EV general discussion

[Eevo]

I watched a good explanation of this on 'Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles' YouTube channel
love his channel.

[JDNSW]

A lot of research into cooling was done in the 1930s as aircraft became streamlined enough that the gains from this became significant, and by the start of WW2 a number of aircraft had not only reduced the cooling drag to insignificant levels but were achieving additional thrust from the cooling system. One example that comes to mind is the DH-91 four engined airliner. But this example also points out the main reason this approach was not used more widely - it requires very close integration of the airframe with a particular engine design, in this case an engine (Gipsy-12) designed for the aircraft and not used elsewhere.

[NavyDiver]

EV is not just our little trucks[biggrin] Noticed a very cool WA based company now moving as fast and a lot more quietly into EV at a ship/ferry level.


Volta by Austal (https://volta.austal.com/#innovation)

[NavyDiver]

https://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net/imagegen/max/ccr/1023/-/s3/digital-cougar-assets/whichcar/2021/03/15/-1/eBeam-2.jpg

This looks interesting. I wonder if[thumbsupbig]
Magna eBeam rear axle turns regular utes into electric vehicles (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/magna-ebeam-electric-ute-conversions)

[goingbush]

One in the front too and we are in business, a bit of unsprung weight there, not much more than a Salisbury though .

unsprung weight wont be a problem in big rigs
The present and future of electric axles (https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/present-future-electric-axles/)

[Homestar]

EV is not just our little trucks[biggrin] Noticed a very cool WA based company now moving as fast and a lot more quietly into EV at a ship/ferry level.


Volta by Austal (https://volta.austal.com/#innovation)

Ferries are very good scenarios for electric - known times on the water under way and known times at each end unloading and loading so battery size and charge times can be calculated quite accurately. Makes a lot of sense. [emoji106]

[Old Farang]

EV is not just our little trucks[biggrin] Noticed a very cool WA based company now moving as fast and a lot more quietly into EV at a ship/ferry level.

Volta by Austal (https://volta.austal.com/#innovation)

There are several electric ferries operating in Bangkok:

Bangkok becoming electric ferry capital of the world
Bangkok becoming electric ferry capital of the world - Plugboats (https://plugboats.com/bangkok-becoming-electric-ferry-capital-of-the-world/)

With more than 200 e-ferries planned, Thailand’s ‘Venice of the East’ could be on its way to becoming the electric ferry capital of the world.
A few weeks ago, on the 160th anniversary of the creation of the Thailand Marine Department, its Director General Wittaya Yamuang said “By 2021, there should be up to 30 ferries providing service before it expands to 200 ferries throughout the country in three to four years.”

[NavyDiver]

EV ferries Cheaper and no pollution which Bangkok is and has been for a long time infamous for. No brainer I think.

One of the things I like about hydrogen and battery is the strong possibility many less development countries areas will enjoy a major jump by not having to install Billions plus of infrastructure. Its not just off grid survival types that can benefit [biggrin] The Asian renewable Energy hub in the Pilbara is huge scale. 100 times smaller would cover almost any large industry application anywhere in Australia and elsewhere.


Still want a Hydrogen ferry to Rottenest for my next visit to Perth. Noted Rottenest WA is only about 30% or less for water and power now. Wind and Solar 70% ish. Move a little hydrogen from "Woodman Point Wastewater Treatment Plant in Munster will produce around 100 tonnes of fuel-grade hydrogen and 380 tonnes of graphite each year, with the potential for expansion." It will be on line later this year[thumbsupbig]

[PhilipA]

At the risk of encouraging all of the Tesla and "Elon Jesus" adherents out there I just found this quite good analysis of aging Tesla vehicle issues .

As Teslas Age | Gruber Motors - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpPyBYRDcM&ab_channel=GruberMotorCompany)

I found it very informative .
Regards PhilipA
I won't do a "certain member" and post another link but if you open the Gruber link and subscribe there is also a video there of how they fix dead battery packs on old Teslas. If 1 of the 7000 cells goes bad it kills the entire battery. WOW!

[PhilipA]

I found this article on claimed ranges quite interesting. Tesla seems to be "gilding the Lily" a bit.


Tesla's EPA Driving Ranges Didn't Hold Up to Testing. It Tried Again and Still Fell Short (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39959/teslas-epa-driving-ranges-didnt-hold-up-to-testing-it-tried-again-and-still-fell-short)

Regards PhilipA

[cripesamighty]

That's probably why they removed the range calculator from their website.

[NavyDiver]

I found this article on claimed ranges quite interesting. Tesla seems to be "gilding the Lily" a bit.


Tesla's EPA Driving Ranges Didn't Hold Up to Testing. It Tried Again and Still Fell Short (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39959/teslas-epa-driving-ranges-didnt-hold-up-to-testing-it-tried-again-and-still-fell-short)

Regards PhilipA

Thanks Philip The better half dove in with a Model3 last week which arrived last Wednesday - a run to Port Fairy and back showed it could do 400km+ with spare. She was a tad more cautious and charged it. Noted the cost from 20% to 100% charge via a home power point was about $13 over night - My D3 with boat was closer to $140[bawl] and did require another drink at Geelong on the way back. [bigsad]

Sub 70k car under luxury car tax. Trivia. It has a FUN BOX app which allegedly give fart noises when you sit. Can be set to different noises for all seat. Not sure If I am brave enough to hope in now I know[thumbsupbig]

[vnx205]

I found this article on claimed ranges quite interesting. Tesla seems to be "gilding the Lily" a bit.


Tesla's EPA Driving Ranges Didn't Hold Up to Testing. It Tried Again and Still Fell Short (thedrive.com) (https://www.thedrive.com/tech/39959/teslas-epa-driving-ranges-didnt-hold-up-to-testing-it-tried-again-and-still-fell-short)

Regards PhilipA

It seems they have followed the trend set by ICE vehicle manufacturers.

For years they have been publishing very unrealistic fuel consumption figures which are achievable only in tightly controlled test conditions.

[Tombie]

It seems they have followed the trend set by ICE vehicle manufacturers.

For years they have been publishing very unrealistic fuel consumption figures which are achievable only in tightly controlled test conditions.

Only meant to be indicative for comparison purposes.

[PhilipA]

Thanks Philip The better half dove in with a Model3 last week which arrived last Wednesday - a run to Port Fairy and back showed it could do 400km+ with spare. She was a tad more cautious and charged it. Noted the cost from 20% to 100% charge via a home power point was about $13 over night - My D3 with boat was closer to $140[bawl] and did require another drink at Geelong on the way back. [bigsad]
I should just shut up but I cannot resist.
So .... you bought an 80K car that is equivalent to a 30K car in size, but better performance and you talk about how cheap it is to fill up.
50K will buy a lot of petrol.

petrol is taxed at 50cents per litre and electricity is not (well 10% GST)

if you had say driven a Mazda 3 equivalent in size to a model 3 for the same distance then it would have used only a fraction of the 50cents per litre taxed fuel compared to a D3 towing a boat.

A Mazda 3 gets about 7lper 100Km on the highway.
My Google says Melbourne to Port fairy is about 560Km via the GOR so there is no way she would have made it both ways in a Model 3 without say an hour charge.( if in fact you travelled the GOR)

Even at The Mazda 3 would have used 40 litres or less for the same journey at say 1.40 per litre or $56 or $36 without petrol tax.

So the payback of 50K at say lets be generous 20,000 Km per year is $2000 so payback time is 25 years. If petrol were not taxed at 50 cents per litre the payback would be around 30 years or so.

Regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

[bigsad]
I should just shut up but I cannot resist.
So .... you bought an 80K car that is equivalent to a 30K car in size, but better performance and you talk about how cheap it is to fill up.
50K will buy a lot of petrol.

petrol is taxed at 50cents per litre and electricity is not (well 10% GST)

if you had say driven a Mazda 3 equivalent in size to a model 3 for the same distance then it would have used only a fraction of the 50cents per litre taxed fuel compared to a D3 towing a boat.

A Mazda 3 gets about 7lper 100Km on the highway.
My Google says Melbourne to Port fairy is about 560Km via the GOR so there is no way she would have made it both ways in a Model 3 without say an hour charge.( if in fact you travelled the GOR)

Even at The Mazda 3 would have used 40 litres or less for the same journey at say 1.40 per litre or $56 or $36 without petrol tax.

So the payback of 50K at say lets be generous 20,000 Km per year is $2000 so payback time is 25 years. If petrol were not taxed at 50 cents per litre the payback would be around 30 years or so.

Regards PhilipA

I've read similar compariosns for petrol vs diesel - what you need to take into account is the re-sale value: you don't have to amortise the difference in price in fuel savings.

[PhilipA]

I've read similar compariosns for petrol vs diesel - what you need to take into account is the re-sale value: you don't have to amortise the difference in price in fuel savings.


Arapiles

I don't know which way you are arguing.

The battery is guaranteed for 8 years and Model Xs are generally doing better but lets say 10 years and the cost of replacement is currently USD20000 or what's that 28K OZ.

There is one repair facility in the USA who are able to fix batteries in certain circumstances but AFAIK none in OZ at present.

A Model X with a dud battery has virtually no resale value and and the battery can be disabled if only one of the 69000 cells shorts out.

Nissan Leafs which are the most popular EV in the World have horrific resale value.

Regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

Nissan Leafs which are the most popular EV in the World have horrific resale value.

Regards PhilipA

Apparently not:

If you were to graph three-year retained values of all cars in Australia, the fattest part of the bell curve would be slightly above the 50 percent mark*. Believe it or not, a car that clings on to anything north of 52 percent of its original value can be considered an above-average performer.
And that’s where you’ll find the vast majority of the pure electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids currently on sale in Australia. In terms of their ability to hang onto their value, they actually don’t do so badly.

...... The Nissan Leaf (https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/nissan-leaf-quick-review) is the next lowest on the retained value totem, but its 51 percent score isn’t quite as dire as the Outlander PHEV’s.

..... Things get interesting from here. The Hyundai Kona Electric (https://www.whichcar.com.au/reviews/hyundai-kona-ev-2019-review) is hugely expensive for a small SUV, retailing just shy of $60K, yet it hangs on to 55 percent of its original price at the 36-month mark. That’s still a significant amount of money to wave goodbye to, but consider this: a Toyota Kluger GXL AWD (http://www.whcichar.com.au/toyota/kluger/) - which is almost identically priced - retains 56 percent of its value, yet that depreciation hit doesn’t deter the thousands of Australians who’ve made the Kluger one of Australia’s most popular new cars.
So if an electric car depreciates at the same rate as a large SUV from one of Australia’s most trusted brands – and one that traditionally performs better than most when it comes to retained value – saying that depreciation is a big downside of EV ownership is flawed. Depreciation is the big downside of buying any new car, and EVs are no exception. Generally speaking, they perform no better or worse than other similarly-priced cars as far as value retention is concerned.

(Emphasis added)

How bad is electric car depreciation? (https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-advice/ev-depreciation)

[Homestar]

Geez, not sure why people can't be happy for others who have bought an EV. If you don't see the value, can't afford it, don't like Electric Jesus, whatever - that's fine and feel free to discuss that, but I don't think it's cool ragging on someone because they have gone and bought one. Personally I am was interested in the real word experience from people who have them - Teslas or other EV's so how about we ease up a bit on this please?

[PhilipA]

Geez, not sure why people can't be happy for others who have bought an EV. If you don't see the value,

I was just responding to the poster who states glowingly about how little it costs to drive from A to B. Yes it does but that is not the whole story or even a large part of the story.

$50000 spent today is a lot different to say $40000 ( on fuel) spent over a 20 year period.

I could also perhaps mention which I forgot about that all those posts and wires built by government with tax money is the benefit that an EV driver is enjoying free of charge today, while the network of fuel stations was paid for by the "BIG' oil companies by charging more for petrol .

I am afraid that I have this thing about governments taking tax money from those who can ill afford it to subsidise the wealthy. Our government has so far resisted it better than governments like the USA and UK.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

I was just responding to the poster who states glowingly about how little it costs to drive from A to B. Yes it does but that is not the whole story or even a large part of the story.

$50000 spent today is a lot different to say $40000 ( on fuel) spent over a 20 year period.

I could also perhaps mention which I forgot about that all those posts and wires built by government with tax money is the benefit that an EV driver is enjoying free of charge today, while the network of fuel stations was paid for by the "BIG' oil companies by charging more for petrol .

I am afraid that I have this thing about governments taking tax money from those who can ill afford it to subsidise the wealthy. Our government has so far resisted it better than governments like the USA and UK.
Regards PhilipA

But how do you know where the initial money came from - maybe they won some money or were gifted it in a Will, etc and wanted to buy something now instead of spend it on bits and pieces as they go - it would make a big difference to some having a larger upfront cost and lower ongoing running costs. No issues with the other parts of the discussion, I just think that this sort of thing puts people off posting about their experiences and their vehicles - we are after all a car forum and we're all here for our love of them - at least a certain brand. I just see it as counter productive is all.

[Eevo]

Geez, not sure why people can't be happy for others who have bought an EV. If you don't see the value, can't afford it, don't like Electric Jesus, whatever - that's fine and feel free to discuss that, but I don't think it's cool ragging on someone because they have gone and bought one. Personally I am was interested in the real word experience from people who have them - Teslas or other EV's so how about we ease up a bit on this please?


because people are pushing EV onto others who "don't see the value, can't afford it, don't like Electric Jesus"

[ramblingboy42]

the free ride for ev's wont be around much longer.

the govt is already aware they are making no excise out of ev's and are currently looking at legislation to bring operating costs of ev's . vis electricity charging costs to equal fuel costs.

enjoy it while you can and dont cry when your currently cheap to operate ev suddenly costs the same as an ice vehicle

there is no free lunch

then we can draw comparisons.

btw.....it isn't really any cleaner.....the energy used is created elsewhere.....choose your evil

[Homestar]

because people are pushing EV onto others who "don't see the value, can't afford it, don't like Electric Jesus"

Bollocks - I wasn’t talking about that at all and neither was ND talking about their new car. Was some insight from an actual owner not him trying to force anyone’s opinion. Don’t like em, don’t buy em - pretty simple, but don’t put people down on that forum because of a choice they make. That was the point of my post.

[Eevo]

but don’t put people down on that forum because of a choice they make. That was the point of my post.

have you read this thread?

[Homestar]

have you read this thread?

Um, yes - I started it...

Have you read the posts I'm discussing in this particular instance? [bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

Um, yes - I started it...


so its your fault!

[NavyDiver]

Bollocks - I wasn’t talking about that at all and neither was ND talking about their new car. Was some insight from an actual owner not him trying to force anyone’s opinion. Don’t like em, don’t buy em - pretty simple, but don’t put people down on that forum because of a choice they make. That was the point of my post.

Money met my mouth today. After the cost comparison of the wife's Model 3 musky thing v Disco Port Fairy return, I decided to move my beautiful D3 to a tow tug/Camping4wd only drive.[happycry]

A cheapish MG ev into the garage by the end of the week. 40K is not cheap yet is relatively speaking and met my tight pockets measure.

I assume the 13/14 year olds might take it off me in a few years where I think a lot of real Disco replacement or refit options will be ready for me.

A ex demo so oddly it is the same not chosen Melbourne BLACK BLACK BLACK. I did once own a Lada ute so have a track record of crazy cars perhaps[biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

I did not sadly buy a EV this sexy [biggrin]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSJ3O3_lMh8

[Homestar]

Probably would have been better if there was someone in the drivers seat... - Tesla driverless car crashes into tree and bursts into flames in Texas, killing two - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-19/two-dead-tesla-driverless-crash-houston-exas/100078068)

[Ferret]

And 32,000 gallons of water used to extinguish the resultant fire.

170388

[Homestar]

3 things make me wonder about this crash.

1st - is that the self driving tech still has some way to go and it seems Tesla are using its own customers as Beta testers.

2nd - is why did the occupants think it was ok not to have someone in the drivers seat when the tech is clearly sold as ‘driver assistance’ - maybe a candidate for a Darwin award?

3rd - with all the tech on board these vehicles they don’t have an occupant sensor on the drivers seat allowing this in the first place? That is also monumentally dumb.

[goingbush]

And 32,000 gallons of water used to extinguish the resultant fire.

170388

Bull**** , if you believe that you'd believe anything. Theres hardly any foliage around burned and if 121.000 Litres of water was sprayed on that it would be swampland right now.

[Eevo]

Bull**** , if you believe that you'd believe anything. Theres hardly any foliage around burned and if 121.000 Litres of water was sprayed on that it would be swampland right now.

121,000 is extreme. there was an internal CFS memo to firefighers about electric cars and to expect to use 30,000l. see if i can find it

[NavyDiver]

Bull**** , if you believe that you'd believe anything. Theres hardly any foliage around burned and if 121.000 Litres of water was sprayed on that it would be swampland right now.

The reported 4 hours to put the fire outs is still WOW if true. "“It took four hours to put out a fire that normally would have taken a matter of minutes,” Constable Herman said, adding that it took more than 30,000 gallons of water to extinguish the fire"

Another news suggested "The batteries on board the Tesla continued to ignite despite efforts to douse the flames, authorities said. It reportedly took around four hours and more than 30,000 gallons of water before firefighters decided to let the fire burn itself out."

That last bit is interesting not for the water used. That they suggest they could not put it out with out it reigniting which is a issue with electrical fires until the circuit is broken. With hundreds of battery cells it just might be that once the control/BMS is toasted/broken I wonder if the hot batteries in Ip55 rated enclosures just are unable to be isolated causing the ongoing re-ignition? Hot spots in Bush fires do a similar issue some times weeks later.

Fully agree with the Darwin award nomination unfortunately! Tesla know when/where you sit. The car not automatically stopping if the Darwin candidate jumped out of the drivers seat is a oversight on Tesla's programing I think/wonder? I thought the Autonomous driving ceased if your hands were removed from the steering wheel? Odd plus. Assume the fine print would put the blame back on the now dead driver regardless.

Happy to hold the steering wheel myself

[Ferret]

Bull**** , if you believe that you'd believe anything. Theres hardly any foliage around burned and if 121.000 Litres of water was sprayed on that it would be swampland right now.

Shrug - That's what is quoted in the news reports. Even Tesla's own internal documentation mentions needing ~3000 gallons of water on hand applied directly to the battery to fight a fire and up to 24 hours to cool it - First responders information. (https://www.tesla.com/en_AU/firstresponders)

[JDNSW]

Murder/suicide? The report says it was going at high speed. I wonder if they can recover data as to whether autopilot was in fact engaged.

[windsock]

Bull**** , if you believe that you'd believe anything. Theres hardly any foliage around burned and if 121.000 Litres of water was sprayed on that it would be swampland right now.

Yep, and it appears the back tyre is still intact. Odd. Most car fire remains I have seen have had just rims (if steel) or melted alloy rims and wire from the steel belted tyres remaining in the wheel arches.

[JDNSW]

With no fuel to flow away while burning, the fire probably remained largely concentrated in the battery area after the plastics burnt.

[Old Farang]

With no fuel to flow away while burning, the fire probably remained largely concentrated in the battery area after the plastics burnt.
Yes, that is one reason, but it is an involved process with many variables involved to extinguish a fire in a Lithium Iron battery.

The following article is a bit long, just scroll over the basics:


Fire Safety of LithiumIon Batteries in Road Vehicles (diva-portal.org) (https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1317419/FULLTEXT02)

Fire Safety of Lithium-Ion Batteries in Road Vehicles

[Old Farang]

Here is another link that is a bit more general:

How Do You Put Out a Lithium Ion Battery Fire? (airseacontainers.com) (https://www.airseacontainers.com/blog/how-to-put-out-lithium-battery-fire/)


How Do You Put Out a Lithium Ion Battery Fire?Posted on December 10, 2020 at 10:00 am

[Old Farang]

Tesla facing search warrants as US authorities probe fatal crash in Texas involving driverless carTesla facing search warrants as US authorities probe fatal crash in Texas involving driverless car - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-20/tesla-search-warrants-fatal-crash-driverless-car-texas/100080804)

[Old Farang]

Australians want to buy electric cars, but car makers say government policy blocks supply
Australians want to buy electric cars, but car makers say government policy blocks supply - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-04-20/australians-want-to-buy-electric-cars-what-is-stopping-us/100071550)

Surveys show Australians want to buy electric vehicles (EVs), but they continue to languish at less than 1 per cent of new car sales. What's going on?

The answer is complex and takes us down a twisting path of carbon targets, "super credits" and other matters that people outside the auto industry generally don't pay much attention to.

[Homestar]

Price point is the main reason for many - we were discussing this at a neighbours place on Saturday night. About 5 or the 6 couples there said they’d have an EV as a second car in a flash if they weren’t so damn expensive and most middle income households (which make up the majority of our population) aren’t willing to spend those sort of dollars on a vehicle. Some secondary stuff too like the new tax the Vic government have levied on them to try and further make things harder, but the price was the primary reason. Until they are MUCH cheaper, the uptake will be low.

I’m hoping by the time I retire in 20 years or so they’ll be affordable by then (or replaced with other tech). Would make sense to have a good solar and battery setup and an EV for the weekly trip to the shops, etc but I can’t see me getting one before then.

[PhilipA]

The whole article could have been stated in one sentence.

"yes Australians would like to try them but they are too expensive."

I was astounded at the gall of the VW CEO who openly admitted that VW would not export to Australia as the EU penalties are so large that they have to try and sell every one in Europe. What did he want our government to do, put on bigger penalties than Europe to encourage them?

BTW I was talking debating with an acquaintance yesterday who has just bought a Model 3 Long Range at over $80K . I said to him That I didn't want to hear how cheap it was to run as everyone else was subsidizing him.
Anyway he told me that auto pilot on a Model 3 disengages if no hands on the steering wheel and will not reset for 24 hours. I don't know if true but if it is then the USA accident could not have happened as stated by the police although a Model Y may be different.

Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

The whole article could have been stated in one sentence.

"yes Australians would like to try them but they are too expensive."

I was astounded at the gall of the VW CEO who openly admitted that VW would not export to Australia as the EU penalties are so large that they have to try and sell every one in Europe. What did he want our government to do, put on bigger penalties than Europe to encourage them?

BTW I was talking debating with an acquaintance yesterday who has just bought a Model 3 Long Range at over $80K . I said to him That I didn't want to hear how cheap it was to run as everyone else was subsidizing him.
Anyway he told me that auto pilot on a Model 3 disengages if no hands on the steering wheel and will not reset for 24 hours. I don't know if true but if it is then the USA accident could not have happened as stated by the police although a Model Y may be different.

Regards PhilipA

$80K for a car - that isn’t as good as a $35K car as far as spec goes - that’s a lot of fuel.

Having ridden in a Model 3 I thought the build quality was aweful compared to the likes of a modern Kia or Hyundai for example, much less a Euro car.

Sons Cerato GT and his partners Golf run rings around a Model 3 as far as comfort and spec goes but added together you still have around $8K change. They do 7LP100KM overall so that’s around 400,000KM you’d need to travel in the Model 3 to save money - ain’t going to happen.

There are many reasons to buy an EV, but to save money isn’t one of them.

If you want one and happy to pay, then great and I’m happy for them, and the savings on fuel after purchase are great, but you couldn’t buy one for that reason by running the numbers.

[NavyDiver]

While CCP might be on the nose the Shanghai car show has lots of goodies BBC Version (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-56818957)

BYD I know from their batteries which have been at the Battery Test Centre for years now. That they are the biggest Electric bus builder was a bit of a surprise

The battery powered drone for you is well worth the look [biggrin]

Jaguar electric! A XJ no less Jaguar'''s 50-year old XJ model to be electric-powered - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-48886743)

"The Jaguar XJ is to become an electric-powered car - after 50 years running on petrol or diesel. Jaguar Land Rover is facing flagging sales and says going electric is vital to its recovery strategy."

Listening to a big Venture Capital company in the Hydrogen space today was insightful. My ledger on FOLLOW the money is growing nicely.

Have to add the prices of EVs including the mega priced version is heading south faster than I would have predicted less than a year ago. Not suggesting price parity for many of them yet.

Edit 3 this is amazing data I think Electric Vehicle Sales Charts, Graphs, & Stats | CleanTechnica (https://cleantechnica.com/ev-sales-charts-graphs-stats/)
The little EV I am about to pick up is not on any of the scales in that like showing world sales and deliveries. The MG ev yet is a hot seller in Australia which sort of shows how tiny and irrelevant we are to the work market at the moment. Recall thinking of going to Germany to buy a BMW bike. The cost here was such a premium it would have worked out cheaper. That just might be true with the premium pricing here for many things I think. [bigwhistle]

[PhilipA]

This is an interesting article that I just read on WUWT.
Seems the average USA citizen is not buying EVs either.

"EV’s not family workhorses, but short range second cars2 hours ago (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/04/22/evs-not-family-workhorses-but-short-range-second-cars/)
Charles Rotter (https://wattsupwiththat.com/author/jeeztheadmin/)
22 Comments (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/04/22/evs-not-family-workhorses-but-short-range-second-cars/#comments)

Range Anxiety: California study may be a downer for EV excitement as it shows that EV’s are driven half as much as internal combustion engine vehicles.
By Ronald Stein (http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/author/ronald-stein/)
Ambassador for Energy & Infrastructure, Irvine, California
With half of the EV’s in the entire country being located in California, the recent 2021 California study may be a downer for the EV excitement as it shows that EV’s are driven half as much as internal combustion engine vehicles (https://www.realclearenergy.org/2021/02/10/study_reveals_ev_secret_theyre_driven_less_659608. html?utm_source=rcp-today&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mailchimp-newsletter&mc_cid=2a57637d30&mc_eid=3efd0e9c7d). The study illustrates that EV’s are generally second vehicles and not the primary workhorse vehicle for those few elites that can afford them.
To date, zero and low emission vehicles are generally from the hybrid and electric car owners which are a scholarly bunch (https://www.carmax.com/articles/hybrid-electric-2017-survey-results); over 70 percent of EV owners have a four-year college or post-graduate degree. This likely explains why the average household income of EV purchasers is upwards of $200,000 (https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2019/02/12/ev_subsidies_funnel_taxpayer_money_to_the_rich_110 392.html).
If you are not in that higher educated echelon and the high-income range of society, and a homeowner or resident of a NEW apartment that has charging access there may not be an appetite for an EV. EV’s have yet to attain the status of being the family’s primary vehicle workhorse (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35498794/ev-owners-low-mileage-study/) with their limited usage.

Another challenge for the EV growth is the EV charging dependence on intermittent electricity from wind and solar. Adding EV charging loads onto the grid that is becoming more unstable is like putting salt in the wound. Power outages are now commonplace in California and Texas with more to follow throughout the nation as we adjust to a life dependent upon the time of day and the weather.
The highly educated, and well compensated EV owners that take advantage of State and Federal subsidies are sparingly using their “green” vehicles. With them setting the pace, how will the middle-income and those on fixed incomes be able to buy into the EV evolution?
The California EV market is looking for the less fortunate to belly up and join the EV train. That may prove to be a financial challenge with 45 percent of the California population – that’s a whopping 18 of the 40 million residents of the state – being Hispanic and African American (https://www.ppic.org/publication/californias-population/) – having average incomes of less than half of present EV owners. Additionally, California has the highest homeless population which is the fifth largest percentage of homeless (https://www.security.org/resources/homeless-statistics/) (behind D.C., New York, and Hawaii, and Oregon), and has the second highest poverty rate.
The unintended consequences Governor Newsom’s recent Executive order to ban the sale of gas-powered vehicles by 2035 (https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/09/23/governor-newsom-announces-california-will-phase-out-gasoline-powered-cars-drastically-reduce-demand-for-fossil-fuel-in-californias-fight-against-climate-change/#:~:text=SACRAMENTO%20%E2%80%93%20Governor%20Gavin %20Newsom%20today,passenger%20vehicles%20to%20be%2 0zero%2D) may be an incentive for those least likely being able to afford a new car, or a second car, to continuously re-register their existing internal combustion vehicles.
Governor Newsom may have forgotten that whatever type of vehicles uses the roads, there are huge funding requirements for both California’s transportation infrastructure, and for the numerous environmental compliance programs that have come from the gas pumps. The state and federal subsidies help lower the price of EV’s, but EV owners do not pay any gas taxes for California’s almost 400,000 miles of roadways (https://blog.cubitplanning.com/2010/02/road-miles-by-state/) that are heavily dependent on road taxes from fuels that contribute more than $7 billion annually (https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/transportation/article242235946.html#:~:text=In%202017%2D18%2C%20 state%20gasoline%20tax%20revenue%20was%20%246.4%20 billion.&text=In%20California%2C%20motor%20fuel%20taxes,mul ti%2Dmodal%20congestion%20relief%20corridors.), the same tax base that will be diminishing in the decades ahead.

EV buyers hope to save from the cost of fuels as the all-in posted price of fuel at the pump includes non-transparent costs added to the actual fuel costs, such as: federal tax, excise tax, state tax, local sales tax, cap and trade program compliance costs, low-carbon fuel standard program compliance costs, and renewable fuels standard program compliance costs.
California’s Newsom may also have forgotten that his own Democrats overwhelmingly defeated Senator John Moorlach’s sponsored SB 1074 in 2018 “Disclosure of government-imposed costs” at the pump. The Supermajority Democrats in the legislature remain content with non-transparency of the numerous costs that are “dumped” onto the posted price of fuel, as they are content with keeping the public blissfully ignorant of the many taxes and regulatory costs that drive up prices, to the point that Californians continue to pay almost $1.00 more per gallon of fuel (https://www.gasbuddy.com/Charts) than the rest of the country. An Exxon gas station recently expressed their “transparency opinion” at the pump (https://ifunny.co/picture/you-assholes-voted-democrat-glLGcyUQ8).
EV buyers beware that the “tax equalizer”, the “VMT” is coming. The Vehicle Mileage Tax (https://poweringcalifornia.com/analysis-vehicle-miles-traveled-vmt-tax/#:~:text=The%20California%20Vehicle%20Miles%20Trav eled,buying%20and%20driving%20electric%20vehicles. ) (VMT) that has been discussed for years sounds like a logical idea – requiring the users of the highways to pay the fees to maintain those highways. The VMT tax will be needed to replace the $7 billion annually (https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/transportation/article242235946.html#:~:text=In%202017%2D18%2C%20 state%20gasoline%20tax%20revenue%20was%20%246.4%20 billion.&text=In%20California%2C%20motor%20fuel%20taxes,mul ti%2Dmodal%20congestion%20relief%20corridors.) from fuel sales that will be diminishing in the decades ahead.

The challenge for a VMT will be how to implement that great idea which may require annual odometer readings! Lookout for Governor Newsom’s next Executive Order for a VMT requiring annual odometer readings so that each person pays their fair share to maintain the roads they are using to replace the diminishing fuel taxes!
In the United States there were17 million vehicles of all types sold in 2019. EV sales were a dismal 2 percent of the total, i.e., about 350 thousand. California new car sales were more than 10 percent of the nation as California vehicle sales have exceeded 2 million for three straight years (https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/sd-fi-car-sales-20180222-story.html).
In a recent Los Angeles Times (https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-01-17/ev-sales-fizzle?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosgenerate&stream=top) article, citing Edmunds data, The number of battery-electric models available more than doubled from 2018 to 2019, but EV sales budged in the wrong direction. In response to the major efforts by manufacturers, the horrific EV sales data (https://evadoption.com/ev-market-share/ev-market-share-california/) shows that only 325,000 electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles were sold in the U.S. in 2019, down from 349,000 in 2018. As mentioned previously, half of all EV’s in America are in one state – California. The rest of the country seems to be less enthralled with EV’s. Are EV carmakers driving off a cliff?”

If the California trend of EV’s being low mileage driven second vehicles, and not being the family workhorse vehicles for the higher income owners, when and how will the lower income earners join the EV excitement?
Ronald Stein, P.E.​ Ambassador for Energy & Infrastructure"

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Range anxiety and load capacity is a issue. Chatting with a very helpful sparky installing a charge point for me Thursday. His work ute loaded has more than load/space needs than any available option. Oddly the range would not be an issue for him. Affordable and fit for purpose was the sticking point for more than a few. Suspect the options changing rapidly in the US is a very likely cyatlyst to see both those issues resolved.

Our occasional or frequent 4wd requirement is mixed in of course. That said most Landrovers do not seem to ever get dirty around here [bigwhistle]Have to dig my MT tires out for some fun soon.

[ramblingboy42]

I read somewhere in last couple of days , that our government was taking 24c in the dollar on imported electric vehicles.

Not a lot of incentive there to buy an electric vehicle.

[Homestar]

Can't link the video due to the swearing but go to youtube and check out thejuicemedia and their latest video - Honest Government Ads - Electric Vehicles.

[101RRS]

G rating permits swearing including the F word as long as it is in context.

[rick130]

G rating permits swearing including the F word as long as it is in context.Unfortunately we're operating under Google advertising rules, not Australian censorship rules.
And as Inc has said, he wants the site to be able to be viewed by his grandkids, most of us don't say **** in front of kids.

[JDNSW]

Unfortunately we're operating under Google advertising rules, not Australian censorship rules.
And as Inc has said, he wants the site to be able to be viewed by his grandkids, most of us don't say **** in front of kids.

Unfortunately, my grandkids don't say it (in front of me), or at least try not to, since I don't say it in front of them. But when they don't think I am listening, three out of the four of them have a vocabulary that would make a bullocky blush. The one that does not swear is the oldest, but I don't think it is a matter of age, just personality.

[Homestar]

G rating permits swearing including the F word as long as it is in context.

As Rick said - The Adsense G rating doesn’t which is what we need to abide by here. Swear words beginning with s that we consider very tame isn’t allowed and could see a strike against the forum - the bots don’t care about context.

[NavyDiver]

Love the video- Almost sad to see mostly true.

On a brighter note a Billion quid is almost 1,783,925,000.00 I had to post it to get my numbers in order[biggrin]

That is Bosch's plan for Fuel Cells


Bosch’s CEO believes the market for green hydrogen in the EU will be worth €40bn ($48bn) by 2030 with annual growth rates of 65%.Dr. Volkmar Denner made the comment at Bosch’s annual press conference where he also made a staggering estimate that the market for mobile fuel cell components in particular could be worth around €18bn ($21bn) by the end of this decade.Denner said “Bosch is already hydrogen-ready” and reaffirmed the company’s commitment to invest €1bn ($1.2bn) into fuel cell technology – an emerging part of the EU hydrogen market – from 2021 to 2024.With the investment, Bosch will look to put 100 stationary fuel cell plants into operation this year supplying electricity to users such as data centres, industrial manufacturers and residential areas.
Denner believes that Bosch is prepared and ready to spearhead this growing market, “We have what it takes to be a leader in this market as well.”Expanding on this, Denner referenced the recent joint venture with China’s Qingling Motor Group which will see both companies produce fuel cell power trains with a test fleet of 70 trucks set to be on the roads before the end of 2021.

Bosch to invest €1bn into fuel cell technology (https://www.h2-view.com/story/bosch-to-invest-e1bn-into-fuel-cell-technology/)

[NavyDiver]

My little toy turned up and was plugged in when the sun was shining before[bigrolf]

The key in my pocket is cool. The cruise control is as well. Driving past my parked Disco is [bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]


Kids love the sun roof things and I am yet to fiddle yet they have phone control over everything it seemed.

Noted BYD is advertising a even cheaper sub 35K EV arrival bookings from July delivery late Dec21/Jan 22 possibly. Oddly a few people seem to notice.

It is SHHHHH in a nice way.

[Don 130]

The battery disposal/recycling issue.

Electric cars: What will happen to all the dead batteries? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779)

Don.

[NavyDiver]

The battery disposal/recycling issue.

Electric cars: What will happen to all the dead batteries? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779)

Don.


Unlike the little ones money to be made will see people lining up to access older EV batteries I think. "any different materials are recovered. As a first step we focus on cathode metals like cobalt, nickel, lithium and manganese," says Thomas Tiedje, head of planning for recycling at Volkswagen Group Components. "Dismantled parts of the battery systems such as aluminium and copper are given into established recycling streams.""

is from your link. I have an investment or two in miners, suppliers and manufactures in the battery and materials/resources sector all of which are expanding supplies and demand for all the bits which can be recovered. It will need to be Automated to avoid the mess we have created exporting all our wast to Africa and china in the past. [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Chinese companies are taking on Tesla.

https://twitter.com/Quicktake/status/1389890371707195392's=19

[JDNSW]

Interesting article on the Rivian Rivian’s electric truck features include air compressor and AC outlets | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/05/rivian-shares-some-cargo-specs-for-the-r1t-electric-pickup-truck/)

One feature that to me shows that the designers have no idea of the real world:- to get at the spare you need to completely unload everything in the tray!

[RANDLOVER]

$80K for a car - that isn’t as good as a $35K car as far as spec goes - that’s a lot of fuel.

Having ridden in a Model 3 I thought the build quality was aweful compared to the likes of a modern Kia or Hyundai for example, much less a Euro car.

....................

I agree the 3 is the model they don't want to sell you, I think the screen looks terrible, like it is just sicking out the dashboard, that is just to get you in the door, then they try to upsell you.

[RANDLOVER]

Interesting article on the Rivian Rivian’s electric truck features include air compressor and AC outlets | Ars Technica (https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/05/rivian-shares-some-cargo-specs-for-the-r1t-electric-pickup-truck/)

One feature that to me shows that the designers have no idea of the real world:- to get at the spare you need to completely unload everything in the tray!

I thought the D3/4 and I believe the D5 is the same, was bad design with the wheel winder accessed through the back floor! One of our contractors said his new Ford Ranger came with a 250V outlet, not sure if it was std or an option though. I could live with the Rivian's range as I often do a few hundred km's drive on weekends, so that's what I'd like to see more of, big cars carrying big batteries, not the little city runabouts, and I agree with John Cadogan they need to make the city cars even cheaper, as they are mostly 2nd cars, for school runs, shopping, etc.

[Homestar]

I agree the 3 is the model they don't want to sell you, I think the screen looks terrible, like it is just sicking out the dashboard, that is just to get you in the door, then they try to upsell you.

It makes me want to run away screaming so it isn’t likely to get me anywhere near the door for them to try. Marketing fail if that’s their tactic.

[DiscoMick]

Plummeting battery costs are changing the cost dynamics of EVs.

Electric cars ‘will be cheaper to produce than fossil fuel vehicles by 2027’ | Automotive industry | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-produce-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2027?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Eevo]

Plummeting battery costs are changing the cost dynamics of EVs.

Electric cars ‘will be cheaper to produce than fossil fuel vehicles by 2027’ | Automotive industry | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/09/electric-cars-will-be-cheaper-to-produce-than-fossil-fuel-vehicles-by-2027?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)


ha!
i was just thinking this morning that EV prices have not decreased over the last 5 years and wont match ICE prices for at least 20 years.

[NavyDiver]

Was going to BAG my little quirky EV today for making a 8 hour drive take close to 24 hours or a bit more.[biggrin].

Quick chat with the people who sold it to me discovered a software update was missed. Problem may be fixed. Range is supposed to be 260ish. I was pushing to get 150[bawl][bawl][bawl]

Learnt a lot happily and did make Mothers day in Port Fairy. Oddly My Disco battery was the reason I took the EV[biggrin] Taking the Disco battery for a Test as soon as I get it started[bighmmm]


One thing I know know is EV CCS charging rocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System). 30 minutes to 100% compared to several hours on a 7Kwh 240 volt charger.

Bright note is I could not pay for power if I tried. Everyone I used was free except one which was about the cost of a beer at a motel/hotel.[thumbsupbig] I did not buy my my quirky car for a long distance beast or a tow tug. MG service did ask why I did not call the Free Breakdown service? I didn't break down just low on juice which was fixable slowly except at the CCS charger[biggrin] .

[Homestar]

Thought this was quite interesting and well thought out. Also shows how far behind Australia is and how bad America is at solving the issue described.


https://youtu.be/pLcqJ2DclEg

[Homestar]

John Cadogans recent video on rural EV use and charging is also worth a watch - for the doubters, he owns a Kona EV and overall really likes it.

[sashadidi]

Was going to BAG my little quirky EV today for making a 8 hour drive take close to 24 hours or a bit more.[biggrin].

Quick chat with the people who sold it to me discovered a software update was missed. Problem may be fixed. Range is supposed to be 260ish. I was pushing to get 150[bawl][bawl][bawl]

Learnt a lot happily and did make Mothers day in Port Fairy. Oddly My Disco battery was the reason I took the EV[biggrin] Taking the Disco battery for a Test as soon as I get it started[bighmmm]


One thing I know know is EV CCS charging rocks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System). 30 minutes to 100% compared to several hours on a 7Kwh 240 volt charger.

Bright note is I could not pay for power if I tried. Everyone I used was free except one which was about the cost of a beer at a motel/hotel.[thumbsupbig] I did not buy my my quirky car for a long distance beast or a tow tug. MG service did ask why I did not call the Free Breakdown service? I didn't break down just low on juice which was fixable slowly except at the CCS charger[biggrin] .
how are you finding the MG, I got offered a cheap one here In NZ but now BYD got me thinking ,not too worried about the bling, just the value of the car.
might be able to use old nissan battery in the house

[NavyDiver]

how are you finding the MG, I got offered a cheap one here In NZ but now BYD got me thinking ,not too worried about the bling, just the value of the car.
might be able to use old nissan battery in the house

A few bits are clearly not as sharp as a BMW, Landrover or Toyota. Over all it is very good and easy to drive. I must remember front wheel drive with huge torque can create wheel slip on corners in particular[thumbsupbig] Take one for a test drive. I did try a Jag Ipace and a Hyundai Kona. In several ways they might be better yet I am very happy with my choice assuming the software update fixs the range to the promised one[biggrin]
I will even admit to allowing it to keep up with a v8 from the lights up to the speed limit. He was a bit shocked at my silent treatment[bigrolf]

[sashadidi]

Thanks confirms feedback from EV forum here, yes even my company leaf in non eco mode gave a falcon turbo a race from the lights... couple of hard patched up gang boys who even stopped next to me at next lighs said they were amazed by the speed ,of course conce we hit 70kph they started fo get the upper hand and it chewed the battery a bit.....

[NavyDiver]

Pretty sure the main game in EV will be the solid state batteries with 1/3 size weight, 2 times the energy and possibly significantly faster recharging times.

Like the truck thread my assumption is that swapping batteries in even a little older EV car/truck will be a game changer. I never wanted to but know we can change the Engines in our Landrovers[bigwhistle]Batteries should be a lot simpler to change.

Quatumscape VW , BMW/Ford via Solid Power (https://solidpowerbattery.com/), Toyota, Panasonic and Hyundai/Kia Korean and I never forget to consider about BYD and Chinese in Solid state. It may be a first to the post winner takes all or possibly a few patented technology changes allowing a number of these or others to deliver the next generation. The issues which several bright forum members point out are valid and reasonable concerns with current tech.

Time frame Quatumscape 2023. Toyota 2021??? They had scheduled the release of the tech at the 2020 Olympics! BMW?ford date is 2030.

Watch and wait alas [biggrin] Who gets it working and who brings it to market is a ?????


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv5x3K3yZoE

[Homestar]

How are the car manufacturers going to agree on a battery spec for a swappable battery pack when they can’t even agree on a plug type? [emoji16]

The EU managed to get a standard for charging but the US is a basket case regarding this, so no idea how they’ll manage to do this.

There was an EV battery swap station and prototype setup made years ago in Germany but it didn’t work at the time due to non compatibility issues with all the vehicles being built - a problems that’s got a lot worse since.

[JDNSW]

And not going to get any better if the predicted advances in batteries keep happening.

[NavyDiver]

How are the car manufacturers going to agree on a battery spec for a swappable battery pack when they can’t even agree on a plug type? [emoji16]

The EU managed to get a standard for charging but the US is a basket case regarding this, so no idea how they’ll manage to do this.

There was an EV battery swap station and prototype setup made years ago in Germany but it didn’t work at the time due to non compatibility issues with all the vehicles being built - a problems that’s got a lot worse since.

Agree- that's like talking Type 1 Type 2, CCS, CSMOS and ... chargers are a lot like the USB cables we all have 4 + types of and always the wrong one?

One the flipside cost is likely to be below ICE by 2026 according to
Bloomberg New Energy
(https://thedriven.io/2021/05/11/new-bnef-analysis-finds-that-evs-will-be-cheaper-than-ice-cars-by-2027/)
Kick myself for buying a quirky one 4 years to early?

On swapping batteries- My little Lada ute was offered a small block V8 update by a mate in Perth[wink11] I didn't yet know a lot of people who have fitted engines and kit from other engines to their pride and joys[thumbsupbig] I felt low range was fine with me and the Lada[biggrin]

On the NOW cost of:

Maintenance it is not possible for a ICE vehicle to cost less than a BEV even on today's prices.
Fuel/ Charging. The most it is possible to pay for BEV charging is 40c per Kwh. my 42KwH is $16.80 a tesla cybertruck may have $40 for its 100Kwh battery pack. Noting I have not paid a cent at eight plus charging sites now.


The cyber trucks range 400, 480 or 800 at the top end is roughly what my D3 gets from 90litre fuel load is about $130. Cost are of interest as is the range and availability of fuel/charging of course :)

[rick130]

The pace of development.

Mahle'''s cheap, highly efficient new EV motor uses no magnets (https://newatlas.com/automotive/mahle-magnet-free-electric-traction-motor/)

[Homestar]

Agree- that's like talking Type 1 Type 2, CCS, CSMOS and ... chargers are a lot like the USB cables we all have 4 + types of and always the wrong one?

One the flipside cost is likely to be below ICE by 2026 according to
Bloomberg New Energy
(https://thedriven.io/2021/05/11/new-bnef-analysis-finds-that-evs-will-be-cheaper-than-ice-cars-by-2027/)
Kick myself for buying a quirky one 4 years to early?

On swapping batteries- My little Lada ute was offered a small block V8 update by a mate in Perth[wink11] I didn't yet know a lot of people who have fitted engines and kit from other engines to their pride and joys[thumbsupbig] I felt low range was fine with me and the Lada[biggrin]

On the NOW cost of:

Maintenance it is not possible for a ICE vehicle to cost less than a BEV even on today's prices.
Fuel/ Charging. The most it is possible to pay for BEV charging is 40c per Kwh. my 42KwH is $16.80 a tesla cybertruck may have $40 for its 100Kwh battery pack. Noting I have not paid a cent at eight plus charging sites now.


The cyber trucks range 400, 480 or 800 at the top end is roughly what my D3 gets from 90litre fuel load is about $130. Cost are of interest as is the range and availability of fuel/charging of course :)

I think I’m like a lot of others - not prepared (or can’t afford) to pay an early adopters tax, but once the actually are cheaper for an equivalent vehicle then I would probably get one although I’m still not sure any would be able to keep up with where I have to go at times for work, but I live in hope.

My money is almost certainly going on a new Subaru Outback shortly - will be a 3 year turn around so will see what offerings there are when that time comes.

Will need to be able to do a genuine 600KM on a charge - ideally 750KM (even in cold and hot weather loaded up pretty well) to cover one of the regular runs I do and I’ll have to hassle the Hotel I stay at at the end of that run to put at least a power point in the carpark as there’s no power for 100 metres where the car gets parked. Will need to be a wagon or similar to fit everything in too.

So much needs to go right to make it work for me and I’m sure I’m not alone, but I live in hope.

[NavyDiver]

The pace of development.

Mahle'''s cheap, highly efficient new EV motor uses no magnets (https://newatlas.com/automotive/mahle-magnet-free-electric-traction-motor/)
Thats very cool thank you "efficiencies above 95 percent right through the range of operating speeds"

Now if I can have one for my boat please [biggrin]

[Old Farang]

The pace of development.

Mahle'''s cheap, highly efficient new EV motor uses no magnets (https://newatlas.com/automotive/mahle-magnet-free-electric-traction-motor/)

That is no doubt a good development. But the breakthrough is the wireless transmission of the rotor current.

Brushless alternators use a similar type of induction for excitation of the rotor. There are also no wearing parts in such a machine, the control being done on the exciter field coils and a rotating rectifier.

MAHLE develops highly efficient magnet-free electric motor - MAHLE Group (https://www.mahle.com/en/news-and-press/press-releases/mahle-develops-highly-efficient-magnet-free-electric-motor--82368)

[DiscoMick]

I think I’m like a lot of others - not prepared (or can’t afford) to pay an early adopters tax, but once the actually are cheaper for an equivalent vehicle then I would probably get one although I’m still not sure any would be able to keep up with where I have to go at times for work, but I live in hope.

My money is almost certainly going on a new Subaru Outback shortly - will be a 3 year turn around so will see what offerings there are when that time comes.

Will need to be able to do a genuine 600KM on a charge - ideally 750KM (even in cold and hot weather loaded up pretty well) to cover one of the regular runs I do and I’ll have to hassle the Hotel I stay at at the end of that run to put at least a power point in the carpark as there’s no power for 100 metres where the car gets parked. Will need to be a wagon or similar to fit everything in too.

So much needs to go right to make it work for me and I’m sure I’m not alone, but I live in hope.I notice the current NRMA magazine has a comparison of the Subaru Outback with some competitors. Says the Outback has many good points but the engine was thirstier and slower than its rivals. Maybe the comparison is available online at the NRMA website?

[Homestar]

I notice the current NRMA magazine has a comparison of the Subaru Outback with some competitors. Says the Outback has many good points but the engine was thirstier and slower than its rivals. Maybe the comparison is available online at the NRMA website?

Have done a lot of research on this and yes, the only downside of the Outback is it's lack of engine options - you get the 2.5 NA and that's it. It does still cream my Hilux on acceleration so I can live with it's lack of power compared to others - I think I'd describe it as 'adequate' - and it certainly won't set any records but is very smooth and quiet. If you were after sporty then it certainly wouldn't tick that box. I'm after long distance comfort so works for me. :)

Still to sign any papers on one as I've been sick, but I think I'm close - wait time to late September though for the colour and trim options I want - of course there are some for immediate delivery with the interior and colours I DON'T want and It's amazing how hard they'll push you to try and take one of those. I did say to one dealer I'd take one of his floor stock for a 20% discount - he didn't smile like I was. If I'm laying down for a new car, I want it to be exactly what I want, not what they want. :)

[ramblingboy42]

f I'm laying down for a new car, I want it to be exactly what I want, not what they want.

exactly , when I walk into a dealership , I know what I want already.

[ramblingboy42]

Subaru are building very good cars.

We are on our third XV, we had a Golf poke its nose in for a couple of years and it is NOT as good as the XVs.

Looking forward to seeing what Subaru will offer in EVs

[Eevo]

Subaru are building very good cars.

We are on our third XV, we had a Golf poke its nose in for a couple of years and it is NOT as good as the XVs.

Looking forward to seeing what Subaru will offer in EVs


interesting. i concider the XV to be the barebones of a Subaru quality and not worthy of the subaru badge.

[DiscoMick]

Have done a lot of research on this and yes, the only downside of the Outback is it's lack of engine options - you get the 2.5 NA and that's it. It does still cream my Hilux on acceleration so I can live with it's lack of power compared to others - I think I'd describe it as 'adequate' - and it certainly won't set any records but is very smooth and quiet. If you were after sporty then it certainly wouldn't tick that box. I'm after long distance comfort so works for me. :)

Still to sign any papers on one as I've been sick, but I think I'm close - wait time to late September though for the colour and trim options I want - of course there are some for immediate delivery with the interior and colours I DON'T want and It's amazing how hard they'll push you to try and take one of those. I did say to one dealer I'd take one of his floor stock for a 20% discount - he didn't smile like I was. If I'm laying down for a new car, I want it to be exactly what I want, not what they want. :)I've read owners praising Subaru dealers for being very helpful and supportive.

[Homestar]

I've read owners praising Subaru dealers for being very helpful and supportive.

I’ve owned 3 Subies in my time - none of them ever went wrong enough to require a dealer. Mum and Dads 97 Liberty finally stopped when it did a head gasket at 435,000km (only a couple of years ago - they were the only owners from new - was the demo model Dad test drove) - only ever had routine maintenance done on it and apart from regular timing belts had never had a single component off the engine. [emoji4][emoji106]

[Don 130]

I'd be in the queue for almost anything EV if we could get pricing like this;

The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning electric pickup looks like brawny, battery-powered bargain - Roadshow (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-reveal-specs-pricing/?ftag=CAD-04-10aac3a&bhid=25051678190272141260800696281423&mid=13374268&cid=534149357)

Don.

[Tombie]

f I'm laying down for a new car, I want it to be exactly what I want, not what they want.

exactly , when I walk into a dealership , I know what I want already.

I do a must have vs nice to have vs cost.

[Tombie]

Subaru are building very good cars.

We are on our third XV, we had a Golf poke its nose in for a couple of years and it is NOT as good as the XVs.

Looking forward to seeing what Subaru will offer in EVs

We looked at them. Ok vehicle. No boot space at all though if using back seats.

[cripesamighty]

Wow. That F-150 EV is a lot cheaper than a Rivian.

[Tombie]

Wow. That F-150 EV is a lot cheaper than a Rivian.

Only the POV model. $50k AU

The long range one cracks $100k

[cripesamighty]

Bugger, missed that bit!

[Arapiles]

Have done a lot of research on this and yes, the only downside of the Outback is it's lack of engine options - you get the 2.5 NA and that's it.

I didn't realise that they'd dropped the diesel and the 3.6. There are 3.6 demonstrators around ...

[NavyDiver]

I didn't realise that they'd dropped the diesel and the 3.6. There are 3.6 demonstrators around ...

Heard of stranded assets? No stress if you do from me. Listening to a gent discussing, Oil, gas, nuclear all on a site which is now wind/solar and.. His rather well financed views seem a long way from ICE and chatting about trains, tucks, buses, ships..... which are having a mid life crisis as the 10-20 year cycle is stuffed. Not sure when yet anyone assuming ICE is happy in five + years seems a gamble plus to me.

Envisioning the hydrogen revolution - Marco Alvera of Snam - Everything About Hydrogen | Podcast on Spotify (https://open.spotify.com/episode/5rxcSLHW2MGnH6UoCFAd4v)

I chased the man down a little Ted chat was worth listening to. Marco Alvera: The surprising ingredient that makes businesses work better | TED Talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/marco_alvera_the_surprising_ingredient_that_makes_ businesses_work_better) "What is it about unfairness? Whether it's not being invited to a friend's wedding or getting penalized for bad luck or an honest mistake, unfairness often makes us so upset that we can't think straight. And it's not just a personal issue -- it's also bad for business, says Marco Alverà. He explains how his company works to create a culture of fairness -- and how tapping into our innate sense of what's right and wrong makes for happier employees and better results."

I will admit to having a glass or two of wine after 16+ hour days so sorry if off topic - This last week is over[biggrin] One of my staff is back now[thumbsupbig] My last person standing role is back to 1/3 of this week

[Homestar]

I didn't realise that they'd dropped the diesel and the 3.6. There are 3.6 demonstrators around ...

Only in the previous model, not the new one. It’s the biggest drawback I see with them at the moment. Hopefully additional options will be forthcoming in coming years.

[PhilipA]

The diesel had such a bad reputation and cost them heaps in warranty claims, mainly DPF AFAIK.
They had a habit of bursting the intercooler to manifold hose or it popping off and this caused over richness which destroyed the DPF if it continued to be driven even 100 kms home which is what happened to my son’s car.
AFAIK they deleted it about 1 to2 years ago and all that was left was existing stock.
Of course usually the owner deletes the DPF but still costs a couple of grand.
regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

Heard of stranded assets? No stress if you do from me.

Yep, I've heard of them and I believe that I may have mentioned them on here at some point in explaining why no banks would fund Adani.

[3toes]

Electric work at the moment if you have a short commute to work and drive local in your own time

Demand here is driven by government allowing write off of the asset in first 12 months and reduced car tax for the fleet driver. Any change in this has an immediate reaction in purchasing patterns. Government has made it clear these incentives are temporary and will not be there long term

Hybrids push up the fuel bill of fleets so there is a constant battle between the drivers who want the tax advantage and the fleet managers who in some cases have seen their fuel bills risk by 30% due to hybrids. Problem is battery pack is heavy and they fit a smaller engine for when the battery is not in use. Battery has a range of 30 miles for a driver who does many more in a standard work day. Have seen plenty of plug in hybrids reach auction where the cables have never been taken out of the packaging

They fall down if you do longer runs due to the time required to recharge them. There is always a new tech just about to arrive that is going to solve this one. If temperature is above or below their standard the range goes down. While the battery continues to work the range decreases over time as you use it and it ages. If you use anything electrical the range decreases - heating air con radio lights etc

Even if you find your own rare earth to make the magnets for the Electric engine the only factories that can convert the raw material into magnets are in China

From a commercial use it works if you are a florist not if you are a plumber as load reduces range, if you have a fleet need enough room for the fleet to park up over night off road to recharge with chargers for each vehicle

The market for second hand has not yet developed so used values are an unknown. Have seen auction prices of one big brand fluctuating by £10k in a week for similar cars. One of the manufacturers is buying up used and exporting/ scrapping second hand in an attempt to match demand with supply and so support used prices

[PhilipA]

Yep, I've heard of them and I believe that I may have mentioned them on here at some point in explaining why no banks would fund Adani.
This re Stranded assets

So what happens to existing solar panel farms if one of the "magical" new technologies actually comes to something and costs are reduced dramatically.

Will not all of the old fashioned solar farms become stranded assets , as the borrowings will still have to be paid ?

Ditto with old wind farms. I can recall driving from Las Vegas in the 1980s over a renowned pass towards the coast which was littered with hundreds of small inefficient wind generators which were obviously not operating as the company had gone broke.

Regards PhilipA

[JDNSW]

Wind and solar farms are vastly cheaper to build than coal or gas fired power plants! Although that was not the case in the 1980s. Or even twenty years ago. And there is no indication that the decrease in cost has stopped.

Further, the advantage of these is that it is financially viable to make these on a much smaller scale than a coal fired power plant - and increase size later.

[DiscoMick]

Plus wind and solar plants are much cheaper to operate because there is no need to mine, transport and burn coal or gas.

[Tombie]

Plus wind and solar plants are much cheaper to operate because there is no need to mine, transport and burn coal or gas.

Yes there is… to build them in the first place [emoji41]

Replacement lifetime is quite short for the blades too.

Our local skyline now looks appalling, huge fans everywhere just pollute the land as far as the eye can see.

We’re killing off one problem and introducing 5 others.

[Old Farang]

Yes there is… to build them in the first place [emoji41]

Replacement lifetime is quite short for the blades too.

Our local skyline now looks appalling, huge fans everywhere just pollute the land as far as the eye can see.

We’re killing off one problem and introducing 5 others.
Absolutely! The mongrel things should ALL be installed offshore out of sight!


Wind turbine blades can’t be recycled, so they’re piling up in landfillsWind turbine blades are piling up in landfills - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com) (https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-02-06/wind-turbine-blades)

A wind turbine’s blades can be longer than a Boeing 747 wing, so at the end of their lifespan they can’t just be hauled away.

First, you need to saw through the lissome fiberglass using a diamond-encrusted industrial saw to create three pieces small enough to be strapped to a tractor-trailer.

Turbine blades can last up to 20 years, but many are taken down after just 10 so they can be replaced with bigger and more powerful designs. Tens of thousands of aging blades are coming down from steel towers around the world and most have nowhere to go but landfills. In the U.S. alone, about 8,000 will be removed in each of the next four years. Europe, which has been dealing with the problem longer, has about 3,800 coming down annually through at least 2022, according to BloombergNEF

[3toes]

Wind turbine technology has come on massively in the last 10 years. Older towers are being pulled down and replaced with newer more efficient versions. This is the normal March of technology and is no different to many other technologies over the years. There is an early adopter cost which this reflects until the technology matures.

Just as there is no one source of power for current electricity generation there will in the future be a mix of sources of electricity generation in the future. It is not wind against solar or wave etc as sone would like you to think.

Rolls Royce is starting to market a nuclear power plant that is the size of a wheelie bin. It is powerful enough to run a small city. Build and installation is quick as it is built in a factory and just installed on site

Those windmills you saw in the USA were installed as the government offered significant subsidies to install them. They were installed for the subsidy and were never effective at producing electricity. Idea was Chuck enough cash at it and the technology will move forward quicker. Those after a quick buck were the winners society lost out

[NavyDiver]

This re Stranded assets

So what happens to existing solar panel farms if one of the "magical" new technologies actually comes to something and costs are reduced dramatically.

Will not all of the old fashioned solar farms become stranded assets , as the borrowings will still have to be paid ?

Ditto with old wind farms. I can recall driving from Las Vegas in the 1980s over a renowned pass towards the coast which was littered with hundreds of small inefficient wind generators which were obviously not operating as the company had gone broke.

Regards PhilipA
A exec at my mum and dads 60th suggested a load of good deals are coming our way to get rid of stuff other countries are about to refuse.

No question improved technology makes the life span of older tech possibly a bit shorter. The warships we have last 20ish years at the most in general. Weapons systems last a lot less.
No question cost reductions are occurring in Solar, Wind has moved from Professor James Blyth 1887 ( not a typo really 1887) Follow up in 1888 was 12-kW turbine featured 144 blades made of cedar[biggrin] Link to some history (https://www.powermag.com/changing-winds-the-evolving-wind-turbine/)

Math on wind turbines is pretty simple: Bigger is better. Old ones such as the Proffessor Blyth 1887 type also costed a lot more in real terms. A guy I was chatting with digging underground power as FIFO all over the world a few weeks ago mentions cable sizes he is laying is getting bigger every year and YEP he is returning to install bigger cabling at earlier sites.

I took my Disco to the 60th. A quick 700ish km round trip. I had to chuckle as in put the replacement batter in before I could leave[biggrin]

Henry Ford industry disruption? "In October 1908, he offered the Model T for $950. In the Model T's nineteen years of production, its price dipped as low as $280. Nearly 15,500,000 were sold in the United States alone."

Not the only change Mr Ford made "Ford was responsible for cutting the workday from nine hours to eight hours so that the factory could convert to a three-shift workday and operate 24 hours a day."

Fully appreciate some people drive a lot more than average. he average American uses their car only 4% percent of the time. The rest of the time it is parked somewhere. It is disingenuous to suggest 50% plus of drivers could not enjoy the silent speed of a non pollution spewing car.
The other EV at my place did the miles with ease yesterday and today. My cheapie MG ev is not a long range option and I needed the 7 seats in my Disco. [thumbsupbig]

[Arapiles]

This re Stranded assets

So what happens to existing solar panel farms if one of the "magical" new technologies actually comes to something and costs are reduced dramatically.

Will not all of the old fashioned solar farms become stranded assets , as the borrowings will still have to be paid ?

Ditto with old wind farms. I can recall driving from Las Vegas in the 1980s over a renowned pass towards the coast which was littered with hundreds of small inefficient wind generators which were obviously not operating as the company had gone broke.

Regards PhilipA


Older wind and solar installations are not really stranded assets per se, because the point about a coal-fired power plant being built now is that long before it's repayment term has finished it won't be able to produce electricity at a competitive rate and will therefore have no way of repaying its debt. In contrast, an older solar farm or wind farm would cost nothing to run - hence, efficiency isn't really an issue - and its output is always saleable so the issue doesn't arise.

[Arapiles]

Rolls Royce is starting to market a nuclear power plant that is the size of a wheelie bin. It is powerful enough to run a small city. Build and installation is quick as it is built in a factory and just installed on site


You must have have big wheelie bins in your area:

Small modular reactors – Rolls-Royce (https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/small-modular-reactors.aspx#/)


• Be so compact (16 metres high and 4 metres in diameter) itcan be transported by truck, train or even barge.• Sit within a power station that would be roughly fiveand half times the size of the pitch at Wembley, which isjust one-tenth the size of a typical large-scale reactor site(40,000m2 vs 400,000m2).

[JDNSW]

.....
Wind turbine blades can’t be recycled, so they’re piling up in landfills
...


But a very minor issue compared to the ash produced by a coal fired plant!

[Arapiles]

The diesel had such a bad reputation and cost them heaps in warranty claims, mainly DPF AFAIK.
They had a habit of bursting the intercooler to manifold hose or it popping off and this caused over richness which destroyed the DPF if it continued to be driven even 100 kms home which is what happened to my son’s car.
AFAIK they deleted it about 1 to2 years ago and all that was left was existing stock.
Of course usually the owner deletes the DPF but still costs a couple of grand.
regards PhilipA

I was intrigued by this - because I've been thinking of getting an Outback diesel - and I can't find anything on the web about the diesels being unreliable, other than the usual whinging about DPFs having to be cycled.

The diesels are the volume seller in the UK and there was nothing from there about reliability problems in relation to the Outback or the Forester.

[Eevo]

But a very minor issue compared to the ash produced by a coal fired plant!
ash is good for the soil

[Tombie]

But a very minor issue compared to the ash produced by a coal fired plant!

Goes great in Stopes.

[RANDLOVER]

Electric work at the moment if you have a short commute to work and drive local in your own time

Demand here is driven by government allowing write off of the asset in first 12 months and reduced car tax for the fleet driver. Any change in this has an immediate reaction in purchasing patterns. Government has made it clear these incentives are temporary and will not be there long term

Hybrids push up the fuel bill of fleets so there is a constant battle between the drivers who want the tax advantage and the fleet managers who in some cases have seen their fuel bills risk by 30% due to hybrids. Problem is battery pack is heavy and they fit a smaller engine for when the battery is not in use. Battery has a range of 30 miles for a driver who does many more in a standard work day. Have seen plenty of plug in hybrids reach auction where the cables have never been taken out of the packaging

They fall down if you do longer runs due to the time required to recharge them. There is always a new tech just about to arrive that is going to solve this one. If temperature is above or below their standard the range goes down. While the battery continues to work the range decreases over time as you use it and it ages. If you use anything electrical the range decreases - heating air con radio lights etc................

Jaguar actually have a range calculator that takes into account ambient air temp, a/c, heating, etc...Jaguar I-PACE | EV Charging Stations & Range | Jaguar (https://www.jaguar.com.au/jaguar-range/i-pace/owning-an-ev/index.html)

[vnx205]

Wind turbine blades can’t be recycled, so they’re piling up in landfills



That statement may already be out of date.
Wind giant Vestas says it can now fully recycle turbine blades - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2021/05/17/wind-giant-vestas-says-it-can-now-fully-recycle-turbine-blades/)

Danish wind turbine giant Vestas has announced today that it, along with a coalition of industry and academic leaders, has figured out how to fully recycle wind turbine blades.

[Tombie]

That statement may already be out of date.
Wind giant Vestas says it can now fully recycle turbine blades - Electrek (https://electrek.co/2021/05/17/wind-giant-vestas-says-it-can-now-fully-recycle-turbine-blades/)

Academic only at this stage.

[Arapiles]

ash is good for the soil


But maybe not good for the people eating things grown in that soil:


Is Coal Ash in Soil a Good Idea? - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-in-soil/)


And then there's this:


Coal Ash Is More Radioactive Than Nuclear Waste - Scientific American (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/coal-ash-is-more-radioactive-than-nuclear-waste/)

[DiscoMick]

Ford's EV F-150 could have an interesting impact.
Turn off the gas: is America ready to embrace electric vehicles? | Automotive industry | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/23/america-ford-electric-vehicles-lightning?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[DiscoMick]

Car dealers preparing for a new electric future.

Cheaper electric vehicles could increase uptake in Australia ‘sooner than expected’ | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/24/cheaper-electric-vehicles-could-drive-uptake-in-australia-sooner-than-expected?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Homestar]

Car dealers preparing for a new electric future.

Cheaper electric vehicles could increase uptake in Australia ‘sooner than expected’ | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/may/24/cheaper-electric-vehicles-could-drive-uptake-in-australia-sooner-than-expected?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

It doesn’t say anywhere what the new tech is that will make them so much cheaper - it’s like saying ‘If you step on a nail it could hurt’.

[Tombie]

I’d say it’s rather the opposite at this stage.

Australia won’t be ready when the crunch comes.

[Eevo]

It doesn’t say anywhere what the new tech is that will make them so much cheaper - it’s like saying ‘If you step on a nail it could hurt’.

"cheaper petrol vehicles could increase uptake" would be accurate too. most consumer goods being cheaper leads to increased uptake...

[NavyDiver]

"cheaper petrol vehicles could increase uptake" would be accurate too. most consumer goods being cheaper leads to increased uptake...

Happy to bet cheap petrol will be dumped on the Australian market over the next few years as the big markets. US, China, EU all phase them out. We are a tiny goldfish bowl in that market place.

I had planned to get my Disco out for a run with Mario for a Fish this weekend. Bloody Covid may shut that idea down in the next twenty minutes[tonguewink].

I may become a dumper if I cannot refit my Disco. I need it capability- Still hoping a refit to a long range water-oxygen only emitting will be possible. My watch list in the space has Toyota for its Mirai engine which is popping up in race cars, boats trains and trucks. Korea is tossing several about in Trucks, buses and more. Plug power, Ballard, Toyota, Cummings, Bloom Energy, ITM power and others. Waiting of course for supply and proof is a sensible idea.

time to see the mess for fishing, work and kids here in Vic. Only sad one I already know is I still get to work when everyone else might be locked up [bawl]

[Tombie]

Would you trust an electric boat engine [emoji41]

[DiscoMick]

I notice Land Rover is building a battery plant in England and says there will be EV versions of all its vehicles by late this decade, in addition to the existing hybrid package.
We will continue to get outdated versions of vehicles here until we adopt Euro6 fuel standards. Or we will simply not be sent the latest vehicles at all.
Happy to bet cheap petrol will be dumped on the Australian market over the next few years as the big markets. US, China, EU all phase them out. We are a tiny goldfish bowl in that market place.

I had planned to get my Disco out for a run with Mario for a Fish this weekend. Bloody Covid may shut that idea down in the next twenty minutes[tonguewink].

I may become a dumper if I cannot refit my Disco. I need it capability- Still hoping a refit to a long range water-oxygen only emitting will be possible. My watch list in the space has Toyota for its Mirai engine which is popping up in race cars, boats trains and trucks. Korea is tossing several about in Trucks, buses and more. Plug power, Ballard, Toyota, Cummings, Bloom Energy, ITM power and others. Waiting of course for supply and proof is a sensible idea.

time to see the mess for fishing, work and kids here in Vic. Only sad one I already know is I still get to work when everyone else might be locked up [bawl]

[Tombie]

I notice Land Rover is building a battery plant in England and says there will be EV versions of all its vehicles by late this decade, in addition to the existing hybrid package.
We will continue to get outdated versions of vehicles here until we adopt Euro6 fuel standards. Or we will simply not be sent the latest vehicles at all.

Yep. We already miss out on a heap of new vehicles

[NavyDiver]

this might be interesting EV or not. Not a stock recommendation!

"

Hyzon Motors has developed an eAxle with up to 97% motor-to-wheel efficiency, reducing loss by up to 40%
The new eAxle achieves world-class performance through innovations in the gear system, differential and motor integration
The company’s next generation aerodynamic class 8 trucks outfitted with these eAxles target 950kW peak power and a 19.7 mpge at full load over the CARB HHDDT drive cycle

eliminates right-angle hypoid gears
"

I had to google hypoid The negatives include

Complex design.
Lower efficiency level than planetary [B]gearbox.
Not suitable for fast speeds.



Like the sound of this from a company I am following- D.Y.O.R. and not financial or medical advice Link if interested in hypoid bits (https://hyzonmotors.com/hyzon-motors-break-through-eaxle-technology-to-enable-high-efficiency-hydrogen-and-battery-trucks/) [thumbsupbig]

Of interest to Paten fights??? I found Smesh "Did you know that in practise at least 70% of the energy is lost in the powertrain of a diesel truck, before it even reaches the wheels? (https://smesh-e-axle.com/en/)"

Have to check with the truck drivers about the efficiency claims. No power train from engine to axles would get rid of a lot of weight and power losses.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUC6PU6q8Cs

This one might be even better as BOSCH is a big component supplier we all know of - Down scale this and E-disco is a go[bigrolf]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0LK04PP_uQ

[NavyDiver]

Would you trust an electric boat engine [emoji41]

F.F.G.s used them for decades(Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate), All submarines have used them for a lot longer. Even Nuclear ones tend to have an electric generator and motor. Ships now are often Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) or full electric propulsion (FEP) is the current ( no pun intended [biggrin]) crop.

More than happy with the electronics in my little boat. Batteries can be secured better than a sloppy 150 litres of fuel. A bonus would be a BBQ on boat would not scare me in a electric boat not sitting on top of all the fuel. My thermos and sandwiches could get an upgrade. The Buffer would kill anyone who lit a gas BBQ or smoke within 10+ metres of the ships fuel caddies or paint store if they failed in that task themselves [biggrin]

I have to wait alas. No suitable long range power power supply yet in my price range. Fairly sure that will change quickly later this year with at least the battery level via Quatumscape (US), Toyota, Panasonic (Japan) and I think BDY (china) is likely to be hot on Solid state small and high capacity batteries. I know marinising almost anything is possible. Its the rusty bits that bite of course.

[Eevo]

will you need a current license do drive an EV? [bigwhistle]

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/J2npVg9ONFo

[Tombie]

F.F.G.s used them for decades(Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate), All submarines have used them for a lot longer. Even Nuclear ones tend to have an electric generator and motor. Ships now are often Integrated electric propulsion (IEP) or full electric propulsion (FEP) is the current ( no pun intended [biggrin]) crop.

More than happy with the electronics in my little boat. Batteries can be secured better than a sloppy 150 litres of fuel. A bonus would be a BBQ on boat would not scare me in a electric boat not sitting on top of all the fuel. My thermos and sandwiches could get an upgrade. The Buffer would kill anyone who lit a gas BBQ or smoke within 10+ metres of the ships fuel caddies or paint store if they failed in that task themselves [biggrin]

I have to wait alas. No suitable long range power power supply yet in my price range. Fairly sure that will change quickly later this year with at least the battery level via Quatumscape (US), Toyota, Panasonic (Japan) and I think BDY (china) is likely to be hot on Solid state small and high capacity batteries. I know marinising almost anything is possible. Its the rusty bits that bite of course.

I’m not talking diesel/nuclear electric set ups.
I’m talking would you trust a small commercial motor and batteries on your boat , offshore [emoji6]

[Homestar]

I’m not talking diesel/nuclear electric set ups.
I’m talking would you trust a small commercial motor and batteries on your boat , offshore [emoji6]

Not sure if I’d want to run an extension lead out to it should it go flat... [emoji56]

[vnx205]

I’m not talking diesel/nuclear electric set ups.
I’m talking would you trust a small commercial motor and batteries on your boat , offshore [emoji6]

These have pretty good reputation.

Deep Blue - Outboards with 25 to 50 kW - Torqeedo (https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/deep-blue)

[Tombie]

These have pretty good reputation.

Deep Blue - Outboards with 25 to 50 kW - Torqeedo (https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/deep-blue)

Ouch!!!

So now I need 330kg of motors and another 700kg of battery…..

[NavyDiver]

I’m not talking diesel/nuclear electric set ups.
I’m talking would you trust a small commercial motor and batteries on your boat , offshore [emoji6]
Just reconfigured 400 Kwh of flow batteries at work - it was two parallel Victron Multiplus 2 that needed an update. I trust them with vaccines that stop kids getting hundreds of preventable things if my fridges stay as required. Simply Yes after testing water tight integrity- I will trust once it is proven. I keep testing to try and fault my systems at least monthly at work. My boat could kill me and people I care a lot about so is in the same maintained routine which I can fault in several spots

A short version. My little boat build buy a cool shyster I really like. It stopped 20km of shore once with water in the petrol. Fixed it via a water separator filter but it was a long way to swim and took well over an hour. The issue was a air line breather for the fuel system which was just fine 95% just not great in sloppy short rough stuff where water got in. My back fuel water filter up saved my bacon then and at other times.

Fuel via jerries' refuelling in ****e rough water was Yikes plus- long range tank was great until rubbing just that little bit put a pin ***** hole in one of my two tanks. I am so over the ICE engine not from the lovely 115 HP Yamaha excluding the fumes. My primary issue is the C02 and pollution I know my two stoke puts in places I love. A very long way from places most sane people go. Suspect I will be very picky about the electrical bits I add to replace the ICE set up.

[vnx205]

Ouch!!!

So now I need 330kg of motors and another 700kg of battery…..
:)
Would you prefer this one?
It weighs just 8.8 kg including the battery. :)
Kayak motor - Electric outboard motors for canoes - Torqeedo (https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/ultralight)

https://www.torqeedo.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-TQShared/default/dw48f309e9/categories/ultralight/ultralight-403-ac-map-torqeedo-580x510.jpg

[Tombie]

:)
Would you prefer this one?
It weighs just 8.8 kg including the battery. :)
Kayak motor - Electric outboard motors for canoes - Torqeedo (https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/outboards/ultralight)

https://www.torqeedo.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-TQShared/default/dw48f309e9/categories/ultralight/ultralight-403-ac-map-torqeedo-580x510.jpg

Not to try and move 2.5t of Cat at 40knots [emoji41]

[350RRC]

A short version. My little boat build buy a cool shyster I really like.

CS? [biggrin]

DL

[DiscoDB]

Not to try and move 2.5t of Cat at 40knots [emoji41]

Cat would be perfect for twin electric motors - the battery pack can be the ballast, the sails the back-up, and plenty of surface area to mount solar panels to recharge (slowly) when at sea.

Electric motors would also be more reliable than ICE given there are so few moving parts.

Now if I won lotto then these look good:

Luxury Electric Catamarans | SILENT-YACHTS | SILENT 55 (https://www.silent-yachts.com/silent55/)

[goingbush]

Bloke in NZ bought in two Nissan Leafs from Japan, one is going into his Defender , the other replacing the engine in his outboard on his 7.5m PowerCat

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/80663183_10156335346131735_1650229982489739264_n.j pg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=RCct39Wl-FQAX-0VY3N&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=d89ae138b9dff82086915dc8d5c88d21&oe=60D8F7A6

[Arapiles]

Cat would be perfect for twin electric motors - the battery pack can be the ballast, the sails the back-up, and plenty of surface area to mount solar panels to recharge (slowly) when at sea.

Electric motors would also be more reliable than ICE given there are so few moving parts.

Now if I won lotto then these look good:

Luxury Electric Catamarans | SILENT-YACHTS | SILENT 55 (https://www.silent-yachts.com/silent55/)


I suspect that he means a power cat, probably like the old Sharkcats. No sails.

[Arapiles]

Just reconfigured 400 Kwh of flow batteries at work - it was two parallel Victron Multiplus 2 that needed an update. I trust them with vaccines that stop kids getting hundreds of preventable things if my fridges stay as required.
.

You have liquid batteries - like Redflow?

[DiscoDB]

I suspect that he means a power cat, probably like the old Sharkcats. No sails.

Knowing Tombie it will be CAT diesel power.....[emoji106]

[DiscoMick]

If you want a laugh, search 'Coal miners driving Teslas'. There's some fruity language to be avoided if you wish, which I suppose is to be expected from miners from Clermont in Qld, but they seem impressed with the 'rocketship'.

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

[Tombie]

Knowing Tombie it will be CAT diesel power.....[emoji106]

Currently twin 115 Yammies.
Screaming 2 stroke V4s.

Rebuild coming of entire boat and repower to 4 strokes in new year.

[ozscott]

The 115 2 stroke Yammy is just one of those jem models. I had an early one for many years then a Salt Water Series version for many years.

Each manufacturer has one or 2 jems. Tohatsu has one in the 40 and 50hp straight 3 cyl 2 stroke. The motor that is often used in Gemini racing. Great motors. The 115 Yammy 4 stroke is a great motor.

Cheers

[NavyDiver]

The 115 2 stroke Yammy is just one of those jem models. I had an early one for many years then a Salt Water Series version for many years.

Each manufacturer has one or 2 jems. Tohatsu has one in the 40 and 50hp straight 3 cyl 2 stroke. The motor that is often used in Gemini racing. Great motors. The 115 Yammy 4 stroke is a great motor.

Cheers
The saltwater s 115 is on the back of mine. For sale and in very very good nick if you want it[thumbsupbig]

The batteries for my business U.P.S, are Redflow Arapiles. I was possibly the first in Victoria to put them in other than a test one at a Solar place which installed for me. I understand the Bushfire funding a huge amount of them in Mobile phone towers to help fix the comms issues no power causes especially when we need them during fires and similar. Not holding the company now. Like them just not in my investment strategy. I will look at the ZBM3 when I get my 10 years out of my current 2.

On another topic since I have 2 already above[biggrin]

Did you all see Cummins news? They brought 'Hydrogenics Corporation' in 2019. "Cummins Partners to Build One of the World’s Largest Green Hydrogen Production Plants" Possibly the worlds biggest at Castilla-La Mancha, Spain.

Not tiny with $$$$$ "€50-million PEM electrolyzer plant that will house system assembly and testing for approximately 500 MW/year and will be scalable to more than 1 GW/year. The facility, which will initially be 22,000 square meters, is anticipated to open in 2023, creating 350 new jobs as production ramps up."
For scale consider in 2019 Australia produced 62,917 gigawatt-hours of renewable energy which is about 27.7% of Australia's electricity production.

So the worlds new biggest is really barely a start? Oddly Spain is known for the worlds first SUN tax. A bit like Victorian EV, FCEV and Hybrid fuel car tax. " Spain added "sun tax" on solar installations making them economically less viable" in 2015. I bet some coal loving pollies here love that idea. [bigwhistle]

To be really confusing- UPDATE on my quirky MG EV. Back at the dealer as battery not providing the promised range. I think I know the issue via some helpful UK forum. Apparently the batteries cells get a little unbalanced and need a balancing charge or battery regenerative charge- not to be confused with regenerative braking which the deal seemed to be very confused with when I mentioned it was slowly fixing the problem for me. The car when fully charged was showing 440 volts. After charging then leaving it plugged in the regenerative or balancing charge drew a 1amp only and after days the fully charge was showing more than 440 volts. The rapid range /charge drop I had seen in my drive to Port Fairy a few weeks ago suggests to me the BMS in the car is a little less refined. The user manual is quirky as well. The UK forum is a lot like ours. Link in case you would like a browse

What is the true range of zsev | MG EV Community (https://www.mgevs.com/threads/what-is-the-true-range-of-zsev.2252/)

[NavyDiver]

CS? [biggrin]

DL Sam- Revival boats. Not sure if he is alive. I hope so, a true old school man. He sold the brand to JB marine I think.

[Arapiles]

The batteries for my business U.P.S, are Redflow Arapiles. I was possibly the first in Victoria to put them in other than a test one at a Solar place which installed for me. I understand the Bushfire funding a huge amount of them in Mobile phone towers to help fix the comms issues no power causes especially when we need them during fires and similar. Not holding the company now. Like them just not in my investment strategy. I will look at the ZBM3 when I get my 10 years out of my current 2.



Suspected that might be the case.

[NavyDiver]

A heap of hydrogen forklifts being used by several big Companies. Batteries version have been around for donkey years. One at family business in Morwell Vic in 1970s stopped what happened in Tassal Tassie "Tasmania Fire Service (TFS) said an assessment on-site indicated the most likely cause was carbon monoxide, from the operation of forklifts inside the building."

Beside carbon monoxide poisoning. The reason why the Big wareshouse player went Hydrogen over battery only, is refueling is minutes with hydrogen, were battery charging takes a lot longer. In 24 -7 operations like shipping, long distance truck, trains and even our cars, Battery only may not be great if we are in a hurry.
Oddly posted about sea sickness in another thread- carbon monoxide may have been involved as it only occurred when trolling slowly and only if wind was coming from the stern. I'll cop it as sea sickness as sniggering at a cool captain of a warship with his bucket for a few days when I was 17 allows a little self reflection while barfing at sea myself[bigrolf]

[bob10]

Affordable electric vehicles now in St Baker's investment sights. Last week St Baker merged tritium, a Brisbane company developing fast charge battery technology with an American SPAC [ special purpose acquisition company ] giving it a Nasdaq listing. The $ 20 million investment will accelerate the importation of passenger vehicles into Australia from BYD, in which US investor Warren Buffet has a stake. The St Baker fund also get a seat on the board. BYD EV's are at price parity with combustion engines, The investment in TrueGreen expands St Baker's EV portfolio which includes Tritium, Evie networks - the Australia wide network of ultra fast electric vehicle chargers ,Novonix- a battery materials company servicing many of the EV battery manufacturers , New York based ride hail and EV charging hub operator revel , and pureEV's an E-bike operator in the Philippines. The projected price of the EV's is below $ 35,000.

Affordable electric vehicles now in St Baker's investment sights (inqld.com.au) (https://inqld.com.au/business/2021/05/31/affordable-electric-vehicles-in-st-bakers-investment-sights/)

[Homestar]

Believe it when I see it.

[gromit]

A heap of hydrogen forklifts being used by several big Companies. Batteries version have been around for donkey years. One at family business in Morwell Vic in 1970s stopped what happened in Tassal Tassie "Tasmania Fire Service (TFS) said an assessment on-site indicated the most likely cause was carbon monoxide, from the operation of forklifts inside the building."

Beside carbon monoxide poisoning. The reason why the Big wareshouse player went Hydrogen over battery only, is refueling is minutes with hydrogen, were battery charging takes a lot longer.

I used to sell industrial floor sweepers & floor scrubbers, often through forklift companies.
The bigger electric forklifts had swap out battery packs, big buggers but meant they could work 24/7.
Virtually all the large sweepers we sold for inside use were on LPG or CNG.


Colin

[101RRS]

Green Setback

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51215980942_a774571f6a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m2MhNb)ev (https://flic.kr/p/2m2MhNb)

[vnx205]

It seems that story is not true. It is another example of propaganda from the anti-electric vehicle lobby.

Were These Electric Cars Abandoned Because Their Batteries Failed? | Snopes.com (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/electric-cars-abandoned-france/)

Electric cars in France were not discarded due to faulty technology | Fact Check (https://factcheck.afp.com/electric-cars-france-were-not-discarded-due-faulty-technology)

[NavyDiver]

It seems that story is not true. It is another example of propaganda from the anti-electric vehicle lobby.

Were These Electric Cars Abandoned Because Their Batteries Failed? | Snopes.com (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/electric-cars-abandoned-france/)

Electric cars in France were not discarded due to faulty technology | Fact Check (https://factcheck.afp.com/electric-cars-france-were-not-discarded-due-faulty-technology)

Truth and history are both viewed by the beholder at times[thumbsupbig]

When did you use your first computer, Mobile phone, Internet, tubeless tire, ABS breaking???

Vic 20 computer 1980s - It was a mates not mine. 1999 work phone, ..... Internet for me was pre internet as my work gave me a little link[thumbsupbig]

This story on the BBC is possibly well worth considering on EVs time frame and a very cool S Curve history lesson.

Why electric cars will take over sooner than you think - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57253947)

Not suggesting ICE is dead. Just not sure how long its got left. [bighmmm]

[101RRS]

It seems that story is not true. It is another example of propaganda from the anti-electric vehicle lobby.



All is true in Love and War [bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

All is true in Love and War [bigrolf]

Fully agree. My history update on the History of the Silk road ( New history) alchemy of Air- WW1, WW2 besides HaberBosch and now on a Russian history update via RED NOTICE floored me a few times[biggrin] One fact last night blew me away but not for this thread[bigwhistle]

The S curve technology changes even in my little world were more than interesting to see. While testing how may Covid/FLU vaccines we have done yesterday I tossed how many home phone numbers are still in my database. It was almost 100% less than 10 years ago. it is now sub 35% and suspect a lot of them are extinct. S curve in action goes both ways[bigrolf]

Truth and facts via science even are often further refined[biggrin] Lies and conspiracy theories are very much a part of history as well. Opium into China from India by the East India company was a well known one with long term impacts even a 100 years plus on.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, very true about opium.
I was also interested to read recently that, while the ANZAC and others were being slaughtered at Gallipoli, Churchill had already betrayed them by signing a secret deal to hand Turkey over to the Russians.

[goingbush]

Why are some people so vehemently anti EV that they need to latch onto fake propaganda and spread it.
The mere fact that it says acid and oil is leeching out - you know right there its fake news , if you cant see that your an imbecile.

The charger in my EV Landy failed early March ( yes clearly they are not 100% reliable) so I parked it up and ordered replacement, I finally got a new charger yesterday , yes its hard getting stuff from China, thanks Morrison, 3 month since it was parked up and each of the 45 cells are 3.25 +/- .005V
Plugged in the charger & all cells charged & balance as per normal. The conversion is 4 years old now & the battery performance is getting better as time goes on.

I just have to move stuff about to fit the new bigger charger .

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/187119528_4003099173105176_5567847973984855033_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=ukfu29rebqEAX8LDv4I&_nc_oc=AQnGAyeuSMCKTy_nY3bgg9jkVaik0pE8Q246RzLnYgv J2NgV5J3H8nApzXvZi-KtqgY&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=90bd53084e4fdcd11c387db092bacb32&oe=60DCBC87

[Homestar]

Why are some people so vehemently anti EV that they need to latch onto fake propaganda and spread it.
The mere fact that it says acid and oil is leeching out - you know right there its fake news , if you cant see that your an imbecile.

The charger in my EV Landy failed early March ( yes clearly they are not 100% reliable) so I parked it up and ordered replacement, I finally got a new charger yesterday , yes its hard getting stuff from China, thanks Morrison, 3 month since it was parked up and each of the 45 cells are 3.25 +/- .005V
Plugged in the charger & all cells charged & balance as per normal. The conversion is 4 years old now & the battery performance is getting better as time goes on.

I just have to move stuff about to fit the new bigger charger .

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/187119528_4003099173105176_5567847973984855033_n.j pg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=ukfu29rebqEAX8LDv4I&_nc_oc=AQnGAyeuSMCKTy_nY3bgg9jkVaik0pE8Q246RzLnYgv J2NgV5J3H8nApzXvZi-KtqgY&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=90bd53084e4fdcd11c387db092bacb32&oe=60DCBC87

Not sure but probably the same reasons pro EV fanbois won’t hear a bad word said about them and call out anyone who brings up issues with them as ‘EV Haters’

Goes both ways I think.

[101RRS]

Not sure but probably the same reasons pro EV fanbois won’t hear a bad word said about them and call out anyone who brings up issues with them as ‘EV Haters’

Goes both ways I think.

Yes it seems that if you dont have the same almost religious view as the EV nutters, you are are imbecile - so much for different points of view. [bigrolf]

[Old Farang]

I used to sell industrial floor sweepers & floor scrubbers, often through forklift companies.
The bigger electric forklifts had swap out battery packs, big buggers but meant they could work 24/7.
Virtually all the large sweepers we sold for inside use were on LPG or CNG. Colin

Yes they did. A ship that I worked on as an electrician in 1971 had an electric forklift. I think the battery was 48 volts and we had two of them. Part of my job was to both maintain the thing and keep the batteries charged. I remember having a plywood cover made to lay on top of the spare while it was being charged in the open on deck. The ships cranes were used to swap it out.

[NavyDiver]

Yes it seems that if you dont have the same almost religious view as the EV nutters, you are are imbecile - so much for different points of view. [bigrolf]
Have to add myself the the EV nutter with my quirky one. [thumbsupbig] Rotten thing still at the place I brought it from fixing a new car

Oddly they gave me a MG Xs non ev to drive. That is quirky as well. It may be a bit newer as some of the stuff inside is rather different to mine. none of them is as nice as my Disco. Mr 21 says my Disco is a Big Old very well padded rocking chair [biggrin]

[B]See I can say bad things about the EV I have. [thumbsupbig] I will add another. I just walked past a LD/Jag dealer. They had two charge points. One CCS and the other I assume to be a 7Kwh type. I do not think they are publicly available even to Jag I-pace owners? The Audi chargers near by seem to be the same- never seen them used despite walking past them reasonably often.

Interesting to see Jag I pace information is really not as good as other places to find Free or paid public charge points
Jaguar Electric Car Public Charging | Jaguar (https://www.jaguar.com.au/electric-cars/public-charging.html)
While it suggest signing up to public networks (https://www.jaguar.com.au/electric-cars/public-charging.html)it is a bit slack plus on not pointing to them. Pull up your socks EV types [biggrin]

They are Plug Share (https://www.plugshare.com/) and Charge Fox (https://www.chargefox.com/). Tesla has its own via its apps but most are listed in Plugshare I think

one other site has a bit as well Charging - Electric Vehicle Council (https://electricvehiclecouncil.com.au/about-ev/charger-map/)Dopey me just found another when looking for the Audi ones unsuccessfully Charge Point (https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point)

[DiscoMick]

I thorought Plug Share and Charge fox were available to anyone to use as long as they had an account. Is that wrong?

[Homestar]

I thorought Plug Share and Charge fox were available to anyone to use as long as they had an account. Is that wrong?

Yeah, but there’s heaps of players out there all sticking stuff in willy nilly. Even with a charge fix account you have limited access to what’s out there. The industry needs to put their heads together and sort this out before it becomes a bigger problem than it already is.

[NavyDiver]

I thorought Plug Share and Charge fox were available to anyone to use as long as they had an account. Is that wrong?

If the plug fits and it turns on use it[biggrin] Plug share and other my show sites that are not usable for some/many. One example is two Three Phase power points in Port Fairy installed by the council. A very specific charger is needed to use that as just one example.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y831n5Qragc

If the boot fits back at my car? This video showed only one of 5 EV cars made the range. Mine (still at the dealer) was dammed close to the sub par effort in this. Happy to put the boot into showing claims that are not achieved. Did just that to a test drive of a Jeep a few years ago so I am at least consistent[biggrin]

[Old Farang]

Spudfan's new car:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpbu1o-ZQAk

[Eevo]

required watching.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2zlYpy6QCM&ab_channel=FortNine

[bob10]

The Driven, EV insiders. EV News. EDIT . Not a religion , just the way of the future. There have been Luddites at every major turning point in the history of the World. No surprise there.

The Driven | Electric Vehicle Insiders (https://thedriven.io/)

[bob10]

EV reviews.

Reviews Archives | The Driven (https://thedriven.io/category/reviews/)

[bob10]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. In 1902 James Trackson rolled down Brisbane's Elizabeth St in Brisbane's first car. But Trackson drove headlong into a fractious debate with horse riders, who were adamant that the new fangled contraptions had no place on city roads. The Newcastle Morning herald and miners advocate wrote the new " crude form of mechanically driven carriages" wouldn't impact on the demand for the reliable horse.

Now this is part of an opinion piece on e-scooters in Brisbane, but could easily be about the take up of EV's in Australia. Crude insults will not stop the EV revolution. It is happening, and if we don't get onboard, we will be left behind.

[101RRS]

Another great video from Harry's Garage on Youtube - he has mad s few videos now on the practical use of EV vehicles - the outcome is pretty consistent - and that is there is really nothing wrong with EVs as they stand at the moment - range etc is OK .

The issue he has is the supporting infrastructure - eg charging. Poor at home charging and very expensive to install higher capacity units, most public chargers are only low to medium capacity with only a handful of chargers in the entire UK able to charge to full capacity very quickly. He also raises good points about the ability to find vacant chargers. For sure infrastructure will continue to get better but the ability to get a decent charge into a vehicle quickly will certainly be an issue for a long time.

His comments at the end of the video are very relevant to everyday use of a EV.

For me - a small EV to run around town would be great but would always have to be a second vehicle with an ICE as my primary vehicle for the moment.

Audi RS e-tron GT real-world review plus why fast chargers are essential to the success of EV - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jvFT2a7os)

Garry

[Tombie]

The Driven, EV insiders. EV News. EDIT . Not a religion , just the way of the future. There have been Luddites at every major turning point in the history of the World. No surprise there.

The Driven | Electric Vehicle Insiders (https://thedriven.io/)

Perhaps those Luddites were right?

ICE was a major turning point, Coal fired power generation another.

In time to come, how will they look back on the people digging up Lithium and Graphene and making big batteries?

Or Copper for huge infrastructures to charge said batteries?

Or perhaps the environmental impacts of thousands of huge fans and silicone panels across the landscape?

What has always seemed like “the best idea” at the time has often upon reflection been a bloody disaster.

I suspect this will be no different.

[Tombie]

Crude insults will not stop the EV revolution.

Why are a lot of your posts laced with passive aggressive statements?

And it’s Evolution.

Doubt you or I will see its full implementation though.

[350RRC]

Why are a lot of your posts laced with passive aggressive statements?

And it’s Evolution.

Doubt you or I will see its full implementation though.

It is part of an evolution, or a short term change to address a looming problem that was first identified in the 1970's.

I don't expect to see wind turbines around in another 30 years.

DL

[Eevo]

nd that is there is really nothing wrong with EVs as they stand at the moment - range etc is OK .
i cant use an EV to drive from adelaide to syd in 16hours

[Tombie]

i cant use an EV to drive from adelaide to syd in 16hours

I couldn’t have done the run from Whyalla to Tanunda and return on any of the latest EVs.

Especially towing the trailer and all done in 11 hours.

[scarry]

And harping on,

We did Windorah to Brisbane straight through,1280Km, the other night, loaded with RTT on.

No hope in an EV,but possibly in a vehicle with a fuel cell, if hydrogen was available,24hr, in a few places, somewhere along the way.

[101RRS]

No hope in an EV,but possibly in a vehicle with a fuel cell, if hydrogen was available,24hr, in a few places, somewhere along the way.

But that is the point Harry is making - you could have done that trip if high power recharge infrastructure had been in place.. For sure not there yet but it will come just as fuel filling stations started appear in the early 1900s.

[Tombie]

But that is the point Harry is making - you could have done that trip if high power recharge infrastructure had been in place.. For sure not there yet but it will come just as fuel filling stations started appear in the early 1900s.

Only hurdles to overcome:

I can fuel up with liquid fuel in minutes and get back on the road with a 1000km range.
High power charge still takes 20-50 minutes - if lucky.
High power charges *currently* (pun intended) greatly reduce battery lifespan.

Even if there were power points at the same distances as there are Servos, I still cannot match the convenience of hydrocarbon fuel with current EV.

Who knows what will happen down the line…

[Tombie]

My simple stance - give me 95% of the usability of my current vehicles and I would make the switch.

[Homestar]

My simple stance - give me 95% of the usability of my current vehicles and I would make the switch.

Which 5% you want to miss out on? [emoji16]

[Eevo]

My simple stance - give me 95% of the usability of my current vehicles and I would make the switch.
nail on the head.

[Homestar]

I would buy one tomorrow - if they were the same price and spec level as equivalent ICE vehicle and can do 900KM with one stop (no dramas on it being 30 minutes) but chargers would need to be in remote and regional Vic - Think I’ll be waiting a while yet.

[101RRS]

but chargers would need to be in remote and regional Vic - Think I’ll be waiting a while yet.

There was a news article a while back about a garage in Geelong I think. The owners were going to renovate the garage and they thought it would be a good idea to install a couple of mid level chargers as part of the refurb.

They approached a couple of the charger suppliers expecting that the chargers could be installed at no cost to the garage as it was their own property and the garage would take a % of the money earned - nope the garage had to pay the charging company to have the chargers installed and the % of payments was not viable - so no chargers installed as part of the service station refurb.

I am not a great supporter of EVs but can see we will be forced to make the change but then I would expect Hydrogen to take over from batteries in due course, but we are at where we are but attitudes and policies that do not encourage the development of infrastructure are nonsense.

[Tombie]

Which 5% you want to miss out on? [emoji16]

I’d accept a slightly slower “refuelling” turn around.
But won’t accept limitations on travel due to access to said charging.

The other piece would be remote travel - I’ll stick with my ICE until there’s a charger mid Simpson etc

[ozscott]

Only hurdles to overcome:

I can fuel up with liquid fuel in minutes and get back on the road with a 1000km range.
High power charge still takes 20-50 minutes - if lucky.
High power charges *currently* (pun intended) greatly reduce battery lifespan.

Even if there were power points at the same distances as there are Servos, I still cannot match the convenience of hydrocarbon fuel with current EV.

Who knows what will happen down the line…What's the line? 10 litres of petrol/diesel and you have more power than the Pharaohs? Cheers

[bob10]

Qld have fast chargers every 100 to 200 KM's up the coast road. 18 more are being added to the road to Mt Isa on top of the 30 already in place.

Queensland to add 18 new EV chargers to take 'electric super highway' inland (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/06/17/queensland-to-add-18-new-ev-chargers-to-take-electric-super-highway-inland/)

[Don 130]

We've got a long way to go to encourage a big take-up of EVs when you consider the prices elsewhere. The list in the following link being an example, and almost no other country has the great distances to travel that we have outside of city commuting.

Every electric vehicle on sale in the US for 2021 and its range - Roadshow (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/electric-car-ev-range-audi-chevy-ford-tesla/?ftag=CAD13782fc&bhid=25051678190272141260800696281423&mid=13404895&cid=534149357)

Don.

[Homestar]

Qld have fast chargers every 100 to 200 KM's up the coast road. 18 more are being added to the road to Mt Isa on top of the 30 already in place.

Queensland to add 18 new EV chargers to take 'electric super highway' inland (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/06/17/queensland-to-add-18-new-ev-chargers-to-take-electric-super-highway-inland/)

You might as well take the Bus if you are limited to major roads to use your car - that’s far more ‘green’ than an EV as well.

There’s a good slogan - ‘Want an EV but can’t afford one? Take the bus - it’s basically the same anyway’ [emoji38]

[DiscoMick]

These flying EVs sound like fun, despite the limited battery life.

Flying electric car takes off in South Australian desert ahead of Formula One-style races | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/17/flying-electric-car-takes-off-in-south-australian-desert-ahead-of-formula-one-style-races?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[goingbush]

These flying EVs sound like fun, despite the limited battery life.

Flying electric car takes off in South Australian desert ahead of Formula One-style races | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jun/17/flying-electric-car-takes-off-in-south-australian-desert-ahead-of-formula-one-style-races?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)


Its just a drone, Unmanned no problem, lets see how long it can fly with 100kg load in the seat. not going to happen just another scam to suck in investors .

[DiscoMick]

Having to design it to be able to carry a human must have added a lot of bulk and weight.

[DiscoMick]

Think John Cadogan might be right to predict Tesla will struggle to compete with big car manufacturers as they roll out EVs.
Hyundai, Nissan and the Chinese company which owns MG, LDV and other brands are already churning out EVs much cheaper than Tesla.
The Euro companies are also pivoting, the Japanese must be close to revealing more EVs and the Americans are trying to catch up.
Tesla is going to face huge competition. It needs to release compact EVs if it is to keep growing.

[Homestar]

Think John Cadogan might be right to predict Tesla will struggle to compete with big car manufacturers as they roll out EVs.
Hyundai, Nissan and the Chinese company which owns MG, LDV and other brands are already churning out EVs much cheaper than Tesla.
The Euro companies are also pivoting, the Japanese must be close to revealing more EVs and the Americans are trying to catch up.
Tesla is going to face huge competition. It needs to release compact EVs if it is to keep growing.

Tesla needs to change its business model as well - they only make a profit by selling their green credits to other companies. Their cars don’t make them any money at all.

[NavyDiver]

alas I have to bag my EV[bigwhistle] My car came back after two weeks apparently fixing the issue it did not go as far as it was suposed to. I drove to work and back a few times then fully charged Saturday.

Tested today with a sub 195km return drive. Failed at several measures plus. At Geelong 95 km from home car was showing 75km range left.

Not being suicidal. I charged for an hour in Geelong adding more than 7Kw. 95 km to home was a fail plus. 60.4km from Geelong is a CCS charge point. The car was showing Zero http://forums.aeva.asn.au/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif It got to that charge point which would have been with out the extra charge added in Geelong a sub 150km drive! With the hour 7 kw extra my car is replacement or refund now sadly. The MG is fine to drive. If it was 10 or 20% I would be happy. Being almost 50% sub the WLTP range indicates a battery fault with mine I think.

Not going to bag MG as I liked it for the work trips but not for what it claimed it should have been able to do. Not a chance my car would have made 170km. It is supposed to do 260ish KM[bigwhistle]

Wonder how the poor dealer is going to cope with me?

[scarry]

alas I have to bag my EV[bigwhistle] My car came back after two weeks apparently fixing the issue it did not go as far as it was suposed to. I drove to work and back a few times then fully charged Saturday.

Tested today with a sub 195km return drive. Failed at several measures plus. At Geelong 95 km from home car was showing 75km range left.

Not being suicidal. I charged for an hour in Geelong adding more than 7Kw. 95 km to home was a fail plus. 60.4km from Geelong is a CCS charge point. The car was showing Zero http://forums.aeva.asn.au/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif It got to that charge point which would have been with out the extra charge added in Geelong a sub 150km drive! With the hour 7 kw extra my car is replacement or refund now sadly. The MG is fine to drive. If it was 10 or 20% I would be happy. Being almost 50% sub the WLTP range indicates a battery fault with mine I think.

Not going to bag MG as I liked it for the work trips but not for what it claimed it should have been able to do. Not a chance my car would have made 170km. It is supposed to do 260ish KM[bigwhistle]

Wonder how the poor dealer is going to cope with me?


I am glad you are the guinea pig,not me[tonguewink]

Did 1280Km the other afternoon/night,one fuel stop,quick 15 minutes,including a coffee for SWMBO,no worries...[biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

I am glad you are the guinea pig,not me[tonguewink]

Did 1280Km the other afternoon/night,one fuel stop,quick 15 minutes,including a coffee for SWMBO,no worries...[biggrin]

Did that and every day on the way back and also on the way to Perth in my Disco not that long ago. Note I like to drink a fair bit of water so I might pull up every 3 hours or so [biggrin]

The EV is not a Disco replacement. The odd bit is I can find dozens of people in Australia and else where who do get the WLTP range or even better. Fairly safe to bet I got a faulty battery cell or two in the EV I think. Not my problem - its the dealer I am feeling a little sorry for.

Noting I have had three faulty batteries in my Disco over the last ten years so not a total shocker [thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

alas I have to bag my EV[bigwhistle] My car came back after two weeks apparently fixing the issue it did not go as far as it was suposed to. I drove to work and back a few times then fully charged Saturday.

Tested today with a sub 195km return drive. Failed at several measures plus. At Geelong 95 km from home car was showing 75km range left.

Not being suicidal. I charged for an hour in Geelong adding more than 7Kw. 95 km to home was a fail plus. 60.4km from Geelong is a CCS charge point. The car was showing Zero http://forums.aeva.asn.au/images/smilies/icon_cry.gif It got to that charge point which would have been with out the extra charge added in Geelong a sub 150km drive! With the hour 7 kw extra my car is replacement or refund now sadly. The MG is fine to drive. If it was 10 or 20% I would be happy. Being almost 50% sub the WLTP range indicates a battery fault with mine I think.

Not going to bag MG as I liked it for the work trips but not for what it claimed it should have been able to do. Not a chance my car would have made 170km. It is supposed to do 260ish KM[bigwhistle]

Wonder how the poor dealer is going to cope with me?


That's a real shame - wonder how the dealer will handle the situation - it's likely they will have to start dealing with this sort of thing on a more regular basis. Please keep us informed if you can - depends on how they react as to whether you can post their response here I suppose. If you can't even drive Melbourne to Geelong and back, that's a pretty severe limitation.

[NavyDiver]

That's a real shame - wonder how the dealer will handle the situation - it's likely they will have to start dealing with this sort of thing on a more regular basis. Please keep us informed if you can - depends on how they react as to whether you can post their response here I suppose. If you can't even drive Melbourne to Geelong and back, that's a pretty severe limitation.

A 2nd Chance for my little quirky car.

Ringwood and other MG dealers received a "MG_Motor_Bulletin_ZS_EV_BMS_update_announcement_18 0321" which highlights my issues which is not just me. Happily it has a probable resolution which I am happy to try.

Odd it was not provided to me at the date it was released as it would have saved me several frustrating hours- Small issue of a few hours yet:rulez:.


apparently I have one of the "70 ZS EVs sold to customers in Australia" Flagged myself as an early adopter again after my almost 10 year old Flow Batteries UPS at work [biggrin]

For me specifically
"[B]For vehicles whose range has dropped by more than 40%, will the battery recover by itself?
This loss of range is caused by the battery cell voltage gap, not a reduction in battery performance,
and the voltage gap of the battery cell is recoverable.
The battery itself can carry out the balancing of the battery cell voltage gap, and the newly released
software enhances the battery’s ability to do so."


It is exactly what a UK forum user described to enable the battery cells to re balance.

I will happily run to a very low state of charge then slow charge to 100% for a few weeks then try Geelong return again[thumbsupbig]

[bob10]

Top economists call for budget measures to speed the switch to EV's in order to meet emission reduction targets. Subsidising public charging stations, subsidising the purchase of all electric vehicles, and setting a date to ban the import of traditionally powered cars is what is asked for. Seems a very big ask, to me.



https://cdn.theconversation.com/avatars/682709/width170/peterout.jpgPeter Martin (https://theconversation.com/profiles/peter-martin-682709)Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University


Disclosure statementPeter Martin does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment



Top economists call for budget measures to speed the switch to electric cars (theconversation.com) (https://theconversation.com/top-economists-call-for-budget-measures-to-speed-the-switch-to-electric-cars-162883)

[Homestar]

Top economists call for budget measures to speed the switch to EV's in order to meet emission reduction targets. Subsidising public charging stations, subsidising the purchase of all electric vehicles, and setting a date to ban the import of traditionally powered cars is what is asked for. Seems a very big ask, to me.



https://cdn.theconversation.com/avatars/682709/width170/peterout.jpgPeter Martin (https://theconversation.com/profiles/peter-martin-682709)Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University


Disclosure statement

Peter Martin does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment



Top economists call for budget measures to speed the switch to electric cars (theconversation.com) (https://theconversation.com/top-economists-call-for-budget-measures-to-speed-the-switch-to-electric-cars-162883)

As no Poly has a suicide wish when it comes to the next Election, I can't see anything coming from calls like this. Even if something were to happen - where's the money coming from - we're talking multi billion dollars a year - for decades in all likelihood and still not coming close to solving any issues - the power to run them will still be coming from the grid - all we'll do is push the use of fossil fuels elsewhere - while there are some benefits to doing this regarding local pollution in the cities, etc it would be better to get the grid closer to being renewable than subsidising EV's.

And I riddle you this - where is the power coming from if we take all the ICE vehicles off the road over a short period - say 10 years? The grid sure can't handle that load as it is so solar and batteries on every roof with an EV would almost be mandatory - great stuff, but again - who's paying for it?

[scarry]

As no Poly has a suicide wish when it comes to the next Election, I can't see anything coming from calls like this. Even if something were to happen - where's the money coming from - we're talking multi billion dollars a year - for decades in all likelihood and still not coming close to solving any issues - the power to run them will still be coming from the grid - all we'll do is push the use of fossil fuels elsewhere - while there are some benefits to doing this regarding local pollution in the cities, etc it would be better to get the grid closer to being renewable than subsidising EV's.

And I riddle you this - where is the power coming from if we take all the ICE vehicles off the road over a short period - say 10 years? The grid sure can't handle that load as it is so solar and batteries on every roof with an EV would almost be mandatory - great stuff, but again - who's paying for it?

Exactly,i have been saying this for ages.The power has to come from somewhere,renewables wont be able to keep up.The amount of infastructure,even just the number and sizes of the cables,transformers,charging pointsetc,etc,will be huge.This is decades away.

I really think hydrogen powered vehicles have more chance of taking off than EV's.

And once the Govt starts giving money for this and that it all usually becomes a big mess and often turns into a rort,no matter what govt it is,although some do a better job than others.
Have a look at their track record...[bighmmm]

Some of the European countries are subsidising EV's,but they have said it wont be for long.
NZ will put a tax on new vehicles that emit over a nominated amount of emissions in the near future.It appears to be a one off tax when the new vehicle is sold,seems just another tax,nothing much else.I cant see it putting buyers of those vehicles off,they will just pay the tax.Apparently most dual cab utes will have the tax.

[Tombie]

That’s the best part of being one of those learned types.

Big ideas and opinions with no application in the real world. [emoji56]

[Eevo]

doesnt matter about renewables, aust still has the highest elec prices in the world. this is a barrier to entry, and with extra EV demand, prices will be going up.

[Homestar]

aust still has the highest elec prices in the world.

Not even close - maybe in SA you’re getting close but not overall.

Cost of electricity in Australia – How are we doing in 2020? (https://www.leadingedgeenergy.com.au/news/cost-of-electricity-in-australia-in-2020/)

[Eevo]

Not even close - maybe in SA you’re getting close but not overall.

Cost of electricity in Australia – How are we doing in 2020? (https://www.leadingedgeenergy.com.au/news/cost-of-electricity-in-australia-in-2020/)


maybe you should go read the link you posted as you just proved my point.

[Homestar]

maybe you should go read the link you posted as you just proved my point.

I have - there's a link to 2017 when we were but now we are at 23 in 2019 and prices have fallen since then.

From the article -
In one of our articles from 2017, we reported that Australia was top-ranked for the most expensive electricity prices (https://www.leadingedgeenergy.com.au/blog/highest-electricity-prices-world/) in the world. But as of September 2019, Australia had 23rd place locked in, as you may see in the table below – a solid feat, all things considered.

The link is to a 2017 report.

And another report here - • Electricity prices by country 2020 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/) shows we are down the list a bit. Not sure what point you're trying to make or what your interpretation of the data is but happy to hear it.

And a 2019 fact check on a NSW Labor claim that NSW had the highest power prices in the world - Does NSW have the highest power prices in the developed world? (https://factcheck.aap.com.au/claims/does-nsw-have-the-highest-power-prices-in-the-developed-world)

AEMC report shows prices dropping - https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/2020%20Residential%20Electricity%20Price%20Trends% 20report%20-%2015122020.pdf

And the pretty little slide show to go with it - https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/2020%20Residential%20Electricity%20Price%20Trends% 20presentation%20-%2015122020.pdf

[Eevo]

prices have fallen since then.

they must be talking wholesale rates, cause residential rates have not gone down and are not that cheap.
'
the statista link says aust rates are 25cents and rates havent been that cheap in 10 years.

[Homestar]

Wholesale is around $0.05 give or take - the 25 cents is an average retail over the whole of Aus. Mine is down to $0.1984 per KWh from $0.22 2 years ago. Can get it for $0.18 ish at the moment here on an average of $0.2096 here in Vic at the moment. Most people don't shop around for their power so stick with one supplier year in, year out but there's always a deal to be had if you have the time and inclination to dick around every 12 months or so.

Electricity Costs Per kWh | QLD, SA, VIC, NSW Rates – Canstar Blue (https://www.canstarblue.com.au/electricity/electricity-costs-kwh/)

But I can see SA is much more expensive than most States - but based on your power mix, that's understandable. Gas and reneawables aren't cheap - even though some people say they are - the proof is in the pudding. I'm sure ours will go up as we phase out more coal plants.

[Eevo]

Australian households pay highest power prices in world (https://www.afr.com/politics/australian-households-pay-highest-power-prices-in-world-20170804-gxp58a#:~:text=South%20Australian%20households%20a re%20paying,Markets'%20MarkIntell%20data%20service %20says).

Australian residential customers are paying the highest electricity prices in the world - two to three times more than American households - but experts say they need more than information to navigate the thicket of discounts and offers.


South Australian households are paying the highest prices in the world at 47.13¢ per kilowatt hour, more than Germany, Denmark and Italy which heavily tax energy, after the huge increases on July 1, Carbon + Energy Markets' MarkIntell data service says.


South Australia power prices to rise to highest in the world on Saturday, energy expert warns - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-28/sa-has-most-expensive-power-prices-in-the-world/8658434)

[Eevo]

I have - there's a link to 2017 when we were but now we are at 23 in 2019 and prices have fallen since then.

From the article -
In one of our articles from 2017, we reported that Australia was top-ranked for the most expensive electricity prices (https://www.leadingedgeenergy.com.au/blog/highest-electricity-prices-world/) in the world. But as of September 2019, Australia had 23rd place locked in, as you may see in the table below – a solid feat, all things considered.

The link is to a 2017 report.

And another report here - • Electricity prices by country 2020 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/263492/electricity-prices-in-selected-countries/) shows we are down the list a bit. Not sure what point you're trying to make or what your interpretation of the data is but happy to hear it.

And a 2019 fact check on a NSW Labor claim that NSW had the highest power prices in the world - Does NSW have the highest power prices in the developed world? (https://factcheck.aap.com.au/claims/does-nsw-have-the-highest-power-prices-in-the-developed-world)

AEMC report shows prices dropping - https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/2020%20Residential%20Electricity%20Price%20Trends% 20report%20-%2015122020.pdf

And the pretty little slide show to go with it - https://www.aemc.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-12/2020%20Residential%20Electricity%20Price%20Trends% 20presentation%20-%2015122020.pdf


According the Australian Energy Market 2017 Residential Electricity Price Trends report, South Australia does indeed have the highest retail prices in the nation. Current prices for the typical SA customer are 37.79c/kWh.


According to that report, the Australian Capital Territory has the lowest retail electricity prices in Australia, at around 23.68 c/kWh.

[Homestar]

Australian households pay highest power prices in world (https://www.afr.com/politics/australian-households-pay-highest-power-prices-in-world-20170804-gxp58a#:~:text=South%20Australian%20households%20a re%20paying,Markets'%20MarkIntell%20data%20service %20says).

Australian residential customers are paying the highest electricity prices in the world - two to three times more than American households - but experts say they need more than information to navigate the thicket of discounts and offers.


South Australian households are paying the highest prices in the world at 47.13¢ per kilowatt hour, more than Germany, Denmark and Italy which heavily tax energy, after the huge increases on July 1, Carbon + Energy Markets' MarkIntell data service says.


South Australia power prices to rise to highest in the world on Saturday, energy expert warns - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-28/sa-has-most-expensive-power-prices-in-the-world/8658434)

Again, 2017 reports. Prices have dropped since then - we're in 2021 now - your data is 4 years old.

First website I went to and put in Adelaide as the address gave me under 30 cents. You need to shop around if you're paying 40 plus cents.

171738

And while I'm not publishing my Electricity bill here just to prove what I'm saying, I pay under 20 cents per KW hour at the moment - down from 4 years ago. I'd suggest you start ringing around for a better deal or move to another state if it worries you that much. :)

[bob10]

EV subsidy, NSW to abolish stamp duty on EV's. NSW is also providing 25,000 rebates worth $3000 each , delaying a road user charge on EV's for six years, or until EV's make up 30% of new vehicle sales. Sounds good, but how far has NSW come with infrastructure for EV's ? I suppose one follows the other.

Electric vehicle subsidy: NSW to provide $3000 EV rebate (thenewdaily.com.au) (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/consumer/2021/06/21/electric-vehicle-subsidy-nsw/)

[Eevo]

Again, 2017 reports. Prices have dropped since then - we're in 2021 now - your data is 4 years old.

First website I went to and put in Adelaide as the address gave me under 30 cents. You need to shop around if you're paying 40 plus cents.

171738

And while I'm not publishing my Electricity bill here just to prove what I'm saying, I pay under 20 cents per KW hour at the moment - down from 4 years ago. I'd suggest you start ringing around for a better deal or move to another state if it worries you that much. :)


prices not dropped here.
in the image, that supply charge is higher than average. whats why.

just chekcing, i think im on 36 cents

[Eevo]

just chekcing, i think im on 36 cents


ah yes. 36.8.
i can go down to 32.8 bt by feed in tarrif drops to 8 cents

[Eevo]

First website I went to and put in Adelaide as the address gave me under 30 cents. You need to shop around if you're paying 40 plus cents.

171738

And while I'm not publishing my Electricity bill here just to prove what I'm saying, I pay under 20 cents per KW hour at the moment - down from 4 years ago. I'd suggest you start ringing around for a better deal or move to another state if it worries you that much. :)

what website was that? i just looked using the govt compare website, cheapest is 33 cents for SA..


look, all im saying is that electricity is expensive in Australia. your 20 cents per kw hour is 5 times more expensive than china. I'll send you my chinese power bill if you want (crypto mining)

[Homestar]

EV subsidy, NSW to abolish stamp duty on EV's. NSW is also providing 25,000 rebates worth $3000 each , delaying a road user charge on EV's for six years, or until EV's make up 30% of new vehicle sales. Sounds good, but how far has NSW come with infrastructure for EV's ? I suppose one follows the other.

Electric vehicle subsidy: NSW to provide $3000 EV rebate (thenewdaily.com.au) (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/consumer/2021/06/21/electric-vehicle-subsidy-nsw/)

Well that's miles ahead of what our numtys did down here by just whacking a tax on them for **** and giggles...

[350RRC]

what website was that? i just looked using the govt compare website, cheapest is 33 cents for SA..


look, all im saying is that electricity is expensive in Australia. your 20 cents per kw hour is 5 times more expensive than china. I'll send you my chinese power bill if you want (crypto mining)

I've got a pic of an article in the Oz from a month or so ago, will post when I can get time to work out how to get the size right.

The article headline is 'Price of electricity the lowest since 2012'.

It goes on to list the state's individual wholesale generator prices for the first quarter of 2021.

NSW $38 / MWh, Vic $25, etc. SA the lowest at MINUS $12 / MWh.

In NSW, for example, $38 / MWh equates to 3.8 cents per KWh. All the rest is cost of distribution and retail................ generally all by entities that were privatised by various states.

AFAIK Vic is the only state that has read the riot act to these entities, confirmed by 2 letters from my retailer (I have 2 smart meters). I'm supposedly going to get lower bills.

I did last time when the Vic gov read the retailers the riot act about default pricing

I have noticed that the practice of pruning of trees under the supply line to chez moi is a bit overdue, as in the past it was always 3 or 4 times a year, 4m from the lines and was always done on a Sat or Sunday................. no trees around here grow that fast in a whole year.

If anyone wants to post up the pic of the article pm me a number and I'll text it. Needs rotation.

cheers, DL

[Eevo]

It goes on to list the state's individual wholesale generator prices for the first quarter of 2021.



going by that, SA retail prices should be the cheapest in the nation

[350RRC]

going by that, SA retail prices should be the cheapest in the nation

You have the distributer and retailer between the generator and your good self.

DL

[Eevo]

You have the distributer and retailer between the generator and your good self.

DL
exactly! which makes the wholesaler price irrelevant.

[350RRC]

exactly! which makes the wholesaler price irrelevant.

It's relevant in one sense............ the states with the largest % of renewables generally have the lowest wholesale prices.

Dunno what the situation is in SA, but in Vic at least two major distribution monopolies have a foreign entity as a holder of a large amount of shares.

When one has a look at that entity's estimated profit to turnover figures one's eyes water.

DL

[Eevo]

It's relevant in one sense............ the states with the largest % of renewables generally have the lowest wholesale prices.

Dunno what the situation is in SA, but in Vic at least two major distribution monopolies have a foreign entity as a holder of a large amount of shares.

When one has a look at that entity's estimated profit to turnover figures one's eyes water.

DL

except we're talking about charging an EV here. we charge EV at retail rates, not wholesale. why would we want that when electricity isnt cheap? we're a ****ing dumb country thats why.


SApower networks (the distributor) is hong kong owned i believe.

[350RRC]

except we're talking about charging an EV here. we charge EV at retail rates, not wholesale. why would we want that when electricity isnt cheap? we're a ****ing dumb country thats why.


SApower networks (the distributor) is hong kong owned i believe.

Might be the same private company.

There's a stack of stuff that needs to be sorted out before EV's are really going to happen.

Who owns the first plate EV OO oe EE VO?

cheers, DL

[Eevo]

Might be the same private company.

There's a stack of stuff that needs to be sorted out before EV's are really going to happen.

Who owns the first plate EV OO oe EE VO?

cheers, DL
from wikiedia
Powercor is 51% owned by the Cheung Kong group and 49% by Spark Infrastructure which also own Citipower, which maintain the city of Melbourne's CBD network, and SA Power Networks, which maintains the South Australian network.

[350RRC]

from wikiedia
Powercor is 51% owned by the Cheung Kong group and 49% by Spark Infrastructure which also own Citipower, which maintain the city of Melbourne's CBD network, and SA Power Networks, which maintains the South Australian network.

And Powercor who do the whole of western Vic, and who were forced by the Vic Gov to compensate all 'meter owners' for a transmission outage that was due their fault. Same outage was blamed on renewable generation in some sections of the media.

Keep digging Eevo............. find the profit / turnover figures for the privately owned HK group. Tissues handy.

DL

[DiscoMick]

This could be my dream EV. Maybe yours too?

*EPIC* 450hp Tesla Powered 'Spectre' Defender - Driven up a Mountain ! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/3b3o_IGAYlU)

[Tombie]

This could be my dream EV. Maybe yours too?

*EPIC* 450hp Tesla Powered 'Spectre' Defender - Driven up a Mountain ! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/3b3o_IGAYlU)

Interesting. Thanks for the link Mick

[goingbush]

This could be my dream EV. Maybe yours too?

*EPIC* 450hp Tesla Powered 'Spectre' Defender - Driven up a Mountain ! - YouTube (https://youtu.be/3b3o_IGAYlU)

Absolutely useless without low range , They call a winding 10% road a mountain . Id like to see it do a slow technical climb with a ledge , or go over some rocks / steps , everything they do is too fast . Seen nothing slow without wheelspin. Relying just on TC and ATB in the centre diff too. no diff lock.

100% torque at zero means bugger all unless they have at least 10,000Nm at the axle , and they won't have half that.

[DiscoMick]

Actually, its way out of my price range, but no law against dreaming.

[cripesamighty]

I do like the effort they put into it, but I too was a little surprised they didn't include a low range box.

[DiscoMick]

I think they argued there was no need for high-low ranges because an EV has 100% of power and torque available from nought revs. Not sure about that, personally.

[DiscoMick]

Qld is adding 18 extra EV chargers inland, in addition to the existing chargers on the coast north to Port Douglas and West to Toowoomba. The aim is to space the chargers about 200kms apart.
Queensland's Electric Super Highway | Transport and motoring | Queensland Government (https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/electricvehicles/super-highway)

[Eevo]

I think they argued there was no need for high-low ranges because an EV has 100% of power and torque available from nought revs. Not sure about that, personally.

213 ft-lbs torque

so its about 300Nm of torque from zero. at 1000rpm my car is making about the same torque without low range.

i would guess/costs/complexity is keepng ev from having low range???

[DiscoMick]

I think they just used the Tesla transmission. They had to replace the LR drive train because it was too weak to cope with the extra power of the Tesla.

[goingbush]

I think they argued there was no need for high-low ranges because an EV has 100% of power and torque available from nought revs. Not sure about that, personally.

There definetly is 100% torque from Zero , but the torque is not infinite. 100% power isnt achieved till well later , 5000RPM in my Landy , maybe 10,000RPM with a Tesla motor.
Power doesn't matter so much , torque is whats important . .

Think a Td5 Defender wanting to climb a vertical obstacle , like a rock , log , step or even a high kerb ( above centre of wheel)

lets do some maths . Td5 380Nm 2nd gear in a R380 = 2.132 Low TC = 3.321 Diff = 3.54 . 380 x 2.132 x 3.321 x 3.54 = 9,524Nm, (at axle)

my DIY EV only has 150 NM ,
I need 1st gear Low, for same 1st gear =3.6 low TC= 2.35 , Diff = 4.75 150 x 3.6 x 2.35 x 4.75 = 6027Nm

A Tesla P100D torque = 1250Nm , no transfer case x 3.54 Diff = 4425NM = would not climb out of a wet paper bag , or if your parked up against a rock you wont climb over it from a standstill.


My landy just sits at the bottom in low second which is coincidently about 4000Nm at the axle.

https://youtu.be/8GFqk3EZNK8

[goingbush]

I think they just used the Tesla transmission. They had to replace the LR drive train because it was too weak to cope with the extra power of the Tesla.

They used a tesla drive unit mounted longitudinal with a Quaife ATB in the diff , and driveshafts to the usual Defender diffs with 3.54 and ATB's.
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/DSC_2565-1440x960.jpg

Other Tesla to Defender conversions mount the Tesla motor onto the LT230 , which is the proper way to convert, unless you just want a street cruiser, which I expect most LandRovers in UK are anyway.

[bob10]

New electric Kombi on the way. It may not come to Australia, because VW said Australia's lack of supportive policy it would be 2023 before they would consider importing the IDBuzz, as the vehicle is called. The lack of vehicle emmissions regulation in Australia is considered the elephant in the room by VW, and other EV manufacturers. From The Driven;

https://thedriven.io/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/cRfxcZR1_400x400.jpg (https://thedriven.io/author/bridie/)
Bridie Schmidt (https://thedriven.io/author/bridie/)
Bridie Schmidt is lead reporter for The Driven (https://thedriven.io/), sister site of Renew Economy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/). She specialises in writing about new technology and has been writing about electric vehicles since 2018. She has a keen interest in the role that zero emissions transport has to play in sustainability. She has participated in podcasts such as Download This Show with Marc Fennell and Shirtloads of Science with Karl Kruszelnicki and is co-organiser of the Northern Rivers Electric Vehicle Forum.



New electric Kombi seen charging ahead of its formal 2022 reveal (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/06/29/new-electric-kombi-seen-charging-ahead-of-its-formal-2022-reveal/)

[DiscoMick]

In some countries the emissions regulations reward companies which market low emissions vehicles and penalise companies for vehicles with dirty exhausts. Ours don't. So naturally companies send their clean vehicles to those markets.

[Tombie]

In some countries the emissions regulations reward companies which market low emissions vehicles and penalise companies for vehicles with dirty exhausts. Ours don't. So naturally companies send their clean vehicles to those markets.

Everyone still pays though. The rewards come from somewhere.

[scarry]

In some countries the emissions regulations reward companies which market low emissions vehicles and penalise companies for vehicles with dirty exhausts. Ours don't. So naturally companies send their clean vehicles to those markets.

NZ has just started a system,not much thought has gone into it,many are complaining and rightly so.

Hopefully if some kind of system does appear here it will be well thought out,and sensible,not something to make them pretend to look like they are doing the right thing,and a knee jerk reaction.

[scarry]

Everyone still pays though. The rewards come from somewhere.

Exactly,and many of the European countries that are subsidising EV’s in one way or another have said this is only a temporary arrangement.

Some countries have already stopped.

[bob10]

An update on the 4X4 EV's being developed for the mining industry. Wouldn't take much to adapt them for use outside mining.

Tembo 4x4 and Voltra battery electric LandCruisers (outbacktravelaustralia.com.au) (https://outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/buyers-guide-utes-large/electric-landcruisers/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Outback%20Travel%20Australia%20July%2 02021%20Newsletter&utm_content=Outback%20Travel%20Australia%20July%20 2021%20Newsletter+CID_2f90d1f12d9ac7b6d595fd44ec1f 6299&utm_source=OTA%20Mailer&utm_term=electric%2070%20Series)

[bob10]

Exactly,and many of the European countries that are subsidising EV’s in one way or another have said this is only a temporary arrangement.

Some countries have already stopped.

Subsidising EV's is primarily to get the numbers to a point where the price comes down, and the public buys into the concept. When the infrastructure is built to support them , they will then be the mainstream mode of transport. They are the way of the future, and those countries investing in EV manufacture and export will be leading the way to a new economy. It's not too late to get on board .

[scarry]

[QUOTE=bob10;3092991]Subsidising EV's is primarily to get the numbers to a point where the price comes down,/QUOTE]

It wouldnt be a political stunt by some,not saying all?

No, that would never happen,anyway,time to move on.[biggrin]

[goingbush]

Everyone still pays though. The rewards come from somewhere.

Correct. And so it should be , Of course the The people using non renewable should also contribute to a sustainable future . FFS.

[Tombie]

Correct. And so it should be , Of course the The people using non renewable should also contribute to a sustainable future . FFS.

Should it?

So far none of this has demonstrated it is sustainable. People on the financial edge will be taxed into oblivion to cover it, and those who can afford it will go blissfully on in ignorance.

A sustainable future doesn’t involve ripping more and more elements out of the ground to feed the thirst of ever increasing population.

Nor does it work if the average citizen can no longer afford the basics due to increased costs of literally everything to fund a quest towards lower per capita emissions whilst exponentially increasing populations.

This one eyed approach is more ****ed than Linda Lovelace. [emoji56]

[goingbush]

Should it?

So far none of this has demonstrated it is sustainable. People on the financial edge will be taxed into oblivion to cover it, and those who can afford it will go blissfully on in ignorance.

A sustainable future doesn’t involve ripping more and more elements out of the ground to feed the thirst of ever increasing population.

Nor does it work if the average citizen can no longer afford the basics due to increased costs of literally everything to fund a quest towards lower per capita emissions whilst exponentially increasing populations.

This one eyed approach is more ****ed than Linda Lovelace. [emoji56]

what a short sighted attitude you have, basically its a case of Adapt or Die .

[Homestar]

what a short sighted attitude you have, basically its a case of Adapt or Die .

But adapt to what is still a question yet to be answered. I think EV’s are a reasonable stop gap but not the overall solution - well, not new EV’s anyway - your converted Lightweight ticks a lot more boxes as far less resources were used to get it on the road than any new EV and you run it as environmentally responsible as is possible with solar and batteries, but not everyone can do this (although how good would it be if we had a world full of repurposed Land Rover EV’s) [emoji16][emoji4][emoji106]