EV general discussion

[Homestar]

Here's the spec sheet. Any feedback on these modules from your experience? I'm thinking about using them in my Series 1 EV conversion with a Hyper9.

180363

Not much detail in there - I’d want to know max discharge current over time curves at least. CALB batteries aren’t bad though, so for the price should be fine. We haven’t used these particular units. In 12 volt we have some 300Ah Victron but we mostly run 48 volt rack mounted batteries but we have a some systems with 24 volt gear too.

1 thing to watch out for is what your anticipated battery system voltage is going to be - if you’ll be running say 48 volts, putting 4 x 12 volt units in series isn’t the best way to go. Putting batteries in series can lead to depleting on of them or you could find one is not charging as well as it should due to slight differences in internal resistance. If you use a battery that’s at your rated output the internal BMS takes care of the cell balancing and this isn’t an issue. If your system voltage is going to be too high then it’s unavoidable but you’ll have to go to the extra effort and expense of using battery equalisation units between the batteries- these let a small amount of current around a battery when it’s full to finish charging others in the system that may not quite be full.

Not a deal breaker but something to think about.

[NavyDiver]

grrr- I want it before Landrover suggest 2024[biggrin]

Disco is booked in for a yearly service - I have a love hate relationship with it now. I need it yet hate the costs as it is not my daily drive now. The hydrogen fuel cell is likely to be the first option for really long range EV I suspect even it it is in the boot of a BEV [biggrin]


Volvo is hmmm We need another way in towing and traveling and current gen EV is not up to many of our needs


City 420kmCity driving and low average speeds tend to be the most efficient scenarios for electric cars. However, in colder weather, when you are more likely to use the heater and with other factors taken into consideration, the vehicle range is approximately 210km.


Combined 360kmThis is a combination of city and highway driving. At an average speed that reflects these circumstances but in lower temperatures and with increased use of the vehicle’s heating system, the vehicle range is approximately 200km.


Highway 300kmOn the highway at average speeds of around 100km/h, the power required to overcome higher wind resistance puts extra demands on the battery. In colder weather and in less than ideal road conditions, the vehicle range is approximately 220km.






Volvo Range is possibly honest at least [bighmmm] Electric cars | Volvo Cars - Australia (https://www.volvocars.com/au/v/cars/electric-cars)

[scarry]

grrr- I want it before Landrover suggest 2024[biggrin]

Disco is booked in for a yearly service - I have a love hate relationship with it now. I need it yet hate the costs as it is not my daily drive now. The hydrogen fuel cell is likely to be the first option for really long range EV I suspect even it it is in the boot of a BEV [biggrin]


Volvo is hmmm We need another way in towing and traveling and current gen EV is not up to many of our needs


City 420kmCity driving and low average speeds tend to be the most efficient scenarios for electric cars. However, in colder weather, when you are more likely to use the heater and with other factors taken into consideration, the vehicle range is approximately 210km.


Combined 360kmThis is a combination of city and highway driving. At an average speed that reflects these circumstances but in lower temperatures and with increased use of the vehicle’s heating system, the vehicle range is approximately 200km.


Highway 300kmOn the highway at average speeds of around 100km/h, the power required to overcome higher wind resistance puts extra demands on the battery. In colder weather and in less than ideal road conditions, the vehicle range is approximately 220km.






Volvo Range is possibly honest at least [bighmmm] Electric cars | Volvo Cars - Australia (https://www.volvocars.com/au/v/cars/electric-cars)

Load it up,dont drive like a Nana,range is going plummet even more[bigsad]

[NavyDiver]

Load it up,dont drive like a Nana,range is going plummet even more[bigsad]

Are we there yet? was a question kids might state repeatedly. It is screaming out loud yet happily in some shipping sectors some carbon free helpful options are in play.[biggrin]

[RANDLOVER]

Here's the spec sheet. Any feedback on these modules from your experience? I'm thinking about using them in my Series 1 EV conversion with a Hyper9.

180363

Here is a a conversion of a Land Rover Perentie with a Hyper 9 by British Off Road.....British Off Road - Electric Vehicle (EV) parts and conversion (https://www.britishoffroad.com/ev.aspx)

[scarry]

Why California Residents Suddenly Can't Charge Their Electric Vehicles - Tell Me Best (https://www.tellmebest.com/california-residents-cant-charge-electric-vehicles-heatwave/?fbclid=IwAR3RZbarxSErVhU3TOZLiFTIvAdmXQVcAoo5KVo3 RBTqtjuGzwp6jZho9N8)

[Homestar]

Why California Residents Suddenly Can't Charge Their Electric Vehicles - Tell Me Best (https://www.tellmebest.com/california-residents-cant-charge-electric-vehicles-heatwave/?fbclid=IwAR3RZbarxSErVhU3TOZLiFTIvAdmXQVcAoo5KVo3 RBTqtjuGzwp6jZho9N8)

So you have to buy an electric car within a few years but you’re advised not to charge it at high demand times. Anyone else see an issue here?

[Homestar]

Why California Residents Suddenly Can't Charge Their Electric Vehicles - Tell Me Best (https://www.tellmebest.com/california-residents-cant-charge-electric-vehicles-heatwave/?fbclid=IwAR3RZbarxSErVhU3TOZLiFTIvAdmXQVcAoo5KVo3 RBTqtjuGzwp6jZho9N8)

So you have to buy an electric car within a few years but you’re advised not to charge it at high demand times. Anyone else see an issue here?

[scarry]

So you have to buy an electric car within a few years but you’re advised not to charge it at high demand times. Anyone else see an issue here?

Nah,only you and i that have been talking about this for what seems ages.[bigsmile1]

Just imagine how that will go with work vehicles:Rolling:

Other countries are load shedding EV charging stations at times,as well[biggrin]

[Arapiles]

Here is a a conversion of a Land Rover Perentie with a Hyper 9 by British Off Road.....British Off Road - Electric Vehicle (EV) parts and conversion (https://www.britishoffroad.com/ev.aspx)

1. Cool conversion, but for a 53kwh battery the range of 150km seems a bit low. The range of the Leaf +, with 59 kWh is 385km.

2. Interesting how many articles in that motor-trade magazine are about hybrid or electric vehicles.

[Arapiles]

Nah,only you and i that have been talking about this for what seems ages.[bigsmile1]

Just imagine how that will go with work vehicles:Rolling:

Other countries are load shedding EV charging stations at times,as well[biggrin]


Yep .... except:



it's only between 4pm and 9pm on two specific days that they've asked people to limit their charging - you could of course charge-up your car earlier on those days;




because that's peak time not many EV owners charge during those hours in any case;




the problem with the grid is air conditioning use a couple of days during a heatwave, not EV use.


Amid Heat Wave, California Asks Electric Vehicle Owners to Limit Charging - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/us/california-heat-wave-flex-alert-ac-ev-charging.html)

[Homestar]

Yep .... except:



it's only between 4pm and 9pm on two specific days that they've asked people to limit their charging - you could of course charge-up your car earlier on those days;




because that's peak time not many EV owners charge during those hours in any case;




the problem with the grid is air conditioning use a couple of days during a heatwave, not EV use.


Amid Heat Wave, California Asks Electric Vehicle Owners to Limit Charging - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/01/us/california-heat-wave-flex-alert-ac-ev-charging.html)

Can you imagine if they asked everyone to limit AC use so people could charge their EV’s? That would go down well. [emoji56]

I think the point that Scarry and I have been making for ages - years in fact, is that the world doesn’t have enough electricity for everyone to switch to battery EV’s - it just doesn’t. Glossing over all of this with tid bits and saying ‘it will happen’ as some do doesn’t make it so.

I’ll probably get called an EV hater again which I’m not - I’ve actually been looking at some for work, but they just don’t stack up for a replacement to ICE in key area - lack of power to charge them is the biggest after range issues.

The world is starting to see what we could see a mile off - those that work with power and understand it have all been saying this for ages.

[NavyDiver]

Can you imagine if they asked everyone to limit AC use so people could charge their EV’s? That would go down well. [emoji56]

I think the point that Scarry and I have been making for ages - years in fact, is that the world doesn’t have enough electricity for everyone to switch to battery EV’s - it just doesn’t. Glossing over all of this with tid bits and saying ‘it will happen’ as some do doesn’t make it so.

I’ll probably get called an EV hater again which I’m not - I’ve actually been looking at some for work, but they just don’t stack up for a replacement to ICE in key area - lack of power to charge them is the biggest after range issues.

The world is starting to see what we could see a mile off - those that work with power and understand it have all been saying this for ages.

California is asking people to be carefull today (https://abc7.com/flex-alert-california-saturday-heat-wave/12191401/) "Turn if off it you can" - trillion/Billions + of $$$$$$ investments in non nuclear and they have just worked out that the Nuclear power they were going to turn off in 2025 is needed Ditto for Germany.

Its not just EV using power. It is clearly a lack of science in spending billions+++ in the wrong areas. Not suggesting wind and solar are bad. I am convinced that Germany, California and similar over optimistic claims need reality and science if C02 free options are taken. Not here of course. [B]We are smarter than German and .... we don't need to divert the billions being spent here to reliable and efficient energy options[bighmmm] Joking of course

Not celebrating what is occurring in China, E.U. UK or anywhere else with significant power supply issues high jacked by ideological bigotry. It is clearly gong to hurt people. Texas freeze (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis) in 2021 stopped gas power and almost everything stopped for is another perfect example how power failure to plan kills hundreds of people.

Oddly very interested in my next EV option being able to feed my home when the failures to plan here bite as it seems likely they will. My home is not yet set up with hybrid inverter/ grid isolator. My old spare from work might or I may take than to a family member. Most of the newer ones have output power options. A Navy mate of mine lost grid for over a week now and is not happy as cloud day after day has stopped his set up keeping the lights on.

No perfect answer. Not fair to people who cannot afford to take steps to protect themselves. Be fair to ask the ideological bigots if they have removed themselves from the Grid perhaps[bighmmm]

Not here of course and not perfect either- "The F-150 Lightning extended-range battery system can store 131 kilowatt-hours of energy" it could power my home for over 4 days or longer if I shut a few things off (https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/features/f150-lightning-home-generator)!

Appreciate you have to charge batteries first. A 5kwh fuel cell generator is going to QLD soon. Not YET available of course. It is a race. more than a few people trip over when running I know for a fact [biggrin]

Happy fathers day all Dads

[scarry]

And on another note.

Didn't the Qld Govt just approve another coal mine,or an extension to existing?

The state will be broke,well it is anyway,i mean, more broke if we dont keep mining coal?

Wind farms,i was reading about the loss of birds and bats,need to dig out the article.

The first survey on animals killed was done by researchers,then they used sniffer dogs.
The dogs found something like 90% more peices of birds and bats,in the same area,hit by the blades,so they are pretty devastating to the wildlife.
And the ones in the sea will no doubt probably upset the birds that migrate thousands of Km's a year.[bigsad]

EDIT found it.Are Wind Turbines a Danger to Wildlife? Ask the Dogs. - The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/bat-dogs-wind-turbines/619482/)

Seems in the whole scheme of things,windfarms are no where near as bad on wildlife compared with other changes we humans make.[bigsad]

[Homestar]

Oddly very interested in my next EV option being able to feed my home when the failures to plan here bite as it seems likely they will. My home is not yet set up with hybrid inverter/ grid isolator. My old spare from work might or I may take than to a family member. Most of the newer ones have output power options. A Navy mate of mine lost grid for over a week now and is not happy as cloud day after day has stopped his set up keeping the lights on.

No perfect answer. Not fair to people who cannot afford to take steps to protect themselves. Be fair to ask the ideological bigots if they have removed themselves from the Grid perhaps[bighmmm]


I must be looking at this wrong, but if you use your EV as battery storage for the house, then should the power go out for more than a few minutes (say a tree over a line and 6 to 8 hours off supply) then unless you’re very aware of your power usage that car isn’t going to go very far the next day if needed. If you just want to run the fridge and freezer, some lighting and the TV then fine but on a hot night when the powers out I can see a car powering an AC system for a few hours before it runs out then someone complaining bitterly the next morning when they can’t get to the Coffee Shop for their morning Latte and smashed avo.

First world problem I guess for those that can afford it - that subject alone is worth a post of its own as the poor will get left behind and cop an unfair share of the **** sandwich like always…

[Arapiles]

I must be looking at this wrong, but if you use your EV as battery storage for the house, then should the power go out for more than a few minutes (say a tree over a line and 6 to 8 hours off supply) then unless you’re very aware of your power usage that car isn’t going to go very far the next day if needed. If you just want to run the fridge and freezer, some lighting and the TV then fine but on a hot night when the powers out I can see a car powering an AC system for a few hours before it runs out then someone complaining bitterly the next morning when they can’t get to the Coffee Shop for their morning Latte and smashed avo.

First world problem I guess for those that can afford it - that subject alone is worth a post of its own as the poor will get left behind and cop an unfair share of the **** sandwich like always…


That would depend on how much power you use at home - we use under 12kWh per day for a family of 5. So, even a Nissan Leaf would give us a couple of days, even presuming that our solar panels weren't working.

In case you're wondering - we did a big green reno about 10 years ago - double-glazed all windows, bulk and foil insulation in roofs, walls and floors, all lighting is LED and we added a new solar passive kitchen and living room with concrete flooring for thermal mass, etc etc. The new part of the house has never needed AC. Whole house charged rain-water system as well.

[Arapiles]

And on another note.

Didn't the Qld Govt just approve another coal mine,or an extension to existing?

The state will be broke,well it is anyway,i mean, more broke if we dont keep mining coal?

Wind farms,i was reading about the loss of birds and bats,need to dig out the article.

The first survey on animals killed was done by researchers,then they used sniffer dogs.
The dogs found something like 90% more peices of birds and bats,in the same area,hit by the blades,so they are pretty devastating to the wildlife.
And the ones in the sea will no doubt probably upset the birds that migrate thousands of Km's a year.[bigsad]

EDIT found it.Are Wind Turbines a Danger to Wildlife? Ask the Dogs. - The Atlantic (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/07/bat-dogs-wind-turbines/619482/)

Seems in the whole scheme of things,windfarms are no where near as bad on wildlife compared with other changes we humans make.[bigsad]


Yes, unfortunately the best areas for wind power are also the areas with constant wind that migrating birds use They do need to work out a way of not killing migrating birds.

[goingbush]

Yes, unfortunately the best areas for wind power are also the areas with constant wind that migrating birds use They do need to work out a way of not killing migrating birds.

Migrating birds fly between 500m and 2000m , I'm fairly sure wind turbines are not that high .

[akelly]

"the world doesn't have enough electricity for everyone to switch to battery EVs"

I might die from this. This might be the internet comment that finally kills me.

[Arapiles]

Migrating birds fly between 500m and 2000m , I'm fairly sure wind turbines are not that high .


No, many birds (and bats) don't migrate at those heights, and it's actually a real issue: I advised on a particular wind farm in Europe which was on a migration route and the danger that it posed to birds was a serious concern.

This is the result of a very quick google:


BirdLife Data Zone (http://datazone.birdlife.org/wind-turbines-can-cause-significant-deaths-in-bird-species)

BirdLife Data Zone (http://datazone.birdlife.org/offshore-wind-farms-are-impacting-seabirds-and-migrating-passerines)

[Homestar]

That would depend on how much power you use at home - we use under 12kWh per day for a family of 5. So, even a Nissan Leaf would give us a couple of days, even presuming that our solar panels weren't working.

In case you're wondering - we did a big green reno about 10 years ago - double-glazed all windows, bulk and foil insulation in roofs, walls and floors, all lighting is LED and we added a new solar passive kitchen and living room with concrete flooring for thermal mass, etc etc. The new part of the house has never needed AC. Whole house charged rain-water system as well.

That’s great and they’ll be plenty of case like this, but there’ll also be plenty of cases opposite to this I think.

And you kind of proved my point about the haves and have nots with your post as well - not having a go at that, I’m not in the latter category myself and I’ve been trying to do similar at our house - to the point we have cut our heating bill by around 80% this Winter - we only use the heater for one quick warm up of the house on a cold night and that’s it - most nights we don’t even have it on at all, but all of this talk about EV’s and how to power them, batteries, solar etc is the domain of the well off, no Joe Blogs living from one pay to the next. They will be the ones that hurt the most from this rapid rush to change and the overall monumental cost that goes with it.

[akelly]

there's no 'rapid rush to change' this is the sort of thing deniers come up with as a counterargument to any change. Decarbonising the grid is essential for continued human existence and it has the bonus of making life better for everyone from the richest to the poorest.

[akelly]

No, many birds (and bats) don't migrate at those heights, and it's actually a real issue: I advised on a particular wind farm in Europe which was on a migration route and the danger that it posed to birds was a serious concern.


Do you have similar concerns about tall buildings and large trees?

What was your role on the wind farm project?

[goingbush]

That’s great and they’ll be plenty of case like this, but there’ll also be plenty of cases opposite to this I think.

And you kind of proved my point about the haves and have nots with your post as well - not having a go at that, I’m not in the latter category myself and I’ve been trying to do similar at our house - to the point we have cut our heating bill by around 80% this Winter - we only use the heater for one quick warm up of the house on a cold night and that’s it - most nights we don’t even have it on at all, but all of this talk about EV’s and how to power them, batteries, solar etc is the domain of the well off, no Joe Blogs living from one pay to the next. They will be the ones that hurt the most from this rapid rush to change and the overall monumental cost that goes with it.



Daily 12kwh in my dreams , If only I could delete the bloody swimming pool , Even during winter the pump runs 2 hours a day, Ive just had the smart idea to have it run at night so it does not reduce our solar feed in , We get about $0.70 FIT & buy at about $0.23

In this bill cycle we have only had 2 sunny days & its been freezing so have heaters on in the house.

Usage high on Sept 1 because I put 18kwh into the Landy , (but as you can see that's a lot cheaper than petrol) Usually charge once every 4-5 days. Obviously charge at night .

180719 180720

Im not sure about the 'haves and have nots' argument. Check out Toorak or Vaclause on google earth Lowest take up of solar panels compared to less well off areas. They don't give a ****e about energy prices , yet are a high consumer of Teslas (and LandRovers too)

[NavyDiver]

Daily 12kwh in my dreams , If only I could delete the bloody swimming pool , Even during winter the pump runs 2 hours a day, Ive just had the smart idea to have it run at night so it does not reduce our solar feed in , We get about $0.70 FIT & buy at about $0.23

In this bill cycle we have only had 2 sunny days & its been freezing so have heaters on in the house.

Usage high on Sept 1 because I put 18kwh into the Landy , (but as you can see that's a lot cheaper than petrol) Usually charge once every 4-5 days. Obviously charge at night .

180719 180720

Im not sure about the 'haves and have nots' argument. Check out Toorak or Vaclause on google earth Lowest take up of solar panels compared to less well off areas. They don't give a ****e about energy prices , yet are a high consumer of Teslas (and LandRovers too)
Not wrong about the pretty dirt and dust free Landrover/Rangrovers know as Toorak Tractors

I use a lot above avg power I guess with work 20 to 40kWh per day and home not that far behind - no gas- The rotten vaccine fridges get opened a lot recently for a reason or two some might know about :) My overflow vaccine fridge is at home.

Disco is in to Ritta for a service on Thursday. Love them - I know I have seen them a lot less and spent a LOT less over the last 25000 ev km traveled.

[NavyDiver]

I must be looking at this wrong, but if you use your EV as battery storage for the house, then should the power go out for more than a few minutes (say a tree over a line and 6 to 8 hours off supply) then unless you’re very aware of your power usage that car isn’t going to go very far the next day if needed. If you just want to run the fridge and freezer, some lighting and the TV then fine but on a hot night when the powers out I can see a car powering an AC system for a few hours before it runs out then someone complaining bitterly the next morning when they can’t get to the Coffee Shop for their morning Latte and smashed avo.

First world problem I guess for those that can afford it - that subject alone is worth a post of its own as the poor will get left behind and cop an unfair share of the **** sandwich like always…

May be. I did forget to add charge last Thursday so my disco when for a quick run [biggrin]

Victron multiplus inverters give me email warning for every fault, grid failure and grid restore at work. It is also has a lot of configuration options on when, where and what to do. The goodwe hybrid I had before the Victrons could do a lot as well. I can set how much to take from the batteries and how much/when to charge them and this can and does change if the Grid is off of course.

158 GIGA battery factories in EU, China, Korea and the US should make it very interesting to watch.

Post in Nuclear thread re California. Its government action 25 years ago saw Solar panel prices plummet all over the world (https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/evolution-of-solar-pv-module-cost-by-data-source-1970-2020). Batteries will take a similar trajectory and similar improvement path "Swanson's law" is about right I think. The Swanson Effect or Swanson's Law is named after Richard Swanson who founded the American solar-cell manufacturer SunPower.

He did have a vested interest of course. [thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

there's no 'rapid rush to change' this is the sort of thing deniers come up with as a counterargument to any change. Decarbonising the grid is essential for continued human existence and it has the bonus of making life better for everyone from the richest to the poorest.

Telling your population that they can't buy an ICE powered vehicle in 13 year (as has happened in California) when there isn't a viable alternative or the power to make battery EV's workable for most of the population at an affordable price seems pretty rapid to me - 2009 wasn't that long ago, and 2035 will come up pretty quickly when there is only a fraction of a percent of the infrastructure that will be required and no way of getting to what is needed in the forecast period.

And why is it that as soon as I point out issues that will arise (From experience, not by being a keyboard warrior and looking at Faceplant articles), I get these sort of comments 'Denier' and 'EV Hater' - I AM NEITHER OF THESE THINGS and I resent the implication to be honest so if you think I'm on my high horse, I wish all the one eyed EV lovers that won't even accept the discussion about the issues that are arising from them would get off theirs as well - IMO this group are worse that the 'deniers' as you call them.

I thought the discussion here could be had without name calling but that doesn't seem to be the case unfortunately.

I'm also all ears for you to tell me how we can decarbonise the grid within the next 25 years as well - because if you know how you'll have solved all the worlds problems. Do we need to? Absolutely - can we in the timeframes being talked about - not a chance.

[BreakingBad]

So you have to buy an electric car within a few years but you’re advised not to charge it at high demand times. Anyone else see an issue here?



No issue. Just get a big generator to charge your car during peak times. [bigsmile]

[RANDLOVER]

Telling your population that they can't buy an ICE powered vehicle in 13 year (as has happened in California) when there isn't a viable alternative or the power to make battery EV's workable for most of the population at an affordable price seems pretty rapid to me - 2009 wasn't that long ago, and 2035 will come up pretty quickly when there is only a fraction of a percent of the infrastructure that will be required and no way of getting to what is needed in the forecast period.

And why is it that as soon as I point out issues that will arise (From experience, not by being a keyboard warrior and looking at Faceplant articles), I get these sort of comments 'Denier' and 'EV Hater' - I AM NEITHER OF THESE THINGS and I resent the implication to be honest so if you think I'm on my high horse, I wish all the one eyed EV lovers that won't even accept the discussion about the issues that are arising from them would get off theirs as well - IMO this group are worse that the 'deniers' as you call them.

I thought the discussion here could be had without name calling but that doesn't seem to be the case unfortunately.

I'm also all ears for you to tell me how we can decarbonise the grid within the next 25 years as well - because if you know how you'll have solved all the worlds problems. Do we need to? Absolutely - can we in the timeframes being talked about - not a chance.

I think the ban is on "New ICE" vehicles in California and we have to start somewhere, CA. has always been a leader see CAFE fuel efficiency standard which I like to think of as CA(lifornia)Fuel Efficiency standard which a lot of US states and even countries later followed, these things take longer than people think, to wit Aus. doesn't even have a fuel efficiency standard yet.

In WWII even Winston Churchill thought Britain might be invaded hence his "we shall fight them on the beaches" speech, but 5 years later they had won, and we have 25 years.

[NavyDiver]

I think the ban is on "New ICE" vehicles in California and we have to start somewhere, CA. has always been a leader see CAFE fuel efficiency standard which I like to think of as CA(lifornia)Fuel Efficiency standard which a lot of US states and even countries later followed, these things take longer than people think, to wit Aus. doesn't even have a fuel efficiency standard yet.

In WWII even Winston Churchill thought Britain might be invaded hence his "we shall fight them on the beaches" speech, but 5 years later they had won, and we have 25 years.
This pom is on the money I think. https://twitter.com/SquillMama/status/1566084497833168898't=6i4oPk_3jPBPkUEdHen5jw&s=07&fbclid=IwAR0ODMYvYQFf0v0O9YJnBTaMinqek7e3GFm1TpEb0 ZSS3nebLuQnSJsK2F0
Warning he is grumpy and unhappy about the very large power price rises!!! Swearing...
prediction of a UK revolution and riots[bigwhistle]


So many places in this discussion are interesting. Anyone assuming we can burn coal for ever or even for much longer and not impact on all of us is missing the boat. Happily I am fairly. We have been mislead that wind and solar are enough with out other real options by some hopeful but not realistic people and sadly that has deflected from a really urgent need to start the changes required that will work for all of us. Our choices are just that. the Options required to give everyone more appropriate choice is needed not beating any one up for our existing limited options.

Very very glad we live here and not in the EU/UK/Russia.... Japan is a big question as well as is China and India.

Canberra's choice to ban ICE and allow EV sales only from 2035 might be a bit funny as you can drive to NSW in a hour or less of course. We need options before that is really possible.

Noted a few million funding for Hydrogen stations on the Hume Highway "This joint initiative of the Victorian and New South Wales governments supports the development of at least 4 refuelling stations along the Hume Highway and will support approximately 25 hydrogen-powered long-haul heavy freight vehicles to adopt zero-emission technology, such as fuel cells." is still open if your keen on that. [bigwhistle] Just 25 trucks!!! Very slow start.

I have to service the Disco on Thursday. Drop it off and run home under my own steam. EV charging planned in the morning before the run is right beside a EV racing team at a UNI. Have to have look at EV racing. That is were many safety things like ABS and stability control developed of course.

[101RRS]

Canberra's choice to ban ICE and allow EV sales only from 2035 might be a bit funny as you can drive to NSW in a hour or less of course. We need options before that is really possible.



I suspect they will put in legislation to prevent ICE vehicles purchased in other jurisdictions after the cutoff date being registered in the ACT. Not an issue if you can legally have another state address but not if you live in the ACT.

I suspect when we get closer to the date there will be a softening of the rules - and removal if the current coalition government is voted out and the liberal coalition gets in - not likely in the foreseeable future though.

[scarry]

[QUOTE=101RRS;3162217

I suspect when we get closer to the date there will be a softening of the rules - and removal if the current coalition government is voted out and the liberal coalition gets in - not likely in the foreseeable future though.[/QUOTE]

No doubt one of the many backflips that are going to happen with all these EV "promises",and time lines,all over the world.

[goingbush]

No legislation is needed to stop people buying new ICE cars in Australia.

we don't make cars anymore , we only import them. Other countries will only be making Electric cars , so we don't get a choice.

The options are , walk , buy an EV , pay through your nose to fuel your old ICE, or convert your old ICE to EV (latter is best option of all IMO) .
it does not take any more power to run an EV than a couple of bar heaters or an air conditioner , And solar more than covers typical use. I don't see any problem.

[Arapiles]

Do you have similar concerns about tall buildings and large trees?

No, because trees and tall buildings don't have large rotating blades.

[Arapiles]

That’s great and they’ll be plenty of case like this, but there’ll also be plenty of cases opposite to this I think.

And you kind of proved my point about the haves and have nots with your post as well - not having a go at that, I’m not in the latter category myself and I’ve been trying to do similar at our house - to the point we have cut our heating bill by around 80% this Winter - we only use the heater for one quick warm up of the house on a cold night and that’s it - most nights we don’t even have it on at all, but all of this talk about EV’s and how to power them, batteries, solar etc is the domain of the well off, no Joe Blogs living from one pay to the next. They will be the ones that hurt the most from this rapid rush to change and the overall monumental cost that goes with it.


Some time ago one of the arguments against solar rebates was that it was middle-class welfare. And then a study showed that the uptake of solar panels was highest amongst working class people, not the middle classes.

The truth is that the biggest change we ever saw was the first one we made, and that was putting R3.5 batts in our roof-space, and that cost bugger-all.

Edit: and I've not put in batteries yet because they're still too expensive. From a pure back-up perspective it's still way cheaper to install an island switch and run the fridge and some lights off my existing Honda generator, and I might in total use 50 litres of petrol over a couple of days. But a couple of years ago, on one very hot night that the power went off during a heatwave, we all slept comfortably on the concrete floor in the living room with just a battery powered fan circulating the air. If the basic design is right then you don't need a lot of expensive systems.

[Homestar]

I think the ban is on "New ICE" vehicles in California and we have to start somewhere, CA. has always been a leader see CAFE fuel efficiency standard which I like to think of as CA(lifornia)Fuel Efficiency standard which a lot of US states and even countries later followed, these things take longer than people think, to wit Aus. doesn't even have a fuel efficiency standard yet.

In WWII even Winston Churchill thought Britain might be invaded hence his "we shall fight them on the beaches" speech, but 5 years later they had won, and we have 25 years.

I know it’s new car sales only - but that’s just shy of 2 million vehicles a year in California alone - still a problem that is too large to overcome in 12 years. I think the tech will be headed in a different direction by then though, but it’s short sighted nonsense IMO - based on power supply issues alone.

[Homestar]

No legislation is needed to stop people buying new ICE cars in Australia.

we don't make cars anymore , we only import them. Other countries will only be making Electric cars , so we don't get a choice.

The options are , walk , buy an EV , pay through your nose to fuel your old ICE, or convert your old ICE to EV (latter is best option of all IMO) .
it does not take any more power to run an EV than a couple of bar heaters or an air conditioner , And solar more than covers typical use. I don't see any problem.

Cost - huge problem for most of the population. With interest rates going through the roof I can guarantee family’s won’t be wanting to spend extra on an EV, then batteries and solar at home to charge it - over the lifetime of the vehicle and batteries sticking dinosaur squeezing into a tank each week will still be appealing.

[BradC]

I was at a tall building today with a multi-level basement car park. They found a Tesla plugged into an extension cord to a nearby GPO. The building manager wasn't particularly impressed about the theft of power. They also have a blanket no-charging policy, so not only were they stealing power but deliberately contravening the policy they are made aware of when given access to the car park.

I offered a set of side cutters to cut the plugs off, but was told it was a first offense and they'd just issue a warning. Next time however ...

[Tombie]

I think the ban is on "New ICE" vehicles in California and we have to start somewhere, CA. has always been a leader see CAFE fuel efficiency standard which I like to think of as CA(lifornia)Fuel Efficiency standard which a lot of US states and even countries later followed, these things take longer than people think, to wit Aus. doesn't even have a fuel efficiency standard yet.

In WWII even Winston Churchill thought Britain might be invaded hence his "we shall fight them on the beaches" speech, but 5 years later they had won, and we have 25 years.

Excellent. So if we send enough people on a task likely to result in their certain death, we can have EVs for the remaining survivors?

That’s great news because that many humans removed from the planet will reduce carbon footprint more effectively than other solutions…

(Tic)

[Tombie]

EVs are still niché or feel good vehicles.

Even here in Whyalla - which is essentially an EV island - if you have one it’s never leaving town without serious planning and time…..

One example - owner here purchased a Hyundai EV, one of those little things. Could make it to Pt Augusta and back on a good day (a good day being fully charged and no AC running).

Paid nearly double the price of the ICE version.

It’s “cheaper to run” he touts… except it’s coming up on a few years old. Battery capacity has dropped, value has dropped, his FIT has also dropped.

Now, it still costs less to “fill its tank” however; now it cannot make a round trip to Pt Augusta. It’s stuck as an around town vehicle. It’s trade in value is hopeless, so it’s lost a stupid amount of value.

Owner now has a diesel SUV for any trip outside of town.

How is that green? 2 vehicles, 2 manufacturing processes.
1 will soon need Lithium disposal, the other will likely go 15+ years maintained correctly.


Me, I’ve kept the same vehicle 11 years - in that time I’d normally have been on my 4th vehicle. How’s my Carbon footprint [emoji56]

[NavyDiver]

I was at a tall building today with a multi-level basement car park. They found a Tesla plugged into an extension cord to a nearby GPO. The building manager wasn't particularly impressed about the theft of power. They also have a blanket no-charging policy, so not only were they stealing power but deliberately contravening the policy they are made aware of when given access to the car park.

I offered a set of side cutters to cut the plugs off, but was told it was a first offense and they'd just issue a warning. Next time however ...

Its like that old volvo thing now Brad. I have seem some incredibly selfish EV drivers at public charging places who have all had just one brand[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]


Conversely most are very helpful and up for a chat just like Disco and Deefer drivers- not those Rangie types ! Just kidding[biggrin]

[grey_ghost]

What I don’t like about the EV brigade is the fact that it is being forced onto people.

If an EV is so good, so cheap, and doesn’t have range issues - then shouldn’t they be flying out the door? Why are tax insentives needed if EV’s are so brilliant?

Build a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door?

Yet governments are saying “you aren’t buying these quickly enough so we are going to force you into them”

How far should we go? Talking to someone at work she thinks that we should all be vegans because the beef and dairy industry are huge carbon polluters. In her eyes we should all be forced into becoming vegans. In her eyes it’s not an option - it’s a complete no brainer and should be law.

While we are at it - why not ban TV, radio, movies and streaming services. All waste electricity in the name of entertainment.

Let’s ban alcohol, carbonated drinks, smokes, chips, lollies, cakes - think of the health benefits. Think of the electrity that we be saved!

Let’s ban air conditioning and heaters. Humans should learn to live in our own natural environment. Sure there might be some deaths in the elderly and infirm, but hey - that’s got to help the planet as well!

Let’s ban airline travel - imagine the benefits to the planet!

Let’s ban space exploration and satellites! Think of the energy wasted! Why should we be allowed to pollute space - it’s not ours.

Let’s ban motorsport- even more benefits to the planet!

Let’s get to the root of the problem - ban all humans. None of us should be allowed to have kids and our race should die off. Think about that - within a short timeframe (50 years?) of humans dying off, the planet would soon return to ideal health.

While we are at it - let’s ban all types of sports! Think of the electricity that goes into lighting up a big stadium like the MCG! Think of the electricity used in swimming pools! Ban the lot!

Believe it or not - I get it, the planet is stuffed and we as humans are only making it worse. We have to do something and every little bit counts.

But don’t shove your ideas down my throat because you don’t have the answers. Nobody does. I am excited about the fact that people are trying. That people want to make a different.

Cheers,
GG

[JDNSW]

The problem is the amount of CO2 emissions. It is not the emissions per person, but the total emissions, which is the emissions per person multiplied by number of people.

Putting a lot of effort into reducing emissions per persons while at the same time allowing population to increase unfettered is quite clearly a waste of effort, whether you look at Australia or the world.

To put it bluntly, what the world needs, more than EVs is either a really good pandemic (not the halfhearted one we are in), or another really good war. Failing these, unless the rate of population increase is cut to below zero for a few decades, famine will do the job as food production is reduced by climate change. And remember that the current situation, with risk of famine (on average) is enabled by high use of fossil fuels, from chemical fertilisers, to farm machinery, to shipping.

Fortunately, there are some indications that in some key areas population increase is decreasing, and even becoming negative, or at least signs it will. Two countries specifically are Japan, and China, both with aging populations, and the latter with the legacy of "one child per family".

[Tombie]

The problem is the amount of CO2 emissions. It is not the emissions per person, but the total emissions, which is the emissions per person multiplied by number of people.

Putting a lot of effort into reducing emissions per persons while at the same time allowing population to increase unfettered is quite clearly a waste of effort, whether you look at Australia or the world.

To put it bluntly, what the world needs, more than EVs is either a really good pandemic (not the halfhearted one we are in), or another really good war. Failing these, unless the rate of population increase is cut to below zero for a few decades, famine will do the job as food production is reduced by climate change. And remember that the current situation, with risk of famine (on average) is enabled by high use of fossil fuels, from chemical fertilisers, to farm machinery, to shipping.

Fortunately, there are some indications that in some key areas population increase is decreasing, and even becoming negative, or at least signs it will. Two countries specifically are Japan, and China, both with aging populations, and the latter with the legacy of "one child per family".

Spot on…. [emoji106]

[goingbush]

Thats what UN Agenda 21 was supposed to be all about, depopulate the world. Covid 19 didn't work. Whats left, Either we will eat & pollute ourselves to extinction or Putin will do the job with much less desirable outcome for the planet.
.

[akelly]

good lord I thought this was an EV thread, but its actually "the internet's most insane conspiracy theories about EVs"

[Homestar]

good lord I thought this was an EV thread, but its actually "the internet's most insane conspiracy theories about EVs"

Apart from the Agenda 21 garbage, what others are you eluding too?

[scarry]

Charged EVs | Jeep unveils its first three battery-electric SUVs - Charged EVs (https://chargedevs.com/newswire/jeep-unveils-its-first-three-battery-electric-suvs/?fbclid=IwAR01WCBIkuDKF3YMXwzI5rdowL29ubm04iF82k6f DH_8ZOdZ9XQj_iXTSmQ)

I wonder if the 400Miles range is correct?
That is huge compared to many others.

[Homestar]

Maybe in an Engineers theoretical calculation but with 600hp on tap and something that probably weights well over 3000kg unladen, I would put my money on that being a ‘no’

OEM’s aren’t doing themselves or EV’s any favours by over quoting range - given its the single biggest issue raised when you talk to people about EV’s, having them pull up well short of claims in the real world will make people even more gun shy IMO.

It would probably need something like a 240KWH battery to get that far - around a 3 hour fast charge when you need to top up, or 24 hours in the garage from a home charger.

And even if you thought all the physics would work - do you actually trust Jeep of all people to tell the truth? [emoji6]

[NavyDiver]

Landrover took it off the web site! Happily its still available to see what is coming. NOT YET of course- DOH

It is a prototype Article mentions a BMW IX5 Hydrogen as well

The First Land Rover Defender Equipped With A Hydrogen Fuel Cell System Is Now A Reality (https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/the-first-land-rover-defender-equipped-with-a-hydrogen-fuel-cell-system-is-now-a-reality/)

A FCEV Defender would rock my boat.

Project Zeus- Name is cool I did find it on the Landrover web site. No indications of range of course[bighmmm]

JAGUAR LAND ROVER TO DEVELOP HYDROGEN-POWERED DEFENDER FUEL CELL PROTOTYPE | JLR Corporate Website (https://www.jaguarlandrover.com/news/2021/06/jaguar-land-rover-develop-hydrogen-powered-defender-fuel-cell-prototype)

https://media.jlrms.com/styles/thumbnail_big/s3/2021-06-14/image/64921fec-5ebb-4c3a-b3d9-fcb74b653945/Hydrogen_Graphic_3%20Corporate%20Logo.png?VersionI d=rw31ALhDylL9zg_ww61ejMMDjkOszmAW&h=ae91457e&itok=8eTYF4zt


called a nice L.D. Service place re selling my Disco after seeing this a few days ago. My 2010 is not wanted :) PVT sale time soon.

I appreciate it may be 10 years away before refueling infrastructure is more than one per state in Australia [biggrin] Up and down the Hume freeway is not my plans either as that will have Hydrogen refueling for Trucks and buses in the next year or two I hear. A Toyota Mirai hydrogen fuel-cell car goes went [B]845 miles (KM 1359) once!

The Mira has 3 tank with 5.6kg each. Less pressure than my diving cylinders! Usually 70mPa max 87.5.

A EU company has composite tanks at 3+ times that pressure I think! A Disco, Rangie or Deefer offers a lot more space for tanks[biggrin]

The American price for a Mirai is 50-60k USD$ ( that includes free hydrogen for several years!) 2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power (https://www.toyota.com/mirai/)

The possibilities are turning in to prototypes right now happily. While batteries cannot be big enough to provide long term high speed, Towing and 4Wding FCEV not only can it can be much more powerful than current power in our Discos, Rang Rovers or Defenders and have much longer ranges than our current versions.

Did I mention it will be much cheaper to service them[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

Anglo America news

"Anglo American plc, one of AP Ventures’ limited partners, unveiled a prototype of the world’s largest hydrogen-powered mine haul truck designed to operate in everyday mining conditions at its Mogalakwena precious metals mine in South Africa. The 2MW hydrogen-battery hybrid truck, generating more power than its diesel predecessor; is part of Anglo American’s nuGen™ Zero Emission Haulage Solution. nuGen™ is an end-to-end integrated green hydrogen production, fuelling and haulage system for mine sites developed by the Company. The truck marks a significant step towards decarbonising and achieving sustainable mining operations both in South Africa and globally. Anglo American plans to replace the Company’s 40 diesel-powered fleet with green hydrogen systems, reducing emissions and ensuring that eight of the Company’s 27 mines reach carbon neutrality by 2030. "

BHP news


BHP, Caterpillar and Finning announced today an agreement to replace BHP’s entire haul truck fleet at the Escondida mine, the world's largest copper producer, located in the Antofagasta Region, northern Chile.

This agreement is part of the strategic equipment renewal process developed by Escondida. The new Caterpillar 798 AC electric drive trucks will feature technology that delivers significant improvements in material-moving capacity, efficiency, reliability, and safety and generate a positive impact in key initiatives for the future, such as decarbonization, diversity and inclusion, autonomous technologies, and the development of local capabilities.

Caterpillar 798 AC Weight: 246.56t – Standard tyres: 59/80 R63 – Dump capacity: 187.2m³ – Net load: 372t – Transport length: 15.72m – Transport width: 9.24m

Interesting CAT BHP seem BEV and Anglo is FCEV. Cannot see the details of the battery weight on the Cat BHP trucks. I suspect they are very very heavy!

[PhilipA]

On the previous page ther eis a cutaway which purports to be how a Hydrogen vehicle works.
However it does not appear to be real world,
Here is a cutaway of a Toyota Mirai 2021.

180840
You will see that the Hydrogen tanks take up a lot more space than implied by the generic cutaway.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

On the previous page ther eis a cutaway which purports to be how a Hydrogen vehicle works.
However it does not appear to be real world,
Here is a cutaway of a Toyota Mirai 2021.

180840
You will see that the Hydrogen tanks take up a lot more space than implied by the generic cutaway.
Regards PhilipA

Not excited by the Mirai myself Phillip. The technology is has the possibility. I think Probability for large heavy types. My money is where my mouth in a few business in the hydrogen sector so admit bias.

I fully admit to getting on the ground to look under the only Mirai I have seen when charging my car at RACV Torquay nice fast charging spot for my Chemotherpy runs.
I could not see the tanks. They are apparently bullet proof. I always think Bullet Proof is very dependent on the calibrate myself [biggrin]Interesting I did not note any bumps or lumps on the floor of the car either.

My Diving cylinder is not nearly as high tech and I would be scared to test the bullet theory on compressed air [thumbsupbig]

HYDROGEN STORAGE Storage Method
Carbon fiber reinforced high-pressure tanks (2)
Type Type-4 Normal Operational Pressure 70 MPa (70 bar or 10,000 psi)
Storage Capacity Approximately 5kg Internal Volume 122.4 L (front tank: 60.0L / rear tank: 62.4L)
Refueling Time About 5 minutes
Material Inner layer: polymer liner; middle layer: carbon fiber-reinforced polymer; surface layer: fiberglass (https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiE0ObPr5H6AhXxBrcAHaYKBfMQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftoyota-cms-media.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F09%2F2019_Mirai_Product _Information.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2JY2kkFn-NN7v03dVjKuJ6)

[goingbush]

Landy with 46kva genest owned by Geoff Holloway, now theres an idea, might come in handy for numpties in the mountains who run out of battery.



180857

[BradC]

My Diving cylinder is not nearly as high tech and I would be scared to test the bullet theory on compressed air [thumbsupbig]

Having seen the remains of the cylinder, the room and photos of the remains of the operator when a diving cylinder went off, you'd be right to be scared.

[NavyDiver]

Having seen the remains of the cylinder, the room and photos of the remains of the operator when a diving cylinder went off, you'd be right to be scared.

1000s of refills almost always in a concrete trough Brad. The one that went bang for me was sadly on a ship not in that type of safe set up. I did put a dent or two in the steel of my Dive Store and get a ringing in my ears for a week or two[biggrin]

[cripesamighty]

One of the guys at my local dive shop had a mate of his unluckily lose a leg from a cylinder exploding whilst in the trough filled with water. He told me there is a batch of cylinders from a certain year range that are very prone to going bang as they get older, and they take them out of circulation as soon as they see them come through the store.

[PhilipA]

I have now seen quite a few videos of USA vloggers who have towed with EVs and found range reduced by more than 50%
here is an interesting video of Hoovie with his brand new Ford Lightning attempting to tow .
(1) Towing with my Ford Lightning EV Pickup was a TOTAL DISASTER! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nS0Fdayj8Y)

Regards PhilipA

[johnp38]

Well fossil fuel economy does the same though not that much, my td5 does around 12/100 around town and did 16/100 towing the furniture trailer to melbourne and back.

Maybe caravans will come with their own battery in future to augment the vehicle ?

[Homestar]

I have now seen quite a few videos of USA vloggers who have towed with EVs and found range reduced by more than 50%
here is an interesting video of Hoovie with his brand new Ford Lightning attempting to tow .
(1) Towing with my Ford Lightning EV Pickup was a TOTAL DISASTER! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nS0Fdayj8Y)

Regards PhilipA

I’ve posted the math somewhere else about this - if he’d been able to use a calculator and Google he’d have worked out those distances were correct before starting out.

Edit - was in the 70,000 orders for the lightning thread here in Alternate energies - I’d post a link but it seems my phone won’t let me for some reason.

[DiscoMick]

A 50% loss of range when towing seems about right.
For a work truck like a Lightning, if it was towing a trailer with tools, that could still leave a range of maybe 250 ks, which should be plenty in the suburbs, particularly as power is available at most work sites for a recharge.

Important issue is what happens with EV owners who live in apartments, who total more than 2 million in Oz and are often poorer than those who can afford houses.
Urban consolidation and rising housing costs mean more people will live in apartments in the future.
The Feds and states have agreed that from October 2023 all new apartment buildings must be wired for EVs, so that's good.
What about existing buildings? Will the states make it mandatory for body corporates to rewire them?
It seems to be a bit of a mess at the moment. Leaving it voluntary isn't working.
Seems likely a deadline will have to be set.
Most EVs can recharge off normal power points, but wiring and connections to the street may need upgrading because of the extra demand.
Would also be smart to cover the roof in solar panels and install batteries to save money for all residents.

The EV 'social equity' dilemma that may put apartment residents off electric cars
The EV '''social equity''' dilemma that may put apartment residents off electric cars - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-27/ev-apartment-electric-car-barriers-costs-installation-tesla/101473158)

[DiscoMick]

Also interesting to see Rex Airline trialling electric engines supported by hydrogen in its Saab 34 seat aircraft for short routes of up to an hour.
Rex says operating costs would be halved, tickets could be cheaper and marginal routes could become more viable.
Lots of stories around about this. Just Google it.

[PhilipA]

Important issue is what happens with EV owners who live in apartments, who total more than 2 million in Oz and are often poorer than those who can afford houses.
I read recently that an electrician did an analysis of the Melbourne Docklands development as he had been asked to test the viability of EV charging points.
He found that the electrical supply was totally inadequate and that not only that the whole electrical infrastructure of that part of Melbourne would have to be upgraded at mind boggling cost.
It's not only the building that has to be considered but the whole sub station district.
Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Mick, I understand what you’re saying regarding get to work sites etc, and then charge up. However, standard charge points only put very limited capacity back - like 10hrs required to top back up.

I also would see it as completely unfair to a person having a project constructed to be expect to foot the “fuel” bill for a dozen tradies.

Now expand that to have each tradie wanting to top his battery off and most sites couldn’t sustain the power feed.

In context here - a tradie can do 300-400km in a day travelling between job sites. Currently not a viable alternative unfortunately.

[Homestar]

This is interesting - Aussie Toyota HiLux EV plan confirmed - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/aussie-toyota-hilux-ev-plan-confirmed-137628/?fbclid=IwAR02dPPBVOR2ft-FO8UqekRlxa4VKzkyXsxEulWs_lCousjCtKOngbsc91s)

They seem to be on the money with range as well - assuming the empty ute weighs around 3,000Kg with its 88KWH battery, 300KM is about right.

Might zap them an email and see what it would cost to repower my company Hilux - it's due for replacement - and 300KM would do me 99% of the time - the other 1% I can take one of the ICE vehicles we have at work.

I can charge it at work from the 20KW rooftop solar as well, so wouldn't cost me anything at home - and it gets parked on the street so no way to charge it there anyway.

[NavyDiver]

This is interesting - Aussie Toyota HiLux EV plan confirmed - carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/aussie-toyota-hilux-ev-plan-confirmed-137628/?fbclid=IwAR02dPPBVOR2ft-FO8UqekRlxa4VKzkyXsxEulWs_lCousjCtKOngbsc91s)

They seem to be on the money with range as well - assuming the empty ute weighs around 3,000Kg with its 88KWH battery, 300KM is about right.

Might zap them an email and see what it would cost to repower my company Hilux - it's due for replacement - and 300KM would do me 99% of the time - the other 1% I can take one of the ICE vehicles we have at work.

I can charge it at work from the 20KW rooftop solar as well, so wouldn't cost me anything at home - and it gets parked on the street so no way to charge it there anyway.

300km is a bit light for me. The race to get the EV utes in to Australia looks like going to a Chinese company. 2023/2024 looks realistic for some options. 2025 for Solid state battery or FCEV options which will allow towing and very quick recharge/refueling is my guess.

[NavyDiver]

Mick, I understand what you’re saying regarding get to work sites etc, and then charge up. However, standard charge points only put very limited capacity back - like 10hrs required to top back up.

I also would see it as completely unfair to a person having a project constructed to be expect to foot the “fuel” bill for a dozen tradies.

Now expand that to have each tradie wanting to top his battery off and most sites couldn’t sustain the power feed.

In context here - a tradie can do 300-400km in a day travelling between job sites. Currently not a viable alternative unfortunately.

I would bet the ATO FBT (https://www.ato.gov.au/General/fringe-benefits-tax-(fbt)/) would get involved in employer charging my car at work[bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

300km is a bit light for me. The race to get the EV utes in to Australia looks like going to a Chinese company. 2023/2024 looks realistic for some options. 2025 for Solid state battery or FCEV options which will allow towing and very quick recharge/refueling is my guess.

My round trip is 80KM each day and the vehicle sits in a parking bay for 10 hours until I go home. Weekend use is fairly light as we take SWMBO Hybrid longer distances as it's more comfy. The odd towing trip or site inspection to the further reaches of the State would require a different vehicle is all.

[Homestar]

Just been working through the price. Based on an 88KWH battery pack, conversion, engineering etc we can't see how the price will be under $60 to $70K for this, so not viable - we'll wait until Toyota release a factory version.

[scarry]

I read recently that an electrician did an analysis of the Melbourne Docklands development as he had been asked to test the viability of EV charging points.
He found that the electrical supply was totally inadequate and that not only that the whole electrical infrastructure of that part of Melbourne would have to be upgraded at mind boggling cost.
It's not only the building that has to be considered but the whole sub station district.
Regards PhilipA

No surprise there,some have no idea how much power Ev's use to charge.

Oh,just change the legislation to make body corporates have to supply the charging points in existing unit blocks.
Its going to be a very game Govt to bring in something like that.
Imagine doing a block of 200 to 300 units. [bigsad][biggrin]
Particularly a high rise with a very small roof area,so solar would not be suitable.

And work utes,charging them on site,that is never going to happen.
Residential house site,maybe 3 to 6 utes there a day parked on the street.
Leads running everywhere,that is going to go down well with WH&S
Small commercial site,10 to 20 utes parked close by,no hope of getting power to them to charge.
And like Tombie said,who is going to pay for the power,and the upgraded temporary switchboard,etc, for the job?

Hydrogen or hybrids are what is needed,EV for commercial vans,utes,used all day every day,loaded and often dragging trailers,is not going to happen for a while.
In fact quite a few are saying battery tech has actually stalled,there are going to be no real improvements in the near future.
Sure we hear about this and that,but its not going to happen for quite a while if ever.

Mate of mine has a new RRS coming,hopefully sometime in the next year or so.It is a hybrid,battery does around 120Km,uses a 7KW home charger for 6 hours when battery is flat,so thats around 30Amps,if my maths is correct?Maybe Gav would know?
If so,thats a huge amount of power.An extension lead is going to warm up a bit[bighmmm]
It is petrol,the published fuel economy is around 1L/100Km,looks like they fudged the figures somehow[biggrin][biggrin]
Heavy as well,weighs something like 400 to 500KG more than the diesel model,and very expensive.

[NavyDiver]

[QUOTE=scarry;3164590]No surprise there,some have no idea how much power Ev's use to charge.

Oh,just change the legislation to make body corporates have to supply the charging points in existing unit blocks.
Its going to be a very game Govt to bring in something like that.
Imagine doing a block of 200 to 300 units. [bigsad][biggrin]
Particularly a high rise with a very small roof area,so solar would not be suitable.

And work utes,charging them on site,that is never going to happen.
Residential house site,maybe 3 to 6 utes there a day parked on the street.
Leads running everywhere,that is going to go down well with WH&S
Small commercial site,10 to 20 utes parked close by,no hope of getting power to them to charge.
And like Tombie said,who is going to pay for the power,and the upgraded temporary switchboard,etc, for the job?

Hydrogen or hybrids are what is needed,EV for commercial vans,utes,used all day every day,loaded and often dragging trailers,is not going to happen for a while.
In fact quite a few are saying battery tech has actually stalled,there are going to be no real improvements in the near future.
Sure we hear about this and that,but its not going to happen for quite a while if ever.

Mate of mine has a new RRS coming,hopefully sometime in the next year or so.It is a hybrid,battery does around 120Km,uses a 7KW home charger for 6 hours when battery is flat,so thats around 30Amps,if my maths is correct?Maybe Gav would know?
If so,thats a huge amount of power.An extension lead is going to warm up a bit[bighmmm]
It is petrol,the published fuel economy is around 1L/100Km,looks like they fudged the figures somehow[biggrin][biggrin]
Heavy as well,weighs something like 400 to 500KG more than the diesel model,and very expensive.[/QUOt TE]

Find it almost impossible to believe Docklands power supply could not deal with a few three phase or a single phase power point or 100[thumbsupbig]

The fast charge points might be a bit more tricky? there are 8 Chargefox FAST Charging Station Electric vehicle charging station at 167 Tarcombe St Euroa VIC which have a cool little solar PV and battery to store and provide the power not drain the grid there at a rate it could not handle.

The conspiracy theory some put out is clearly biased by a dislike of the technology - It is fair enough to not like the current tech[thumbsupbig] Philip's electrician might need to go back to school

[scarry]

The conspiracy theory some put out is clearly biased by a dislike of the technology - It is fair enough to not like the current tech[thumbsupbig] Philip's electrician might need to go back to school

I dont think its always a dislike for the tech.

Its the reality of how many will be needed,and the power they use.
People want convenience,they dont want to be hanging around waiting hours for a charger to be free,as it is being used.

[Tombie]

I dont think its always a dislike for the tech.

Its the reality of how many will be needed,and the power they use.
People want convenience,they dont want to be hanging around waiting hours for a charger to be free,as it is being used.

Exactly. Local servo has 6 pumps, a quick observation shows about 4 are in use most of the time. Peak periods and holidays it can have a line up the street!

Average fill takes about 5 min.

That’s 11 fills per hour per pump almost!
Now let’s replace with EVs and see how many we would need.

You’ll have to charge here to make it to Port Lincoln, so I’m guessing we’re talking 15-20 high speed chargers so we can turn one over every 20 min or so… (on a quiet day).

Now multiple for docklands…. Yikes!

[Arapiles]

It is petrol, the published fuel economy is around 1L/100Km,looks like they fudged the figures somehow[biggrin][biggrin]


If that's the PHEV, that'll be the first 100km when you get to use up the battery. But the RRS PHEV claims up to 125km on the battery and 7.2l/100km overall, so I wonder how that figure was calculated?

[NavyDiver]

If that's the PHEV, that'll be the first 100km when you get to use up the battery. But the RRS PHEV claims up to 125km on the battery and 7.2l/100km overall, so I wonder how that figure was calculated?

I can help you with that [thumbsupbig] https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/sites/default/files/styles/hero_image/public/migrated/featured/Mark-Twain-lies-damned-lies-statistics.png?itok=SgWp3lZQ


The range and fuel consumption guides are in the same vein of rubbish if ICE and EV[biggrin]

[scarry]

If that's the PHEV, that'll be the first 100km when you get to use up the battery. But the RRS PHEV claims up to 125km on the battery and 7.2l/100km overall, so I wonder how that figure was calculated?

Yes a PHV,510E.

A "claimed" 7.2L/100 isn't far from a "claimed" amount for a diesel same sort of sized vehicle.
But it is a petrol and pretty heavy as well,carting a huge battery around.

But i suppose if you only do short trips,one can just use the battery,no fuel?

If it takes 6 hours to charge using a 7KW charger,when flat,is that 30A,240V?
That is a heap of power.

Where is Gav when we need him?

I wonder how it will go with a car fridge and dual battery set up for camping ?
Maybe just use the car battery with some sort of step down tranny or whatever.

[DiscoMick]

Many EVs can now recharge to 80% in an hour using a fast charger.
Ford's 150 Lightening is equipped to recharge power tools at worksites.
Most utes and vans will soon be available in EV versions, which already are sold overseas.
Tradies already recharge tools at worksites, so that will continue.

Existing buildings will have to be upgraded. All that remains is for states to agree on how long is allowed to do it.

The infrastructure network certainly needs massive upgrading, which is why the federal government is budgeting to spend about $30b on infrastructure upgrades.

Some of that will go into Qld's $62b energy plan announced this week. Three supergrids are planned to link to Brisbane, Gladstone and Cairns.
Coal generation will continue until it is made redundant by pumped hydro, hydrogen, batteries, solar and wind. The Burdekin pumped hydro alone will be bigger than Snowy Hydro. These are massive projects.
Many coal workers will transfer into new jobs in the upgraded system.
Steel will be made using hydrogen and electricity generated by renewable, making it exempt from emissions import duties in major markets overseas.
Interesting also AGL has made a commercial decision to close Victoria's largest coal station 10 years early, under pressure from investors who refuse to fund stranded assets. That's a commercial decision, not government. Investors want renewables.

[Homestar]

Many EVs can now recharge to 80% in an hour using a fast charger.
Ford's 150 Lightening is equipped to recharge power tools at worksites.
Most utes and vans will soon be available in EV versions, which already are sold overseas.
Tradies already recharge tools at worksites, so that will continue.

Existing buildings will have to be upgraded. All that remains is for states to agree on how long is allowed to do it.

The infrastructure network certainly needs massive upgrading, which is why the federal government is budgeting to spend about $30b on infrastructure upgrades.

Some of that will go into Qld's $62b energy plan announced this week. Three supergrids are planned to link to Brisbane, Gladstone and Cairns.
Coal generation will continue until it is made redundant by pumped hydro, hydrogen, batteries, solar and wind. The Burdekin pumped hydro alone will be bigger than Snowy Hydro. These are massive projects.
Many coal workers will transfer into new jobs in the upgraded system.
Steel will be made using hydrogen and electricity generated by renewable, making it exempt from emissions import duties in major markets overseas.
Interesting also AGL has made a commercial decision to close Victoria's largest coal station 10 years early, under pressure from investors who refuse to fund stranded assets. That's a commercial decision, not government. Investors want renewables.

30 Billion won't even begin to scratch the surface for what's needed - this is for the major feeder works for the renewables going in everywhere which is great for getting the power around the eastern seaboard, but will do nothing to get an outlet near an EV where it's needed.

I can just see a 150 lightning owner charging his and his mates tools all day then not having enough power to get home. [bigwhistle][bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

30 Billion won't even begin to scratch the surface for what's needed - this is for the major feeder works for the renewables going in everywhere which is great for getting the power around the eastern seaboard, but will do nothing to get an outlet near an EV where it's needed.

I can just see a 150 lightning owner charging his and his mates tools all day then not having enough power to get home. [bigwhistle][bigrolf]

They must be some BIG TOOLs[thumbsupbig] 150 is "100ish to 140ish kwh" battery size. My biggest tool battery is "2 Pack For 18V Makita Battery Replacement | BL1890B 9000mAh Li-ion Battery"

for my lawn mower. ( My drill ones are smaller and run it fine) The 900mAh are about 162Wh An ant army of them might kill my little MG 42kWh [biggrin]

My sparky and I were chatting about this last week. Noting he is often carrying a lot of batteries like mine at work about. A 150 lightning charge could DC to DC charge 10 to 13 of my 10kWh flow batteries each of which could charge every traddie in sights tools for a week I think. before drained of power and not ready to drive home.

My electrical maths might be off of course.[bigrolf]

[Homestar]

Yeah but remember towing a trailer it will only get from your house to the pub and back on a charge. [emoji56]

I’m being facetious of course but I had a little giggle at the thought. [emoji16]

[scarry]

[bigrolf]

He will also be happy going home,paying for the power to charge the battery in the ute, that all his mates have used[bigrolf]
Its really nothing new,many tradies these days have a dual battery set up in their work utes(Camping utes) and charge cordless drills,but only last resort,if there is not power around for whatever reason.
Although temporary power is usually one of the first things to go onto a building site.

[Arapiles]

Yes a PHV,510E. ...

But i suppose if you only do short trips,one can just use the battery,no fuel?

Yep, you'd probably find that from day to day you'd barely use the engine. For context, the best electric-only range of a PHEV that I'm aware of is the Sorento PHEV, which has a range of 68km. and apparently a lot of people find that's enough for all of their day to day driving, so even if it's only in practice 100km range that'd still mean in practice not using more than a litre or two of fuel.



If it takes 6 hours to charge using a 7KW charger,when flat,is that 30A,240V?
That is a heap of power.

Yes, it's got a 38.2 kW battery - the current cheaper Nissan Leaf has just 39 kW .... so it's almost got more battery than the globally biggest selling dedicated EV. Still, the Leaf gets 270km range from that, not the 125km claimed.

NB, this is the same package that's also in the new Range Rover PHEV.

[Arapiles]

Interesting also AGL has made a commercial decision to close Victoria's largest coal station 10 years early, under pressure from investors who refuse to fund stranded assets. That's a commercial decision, not government. Investors want renewables.

Yep, and that's been accepted in the industry for well over a decade - no-one wants to put money into an asset with a 30 year payback period (with the actual profit coming in the last 5 years) when it will be scrap within 10 years - you'd never get to the repayment phase, and you probably wouldn't even get to break-even.

These decisions aren't being made by greenies, it's hard-headed bankers with spreadsheets.

[Tombie]

Yep, and that's been accepted in the industry for well over a decade - no-one wants to put money into an asset with a 30 year payback period (with the actual profit coming in the last 5 years) when it will be scrap within 10 years - you'd never get to the repayment phase, and you probably wouldn't even get to break-even.

These decisions aren't being made by greenies, it's hard-headed bankers with spreadsheets.

Was that an auto-correct? Should it start with "W" and not "B" ?

[NavyDiver]

First EV ute?


Tradies and all of those people just wanting to “ruin their weekend,” rejoice – an all-electric ute is finally being made available to Australian drivers.
In what is being labelled a “fundamental step-change” in its strategy, SAIC-owned LDV has confirmed it will introduce the eT60 all-electric ute to the Australian market.

"
“In the first half of 2022, 2.4 million EVs were delivered to customers in China, more than double the total annual new car market in Australia,” Chinnappa said."

Link (https://thedriven.io/2022/09/29/australias-first-electric-ute-confirmed-as-ldv-launches-three-evs-at-once/)

Its range will suite some. "It is already on sale in New Zealand (billed as the “EV for the Kiwi” on LDV’s NZ website) for $NZ79,990. Although LDV Australia today has not announced local pricing, a quick conversion suggests pricing may fall around the $A70,000 mark.
That’s about the same as the latest Ford Ranger Wildtrak V6, or Toyota Hilux Rogue."

Pricing might be of interest give it is comparable to wildtrak and a rogue [bigwhistle]

The acknowledged possible 50% hit to range for towing and "
charged from 20-80% in 45 minutes on a DC fast charger, or from 5-100% on an 11kW AC charger in around 9 hours."

A trickle charge at a work site for 8 hours would add at about 2 -3 kWh per hour meaning range recover for a <100km daily round trip is very easy. It would be a few hours off peak with a home wall box.
LDV Australia web site (https://www.ldvautomotive.com.au/?gclid=CjwKCAjwhNWZBhB_EiwAPzlhNmGR8AAAFKn98c8vbm0 ZgbWTfj0gwAtjKtp6SiG05rS5hDqiPmuvEhoCy5IQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

Not for me unless a suitable hydrogen Fuel Cell Generator for my vaccine fridge arrives soon[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Useless for the work we do.

An 11kw charger draws around 46Amps,for 9 hours?
That is going to warm up the standard mains cables at any residence.....Just imagine,we have to charge up the sons EV as well tonight,oh and maybe the wifes car?
Cold showers anyone,and i will order take away,we cant use the cooker.Lights out,head torches it is[biggrin]
All fun and games
And will no doubt be no hope on a standard residential solar system.

And quick charge,will only work at a commercial place,etc,thats if you have time to wait around for an hour or so.

[scarry]

Ok,on topic.....[biggrin]

I wonder what they will think of next?


Doctor Performs The World's First Vasectomy Powered By A Car Battery | IFLScience (https://www.iflscience.com/doctor-performs-the-world-s-first-vasectomy-powered-by-a-car-battery-65546?fbclid=IwAR3WcDOZkVivmlGo0WXMD0inPD5WpoxBF5H 6k-7tcx_S0U0iS78xGb2tSvw)

[NavyDiver]

Useless for the work we do.

An 11kw charger draws around 46Amps,for 9 hours?
That is going to warm up the standard mains cables at any residence.....Just imagine,we have to charge up the sons EV as well tonight,oh and maybe the wifes car?
Cold showers anyone,and i will order take away,we cant use the cooker.Lights out,head torches it is[biggrin]
All fun and games
And will no doubt be no hope on a standard residential solar system.

And quick charge,will only work at a commercial place,etc,thats if you have time to wait around for an hour or so.

Any wall charger over 7kWh is 3 phase I think. That might make a difference to the calculation in the cable warming. Mine is stupidly a single phase which could max out at 7kWh except we throttled it as I have five heat pumps on that sub board which has 3 phase[bighmmm] Stupid me assumed sparky was running it from the main board until he remained me of the sub board he had installed. I could have had a 22 kWh for the same price as I paid for the little one. DOH

[scarry]

Any wall charger over 7kWh is 3 phase I think. That might make a difference to the calculation in the cable warming. Mine is stupidly a single phase which could max out at 7kWh except we throttled it as I have five heat pumps on that sub board which has 3 phase[bighmmm]

Not many houses are 3 phase,but yes 3 phase would be a lot better.
That is an issue for the Rivian,and LDV,and probably many others?

LR are pushing a 7KW charger for the new RRS,charge from home[bighmmm]
I presumed it was single phase.

[PhilipA]

Ever checked out how much they charge to fit 3 Phase?

I think I have heard about 5K a long time ago.
Regards PhilipA

[grey_ghost]

Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of an EV but the infrastructure needed is what worries me.

I live (according to Google Maps) 72km from the Melbourne CBD. You cannot say that is “in the middle of nowhere”.

My house was built on a brand new estate - approximately 17 years ago. We have:

- Underground power (good)
- Mains water (good)

But that’s about where the good stuff ends

- No street lights
- No gas
- No sewage
- No footpaths
- No MAIL delivery
- No green waste bin
- 1 bar of 4G on the mobile (meaning poor mobile reception)
- NBN using copper (14mb down / 4mb up)

But here is the EV slant…

I installed solar panels on the roof about 2 years ago. My solar cannot send into the grid (not that I would make much money on that anyway) because the local infrastructure doesn’t support it…

Let’s say I buy an EV.
5 months of the year I leave home in the dark and get home in the dark.
Last time I checked - my solar doesn’t work at night.
My place of work does not have an EV charger
I do 700km a week (average week)
How do I charge my car?
I can’t charge it at home during the week - unless I install an expensive battery pack.
I can’t charge it at work.
(I work in 4 locations - none of them have an EV charger)
I can’t go a week without charging it (unless you know of a EV that has a 700km range)

What happens if I want to buy a car for my wife as well?

Why should my boss have to install multiple EV chargers?

Remember - I only live 72km from the Melbourne CBD, which is hardly on the Oodnadatta track….

I would love an EV - but at the moment it just doesn’t suit me.

I can’t be the only person with these infrastructure issues? The investment to fix these issues must be huge - who is going to pay for it? I can’t even get my mail delivered!

Personally I would love gas, mail, a green bin and decebr NBN speeds before an EV at this point…

And all the while electricity prices are increasing, with increases of 20+% predicted when they close down the coal power station.

For the time being - I don’t have any choice other than to stick with my trusty Landy’s!

Cheers,
GG

[NavyDiver]

Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of an EV but the infrastructure needed is what worries me.

I live (according to Google Maps) 72km from the Melbourne CBD. You cannot say that is “in the middle of nowhere”.

My house was built on a brand new estate - approximately 17 years ago. We have:

- Underground power (good)
- Mains water (good)

But that’s about where the good stuff ends

- No street lights
- No gas
- No sewage
- No footpaths
- No MAIL delivery
- No green waste bin
- 1 bar of 4G on the mobile (meaning poor mobile reception)
- NBN using copper (14mb down / 4mb up)

But here is the EV slant…

I installed solar panels on the roof about 2 years ago. My solar cannot send into the grid (not that I would make much money on that anyway) because the local infrastructure doesn’t support it…

Let’s say I buy an EV.
5 months of the year I leave home in the dark and get home in the dark.
Last time I checked - my solar doesn’t work at night.
My place of work does not have an EV charger
I do 700km a week (average week)
How do I charge my car?
I can’t charge it at home during the week - unless I install an expensive battery pack.
I can’t charge it at work.
(I work in 4 locations - none of them have an EV charger)
I can’t go a week without charging it (unless you know of a EV that has a 700km range)

What happens if I want to buy a car for my wife as well?

Why should my boss have to install multiple EV chargers?

Remember - I only live 72km from the Melbourne CBD, which is hardly on the Oodnadatta track….

I would love an EV - but at the moment it just doesn’t suit me.

I can’t be the only person with these infrastructure issues? The investment to fix these issues must be huge - who is going to pay for it? I can’t even get my mail delivered!

Personally I would love gas, mail, a green bin and decebr NBN speeds before an EV at this point…

And all the while electricity prices are increasing, with increases of 20+% predicted when they close down the coal power station.

For the time being - I don’t have any choice other than to stick with my trusty Landy’s!

Cheers,
GG

Good post and points. My tight arsed ev might not struggle in your situation IF a normal power point from midnight to 6am was used 2-4 times a week costing about $28 ( 700km @20kWh per 100km @ about $0.20c per kWh off peak charging) A wall plug add 2-3kWh per hour.

Fuel cost for my Disco over 700 km is $200ish. Maintenance cost SHHHHH (EV is almost zero)

The price parity between ICE and EV needed of course and that might be a year or three away yet. [B]Nothing yet can replace our Landrovers[thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

Ever checked out how much they charge to fit 3 Phase?

I think I have heard about 5K a long time ago.
Regards PhilipA

Its not just the charge for new mains,switchboard,etc, at your place,its the infastructure,substations,transformers,etc,etc.

Its a huge amount of work,going to cost Billions,and take decades to do.

By then EV's will probably be old hat,and they will have found something more convenient and suitable.[bighmmm]


This is interesting,if its true.

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants | New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/)

[Homestar]

First EV ute?


Tradies and all of those people just wanting to “ruin their weekend,” rejoice – an all-electric ute is finally being made available to Australian drivers.
In what is being labelled a “fundamental step-change” in its strategy, SAIC-owned LDV has confirmed it will introduce the eT60 all-electric ute to the Australian market.

"
“In the first half of 2022, 2.4 million EVs were delivered to customers in China, more than double the total annual new car market in Australia,” Chinnappa said."

Link (https://thedriven.io/2022/09/29/australias-first-electric-ute-confirmed-as-ldv-launches-three-evs-at-once/)

Its range will suite some. "It is already on sale in New Zealand (billed as the “EV for the Kiwi” on LDV’s NZ website) for $NZ79,990. Although LDV Australia today has not announced local pricing, a quick conversion suggests pricing may fall around the $A70,000 mark.
That’s about the same as the latest Ford Ranger Wildtrak V6, or Toyota Hilux Rogue."

Pricing might be of interest give it is comparable to wildtrak and a rogue [bigwhistle]

The acknowledged possible 50% hit to range for towing and "
charged from 20-80% in 45 minutes on a DC fast charger, or from 5-100% on an 11kW AC charger in around 9 hours."

A trickle charge at a work site for 8 hours would add at about 2 -3 kWh per hour meaning range recover for a <100km daily round trip is very easy. It would be a few hours off peak with a home wall box.
LDV Australia web site (https://www.ldvautomotive.com.au/?gclid=CjwKCAjwhNWZBhB_EiwAPzlhNmGR8AAAFKn98c8vbm0 ZgbWTfj0gwAtjKtp6SiG05rS5hDqiPmuvEhoCy5IQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)

Not for me unless a suitable hydrogen Fuel Cell Generator for my vaccine fridge arrives soon[bigwhistle]







Hands up who’d spend $70K on an LDV rust bucket with depreciation steeper than a cliff face…?
.
.
.
I can only hear crickets….

If someone did have a mental blackout and went and bought one just don’t park it near the ocean, and you may still get warranty on it when it poops its pants.

[4bee]

Not many houses are 3 phase,but yes 3 phase would be a lot better.
That is an issue for the Rivian,and LDV,and probably many others?

LR are pushing a 7KW charger for the new RRS,charge from home[bighmmm]
I presumed it was single phase.



Years back when it was ETSA you had to really, really justify the need for a 3 Ph connection to a Residence (for AC) but today it is SA Power Networks so no idea what the situation is but I doubt it would be an inexpensive operation.

[4bee]

Hands up who’d spend $70K on an LDV rust bucket with depreciation steeper than a cliff face…?
.
.
.
I can only hear crickets….

If someone did have a mental blackout and went and bought one just don’t park it near the ocean, and you may still get warranty on it when it poops its pants.

BLIMEY! I have seen what it has done to Air Cond Condenser Coil Fins.[bigsad]

[NavyDiver]

Hands up who’d spend $70K on an LDV rust bucket with depreciation steeper than a cliff face…?
.
.
.
I can only hear crickets….

If someone did have a mental blackout and went and bought one just don’t park it near the ocean, and you may still get warranty on it when it poops its pants.

Never heard of them before. I found the case DON'T BUY WARNING: Why owning an LDV in Australia is a mistake — Auto Expert by John Cadogan - save thousands on your next new car! (https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/dont-buy-warning-why-owning-an-ldv-in-australia-can-go-wrong)

Note my old LADA ute survived a lot of WA beach driving but DID show a little sign of it [biggrin]

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/51297e5de4b01fa6748bc904/1633325019908-GWTDRGR9OS550R6QPF91/LDV_T60_LUXE_0085.jpg?format=750w
Caption on above was LDV says Do NOT do this [biggrin]

[PhilipA]

Ok I am going to list a website that has SHOCK HORROR one swear word in it.

I will not link it but you should be warned that if you go to it your woke sensibilities may be offended.

It is Cadogan commenting on a recent industry meeting in Perth attended by Lithium battery makers forecasting a great shortfall in Lithium production over the next ten years.

(1) Electric vehicle prices set to soar - here's why. | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYhOOweKDBU)
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

EVs won't suit everyone all the time, but I really think a lot of the objections are exaggerated.
If the range is say 300ks then that's plenty for a 70km trip and return. The money saved by not buying fuel will more than cover the cost of recharging at home, even if it is at night. Plus you still save by running the house on solar during the day.
The $30b I mentioned earlier is federal funding towards upgrading the major East Coast transmission network, including three corridors in Qld and one each in NSW and Victoria.
Cadogan's vids are amusing, but he's playing to an audience to get subscribers, so allow for that.

[JDNSW]

I would very much like to have an EV (or preferably two, to replace my two landrovers). There are a few problems.

1. No mains power here. That means I would need to upgrade my power system to charge the cars. Maybe not more batteries if I only charge in the daytime, but it is an extra cost.

2. To reliably reach the house you need four wheel drive and high ground clearance and reasonably good approach and departure angles.

3. mainly because nobody will deliver here because of the road, need to be able to tow a two tonne trailer round trip to town, 120km plus driving round town.

4. Need at least five seats to carry grandchildren.

5. As far as i am aware,there is nothing on the market in EVs that meet these needs. There are prospects of some, but it is likely that these will be in the realm of $100,000. Bit out of reach on an old age pension. If anyone was prepared to lend the money to me, interest alone could amount to as much as $1,000 a month (as interest rates rise), to which needs to be added a similar amount for depreciation. Added is the cost of upgrading my power.

This compares to my existing vehicles, which were paid for in full over thirty years ago, and are appreciating rather than depreciating (one is probably worth about what i paid for it, the other about twice what i paid for it). While there is a certain amount of maintenance on them, I do it all myself, so it only amounts to filters and oil etc, plus a few other parts from time to time. OK, they use fuel, but i spend on average about $150 - 200 a month for fuel. These days I don't do a lot of driving - mostly a weekly trip to town, driving round the property or to the village once or twice a week, further afield once or twice a year.

[scarry]

EVs won't suit everyone all the time, but I really think a lot of the objections are exaggerated.
If the range is say 300ks then that's plenty for a 70km trip and return. The money saved by not buying fuel will more than cover the cost of recharging at home, even if it is at night. Plus you still save by running the house on solar during the day..

But then factor in the huge cost of an EV,equivalent size and quality, to existing vehicle,and the sums more than likely dont add up.

[4bee]

I would very much like to have an EV (or preferably two, to replace my two landrovers). There are a few problems.

1. No mains power here. That means I would need to upgrade my power system to charge the cars. Maybe not more batteries if I only charge in the daytime, but it is an extra cost.

2. To reliably reach the house you need four wheel drive and high ground clearance and reasonably good approach and departure angles.

3. mainly because nobody will deliver here because of the road, need to be able to tow a two tonne trailer round trip to town, 120km plus driving round town.

4. Need at least five seats to carry grandchildren.

5. As far as i am aware,there is nothing on the market in EVs that meet these needs. There are prospects of some, but it is likely that these will be in the realm of $100,000. Bit out of reach on an old age pension. If anyone was prepared to lend the money to me, interest alone could amount to as much as $1,000 a month (as interest rates rise), to which needs to be added a similar amount for depreciation. Added is the cost of upgrading my power.

This compares to my existing vehicles, which were paid for in full over thirty years ago, and are appreciating rather than depreciating (one is probably worth about what i paid for it, the other about twice what i paid for it). While there is a certain amount of maintenance on them, I do it all myself, so it only amounts to filters and oil etc, plus a few other parts from time to time. OK, they use fuel, but i spend on average about $150 - 200 a month for fuel. These days I don't do a lot of driving - mostly a weekly trip to town, driving round the property or to the village once or twice a week, further afield once or twice a year.


If this link is Kosher you will have a lot more to worry about.

Electric car Australia: EV replacement batteries costing up large sums: Tesla, Nissan, Lexus | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11274013/Electric-car-Australia-EV-replacement-batteries-costing-large-sums-Tesla-Nissan-Lexus.html)

[Arapiles]

This is interesting,if its true.

China is building more than half of the world's new coal power plants | New Scientist (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2317274-china-is-building-more-than-half-of-the-worlds-new-coal-power-plants/)


Apparently, only partly true - the nub of it is that a lot of the planned coal plants in China will either never actually be built or never actually operate.


This issue brief covers three things American observers need to understand about coal in China:





China’s new coal-fired power plants are cleaner than anything operating in the United States.


China’s emissions standards for conventional air pollutants from coal-fired power plants are stricter than the comparable U.S. standards.


Demand for coal-fired power is falling so quickly in China that the nation cannot support its existing fleet. Many of the coal-fired power plants that skeptics point to as evidence against a Chinese energy transformation are actually white elephants that Chinese leaders are already targeting in a wave of forced plant closures.



Everything You Think You Know About Coal in China Is Wrong - Center for American Progress (https://www.americanprogress.org/article/everything-think-know-coal-china-wrong/)

[Tombie]

I would very much like to have an EV (or preferably two, to replace my two landrovers). There are a few problems.

1. No mains power here. That means I would need to upgrade my power system to charge the cars. Maybe not more batteries if I only charge in the daytime, but it is an extra cost.

2. To reliably reach the house you need four wheel drive and high ground clearance and reasonably good approach and departure angles.

3. mainly because nobody will deliver here because of the road, need to be able to tow a two tonne trailer round trip to town, 120km plus driving round town.

4. Need at least five seats to carry grandchildren.

5. As far as i am aware,there is nothing on the market in EVs that meet these needs. There are prospects of some, but it is likely that these will be in the realm of $100,000. Bit out of reach on an old age pension. If anyone was prepared to lend the money to me, interest alone could amount to as much as $1,000 a month (as interest rates rise), to which needs to be added a similar amount for depreciation. Added is the cost of upgrading my power.

This compares to my existing vehicles, which were paid for in full over thirty years ago, and are appreciating rather than depreciating (one is probably worth about what i paid for it, the other about twice what i paid for it). While there is a certain amount of maintenance on them, I do it all myself, so it only amounts to filters and oil etc, plus a few other parts from time to time. OK, they use fuel, but i spend on average about $150 - 200 a month for fuel. These days I don't do a lot of driving - mostly a weekly trip to town, driving round the property or to the village once or twice a week, further afield once or twice a year.

John

My first question would be, and it’s one I find myself asking, WHY?

Why would you like an EV?

[ramblingboy42]

its ok to try and justify an 80% recharge capacity in one hour as ok.....but what do you do during that hour? to even try to compare it to refuelling an ice vehicle is crazy....I mean would you stand there for an hour with a fuel nozzle in your hand?

Gav's question is valid, why do you really want an ev?

[ramblingboy42]

I just thought I'd put another angle in here...

My bro-in-law is a manager for Real Auto in the Carribean , based on St Marrtens (you know the place where you see people hanging on the fence in the jet blast of big aeroplanes)and his boss who owns dealerships throughout the islands has no intention of introducing EVs to his multiple ICE vehicle franchises even though in total the vehicle sales are probably higher than in Australia.(not fact checked)

He understands the logistics and just isn't interested in dealing with it , even though most vehicles sold through his dealerships are way up spec and well down priced compared to Australia , eg...top spec L300 is $US97k and my bil just got given a bells and whistles Fortuna cost in $us40's in a spec that wont ever be available in Australia.

We know the Nassifs personally and they run businesses all over the Carribean but aren't touching EV's until they have no choice but to. Places like St Bartz will be first simply because of the wealth that partys on that island.

So Australia dives headfirst into a huge logistical nightmare because a few thousand people want to drive EV's and believe it will save the planet........energy is neither created nor destroyed but just moves from one form to another......the "pollution footprint" remains basically the same for as long as you use energy in production.

wear condoms if you want to reduce the problem.

[NavyDiver]

If this link is Kosher you will have a lot more to worry about.

Electric car Australia: EV replacement batteries costing up large sums: Tesla, Nissan, Lexus | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11274013/Electric-car-Australia-EV-replacement-batteries-costing-large-sums-Tesla-Nissan-Lexus.html)

Suspect its a bit out of date recycled information Des

Adding batteries are mostly made with replaceable/recyclable cells [thumbsupbig]

How much does it cost to replace the batteries in electric vehicles? (https://thedriven.io/2021/07/23/how-much-are-replacement-batteries-for-electric-vehicles-in-australia/)

"as failed battery packs were returned to the factory, it was found many of these packs had only a couple of faulty cells with the remainder being fine. As a result, in countries with higher numbers of early Leaf sales (i.e. not here in Australia) – battery recycle schemes have begun with the disassembly and repackaging of cells into guaranteed remanufactured battery packs. In Japan, rebuilt packs for a ZE0 or AZEO Leaf sell for around US$2900 (around Au$4000).
In addition, as these cars fall off the road due to accidents – a ready supply of second-hand batteries are becoming available to private businesses to experiment on. As a result, some have started offering aftermarket replacement (in some cases upgraded) battery packs*.

"

Interestingly charged DC yesterday and then tossed it on at home with all the sunshine. 251 volts at the ends was just what I got when it was new! over 26000km now. It is still ****e for long range high speed unless I have access to a fast charger and 40 minutes to charge it on my usual run return from Melbourne to Port Fairy. I do have access now and more are being added quickly. Not suggesting its perfect by a long shot- Mine is cheap and quirky :)

[PhilipA]

Adding batteries are mostly made with replaceable/recyclable cells I have a real problem reconciling this quote with what I have experienced with Lithium batteries.After all these batteries are the same as in your phone or laptop. The batteries lose capacity over usage. Even Tesla only guarantees 80% over 8 years. In many cases the life of the batteries is much worse eg Nissan Leaf. The key seems to be the theramal management. So any recovered battery pack which is made of recycled batteries will have at least some degradation and maybe a lot of degradation. In addition if one cell goes out then the lot go out and once again the battery has to be repaired or replaced. It is a pretty blythe statement that replacement of batteries is cheaper than a new set as it is a "pig in a Poke" type problem. Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

But have you saved $30,000 in fuel yet? [emoji41]
So far your emissions on the quirky car exceed your savings.

How long do you predict the thing is going to last?

Just speaking with a friend in the UK yesterday. His monthly power bill is now £498 - yes month, yes Pounds!
Driven by lack of power generation.

We’re in big trouble soon!

[Tombie]

I have a real problem reconciling this quote with what I have experienced with Lithium batteries.After all these batteries are the same as in your phone or laptop. The batteries lose capacity over usage. Even Tesla only guarantees 80% over 8 years. In many cases the life of the batteries is much worse eg Nissan Leaf. The key seems to be the theramal management. So any recovered battery pack which is made of recycled batteries will have at least some degradation and maybe a lot of degradation. In addition if one cell goes out then the lot go out and once again the battery has to be repaired or replaced. It is a pretty blythe statement that replacement of batteries is cheaper than a new set as it is a "pig in a Poke" type problem. Regards PhilipA

Wonder if they provide a discount for supplying second hand product as new? Ethical? I think not!

[NavyDiver]

Wonder if they provide a discount for supplying second hand product as new? Ethical? I think not!

Depends if they work better once recycled? I had heard this before so found a science bases paper on it for you.

Noting a large amount of Australian batteries are Not yet in recycling systems [bighmmm]

Recycled Lithium-Ion Batteries Can Perform Better Than New OnesA novel method of recycling such batteries could help meet skyrocketing demand (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-ion-batteries-can-perform-better-than-new-ones/)

[NavyDiver]

its ok to try and justify an 80% recharge capacity in one hour as ok.....but what do you do during that hour? to even try to compare it to refuelling an ice vehicle is crazy....I mean would you stand there for an hour with a fuel nozzle in your hand?

Gav's question is valid, why do you really want an ev?
An hour? I go for a run of course [bigrolf]

A missed Gavs question sorry mate.

I do want a car that can tow, 4wd and not cost me $$$$$$$$$ for fuel and servicing. No way have I saved 30k yet [thumbsupbig] 8 year battery warranty should make that entirely possible [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Latest RACQ magazine has an article saying 96% of lead acid batteries is recyclable. Doesn't give a figure for lithium.

It also says the motoring organisations, such as RACQ, NRMA etc, have bought Chargefox and plan a major expansion of charge points.

Let's do some rough maths.

There are several $50,000 EVs around with many more coming, which is cheaper than a typical Hilux, Ranger or similar ute.
Let's say a person commutes 70km each way or 140km a day or 700kms in a 5 day week.
Let's say their vehicle uses 10 l/100kms, so that's 70 litres, at let's say $2 a litre is $140 pw on fuel is $7800 a year.

Now let's say the person spends $50k on an EV with a typical 300km range.
Each day they get home and recharge the vehicle, which is on about 50% of its 300km range, so it should recharge in an hour or less.
How much does 5 hours of recharging cost? If the sun is shining, effectively nothing. But just for the argument, let's say it costs $3 x 5 = $15.

So instead of paying $140 pw or $7800 a year, they are now paying $15pw or $780 a year.
The annual savings is $7800 - 780 = $7020. So the fuel savings alone would pay for the vehicle in about 7 years.
That doesn't include servicing savings, which for an EV should typically be about half, since its just oils, brakes and tyres.

These are all rounded averages of course, but even if you fiddle with them, for example saying fuel is cheaper or consumption is lower or charging costs less, when boiled down the EV still comes out way ahead.

[NavyDiver]

Latest RACQ magazine has an article saying 96% of lead acid batteries is recyclable. Doesn't give a figure for lithium.

It also says the motoring organisations, such as RACQ, NRMA etc, have bought Chargefox and plan a major expansion of charge points.

Let's do some rough maths.

There are several $50,000 EVs around with many more coming, which is cheaper than a typical Hilux, Ranger or similar ute.
Let's say a person commutes 70km each way or 140km a day or 700kms in a 5 day week.
Let's say their vehicle uses 10 l/100kms, so that's 70 litres, at let's say $2 a litre is $140 pw on fuel is $7800 a year.

Now let's say the person spends $50k on an EV with a typical 300km range.
Each day they get home and recharge the vehicle, which is on about 50% of its 300km range, so it should recharge in an hour or less.
How much does 5 hours of recharging cost? If the sun is shining, effectively nothing. But just for the argument, let's say it costs $3 x 5 = $15.

So instead of paying $140 pw or $7800 a year, they are now paying $15pw or $780 a year.
The annual savings is $7800 - 780 = $7020. So the fuel savings alone would pay for the vehicle in about 7 years.
That doesn't include servicing savings, which for an EV should typically be about half, since its just oils, brakes and tyres.

These are all rounded averages of course, but even if you fiddle with them, for example saying fuel is cheaper or consumption is lower or charging costs less, when boiled down the EV still comes out way ahead.

Could add SMUG MUG C02 free feeling as well Mick? Really I meant maintenance. Its is $$$$$$$$$$ cheaper. I looking at Fuel Cell maintenance now.

The Hydrogen Bus/ Trains and others running for over a decade now for some of them will help with that information soon.
Data is being done. Life spans are interesting

" 4.6 Electrolyzer Lifetime While there is some variability in the reported electolyzer lifetime, there is general agreement that current AE and PEM systems would have lifetimes of 75,000 and 60,000 hours respectively [5]. We project these lifetimes out to 2050 with a simple linear relationship up to 125,000 hours [5]. We also follow the International Energy Agency’s estimates of SOE lifetimes: 20,000 hours for current systems out to 87,5000 hours in 2050 [5]. Following Brynolf et al., once a electrolyzer requires replacement, those replacement costs are estimated to be 50% of the initial capital costs [11]"

Home based waffle or interesting re Hot water and electricity is in the UK via two companies plus about 300,000 gas to hydrogen to electricity/heating in Japan (https://www.chapmanplumbers.com/heating-services/fuel-cell-technology-vitovalor/) homes.

While it might not seem EV related I think FCEV or EV with a borrowed Fuel Cell Gen in the back will rock my world, tow the trailers and allow long distance travel in the next 5-10 years using that tech. A nice Professor in WA and a young person at home at UNI with access to all scientific papers is cool. While research is not retail products the rapid rate of change will make the copper wire home phone to clunky expensive mobile to very high tech cheap computers AKA Smart phones most carry now seem even slower than my long runs[thumbsupbig]

Being a first mover is expensive up front- Not arguing with that point at all.

Did anyone own a BRICK? It was in "1987, retailing at a massive $4,250" (https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/wholesaleconnect/category/technology/mobile-history-part-1.html) My cheap 5g is a few $$ only [bigwhistle]

https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/content/dam/tw/emporium/blogimages/brick.jpg

[johnp38]

Did anyone own a BRICK? It was in "1987, retailing at a massive $4,250" (https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/wholesaleconnect/category/technology/mobile-history-part-1.html) My cheap 5g is a few $$ only [bigwhistle]

https://www.telstrawholesale.com.au/content/dam/tw/emporium/blogimages/brick.jpg
Yep and by 1990 when I bought mine they were down to 1100 bucks, technology just gets cheaper very quickly then and now. And if I recall correctly it was 50 a month line rental plus calls on top. That was my first ever mobile and I was one of the very few escort agency drivers to have one in adelaide at the time, a lot safer all round. Jobs still came through on the pagers as we had no text messaging then.

Electric vehicles and their charging infrastructure will do the same in the next decade, a slow steady ramp up then suddenly a sharp rise and they're everywhere and ubiquitous.

I won't be replacing/disposing my disco 2 unless fuel becomes ridiculously expensive or it is legislated, but my 2018 Picanto will be replaced by an electric shopping/doctors trolley when it hits 15 yrs old for sure unless I can convert it to electric.

ICE vehicles are selling well and will be still available new in quantities of squillions all around the world for many years yet so a market for cleaner biofuels to keep them running is there as well as ICE to Electric drivetrain drop in changeover kits.

[ramblingboy42]

....as well as ICE to Electric drivetrain drop in changeover kits......quote

I havent seen anything on these.....I cant see how you can do a drivetrain drop-in but it's possible I guess.

EV's are going to make a lot of people happy over the next few years , but as you can see the coal mines/generators have become a "catch the hot potato" thing very suddenly because technology has suddenly smashed into it catching the big generators napping.

the same will happen with motor vehicle technology....ev's being nearly as old as ice vehicles , with better propulsion systems floating in the ethers.

we already suddenly see positive production of electric passenger aeroplanes who'd have ever thought that would happen?

when the dirty dozen or whatever you call those guys decide its time to make another motza , the real alternative powered vehicle will appear.

[4bee]

....as well as ICE to Electric drivetrain drop in changeover kits......quote

I havent seen anything on these.....I cant see how you can do a drivetrain drop-in but it's possible I guess.

EV's are going to make a lot of people happy over the next few years , but as you can see the coal mines/generators have become a "catch the hot potato" thing very suddenly because technology has suddenly smashed into it catching the big generators napping.

the same will happen with motor vehicle technology....ev's being nearly as old as ice vehicles , with better propulsion systems floating in the ethers.

we already suddenly see positive production of electric passenger aeroplanes who'd have ever thought that would happen?

when the dirty dozen or whatever you call those guys decide its time to make another motza , the real alternative powered vehicle will appear.


I heard recently that REX Aviation are investigating/trialing Batt Powered Aero engines.

Good luck with that Rex. A bloody long Extension Lead would be required.:Rolling:

[NavyDiver]

....as well as ICE to Electric drivetrain drop in changeover kits......quote

I havent seen anything on these.....I cant see how you can do a drivetrain drop-in but it's possible I guess.

EV's are going to make a lot of people happy over the next few years , but as you can see the coal mines/generators have become a "catch the hot potato" thing very suddenly because technology has suddenly smashed into it catching the big generators napping.

the same will happen with motor vehicle technology....ev's being nearly as old as ice vehicles , with better propulsion systems floating in the ethers.

we already suddenly see positive production of electric passenger aeroplanes who'd have ever thought that would happen?

when the dirty dozen or whatever you call those guys decide its time to make another motza , the real alternative powered vehicle will appear.

I think a drop in or drop on might be a lot easier for EV FCEV..... At Ritta servicing my Disco a week or so a go an as usual loved seeing the body of a RR or Disco way up high in the sky while engine, transmission and ... were all a refit delight[thumbsupbig]
Not that I would try it yet Instructions



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwEtKss83cU

Des the power lead for "First Practical Zero Emission Aviation Powertrain | USA & UK | ZeroAvia (https://www.zeroavia.com/)" is interesting[bigrolf] I do not have shares in that one!!![biggrin]

They offer a REFIT!

"We work with certified fixed-wing airframe models to retrofit and linefit, simplifying regulatory issues and reducing time to market"

"ZeroAvia’s powertrain repowers existing airframe models"

I do not fly thank fully as planes are expensive bits of kit :)

[101RRS]

I have no issues with the price of pure EVs, their range or their ability as a city comuter vehicle - the issue for me is their recharging times on long trips. For sure stop for lunch and get 20 mins worth of charge in to go an extra 50kms but to have to stop to recharge for a couple of hours, just does not work for me.

When I go to an EV it will also have to have to also be fitted with an engine to drive the vehicle when the battery runs out. Might be different when hydrogen cell infrastructure becomes mainstream.

Edit just saw an add on TV last night for the new Toyota Hydrogen Cell vehicle - so along with Hyundai I guess these two models are now available - the issue at the moment is refuelling as I think there are only a couple of hydrogen refuelling points available in Australia at the moment. Hopefully will rapidly change in the future.

[scarry]

There are several $50,000 EVs around with many more coming, which is cheaper than a typical Hilux, Ranger or similar ute.
Let's say a person commutes 70km each way or 140km a day or 700kms in a 5 day week.
Let's say their vehicle uses 10 l/100kms, so that's 70 litres, at let's say $2 a litre is $140 pw on fuel is $7800 a year.

Now let's say the person spends $50k on an EV with a typical 300km range.
Each day they get home and recharge the vehicle, which is on about 50% of its 300km range, so it should recharge in an hour or less.
How much does 5 hours of recharging cost? If the sun is shining, effectively nothing. But just for the argument, let's say it costs $3 x 5 = $15.

Dont get me wrong,Ev's are a great idea,for those that want one and suits their needs.For something like a small second car,they are probably perfect.

But lets be realistic.

A $50K EV is never going to be the same size as a HiLux,Ranger,or similar.Nor is it going to do the same sort of work,or be as convenient,for a Tradie or people that do a lot of camping,touring,or towing.Or used as a largish family run around.
So we are not comparing apples with apples.
A $50K Ev may be a small sedan,probably no where near as large as a Camry,Mazda 6,or Kluga.
It maybe the same sort of size as a Corola,Mazda 2 or a Kona,(which is an Ev).These little ICE cars use around 5 to 7l/100.Small Hydrids use less.
i dont know what they cost new but i cant imagine them costing much more than $35K,depending on model,etc.

On a home charger,it definitely is not going to charge in an hour or less.The fast charger will draw way to much current for a house mains.
To fast charge it will need to be charged on a charger somewhere that can handle the high power load.

[4bee]

I think a drop in or drop on might be a lot easier for EV FCEV..... At Ritta servicing my Disco a week or so a go an as usual loved seeing the body of a RR or Disco way up high in the sky while engine, transmission and ... were all a refit delight[thumbsupbig]
Not that I would try it yet Instructions



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwEtKss83cU

Des the power lead for "First Practical Zero Emission Aviation Powertrain | USA & UK | ZeroAvia (https://www.zeroavia.com/)" is interesting[bigrolf] I do not have shares in that one!!![biggrin]

They offer a REFIT!



A matter of interest just how long does it take them to remove said body & hook it back on again?

Changing a tyre on the ground would still be quicker.[smilebigeye]


"We work with certified fixed-wing airframe models to retrofit and linefit, simplifying regulatory issues and reducing time to market"

"ZeroAvia’s powertrain repowers existing airframe models"

I do not fly thank fully as planes are expensive bits of kit :)


WHAAAAAT! You mean the days/mornings I won't have to be awakened by the Screaming Jet Engines of the 0600 crowd leaving Ad Int which normally routes over our house to Mel & Syd. Such bliss.

[Homestar]

WHAAAAAT! You mean the days/mornings I won't have to be awakened by the Screaming Jet Engines @ of the 0600 crowd leaving Ad Int which normally routes over our house to Mel & Syd. Such bliss.

You know you’ve never waved once to me as I’m taking off from Adelaide - your place is the one with the roof right? 🤪

[4bee]

You know you’ve never waved once to me as I’m taking off from Adelaide - your place is the one with the roof right? 🤪

How very observant of you.[bighmmm]

Yep house with a red roof with solar panels, you can't miss us.[biggrin]

[Homestar]

Yep, thought it was that one. [emoji106]

[DiscoMick]

That's a hybrid. There are lots of them around right now.
I have no issues with the price of pure EVs, their range or their ability as a city comuter vehicle - the issue for me is their recharging times on long trips. For sure stop for lunch and get 20 mins worth of charge in to go an extra 50kms but to have to stop to recharge for a couple of hours, just does not work for me.

When I go to an EV it will also have to have to also be fitted with an engine to drive the vehicle when the battery runs out. Might be different when hydrogen cell infrastructure becomes mainstream.

Edit just saw an add on TV last night for the new Toyota Hydrogen Cell vehicle - so along with Hyundai I guess these two models are now available - the issue at the moment is refuelling as I think there are only a couple of hydrogen refuelling points available in Australia at the moment. Hopefully will rapidly change in the future.

[DiscoMick]

You buy the charger kit and connection upgrade with the vehicle for a couple of grand. We've got one already for welding.
Dont get me wrong,Ev's are a great idea,for those that want one and suits their needs.For something like a small second car,they are probably perfect.

But lets be realistic.

A $50K EV is never going to be the same size as a HiLux,Ranger,or similar.Nor is it going to do the same sort of work,or be as convenient,for a Tradie or people that do a lot of camping,touring,or towing.Or used as a largish family run around.
So we are not comparing apples with apples.
A $50K Ev may be a small sedan,probably no where near as large as a Camry,Mazda 6,or Kluga.
It maybe the same sort of size as a Corola,Mazda 2 or a Kona,(which is an Ev).These little ICE cars use around 5 to 7l/100.Small Hydrids use less.
i dont know what they cost new but i cant imagine them costing much more than $35K,depending on model,etc.

On a home charger,it definitely is not going to charge in an hour or less.The fast charger will draw way to much current for a house mains.
To fast charge it will need to be charged on a charger somewhere that can handle the high power load.

[101RRS]

That's a hybrid. There are lots of them around right now.

My understanding that a hybrid is a ICE vehicle that had electric assist to get it going but has virtually no range on its battery - eg a Prius and Camry and cannot be recharged. What you are talking about is a Plug in Hybrid (PHEV) - a different type of vehicle again.

[scarry]

What you are talking about is a Plug in Hybrid (PHEV) - a different type of vehicle again.

Which also has an ICE engine,with a small range from a battery that can be charged by plugging it in to recharge.

[scarry]

You buy the charger kit and connection upgrade with the vehicle for a couple of grand. We've got one already for welding.

For trickle charge,correct,but for fast charge,it wont do the job,in a domestic situation.

Unless you want upgrades to the mains,etc,etc.

[scarry]

One of the boys sent me this, this morning.[bighmmm][biggrin]

I suppose a whole new industry is going to pop up.
Give us a call when you are out of power[smilebigeye]


"I just drove past a Tesla on the side of the road with a little generator going 😂😂"

[Tombie]

Latest RACQ magazine has an article saying 96% of lead acid batteries is recyclable. Doesn't give a figure for lithium.

It also says the motoring organisations, such as RACQ, NRMA etc, have bought Chargefox and plan a major expansion of charge points.

Let's do some rough maths.

There are several $50,000 EVs around with many more coming, which is cheaper than a typical Hilux, Ranger or similar ute.
Let's say a person commutes 70km each way or 140km a day or 700kms in a 5 day week.
Let's say their vehicle uses 10 l/100kms, so that's 70 litres, at let's say $2 a litre is $140 pw on fuel is $7800 a year.

Now let's say the person spends $50k on an EV with a typical 300km range.
Each day they get home and recharge the vehicle, which is on about 50% of its 300km range, so it should recharge in an hour or less.
How much does 5 hours of recharging cost? If the sun is shining, effectively nothing. But just for the argument, let's say it costs $3 x 5 = $15.

So instead of paying $140 pw or $7800 a year, they are now paying $15pw or $780 a year.
The annual savings is $7800 - 780 = $7020. So the fuel savings alone would pay for the vehicle in about 7 years.
That doesn't include servicing savings, which for an EV should typically be about half, since its just oils, brakes and tyres.

These are all rounded averages of course, but even if you fiddle with them, for example saying fuel is cheaper or consumption is lower or charging costs less, when boiled down the EV still comes out way ahead.

Nice… I have some thoughts on this though.

In coming years the grid will require major upgrades to keep up with the demand - this will be pushed onto consumers so expect that $ figure to go up by a factor of 5-10 (in the Uk power bills are now £400)

There’s already talk (and I believe action) on charges to cover lost Fuel Excise - so add that on - that’ll be likely to be a kilometre based fee.

Maintenance is an interesting one, of the few EV owners here in town, one thing seems higher - perhaps Navy Diver can give his experience - the heavier than normal for class weight of the batteries etc is seemingly having an impact on tyre life.
One owner here tells me his EV is wearing tyres in about 2/3 the distance that his previous ICE vehicle (same make/model) would.

Range isn’t real either - so 300km is likely 170km on a hot summers day (or a freezing cold one). That becomes a margin call - and increases charge time by double.

I’ve run numbers on the longest range EV, even with the 8yr 80% figure - I cannot keep one for more than 3-4 years before it can no longer meet my distance requirements.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, ours has a separate line upgrade to the mains.
For trickle charge,correct,but for fast charge,it wont do the job,in a domestic situation.

Unless you want upgrades to the mains,etc,etc.

[scarry]

Maintenance is an interesting one, of the few EV owners here in town, one thing seems higher - perhaps Navy Diver can give his experience - the heavier than normal for class weight of the batteries etc is seemingly having an impact on tyre life.
One owner here tells me his EV is wearing tyres in about 2/3 the distance that his previous ICE vehicle (same make/model) would..

Yes my tyre guy said the same thing the other day,tyre life is very short,his comment was tyre companies will have to lift their game.

As I have said before,a mate has ordered a RRS 510E.It is PHEV,so only has a small battery,and petrol motor,but weighs something like 450 KG more than the equivalent Diesel model.

Another thing is when it is running on petrol,due to all the extra weight it will use a lot more fuel than the current petrol only model.

[4bee]

One of the boys sent me this, this morning.[bighmmm][biggrin]

I suppose a whole new industry is going to pop up.
Give us a call when you are out of power[smilebigeye]


"I just drove past a Tesla on the side of the road with a little generator going 😂😂"

Wasn't that the whole concept, in that one towed a trailer behind which was fitted with a Gennie?
One saved on emitting Pollution & buying fuel.
I suspect there was summat wrong with that idea. :Rolling::BigCry:

[scarry]

How very observant of you.[bighmmm]

Yep house with a red roof with solar panels, you can't miss us.[biggrin]

We noticed it as well, last time we flew in.

I am sure there was some old codjer with very few clothes on, sunbaking by the pool.[bighmmm][biggrin]

[scarry]

Wasn't that the whole concept, in that one towed a trailer behind which was fitted with a Gennie?
One saved on emitting Pollution & buying fuel.
I suspect there was summat wrong with that idea. :Rolling::BigCry:

Maybe part of the vehicle tool kit will be a small gennie?[bigrolf]

[4bee]

Maybe part of the vehicle tool kit will be a small gennie?[bigrolf]

Yep, instead of Jumper Leads.


An odd method exists to start MAZDAs & probably others as well, not like just chuck the leads on & away you go.


RAA geezer showed me what to do & in fact it won't start at all if you do that. It's quite weird.

[scarry]

Yep, instead of Jumper Lads.


An odd method exists to start MAZDAs & probably others as well, not like just chuck the leads on & away you go.


RAA geezer showed me what to do & in fact it won't start at all if you do that. It's quite weird.

Are you sure it wasn't a Land Rover?:Rolling:

[4bee]

Are you sure it wasn't a Land Rover?:Rolling:

Quite sure. The 2A was sitting next to the Maz & he couldn't but help compare the 1966 Technology to the 4 year old Maz.
It did look remarkably different to say the least.[bigrolf]



If you are unfamiliar with the "How to Start with a Semi- Flat Battery" sequence I'm happy to post up the sequence but I guess that anyone here who owns a late Model vehicle would/should be. Maybe? I have needed to do it twice.
It was because I drove Land Rovers or HOLDEN products. Oh & ToyMotas where you just heaved the Battery Cables out & used them.

[4bee]

We noticed it as well, last time we flew in.

I am sure there was some old codjer with very few clothes on, sunbaking by the pool.[bighmmm][biggrin]

That was next doors. We can't afford a Pool.:Thump::BigCry:

Flying in? You'd be in strife if that happened, Flight Path here is deffo Outbound only for large Jets. Lots of choppers & some Privates though, both ways down low.

[NavyDiver]

"It forecasts that within a few years commercial fleets and tradies will be able to save money by switching to EV utes and vans (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-11/electric-utes-are-coming-to-australia-can-they-win-over-tradies/101508750)"


The stories are funny and dubious until Solid state batteries come shortly. I agree with this claim "Added to this, EVs were significantly cheaper to run and service than ICE vehicles.
"We spend in the millions on diesel each year and close to the millions on repair and maintenance," he said.
"The expected reduction in our fuel costs is probably close to 50 per cent over a diesel vehicle."
"

I read about 2024 baby hummer EV (https://www.gmc.com/electric/hummer-ev)due next year with 350kwH battery pack. The Hummer news "The mystery has been solved! It has been confirmed the 2022 GMC Hummer EV caught by our spy at Sydney Airport earlier this week was brought over to be used in a new movie starring Ryan Gosling.
Click here (https://www.drive.com.au/news/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-in-sydney-for-ryan-gosling-film-the-fall-guy/) to learn about the Hummer’s role in the film.
The original story story continues unchanged below.
Wednesday 5 October 2022: A 2022 GMC Hummer EV has arrived on Australian soil, signalling the possibility of the electric pick-up being offered in our market."

Hype again! its for a movie not for sale

The new ute I mentioned is a "Chevrolet Silverado 2024: 640km range for new electric pick-up ute (https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/electric-vehicles/chevrolet-silverado-2024-640km-range-for-new-electric-pick-up-ute/)""


Solid state batteries are one key I think. NASA in the mix on that as well (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Solid-state-NASA-battery-beats-the-Model-Y-s-4680-pack-at-energy-density-by-stacking-all-cells-in-one-case.660594.0.html).

""Battery costs are roughly half the cost of the vehicle, and the cost of a battery pack should roughly halve by the end of the decade."The report predicts EVs will account for 55 per cent of new sales of light commercial vehicles (ie utes and vans) by 2030."

Rate of change and costs are getting clearer I think.

We can keep asking "are we there yet" of course [biggrin]

On the bummer side for EV, home or work
"Energy giant warns electricity prices could increase by 35 per cent next year (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-10/energy-giant-warns-electricity-prices-could-increase-by-35-per-c/101520782)"

[scarry]

On the bummer side for EV, home or work
"Energy giant warns electricity prices could increase by 35 per cent next year (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-10/energy-giant-warns-electricity-prices-could-increase-by-35-per-c/101520782)"

No surprise at all,and it will continue.

Those that go on about it coming down,even in the long run are dreaming.

[scarry]

This gives some good info as to how much power is actually needed to charge EVs.



Home Solar EV charging explained — Clean Energy Reviews (https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/solar-ev-charging)

[Tombie]

"It forecasts that within a few years commercial fleets and tradies will be able to save money by switching to EV utes and vans (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-11/electric-utes-are-coming-to-australia-can-they-win-over-tradies/101508750)"


The stories are funny and dubious until Solid state batteries come shortly. I agree with this claim "Added to this, EVs were significantly cheaper to run and service than ICE vehicles.
"We spend in the millions on diesel each year and close to the millions on repair and maintenance," he said.
"The expected reduction in our fuel costs is probably close to 50 per cent over a diesel vehicle."
"

I read about 2024 baby hummer EV (https://www.gmc.com/electric/hummer-ev)due next year with 350kwH battery pack. The Hummer news "The mystery has been solved! It has been confirmed the 2022 GMC Hummer EV caught by our spy at Sydney Airport earlier this week was brought over to be used in a new movie starring Ryan Gosling.
Click here (https://www.drive.com.au/news/2022-gmc-hummer-ev-in-sydney-for-ryan-gosling-film-the-fall-guy/) to learn about the Hummer’s role in the film.
The original story story continues unchanged below.
Wednesday 5 October 2022: A 2022 GMC Hummer EV has arrived on Australian soil, signalling the possibility of the electric pick-up being offered in our market."

Hype again! its for a movie not for sale

The new ute I mentioned is a "Chevrolet Silverado 2024: 640km range for new electric pick-up ute (https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/electric-vehicles/chevrolet-silverado-2024-640km-range-for-new-electric-pick-up-ute/)""


Solid state batteries are one key I think. NASA in the mix on that as well (https://www.notebookcheck.net/Solid-state-NASA-battery-beats-the-Model-Y-s-4680-pack-at-energy-density-by-stacking-all-cells-in-one-case.660594.0.html).

""Battery costs are roughly half the cost of the vehicle, and the cost of a battery pack should roughly halve by the end of the decade."The report predicts EVs will account for 55 per cent of new sales of light commercial vehicles (ie utes and vans) by 2030."

Rate of change and costs are getting clearer I think.

We can keep asking "are we there yet" of course [biggrin]

On the bummer side for EV, home or work
"Energy giant warns electricity prices could increase by 35 per cent next year (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-10/energy-giant-warns-electricity-prices-could-increase-by-35-per-c/101520782)"

Gee that’s great.

So the future has:
Significantly High(er) energy prices
Higher diesel prices
Lots of unemployment for mechanics

Yay (sarcasm)

[NavyDiver]

Gee that’s great.

So the future has:
Significantly High(er) energy prices
Higher diesel prices
Lots of unemployment for mechanics

Yay (sarcasm)

Audi/ruski collaboration making sarcasm turn to a bit of biting I think[bigwhistle]

Mean while at the petrol station they are introducing limits.

Only $10K allowed per fill now

181320

[Homestar]

Gee that’s great.

So the future has:
Significantly High(er) energy prices
Higher diesel prices
Lots of unemployment for mechanics

Yay (sarcasm)

Yay indeed.... But someway off yet as I know a lot of people that are now holding onto what they've got and will run them for many more year that they previously would have. This is exactly the opposite of what is trying to be achieved, and just the other day they had some muppet on the radio saying there are too many old cars on the road and they were lobbying the gubment to introduce legislation to curb this - well you can imagine that went down with the listeners like a turd in a lift...

And I'll take any Mechanics that are looking for work - we're about 3 short at the moment and they are unobtainium no matter how much money you wave at them or how good the conditions are (pretty bloody good here) but we do need a specific skill set - which it seems the rest of Australia wants as well...

[NavyDiver]

Power cost UK style. Might happen here of course

"The RAC says the price of recharging an average family-size car at public points has risen by 42 per cent (https://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/electric-car-drivers-hit-by-42-hike-in-price-of-public-chargers-b1028012.html) since the spring. On average, this cost is now more than £32, a whopping £9.60 higher than in May 2022.
The good news is there are various ways to minimise these day-to-day costs if you act smart about this."

While I am at the negative side- Bloody 12volt battery are a PITA

I have a charger /rejuvenation cycle to keep mine working

"There is no starter motor in an EV so the 12V battery never has to delivery high current or peak power as when starting an ICE vehicle. The things that cause a 12V lead acid battery to fail prematurely are load, heat, vibration and time."

"A large portion (approaching 50%) of lead acid batteries have diminished capacity or become unusable due to sulphation, and never reach their rated lifespan"

Issue is for all EV brands I think. If the 12 volt battery is shot the High Voltage battery can not be accessed for use!

Why do EVs have a 12 volt battery- All the normal stuff in you car is in EV and it is all 12 volt. The main battery is OFF when car is off.

Noticed mine was a bit off and fixed it quickly. A forum suggests other found out too late and have replaced the 12 volt battery

[JDNSW]

Suggestion for manufacturers -

While solar panels on an EV cannot have enough area to make a significant difference to the main battery, it would be simple and cheap to include a small solar panel to keep the 12v battery up. Unless parked in a dark garage it would not take a large area to cover the drain from systems always active.

(I have found that a 5W panel connected to my tractor has extended the battery life to near a decade rather than a year or two. It spends long periods unused.)

[goingbush]

This gives some good info as to how much power is actually needed to charge EVs.



Home Solar EV charging explained — Clean Energy Reviews (https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/solar-ev-charging)


my 5kw home solar produces more energy than I use & that includes charging the Landy . Even over the last few months with all the rain we are still in credit . I avoid using a lot of power during the day , as we get $0.80 per kwh feed in tariff , and Use the dryer, pool pump & charge Landy at night for $0.20 per kwh.

[NavyDiver]

Suggestion for manufacturers -

While solar panels on an EV cannot have enough area to make a significant difference to the main battery, it would be simple and cheap to include a small solar panel to keep the 12v battery up. Unless parked in a dark garage it would not take a large area to cover the drain from systems always active.

(I have found that a 5W panel connected to my tractor has extended the battery life to near a decade rather than a year or two. It spends long periods unused.)

That might be cheaper than this ?

Rolls-Royce Spectre Debuts As Brand's First Production EV With 260-Mile Range (https://www.motor1.com/news/616901/2023-rolls-royce-spectre-debut/)
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/KbnYmG/s3/2023-rolls-royce-spectre.webp

[cripesamighty]

Probably none of the EV utes and vans that are currently available or soon to be available, would suit many tradies I know. At the moment these EV's don't offer enough flexibility in payload/range/towing, where time = $$$. That goes especially for the guys whose 4WD work utes double as weekend playtoys or touring rigs. Time will tell though.

[NavyDiver]

Melb- Port Fairy- Ballarat- Avocca ( a little away towards Maryborough)- Wedding party fun then reverse- EV only

You might be relived to here My Disco is taking 7 people Melbourne Avocca ( a little away towards Maryborough).

No way my weekend is ruined [biggrin] No Boat of course but 2 VIP's Picked up and returned to Port Fairy are Both "Great and Grand" [thumbsupbig][biggrin][biggrin]

Have a great weekend all

PS I do need to stop at RACV Torquay and Ballarat for less than an hour for lunch/morning tea[bighmmm] My Landrover could do it in one to two tanks of $$$$$$ with out stopping- It will get back here on the full tank of $220 filled up yesterday[bawl]

[Homestar]

Genuine question James - has the price of a recharge gone up here in Vic at all since power prices started to move? Not trying to catch you out, but I have no idea what a charging station costs to use and if this is changing as regularly as what petrol prices do.

For a weekend away I quite like the idea of the stops as I’m not an ‘a’ to ‘b’ sort of person when time permits but most of my longer weekend travels are in our little motorhome these days - I stop every couple of hours when I’m driving that anyway and generally grab a coffee and wander around where I’ve stopped but there isn’t a battery big enough to get that around unfortunately, but maybe as I’m getting older I’m starting to chill more and half of me thinks I could almost make an EV work - entry cost is the biggest drawback for me at the moment and battery prices aren’t coming down any time soon with a massive shortfall of lithium continuing. We priced some new BESS units for work - the last ones we bought 6 months ago were $122K each - they are now $144K each - and lead time is mid 2024 currently. ☹️

[350RRC]

Genuine question James - has the price of a recharge gone up here in Vic at all since power prices started to move? Not trying to catch you out, but I have no idea what a charging station costs to use and if this is changing as regularly as what petrol prices do.

For a weekend away I quite like the idea of the stops as I’m not an ‘a’ to ‘b’ sort of person when time permits but most of my longer weekend travels are in our little motorhome these days - I stop every couple of hours when I’m driving that anyway and generally grab a coffee and wander around where I’ve stopped but there isn’t a battery big enough to get that around unfortunately, but maybe as I’m getting older I’m starting to chill more and half of me thinks I could almost make an EV work - entry cost is the biggest drawback for me at the moment and battery prices aren’t coming down any time soon with a massive shortfall of lithium continuing. We priced some new BESS units for work - the last ones we bought 6 months ago were $122K each - they are now $144K each - and lead time is mid 2024 currently. ☹️

Plenty of room on that van for solar panels. [biggrin]

Maybe one day soon someone will be able to coat the whole vehicle in them, like vinyl wrap. [biggrin]

cheers, DL

[4bee]

Audi/ruski collaboration making sarcasm turn to a bit of biting I think[bigwhistle]

Mean while at the petrol station they are introducing limits.

Only $10K allowed per fill now

181320

So that is about 1xJerrican?[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Genuine question James - has the price of a recharge gone up here in Vic at all since power prices started to move? Not trying to catch you out, but I have no idea what a charging station costs to use and if this is changing as regularly as what petrol prices do.

For a weekend away I quite like the idea of the stops as I’m not an ‘a’ to ‘b’ sort of person when time permits but most of my longer weekend travels are in our little motorhome these days - I stop every couple of hours when I’m driving that anyway and generally grab a coffee and wander around where I’ve stopped but there isn’t a battery big enough to get that around unfortunately, but maybe as I’m getting older I’m starting to chill more and half of me thinks I could almost make an EV work - entry cost is the biggest drawback for me at the moment and battery prices aren’t coming down any time soon with a massive shortfall of lithium continuing. We priced some new BESS units for work - the last ones we bought 6 months ago were $122K each - they are now $144K each - and lead time is mid 2024 currently. ☹️

Good question I asked at three places and No was the reply. That may change of course - User Pays is fine with me.

I did get grumpy in Colac as I was a bit short to get to the RACV fast one I was aiming for this afternoon, A FREE Tesla destination (read crap ) upto 7kWh was giving less than a wall plug. 3 Tesla only Fast chargers I cannot pay for were unused. I am asking if any government money was given for them! Tesla owners charge happily with me In Ballarat and in Torquay and other places. Another NON tesla person had to wait for me as the 2nd tesla destination charger was not working at all. tesla destination chargers are the very old and always slower than my home Charger that may be not locked to Tesla only.

It is more than frustrating to share other sites happily while Tesla Fast Charger are not being used!

Wonder if ACCC or similar might give them a kick? They have been forced to allow others to pay in other countries already.

2000 km done and dusted. I am stuffed.

Nealy tried a more direct path via Ararat but happily missed it. I think they the two there are slow 7kWh at best and IF they are as bad as the Colac one I would have spoilt my weekend.

The fuel bill for my Disco was well over the Electricity paid for FYI $16 Torquay, $12.97 +13.60 Ballarat One in Marybough was $3.62 and 4.23 Kids must have driven it a bit?

$20 to a helpful home *2 which is a 7kWh that gives 7kWh thankfully.

Portland Marathon Next week is next run There seems to be 4 Tesla 7kWh chargers so given my 4 ish hour foot slog I will take the MG again :)

Honestly anything less than 50kWh is really a waste of time unless your staying. Vic Country is NOT EV ready really. Next Gen batteries or my Hydrogen fetish will change that I think :) It seem $25 is the Portland rate unless I stay or have Dinner. Post Run Dinner is fine with me :)

[DiscoMick]

Here's a Melbourne company partnering with a UK company to convert Land Rovers and other vehicles to electric. Says they are booked up with orders until 2024.

Australian EV conversion startup merges with UK firm to turn classic cars electric | Electric vehicles | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/01/jaunt-motors-zero-ev-merger-fellten-to-convert-classic-cars-vehicles-electric)

[johnp38]

All good for the enthusiastic that can throw $100k hobby money around

But a $15k conversion a decade from now, if it ever happens, will have poor sods like me finding the money to convert to electric.

Until then or I can buy a used vehicle for 10 to 15 that doesn't need a new battery pack I will stick to fossil fuel, I live in my real world of well below 'average' australian income, which is in itself higher than the average of anyone working that I personally know.

[goingbush]

All good for the enthusiastic that can throw $100k hobby money around

But a $15k conversion a decade from now, if it ever happens, will have poor sods like me finding the money to convert to electric.

Until then or I can buy a used vehicle for 10 to 15 that doesn't need a new battery pack I will stick to fossil fuel, I live in my real world of well below 'average' australian income, which is in itself higher than the average of anyone working that I personally know.

Could easily do a DIY conversion on a Landy for $15K . and it will be a vehicle that appreciates.
The Jaunt 150k price is for a fully restored / re-engineered EV Landy with disc brakes & Electric Power Steering , pretty good value IMO

'Poor sods' spending 10 or 15k on a used vehicle is money down the drain, in 10 years it will be worth less than nothing, and the cycle continues.

[scarry]

Safety is a huge issue with those types of vehicles,particularly something like a Series vehicle, as many have a lot more power and a higher top speed than they were ever designed for.

It is a wonder the regulators in our nanny states havent been on to it.
They probably will after something happens.

For that sort of money,they definitely don't interest me.

[johnp38]

'Poor sods' spending 10 or 15k on a used vehicle is money down the drain, in 10 years it will be worth less than nothing, and the cycle continues.

I'm talking about being able to buy a used electric vehicle in a decades time for 10 -15 k not a used fossil fuel jalopy

[PhilipA]

BTW I saw a graph recently that shows that Lithium battery prices are now rising, so if you want either an EV or lithium anything get in now. Tesla has already lifted prices substantially.
Regards PhilipA

[goingbush]

BTW I saw a graph recently that shows that Lithium battery prices are now rising, so if you want either an EV or lithium anything get in now. Tesla has already lifted prices substantially.
Regards PhilipA

Where did you see that , all the graphs for lithium battery prices on a quick google search show a downward trend.

[PhilipA]

What is driving lithium prices in 2022 and beyond? | Benchmark (benchmarkminerals.com) (https://www.benchmarkminerals.com/membership/what-is-driving-lithium-prices-in-2022-and-beyond/)
Just google Lithium prices and you will see that they have increased 800%.

Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

2023 in Japan and likely in the USA via details at bottom


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9yQtd8VHgM&amp;t=361s



Toyota Battery Plant Under Construction in North CarolinaToyota Battery Mfg. North Carolina will have four production lines, each capable of delivering enough lithium-ion batteries for 200,000 vehicles – with plans to expand to at least six production lines for a total of up to 1.2 million vehicles per year. (2025??)

The automaker in 2021 announced a $1.29 billion investment in the battery plant now under construction in Liberty, NC, and said in August it was investing an additional $2.5 billion, bringing total employment to 2,100.
Link (https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/toyota-battery-plant-under-construction-north-carolina)


The Dozen of HUGE battery factories built now, under construction or in advances planning stages are being multiplied by billionaires who do not care about making more billions
OR by savvy investors[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

I suspect the latter[bigwhistle]

Phillips post on supply chain issues is valid of course. Interesting to note Tesla did not sign off take agreement "Tesla supply deal with Northern Territory mining company Core Lithium not going ahead after deadline passes (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-27/nt-core-lithium-tesla-deal-not-secured/101585794) "

Personally Graphite is a large part of the battery and a hydrogen byproduct with 3 tonnes of graphite to 1 tonne of Hydrogen seems very attractive IF proven.

On the Lithium front,
Aussies Pilbara Minerals, Core Lithium Ltd or Global Lithium
have not been off my watch lists. "Fantastic narratives are often useful in pumping up share prices in a sector where there is a great deal of hype. Often, buying based upon a fantastic narrative pushes up prices, which draws in those optimistic for quick gains, which pushes up prices, which draws in even more optimists, which…well you get the picture! (https://www.canstar.com.au/investor-hub/top-asx-lithium-stocks/)"

WA and NT will or already have some serious $$$ invested!

HYPE plus danger / warning in that I think! NOT investment advice!

The great news of Solid State by panasoinc and toyota is on top of Quantumscape

Other Metal which many want out of the picture is Cobalt (DRC issues)


"Cobalt, which has an ability to stabilize crystal structures, is an important material for achieving thermal stability. The type of cathode active material used by Panasonic--NCA*--requires less cobalt than the alternative--known as NCM**. Panasonic has progressively reduced the amount of cobalt in each battery to less than 5% through the use of alternative elements and surface treatment. (https://news.panasonic.com/global/stories/993)"


I think QS at least uses little or no Cobalt

[Narangga]

Ram 1500 Revolution BEV concept reveal delayed to January | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ram-1500-revolution-bev-concept-reveal-delayed-to-january)

..it’ll “push past” its competition in “areas trucks customers care about most” – range, towing, payload and charge time.

[NavyDiver]

Ram 1500 Revolution BEV concept reveal delayed to January | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ram-1500-revolution-bev-concept-reveal-delayed-to-january)

..it’ll “push past” its competition in “areas trucks customers care about most” – range, towing, payload and charge time.

Family has an ICE RAM now, a part broken took well over 6 months to get here for warranty replacement. I guess the same issue can bite most brands not well supported here.

[Narangga]

Family has an ICE RAM now, a part broken took well over 6 months to get here for warranty replacement. I guess the same issue can bite most brands not well supported here.

Perhaps their focus has been range, towing, payload and charge time and they've dropped the ball on spare parts.

[JDNSW]

Compared to less than seven days delivery for parts for my forty year old Landrover!

[PhilipA]

Family has an ICE RAM now, a part broken took well over 6 months to get here for warranty replacement. I guess the same issue can bite most brands not well supported here.
Rams are privately imported and distributed.
They are like Japanese "Grey imports" really.
If you want parts you should get in touch with a USA parts retailer.

About Us - Ram Trucks Australia | Ram Trucks Australia (https://www.ramtrucks.com.au/about/#:~:text=Ram%20Trucks%20Australia%20are%20the,Ram% 20Trucks%20in%20the%20world.)

regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Rams are privately imported and distributed.
They are like Japanese "Grey imports" really.
If you want parts you should get in touch with a USA parts retailer.

About Us - Ram Trucks Australia | Ram Trucks Australia (https://www.ramtrucks.com.au/about/#:~:text=Ram%20Trucks%20Australia%20are%20the,Ram% 20Trucks%20in%20the%20world.)

regards PhilipA

They knew it was possible to buy and ship from USA several months faster than waiting for the Australian (or US?) company here. I think its a RHD converter/engineering company with RAM here? As it was warranty the issue dragged on for far longer than reasonable in this now fixed case.

They are BIG beasts. The fuel costs of the ICE versions are not fun I assume! It is a well used work/tow truck in my relatives case.

The time line for RAM EV may be they are waiting for the Solid State Batteries. It looks to me Toyota has waited for that as well.

I am as always wondering if converting my Disco and refitting my short arsed MGev with solid state batteries will be possible? It has over 30,000 km on it now. 2nd service is due in another several thousand km. That's roughly 3300 liters of Diesel I have not paid for. I would not suggest it has been pain free with it often being a pain in the butt with few rapid charging places. That is changing quickly yet seems slow as well to this black duck.

A hydrogen fuel cell company in Canada has several large, medium and small fuel cell items now and more on the way which may be another option. The MAY BE is loud or long time frame here in the Slow country of course.

As pointed out by many how much more electricity needed is an issue. Mostly a timing issue with feast and famine in our nutty power sector.

"Soaring power production from households and businesses with rooftop solar panels has sent records tumbling across Australia, with output from fossil fuels falling to all-time lows.
Key points:



Output from rooftop solar has reached record-high levels in four states across Australia this spring
The generation from rooftop solar caused demand for electricity from the grid to fall to record lows
Experts say the trend is only likely accelerate, highlighting the need for major investments in the grid



In events described as unprecedented, " [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] link (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-02/australian-solar-records-tumble-as-coal-eclipsed/101606490)

If high level planning are "now" surprised to find sunny and windy days create lots solar and wind power we are all stuffed.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, there is a big difference between average and median incomes, because the high fliers distort the average. The median is much lower and a better measure.
All good for the enthusiastic that can throw $100k hobby money around

But a $15k conversion a decade from now, if it ever happens, will have poor sods like me finding the money to convert to electric.

Until then or I can buy a used vehicle for 10 to 15 that doesn't need a new battery pack I will stick to fossil fuel, I live in my real world of well below 'average' australian income, which is in itself higher than the average of anyone working that I personally know.

[Narangga]

New GMC Sierra EV is a 1064Nm super-ute, tows 4300kg - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/new-gmc-sierra-ev-is-a-1064nm-super-ute/)

[goingbush]

"Remarkable:" Volvo to sell electric only cars in Australia by 2026 (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/03/volvo-to-sell-electric-only-cars-in-australia-by-2026/)

[NavyDiver]

New GMC Sierra EV is a 1064Nm super-ute, tows 4300kg - EV Central (https://evcentral.com.au/new-gmc-sierra-ev-is-a-1064nm-super-ute/)

2024[bighmmm] waiting waiting and waiting[biggrin]

"General Motors hasn't specified the size of its battery pack, although it confirms an 800V electric architecture that allows for fast charging on 350kW units – although its actual peak charging speed has also not been confirmed. (800V models like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 will peak at around 230kW.) (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/2024-gmc-sierra-electric-pickup-revealed-yukon-imagined) "

Battery not specified and 2024 just may be Solid state. IF Not by 2024 Solid state batteries may double the numbers in a very nice way!

[4bee]

Safety is a huge issue with those types of vehicles,particularly something like a Series vehicle, as many have a lot more power and a higher top speed than they were ever designed for.

It is a wonder the regulators in our nanny states havent been on to it.
They probably will after something happens.

For that sort of money,they definitely don't interest me.


Get away, it's only a couple of AH Callouts.:Rolling:

[scarry]

Get away, it's only a couple of AH Callouts.:Rolling:


Shhh,don’t tell anyone[wink11]

[Homestar]

Where did you see that , all the graphs for lithium battery prices on a quick google search show a downward trend.

We buy around 1/2 million dollars worth of lithium batteries each year - the price has gone up around 10 to 20% in the last 12 months and lead times for some units are over 18 months now due to shortages in the industry. It’s ok if you’re buying one or 2 for you caravan etc but when you want a truck load of them it becomes difficult. We have 4 suppliers and they are all in the same boat. A $110K battery pack we bought 8 months ago is now $144K for the same thing.

Tesla Powerwalls have just had a 16% price rise as well.

[4bee]

Shhh,don’t tell anyone[wink11]



Oh roight, Mums the woid. They won't hear it from me.[bigrolf]


What are you like replacing Mazda Drivers side windows? Just busted the side window plus one house window when the rideon picked up some stones.
Trying to get on to some repairers that advertise 24/7 Yeah ballcocks.:bat:
Message banks etc & you go round & round in ever decreasing circles but you can't speak to a human. Well one I could, but next Friday is the earliest & that sounded a bit dodgy. 'er indoors ain't happy I can tell you.


Cest la vie.[bighmmm]


Update. Next doors will replace the Glass if he can get one, whilst loaning us a Holden Cruze auto.

So alls well that ends well. I think. Now depends on shipping from the Eastern States. Or not.

[Homestar]

A quick Google also turns up a heap of articles on lithium prices going up and why - here’s the first one I found - Lithium prices drive electric vehicle costs higher (https://www.axios.com/2022/09/21/lithium-prices-electric-vehicles-evs)

There’s some others behind paywalls specific to the mining industry as well.

[NavyDiver]

Declared odometer reading
30709km

Road-user charge:

Charging period (05/11/2021 – 30/06/2022)
237 days
Applicable rate
2.5 cent/km
Subtotal
$367.23

Charging period (01/07/2022 – 07/11/2022)
129 days
Applicable rate
2.6 cent/km
Subtotal
$209.48



Total road-user charge due: $576.71


A bit more than TWO tanks of fuel in my Disco I did not pay for [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

A Tax is a Tax of course.[bighmmm]

[goingbush]

<something wrong with formatting>
[TABLE="align: left"]
[TR]
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]$209.48




Hardly even a tank of fuel in my Disco [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

A Tax is a Tax of course.



My last RUC was about $100 , which negated the $100 "green incentive" discount on my Rego

[NavyDiver]

My last RUC was about $100 , which negated the $100 "green incentive" discount on my Rego

Excuse the formatting. It did not show until posted.

I really do not mind the RUC as I appreciate road cost money to maintain. Not much Green Incentive here. A lot of Green washing given we are still have the worst C02 emissions per capita in the entire world. No problem with USER pays. A tax on Emission from all C02 Emission being considered at COP27 (https://cop27.eg/)may wake up a few to the millions of dead people every year due directly to air pollution [bigwhistle]

Sorry My bad- COP27 is about climate change[biggrin] and a bit or a lot of Hydrogen (https://cop27.eg/assets/files/days/COP27%20INVESTING%20IN%20THE%20FUTURE%20OF%20ENERG Y-DOC-01-EGY-10-22-EN.pdf)

[Homestar]

Declared odometer reading
30709km

Road-user charge:

Charging period (05/11/2021 – 30/06/2022)
237 days
Applicable rate
2.5 cent/km
Subtotal
$367.23

Charging period (01/07/2022 – 07/11/2022)
129 days
Applicable rate
2.6 cent/km
Subtotal
$209.48



Total road-user charge due: $576.71


A bit more than TWO tanks of fuel in my Disco I did not pay for [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

A Tax is a Tax of course.[bighmmm]

Dumbest tax ever - I don't even own an EV and this makes me mad...

[PhilipA]

A lot of Green washing given we are still have the worst C02 emissions per capita in the entire world.

I hope you also realise that Australia has the highest level of CO2 absorption in the World and we are a nettCO2 sink.

In other words Australia does not emit any nett CO2 .
We are the solution not the problem.
Regards PhilipA

[JDNSW]

If you ignore coal exports!

[TonyC]

I hope you also realise that Australia has the highest level of CO2 absorption in the World and we are a nettCO2 sink.

In other words Australia does not emit any nett CO2 .
We are the solution not the problem.
Regards PhilipA

Can you point me to were that comes from?
I would like to see the numbers behind the claim.

Tony

[NavyDiver]

I suspect this is the start as NSW is not the only Government which at least partly funded Tesla charging places.

Tesla supercharger sites in some parts of Australia to allow non-Tesla EVs to charge there too.

Non-Tesla EVs to get access to government funded Tesla Supercharger sites (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/07/non-tesla-evs-to-get-access-to-government-funded-tesla-supercharger-sites/)

Asking for a break down of every grant or government funding in Victoria. Strongly suspect a little taxpayer funding for several sites which non tesla cannot use at present as well.
[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

It feels a little like being in the Officers Ward Room on HMAS Adelaide - Very cheeky for a former Lower deck type like me[bigrolf]

[PhilipA]

Can you point me to were that comes from?
I would like to see the numbers behind the claim.

Tony
Here is one article . Sorry we are not the best only second best after Argentina.
There is a World map reproduced above and elsewhere from I believe either NASA or NOAA that says the same.

The Revenge of the Climate Reparations – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/05/the-revenge-of-the-climate-reparations/)
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Here is one article . Sorry we are not the best only second best after Argentina.
There is a World map reproduced above and elsewhere from I believe either NASA or NOAA that says the same.

The Revenge of the Climate Reparations – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/05/the-revenge-of-the-climate-reparations/)
Regards PhilipA
"Willis Eschenbach is a regular speaker at the Heartland Institute‘s International Conference on Climate Change, where he is describedas a “carpenter and house builder” as well as an “amateur scientist.” Eschenbach has previously worked as a Construction Manager at Taunovo Bay Resort in Fiji, Sport Fishing guide"

My armature view is I would be happy to chat about fishing with Willis[bigwhistle]

[350RRC]

My last RUC was about $100 , which negated the $100 "green incentive" discount on my Rego

You're not paying excise on the alternative of fossil fuel to travel the same distance on public roads though.

Surely you're still ahead (?), especially if charging from your own solar.

DL

[PhilipA]

My armature view is I would be happy to chat about fishing with Willis
I think the word is "amateur" and I agree that is your view.
The data is from NOAA and NASA.
Are they amateurs also?
Only the interpretation is Willis's .

I am surprised that you do not know that Australia contributes zilch to CO2 increases .
Regards PhilipA BTW did you even read the article. I spent some time resourcing the data for another poster who clearly does not know the facts either.

[4bee]

I suspect this is the start as NSW is not the only Government which at least partly funded Tesla charging places.

Tesla supercharger sites in some parts of Australia to allow non-Tesla EVs to charge there too.

Non-Tesla EVs to get access to government funded Tesla Supercharger sites (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/07/non-tesla-evs-to-get-access-to-government-funded-tesla-supercharger-sites/)

Asking for a break down of every grant or government funding in Victoria. Strongly suspect a little taxpayer funding for several sites which non tesla cannot use at present as well.
[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

It feels a little like being in the Officers Ward Room on HMAS Adelaide - Very cheeky for a former Lower deck type like me[bigrolf]


Lower Deck you say? I can just picture you crouched under the overhead olde Oak Beams of the lower deck seated amongst the olde tattered canvas Hammocks smoking your olde clay pipe & tearing oakum apart in readiness for the next days duty of caulking the main deck.

Your headgear consists of a cloth or canvas Bandana wrapped around your scone, pirate style, & the conversation goes like ....."Aarrrr me 'earties, pass your old matey the Rum Cask, Spider me lad" spoken from the corner of the mouth as you spit tobacco juice at Spider lad. The dull overhead swinging oil lamp throws little light upon the forlorn scene but bounces mysterious shadows off the scarred features of those seated there.
Now, where is my copy of Treasure Island?:bangin::Rolling:

[NavyDiver]

I think the word is "amateur" and I agree that is your view.
The data is from NOAA and NASA.
Are they amateurs also?
Only the interpretation is Willis's .

I am surprised that you do not know that Australia contributes zilch to CO2 increases .
Regards PhilipA BTW did you even read the article. I spent some time resourcing the data for another poster who clearly does not know the facts either.

Mr Willis got a BIG write up on Popular Technologies (http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/10/who-is-willis-eschenbach.html) It would be defamatory at best if not true.

"He is not a "computer modeler", he is not an "engineer" and he is certainly not a "scientist" (despite all ridiculous claims (http://www.kpbs.org/news/2012/aug/14/how-hot-it-and-why/#c15297) to the contrary).

"A final question, one asked on Judith Curry's blog a year ago by a real scientist, Willis Eschenbach...""

Data from NOAA and NASA on our C02?

He has "IBUKI satellite CO2 data" datasets which to me look misinterpreted at best to deliberately biased selection of data?

Whole-Atmosphere Mean GHG concentration| Greenhouse gases Observing SATellite (nies.go.jp) (https://www.gosat.nies.go.jp/en/recentglobalghg.html)

Its not pretty!



Whole-atmosphere monthly mean CO2 concentration based on GOSAT observations
－ Recent data －


Monthly mean CO2
May 2018


406.9 ppm


CO2 trend (1)
May 2018


405.9 ppm


CO2 growth in the past one year (2)
May 2018 - May 2017


2.2 ppm/yr


Notes:
(1) CO2 trend is a value on the CO2 trend line derived by removing averaged seasonal fluctuations from the monthly CO2 time series. Please note that with a new addition of monthly mean CO2 data, seasonal fluctuations may vary. Accordingly, past CO2 trend values can also change slightly.

(2) CO2 growth refers to an increase of CO2 level on the trend line in the last one year.


Whole-atmosphere monthly mean CO2 concentration based on GOSAT observations
－ Recent data －


Monthly mean CO2
May 2018


406.9 ppm


CO2 trend (1)
May 2018


405.9 ppm


CO2 growth in the past one year (2)
May 2018 - May 2017


2.2 ppm/yr


Notes:
(1) CO2 trend is a value on the CO2 trend line derived by removing averaged seasonal fluctuations from the monthly CO2 time series. Please note that with a new addition of monthly mean CO2 data, seasonal fluctuations may vary. Accordingly, past CO2 trend values can also change slightly.

(2) CO2 growth refers to an increase of CO2 level on the trend line in the last one year.

[PhilipA]

I was thinking last night that once a poster starts personal attacks that they have lost the argument and are desperate.
The stuff you have posted is not specific by country or the shows levels as detailed by satellites.
The article I posted was not intended to discuss the rights or wrong of Willis but was an example of country specific data.
In any case what do you think the establishment thinks of WUWT which includes many climate scientists including Judith Curry who has been hounded out of her position because she is only a Luke warmest rather than a religious convert.
IMHO you have attacked the wrong part of the post. Please reference some data by country that disagrees not make attacks on the irrelevant part of the article.
regards PhilipA.

[goingbush]

You're not paying excise on the alternative of fossil fuel to travel the same distance on public roads though.

Surely you're still ahead (?), especially if charging from your own solar.

DL

100% corect . no complaints at all.

[Homestar]

You're not paying excise on the alternative of fossil fuel to travel the same distance on public roads though.

Surely you're still ahead (?), especially if charging from your own solar.

DL

I just think it’s ridiculous to on one hand encourage people to buy EV’s then smack them for it because they have. Yes, the fuel excise isn’t there but it’s crappy way to go about this - particularly this early on when there aren’t that many on the road in comparison and it’s just another hurdle to overcome with people psyches to get into the market.

[NavyDiver]

I was thinking last night that once a poster starts personal attacks that they have lost the argument and are desperate.
The stuff you have posted is not specific by country or the shows levels as detailed by satellites.
The article I posted was not intended to discuss the rights or wrong of Willis but was an example of country specific data.
In any case what do you think the establishment thinks of WUWT which includes many climate scientists including Judith Curry who has been hounded out of her position because she is only a Luke warmest rather than a religious convert.
IMHO you have attacked the wrong part of the post. Please reference some data by country that disagrees not make attacks on the irrelevant part of the article.
regards PhilipA.

Sorry if I missed your point Phillip. Not want to fight. C02 emissions are an issue that needs science and rational discussions. I did run Benfords law (Random number Distribution Theory) over a data set which showed to many red flags to count. Not posting as its not really any thing more than opinion and he is welcome to his.

Back on EV Super Chargers- A Tesla owner thinks I am a tosser for wanting to pay to use Tesla Super chargers. The taxpayer funding issue and not for public use is a issue I think.

I was just doing some number of swapping my silly MG for a Volvo which claims 450ish range. XC40 ev.

The MG Pull up and charge for an hour every two hours is not possible until next year at best in Victoria and in most places a long way from here! The EV is honestly going to my kids as soon as I can get a Disco replacement. Suspect holding off untill Solid state is here will be smarter especially IF Tesla lets me pay [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] I have no problem going for a one hour run around a few nice country towns! The 350kWh charges make it more 15-20 minutes sprints to 80% (Not in my MG!!!)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAedRJ_2BOc

[PhilipA]

Hmm I tend to agree with the idea that EVs are underpaying.

I did a back of envelope exercise that calculated that an average Km EV would have to pay about 5cents per Km , not 2.6 to pay an average level equivalent to an ICE car fuel excise duty.
So not only are EVs getting a free ride with electricity, they are under contributing to excise replacement.
So be it I guess. Government overreach and ignorance.

Considering that transport of all types cars, buses, trucks, trains, mining vehicles, ships, contribute only 8% of Australia's total CO2 emissions, one has to speculate that all these subsidies are going in the wrong direction and essentially contributing nothing to CO2 reduction. Much more effort should be expended on producing a reliable renewable grid at a reasonable cost equivalent to coal power which does not seem at present to be in the near future.
Instead we have money being taken from the poor and given to the rich.

Allied with this I just saw a US study which says that 20% of EV drivers trade their EV in for an ICE vehicle. I also saw an amusing video on You tube where a person interviewed people recharging their Teslas in the USA and he asked what their salary was. Not one was under USD100K.

Funnily enough I am not anti EV and if I had unlimited funds I would buy an EV for runaround duties if it had an equivalent range as an ICE vehicle (about 450-500KM for my Honda Jazz), it cost the same as an ICE vehicle, and it could be fully recharged in an equivalent time or even reasonable time, lets say 15-30 minutes. I wait with bated breath.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Funnily enough I am not anti EV and if I had unlimited funds I would buy an EV for runaround duties if it had an equivalent range as an ICE vehicle (about 450-500KM for my Honda Jazz), it cost the same as an ICE vehicle, and it could be fully recharged in an equivalent time or even reasonable time, lets say 15-30 minutes. I wait with bated breath.
Regards PhilipA

This is you waiting for this to happen...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/alternate-energies/181780d1667871244-ev-general-discussion-coffin1.jpg

181780

[goingbush]

Funnily enough I am not anti EV and if I had unlimited funds I would buy an EV for runaround duties if it had an equivalent range as an ICE vehicle (about 450-500KM for my Honda Jazz), it cost the same as an ICE vehicle, and it could be fully recharged in an equivalent time or even reasonable time, lets say 15-30 minutes. I wait with bated breath.
Regards PhilipA


If they had a 450-500km range then why do you need to charge in 15-30 min. plug it in at home and let it charge overnight.

Realistically how often does anybody drive 450-500km in one shot (unless on holidays) , if your daily commute is 50-100km your paying for & carting around 250extra kg of batteries that you rarely , if ever going to use .

Buy an electric as a local runabout / commuter & keep ICE for Long distance . Problem Solved

My EV Landy has a Range of about 80-100km I daily drive it & rarely need to charge any more than every 5-6 days .
We also have 4 x ICE cars, I normally probably drive one of them once a month for an out of town appointment or to go to Aldi etc , honestly cant remember last time I bought fuel, maybe 6 months ago. The Iveco still has one full tank , hate to think how much diesel will cost next time I need to fuel up.

[Homestar]

If they had a 450-500km range then why do you need to charge in 15-30 min. plug it in at home and let it charge overnight.

Realistically how often does anybody drive 450-500km in one shot (unless on holidays) , if your daily commute is 50-100km your paying for & carting around 250extra kg of batteries that you rarely , if ever going to use .

Buy an electric as a local runabout / commuter & keep ICE for Long distance . Problem Solved

My EV Landy has a Range of about 80-100km I daily drive it & rarely need to charge any more than every 5-6 days .
We also have 4 x ICE cars, I normally probably drive one of them once a month for an out of town appointment or to go to Aldi etc , honestly cant remember last time I bought fuel, maybe 6 months ago. The Iveco still has one full tank , hate to think how much diesel will cost next time I need to fuel up.

Because a LOT of people can’t charge at home - most of the inner city for a start - I’m in the burbs but also wouldn’t be able to as the lead would need to cross a footpath - we can’t all keep cars in the garage or driveway or want to uproot out entire existence to be able to do so. If I look at my street about half of the vehicles get parked on the road with no way to charge them. This alone is a massive hurdle to entry for many. It’s just not that simple.

I did 1300KM last weekend and there was only one charging station along my entire route - and it was for Teslas, not the great unwashed - but plenty of service stations - in and out in 5 minutes tops at the ONE stop I needed for the whole trip. I would have had to add an extra 200 plus KM and hours to my trip to do it in an EV. I wanted to see specific sights on my travels not waste half a day sitting around waiting to go the next few hundred KM - I wouldn’t have got to see half the things I wanted to in an EV.

You also make it sound like everyone has so much spare cash they can just buy an EV as a second car - I’m not sure if you keep up with the news but a lot of people are doing it tough at the moment - spending 50% more on their next car isn’t high on their list of priorities. So we all need to go buy a car that only suits part of the time and has to sit in or next to the garage so the weekend holiday car/ute sits out in the weather when it really should be the other way around. EV prices are heading up as well so no end in sight to an ‘affordable’ EV - still a pipe dream of the industry.

So is that enough of a reason? I, and many like me just can’t make an EV work as they are now - pretty simple really. [emoji4]

[4bee]

Because a LOT of people can’t charge at home - most of the inner city for a start - I’m in the burbs but also wouldn’t be able to as the lead would need to cross a footpath - we can’t all keep cars in the garage or driveway or want to uproot out entire existence to be able to do so. If I look at my street about half of the vehicles get parked on the road with no way to charge them. This alone is a massive hurdle to entry for many. It’s just not that simple.

I did 1300KM last weekend and there was only one charging station along my entire route - and it was for Teslas, not the great unwashed - but plenty of service stations - in and out in 5 minutes tops at the ONE stop I needed for the whole trip. I would have had to add an extra 200 plus KM and hours to my trip to do it in an EV. I wanted to see specific sights on my travels not waste half a day sitting around waiting to go the next few hundred KM - I wouldn’t have got to see half the things I wanted to in an EV.

You also make it sound like everyone has so much spare cash they can just buy an EV as a second car - I’m not sure if you keep up with the news but a lot of people are doing it tough at the moment - spending 50% more on their next car isn’t high on their list of priorities. So we all need to go buy a car that only suits part of the time and has to sit in or next to the garage so the weekend holiday car/ute sits out in the weather when it really should be the other way around. EV prices are heading up as well so no end in sight to an ‘affordable’ EV - still a pipe dream of the industry.

So is that enough of a reason? I, and many like me just can’t make an EV work as they are now - pretty simple really. [emoji4]

I may have got this wrong but I'm sure I read about the use of WiFi to charge in those over the footpath scenarios.

Dunno.[bighmmm][bigrolf]

Wireless Charging For Electric Vehicles: How It'&#39;'s Done (https://www.carandbike.com/news/wireless-charging-of-electric-vehicles-2773288)

[Homestar]

I may have got this wrong but I'm sure I read about the use of WiFi to charge in those over the footpath scenarios.

Dunno.[bighmmm][bigrolf]

Wireless Charging For Electric Vehicles: How It'&#39;'s Done (https://www.carandbike.com/news/wireless-charging-of-electric-vehicles-2773288)

Yeah - nah… 🤣

[PhilipA]

If they had a 450-500km range then why do you need to charge in 15-30 min. plug it in at home and let it charge overnight

Because my wife plays golf at various clubs around NSW and a few times a year wants to do say 300-400Km to and from the clubs.
My son lives in Kellyville which is about 220Km return from Avoca, and the M1 is notorious for accidents causing halts for up to 2 hours regularly and maybe 4 hours occasionally.
I would hate to be caught in a traffic jam at 35-40C for 2 hours with a lesser range than 450KM running aircon flat out.
Also a car with certified 450KM range may do that empty on a coolish day but add a couple of passengers and something in the boot on a very hot day is completely different.
Regards PhilipA

[350RRC]

I just think it’s ridiculous to on one hand encourage people to buy EV’s then smack them for it because they have. Yes, the fuel excise isn’t there but it’s crappy way to go about this - particularly this early on when there aren’t that many on the road in comparison and it’s just another hurdle to overcome with people psyches to get into the market.

Well................excise was put on LPG for the same kinda RUC, even though the Feds were actively encouraging petrol to LP conversions via a subsidy.

cheers, DL

[JDNSW]

The key difference is that excise (whether on petrol, diesel, LPG or alcohol or tobacco) is a Federal tax that does not go to roads (goes into consolidated revenue), and the RUC is a new State tax that is specific to EVs. And has to be seen as a money grab by the state "these people are avoiding spending money on fuel, and can afford an EV, so clearly have money to spend, let's get some of it".

The commonality is that both taxes are conceived as taxes on "luxuries" that are imposed on the wealthy on the basis that they can afford it. Of course, it is not only the wealthy that pay these, and in fact almost any tax that is worthwhile will affect most people whether directly or indirectly.

Up to now road costs have been recovered from motorists via a fixed annual charge by the state government, in NSW I think it is called a "Motor Vehicle tax" (which strangely applies to trailers as well even though they are not a motor vehicle). Some pundits see a usage charge based on mileage as a better system - but the major issue with it is that it is much more complex to collect and much more likely to gamed. And probably not justified for cars, as most road damage is from heavy vehicles - road impact rises roughly as the square of axle weight.

[PhilipA]

And imagine the outcry in outer Sydney when their $120 per week tolls turn into $150 to include a road user charge.
I confidently predict that no government would be game to do it.
Regards PhilipA

[JDNSW]

The only reason governments are introducing the RUC is that it only affects a tiny minority on introduction, but is guaranteed to grow substantially without enough voters noticing before it becomes "established practice".

[NavyDiver]

Radar RD6 Electric Pickup Truck From Geely

Radar RD6 electric ute on the cards for Australia
A surprising pathway has opened up that could bring Geely’s new electric ute Down Under. And there’s potential for Lynk & Co to follow (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/radar-rd6-electric-ute-australia)



Delaying my test drive of a temporary MG replacement Thats a Volvo c40 ev available for immediate pick up. We have had a chat about a rusting issue with a "LDV eT60 https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/-ldv-et60-to-become-australia-s-first-electric-ute"


"Radar Auto RD6" started sales in China 9 Nov so not going to be here any time soon. Volvo considering the gig is interesting "Volvo Australia (https://www.whichcar.com.au/volvo) has emerged as a potential candidate to import the Chinese ute in an arrangement that would double the number of electric dual-cabs available Down Under"

A video of it is odd. It shows a charge port which is not CCS which is required to have fast charging!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1zQswDDDI4

[Arapiles]

Rams are privately imported and distributed.
They are like Japanese "Grey imports" really.
If you want parts you should get in touch with a USA parts retailer.

About Us - Ram Trucks Australia | Ram Trucks Australia (https://www.ramtrucks.com.au/about/#:~:text=Ram%20Trucks%20Australia%20are%20the,Ram% 20Trucks%20in%20the%20world.)

regards PhilipA

Not really, they're factory supported as the blurb makes clear - they get vehicles directly from the US factory and convert them to RHD in a workshop that also does all the other big US utes being imported at present. Grey imports aren't supported by the relevant manufactuerer, quite the opposite usually.

[PhilipA]

Not really, they're factory supported as the blurb makes clear - they get vehicles directly from the US factory and convert them to RHD in a workshop that also does all the other big US utes being imported at present. Grey imports aren't supported by the relevant manufactuerer, quite the opposite usually.


Arapiles

So who stocks the spare parts?
Spare part supply is one of the most expensive overheads of distributing vehicles in Australia.
AFAIR even Ford subcontracted it to Caterpillar several years ago.
The three months or whatever wait on parts quoted by the OP would suggest that inadequate parts supply is held in Australia.
In BMW we had a VOR category (vehicle off road) where parts were airfreighted in if the vehicle was stuck.
It would seem that is not the case here.
I can recall I once ordered a fan shroud for my Porsche 924 turbo and it was here from Germany in a few days.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

So who stocks the spare parts?
Spare part supply is one of the most expensive overheads of distributing vehicles in Australia.
AFAIR even Ford subcontracted it to Caterpillar several years ago.
The three months or whatever wait on parts quoted by the OP would suggest that inadequate parts supply is held in Australia.
In BMW we had a VOR category (vehicle off road) where parts were airfreighted in if the vehicle was stuck.
It would seem that is not the case here.
I can recall I once ordered a fan shroud for my Porsche 924 turbo and it was here from Germany in a few days.
Regards PhilipA

Its a small world IF things are not disturbed [bigwhistle]

"With 0 to 100 km/h (62mph) in 6.20 seconds, a maximum top speed of 155 mph (250 km/h), a curb weight of 2471 lbs (1121 kgs), the 924 Carrera Turbo GTS has a turbocharged Inline 4 cylinder engine, Petrol motor (https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Porsche/16771/Porsche-924-Carrera-Turbo-GTS.html#:~:text=Porsche%20924%20Carrera%20Turbo%2 0GTS%20Specs%20%20,K-Jet%20fuel%20inj.%20%2012%20more%20rows%20)."

Very Nice car Phillip.

You beat my current ev by 2 seconds if you floor it "ZS EV will accelerate from 0-100km/h in 8.2 seconds" My wife's is not to be messed with at 5.8 ish and if the other specked up was used its 3.8 which beats all of the motorcycles I have had which I thought where very FAST.


Issues with supply are a question needing thought. My horrible but loved Lada ute was repaired with a few bits not from Russia which happily fit it[biggrin] Oddly I am now looking closely at a Norwegian outboard motor for 100km plus offshore tuna fishing. My current 115hp motor is not selling at all well despite being very well maintained and in micky mouse condition[bighmmm] Battery is still the issue holding that option up! the Motor is on its way.

An American version is several times the price! Odd really. I could just make boat an inboard and make it all myself- Not safe for me or the distance I want for offshore without an engineer or two so not happening in my blue water trips!

I case you're wondering Boat Motor is Join our team now - Chief Commercial Officer - Recruitment (https://www.evoy.no/c)
The cool bit I see is power from ICE now or Wet cell Battery, Lithium, Solid state or fuel cell well all will make my boat move. Proof and safe is needed. The Quiet is very much looked forward to as the current smelly ICE is loud plus.

IF geerly ute BEV beats Landrover FCEV to Australia I will be"sadly happy" to get another almost short range (towing) BEV

Some of above depends on $$$$$$ invested of course. Happily, very confident and I do have a few people to hand over my current drive to over the next year or two[thumbsupbig]

[Saitch]

Can you have an auxiliary (fridge/winch) battery in an EV? How would a winch recovery affect the main vehicle battery, without an auxiliary? If you could fit an auxiliary and use it for the winch, how would you increase revs while winching?.

[NavyDiver]

That has been asked a lot. Yesterday I was running listening Bill Gates on a pod cast mention USA needs 3 times its current total power use.

How much is that? "As of February 2022, America has more than 1.2 million megawatts of generation capacity (https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwis14TO96n7AhUU2DgGHYxADYgQFnoECAgQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.publicpower.org%2Fresource%2 Famericas-electricity-generating-capacity&usg=AOvVaw2urW4EWjVCmibefMPtnJ8k)"

I suspect that is made up of using Electricity for everything removing methane gas from industry, home heating and hot water as well as transport.

If that is correct Australia may if similar aims are assumed would be 3 times about "In 2020-21 total electricity generation in Australia was nearly steady at around 266 TWh (956 PJ), the highest total generation on record for Australia. COVID-19 affected sectoral usage and time of demand. (https://www.energy.gov.au/data/electricity-generation)"

Gates was also very dismissive or the minute hyped up battery storage. Currently US has "At the end of 2021, the United States had 4,605 megawatts (MW) of operational utility-scale battery storage power capacity (https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi7qr7i-Kn7AhWT4nMBHQEcA_0QFnoECAgQAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftodayinenergy%2Fde tail.php%3Fid%3D51798&usg=AOvVaw27RWj-W7iG_8SIJTMPWe9X)"

Gates and SMR Nuclear terra power (https://www.terrapower.com/)belongs in another thread[bigrolf]

So the answer to 'Do We have Enough Power' is No we do not.

Plans to expand are not on the Governments drawing boards at all. Its all about removing coal at present[bigwhistle]


How much C02 free power will needed? Every bit of wind, solar, hydro and about 81% more than 2021 level to just "Renewables contributed 29% of total electricity generation in 2021" and then add 300% more than that again. That's a whooping 798 TWH or 2868PJ!

My thought is that is not possible in our very lucky country, with out all C02 Free options being used.


Weekends long runs can be productive in more ways than one [biggrin]

[scarry]

So the answer to 'Do We have Enough Power' is No we do not.

Even Blind Freddy knew that.[smilebigeye]

And those that believed all the promises of cheaper power,by some politicians over the last few months and during the election campaign are dreaming as well.
They either didnt know what they were talking about or were blatantly telling porkies.No surprise there i suppose.

Just back from a couple of weeks R & R,did around 2100Km,no way in the world that trip could have been done in an EV of any type,available anywhere in the world.

[NavyDiver]

https://youtu.be/kEr_wE0uiDU

I want a STIG test [biggrin]

[4bee]

https://youtu.be/kEr_wE0uiDU

I want a STIG test [biggrin]

Is a STIG Test the same as a normal Covid Test but you get the results back a lot quicker? [biggrin]

[Arapiles]

Even Blind Freddy knew that.[smilebigeye]

And those that believed all the promises of cheaper power,by some politicians over the last few months and during the election campaign are dreaming as well.
They either didnt know what they were talking about or were blatantly telling porkies.No surprise there i suppose.

Just back from a couple of weeks R & R,did around 2100Km,no way in the world that trip could have been done in an EV of any type,available anywhere in the world.



This one could - it has a 1500km range:


J-Spec Imports (https://www.j-spec.com.au/lineup/Nissan/Note/e-Power_HE12/id-D17)


NB, it runs off a battery so it's an EV but it carries an ICE to recharge when needed - the ICE doesn't run the wheels.

[RANDLOVER]

This one could - it has a 1500km range:


J-Spec Imports (https://www.j-spec.com.au/lineup/Nissan/Note/e-Power_HE12/id-D17)


NB, it runs off a battery so it's an EV but it carries an ICE to recharge when needed - the ICE doesn't run the wheels.


That has been asked a lot. Yesterday I was running listening Bill Gates on a pod cast mention USA needs 3 times its current total power use......

You both raise interesting solutions to the question, [B]How much more power is needed if we all drove a EV?

I saw an interesting proposal yesterday saying that we shouldn't be totally committed to 100% renewable just yet, as it would be very expensive as you do need 3x the load in renewables for 100% reliability. This made me recall my power factor correction days, and it was always worth correcting to between 0.95 and 0.98, but not to 1.0 or parity, as the last little bit was not financially viable.

[RANDLOVER]

Because my wife plays golf at various clubs around NSW and a few times a year wants to do say 300-400Km to and from the clubs...........
Regards PhilipA

For info, Tesla only shows 7 golf clubs in Aus that have their chargers. Tesla Destination Charging in australia | Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/chargers/australia)

[4bee]

This one could - it has a 1500km range:


J-Spec Imports (https://www.j-spec.com.au/lineup/Nissan/Note/e-Power_HE12/id-D17)


NB, it runs off a battery so it's an EV but it carries an ICE to recharge when needed - the ICE doesn't run the wheels.


That is like Paul Scarry suggesting the EV's tool kit includes a small ICE Generator. Tongue in cheek I hasten to add, or was it? [bigrolf]


Oh how oi did Larf.:Rolling:

[scarry]

This one could - it has a 1500km range:


J-Spec Imports (https://www.j-spec.com.au/lineup/Nissan/Note/e-Power_HE12/id-D17)


NB, it runs off a battery so it's an EV but it carries an ICE to recharge when needed - the ICE doesn't run the wheels.

Range maybe fine,say 1000Km,but throw in the Engle,and there wouldnt be much room for the camping gear,although i could leave SWMBO behind,which would kinda, sort of, half sort the issue[bighmmm][biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

You both raise interesting solutions to the question, How much more power is needed if we all drove a EV?

I saw an interesting proposal yesterday saying that we shouldn't be totally committed to 100% renewable just yet, as it would be very expensive as you do need 3x the load in renewables for 100% reliability. This made me recall my power factor correction days, and it was always worth correcting to between 0.95 and 0.98, but not to 1.0 or parity, as the last little bit was not financially viable.

My thought is we need power, we need reliable, clean and economical at scale and at smaller scales to suite. C02 free is a term I prefer to renewable. As much as I rubbish CCS carbon capture and storage IF and a big IF it can work economically and at the huge scale needed I am fine with that- I doubt it will ever happen!!


The significant Cost to not have that is not worth thinking about.

The options are very clear, the waffle is very very loud and frequently distorted by vested interests such as gas, oil and coal sectors.

A view by many in Morwell Vic that Coal and Timber are in need of urgent removal V some pushing to continue to pollute the area is fascinating. Many there seem well aware of the charge needed. Some clearly disagree or try and exploit it politically.

My hydrogen investment may fail. Suspect it will be bigger than Ben hur myself. My nuclear investments seem assured just not here in Australia yet despite much of the amazing technology at our universities and Lucas Heights .

For a interesting view on silly walks check out what a $8 Billion $ 50 year old stuff up made for a museum and film set (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUVZbBBHrI4&t=1s)[biggrin] "Zwentendorf Nuclear Power Plant, in Austria, was ready to go: it just needed starting up. But that never happened, and forty years later, it still sits mothballed. Here's why. Thanks to all the EVN team: you can find information on tours (in German) here: http://www.zwentendorf.com/ (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbGRWU3hUTjBqVV9xcEJnMG1kc1BTVS 1aTzJKd3xBQ3Jtc0tuMndwQkhTblNON0ZmTHV6X3ZLbHdWajRf YmI3VGJ2YmtaRzdMTC1sT2haY21ZUkFka2xNYkJqamd0SFpTa2 dYSFBwZFc4NF8xeDdadjMxb0l5aXJBUmhFeUFOX3ROZTdCVjNv WHE0azBQdzFsM29NTQ&q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zwentendorf.com%2F&v=WUVZbBBHrI4) - and about EVN here: https://www.evn.at/EVN-Group/Energie- (https://www.youtube.com/redirect?event=video_description&redir_token=QUFFLUhqbk9xTWtZM29VUmgzXzJmTzZjNXg4WS 1HbGFoUXxBQ3Jtc0trdnJBZFRsc3RBVlB6VnJwOEpDLTZwZk1w dEVpWUN3NUlvZW9pTjZqWlJOWjBsTkVnUk41VTNMeFhlTE9OMz hDVk9sLTBkaWVOLWtLZ1prY25LS1ctT2JXLXlObkdZejh3UGVi ZTlZTHFOMUszYUs1WQ&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.evn.at%2FEVN-Group%2FEnergie-Zukunft%2FEVN-Fuhrungsangebot%2FZwentendorf.aspx&v=WUVZbBBHrI4)"

Denham WA Hydrogen (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-14/green-hydrogen-to-help-power-wa-town-in-renewable-energy-trial/101648728) is expensive yet cheaper that the diesel Gen sets. Denham had a wind power 40 years ago! It saved a lot of fuel. If the new Hydrogen saves "It could cut the town's use of diesel by 140,000 litres a year" the billions of litres of diesel saved already if fine with us all. The Wind was not enough and batteries could and in my view will not be cost effective at scale even in smaller micro grids like Denham. It could be done- Should it is an important question. [biggrin]

Debate and opinions are imported. If the Health costs to the Gippsland cominuities was viewed you might be able to see a HUGE cost already (https://content.health.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/migrated/files/collections/data/h/hsle102---pdf.pdf)? Look at Latrobe! Several factors including pollution from our coal fired power is very clearly shown!

rant over sorry. Hope you like some of it or forgive me for the bits you think silly. Off to the pics page . I got a ripper I think (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/244754-interesting-odd-funny-pics-ii-post3170377.html#post3170377)

[PhilipA]

I can recall that it was announced with great fanfare about 8-10 years ago that Coral bay was now wind power driven .
When I did research I found tha they still had 12 diesel generators that backed up the wind.
The interesting thing about it was that they had several mini flywheels that balanced the frequency of the power from the wind farms and smoothed the transmission to the diesels.
I don't know what has happened to the flywheel idea as there are many old mine pits that enormous flywheels could be built into to act as batteries.
An idea that has gone out of vogue, but you never know it may resurface. Switzerland used to have a bus fleet that ran on flywheels at one stage, and airport no break gen sets used to have flywheels to cover the gap between power failure and diesel start up.
Not sexy I guess.
Regards PhilipA

[Arapiles]

That is like Paul Scarry suggesting the EV's tool kit includes a small ICE Generator. Tongue in cheek I hasten to add, or was it? [bigrolf]


Oh how oi did Larf.:Rolling:


Well, if it solely runs off a battery then it's an EV - it just happens to carry it's own generator instead of having to recharge off mains power. Same system as the Holden Volt.

[PerthDisco]

Long but well worth a watch

EVs & climate change deception. We&#39;re trashing the benefit | Auto Expert John Cadogan - YouTube (https://youtu.be/Crwz8rw9wDI)

[Narangga]

Volvo CEO: Price parity between electric and combustion vehicles by 2025 | CarExpert (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/volvo-ceo-price-parity-between-electric-and-combustion-vehicles-by-2025)

[Xtreme]

An American View but an interesting read none the less.

Depending how and when you count, Japan's Toyota is the world's largest
automaker. According to Wheels, Toyota and Volkswagen vie for the title of
the world's largest, with each taking the crown from the other as the
market moves. That's including Volkswagen's inherent advantage of sporting
12 brands versus Toyota's four. Audi, Lamborghini, Porsche, Bugatti, and
Bentley are included in the Volkswagen brand family.


GM, America's largest automaker, is about half Toyota's size thanks to its
2009 bankruptcy and restructuring. Toyota is actually a major car
manufacturer in the United States; in 2016 it made about 81% of the cars it
sold in the U.S. right here in its nearly half a dozen American plants. If
you're driving a Tundra, RAV4, Camry, or Corolla it was probably
American-made in a red state. Toyota was among the first to introduce
gas-electric hybrid cars into the market, with the Prius twenty years ago.
It hasn't been afraid to change the car game.

All of this is to point out that Toyota understands both the car market and
the infrastructure that supports it perhaps better than any other
manufacturer on the planet. It hasn't grown its footprint through
acquisitions, as Volkswagen has, and it hasn't undergone bankruptcy and
bailout as GM has. Toyota has grown by building reliable cars for decades.

When Toyota offers an opinion on the car market, it's probably worth
listening to. This week, Toyota reiterated an opinion it has offered
before. That opinion is straightforward: The world is not yet ready to
support a fully electric auto fleet.

Toyota's head of energy and environmental research Robert Wimmer testified
before the Senate this week, and said: "If we are to make dramatic progress
in electrification, it will require overcoming tremendous challenges,
including refueling infrastructure, battery availability, consumer
acceptance, and affordability.”

Wimmer's remarks come on the heels of GM's announcement that it will phase
out all gas internal combustion engines (ICE) by 2035. Other manufacturers,
including Mini, have followed suit with similar announcements.

Tellingly, both Toyota and Honda have so far declined to make any such
promises. Honda is the world's largest engine manufacturer when you take
its boat, motorcycle, lawnmower, and other engines it makes outside the
auto market into account. Honda competes in those markets with Briggs &
Stratton and the increased electrification of lawnmowers, weed trimmers,
and the like.

Wimmer noted that while manufacturers have announced ambitious goals, just
2% of the world's cars are electric at this point. For price, range,
infrastructure, affordability, and other reasons, buyers continue to choose
ICE over electric, and that's even when electric engines are often
subsidized with tax breaks to bring price tags down.

The scale of the switch hasn't even been introduced into the conversation
in any systematic way yet. According to Finances Online, there are 289.5
million cars just on U.S. roads as of 2021. About 98 percent of them are
gas-powered. Toyota's RAV4 took the top spot for purchases in the U.S.
market in 2019, with Honda's CR-V in second. GM's top seller, the Chevy
Equinox, comes in at #4 behind the Nissan Rogue. This is in the U.S.
market, mind. GM only has one entry in the top 15 in the U.S. Toyota and
Honda dominate, with a handful each in the top 15.

Toyota warns that the grid and infrastructure simply aren't there to
support the electrification of the private car fleet. A 2017 U.S.
government study found that we would need about 8,500 strategically-placed
charge stations to support a fleet of just 7 million electric cars. That's
about six times the current number of electric cars but no one is talking
about supporting just 7 million cars. We should be talking about powering
about 300 million within the next 20 years, if all manufacturers follow GM
and stop making ICE cars.

Simply put, we are gonna need a bigger energy boat to deal with connecting
all those cars to the power grids, a WHOLE LOT bigger.

But instead of building a bigger boat, we may be shrinking the boat we have
now. The power outages in California and Texas — the largest U.S. states by
population and by car ownership — exposed issues with powering needs even
at current usage levels. Increasing usage of wind and solar, neither of
which can be throttled to meet demand, and both of which prove unreliable
in crisis, has driven some coal and natural gas generators offline Wind
simply runs counter to needs — it generates too much power when we tend not
to need it, and generates too little when we need more. The storage
capacity to account for this doesn't exist yet.

We will need much more generation capacity to power about 300 million cars
if we're all going to be forced to drive electric cars. Whether we're
charging them at home or charging them on the road, we will be charging
them frequently. Every gas station you see on the roadside today will have
to be wired to charge electric cars, and charge speeds will have to be
greatly increased. Current technology enables charges in "as little as 30
minutes," according to Kelly Blue Book. That best-case-scenario fast
charging cannot be done on home power. It uses direct current and
specialized systems. Charging at home on alternating current can take a few
hours to overnight to fill the battery, and will increase the home power
bill. That power, like all electricity in the United States, comes from
generators using natural gas, petroleum, coal, nuclear, wind, solar, or
hydroelectric power according to the U.S. Energy Information
Administration. I left out biomass because, despite Austin, Texas'
experiment with purchasing a biomass plant to help power the city, biomass
is proving to be irrelevant in the grand energy scheme thus far. Austin
didn't even turn on its biomass plant during the recent freeze.

Half an hour is an unacceptably long time to spend at an electron pump.
It's about 5 to 10 times longer than a current trip to the gas pump tends
to take when pumps can push 4 to 5 gallons into your tank per minute.
That's for consumer cars, not big rigs that have much larger tanks. Imagine
the lines that would form at the pump, every day, all the time, if a single
charge time isn't reduced by 70 to 80 percent. We can expect improvements,
but those won't come without cost. Nothing does. There is no free lunch.
Electrifying the auto fleet will require a massive overhaul of the power
grid and an enormous increase in power generation. Elon Musk recently said
we might need double the amount of power we're currently generating if we
go electric. He's not saying this from a position of opposing electric
cars. His Tesla dominates that market and he presumably wants to sell even
more of them.

Toyota has publicly warned about this twice, while its smaller rival GM is
pushing to go electric. GM may be virtue signaling to win favor with those
in power in California and Washington and in the media. Toyota's addressing
reality and its record is evidence that it deserves to be heard.

Toyota isn't saying none of this can be done, by the way. It's just saying
that so far, the conversation isn't anywhere near serious enough to get
things done.

YOU CAN IGNORE REALITY, BUT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE CONSEQUENCES
OF IGNORING REALITY.

You know if the current power grid cannot handle a night of -20 degrees
without rolling blackouts. How in the hell are we ever going to plug 25
million electric cars in over-night without causing the grid to crash.

You know there are three kinds of men in this world: There are the ones
that learn by reading. There is the few who learn by observation, and then
the rest of them who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for
themselves.

[JDNSW]

I know that is not what is meant - but there will not be 25 million cars overnight. Even if ICE vehicles stop being sold by 2030 (pretty unlikely) it is unlikely that even half the fleet would be electric ten years later. I expect grid power to grow a demand grows. Just how green it is may be another matter.......

[Narangga]

My thought is we need power, we need reliable, clean and economical at scale and at smaller scales to suite. C02 free is a term I prefer to renewable. As much as I rubbish CCS carbon capture and storage IF and a big IF it can work economically and at the huge scale needed I am fine with that- I doubt it will ever happen!!


My hydrogen investment may fail.

Denham Hydrogen Demonstration Plant – HyResource (https://research.csiro.au/hyresource/denham-hydrogen-demonstration-plant/)

[NavyDiver]

Denham Hydrogen Demonstration Plant – HyResource (https://research.csiro.au/hyresource/denham-hydrogen-demonstration-plant/)

I Love Shark Bay- Lived in Denham for not nearly long enough! A bit further south the Hydrogen plant almost read at Woodsman Point signed a deal with Mitsui Group. "It is one of the largest keiretsu in Japan and one of the largest corporate groups in the world."

Deal is over Graphite development "Under the MOU, Hazer and Mitsui have agreed to conduct an initial marketing survey of applications of Hazer’s low emissions graphite in the steel making and chemicals industries, utilising Mitsui’s global network. This MOU is a result of an extensive period of technology review and market assessment conducted by Mitsu (https://hazergroup.com.au/announcements/)i."
Its non exclusive so EV Batteries perhaps?

Denham is a demonstration plant- Bespoke and expensive and not suitable for everywhere. The Model will suit a lot of places I think when cost reductions I see as highly likely in this sector soon. Like Battery so called Giga sized factories Hydrogen fuel cells and Hydrogen electrolysis are following the mass production Price reduction cost curve.

Tata and Cummins announcement today (https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/11/14/cummins-inc-and-tata-motors-sign-memorandum-understanding-accelerate) on joint development for Mobile Hydrogen Fuel cells has some possible impact on Landrover [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

So much happening my head is spinning.

ON EV only. My Mgs Side mirror was not folding in - Took it back and it was fixed in a hour or two- reset and testing software not hardware. 30,000. I was reminded its due for its 2nd service at 40,000 km [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] That did put a smile on my dial!

I wonder if I will have new tires before it gets its 2nd service? We often chuckle about the sealed for life gear boxes on newer Landrovers. Not sure if I will need to hack the MG like I did to the Discos gear box to change the oil- Doubt it!

[Narangga]

So much happening my head is spinning.

ON EV only. My Mgs Side mirror was not folding in - Took it back and it was fixed in a hour or two- reset and testing software not hardware. 30,000. I was reminded its due for its 2nd service at 40,000 km [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] That did put a smile on my dial!

I wonder if I will have new tires before it gets its 2nd service? We often chuckle about the sealed for life gear boxes on newer Landrovers. Not sure if I will need to hack the MG like I did to the Discos gear box to change the oil- Doubt it!

[bigrolf]

[scarry]

Interesting article explaining why some are not following the sheep with full EV production,and its up to date.



Why Toyota – the world'''s largest automaker – isn'''t all-in on EVs (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/13/why-toyota-the-worlds-largest-automaker-isnt-all-in-on-evs.html?fbclid=IwAR25fHPak15BauT3eS5n5xE6f_9OJZcf gez3Kso7PiPViURDlgsQPlXx93k)

[Narangga]

Maybe these:

Oil giant BP launches EV charging brand, plans 600 stations across Australia (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/16/oil-giant-bp-launches-ev-charging-brand-plans-600-stations-across-australia/)

Kempower to deliver more than 50 rapid and ultra-rapid DC chargers to South Australia (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/10/kempower-to-deliver-more-than-50-ultra-rapid-dc-chargers-to-south-australia/)

give new meaning to this:

"Hey Charger" 1970s Chrysler car advert - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50BJ9dTBGBw) [bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

Maybe these:

Oil giant BP launches EV charging brand, plans 600 stations across Australia (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/16/oil-giant-bp-launches-ev-charging-brand-plans-600-stations-across-australia/)

Kempower to deliver more than 50 rapid and ultra-rapid DC chargers to South Australia (https://thedriven.io/2022/11/10/kempower-to-deliver-more-than-50-ultra-rapid-dc-chargers-to-south-australia/)

give new meaning to this:

"Hey Charger" 1970s Chrysler car advert - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50BJ9dTBGBw) [bigwhistle]

Drive: BP Pulse electric-car chargers open in Australia.
https://www.drive.com.au/news/bp-pulse-ev-chargers-open-in-australia/
(https://www.drive.com.au/news/bp-pulse-ev-chargers-open-in-australia/)"BP Pulse has installed fast charge points at BP Bayside at Brighton East in Melbourne. Sites at Diamond Creek in Victoria and Caboolture in Queensland have also opened to the public. The oil company added they were selecting locations at “key metropolitan and regional BP retail locations along Australia’s east coast”, where drivers can also get food and drinks.

The company relies on locally manufactured hardware from Tritium, building on a deal in April this year. BP, at the time, reportedly (https://www.electrive.com/2022/04/19/bp-orders-a-thousand-tritium-fast-chargers/) placed an initial order with Tritium for almost 1,000 fast charging stations for the UK, Australian and New Zealand markets."

Price in $AUD? Suspect it will be 40-60cents per kWh. Need a " bp pulse app" Just 500 downloads in Australia - 501 now

It states Prices are listed at the Charge point! that suggest viable pricing which may be a who/how the power is sourced. A charge place on the Hume has a hundred odd solar panels and batteries. Noticed the BP Pulse sms came from the same number as ChargeFox. Not an issue just interesting.


One here is 14 km north of me at Diamond Creek. I would be much happier if it was 200km away as I do not need a local charge point. Note a lot of taxis and delivery drivers starting to move to EV so suspect that's why BP is likely to be more city Centric of course. Diamond Creek park run was on my to do list[biggrin]



The Driven: Kempower to deliver more than 50 rapid and ultra-rapid DC chargers to South Australia.
(https://www.drive.com.au/news/bp-pulse-ev-chargers-open-in-australia/)https://thedriven.io/2022/11/10/kempower-to-deliver-more-than-50-ultra-rapid-dc-chargers-to-south-australia/

South Australia seems to be moving quickly with Chargers! The announcements re Victoria Fast Chargers are as usual Waiting Waiting and Waiting.

[B]A few years away Look at me The Driven: BYD starts testing of new Land Rover-style electric off-road SUV.
https://thedriven.io/2022/11/16/byd-starts-testing-of-new-land-rover-style-electric-off-road-suv/

It looks like my DISCO!

[Narangga]

Ampol also announced something similar. Like the RAA rollout - at least they are beginning to be rolled out. Middy's Electrical installed one at their Darwin store a year or two ago. They only charge what it cost them (currently $0.2737 / kWh).

The BYD looks more like the current Defender shape to me.

[scarry]

A bit of a reality check about how much power these things will actually use,and no doubt when not charging they will be on the road continually

Hydrogen fuel cell is probably a much better option..


Tesla Semis Will Need More Electricity Than A Small Town To Charge | CarBuzz (https://car.bz/uqtWr12i?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Deliver.it%20RSS%20Feed%20%7C%20CarBu zz&fbclid=IwAR2QPQLFStxbzsyHh6bKbLPhhd-aBs9nbkxUFA5Lm7mlR7yhZ-qxgoPgIPA)

[Narangga]

A bit of a reality check about how much power these things will actually use,and no doubt when not charging they will be on the road continually

Hydrogen fuel cell is probably a much better option..


Tesla Semis Will Need More Electricity Than A Small Town To Charge | CarBuzz (https://car.bz/uqtWr12i?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Deliver.it%20RSS%20Feed%20%7C%20CarBu zz&fbclid=IwAR2QPQLFStxbzsyHh6bKbLPhhd-aBs9nbkxUFA5Lm7mlR7yhZ-qxgoPgIPA)

Or possibly something like this:

Sydney to Brisbane for $525 in electric converted prime mover (https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2021/04/26/sydney-to-brisbane-for-525-in-electric-converted-prime-mover/)

[PhilipA]

These test vehicles will be on the Pacific Highway from later this year.
I have seen nothing further about this.
Are there test vehicles on the M1?

Regards PhilipA

[Narangga]

I have seen nothing further about this.
Are there test vehicles on the M1?

Regards PhilipA

Apparently there was an ADR issue.

Janus Electric trucks given go-ahead to start commercial trials (https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2022/10/02/janus-electric-trucks-given-go-ahead-to-start-commercial-trials/)

[PhilipA]

Apparently there was an ADR issue.

Janus Electric trucks given go-ahead to start commercial trials (https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2022/10/02/janus-electric-trucks-given-go-ahead-to-start-commercial-trials/)

Does this extra axle weight on single wheel steering axles mean that the axle loads increase and so increase damage to the road surface?

If so they should be charged for that.
Regards PhilipA

[Graeme]

Oh no, they're electric vehicles!

Wider tyres would spread the extra weight.

[4bee]

I Love Shark Bay- Lived in Denham for not nearly long enough! A bit further south the Hydrogen plant almost read at Woodsman Point signed a deal with Mitsui Group. "It is one of the largest keiretsu in Japan and one of the largest corporate groups in the world."

Deal is over Graphite development "Under the MOU, Hazer and Mitsui have agreed to conduct an initial marketing survey of applications of Hazer’s low emissions graphite in the steel making and chemicals industries, utilising Mitsui’s global network. This MOU is a result of an extensive period of technology review and market assessment conducted by Mitsu (https://hazergroup.com.au/announcements/)i."
Its non exclusive so EV Batteries perhaps?

Denham is a demonstration plant- Bespoke and expensive and not suitable for everywhere. The Model will suit a lot of places I think when cost reductions I see as highly likely in this sector soon. Like Battery so called Giga sized factories Hydrogen fuel cells and Hydrogen electrolysis are following the mass production Price reduction cost curve.

Tata and Cummins announcement today (https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/11/14/cummins-inc-and-tata-motors-sign-memorandum-understanding-accelerate) on joint development for Mobile Hydrogen Fuel cells has some possible impact on Landrover [thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

So much happening my head is spinning.

ON EV only. My Mgs Side mirror was not folding in - Took it back and it was fixed in a hour or two- reset and testing software not hardware. 30,000. I was reminded its due for its 2nd service at 40,000 km [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] That did put a smile on my dial!

I wonder if I will have new tires before it gets its 2nd service? We often chuckle about the sealed for life gear boxes on newer Landrovers. Not sure if I will need to hack the MG like I did to the Discos gear box to change the oil- Doubt it!



So much happening my head is spinning.



You need to see a Doctor, that can't be roight.:wallbash::BigCry:

[NavyDiver]

No FBT rulz Looks like EV and hybrid get a little cheaper for everyone and a lot cheaper if you can Salary Sacrifice.

The Hybrid inclusion forced to get the EV rules in is a little like the EU C02 free Nuclear and Gas in the EU Green energy taxonomy " EU Taxonomy Regulation outlines the classification system for what are considered environmentally sustainable economic activities, "

Here at least the Hybrid inclusion is sunseted legally at 2025!

"The Albanese Labor Government has secured the support of the Australian Greens for its electric vehicle (EV) incentives bill, though not without a couple of amendments.
The Greens and the Government have agreed to the following amendments to the Treasury Laws Amendment (Electric Car Discount) Bill:


Sunsetting support for plug-in hybrids on April 1, 2025
Prioritising electric vehicles in the Australian Government’s fleet procurement policy by removing plug-in hybrids except in “exceptional circumstances” Link (https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/ev-discount-bill-set-to-pass-with-anti-phev-amendments)

...the ATO will issue guidance on when household charging technology can be included within fringe benefits tax-exempt vehicle packages (FBT again)"


With dozens of third party helpers with salary sacrificed car leasing I suspect most business will very be approachable as it helps with staff retention as well![thumbsupbig]

[PhilipA]

dooH niboR robbing the poor to pay the rich.
great Labor principle.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

dooH niboR robbing the poor to pay the rich.
great Labor principle.
Regards PhilipA

Two of my receptionist are considering it now I think having more new efficient cars cycling into the second hand markets is good for lower income types as well.

FBT exemptions and the $85K limit stop me buying a ev Porsche[biggrin] Just kidding- not a chance I would!
Porsche electric motor for modern drive technology. - Porsche AG (https://www.porsche.com/international/aboutporsche/e-performance/models/)
I do know some one who has ordered one of the ev Taycan. 2.8seconds to 100kph. Bucket seat required for that[biggrin] Fast take off on my bikes with helmet on required very good neck muscles[thumbsupbig] a new "[B]Honda CBR1000RR-R SP 0-60 mph in 3.13 seconds" Mine old things were just a bit slower.

My sad thought is the Land Rover Hydrogen due in a year or two will be priced over the limit as well.[bawl]

[PhilipA]

The only unique problem with EVs is that once they come out of lease at 5 years let's say, the chances of battery failure on cheap EVs is greatly increased with huge risk to say pensioners who would perhaps buy one. The cost of a new battery would devastate a low income person. Where a Honda Jazz for example would be expected to last over 200KK or 10 years without major problems that exceed say $2000 over its life.

Look at the history of Nissan Leaf where even relatively recent ones have much reduced range and many battery failures.

It is too early to know the incidence on MG EV's although I think you yourself have had a pretty poor experience with the range not being as advertised even when new so how will it be in 5 years?
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Apparently there was an ADR issue.

Janus Electric trucks given go-ahead to start commercial trials (https://bigrigs.com.au/index.php/2022/10/02/janus-electric-trucks-given-go-ahead-to-start-commercial-trials/)

As well as a BS issue. The claimed distance of 400KM with a 600KWH battery works for a load of around 12 tonnes all in - so the truck and trailer before you stick anything on it. Even with just a 10 tonne load my calculations show a range of 240KM for the 600KWH pack. Same as Tesla's claims are BS as well when you work out some half decent loads.

[ramblingboy42]

I'm not sure who is really going to cash in on the most on the EV surge.

the average mugwump is being led to believe that if everybody drives EV's then some sort of green salvation will happen to the planet.

that is just sheer and pure bull**** perpetrated by the contributors to EV production.

remember from basic school science....energy is neither created nor destroyed.....the ICE car makes it's energy under its bonnet and dumps out it's exhaust....the EV makes it's energy from factories and electricity generating sources and still dumps it's waste from chimneys into the atmosphere.

the manufacturing footprint is massive and really no greener , just shifted sideways , to be seen from a different view.