones making it without being nationalised." is a fairly safe prediction.
Thanks! [bigsmile1]

Nationalising of car makers does happen but it's still a big deal. Toyota I'm looking at you. If you like Mazda and Subaru buy one soon.

Given the Chinese are essentially government owned, it's going to be hard for privately owned companies to compete

Inside the dragon: the Ningde MG factory (https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/inside-the-dragon-the-ningde-mg-factory)

[PhilipA]

Toyota owns 20% of Subaru.
regards PhilipA

[3toes]

The French car manufacturers are already saying the EU needs to either put import tariffs on Chinese cars or subsidies be paid to them for as they are not able to compete. Without this support the EU car industry will be gone in a decade

[NavyDiver]

The French car manufacturers are already saying the EU needs to either put import tariffs on Chinese cars or subsidies be paid to them for as they are not able to compete. Without this support the EU car industry will be gone in a decade
Holden moment?

It's some time required for defense and other issues to have a domestic capability. It may be a economic or national pride thing also at times. Apparently, there was a bet on the outcome between Pres Macron and the PM here. I guess many would recall the same the same arguments against Japanese cars in 60s, 70s and onwards. The political or economic side might be a bit spicy for a general chat so excuse me if I am over the line mods.


The French Press is kindly supporting our Football heroes who beat France last night here. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Just fun not politics.

Going for a test drive in a MG4 Thursday. as normal Australia is very late to the party[bighmmm] EU got them over a year ago!

I am not getting a MG4. I have to get the deposit I paid for one back via the test drive.[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Regards from the slow place

[4bee]

Holden moment?

It's some time required for defense and other issues to have a domestic capability. It may be a economic or national pride thing also at times. Apparently, there was a bet on the outcome between Pres Macron and the PM here. I guess many would recall the same the same arguments against Japanese cars in 60s, 70s and onwards. The political or economic side might be a bit spicy for a general chat so excuse me if I am over the line mods.


The French Press is kindly supporting our Football heroes who beat France last night here. [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] Just fun not politics.

Going for a test drive in a MG4 Thursday. as normal Australia is very late to the party[bighmmm] EU got them over a year ago!

I am not getting a MG4. I have to get the deposit I paid for one back via the test drive.[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Regards from the slow place


After you have calmed down about your test drive you may be asking yourself why the **** you even considered it in the first place.[bighmmm] [bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

After you have calmed down about your test drive you may be asking yourself why the **** you even considered it in the first place.[bighmmm] [bigrolf]

I know that one Des. The range of my current ZX Ev is just over 200km at 100kph. The 306km from home to mum and dads is with Chemo runs 666 ish([bigrolf][bigrolf] [B]I did that estimate deliberately)

Fast Charge points did not occur until a few weeks ago. The three years I have been doing that number has been a Pain yet cost a lot less than my much loved Disco cost. Fully appreciate no fuel stops needed at all in my First d3 with long range tank!

I do miss chatting with Owen Craig and crew at Ritters LD honestly.
The 666 is a chuckle as my aunty would be horrified [bigrolf] I am stirring the pot sorry. Please do not be offended by my dig at a Nun!

[RANDLOVER]

I know that one Des. The range of my current ZX Ev .......

They are becoming more popular, in my street there is a Tesla (Model X maybe, looks like a big hatchback) and a Polestar 2 and around the corner somewhere a MG ZX all electric.

[4bee]

I know that one Des. The range of my current ZX Ev is just over 200km at 100kph. The 306km from home to mum and dads is with Chemo runs 666 ish([bigrolf][bigrolf] [B]I did that estimate deliberately)

Fast Charge points did not occur until a few weeks ago. The three years I have been doing that number has been a Pain yet cost a lot less than my much loved Disco cost. Fully appreciate no fuel stops needed at all in my First d3 with long range tank!

I do miss chatting with Owen Craig and crew at Ritters LD honestly.
The 666 is a chuckle as my aunty would be horrified [bigrolf] I am stirring the pot sorry. Please do not be offended by my dig at a Nun!


Bless you my son.

Nun? Your aunty?

My FiL was very familiar with VAT 69 & claimed it was the Pope's phone #. I was a wake up to that one.[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Bless you my son.

Nun? Your aunty?

My FiL was very familiar with VAT 69 & claimed it was the Pope's phone #. I was a wake up to that one.[bigrolf]


Bless my soul Dess I saw a growth number of 385% in EV and apparently the QLDers are the main offenders not down here in Mexico [biggrin][biggrin]

I'm a bishop- DO NOT KISS MY RING [bigrolf]

[4bee]

Bless my soul Dess I saw a growth number of 385% in EV and apparently the QLDers are the main offenders not down here in Mexico [biggrin][biggrin]

I'm a bishop- DO NOT KISS MY RING [bigrolf] I can guarantee that won't happen sez me.[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Saddly I know which EV 4wd is NOT suitable as a DISCO replacement yet.

The Rivian R1S has accomplished a monumental feat. The SUV is now the first production electric vehicle to conquer the Rubicon Trail, claims Rivian. The trail is widely known as one of the most challenging off-road trails in the world.Rivian’s test and development team left early on Monday, August 7, from the Loon Lake entrance. It then took them roughly eight hours to drive the Rivian R1S (https://insideevs.com/rivian/r1s/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) over a 12-mile stretch, driving over steep inclines, rocky obstacles, and boulders, to reach the Tahoma staging area.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/rivian-r1s-braves-the-rubicon-trail-first-production-ev-to-accomplish-the-feat/ar-AA1fjrIv?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=91526a3a2f404ccd841cdf640137cca8&ei=25

12 miles and used 70% if its battery!!![bigwhistle] 4wd capacity is good. Did it in AT's not MTs.


Waiting until next year or Next [bawl][bawl] DOH

[NavyDiver]

Come in Spinner[bighmmm]

I did sign for the MG4. MG XSev is now for sale or to be traded in. Oct /Nov likley delivery date.

why-

one pedal driving- XS has regen braking which stops at about 10kph then I need to use brakes!
Rear wheel drive was much nicer
range will be over 400 not assuming the WTLP rubbish of course
1/4 hit at most for trade in value of the XS ev!
Price was 2k below what I was told when I put the deposit.


The I shouldn't have is I still want a Disco replacement BEV FCEV[bawl]

[PhilipA]

I just was reading the latest Open Road and some of the comments by EV enthusiasts were laughable.

One poster "an Engineer" wrote that soon we would be able to induction charge an EV "like a mobile phone" so towing a caravan and unhitching to charge was not a problem!

The next poster said that soon caravans would be available with their own batteries and electric motors and an "intelligent towbar that would give acceleration and braking assist. WOW!
At what cost and what weight?

It will be a brave new world in 12 years time for sure.
Regards PhilipA

[3toes]

There have been a couple of companies touting the induction charge through the road you are driving on. All have failed during trials so more worked required there before can be put into daily use

The reality is that the electric car Achilles heel is to some extent range but more about the time it takes to recharge. There are lots of businesses attempting to convince the world they have solved this one. Most seem to be chucking up promising press releases so they can sucking up more research grants

One of them has to strike gold for this battery charging issue to be solved. Have to solve it before hydrogen is miniaturised enough for cracking to take place in the vehicle which is also consuming research grants. Heavy truck and taxi in Europe are already moving to hydrogen as battery does not work for them

Race is on to see who can do their thing first

[NavyDiver]

I just was reading the latest Open Road and some of the comments by EV enthusiasts were laughable.

One poster "an Engineer" wrote that soon we would be able to induction charge an EV "like a mobile phone" so towing a caravan and unhitching to charge was not a problem!

The next poster said that soon caravans would be available with their own batteries and electric motors and an "intelligent towbar that would give acceleration and braking assist. WOW!
At what cost and what weight?

It will be a brave new world in 12 years time for sure.
Regards PhilipA

We all can see a Lot of rubbish claimed Phillip.

It is very frustrating given the issues that are clearly in our faces. Running today listening to BBC World Service - World Business Report, Drought-hit Panama canal extends restrictions (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0g79wq9)

The 20ish year drought is going to be a pain anywhere! Mersk shipping might be the biggest shipping consumer of the current bunker oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_oil)? Even they are moving. It will not be easy1

[Arapiles]

World’s first ‘superfast’ battery offers 400km range from 10 mins charge | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/battery-range-record-ev-b2394594.html)

Meet Shenxing: CATL'''s new EV battery that charges in 10 mins (https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/shenxing-catls-new-ev-battery-charges-10-mins)


The claim is that these will be in cars next year.

[Homestar]

World’s first ‘superfast’ battery offers 400km range from 10 mins charge | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/battery-range-record-ev-b2394594.html)

Meet Shenxing: CATL'''s new EV battery that charges in 10 mins (https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/shenxing-catls-new-ev-battery-charges-10-mins)


The claim is that these will be in cars next year.

I’ll call BS on this straight away even if the batteries can be made.

Say the car has a 100KWH battery so 80% is 80KWH, which can be done no dramas with current super chargers in less than an hour.

To do that in 10 minutes you’ll need a charger capable of delivering 480KW of power! Holt crap - a lot of people wouldn’t be able to lift a 2 meter section of the cable that would be required for this let alone finding that kind of power from the grid to do it with.

If we work at the top end and say the DC battery pack voltage in the EV is 800 volts that’s a current draw of 600 amps. That’s 240 square mm cable required to pass that sort of current which weighs 2.3Kg per meter so even a 2 meter charging cable will be over 10kg - easy for you and me, but how’s an older person going to go with that? If the battery voltage was 400 volts which is common in a lot of smaller cars then that’s 1200 amps that needs to flow to do this 10 minute charge - around 20Kg of cable. Even if you could find more than a handful of places where there’s enough power to put in more than one of these chargers they become unusable.

It’s laughable but people keep eating this **** up because they don’t know any better and rather than believe someone who can make the calculations and understands what actually needs to happen, they’ll believe a ‘journalist’ - and I use the term loosely - who’s only job it is is to write click bait to make someone bring in more ad revenue to their site.

[NavyDiver]

I’ll call BS on this straight away even if the batteries can be made.

Say the car has a 100KWH battery so 80% is 80KWH, which can be done no dramas with current super chargers in less than an hour.

To do that in 10 minutes you’ll need a charger capable of delivering 480KW of power! Holt crap - a lot of people wouldn’t be able to lift a 2 meter section of the cable that would be required for this let alone finding that kind of power from the grid to do it with.

If we work at the top end and say the DC battery pack voltage in the EV is 800 volts that’s a current draw of 600 amps. That’s 240 square mm cable required to pass that sort of current which weighs 2.3Kg per meter so even a 2 meter charging cable will be over 10kg - easy for you and me, but how’s an older person going to go with that? If the battery voltage was 400 volts which is common in a lot of smaller cars then that’s 1200 amps that needs to flow to do this 10 minute charge - around 20Kg of cable. Even if you could find more than a handful of places where there’s enough power to put in more than one of these chargers they become unusable.

It’s laughable but people keep eating this **** up because they don’t know any better and rather than believe someone who can make the calculations and understands what actually needs to happen, they’ll believe a ‘journalist’ - and I use the term loosely - who’s only job it is is to write click bait to make someone bring in more ad revenue to their site.

Interesting thank. The New CCS chargers in Camperdown and Geelong do already have very heavy cables. Camperdown and Geelong are both only 50kW per hour. RACY Torquay and Ballarat have 350kwh and others. There doesn't seem to be any change in the cables. They are Much heavier than the 7 and 22khw AC type cables.

I fully agree some people would struggle with the current CCS charge cables weight and stiffness.

[scarry]

It would want to have some super Heavy Duty plug on the car if it is going to need 600Amps[bigrolf]

Blind Freddy can see it is never going to happen for cars,trucks in a workshop maybe.

Dropped the van off at Toyota for a service yesterday,and there is a brand new EV charger there,with Toyota plastered all over it.

It has two charging leads and 50mm conduit for the power,just for interest.

Seems QBuild here are changing all their cars over to EV's.
One of the supervisors was telling me they are a PITA,having to wait an hour at least for them to get some charge,and just hope when they get to a charger,they are not being used and others already waiting.
They take them home but wont charge them at home as it is to difficult to work out exact power cost,and won't get reimbursed for the power used anyway.
Just another dumb idea to make the Govt look good,and look like they are doing the right thing.

He also said the new ones have solar panels in the roof.
The one he has is Korean thing i think.Very small,probably smaller than a Corolla.

[RANDLOVER]

......
Dropped the van off at Toyota for a service yesterday,and there is a brand new EV charger there,with Toyota plastered all over it.

It has two charging leads and 50mm conduit for the power,just for interest.
...........

I was thinking about this the other day, and it occurred to me that it might be good to hasten the spread of EV chargers if every dealer selling EV's had to install a charger.

[PhilipA]

But then it would become a profit centre and they would charge big$ for casual charging.
I know dealers. Ming Moll territory.
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

I was thinking about this the other day, and it occurred to me that it might be good to hasten the spread of EV chargers if every dealer selling EV's had to install a charger.

i think the reality is if they sell Ev's they will need a bank of chargers,maybe at least a dozen.
But they won't have enough mains power,nor will the street,so then it will be up to Energex to put in more transformers,then on it goes.

Some have no idea how much power Ev's need,and if they are talking fast charging,the power just won't be available.

[3toes]

There is a good reason why the electric vehicle manufacturers are not going into the charging network business. If it was profitable they would

Local council installed a lot of chargers about 5 years ago to support drivers who had these vehicles as no one else was and they were the weakest link when pushed by vested interests for who was going to build the charging network. These are now all out of date and have to be replaced. Millions of rates payers funds being spent when it should be private enterprise wearing the cost

I am though amused by the electric vehicle owners who thought the charging was free and complain they have to pay

[PhilipA]

Last night I viewed a vlog by a UK reader who had a Taycan and had hit an object on the expressway. he had several battery overheating messages when next charging.
his appointment at a Porsche dealer was "next week" so he did a google and found that a USA Taycan owner had a similar experience leaving a 3CM damage to the undertray and was quoted USD50,000 for a new battery.
Moral of the story is be very very careful when you drive that you don't run over anything dropped on the road.
Regards PhilipA

I had an ACCIDENT You'll nEVer believe THE SHOCKING COST of REPLACING the BATTERY on my ELECTRIC CAR - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDT3GWM88t8)

[NavyDiver]

There is a good reason why the electric vehicle manufacturers are not going into the charging network business. If it was profitable they would

Local council installed a lot of chargers about 5 years ago to support drivers who had these vehicles as no one else was and they were the weakest link when pushed by vested interests for who was going to build the charging network. These are now all out of date and have to be replaced. Millions of rates payers funds being spent when it should be private enterprise wearing the cost

I am though amused by the electric vehicle owners who thought the charging was free and complain they have to pay

30 years ago a 186 computer then 286- 386 486..... todays watch or phone have 100 times that processor power. [thumbsupbig]

The poor sods who put a 7kWh charge point have a several hour charge option only. That is now and was really suitable for home or motel like places. Even shopping centres are not places I like spending more than 30 minutes at[biggrin][biggrin]

Used a quick top up at Airport West Vic after a drive to Ballan from Melbourne. $4.38 9.14 Kwh during a 10min toilet brake. If that had been ones your referring to I would have been there for an hour. Many or most of those 7kWh are tesla destination Chargers([B]TDC). I think Councils may have funded for parking and signage only? Port Fairy motel has one for customers as do one in Portland Vic. I use them while running a Marathon[biggrin] Slowly!
Colac's [B]TDC is in a shopping centre car park. One of the most idiotic TDC is in Warrnambool where the position of the charge point on the main street is really only suitable for a type of ev:rulez: The owner of that brand should be paying rates!!!!


TDC were free for business and councils a few years ago. No one has been silly enough to pay for one for public use for years, I hope!

I pay the Motels if I use them if not staying in the motel.

"I am though amused by the electric vehicle owners who thought the charging was free and complain they have to pay"

I am thoroughly not amused by people who do not pay for many things- Doctors, Ambulances and similar for non emergancy care or rotten red tape I deal with for free every day.

PSST- shhhh- Tesla battery in Mod 3 is dead or dying. Off for a replacement. I assume the new battery will be another Dead battery that has been repaired. Hundreds of cells of which some faulty can be picked out and replaced. Glad it is under warranty! 12 km to take it to 'Eletric Jesus' shop.

I lost my MG to the owner today[bigrolf]

[PhilipA]

I am thoroughly not amused by people who do not pay for many things- Doctors, Ambulances and similar for non emergancy care or rotten red tape I deal with for free every day.

Who has free ambulance? I have to pay via my Private health insurance and it is $500 a pop or so if you don't have cover. And I am a pensioner( well part). Silver plus so that I can get a low cost hip if needed when I need it, not after 2 years in pain..
i have never in 16 years on the Central Coast of NSW had a bulk billing.
AFAIK very few doctors bulk bill now even for pensioners.
So it puts it into perspective re free charging when probably the top 20% of the population get free power for their virtue signalling toys and the bottom 20% pay for everything.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Who has free ambulance? I have to pay via my Private health insurance and it is $500 a pop or so if you don't have cover. And I am a pensioner( well part). Silver plus so that I can get a low cost hip if needed when I need it, not after 2 years in pain..
i have never in 16 years on the Central Coast of NSW had a bulk billing.
AFAIK very few doctors bulk bill now even for pensioners.
So it puts it into perspective re free charging when probably the top 20% of the population get free power for their virtue signalling toys and the bottom 20% pay for everything.
Regards PhilipA
Depends on your state for Ambulances. My Health insurance covers it as well. .
Ambulance costs around Australia: why is it free in some states and not others? - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-20/ambulance-fees-around-australia/10015172?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)

"The average cost of an emergency transport in Victoria is more than $1,100, according to their website.But the cost can also apply if someone else calls an ambulance for you — even if you refuse service.
Coastal Victorian resident Michael said his 21-year-old son had just finished a difficult surf when a concerned passer-by called him an ambulance.
Although his son refused service, he was still hit with a $500 bill for the call-out."[tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink]

Back to EV. Dropped Tesla to Eletric Jesus service place. Gent runs and rides motorcycles - Long chat. 20+ cars with lots of issues all under warranty. The loan car happily now with the owner of the Tesla is a Dual motor Mod 3. 4 odd seconds from 0 to 100 and that's if your quick enough to back off when you hit 100! That is almost as quick as the Honda CBR I had (RIP). A newer version is 3.55!!!!! (https://motostatz.com/honda-cbr650r-review/)

Back to ambulance bills- The Poor do NOT pay often. It is those of us who do pay or pay tax that pay for everything!!!!

"Patients owe Ambulance Victoria $39.9 million for unpaid emergency transport. Some $21.3 million of that, representing 19,108 trips, is in the hands of external debt collectors, the FOI documents state."[bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I just was reading the latest Open Road and some of the comments by EV enthusiasts were laughable.

One poster "an Engineer" wrote that soon we would be able to induction charge an EV "like a mobile phone" so towing a caravan and unhitching to charge was not a problem!

The next poster said that soon caravans would be available with their own batteries and electric motors and an "intelligent towbar that would give acceleration and braking assist. WOW!
At what cost and what weight?

It will be a brave new world in 12 years time for sure.
Regards PhilipA
There is a lot of rubbish going both ways.

The idea of an electric caravan is already underway.

As a side note.. I actually think an electrically driven caravan would be super cool for off road use. Even if you just had a relatively small battery that could drive or even assist when the going got tough.

Given caravans are pretty modular (many of them run on commercially available suspension) it would be neat if someone came up with an EV kit! You probably don't need all the super flash stuff on the van linked below.

The Lightship L1 is a caravan built for EVs that can also power your home - The Verge (https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/8/23626917/lightship-l1-electric-motor-caravan-rv-price-date)

[Tote]

There is a lot of rubbish going both ways.

The idea of an electric caravan is already underway.

As a side note.. I actually think an electrically driven caravan would be super cool for off road use. Even if you just had a relatively small battery that could drive or even assist when the going got tough.

Given caravans are pretty modular (many of them run on commercially available suspension) it would be neat if someone came up with an EV kit! You probably don't need all the super flash stuff on the van linked below.

The Lightship L1 is a caravan built for EVs that can also power your home - The Verge (https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/8/23626917/lightship-l1-electric-motor-caravan-rv-price-date)

101s had a matching powered trailer, it had a propensity to induce the 101 to lie on its side from memory........

Regards,
Tote

[JDNSW]

Yes. Powered trailers are not as good idea as it appears on the face of it. On the other hand, trailers carrying extra batteries may be more realistic.

[DiscoDB]

101s had a matching powered trailer, it had a propensity to induce the 101 to lie on its side from memory........

Regards,
Tote

Fast forward 50 years, and a trailer mounted EV drive unit would be able to significantly improve stability.

[DiscoDB]

There is a lot of rubbish going both ways.

The idea of an electric caravan is already underway.

As a side note.. I actually think an electrically driven caravan would be super cool for off road use. Even if you just had a relatively small battery that could drive or even assist when the going got tough.

Given caravans are pretty modular (many of them run on commercially available suspension) it would be neat if someone came up with an EV kit! You probably don't need all the super flash stuff on the van linked below.

The Lightship L1 is a caravan built for EVs that can also power your home - The Verge (https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/8/23626917/lightship-l1-electric-motor-caravan-rv-price-date)

Coincidently, I am currently in Nevada and actually saw a prototype being transported on the back of a semi yesterday. Did not realise what is was until you posted the link above.

It is a big caravan that one - but would be smaller than what you see behind many of the pick up trucks here in the US.

Ignoring price, the tech of that caravan is very impressive. Can be optioned with a 80kWhr battery, it’s own drive system, has a range of 300miles, built in stability control, and makes towing behind an EV truck range neutral and more stable. 3kW solar panels, and can live off grid, or put power into your home like the F-150 lightning offers the ability to do.

L1 Trailer — Lightship (https://lightshiprv.com/l1)

It’s a bizarre looking caravan. Will be interesting to see if the technology catches on. Would be great to see them develop a smaller version with a bit more ground clearance.

[Homestar]

Fast forward 50 years, and a trailer mounted EV drive unit would be able to significantly improve stability.

By having a tonne of batteries and motors in an already overloaded 3.5 tonne acoustically transparent ****box - what could possibly go wrong! 🤣

[Homestar]

A good video here by Alec - Tesla won the plug war - and that's good news! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ZJOfyMCEzjQ)

It’s long but worth watching. He’s a long time EV driver and has some interesting thoughts on the charging network in the USA, and how bad the non Tesla charging network is and how the switch to adopting the Tesla connector as a standard could dramatically improve this in the future.

[vnx205]

... ... ... .
.... ....
L1 Trailer — Lightship (https://lightshiprv.com/l1)

It’s a bizarre looking caravan. Will be interesting to see if the technology catches on. Would be great to see them develop a smaller version with a bit more ground clearance.

I hope those windows are made from something pretty tough. When it is lowered for towing, the whole of the outside is clad with windows.

[akelly]

...

Back to ambulance bills- The Poor do NOT pay often. It is those of us who do pay or pay tax that pay for everything!!!!



yeah man, it's called living in a community.

[NavyDiver]

Mon Dieu?

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1fx4ek.img?w=768&h=512&m=6
My car will NOT the one if it arrives in Oct or November[thumbsupbig] The flashing lights in your rear-view mirror could belong to a MG 4 police car – at least if you’re in France.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/mg-4-electric-car-reports-for-police-duty-in-france/ar-AA1fx4em?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=af810d36cd5949e69326a2eb7a628dff&ei=8

[JDNSW]

Yesterday in Dubbo Square there was an EV on display in the mini-mall. I did not see a make I recognised anywhere on it, but the logo on front is ! . About the size of an original Mini, only four door, Sign in the windscreen "$41,9000 Driveaway". Didn't seem to be any other information, but I was in a bit of a hurry, so didn't look too hard.

[akelly]

Yesterday in Dubbo Square there was an EV on display in the mini-mall. I did not see a make I recognised anywhere on it, but the logo on front is ! . About the size of an original Mini, only four door, Sign in the windscreen "$41,9000 Driveaway". Didn't seem to be any other information, but I was in a bit of a hurry, so didn't look too hard.

GWM Ora. Not released yet but the description fits.

186660

[Homestar]

ACCC are cracking down on misleading advertising from all OEM’s and the term ‘Zero Emissions’ will no longer be allowed as they will require the entire lifecycle to be considered so get ready for terms like ‘Zero tailpipe emissions while driving’ and similar.

Funny that the Vic State Gubment released a paper at the same time about ‘Zero Emission Vehicles’ 🤣

[JDNSW]

GWM Ora. Not released yet but the description fits.

186660

Yup! Thar's it. Same colour too.

[scarry]

I see in the Govt tenders here they are calling for expressions of interest from consultants, relating to EV charging stations at various facilities.
Qld health is doing the same...yet they are out of $$$ for health care.[bigrolf]

[akelly]

ACCC are cracking down on misleading advertising from all OEM’s and the term ‘Zero Emissions’ will no longer be allowed as they will require the entire lifecycle to be considered so get ready for terms like ‘Zero tailpipe emissions while driving’ and similar.

Funny that the Vic State Gubment released a paper at the same time about ‘Zero Emission Vehicles’ 🤣

Good to see the ACCC really going after the important issues. Small wonder they are routinely ignored.

[NavyDiver]

A bute ute or Lada like??? I think it is UGLY. Much more than the NIVA ute I once loved to drive [bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

"After a wait of almost four years, development of the Tesla Cybertruck seems to have reached the finish line, with only weeks remaining until the start of initial deliveries – assuming Tesla sticks to the late Q3 timeline announced earlier this year.Yesterday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk posted a photo of a "production candidate" Cybertruck (https://insideevs.com/news/683197/elon-musk-shows-off-production-candidate-tesla-cybertruck-big-smile/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) after driving it, labeling the vehicle as the company's "best product ever."
However, that doesn't mean Tesla can rest on its laurels – quite the contrary. The Cybertruck Owners Club caught wind of an internal email from Elon Musk to Tesla employees in which the executive demands the manufacturing team to pay extra attention to the Cybertruck (https://insideevs.com/tesla/cybertruck/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)'s fit and finish and ensure high standards of quality.
The CEO mentioned panel gaps in particular, noting that tolerances "need be specified in single digit microns." Here's the email in full.

"Due to the nature of Cybertruck, which is made of bright metal with mostly straight edges, any dimensional variation shows up like a sore thumb.
All parts for this vehicle, whether internal or from suppliers, need to be designed and built to sub 10 micron accuracy.
That means all part dimensions need to be to the third decimal place in millimeters and tolerances need be specified in single digit microns. If LEGO and soda cans, which are very low cost, can do this, so can we.
Precision predicates perfectionism.

Elon"" https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1fI4u5.img?w=612&h=344&m=6

[Red90]

Holy crap. Musk is such a moron.

[Saitch]

A bute ute or Lada like??? I think it is UGLY. Much more than the NIVA ute I once loved to drive [bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

"After a wait of almost four years, development of the Tesla Cybertruck seems to have reached the finish line, with only weeks remaining until the start of initial deliveries – assuming Tesla sticks to the late Q3 timeline announced earlier this year.Yesterday, Tesla CEO Elon Musk posted a photo of a "production candidate" Cybertruck (https://insideevs.com/news/683197/elon-musk-shows-off-production-candidate-tesla-cybertruck-big-smile/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) after driving it, labeling the vehicle as the company's "best product ever."
However, that doesn't mean Tesla can rest on its laurels – quite the contrary. The Cybertruck Owners Club caught wind of an internal email from Elon Musk to Tesla employees in which the executive demands the manufacturing team to pay extra attention to the Cybertruck (https://insideevs.com/tesla/cybertruck/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed)'s fit and finish and ensure high standards of quality.
The CEO mentioned panel gaps in particular, noting that tolerances "need be specified in single digit microns." Here's the email in full.
"Due to the nature of Cybertruck, which is made of bright metal with mostly straight edges, any dimensional variation shows up like a sore thumb.
All parts for this vehicle, whether internal or from suppliers, need to be designed and built to sub 10 micron accuracy.
That means all part dimensions need to be to the third decimal place in millimeters and tolerances need be specified in single digit microns. If LEGO and soda cans, which are very low cost, can do this, so can we.
Precision predicates perfectionism.

Elon"" https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1fI4u5.img?w=612&h=344&m=6

If the windscreen is really as extensive as it looks, it would be a bit interesting being inside on a nice, Queensland/Northern Australian, summer's day!

[JDNSW]

If the windscreen is really as extensive as it looks, it would be a bit interesting being inside on a nice, Queensland/Northern Australian, summer's day!

Or even Western NSW! But it is only slightly worse than 90% of current cars, and a significant proportion of current cars add a glass roof section to ensure that summer warming is as high as possible.

[akelly]

absolute clown car. The windscreen wiper is like 5 feet long good luck replacing that with Tesla's renowned customer service (none). Not to mention the drivers position is near the middle of the wheelbase. If you buy one of these you are a bigger moron than the guy trying to sell you one.

[NavyDiver]

(1)Tesla's renowned customer service (none).
(2) If you buy one of these you are a bigger moron than the guy trying to sell you one.

re 1- Full battery replacement in a Model 3 last week. I dropped it off and picked up a loan dual motor version for the week for the owner of that car. Warranty job!! Interesting to note that they contacted the owner to let them know they had found a issue and they had booked it in for them. The battery problem was not obvious at that point. It seemed good service really. Not suggesting a failed battery is great!!! Noted a LOT of other cars for repairs at the Tesla place!

(2) he is just very misunderstood very understandably and x rated[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Other aside is my Cousins Mod 3 in the US which has still not been serviced at all now at 52000km+. I wonder what breaks first?

[DiscoDB]

Currently in Salt Lake City, Utah, and spotted my first Rivian today. Much smaller than I thought it would be. Looks similar in size to the Ford Ranger.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230827/b7ee9a9128c711f38cdded868922fc69.jpg

If it wasn’t for the goofy looking front end, it looks quite neat when seen up close.

Of course plenty of Teslas, and F-150 Lightnings also to be seen.

Even the mine I was visiting has 50 of the F-150 Lightnings being used on site. The mining companies recharge them on site for 5c/kWh. So equivalent cost to fully recharge an 80kWh battery as using just one gallon of fuel.

One interesting point when it comes to range figures being quoted in the real world in the US, in states like Nevada and Utah, the speed limit on the inter-state highways is mostly 80mph (128kph), but most people seem to sit on 85mph (136kph). Even the semi trucks, and people towing their 3.5T-7T trailers behind a pick-up, are doing at least 75mph (120kph).

[akelly]

the Rivians are getting 6,000 miles out of a set of tyres. Turns out making a car that weighs 3,500kg into front wheel drive isn't a great idea.

Rivians’ Tires Are Wearing Out in as Little as 6,000 Miles. Here’s Why (https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivians-tires-are-wearing-out-in-as-little-as-6000-miles-heres-why)

[scarry]

the Rivians are getting 6,000 miles out of a set of tyres. Turns out making a car that weighs 3,500kg into front wheel drive isn't a great idea.

Rivians’ Tires Are Wearing Out in as Little as 6,000 Miles. Here’s Why (https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivians-tires-are-wearing-out-in-as-little-as-6000-miles-heres-why)

No surprise,the local tyre guy told me around 6 months ago,Ev's are generally very hard on tyres,and the tyre manufacturers will have to lift their game.

[BradC]

No surprise,the local tyre guy told me around 6 months ago,Ev's are generally very hard on tyres,and the tyre manufacturers will have to lift their game.

So they're hard on tyres which means they're hard on the road surface.

[DiscoDB]

the Rivians are getting 6,000 miles out of a set of tyres. Turns out making a car that weighs 3,500kg into front wheel drive isn't a great idea.

Rivians’ Tires Are Wearing Out in as Little as 6,000 Miles. Here’s Why (https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivians-tires-are-wearing-out-in-as-little-as-6000-miles-heres-why)

835hp and 1,224Nm might have a small role to play here as well.

Let’s burn rubber baby!

[scarry]

So they're hard on tyres which means they're hard on the road surface.

So should be paying more for rego…..

I was doing a job at a local Hospital recently and at the entrance of the car park was a sign which stated a GVM of 2.5T.The van fitted in no worries,and their were no complaints from anyone.[biggrin]

[akelly]

No surprise,the local tyre guy told me around 6 months ago,Ev's are generally very hard on tyres,and the tyre manufacturers will have to lift their game.

no, 3.5T vehicles are hard on tyres. This is like saying petrol cars are harder on tyres than LPG, your local tyre guy is a clown.

[akelly]

So they're hard on tyres which means they're hard on the road surface.

hahahaha what? You're going to need to explain this to me.

[scarry]

no, 3.5T vehicles are hard on tyres. This is like saying petrol cars are harder on tyres than LPG, your local tyre guy is a clown.

I suppose a guy that has worked in the tyre industry for over 45 years,and had his own tyre shops,wouldn't know much about tyres..[tonguewink]



The Unexpected Problem With EVs: They '''Tire''' Quickly (https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/100112/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly)

2 Reasons Why Electric Cars Burn Through Tires Faster Than Gas-Powered Vehicles (https://www.motorbiscuit.com/2-reasons-electric-cars-burn-tires-faster-gas-powered-vehicles/)

Electric vehicle tires – Everything you need to know | Continental tires (https://www.continental-tires.com/products/b2c/tire-knowledge/electric-vehicle-tires/)

Do Electric Cars Need Special Tyres? | Auto Exhausts & Tyres (https://autoexhaustandtyres.co.uk/news/do-electric-cars-need-special-tyres/)

[scarry]

hahahaha what? You're going to need to explain this to me.

Pretty simple,all to do with weight.


Electric Vehicles And The Impact On Infrastructure (https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2022/12/29/electric-vehicles-and-the-impact-on-infrastructure/'sh=3e24799b1835)

[NavyDiver]

Pretty simple,all to do with weight.


Electric Vehicles And The Impact On Infrastructure (https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2022/12/29/electric-vehicles-and-the-impact-on-infrastructure/'sh=3e24799b1835)

It is all about weight[thumbsupbig] The my gold d3 (RIP) was 2.3 tonnes+ With steel bars, Winch, long range tank, side sliders and bits included. Current EV is well under 1/2 that [B]and it is a stupid front wheel drive Not for much longer[thumbsupbig]

I am NOT an expert.

Looks about < a 1mm wear difference to the front wheels compared to the back tyre. 50,000 odd km on them much of which was at highway speeds.
186756186757186758 Perelli Primacy bit is interesting as google show that as another Brand?

I have no problem paying my way. [B]It is clear to some that many do not pay the real cost!
Yes I am stirring the POT [biggrin]

Have a great day all

[BradC]

Pretty simple,all to do with weight.


Electric Vehicles And The Impact On Infrastructure (https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2022/12/29/electric-vehicles-and-the-impact-on-infrastructure/'sh=3e24799b1835)

It's not all weight related. There's also an issue with non 4wd vehicles and regenerative braking.

[scarry]

It is all about weight[thumbsupbig] The my gold d3 (RIP[bawl]) was 2.3 tonnes+ With steel bars, Winch, long range tank, side sliders and bits included.
Have a great day all

That is a light D3,my D4 weighed 2.85T,me,bar,dualbattery,full tank,BFG's,couple of other things in it.
The LC is3.15T,lots more fuel,same accessories,sort of,including fridge.
Tyre wear on the LC is less than the D4,same type,same brand,similar size.
Maybe the D4 IS on all corners didn't do the wear any favours,but i have no idea,nor do i really care[biggrin]

Tyre wear on black top, long highway runs, is always a lot less than around town.

[NavyDiver]

It's not all weight related. There's also an issue with non 4wd vehicles and regenerative braking.

Brad I LOVE regenerative braking!!!

One of the Best technical parts of EV in my thoughts. Running up and down hills in shoes a lot here. Up is tough at 10 to 15 kph. I use a lot less energy coming down at even faster speeds ( Sorry Swearing about exercising again) It is regen in some ways.

I appreciate its not power back in a battery more energy conservation when running or driving down hills. In the EV at the speed limit coming down several long inclines here the car suggest I am getting back a good deal of energy for free.

The interesting part of how much was mentioned by a Gent who made his MG one pedal driving like another brand and added a higher level of Regeneration. The Limit was how much power charge the battery could take.

If newer tech or super capacitor was used where that was not a problem I think the need to brake could be removed entirely by regenerative braking Brad.

We are not there yet! FYI Ampol seems to be rocking on EV and Hydrogen!

The Hydrogen role out news was this morning and I lost it of course[biggrin]

Look at about minute 4. The cable weight is clear in the video. Not that much for most of us. My mum would not be able to. Not that she is much good at any servo now.

I did find some thing similar near Euroa

Chargefox
hargefox Charging Station
Electric vehicle charging station
[B]Freeway Service Centre Euroa
167 Tarcombe St Open 24 hours
CHAdeMO·350.0 kW - Total 2
CCS·350.0 kW - Total 2
CHAdeMO·50.0 kW - Total 2
CCS·50.0 kW - Total 2
My rotten phone service did not work. I had to call Charge fox to get some power that day [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]


https://youtu.be/5wkkAg_lwqs'si=Y8271FA5fUrtwgEV

[PhilipA]

1hr 39 minutes at Goulburn Charger.
longest coffee break in history!
Regard PhilipA

[BradC]

Brad I LOVE regenerative braking!!!

I'm not knocking it, I'm simply suggesting that a normal ICE based vehicle applies braking force in various proportions to all wheels under most circumstances, and a 2WD EV tends to lean on the driven wheels for regen. That means more wear on those tyres and consequential wear on the road surface. For a 4wd then all bets are off depending on how the diffs are configured.

Frankly I don't give a crap what anyone drives, but anybody saying EVs have the same wear pattern on a road as an ICE needs a quick chat with Sir Isaac Newton.

[akelly]

I suppose a guy that has worked in the tyre industry for over 45 years,and had his own tyre shops,wouldn't know much about tyres..[tonguewink]



The Unexpected Problem With EVs: They '''Tire''' Quickly (https://au.pcmag.com/cars-auto/100112/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly)

2 Reasons Why Electric Cars Burn Through Tires Faster Than Gas-Powered Vehicles (https://www.motorbiscuit.com/2-reasons-electric-cars-burn-tires-faster-gas-powered-vehicles/)

Electric vehicle tires – Everything you need to know | Continental tires (https://www.continental-tires.com/products/b2c/tire-knowledge/electric-vehicle-tires/)

Do Electric Cars Need Special Tyres? | Auto Exhausts & Tyres (https://autoexhaustandtyres.co.uk/news/do-electric-cars-need-special-tyres/)

Stupid is as stupid does. No amount of years fitting tyres can make someone smarter.

[Homestar]

https://youtu.be/5wkkAg_lwqs'si=Y8271FA5fUrtwgEV

When did a 3 and a bit hour drive become a road trip? I often do that sort of distance and back in a day for work to see a customer.

[Homestar]

Stupid is as stupid does. No amount of years fitting tyres can make someone smarter.

If someone worked for 45 years fitting tyres then there I'd begin to wonder about ones purpose in the universe. [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

https://www.drive.com.au/news/hydrogen-coming-soon-to-selected-ampol-service-stations/

Now we just need the Hydrogen to be made by electrolysis with renewable energy rather than using steam methane reformation.

A long way to go but a start.

[akelly]

https://www.drive.com.au/news/hydrogen-coming-soon-to-selected-ampol-service-stations/

Now we just need the Hydrogen to be made by electrolysis with renewable energy rather than using steam methane reformation.

A long way to go but a start.

Hydrogen is a scam, same as the idea of methane as a "transition fuel." The companies pushing it just want to delay the move to electric because they've got decades long supply chain contracts for ICE drivetrain components.

[Homestar]

Will agree to disagree - I think EV's are not the magic bullet some seem to think they are only part of a larger mix of technologies we'll need in the future - Agriculture, Trucking, Mining, Mobile Power Generation, etc - even your trip to Dingo **** Creek towing your 3.5 tonne acoustically transparent ****ter will never be able to go electric so something needs to be developed to fill this gap if we are even to be rid of fossil fuels. If you're sitting on some magic tech that can do this then I'm all ears, but batteries isn't it. I don't want to hear the catch cry of the great EV washed which is 'Future battery tech will solve this' as that's fantasy land - all the BS you see on magic new batteries never comes to anything because it's all a con job - listen to the Chemists and they'll tell you that from here on battery tech will just be a bit of fluffing around the edges because the science tells us that we're pretty much at the top end regarding energy density. These are call facts and is backed by Science, not your mate down the pub who saw a great article on line about 'the next big thing in batteries' - I know it's inconvenient and you don't have to like them but it doesn't change them.

Using wind and solar energy to produce Hydrogen seems a logical step in the right direction. Yes, it's years away, but you have to start somewhere. Is it green at the moment - no, not even close, but it will have to go that way at some point even if that pushed the price of the fuel up.

There's a reason a lot of equipment manufacturers are looking at and starting to produce Hydrogen prototypes - because they know as well as anyone that batteries won't and can't do what is required so are looking at alternatives. Calling Hydrogen a scam gives them no credit for what they are trying - and it's not the Hydrogen suppliers that are doing this, its almost every global OEM from trucking to agriculture to construction equipment, etc - it's everywhere you look. A hydrogen generator (Toyota Fuel Cell) has just gone into a construction site around the corner from us - how do you do that with a battery? - The tech is coming and will play an important role, just like EV's will.

[akelly]

no worries, every scam has people who buy into it. That's how scams work.

[Homestar]

no worries, every scam has people who buy into it. That's how scams work.

Just like EV's? [bigwhistle]

[akelly]

Just like EV's? [bigwhistle]

what's the scam with EVs? There are thousands of them on the road and more every day. Show me all the hydrogen cars.

[101RRS]

While not many of them are on the road at the moment there are few hydrogen cell cars on the road in Qld, ACT and Vic. The ACT ones are totally green - not sure about the others.

[akelly]

While not many of them are on the road at the moment there are few hydrogen cell cars on the road in Qld, ACT and Vic. The ACT ones are totally green - not sure about the others.

a tiny number, basically a front for toyota because they failed to invest in pure EVs. Government fleets pushed out at a loss to pretend its viable. You fellas can believe what you want, but hydrogen is a scam that's already been eclipsed by an actual real-world technology with millions of on-road miles under it's belt. When you're driving one let me know.

[Saitch]

a tiny number, basically a front for toyota because they failed to invest in pure EVs. Government fleets pushed out at a loss to pretend its viable. You fellas can believe what you want, but hydrogen is a scam that's already been eclipsed by an actual real-world technology with millions of on-road miles under it's belt. When you're driving one let me know.

Weren't Hyundai one of the players in the ACT?

[NavyDiver]

https://www.drive.com.au/news/hydrogen-coming-soon-to-selected-ampol-service-stations/

Now we just need the Hydrogen to be made by electrolysis with renewable energy rather than using steam methane reformation.

A long way to go but a start.

Noticed Toyota doing the wait a few years and look at me! Diversified powertrains are Toyota’s long-term answerContemplating a Hilux BEV for Australia, Hanley said we must comprehend the size, weight and charging time of the battery pack required to achieve a range of 800km – as you’d get from a diesel HiLux.
“Rest assured, Toyota is working on it,” Hanley said, citing Toyota’s work on solid state batteries as a solution. That, or how hydrogen fuel cells could come into their own.

Toyota brings electric Hilux prototype to Australia with modest range and capability - Chasing Cars (https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/future-cars/toyota-brings-electric-hilux-prototype-to-australia-with-modest-range-and-capability/#:~:text=Contemplating%20a%20Hilux%20BEV%20for%20A ustralia%2C%20Hanley%20said,work%20on%20solid%20st ate%20batteries%20as%20a%20solution.)

My mates in Perth Poo to Hydrogen via hydrogen pyrolysis at any scale and likely to be 7 times cheaper than Wind/Solar to Hydrogen electrolysis I think. The main reason is the cheap power can be used far more effectively at a far higher ROI for the other power demand any anyone thinking just replacing existing power demand is enough is far more optimistic than rational.

Excuse me if I am waffling here! A place with 95% hydro power can sell that cheap power for more money to others on the network all the way from Québec to Texas is a great case study.

Hydro‑Québec can make so much more selling its abundant hydro power to others that is seriously looking to restart Nuclear power to meet Québecs own power needs so it can meet the supply contracts others are signing up for. Sound crazy? Its pure economics at work I think. (https://thedeepdive.ca/quebec-wants-to-return-to-nuclear-power/)

[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig] Have a great day

[akelly]

Noticed Toyota doing the wait a few years and look at me! Diversified powertrains are Toyota’s long-term answerContemplating a Hilux BEV for Australia, Hanley said we must comprehend the size, weight and charging time of the battery pack required to achieve a range of 800km – as you’d get from a diesel HiLux.
“Rest assured, Toyota is working on it,” Hanley said, citing Toyota’s work on solid state batteries as a solution. That, or how hydrogen fuel cells could come into their own.

Toyota brings electric Hilux prototype to Australia with modest range and capability - Chasing Cars (https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/future-cars/toyota-brings-electric-hilux-prototype-to-australia-with-modest-range-and-capability/#:~:text=Contemplating%20a%20Hilux%20BEV%20for%20A ustralia%2C%20Hanley%20said,work%20on%20solid%20st ate%20batteries%20as%20a%20solution.)

My mates in Perth Poo to Hydrogen via hydrogen pyrolysis at any scale and likely to be 7 times cheaper than Wind/Solar to Hydrogen electrolysis I think. The main reason is the cheap power can be used far more effectively at a far higher ROI for the other power demand any anyone thinking just replacing existing power demand is enough is far more optimistic than rational.

Excuse me if I am waffling here! A place with 95% hydro power can sell that cheap power for more money to others on the network all the way from Québec to Texas is a great case study.

Hydro‑Québec can make so much more selling its abundant hydro power to others that is seriously looking to restart Nuclear power to meet Québecs own power needs so it can meet the supply contracts others are signing up for. Sound crazy? Its pure economics at work I think. (https://thedeepdive.ca/quebec-wants-to-return-to-nuclear-power/)

[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig] Have a great day


apart from the fact you seem to be having a stroke, you don't seem to understand energy or economics at all.

[NavyDiver]

apart from the fact you seem to be having a stroke, you don't seem to understand energy or economics at all.

Not sure how you feel that? The hydro company is doing the Maths and economic viability study not me "Hydro-Québec is mulling over a return to nuclear power. The state-owned utility officially announced on Thursday that it is evaluating the feasibility of resuming operations at Gentilly-2, the province’s sole nuclear power facility, which ceased operation in 2012."

On the 7 time cost for Electrolysis much smarter people than I am made that claim for power consumption cost compared. Link for you Try page 17. Hazer Group Ltd (sharelinktechnologies.com) (https://app.sharelinktechnologies.com/announcement/asx/0a1801e4fd4e8ff7e928900d74c29ea6)

You're welcome to your opinion of course. My money equals my mouth in an investment sense only of course. It is easy to loose money so assume your bias and stick to it. I promise to stick to my clear bias to clean Hydrogen at scale.

[Homestar]

a tiny number, basically a front for toyota because they failed to invest in pure EVs. Government fleets pushed out at a loss to pretend its viable. You fellas can believe what you want, but hydrogen is a scam that's already been eclipsed by an actual real-world technology with millions of on-road miles under it's belt. When you're driving one let me know.

Likewise you can believe what you want. If you believe EV’s can replace all ICE products then there’s nothing I can say to change your mind and if you don’t believe the science that’s completely up to you. Just make sure you don’t drive your EV off the edge of the world.

[Homestar]

Noticed Toyota doing the wait a few years and look at me! Diversified powertrains are Toyota’s long-term answerContemplating a Hilux BEV for Australia, Hanley said we must comprehend the size, weight and charging time of the battery pack required to achieve a range of 800km – as you’d get from a diesel HiLux.
“Rest assured, Toyota is working on it,” Hanley said, citing Toyota’s work on solid state batteries as a solution. That, or how hydrogen fuel cells could come into their own.

Toyota brings electric Hilux prototype to Australia with modest range and capability - Chasing Cars (https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/future-cars/toyota-brings-electric-hilux-prototype-to-australia-with-modest-range-and-capability/#:~:text=Contemplating%20a%20Hilux%20BEV%20for%20A ustralia%2C%20Hanley%20said,work%20on%20solid%20st ate%20batteries%20as%20a%20solution.)

My mates in Perth Poo to Hydrogen via hydrogen pyrolysis at any scale and likely to be 7 times cheaper than Wind/Solar to Hydrogen electrolysis I think. The main reason is the cheap power can be used far more effectively at a far higher ROI for the other power demand any anyone thinking just replacing existing power demand is enough is far more optimistic than rational.

Excuse me if I am waffling here! A place with 95% hydro power can sell that cheap power for more money to others on the network all the way from Québec to Texas is a great case study.

Hydro‑Québec can make so much more selling its abundant hydro power to others that is seriously looking to restart Nuclear power to meet Québecs own power needs so it can meet the supply contracts others are signing up for. Sound crazy? Its pure economics at work I think. (https://thedeepdive.ca/quebec-wants-to-return-to-nuclear-power/)

[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig] Have a great day

800km out of the diesel Hilux - that made me laugh out loud. Toyota are good at spin you have to admit. Having driven 3 of them from new over the last decade none of them have got close to 800 even when driven carefully. 700 is doable if you try really hard, 650 is closer to the truth. None of my vehicles are eve heavily loaded when I’m not towing - basically a set of draws in the back with PPE and a few hand tools. Even empty with a featherweight driver 800 is out of the question.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

It's not all weight related. There's also an issue with non 4wd vehicles and regenerative braking.
I doubt this. Regen is generally fairly smooth. People brake much harder.

Most EV's are significantly lighter than the 4x4's being bought in very large numbers.

So much FUD

[BradC]

I doubt this. Regen is generally fairly smooth. People brake much harder.

People brake much harder with the force balanced across 4 wheels.

[Narangga]

GWM Ora. Not released yet but the description fits.

186660

Yes saw one in the Gateway shopping centre in Palmerston last week.

[Narangga]

The Niro had it's 'complementary' 3,000km/3 month service Wednesday. No oil leaks reported [bigrolf]

2,700km in 6 weeks and the reported energy usage is 14.6kW/100km. Advertised figure by Kia is 16.2 combined.

[scarry]

Most EV's are significantly lighter than the 4x4's being bought in very large numbers.



An accurate weight comparison would be with an EV and an equivalent sized ICE powered vehicle.

The bulk of 4x4 vehicles sold are dual cab or single cab utes,and they are similar weight to a larger EV.Some of the single cab utes would probably be lighter.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

An accurate weight comparison would be with an EV and an equivalent sized ICE powered vehicle.

The bulk of 4x4 vehicles sold are dual cab or single cab utes,and they are similar weight to a larger EV.Some of the single cab utes would probably be lighter.
Tesla model Y is 1900kg.

Name me a dual cab ute that is lighter, and add fuel to the weight. :D

[Captain_Rightfoot]

People brake much harder with the force balanced across 4 wheels.

The harder they brake the more force is applied to the fronts, which do the vast majority. This is much much more force than regen which isn't a huge amount more than strong engine braking. (most people drive autos these days.. how soon we forget!)

[NavyDiver]

DOOMBERG substack had HOW MANY PING PONG BALLS CAN YOU FIT IN A 747 – I Loved it.
It was used to test estimation skills apparently.What really caught my eye was "Department of Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm said Wednesday that she supports efforts from the Biden administration to require the U.S. military to implement an all-electric vehicle fleet by 2030, telling lawmakers that she believes ‘we can get there.’"
Just for FUN
That put me in estimation mode myself with an M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank. They have a range of 251 miles or 403 km! Fuel Tanks is about 500 gallons 1885 litres.
How much battery would be required to move a M1A2 62-70 tonnes 400 km?
Using a very simple Power to weight per 100km gives me quirky estimate very short on reality perhaps 2000kWh-
Then you have to recharge them all!

The US may have “U.S. Army – 2,509 total, 750 M1A1SA, 1,605 M1A2 SEPv2, 154 M1A2 SEPv3 (some 3,700 more M1A1 and M1A2 in storage)”
The US Army will be using mobile Nuclear SMR if they have 2000+ thirsty EV battle tanks! S.M.R. nuclear power was invented for/by the US Navy of course for the famous USS Nautilus SSN-571.
.
The US military EV tanks and vehicle fleet cannot take power lines with them!

[Homestar]

DOOMBERG substack had HOW MANY PING PONG BALLS CAN YOU FIT IN A 747 – I Loved it.
It was used to test estimation skills apparently.What really caught my eye was "Department of Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm said Wednesday that she supports efforts from the Biden administration to require the U.S. military to implement an all-electric vehicle fleet by 2030, telling lawmakers that she believes ‘we can get there.’"
Just for FUN
That put me in estimation mode myself with an M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tank. They have a range of 251 miles or 403 km! Fuel Tanks is about 500 gallons 1885 litres.
How much battery would be required to move a M1A2 62-70 tonnes 400 km?
Using a very simple Power to weight per 100km gives me quirky estimate very short on reality perhaps 2000kWh-
Then you have to recharge them all!

The US may have “U.S. Army – 2,509 total, 750 M1A1SA, 1,605 M1A2 SEPv2, 154 M1A2 SEPv3 (some 3,700 more M1A1 and M1A2 in storage)”
The US Army will be using mobile Nuclear SMR if they have 2000+ thirsty EV battle tanks! S.M.R. nuclear power was invented for/by the US Navy of course for the famous USS Nautilus SSN-571.
.
The US military EV tanks and vehicle fleet cannot take power lines with them!

Love it! Calcs aren’t far off from my quick run of the numbers. I think they’d have to tow a battery pack trailer though as a 2,000kwh battery would take up approx 20 cubic metres and weigh 9.5 tonnes. [emoji16]

[NavyDiver]

Love it! Calcs aren’t far off from my quick run of the numbers. I think they’d have to tow a battery pack trailer though as a 2,000kwh battery would take up approx 20 cubic metres and weigh 9.5 tonnes. [emoji16]


I did chuckle thinking about the weight going from 70 tonnes to 140 or more[thumbsupbig] I might have worked on the weight of my Flow batteries perhaps[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Tesla model Y is 1900kg.

Name me a dual cab ute that is lighter, and add fuel to the weight. :D


I said,single cab PROBABLY lighter,Dual Cab SIMILAR weight,not lighter.

Have a look at this,it's only one brand,there are many if you want to check them out.2WD are lighter again.

Kerb weight includes a full tank of fuel.

https://www.toyota.com.au/-/media/toyota/main-site/vehicle-hubs/hilux/files/20230428_hilux_spec-sheet.pdf

[PhilipA]

twiggy just fired his CEO and CFO because they did not share his objectives. One of the reasons its that he wanted to not claim the diesel subsidy.
I wonder if they have decided/recognised that the green hydrogen dream is just that.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

I like bikes. Ok mine all have pedals now[biggrin]

Poms have a nice looking 80 odd mile retro looking version

To be honest It looks a little home made [bigwhistle]

Bikes
– Maeving(R) (https://maeving.com/collections/bikes)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I said,single cab PROBABLY lighter,Dual Cab SIMILAR weight,not lighter.

Have a look at this,it's only one brand,there are many if you want to check them out.2WD are lighter again.

Kerb weight includes a full tank of fuel.

https://www.toyota.com.au/-/media/toyota/main-site/vehicle-hubs/hilux/files/20230428_hilux_spec-sheet.pdf

The absolute lightest single cab one, with no fuel is 1800kg. But the time you fill it up with fuel and oil will be 1900kg. And no tray I assume. Is about the same weight as a five seater with full cabin EV. Right.

I think point made.

Hardly anyone buys those anyway. Most of them that I see are the dual cabs, starting at 2100kg. I don't think it's at all realistic to compare a 2 seater to a five seater. I mean my lotus is 700kg for a two seater. That makes EV's look really heavy.

PS if toyota are including fuel in kerb weight then that is a change because their weights used to be dry as. It's only Euro cars that include some fuel. The spec sheet just says "check it".

[Homestar]

4x2 petrol Hilux single cab with Ali tray is 1490Kg.

Why are we comparing a car to a 4WD? Tesla is an around town car same as a Corolla etc so I would be making any comparison against other similar cars.

[scarry]

4x2 petrol Hilux single cab with Ali tray is 1,490kg…

Even a dual cab at 2100KG,is not far off a 1900KG Tesla.

The Dual cab would be full of fuel,dunno about the Tesla[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

This week, Tesla significantly expanded its Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot program in Australia, which will improve access to reliable fast charging infrastructure for all EV users.
In the case of Australia, the first five Supercharging stations (all in New South Wales) were included in the Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot in February (https://insideevs.com/news/650873/non-tesla-supercharger-pilot-australia/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). As of today, we counted roughly 30 locations, which appears to be more than half of all Supercharging sites in the country.

That is eally noice of letric pedo giy toss..... I have Sat slowly beside many empty SUperduper chargers so many time on my Chemo express runs I honestly could never ever use one now. Happily I do not need to see them at all now.

Perhaps my last Chemo express EV drive will be next week. very happily stopping at a non Eletric Jesus charging place.

Noting the Eletric Jesus car battery failed and was replaced very recently. That one has very few KM traveled on its clock. [bigrolf]

This one could be in Grumpy OLD buggers perhaps.

The map suggest I could. NOt a cent of my money will go that way[thumbsupbig]

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1g8KIw.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg

[Narangga]

twiggy just fired his CEO and CFO because they did not share his objectives. One of the reasons its that he wanted to not claim the diesel subsidy.
I wonder if they have decided/recognised that the green hydrogen dream is just that.
Regards PhilipA

CFO left four weeks ago. Has just been appointed to the board of Tivan - vanadium mining start up in the NT

[scarry]

This week, Tesla significantly expanded its Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot program in Australia, which will improve access to reliable fast charging infrastructure for all EV users.
In the case of Australia, the first five Supercharging stations (all in New South Wales) were included in the Non-Tesla Supercharger Pilot in February (https://insideevs.com/news/650873/non-tesla-supercharger-pilot-australia/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed). As of today, we counted roughly 30 locations, which appears to be more than half of all Supercharging sites in the country.

That is eally noice of letric pedo giy toss..... I have Sat slowly beside many empty SUperduper chargers so many time on my Chemo express runs I honestly could never ever use one now. Happily I do not need to see them at all now.

Perhaps my last Chemo express EV drive will be next week. very happily stopping at a non Eletric Jesus charging place.

Noting the Eletric Jesus car battery failed and was replaced very recently. That one has very few KM traveled on its clock. [bigrolf]

This one could be in Grumpy OLD buggers perhaps.

The map suggest I could. NOt a cent of my money will go that way[thumbsupbig]

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1g8KIw.img?w=1920&h=1080&q=60&m=2&f=jpg








So how many chargers at each of these places?
Nothing mentioned in the link.

[RANDLOVER]

The absolute lightest single cab one, with no fuel is 1800kg. But the time you fill it up with fuel and oil will be 1900kg. And no tray I assume. Is about the same weight as a five seater with full cabin EV. Right.

I think point made.

Hardly anyone buys those anyway. Most of them that I see are the dual cabs, starting at 2100kg. I don't think it's at all realistic to compare a 2 seater to a five seater. I mean my lotus is 700kg for a two seater. That makes EV's look really heavy.............

Exactly hardly anyone buys them, everyone wants dual cab, high riding, even if it is not 4wd, and preferably auto. Your Lotus two-seater is half the weight of a single cab which compares fairly as a single cab is basically a two-seater, unless you have a very friendly crew of three, even with column shift. A contractor I know got a high riding ute at a good price but had to have it converted to low or standard height due to working at a lot of places with parking garages as it wouldn't fit with ladder racks.

[NavyDiver]

So how many chargers at each of these places?
Nothing mentioned in the link.
It Varies. Colac has 3 or 4 I think. Some have more an App called PLUG Share can provide almost all detail. I have it set for Charge places I can use so it doesn't point me to the many I have not been able to use.


GOOGLE for Geelong did show
"Charging
6 Superchargers, available 24/7, up to 250kW
CCS Compatibility" and address. The Super Jesus car here has via a Super Jesus app the same in car nav showing distance and other information.

Coverage is getting better for all charging options at last. Noting that peak times will be a PITA as more people start driving EVs due to Fuel and servicing cost savings over petrol and diesel.

Happily for me perhaps Australia is SLOW[bigwhistle] Appreciate the silly cost and the sub optimal battery EV tech is still the biggest issue allowing me breathing space at the remote fast CCS charge place I am enjoying now. Remote is relative to my Mum and Dads. I love the drive myself.

[scarry]

It Varies. Colac has 3 or 4 I think. Some have more an App called PLUG Share can provide almost all detail. I have it set for Charge places I can use so it doesn't point me to the many I have not been able to use.


GOOGLE for Geelong did show
"Charging
6 Superchargers, available 24/7, up to 250kW
CCS Compatibility" and address. The Super Jesus car here has via a Super Jesus app the same in car nav showing distance and other information.

Coverage is getting better for all charging options at last. Noting that peak times will be a PITA as more people start driving EVs due to Fuel and servicing cost savings over petrol and diesel.

Happily for me perhaps Australia is SLOW[bigwhistle] Appreciate the silly cost and the sub optimal battery EV tech is still the biggest issue allowing me breathing space at the remote fast CCS charge place I am enjoying now. Remote is relative to my Mum and Dads. I love the drive myself.

Yes that number certainly won’t cut it once they become more popular.
Electricians will certainly be busy,as well the electricity provider as there just won’t be the power available that is needed.
They are already talking blackouts in Qld this summer,and there are very few EVs around.
It will all fall over sooner or later.[bighmmm]

[NavyDiver]

Yes that number certainly won’t cut it once they become more popular.
Electricians will certainly be busy,as well the electricity provider as there just won’t be the power available that is needed.
They are already talking blackouts in Qld this summer,and there are very few EVs around.
It will all fall over sooner or later.[bighmmm]

Just noted Hydro TAS suggesting 30+ electricity use in Tassie. WE all suspect some of the hype over science or physics might bite us[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

News for Summer black outs/ brown outs and payments to industry to shut of to avoid this in Vic is similar I hear.

I'm off to Current Affairs for a laugh after that depressing thought[bighmmm]

[scarry]

I'm off to Current Affairs for a laugh after that depressing thought[bighmmm]

To check out the Naughty Bits?[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

To check out the Naughty Bits?[bigrolf]
It could have almost made the General Chat but where is the fun in that[bigrolf] XXXXXL was funny I thought[bigwhistle]

[RANDLOVER]

Yes that number certainly won’t cut it once they become more popular.
Electricians will certainly be busy,as well the electricity provider as there just won’t be the power available that is needed.
They are already talking blackouts in Qld this summer,and there are very few EVs around.
It will all fall over sooner or later.[bighmmm]

Which I think is great for local jobs (actually not just me, but Saul Griffith too, Saul Griffith - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Griffith), and Rewiring Australia (https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/#Why-Electrify) ) and the local economy. Not just during the construction phase but also for servicing, maintenance and repairs.

[NavyDiver]

This was interesting- it was rubbishing the idea we can EV very big tanks now!

"Each gallon of diesel contains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent) 38 kWh of energy, therefore requiring about 19,000 kWh of energy to propel an Abrams 250 miles under normal conditions using an internal combustion system"


"GM’s state-of-the-art Ultium battery, a new architecture that will find its way into the dozens of electric vehicles the company plans to launch in the coming years. The 2022 GMC Hummer EV is the first production vehicle to feature Ultium, and its 212.7 kWh battery pack weighs (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39049358/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-pickup-epa-specs/) 1.33 metric tons. Simple arithmetic yields a battery pack weight of approximately 40 metric tons required for our theoretical electric M1 Abrams!"

Cheeky my cut and past from SUBSTACK Doomberg!


The number change from 19000kWh down to 6333kWh was to do with EV motors being more efficient than internal Combustion engines. Doomberg was generous and allow a 3 times more efficient to the theoretical EV tank motor[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

It still makes me chuckle thinking of a TANK towing a power cable behind it[bigrolf][bigrolf]

EV /FCEV tanks might exist when tech catch's up with the Dreamers. The full funny yarn
Charge! - Doomberg (https://open.substack.com/pub/doomberg/p/charge?r=2mnr9t&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web)

[scarry]

Which I think is great for local jobs (actually not just me, but Saul Griffith too, Saul Griffith - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Griffith), and Rewiring Australia (https://www.rewiringaustralia.org/#Why-Electrify) ) and the local economy. Not just during the construction phase but also for servicing, maintenance and repairs.

Hopefully they can find suitably qualified people to do all this work.

I wonder who is going to end up paying for it all?

[scarry]

Yes right,should be fine,just destroy the charging infastructure,and those Tanks won't be going far.Easy as.

At least with fuel,it can come from lots of different places,and carried in different ways.

Anyway,oh well,some will have to learn the hard way[biggrin]

Lots of dreamers around is correct.

[Homestar]

"GM’s state-of-the-art Ultium battery, a new architecture that will find its way into the dozens of electric vehicles the company plans to launch in the coming years. The 2022 GMC Hummer EV is the first production vehicle to feature Ultium, and its 212.7 kWh battery pack weighs (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a39049358/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-pickup-epa-specs/) 1.33 metric tons.


So what's all the fuss about with this battery architecture? A 100KWh Tesla battery weighs 625Kg so almost the exact same power to weight ratio as the Tesla battery - are they just playing catch up or am I missing something?

[Homestar]

Hopefully they can find suitably qualified people to do all this work.

I wonder who is going to end up paying for it all?

For Tesla charging stations, Tesla have been footing the bill for stand alone charging stations but when they are part of a shopping centre, etc then the Power upgrade costs are paid for by the Shopping centre (so ultimaltey the consumer as rents etc will all be impaced by this - last one I was involved with, the new HV sub, cabling and switchboard set the centre back $740,000 and Tesla pay for the chargers and installation costs from the switchboard. So sit back and relax knowing you're paying for Tesla EV's to charge at your local Shopping Centre.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

4x2 petrol Hilux single cab with Ali tray is 1490Kg.

Why are we comparing a car to a 4WD? Tesla is an around town car same as a Corolla etc so I would be making any comparison against other similar cars.
so, would you consider a falcon sedan to be the same as a Corolla? Because a Tesla is the same size as a falcon.. Which I note was less than 200kg lighter than the tesla, empty.

[Homestar]

so, would you consider a falcon sedan to be the same as a Corolla?

In a word - yes. Both sedans that no one really wants to drive. 🤣

[scarry]

So ran into a customer of ours,who bought a BMW EV a few weeks ago.
He is finding it difficult to get used to,compared with the last ICE BMW.

Gets 5 yrs of free charging,as long as he uses a certain charger,luckily there is one near him.
But no doubt there is a guesstimate on how much power he will use and it is hidden in the vehicle cost.
Forty five minutes from 30% to 90%, which equates to a week of driving for him.
I forgot to ask what range he gets out of it.

BMW have said only charge it to 80% as that is better for the battery,but he likes to go to 90.

How the battery condition is won't really worry him as he changes vehicles over every 3 to 5 yrs.

Which brings up another point,the second hand market for EVs is going to be a nightmare,as some batteries will be in much in better condition than others.Maybe developing a way to do an accurate test might be the go.



So if it is only charged to 80%, that is 20% of range already gone,then allow at least 10% for margin,no one wants to run out,so down to around 70% of rated range.
And as we know the ‘real actual range’ will be even less.

[Homestar]

So ran into a customer of ours,who bought a BMW EV a few weeks ago.
He is finding it difficult to get used to,compared with the last ICE BMW.

Gets 5 yrs of free charging,as long as he uses a certain charger,luckily there is one near him.
But no doubt there is a guesstimate on how much power he will use and it is hidden in the vehicle cost.
Forty five minutes from 30% to 90%, which equates to a week of driving for him.
I forgot to ask what range he gets out of it.

BMW have said only charge it to 80% as that is better for the battery,but he likes to go to 90.

How the battery condition is won't really worry him as he changes vehicles over every 3 to 5 yrs.

Which brings up another point,the second hand market for EVs is going to be a nightmare,as some batteries will be in much in better condition than others.Maybe developing a way to do an accurate test might be the go.



So if it is only charged to 80%, that is 20% of range already gone,then allow at least 10% for margin,no one wants to run out,so down to around 70% of rated range.
And as we know the ‘real actual range’ will be even less.

The only way to test a battery is to run a full controlled charge and discharge cycle - we do this with our batteries at work every few months. The baby 9.6KWH batteries take around 2 days to test and return a result and the 45KWH batteries take over a week. This is with a commercial tester - I’m sure there are different ones that can do the discharge quicker as you’ll need to with an EV battery. Maybe some enterprising individual will start a business to test them and issue a report the owners can use when they sell a car on - it’s the only way I’d look at buying a secondhand EV.

[JDNSW]

I don't know if they do it yet in all cases, but I think we can expect this sort of information to be produced by a vehicle's battery management system. Maybe there needs to be some sort of standard to make this available, not only to would be purchasers, but to the owner who is needing to know whether to keep the vehicle or replace it?

[RANDLOVER]

The only way to test a battery is to run a full controlled charge and discharge cycle - we do this with our batteries at work every few months. The baby 9.6KWH batteries take around 2 days to test and return a result and the 45KWH batteries take over a week. This is with a commercial tester - I’m sure there are different ones that can do the discharge quicker as you’ll need to with an EV battery. Maybe some enterprising individual will start a business to test them and issue a report the owners can use when they sell a car on - it’s the only way I’d look at buying a secondhand EV.
Maybe now is the time to buy as not many superchargers around so most would be charged at home.

[Don 130]

Toyota concept EV Hilux here in OZ.

Toyota Debuts Hilux Electric Concept in Australia - Overland Expo(R) (https://www.overlandexpo.com/compass/toyota-debuts-hilux-electric-concept-in-australia/'mc_cid=990887eb18&mc_eid=46fb37bda8)

Don.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The only way to test a battery is to run a full controlled charge and discharge cycle - we do this with our batteries at work every few months. The baby 9.6KWH batteries take around 2 days to test and return a result and the 45KWH batteries take over a week. This is with a commercial tester - I’m sure there are different ones that can do the discharge quicker as you’ll need to with an EV battery. Maybe some enterprising individual will start a business to test them and issue a report the owners can use when they sell a car on - it’s the only way I’d look at buying a secondhand EV.

Teslas have a battery test mode built in - but you have to have them plugged into a charger and be prepared to do without the car for a day or so.

I think the whole battery degradation thing is over hyped. With Teslas anyway. Frankly I've been reading your posts for a while and I can't see any circumstance in which you'd buy any EV let alone a second hand one. [bigwhistle]

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So ran into a customer of ours,who bought a BMW EV a few weeks ago.
He is finding it difficult to get used to,compared with the last ICE BMW.

Gets 5 yrs of free charging,as long as he uses a certain charger,luckily there is one near him.
But no doubt there is a guesstimate on how much power he will use and it is hidden in the vehicle cost.
Forty five minutes from 30% to 90%, which equates to a week of driving for him.
I forgot to ask what range he gets out of it.

BMW have said only charge it to 80% as that is better for the battery,but he likes to go to 90.

How the battery condition is won't really worry him as he changes vehicles over every 3 to 5 yrs.

Which brings up another point,the second hand market for EVs is going to be a nightmare,as some batteries will be in much in better condition than others.Maybe developing a way to do an accurate test might be the go.



So if it is only charged to 80%, that is 20% of range already gone,then allow at least 10% for margin,no one wants to run out,so down to around 70% of rated range.
And as we know the ‘real actual range’ will be even less.
There has been by a bit of opposition to brands selling cars with "free charging" as it encourages owners to camp out at public chargers when many people can charge at home. Seems reasonable given public charging is still developing.

EV owners call for end to free fast charging to prevent charging queues (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/25/make-us-pay-ev-owners-say-they-want-free-fast-charging-offers-scrapped/)

[scarry]

There has been by a bit of opposition to brands selling cars with "free charging" as it encourages owners to camp out at public chargers when many people can charge at home. Seems reasonable given public charging is still developing.

EV owners call for end to free fast charging to prevent charging queues (https://thedriven.io/2023/07/25/make-us-pay-ev-owners-say-they-want-free-fast-charging-offers-scrapped/)

Nothing ever suits everyone.
So now they want to control where a vehicle is charged up?

And no doubt BMW,or whoever,won’t give two hoots about the problem.

The real problem is there are not enough public chargers,which is a problem that blind Freddy could see was going to happen.

[Homestar]

Teslas have a battery test mode built in - but you have to have them plugged into a charger and be prepared to do without the car for a day or so.

I think the whole battery degradation thing is over hyped. With Teslas anyway. Frankly I've been reading your posts for a while and I can't see any circumstance in which you'd buy any EV let alone a second hand one. [bigwhistle]

Well you haven’t read all my posts by a long way then as if you had you’d know I like EV’s and the tech, and am likely to buy one when we retire as a daily. I haven’t driven a heap of them just to rag on them but to see which ones I actually like. My points against them are based on my Electrical Engineering and Infrastructure knowledge, so I understand how hard it is going to be to scale them up which many people think it is so easy.

[Tins]

Hmmm, having to park 50 feet away from a structure could interfere with charging....

https://youtu.be/LwraIqtRFqM'si=2itNXL44F1FQWajT

[NavyDiver]

Well you haven’t read all my posts by a long way then as if you had you’d know I like EV’s and the tech, and am likely to buy one when we retire as a daily. I haven’t driven a heap of them just to rag on them but to see which ones I actually like. My points against them are based on my Electrical Engineering and Infrastructure knowledge, so I understand how hard it is going to be to scale them up which many people think it is so easy.

The failed three year old Tesla battery replaced did show they can remotely find faults. Noting that before it got back to them it was not possible to charge it at all. Blind Freddy could tell it was problem when that occurred [biggrin][biggrin]

Info copy and paste as usual for me
The Tesla battery is rated to IP66 or better, which means it is protected against strong jets of water (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ec2ab2087d8294a5JmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Mg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=40e827f1f76b25a8JmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Mw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1). The battery's electrical components, particularly those in the high voltage sections of the motor, speed controller, and battery, are rated to IP66 or better (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b6824fe1b3a5138eJmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=34dabd95b29d5feeJmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5NQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1). One or more modules are combined within an IP67-rated steel enclosure (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2c0e51c7602db940JmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Ng&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9zdGF0aWMxLnNxdWFyZXNwYWNlLmNvbS9zdG F0aWMvNWFmYjZjZmIyNWJmMDI1NTQ2MThkNDZmL3QvNWVlMmU2 YzFlNzM0MzY1ODdkODZjMWIzLzE1OTE5Mjg1MTMyOTMvVGVzbG FfUG93ZXJ3YWxsMl9CYXR0ZXJ5LVNhZmV0eS1PdmVydmlldy5w ZGY&ntb=1)2 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=c70934c7fd22ce2aJmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Nw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9zdGF0aWMxLnNxdWFyZXNwYWNlLmNvbS9zdG F0aWMvNWFmYjZjZmIyNWJmMDI1NTQ2MThkNDZmL3QvNWVlMmU2 YzFlNzM0MzY1ODdkODZjMWIzLzE1OTE5Mjg1MTMyOTMvVGVzbG FfUG93ZXJ3YWxsMl9CYXR0ZXJ5LVNhZmV0eS1PdmVydmlldy5w ZGY&ntb=1).

The post water fires show what Blind Freddy should know that the Tesla IP66 rating which is NOT water proof for swimming should take the advice if the car is sunk [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

PS My very light running watch is rated to 100M underwater. NO WAY I take it diving. My very old Seko automatic Diving watch is the only one for that[bigrolf] The fires in EV or faults in ICE post a deep swim are expected I think for most types.
Ps I brought a TOUGH diving watch when doing my 2nd Diving course with the Navy, First was PADI ( fun but PITA now)

I broke the tough one rated to 50m every day for 4 days in less than 10 metres of water, A sad day on the 4th day when I accepted a 100 m watch IF I DID NOT bring it back broken the next day, IT Broke at 10 M or less!

Not grumpy as it is funny!
EDIT I check my Diving log for the 10metre water edit[thumbsupbig]

[RANDLOVER]

A mate of mine used to say that the metre rating specified on a watch meant how far one had to keep it from water. [biggrin]

[RANDLOVER]

Hopefully they can find suitably qualified people to do all this work.

I wonder who is going to end up paying for it all?

What you are alluding to, perhaps without knowing it, is something called the "resource curse" which says that countries blessed with resources just exploit those without investing in the welfare, education and training of their people.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Well you haven’t read all my posts by a long way then as if you had you’d know I like EV’s and the tech, and am likely to buy one when we retire as a daily. I haven’t driven a heap of them just to rag on them but to see which ones I actually like. My points against them are based on my Electrical Engineering and Infrastructure knowledge, so I understand how hard it is going to be to scale them up which many people think it is so easy.

FYI This thread is up to 2700 posts. I aint got time fo dat!

[Homestar]

It’s only been going for 4 years, easy reading. [emoji106]

[Saitch]

PS My very light running watch is rated to 100M underwater. NO WAY I take it diving.


At my age, ND, if I find myself at a depth any where near 100 metres, the last thing I'd be worried about would be what time it is!

[scarry]

Hope this works,for those with FB maybe.


Converting Old Cars Into Electric Vehicles | The future is truly electric! ?? | By UNILAD Tech (https://fb.watch/m_HUTm-HoH/)

[NavyDiver]

At my age, ND, if I find myself at a depth any where near 100 metres, the last thing I'd be worried about would be what time it is!

20 minutes? I mean you must know how long your down Saitch. [bigrolf] Death by running out of air, Death by over staying or coming up to quickly, Death by not following or stopping for recompression stops.. ALL at time and essential mate [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]


The Civilian rulz

Maximum Dive Time (MDT)This is the time you can spend at a given depth without having to do a required decompression stop during ascent. This time is also known as the Maximum Allowable Dive Time or no-decompression ddmit.Decompression StopThis is a point in a dive where you stop at a specified depth for a specified time during ascent to allow nitrogen offgassing before continuing your ascent or surfacing.Precautionary Decompression StopThis is a stop at five meters (15 feet) for three minutes as a safety precaution when you have not exceeded the Maximum Dive Time. You should perform such a stop at the end of every dive. It is also known as a Safety Stop.Required Decompression StopThis is the amount of time specified by the NAUI Dive Tables, that you must spend at five meters (15 feet) whenever you exceed the Maximum Dive Time. Other tables specify additional stop depths for deeper or longer dives.Actual Dive Time (ADT)This is the elapsed time from the moment you begin your descent from the surface until the time you return to the surface. Time spent at your Safety Stop does not need to be included in the Actual Dive Time when determining your Letter Group.Residual NitrogenThis is the excess nitrogen remaining in your body from any dive or dives made before you have completely offgassed.Letter Group DesignationThis letter symbol identifies the amount of residual nitrogen you have in your system. The closer the letter is to the beginning of the alphabet, the less residual nitrogen you have in your body.Surface Interval Time (SIT)This is the time spent on the surface between dives. During this time, your body is eddminating excess nitrogen. Your Letter Group will change and move closer to the beginning of the alphabet, depending on how long you are on the surface.Repetitive DiveThis is any dive that you make before you have completely offgassed from any previous dive or dives.Residual Nitrogen Time (RNT)This is the amount of time you must consider as already having been spent at a given depth for a planned repetitive dive. This time is based on the residual nitrogen remaining in your body from a previous dive or dives.Adjusted Maximum Dive Time (AMDT)This is the Maximum Dive Time minus the Residual Nitrogen Time for a repetitive dive to a given depth.Total Nitrogen Time (TNT)This is the sum of your Residual Nitrogen Time and your Actual Dive Time following a repetitive dive. You use this total to obtain your new Letter Group at the end of the dive.


If we add fresh water and diving at altitude it gets very confusing so I will leave that alone[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[Arapiles]

The failed three year old Tesla battery replaced did show they can remotely find faults. Noting that before it got back to them it was not possible to charge it at all. Blind Freddy could tell it was problem when that occurred [biggrin][biggrin]

Info copy and paste as usual for me
The Tesla battery is rated to IP66 or better, which means it is protected against strong jets of water (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=ec2ab2087d8294a5JmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Mg&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=40e827f1f76b25a8JmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Mw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1). The battery's electrical components, particularly those in the high voltage sections of the motor, speed controller, and battery, are rated to IP66 or better (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=b6824fe1b3a5138eJmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5NA&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1)1 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=34dabd95b29d5feeJmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5NQ&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVkcml2ZW4uaW8vMjAxOC8xMi8wNC9pcy 1hLWJhdHRlcnktZWxlY3RyaWMtdmVoaWNsZS1zYWZlLWluLWEt Zmxvb2Qv&ntb=1). One or more modules are combined within an IP67-rated steel enclosure (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2c0e51c7602db940JmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Ng&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9zdGF0aWMxLnNxdWFyZXNwYWNlLmNvbS9zdG F0aWMvNWFmYjZjZmIyNWJmMDI1NTQ2MThkNDZmL3QvNWVlMmU2 YzFlNzM0MzY1ODdkODZjMWIzLzE1OTE5Mjg1MTMyOTMvVGVzbG FfUG93ZXJ3YWxsMl9CYXR0ZXJ5LVNhZmV0eS1PdmVydmlldy5w ZGY&ntb=1)2 (https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=c70934c7fd22ce2aJmltdHM9MTY5NDIxNzYwMCZpZ3VpZD0w YzI2OGJiNi1lZjE0LTY4NWQtMDZlOC04MDFiZWVhMjY5ZGUmaW 5zaWQ9NTc5Nw&ptn=3&hsh=3&fclid=0c268bb6-ef14-685d-06e8-801beea269de&psq=tesla+battery+IP+rating&u=a1aHR0cHM6Ly9zdGF0aWMxLnNxdWFyZXNwYWNlLmNvbS9zdG F0aWMvNWFmYjZjZmIyNWJmMDI1NTQ2MThkNDZmL3QvNWVlMmU2 YzFlNzM0MzY1ODdkODZjMWIzLzE1OTE5Mjg1MTMyOTMvVGVzbG FfUG93ZXJ3YWxsMl9CYXR0ZXJ5LVNhZmV0eS1PdmVydmlldy5w ZGY&ntb=1).

The post water fires show what Blind Freddy should know that the Tesla IP66 rating which is NOT water proof for swimming should take the advice if the car is sunk [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

PS My very light running watch is rated to 100M underwater. NO WAY I take it diving. My very old Seko automatic Diving watch is the only one for that[bigrolf] The fires in EV or faults in ICE post a deep swim are expected I think for most types.
Ps I brought a TOUGH diving watch when doing my 2nd Diving course with the Navy, First was PADI ( fun but PITA now)

I broke the tough one rated to 50m every day for 4 days in less than 10 metres of water, A sad day on the 4th day when I accepted a 100 m watch IF I DID NOT bring it back broken the next day, IT Broke at 10 M or less!

Not grumpy as it is funny!
EDIT I check my Diving log for the 10metre water edit[thumbsupbig]

Those "depth" ratings are actually pressure ratings, as in atmospheres (ATM) - which, if you go for a swim in a pool you can quickly overwhelm because when you punch your arm into the water doing, for example, freestyle, then the actual pressure on the watch can be a lot more than, say, the 10 ATM ("100m") rating the watch has.

I have an old Omega quartz watch that's supposed to be 100m water resistant and it has had its mechanism replaced twice after me just going for a swim after a battery change, where the jewellers who did the battery change guaranteed it would be waterproof.

[Arapiles]

20 minutes? I mean you must know how long your down Saitch. [bigrolf] Death by running out of air, Death by over staying or coming up to quickly, Death by not following or stopping for recompression stops.. ALL at time and essential mate [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]


The Civilian rulz

Maximum Dive Time (MDT)This is the time you can spend at a given depth without having to do a required decompression stop during ascent. This time is also known as the Maximum Allowable Dive Time or no-decompression ddmit.Decompression StopThis is a point in a dive where you stop at a specified depth for a specified time during ascent to allow nitrogen offgassing before continuing your ascent or surfacing.Precautionary Decompression StopThis is a stop at five meters (15 feet) for three minutes as a safety precaution when you have not exceeded the Maximum Dive Time. You should perform such a stop at the end of every dive. It is also known as a Safety Stop.Required Decompression StopThis is the amount of time specified by the NAUI Dive Tables, that you must spend at five meters (15 feet) whenever you exceed the Maximum Dive Time. Other tables specify additional stop depths for deeper or longer dives.Actual Dive Time (ADT)This is the elapsed time from the moment you begin your descent from the surface until the time you return to the surface. Time spent at your Safety Stop does not need to be included in the Actual Dive Time when determining your Letter Group.Residual NitrogenThis is the excess nitrogen remaining in your body from any dive or dives made before you have completely offgassed.Letter Group DesignationThis letter symbol identifies the amount of residual nitrogen you have in your system. The closer the letter is to the beginning of the alphabet, the less residual nitrogen you have in your body.Surface Interval Time (SIT)This is the time spent on the surface between dives. During this time, your body is eddminating excess nitrogen. Your Letter Group will change and move closer to the beginning of the alphabet, depending on how long you are on the surface.Repetitive DiveThis is any dive that you make before you have completely offgassed from any previous dive or dives.Residual Nitrogen Time (RNT)This is the amount of time you must consider as already having been spent at a given depth for a planned repetitive dive. This time is based on the residual nitrogen remaining in your body from a previous dive or dives.Adjusted Maximum Dive Time (AMDT)This is the Maximum Dive Time minus the Residual Nitrogen Time for a repetitive dive to a given depth.Total Nitrogen Time (TNT)This is the sum of your Residual Nitrogen Time and your Actual Dive Time following a repetitive dive. You use this total to obtain your new Letter Group at the end of the dive.


If we add fresh water and diving at altitude it gets very confusing so I will leave that alone[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

But if I do a free-dive holding my breath I don't need to decompress?

[NavyDiver]

But if I do a free-dive holding my breath I don't need to decompress? You and I cannot live if we freedive deep and stay long enough to require compression [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Trivia Deepest - Herbert Nitsch, often known better by his nickname as the "Deepest Man On Earth," 214 meters (702 feet). The female deepest dive world record holder goes to Tanya Streeter, who dove to a depth of 160 meters (524 feet) off the coast of Providenciales.

My depth record is happily a LOT closer to the surface.

[Homestar]

Not specifically EV related but Tesla got top spot in this one (which isn't a good thing) but all new cars suck as far as privacy goes (no surprise really) - Just a moment... (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/)


From the article -

Some not-so-fun facts about these rankings:



Tesla (https://foundation.mozilla.org/privacynotincluded/tesla/) is only the second product we have ever reviewed to receive all of our privacy “dings.” (The first was an AI chatbot (https://foundation.mozilla.org/privacynotincluded/replika-my-ai-friend/) we reviewed earlier this year.) What set them apart was earning the “untrustworthy AI” ding. The brand’s AI-powered autopilot was reportedly involved (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-autopilot-crashes-elon-musk/) in 17 deaths and 736 crashes and is currently the subject of multiple government investigations (https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/26/23809183/tesla-autopilot-investigation-false-advertising-california-attorney-general).

[NavyDiver]

Councils who do and those that HMMMM?

Stopped in Camperdown 4 times in the last few days. A 50kwh charger there is more than helpful. Coffee, Breakfast for a early Chemo Express appointment for a Diabetic in Geelong, Supermarket supplies...I spent over $100! the power cost about $5 or so each time as well.

Driving through Colac with a BIG smile on my face. The 4 electric Jesus fast chargers in Colac I cannot use are beside two SLOW electric Jesus chargers one of which one of which never works and the alleged 7kwph charge was closer to 5kwh.
Colac took me 3 hours to get enough power to get to any Decent charge points in my short range

Not sure why but no electric Jesus chargers are working for me now. One public one in Warrnambool refused to play as did one in Port Fairy. Not fussed really as the slow ones are really a PITA and could spoil a weekend[thumbsupbig]

It is interesting that electric Jesus chargers only charging Telsa on public land at councils' expense perhaps?

[Tins]

Not specifically EV related but Tesla got top spot in this one (which isn't a good thing) but all new cars suck as far as privacy goes (no surprise really) - Just a moment... (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/)


From the article -

Some not-so-fun facts about these rankings:



Tesla (https://foundation.mozilla.org/privacynotincluded/tesla/) is only the second product we have ever reviewed to receive all of our privacy “dings.” (The first was an AI chatbot (https://foundation.mozilla.org/privacynotincluded/replika-my-ai-friend/) we reviewed earlier this year.) What set them apart was earning the “untrustworthy AI” ding. The brand’s AI-powered autopilot was reportedly involved (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-autopilot-crashes-elon-musk/) in 17 deaths and 736 crashes and is currently the subject of multiple government investigations (https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/26/23809183/tesla-autopilot-investigation-false-advertising-california-attorney-general).



My D1 and OKA get more appealing by the day.

[JDNSW]

A bit off topic for this thread, but very much on topic for the last couple of posts - I had lunch on Tuesday with a friend - his TD5 110 is currently having issues, and so far he has only found one overworked workshop that has the the necessary software in Dubbo. The Landrover dealer (or ex-dealer, I am not sure which these days) wanted him to take it to Tamworth for analysis, as their software won't handle anything that old.

To echo Tins' comment - my Isuzu County is looking better every day.

[Arapiles]

Not specifically EV related but Tesla got top spot in this one (which isn't a good thing) but all new cars suck as far as privacy goes (no surprise really) - Just a moment... (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/)


From the article -

Some not-so-fun facts about these rankings:



Tesla (https://foundation.mozilla.org/privacynotincluded/tesla/) is only the second product we have ever reviewed to receive all of our privacy “dings.” (The first was an AI chatbot (https://foundation.mozilla.org/privacynotincluded/replika-my-ai-friend/) we reviewed earlier this year.) What set them apart was earning the “untrustworthy AI” ding. The brand’s AI-powered autopilot was reportedly involved (https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/10/tesla-autopilot-crashes-elon-musk/) in 17 deaths and 736 crashes and is currently the subject of multiple government investigations (https://www.theverge.com/2023/7/26/23809183/tesla-autopilot-investigation-false-advertising-california-attorney-general).



That, and Tesla employees accessing your cameras - including the in-cabin ones - while you're driving around.

[NavyDiver]

Every day it get closer. 600km 4wd and hmmm LDV concept which might come here

https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/next-generation-ldv-electric-ute-locked-in-for-australia/ar-AA1gDuzq?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=283842c7e8934a53bfc45503eeb3ed45&ei=11

Saw a LDV ice ute at a Holden Motor dealer or Former Holden now Multi function place trying to get a part for M&Ds old holden I brought them. Saw a heap of the same ute with a MG badge in Thailand!

It is a tangled web!

This got my attention "According to the company’s translated press release, its semi-solid state battery – which features cell-to-chassis construction – affords the concept 1000km of range."

That is from LDV reveals tough-looking quad-motor electric ute concept | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ldv-reveals-tough-looking-quad-motor-electric-ute-concept)

My Solid state favorite is really solid state and not starting until 2025 alas!

Are we there yet- NO[bawl]

[Homestar]

LDV ‘wants to offer 600KM range’

I want a new Range Rover Sport as a company car - it ain’t gunna happen though.

And although I’m looking forward to what solid state tech can do, to get from pretty much zero KM where we are basically now to 1000 is a big step.

[RANDLOVER]

I think this sort of thing, a car with electric driven wheels but with a motor and generator set is needed, until we have enough batteries, charging points, fuel cells, etc for everyone who wants one especially in vast Australia. I'm sure it will double the mileage, so halve fuel consumption or even better, if professional car companies work on refining the technology. I know there have been a few attempts, most famous was the Chevy Volt, which was even sold here, but car companies seem to want to keep ICE tech and I suppose larger engines mean larger parts and servicing costs, so larger profits. The guy in the video shows it is not that hard to do.

Turbo Diesel Cordless Tesla (2700 Miles without Charging) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seHWJMKwOQQ)

Chevrolet Volt - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt)

[vnx205]

Years ago I saw articles suggesting that a small turbine running on almost any fuel and at constant revs was a very efficient way to keep a battery topped up.
Has business pursued that idea. If not,why?
At the time it was made to sound like quite an attractive proposition.

[JDNSW]

I have not seen this suggested, but the issues I would expect are that the smaller you make a turbine, the lower its efficiency (a fundamental issue with surface/volume problems due to losing heat), and the manufacturing cost of small turbines is very high - you need to have a very high temperature turbine with expensive and difficult to form parts. And the smaller the turbine, the closer the clearances need to be to maintain efficiency.

I am not saying it can't be done, just that it is not as easy to do as it sounds. And worth pointing out that even very large turbines struggle to reach the efficiency of current internal combustion piston engines. (In this discussion, efficiency means thermal efficiency - turbines are by far the most efficient if you look at power/weight or power/volume.)

Then there is the minor issue of meeting emissions rules, especially during startup. Should be no issues with NOx, but unburnt hydrocarbons and CO are another matter.

[RANDLOVER]

Years ago I saw articles suggesting that a small turbine running on almost any fuel and at constant revs was a very efficient way to keep a battery topped up.
Has business pursued that idea. If not,why?
At the time it was made to sound like quite an attractive proposition.

JLR had a turbine powered Jag concept car Jaguar C-X75 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_C-X75) and Jay Leno has a Chrysler turbine car in his collection, now might be the time for a comeback as the lead in petrol depositing on the fan blades caused it's early demise. Chrysler Turbine Car - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car)

[101RRS]

Very small gas turbine engines certainly exist - used to use a portable two person Rover Gas Turbine Firefighting water pump. Required two persons to start it - had to be hand cranked to very high revs to fire up and the first guy would be knackered before too long with all the hand cranking then the second person had to take over - sometimes it would fire up mostly not.

Not a great piece of kit.

Garry

[JDNSW]

As some may be aware, Rover was a gas turbine pioneer, during WW2 tasked with converting Whittle's engine into something that could be manufactured, and the first UK aircraft to fly with gas turbines had Rover engines. But in about 1945, following a breakdown in relations with Whittle, they swapped their gas turbine section for Rolls Royce's tank engine business. But they retained what they had learnt about gas turbines and built a number of experimental gas turbine cars in the 1950s. And also built several auxiliary gas turbines as mentioned.

[scarry]

No Cookies | The Courier Mail (https://www.couriermail.com.au/motoring/motoring-news/battery-fire-destroys-five-cars-at-sydney-airport/news-story/b267d773c390f88cb7d2f640aaeab569)

Very lucky only one EV was involved,and a faulty battery,as far as i can work out from the article.

[cripesamighty]

From what I have seen on a couple of other links (including John Cadogan) the EV involved was parked in the back corner of the Hire Car parking lot near the Sydney airport control tower when it consumed itself. The person hiring it had run over something and brought it back in with a damaged battery. Some time after parking the car, they removed the damaged battery but left it out, and a week or two later after some heavy rain, the water got in and then, 'up she went'.

[NavyDiver]

A fire proof battery- Not yet - "Toyota appears to be at an advanced stage of solid-state battery development and promised in June 2023 that its breakthrough will lead to a solid-state battery capable of delivering 745 miles range (https://insideevs.com/news/675517/toyota-battery-breakthrough-745-miles-range/?utm_source=msn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=msn-feed) and recharge in just 10 minutes. It aims to bring its solid-state batteries to market by 2027-2028."

Cut from
Toyota Reveals Cutting-Edge Electric Vehicle Production Line In Japan


Story by Suvrat Kothari •4h
Alway some time later[bawl][bawl][bawl] On the bright side I will get 50k out of the about to be delivered MG4. On the funny side I took dad to respite care in Port Lonsdale. Three electric jesus cars in free EV charging car parks. A CCS was my 30 minute stop. One of the electric jesus cars was not plugged in just parked [bigwhistle] Plug share is a site used to find charging places. Uploaded a photo of the VIP to that site[bigrolf]

[prelude]

So ran into a customer of ours,who bought a BMW EV a few weeks ago.
He is finding it difficult to get used to,compared with the last ICE BMW.

Gets 5 yrs of free charging,as long as he uses a certain charger,luckily there is one near him.
But no doubt there is a guesstimate on how much power he will use and it is hidden in the vehicle cost.
Forty five minutes from 30% to 90%, which equates to a week of driving for him.
I forgot to ask what range he gets out of it.

BMW have said only charge it to 80% as that is better for the battery,but he likes to go to 90.

How the battery condition is won't really worry him as he changes vehicles over every 3 to 5 yrs.

Which brings up another point,the second hand market for EVs is going to be a nightmare,as some batteries will be in much in better condition than others.Maybe developing a way to do an accurate test might be the go.



So if it is only charged to 80%, that is 20% of range already gone,then allow at least 10% for margin,no one wants to run out,so down to around 70% of rated range.
And as we know the ‘real actual range’ will be even less.

I find that to be the most egregious thing with lithium batteries "you can use 100% of them!". Well, yes, you can do that with every battery. Not all of them like it as much but it is clear to me that Lithium is oversold IMHO. My girl is never nice to her phone battery, she regularly depletes it to within a few percent and plonks it on the fast charger all the way up to 100% after that. A few years down the road and the wear is clearly noticeable. I on the other hand keep the charge between 20% and 80% most of the time (I rarely charge to 100%) and use the good ol' 5 watt brick and have significantly more battery life left.

Then again, zooming around Thessaloniki on an e-step/scooter was fun and the battery is the problem of the company renting them out... I guess so it goes with most EV owners at this time; "that's a problem for future someone"

-P

[Homestar]

I find that to be the most egregious thing with lithium batteries "you can use 100% of them!". Well, yes, you can do that with every battery. Not all of them like it as much but it is clear to me that Lithium is oversold IMHO. My girl is never nice to her phone battery, she regularly depletes it to within a few percent and plonks it on the fast charger all the way up to 100% after that. A few years down the road and the wear is clearly noticeable. I on the other hand keep the charge between 20% and 80% most of the time (I rarely charge to 100%) and use the good ol' 5 watt brick and have significantly more battery life left.

Then again, zooming around Thessaloniki on an e-step/scooter was fun and the battery is the problem of the company renting them out... I guess so it goes with most EV owners at this time; "that's a problem for future someone"

-P

Agreed - we set our large batteries (45KWH and 125KWH) to bring on the Gen to charge them at 40% SOC - we’ve had one out for 20 months now running continuously and there’s no noticeable degradation in output yet. For $200K a pop for the bigger ones we want them to last a while.

[101RRS]

The joys of interstate travel in a EV.

A friend of mine has BYD EV and he normally gets somewhere around 400km out of a full charge. Today he is/was driving from Sydney to Melbourne.

Like all good EV drivers he carefully planned his trip down the Hume Highway and included a couple of "splash and dash" fill ups in addition serious charges just to keep himself well topped up.

He is in Euroa and is now going to have to stop there for the night. He was expecting the charger to deliver its 7kw charging rate and he calculated that he would get enough juice to make Melbourne while he had dinner.

See this pic
187156

He is at 19% charge but the charger is only giving 1.1kw and if he went to full charge it would take 45 hours. He said his trickle charger in his garage does better than this.

I have suggested trying to get enough juice to get to Seymour where there maybe a better charger but I think at this time of night he has given up and is staying at a motel.

The joys of EVs [bigwhistle]

PS - he just messaged me that he has found a Tesla charger that he can charge from but a selfish Tesla driver has put his car on charge and just left the Tesla in the charging bay so no one else can use it.

[NavyDiver]

The joys of interstate travel in a EV.

A friend of mine has BYD EV and he normally gets somewhere around 400km out of a full charge. Today he is/was driving from Sydney to Melbourne.

Like all good EV drivers he carefully planned his trip down the Hume Highway and included a couple of "splash and dash" fill ups in addition serious charges just to keep himself well topped up.

He is in Euroa and is now going to have to stop there for the night. He was expecting the charger to deliver its 7kw charging rate and he calculated that he would get enough juice to make Melbourne while he had dinner.

See this pic
187156

He is at 19% charge but the charger is only giving 1.1kw and if he went to full charge it would take 45 hours. He said his trickle charger in his garage does better than this.

I have suggested trying to get enough juice to get to Seymour where there maybe a better charger but I think at this time of night he has given up and is staying at a motel.

The joys of EVs [bigwhistle]

PS - he just messaged me that he has found a Tesla charger that he can charge from but a selfish Tesla driver has put his car on charge and just left the Tesla in the charging bay so no one else can use it.
I bet the Eletric Jesus charger will not work for him! Just tried one in Geelong for fun. Reports all over Plug Share saying they are not working for BYD. I just added MG to the fail as well. My Telsa app is fully configured and tried to start the charge. It could not as it cannot see/detect my car which is the same issue reported by other BYD drivers.
There are dozens of Fast Chargers on the HUME.
Charging map | Transport for NSW (https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/electric-vehicles/charging-an-electric-vehicle/charging-map)

If my new one is here I will take it to Brisbane and Back for a wedding in 3 week. I might do up in a day and back over 2 to be kind to myself[biggrin]

Suggest your friend uses PLUGSHARE app. Configured to CCS only and NOT Eletric Jesus types.

[NavyDiver]

Morning Cherry- A ship load of new EVs? Mines on it. Off Port Kembla on the way to Melbourne Soon I hope!

https://static.vesselfinder.net/ship-photo/9675585-357076000-7b5acc5d7d4918d3479ef086aef0d3ef/1?v1

Anyone wanting a 50,000 plus a bit km Black MG XS ev with a few years of new car warranty left call me. offers about the trade in amount of 32K considered.

MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/shipid:420072/zoom:10)

[NavyDiver]

Seems fair. Power prices change so charging prices can as well[biggrin] I appreciate business need to make money and that is a bit tricky for EV charging currently. The $30 to $36 for a E.J. Mod y battery 60kWH full charge is clearly not a huge money spinner!

On weekdays from 7AM to 10PM pricing at the Heatherbrae station is $0.60kWh per kWh, and on all weekends and weekdays from 10 PM to 7AM pricing is $0.50 per kWh.
Based on the pricing at this station in New South Wales, the cost of fully charging a Tesla Model Y RWD with its 60kWh battery pack varies between $30 and $36, depending on day and time.
For now pricing at the majority of the other BP Pulse charging stations remains fixed at $0.55 per kWh.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The Tesla passed 5000k while we were away from home. At current electricity prices (big price rise) we've spent $250 to charge it at home over that time. It's not been charged out of the home other than a couple of test charges.

The 98 we used to put in the Golf is currently sitting at $2.60 (gasp). So about $910 in fuel. So I reckon the tesla energy costs are between 1/4 and 1/3 of the Golf. At todays prices, the Defender would have used around $1500 for the same mileage.

[Xtreme]

The Tesla passed 5000k while we were away from home. At current electricity prices (big price rise) we've spent $250 to charge it at home over that time. It's not been charged out of the home other than a couple of test charges.

The 98 we used to put in the Golf is currently sitting at $2.60 (gasp). So about $910 in fuel. So I reckon the tesla energy costs are between 1/4 and 1/3 of the Golf. At todays prices, the Defender would have used around $1500 for the same mileage.

But I'd get more pleasure out of the Defender than a Tesla! :whistling::Rolling:

BTW, at present diesel prices ($2.20/l) it appears that you're only getting 13.6 l/100km from your Defender. Should be closer to 10 or 11 l/100 for a Td5.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

But I'd get more pleasure out of the Defender than a Tesla! :whistling::Rolling:

BTW, at present diesel prices ($2.20/l) it appears that you're only getting 13.6 l/100km from your Defender. Should be closer to 10 or 11 l/100 for a Td5.
Diesel this morning is 232.9 in Brisbane.

I worked on that price and 12 l/100.

Long term around town when light it will sometimes go below 12. I've seen 10.5 in the recent past but never less than that. Typically 11-12 which I think is pretty acceptable. It seems to use a little less when run on BP ultimate. Things that knock it around are headwinds, being covered in stuff for overlanding, air filters getting blocked.

On the highway coming back from the Simpson earlier in the week and it was averaging 13.7 due to winds. Crossing the simpson (twice) it averaged 14.5 which is very good IMHO.

I reckon 12 is a pretty reasonable average. I'm not at home today so can't look at the book, but we've logged the fuel usage for every tank since we got it. I looked the other day.. was $1 a litre in 2005.

[Homestar]

The Tesla passed 5000k while we were away from home. At current electricity prices (big price rise) we've spent $250 to charge it at home over that time. It's not been charged out of the home other than a couple of test charges.

The 98 we used to put in the Golf is currently sitting at $2.60 (gasp). So about $910 in fuel. So I reckon the tesla energy costs are between 1/4 and 1/3 of the Golf. At todays prices, the Defender would have used around $1500 for the same mileage.

One thing I can never seem to get my head around is people who say they buy an EV to save money or try and justify their purchase by saying such things - it just doesn't make any sense to me. Just running some quick numbers and say your in the market for a mid sized car - Model 3 Tesla fits the bill for an EV - Mid spec $72K and lets say a Mazda 6 for an ICE version - Mid spec $42K - I'll use these as I've driven both and for room etc and overall size they are similar - Mazda is slightly larger but close. Mazda is also better finshed and better appointed IMO. Let's say overall fuel use around 8L per 100KM - factory claims less than this but we know this is BS anyway.

For 5000KM of driving that's 400 litres or $900 at $2.25 a litre for 91.
$250 for the Tesla for the same KM.

So at that rate, you'll need to put 230,000KM on the Tesla to be ahead. Not sure on your yearly KM but at an average of 13,000 for Australians that's 17 years of driving. Take a bit off for servicing of the ICE etc but it's not way out by any stretch. Now I know a Mazda won't need a new engine or gearbox in 230,000KM or 17 years as we've had plenty of these in the family and at those KM they still drive perfectly. Jury is still out (and will be for years yet) on battery and EV longevity so who knows if the Tesla will still be on the road then.

Now, I'll make an assumption here - correct me if I'm wrong. You like driving fast and accelerating hard? Username of Captain Rightfoot, a Golf that takes 98 - so a TSI or similar? Owns a Tesla? If the answer is yes and you love driving it, then that is absolutely fine and personally what I'd lead with. 'I bought and drive a Tesla because I love driving it and it blows ICE vehicles into the weeds!' - No one could or would argue with that statement but please don't tell me how much you're saving by owning one - the numbers just don't add up and which way you try and spin them. As cheaper EV's hit the market - the MG4 is the closest yet I think to being a contender, then this may change and be a legitimate reason but a Tesla doesn't fall into that category. Drive it, love it, smirk every time you pass an ICE car, you don't need to justify you're choice. [smilebigeye]

[NavyDiver]

One thing I can never seem to get my head around is people who say they buy an EV to save money or try and justify their purchase by saying such things - it just doesn't make any sense to me. Just running some quick numbers and say your in the market for a mid sized car - Model 3 Tesla fits the bill for an EV - Mid spec $72K and lets say a Mazda 6 for an ICE version - Mid spec $42K - I'll use these as I've driven both and for room etc and overall size they are similar - Mazda is slightly larger but close. Mazda is also better finshed and better appointed IMO. Let's say overall fuel use around 8L per 100KM - factory claims less than this but we know this is BS anyway.

For 5000KM of driving that's 400 litres or $900 at $2.25 a litre for 91.
$250 for the Tesla for the same KM.

So at that rate, you'll need to put 230,000KM on the Tesla to be ahead. Not sure on your yearly KM but at an average of 13,000 for Australians that's 17 years of driving. Take a bit off for servicing of the ICE etc but it's not way out by any stretch. Now I know a Mazda won't need a new engine or gearbox in 230,000KM or 17 years as we've had plenty of these in the family and at those KM they still drive perfectly. Jury is still out (and will be for years yet) on battery and EV longevity so who knows if the Tesla will still be on the road then.

Now, I'll make an assumption here - correct me if I'm wrong. You like driving fast and accelerating hard? Username of Captain Rightfoot, a Golf that takes 98 - so a TSI or similar? Owns a Tesla? If the answer is yes and you love driving it, then that is absolutely fine and personally what I'd lead with. 'I bought and drive a Tesla because I love driving it and it blows ICE vehicles into the weeds!' - No one could or would argue with that statement but please don't tell me how much you're saving by owning one - the numbers just don't add up and which way you try and spin them. As cheaper EV's hit the market - the MG4 is the closest yet I think to being a contender, then this may change and be a legitimate reason but a Tesla doesn't fall into that category. Drive it, love it, smirk every time you pass an ICE car, you don't need to justify you're choice. [smilebigeye]

The cost of cars can be a labor of SHHH? My 2005 Disco was. The 2010 with the replacement engine was as well.

I just read a sporty golf might cost more than a sporty version of MG4? Not suggesting quality is the same.

Servicing is not a bit of a cost or was not for my Disco(s)? The Landy Smile might be a bit like a EV smug mug grin :)

The Golf Golf GTI 6.4 seconds to 100KPH
The mg 4 performance ( not the one I am getting) "MG Confirms $59,990 Price for MG4 XPOWER Performance Flagship EV" The MG 4 XPower electric hot hatch from China promises Holden Commodore or Ford Falcon V8-like power – and Tesla-like acceleration – for less than $60,000 before on-road costs.

Apples to apples the VW is slower and 20K more! :) "It is capable of a claimed 0-100km/h acceleration time of 3.8 seconds – faster than a $280,000 Porsche 911 Carrera, and a match for Australia's quickest hot hatch to date, the turbo-petrol $90,000 Audi RS3."

Audi Porche and VW cost more and slower? Running costs clearly lower or the MG4 as well. I think 5000km is cost me a lot less than the $250. I am sure it would be possible to pay more IF I could pay for Eletric Jesus super dupe not so fast chargers and only used them :)

None of above helps me tow my boat :(

[Captain_Rightfoot]

One thing I can never seem to get my head around is people who say they buy an EV to save money or try and justify their purchase by saying such things - it just doesn't make any sense to me. Just running some quick numbers and say your in the market for a mid sized car - Model 3 Tesla fits the bill for an EV - Mid spec $72K and lets say a Mazda 6 for an ICE version - Mid spec $42K - I'll use these as I've driven both and for room etc and overall size they are similar - Mazda is slightly larger but close. Mazda is also better finshed and better appointed IMO. Let's say overall fuel use around 8L per 100KM - factory claims less than this but we know this is BS anyway.

For 5000KM of driving that's 400 litres or $900 at $2.25 a litre for 91.
$250 for the Tesla for the same KM.

So at that rate, you'll need to put 230,000KM on the Tesla to be ahead. Not sure on your yearly KM but at an average of 13,000 for Australians that's 17 years of driving. Take a bit off for servicing of the ICE etc but it's not way out by any stretch. Now I know a Mazda won't need a new engine or gearbox in 230,000KM or 17 years as we've had plenty of these in the family and at those KM they still drive perfectly. Jury is still out (and will be for years yet) on battery and EV longevity so who knows if the Tesla will still be on the road then.

Now, I'll make an assumption here - correct me if I'm wrong. You like driving fast and accelerating hard? Username of Captain Rightfoot, a Golf that takes 98 - so a TSI or similar? Owns a Tesla? If the answer is yes and you love driving it, then that is absolutely fine and personally what I'd lead with. 'I bought and drive a Tesla because I love driving it and it blows ICE vehicles into the weeds!' - No one could or would argue with that statement but please don't tell me how much you're saving by owning one - the numbers just don't add up and which way you try and spin them. As cheaper EV's hit the market - the MG4 is the closest yet I think to being a contender, then this may change and be a legitimate reason but a Tesla doesn't fall into that category. Drive it, love it, smirk every time you pass an ICE car, you don't need to justify you're choice. [smilebigeye]

I was mostly only offering it for interest for the people in the thread. :D I was surprised at the difference.

I actually bought it because it's a really nice car, and with the fbt concessions available it actually cost me about the same as a nice golf. Really good value. A lot of car (space) for the money. When we bought our golf it was 34 in 2016.. leather highline. Apparently the rough equivalent is now closer to 50. Cars are expensive.

Plus thank your deity of choice, not only is the energy significantly cheaper, but I'm not compelled to make a servicing donation to the dealer every year as well. Plus frankly the golf had such great repair costs in what was a new car that it actually wasn't really viable to run. Way to go VW.

[Arapiles]

One thing I can never seem to get my head around is people who say they buy an EV to save money or try and justify their purchase by saying such things - it just doesn't make any sense to me. Just running some quick numbers and say your in the market for a mid sized car - Model 3 Tesla fits the bill for an EV - Mid spec $72K and lets say a Mazda 6 for an ICE version - Mid spec $42K - I'll use these as I've driven both and for room etc and overall size they are similar - Mazda is slightly larger but close. Mazda is also better finshed and better appointed IMO. Let's say overall fuel use around 8L per 100KM - factory claims less than this but we know this is BS anyway.

For 5000KM of driving that's 400 litres or $900 at $2.25 a litre for 91.
$250 for the Tesla for the same KM.

So at that rate, you'll need to put 230,000KM on the Tesla to be ahead. Not sure on your yearly KM but at an average of 13,000 for Australians that's 17 years of driving. Take a bit off for servicing of the ICE etc but it's not way out by any stretch. Now I know a Mazda won't need a new engine or gearbox in 230,000KM or 17 years as we've had plenty of these in the family and at those KM they still drive perfectly. Jury is still out (and will be for years yet) on battery and EV longevity so who knows if the Tesla will still be on the road then.

I've read similar analyses purporting to prove that you can't amortise the additional cost of a diesel, where with a particular vehicle there's the choice of a diesel or a petrol. Or these days, a
pHEV vs a petrol. The argument is a complete furphy. You need to look at how much of the acquisition difference is there when you sell it - as an example, with the LC200s the diesels held their value so when you sold them you got back the initial price difference. And in the interim you got better economy and range. Ditto for, for example, the Sorento PHEV. And the indications are that BEVs, particularly Teslas, actually hold their value better than ICE vehicles:

Teslas Are Retaining Their Resale Value Despite Price-Cut Frenzy (https://www.businessinsider.com/used-tesla-prices-retaining-value-despite-elon-musk-price-cuts-2023-4)

[3toes]

There is a large volume of marketing speel from interested parties presented as facts about electric vehicles. Despite what you might read there is not even a global agreement that electric is the way to go. They will work for some and not for others

One problem with all these calculations about cost comparison is they have a habit of being produced for the interested parties and the base numbers tend to be selected to show a desired outcome. Nothing new there has been done by politicians and marketing people since the first day they emerged from the oceans and started to move on land

From my recent experience in a project I have been working on future values of electric vehicles are not known with any certainty. I have seen Tesla values for same vehicle miles and condition fluctuate by £10k in a week. The rest of them are the same so not just Tesla. One of the manufacturers was actually buying them up pre auction in an attempt to take supply out of the market to shore up values

Problem is that tax incentives makes them attractive for a new purchase. This drives new demand but the second hand market does not receive the same benefits and so a petrol or diesel makes far better economic sense to them

There is also the question of who will be the winners on the electric car market and who will pull out? No one wants a vehicle that the manufacturer no longer exists to support. I would not want to bet on who will still be here in 10 years. While perhaps not such a factor in new vehicle sales it is showing real evidence of impacting the used market. This then further impacts values

Tesla recent price reduction has really hits used values hard across the market. This is then impacting the leasing companies who booked a value based on what was already a difficult market. Their risk committees were already nervous. There are some big losses based on predicted values and new real market values when these vehicles come back from the user and have to be sold

[Homestar]

I've read similar analyses purporting to prove that you can't amortise the additional cost of a diesel, where with a particular vehicle there's the choice of a diesel or a petrol. Or these days, a
pHEV vs a petrol. The argument is a complete furphy. You need to look at how much of the acquisition difference is there when you sell it - as an example, with the LC200s the diesels held their value so when you sold them you got back the initial price difference. And in the interim you got better economy and range. Ditto for, for example, the Sorento PHEV. And the indications are that BEVs, particularly Teslas, actually hold their value better than ICE vehicles:

Teslas Are Retaining Their Resale Value Despite Price-Cut Frenzy (https://www.businessinsider.com/used-tesla-prices-retaining-value-despite-elon-musk-price-cuts-2023-4)

The Boss has an LC200 which is around 3 years old - top spec and immaculate. He was just offered $10K more than he paid for it - as a trade in for a 300. He declined. It was in for a scheduled service and the Sales Manager came out to see him when he picked it up.

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The Boss has an LC200 which is around 3 years old - top spec and immaculate. He was just offered $10K more than he paid for it - as a trade in for a 300. He declined. It was in for a scheduled service and the Sales Manager came out to see him when he picked it up.
These are crazy times. Unprecedented. I wouldn't read too much into used values for the last few years.

When supply normalises resale will too.

[JDNSW]

Perhaps!